Japanese attack museum over atomic bomber (Enola Gay)

[UpInArms]

http://www.scotlandonsunday.com/international.cfm?id=1342562003

JAPANESE anti-nuclear protesters have called on the US government to include details of the terrible aftermath of the 1945 attacks on Hiroshima at an exhibition that is to include the Enola Gay.

They claim the display of the B-29 bomber, which dropped the bomb that killed 66,000 people and injured 69,000 others, is a glorification of the nuclear age.

<snip>

The atomic bomb - nicknamed Little Boy - exploded above Hiroshima at 8.16am on August 6, 1945.

The Japan Confederation of A-Bomb and H-Bomb Sufferers has called for details about the number of deaths and photographs of the damage caused to Hiroshima by the bomb to be included in the exhibition, but has been rebuffed.

...more...

I believe that the details of this plane's mission and what it accomplished should be posted prominently at its display - otherwise this plane should not be used in a display at all - it is not "an example of a bomber" it is the plane that dropped "the bomb".

[number6]

1. as they should ... include ...

"JAPANESE anti-nuclear protesters have called on the US government to include details of the terrible aftermath of the 1945 attacks on Hiroshima at an exhibition that is to include the Enola Gay."

[Jonnycat26]

2. Agree, and disagree....

While I agree that details of the bomber's mission should be posted along with the bomber, I disagree and feel that this bomber can be used as "an example" of the class. How many B-29s are left? Not that many I would guess. Unlike the B-17, the B-29 seems to have not fared as well thru the years.

I'm a history major by education, a programmer by profession. I am not, and generally dislike, revisionist historians. Dropping the bomb was ugly, but it was something we had to do. Was the alternative, sending hundreds of thousands of our men to their deaths in an invasion of mainland Japan, worth it?

Now, don't read anything into that last paragraph. I do not support the war in Iraq. I just dislike the knee jerk reactions that "the bomb in WWII" seems to provoke. It's a much more complex issue than most people realize.

-j

[bpilgrim]

4. we could of accepted japan's 1 condition to surrender

before we dropped them instead of waiting until after.

peace

[Jonnycat26]

9. Revisionist...

You're taking the revisionist line here. While there were some in the Japanese government who were willing to accept a conditional surrender, the people in control of the military (in effect, in control of the country) had no desire to surrender in any way.

[bpilgrim]

12. informed

japan did not surrender until their 1 condition was met. (keeping the institution of emperor)

japan was a defeated nation looking to surrender when we nuked their cities filled with innocent civilians, men womem and children, without warning, TWICE... against the advice of all military leaders in theater at the time.

those are facts.

peace

[Jonnycat26]

14. Funny...

Funny...

If you really want to be "informed", I suggest you pick up a book and read. I highly recommend "Quartered Safe Out Here" if you want to know how the average soldier felt about the bombing.

But you won't, will you? You'll never know that the soldiers in the book would have willingly died rather than see innocents die in the bombing, but they ultimately felt the bombings were justified based on the atrocious nature of the japanese behaviour during the war.

And below, you go on to compare the actions of the japanese with the current administration. Like I said above, in no way do I approve of what we're doing in Iraq. Similarly in no way do I approve of what the japanese did in WWII.

[bpilgrim]

18. you find the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians funny?

then you condenscendingly tell me to read 1 book on the topic. :crazy:

let's stick to the facts as we know them and back them up with some documentation - links - and confine our discussion to the main issue, OUR decision to NUKE a defeated nations cities filled with innocent civilians... TWICE.

ok

peace

[Muddleoftheroad]

35. I find this endless debate useless and annoying

But we have done it all before.

For those who feel like it, here is a thread where both sides are covered and some of the frivolous defense of Japan is proven to be just that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=337703

[bpilgrim]

41. then why do you continue to post

in that thread many usefull links are provided to back up my assertions while folks on the other side of the debate provide no links just old tired propaganda that we know today to be false.

for a starter check out this link...
"THE DECISION TO USE THE ATOMIC BOMB"
http://www.doug-long.com/debate.htm

It has some of the most up-to-date information concerning this issue by a well respected historian.

peace

[Muddleoftheroad]

58. For the same reason that we fought the war

Because someone has to stop the things that are wrong in this world. Your posts on this topic have to be balanced out with reality.

[coralrf]

45. You are very very wrong..

that is not revisionism that is fantasy. We warned them. We asked their scientist to come and verify the potential of these weapons. We warned them of a second strike if they did not surrender. They balked after the second bomb. Target 3 was Tokyo. They then surrendered. As for maintaining the institution of Emperor that is bullshit propaganda intended to give the Japanese some sense of dignity and victory.

History and the eyewitness of the time record nothing like what you say. The Japanese were butchers of the first rank. It was not a first time for them.

I am no fan of war but in the case of the USA vs Japan..those bombs were all we had.

[bpilgrim]

49. "THE DECISION TO USE THE ATOMIC BOMB"

http://www.doug-long.com/debate.htm

peace

[chenGOD]

63. How could Target 3 have been Tokyo?

It was firebombed to virtual non-existance before the atomic bombs were ever dropped. More than 200,000 people died in the fire bombing of Tokyo, and over a million people were left homeless.

Check out what General Eisenhower had to say

http://www.nuclearfiles.org/redocuments/1963/63-ike-memoirs.html



Yes the Japanese were savage, but the atomic bombs were clearly not the only option open to America at the time.

[Grins]

67. Not true

"japan did not surrender until their 1 condition was met. (keeping the institution of emperor)"

Not true. The decision to keep the Emperor was MacArthur’s, and he made it after the bombs were dropped, and after the signing on the battleship Missouri.

On August 6, 1945, the Enola Gay, dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima, Japan, killing around one hundred thousand people and causing mass destruction. The squabbling over the surrender decision must have been intense because, even after the disintegration of Hiroshima, the Japanese Government was unable to reach internal agreement on surrender. The Japanese authorities concealed the facts of the detonation from the nation, stating that a large type of bomb had been exploded, but saying little more. Prime Minister Suzuki called a meeting with the most influential militarists - and they still resisted all pleas for surrender. The militarist’s main hope was for a US invasion. They had no ships or sufficient aircraft to bring the battle to the enemy. Until the US invaded, Japan had no good way to kill Americans. So, if the US came and fought Japan's 2-million man home army, on Japan's rugged terrain, Japan would kill plenty of Americans.

Three days later on August 9, 1945, another nuclear bomb was dropped on Nagasaki. Even that bombing still did not perturb the militarists. But it proved sufficient to tip the scales in favor of the Japanese peace faction, with the aid of the Emperor, who advocated surrender. Even still, it took 4 more days after Nagasaki for the actual surrender. This fact tends strongly to show that those who thought surrender would have been negotiable in April or May 1945, if only the Emperor's rule had been guaranteed, were mistaken.

After the fact, the Japanese military were still against surrendering in any scenario, and young officers invaded the palace to try to steal the recording of the Emperor's announcement and stop the surrender. The announcement even sparked a revolt by fanatical officers and nearly succeeded.

The militarist’s wanted a guerilla war. They believed that even if the emperor were hiding in the mountains with a few soldiers, that was preferable to having the public humiliation of the emperor subordinated to foreigners. Now, think of our Civil War (Great book on confederate guerilla warfare: April 1865 by Winik), Vietnam, and today’s Iraq; now, try to imagine what a guerilla war in Japan would have been like in 1946. By this time the hatred would have been overwhelming, and we would kill far more than those that were killed with firebombs or atomic weapons.

Meanwhile, as this surrender/fight political battle was going on, the Japanese in China were employing a burnt earth policy to control the huge areas their forces could not patrol, causing hunger death and other enormous sufferings to many millions of people. Word went out to that all POW’s were to be killed should the country fall. (Great book: Ghost Soldiers.)

In all, some 32 million Chinese died at the hands of the Japanese, directly or indirectly, for which they have scarcely acknowledged. Add to this that the Chinese army had never at any time so much as threatened Japanese territory. And Japan was the first country in any of the theaters of war to create a deliberate firestorm against an undefended city when it bombed Shanghai in 1932, says the author (Jordan) of Chinese Boycotts Versus Japanese Bombs.

The Japanese killed millions in a war they started and viciously prosecuted, brutally imprisoned tens of thousands more, kidnapped women across the continent and repeatedly raped and killed them. They killed children and infants with equal ease and comfort. The deaths from the two atomic bombs pale in comparison to the deaths resulting from the Japanese military's systematic abuse and killings of prisoners of war and slave laborers from Korea, China, and Southeast Asia.

And we’re to worry about a few hundred thousand of them killed in ending this misery? Give me a break.

[bpilgrim]

74. old war propaganda

even you see that the japanese even AFTER being NUKED twice STILL didn't surrender... what changed their mind?

as everyone can see now in iraq that the generals or even the imperial gov authority doesn't call the shoots at the end of the day... MacArthur didn't have the authority to make such a decision only the politicians after they agreed to it with the japanese as america didn't want a dived land as they had in germany.

"War is too important to be left to the generals" Clemenceau

peace

[Parche]

77. unconditional surrender..............period

Japan was not about to surrender until after the bombs were dropped
they were still holding out, the Army which had control was going to
fight until the end
It was a necessary evil that we dropped them, but I am glad they did
It is history, they can protest all they want, it wont change the
fact that we have the right to put the B-29 in a museum.

[bpilgrim]

80. then why was their 1 condition granted?

the institution of emperor remains to this very day.

peace

[bahrbearian]

11. Where does Hundred of Thousands come from

the War Hawks, who wanted to rationalize the Bombing. No other alternative, like Blockade or negotiation...

[coralrf]

46. Blockade...

blockade who..they were distributed all over the Pacific. Negotiation..read a history book. They spit on negotiation.

[Just Me]

15. War,...is simple,...

,...the reasons are complex,...

I think it is important to expose every single atrocity that war bears. Without that exposure, how will we ever defeat it? Defeat war, that is,...

Provocation of thought about war,...is precisely what all humanity should consider!!!

[Cooley Hurd]

17. The B-29 that dropped the Bomb on Nagasaki...

...is displayed at the USAF Museum in Dayton, OH. I've never heard whether similar protests have occured there or about its display.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap20.htm

[Zorro]

55. Interesting experience at the USAF museum

Beside the B-29 ("Bockscar") are two bomb casings, one of of "Little Boy" and "Fat Boy", and there was a Japanese family getting their photo taken standing beside them.

Very peculiar...

BTW, the museum is probably the most interesting one I've ever been to...even my wife found it fascinating...highly recommended...

[JohnOneillsMemory]

86. USAF Museum-sickening. Info on racism in USA made me shake!

A business trip in the area gave me time to visit the USAF Museum in Dayton, Ohio on a day off. I went with my best friend, who is African-American, and we both regretted the visit. We were terribly depressed by how soon the invention of flight turned into the pursuit of more efficient ways to kill as many people as quickly and far away as possible.

Between the 'Early Years' section of Wright Bros.-style cloth-and-bicycle technology and the most popular section, which is the 'Glory Years of WWII', is a tiny display about the Jewish Holocaust intended to, apparently, underscore the glory of perhaps the last time the US military's mission was 'on the side of the angels.'

Included was a timeline of civil rights issues in the US which showed the meteoric rise of the KKK right there in Dayton, Ohio. By the mid-20s, one in ten Daytonites belonged to the KKK and a parade down Main St. included 7000 KKK-ers. The Nazi's embraced the same theories of eugenics, of Biological Darwinism as Racial Superiority that the United States was built on: from Jamestown and Plymouth Rock to Wounded Knee to New Orleans to Manila to Tehran to Hanoi to Baghdad. The integration of actual German Nazis into the US government after WWII to develop intelligence and tactics against the Soviets for the duration of the Cold War brings the horror of Amerikkka's propensity for extremely efficient and deliberate genocide in the name of national self-interest full circle to today's current extension of the Crusades, with the Holy Grail being OIL beneath the sands of the 'terrorist sand-nigger infidels.'

My buddy and I were intensely depressed by the increasingly effective killing capabilities that give birth to Nationalism's and Technology's grotesque offspring, GENOCIDE, now portrayed hourly on Fox new as SUPERMAN JESUS IN A COWBOY HAT IN 'BAGHDAD CORRAL.'

The Atom-bombing of the Japanese was another act of racism designed to be a warning shot across the bow of the USSR to start off the Cold War. Al-queda can only dream of such hellishly realized destruction.

[Just Me]

19. Pure, Plain Murder,...

,...of anyone who stands in the way of political/philosophical/ideological pursuit,...is just plain WRONG. We can no longer justify any "rationalized just" actions in this "civil" world because,...everytime we do,...we, WE, produce the very "criminals" or "terrorists" or whatever flavor of the day to fight. We're freakin' hypocrites to excuse our evils. I would rather take all leaders and put those very few in a ring with swords and allow them to fight amongst themselves (while the rest of humanity does a quick 5 day recall of all of them *LOL*). At the very least,...we should demand their asses and their family members and cronies and buddies be on the front line,...like a real friggin' warrior. UGH,...I am sick of wimps being in charge.

[Muddleoftheroad]

36. I could have sworn

You were talking about:

* Pearl Harbor
* Bataan Death March
* Rape of Nanking
* Japanese scientific experiments on prisoners

All of those evils and MANY, MANY MORE were brought to you by the folks in Japan and were ended by the U.S.

[sistersofmercy]

39. Oh, I must have missed something I didn't realize the Japanese were

planning a display in honor of those atrocious events.

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. Not exactly, they just don't like owning up to them

[bpilgrim]

65. sounds familiar

peace

[Muddleoftheroad]

69. The way you mean peace

You mean surrender to nations like Japan.

No thanks.

[bpilgrim]

78. no i am talking about accepting their 1 condition to surrender

though as usuall you like to TWIST a persons words like a cheap pundit on the teeVee...

unlike the teeVee though we have a 'permanant' record of your cheap shots.

peace

[bpilgrim]

3. those numbers are very light 231,920 are currently recorded by Hiroshima

Number of names in The Hiroshima Register of Deceased Atomic Bomb Victims (as of August 6, 2003)

Male Female Sex unknown Total
128,589 103,272 59 231,920

http://www.city.hiroshima.jp/shimin/shimin/shikiten/meibo-e.html

peace

[mobuto]

5. While I agree they should do this

it always seems that the Japanese, unlike the Germans, have largely refused to come to term with the monstrous crimes they committed during the war. These activists are right, but why stop with the Enola Gay exhibit? Why don't they protest the textbooks and school curricula which omit reference of the Rape of Nanjing, the enslavement of the Koreans, the Bataan Death March, biological experiments on civilians, and a thousand more of crimes as barbaric as any the Nazis commited? One cannot forget the context in which the two atom bombs were dropped, a context in which the Japanese had killed and were killing as many as 30 million Chinese, were enslaving the populations of Korea, Indochina and Burma, and were torturing and summarily executing prisoners of war.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but you can't simply ignore that part of history unfavorable to you.

[bpilgrim]

7. they do

there are many peace activist in japan who protest the poor condiition of textbooks on that period.

but that's besides the point anyways...

peace

[Jonnycat26]

20. And many

And many who are happy with their past being swept under the rug.

[bpilgrim]

21. just like

many here

peace

[kodi]

6. only if photos of the japanese army's rape of nanking are included

and of the atrocities of POW camps and the medical experimentations the japanse purpetrated on korean, chinese, british and american soldiers and civilians.

frankly i dont give a rat's ass about what the japanese want. their armies were a bunch of murdering bastards long before the americans dropped nukes on them.

for decades, japanese schoolbooks hid from their own people the atrocities their armed forces purpetrated on the world.

its why even today that so many japanese act like all that happened during the war was hiroshima and nagasaki.

oh, japanese civilians? tell that to the millions of east asians the japanese murdered.

[bpilgrim]

8. kill'em all and let god sort'em out

maybe that should be the headline of the memorial

ironic how we are now behaving just like the japanese did during wwII...

- fighting preventive wars to bring peace and prosperity to the region
- illegal combatants
- starving and denying medical supplies to a nation for over a decade that many say are responcible for over a million deaths there.
- ignoring international opinions and agreements
- brutal tactics used to put down a popular rebelion to the invaders.
- baghdad and nanking are becoming more and more simular eveyday.

but all this is besides the point of stating the magnitude of our TERRORIST act on a civilian population that was defeated militarily and looking to surrender.

peace

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Norton]

16. Who's kidding who?

We dropped those bombs just to see what would happen. It will always be the most perverse thing man has ever done to man, and we did it twice!
Dropped on civilians to scare the Hell outta Russia... who's kidding who?

[Name removed]

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[Muddleoftheroad]

37. What happened was the war ended

Funny how that worked out.

[sistersofmercy]

40. So "by all means necessary" is fine with you?

Funny but I thought the slaughter of innocent civilians was an issue.

[Muddleoftheroad]

60. No slaughter

And, for those who haven't read about this, WWII was a total war because Japan and her Axis buddies (Hitler, Mussolini and other fun folks) tried to conquer the world. The Allies stopped them.

The Axis fought a total war, not just against soldiers, but against civilians and means of production. We fought on the same terms.

Thankfully, we won.

[bpilgrim]

43. when we accepted japans 1 condition

as recommended by all military leaders in theater at that time to allow the institution of emperor to remain... as it has to this very day and has proven to be a wise and successful decision.

they made their recommendation well before the bombs were dropped and their rational for it ironicly was to SAVE LIVES which is now used as the main excuse for why we dropped them.

just think how many lives would have been saved if we had accepted their surrender in the spring or early summer of 45...

peace

[Name removed]

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[PsN2Wind]

25. My brother-in-law

who fought at Guadacanal, the Gilberts, the Fijis, New Guinea, I'm sure would have no problem with the idea he could have spent a few more months in Hell so we could sit on our asses having philosophical discussion about how we would have ended the war. Check out the battle for Okinawa to see how the defeated Japanese felt about surrender.

[bpilgrim]

28. well if we followed the advice of the military leaders in theater

at that time and accepted japan's 1 condition for surrender - which we finally did after we ran out of nukes - in order to SAVE LIVES in the spring or early summer many more would have been saved.

i know my uncles would have appreciated that.

peace

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. The SUPREME commander made the decision

As he always does.

And, as history has proven, it was entirely correct.

[bpilgrim]

44. against the advice of ALL his military leaders

yet in the end he wound up taking the advice of his military leaders in the end, AFTER we ran out of nukes.

peace

[Muddleoftheroad]

61. The Japanese surrendered AFTER being nuked

Gee, I wonder why?

[Name removed]

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[Lydia Leftcoast]

53. I know quite a bit about Japan's atrocities in China

and I hope that we never get to the point that the Imperial Japanese Army did. And no, we aren't there...yet. As far as I know, our soldiers aren't going house to house demanding teenage girls to rape and murder, killing prisoners with flamethrowers, or having contests to see who can behead the most civilians.

But one thing that is very similar to the Iraq situation is that the Japanese press was utterly tame. It was full of reports of glorious victory marches and throngs of Chinese "welcoming" the conquerors. The 1930s equivalent of "embedded journalists" wrote about "heroic" soldiers. Honest accounts were censored. Famous authors were given carefully tailored trips to the conquered areas, with the understanding that they would write favorable accounts if they wanted to continue publishing.

The average Japanese person had no alternative sources of news. It was very easy for them to believe that their soldiers were on a noble mission to "enlighten" the peoples of Asia.

The worst atrocities were committed in other countries, not in Japan, so the Japanese people never went through the wrenching postwar experience that the Germans did, actually seeing the places where the mass murders and torture occurred.

[JailBush]

22. World War II Irony

Many historians seem to think we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki largely to frighten Russia into submission. Frankly, I've had a hard time accepting the theory that we had to do it because the Japanese refused to surrender. Japan was a beaten nation - period. Ironically, the Japanese played into the White House's hands with their suicide bomber-like heroism; it was easy for Americans to believe they would have fought to the last baby.

There is some justice in the fact that the Japanese were responsible for the Rape of Nanking and other atrocities. Just remember that the United States has also perpetrated many atrocities and we may ultimately pay the price with a nuclear attack on our soil. Will we admit we had it coming?

The irony is that the Japanese behaved very much like Americans did during the 19th and early 20th centuries, murdering Native Americans, then embarking on a colonial spree that took us into China and Japan. We basically forced Japan to open its doors to the West and thus modernize, then treated them like shit.

Another irony: In bombing Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, etc. we lost the moral high ground. Prescott Bush's Nazi affiliations would be but a mere quirk of history if we had kept our nose clean. One man pushing a button over Hiroshima isn't nearly as terrible as what thousands of Japanese thugs did in Nanking; but the victims probably saw little difference.

Finally, the Japanese may fully pay for their crimes yet. China is Asia's emerging new superpower, and they haven't forgotten.

[bpilgrim]

29. 'One man pushing a button over Hiroshima isn't nearly as terrible'

'One man pushing a button over Hiroshima isn't nearly as terrible as what thousands of Japanese thugs did in Nanking; but the victims probably saw little difference.'

instant mass murder and complete destruction vs occupation and its attendent atrocities (many of which we are now carrying out in iraq) hmmmm...

terrorist acts on both sides but i would disagree with your conclusion of their scale.

peace

[OLY-M4gery]

31. Bombs

Japan committed a long list of atrocities in WW-II
The Rape of Nanking led to a US embargo, demanding that the Japanese military leave China. Instead they attacked Pearl Harbor. An attack that isn't spoken much about in Japanese cirriculum.

That led to the Bataan Death March. "The Bridge Over the River Kwai", which was the building of a Japanese military rail line. Appx 250,000 slave laborers died during the very quick construction of the rail line. The Japanese military initially planned to massacre the surving workers after the rail lines completion, 750,000 people. But for some reason abandoned that plan. In place where the rail line ran, there are still large open ditches. Those were dug to be used as mass graves.

Japanese soldiers and sailors refused to surrender, even when further combat was futile.

Info about the battle of Okinawa, casualty rates, the only invasion of the Japanese "homeland" prior to the atomic bombs being dropped.

Exceprted from a site detailing the Battle of Okinawa
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Japanese human losses were enormous: 107,539 soldiers killed and 23,764 sealed in caves or buried by the Japanese themselves; 10,755 captured or surrendered.

According to US Army records during the planning phase of the operation, the assumption was that Okinawa was home to about 300,000 civilians. At the conclusion of hostilities around 196,000 civilians remained. However, US Army figures for the 82 day campaign showed a total figure of 142,058 civilian casualties, including those killed by artillery fire, air attacks and those who were pressed into service by the Japanese army.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just because resistance is futile, doesn't mean that no resitance will be met. The Japanese military was actively training civilians to attack American troops, and arming them with rudimentary impact weapons. People with sticks die in great numbers when they attack people with guns and tanks.

The feeling was 90% or more of the Japanese military would die in an invasion of Japan, and an enormous number of Japanese citizens would die, either attempting to resist the invasion, or as a matter of honor.

Would it have been more acceptable to take Japan by an invasion, and have to kill 50% of the Japanese population, or drop bombs on 2 cities that force the rest of the country into surrender?

[bpilgrim]

33. and terrorism

was conducted on both sides.

i am not interested in going through the long list of atrocities that occurred on BOTH sides during the war to try and judge if NUKING a defeated nations cities filled with innocent civilians TWICE.

how many lives would have been saved if we had followed our military leaders in theater advice to accept japans 1 condition for surrender in the spring or early summer of 45?

history has shown that accepting their 1 condition was a wise and succesful decision

peae

[TexasMexican]

30. I agree with showing all the details and I still agree with the bombing.

Americans should know what was really done when we bombed Japan twice with nuclear weapons.

That being said we were completely justified in doing so.

WWII was a total war, the likes of which we have never seen since. There were no innocent civillians on either side, for the most part the full resources of each nation were put into winning the war. Japan more so than any other nation.

Thier people were ordered to fight to the last man, woman, and child when the US invaded. Considering how hard they fought against us (hell some didnt given up till the 70s) who were we to say that they were bluffing, we believed them.

[bpilgrim]

32. 'total war' doesn't justify war crimes

imho

japan surrendered when their one condition was met after we ran out of nukes.

appears not only were they unjustified but also UNNECESSARY.

peace

[coralrf]

48. We did not run out of nukes...

and the surrendered unconditionally, with the face saving gimme that you mention that the US did not give a shit about. Tokyo was to be targeted. That brought them to the ship.

[Grins]

73. We did...

We did run out of nukes, but it was only temporary.

But, nukes or no-nukes, the US was coming. And don’t forget that the Allies made it quite clear that with the war over in Europe, considerably more troops would be available to fight them on their soil. If was to be a large land war, the Chinese would come in to some degree. Not only would they have to fight the US, they would also have to face some really pissed-off Chinese in partnership with another pissed-off Chinese guy named Mao. How would they like those bastards as occupiers? The other clincher was that the Soviet Union declared war on them, so they would have the Americans and Chinese at their front door, with the Russians at their back. The Japanese had no choice – and no say.

You are correct that “face saving” is all crap. All their overtures were denied (probably because they made them to Stalin and not the Brits or Americans directly) and the compliment was returned. The surrender documents they signed stated: “The authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to effectuate these terms of surrender.”

Hirohito was going to be indicted for war crimes, and MacArthur knew that the people would react negatively, so he made efforts to prevent the indictment. Hirohito was not convicted of war crimes. The emperor was on good terms with MacArthur because he realized that he had no choice.

Hirohito renounced his divinity on New Year's Day 1946 - almost 5 months after the surrender. If that was Japan’s “…one condition…” for their surrender, they never got it.

[bpilgrim]

79. the institution of the emperor was reckognized in the surrender docs

as you pointed out in your post.

the decision to allow the institution of emperor to remain in its symbolic postion as head of the japanese state could only be made at the top of the political leadership and not to a general... just look at who calls the shoots in iraq today and anyone who knows history knows that it would be absurb to think that the politicos would allow a general to make such a political decision on his own is naive.

even after being NUKED TWICE they didn't surrender till their 1 condition was met and it has stood the test of time and proven to be a wise one.

since the russians had already started their invasions we didn't have any more time to wait around and the japanese knew it.

peace

[alarimer]

51. The display

I think the museum has bowed to political pressure from GI groups to water down the display. The fact is that those cities were chosen deliberately because they had large civilian populations. Not because they were important militarily except to break down the will of the country to continue. You can talk about Japanese atrocities all you want but what we did was disgusting and I am deeply ashamed of this country when I think about these things. There is no honor is what they did; NONE. We should all know the truth. We behaved no better than the Japanese in this case. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. Hiroshima was deliberately not attacked

by conventional bombs (unlike almost every other major city in the coutnry) because the U.S. military was "saving" it as the first city to be nuked.

Nagasaki was not the first choice for the second bomb. It was the alternative target and was designated at the last minute after the primary target, the city of Kokura, which is now a part of the city of Kita-Kyushu, was clouded over.

[Art_from_Ark]

34. Hyperbolic headline

Attack? The damn headline conjures up images of raging Japanese storming the walls of the exhibition hall. All it was was a criticism of the exhibit. Sheesh.

[bpilgrim]

50. agreed

:hi:

peace

[Patriot_Spear]

42. Right after Japan admits what they did to China and Unit 731, maybe...

Whew, the gall of some people.

[bpilgrim]

47. yeah, if they don't want to talk about their terrorism why should we talk

about our right?

though we should still build monuments to ours, eh?

peace

[SpiralHawk]

52. Spiritual Residue: Hiroshima Flame Extinguished at Big mtn., AZ

Final Embers of Hiroshima Peace Flame
Expire in Ceremony at Big Mountain

The fire that was ignited 57 years ago on August 6, 1945 when the Enola Gay dropped the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima, Japan, was ceremonially extinguished by a multicolored band of pilgrims on May 27, 2002 at Big Mountain on Black Mesa in Arizona, in a high desert range sweet with the smell of sagebrush.

(snip)

Big Mountain in the heart of the Four Corners is a sacred region in the Southwest, recognized by traditional Hopi, Dineh, and other native peoples, as the spiritual center of our continent (Turtle Island, aka North America).

Although the relationship between the larger Dineh and Hopi nations, and between those nations and the US government and corporations, has been a morass of conflict and confusion, the sacred teachings about the Four Corners handed down from antiquity echo — at some level — in the soul of every person involved.

more:
http://www.chiron-communications.com/communique%207-6.html

[Djinn]

56. personal connections notwithstanding

seems people always justify their own opinions of this sort of thing based on their own personal connections - ie what I think is more valid than what you think because I/my brother/father etc fought/died at x battle??

my partners grandfather was a pow in Changi, like a lot of australians soldiers another close relative lost both legs after the war as a result of his treatment in the camps at the hands of the japanese soldiers - two of his closest friends and one brother perished during the infamous Sandakan March, none of this makes my opinion any different than someone without a personal connection.

Interestingly my other halfs grandad thinks the only good thing the "yanks" ever did was dropping the atom bomb, the other relative (who arguably suffered more brutality and certainly spent longer as a pow) thinks as I do that it was about demonstrating power to the Russians as the Japanese were already defeated.

Just wanted to say that people should leave out references to "my father/brother/uncle fought blah blah" because even amongst the vets themselves there is dispute on this issue

[Lydia Leftcoast]

57. On one anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima

in the early 1980s, I was in church, and the pastor told of his own experiences as a G.I. in the Pacific during WWII. He admitted that he and his buddies cheered when they heard of the bombing of Hiroshima but looking back, he felt ashamed to admit it. Now he knew that American lives were no more valuable than Japanese lives in the sight of God, and that one atrocity doesn't justify another.

[Muddleoftheroad]

62. Then he was wrong

When someone attacks you, tries to conquer the world, and rapes, tortures and murders their way across half the world, stopping them is a GOOD thing.

[Djinn]

64. by your logic muddleoftheroad

then there are significant numbers of non US citizens who would be justified in "stopping" (read "killing millions of civilians") the USA based on their governments actions????

[Norton]

66. Excellent point Djinn...

When they nuke us... me, you, my neighbors, and the guy trimming the hedge out there had it coming anyway since we were the ones who invaded Afghanistan and Iraq... sounds fair!
Bombs don't discriminate between guilty and innocent. Everyone always says an invasion would've cost thousands of American lives... why would we invade Japan? We dropped those bombs to make our invasion go smoothly?... When/where did we land all those troops after the A-bombs cleared the way? There were ulterior motives for those bombs. Truman was on a boat not taking calls from Japan while the Enola Gay was winging her way to the gross mass-murder of uninvolved souls. We will never wash that blood off our hands... it's the blood of revenge
and it stains forever.

[Muddleoftheroad]

90. Ah, the America is always wrong argument

Sorry, we didn't start the war. We didn't turn rape into an industry. We didn't butcher thousands of soldiers or hundreds of thousands in Nanking.

Japan did those things. Then it didn't surrender until forced to do so.

If there is any blood still staining anyone, it is on their hands and the hands of their German and Italian allies.

[Muddleoftheroad]

89. Are you saying that we and others were not justified fighting Japan?

[goforit]

68. Knock ...knock, who's there?..........Karma for America.

This just does not look good.

Thanks for bringing out all the skeletons, W.

This is all we need is more mounting hatred.

[Muddleoftheroad]

70. Tell you what

I personally declare I will aborb any negative karma points for the nukes dropped on Japan.

Since, I don't believe there are any and that more lives were saved as a result long term, I'll take my chances.

[Djinn]

71. but are you willing to be nuked

for the illegal violence of past and present US governments? As you seem to think that's OK

[Muddleoftheroad]

72. All nations do good things and bad ones

I offered to take responsibility for what I consider to be necessary and something that saved lives. I am not giving the U.S. absolution for every wrong in 200+ years, just this event -- which was not wrong.

[bpilgrim]

76. you already agreed we would have saved more lives if we had accepted

their 1 condition to surrender earlier as recommended by all military leaders in theater at that time in order to SAVE LIVES...

so if you accept that how can you feel the bombs 'saved lives' :crazy:

peace

[Muddleoftheroad]

88. You are misrepresenting what I said

I said short term. That didn't solve long term problems and presidents need to take them into account as well.

[bpilgrim]

75. no military leader in theater at that time agree with you

peace

[Djinn]

81. But the REASON

you offered to take responsibility (a bit of a furphy there) was because you beleive the slaughter of MILLIONS of civilians was justified because of the actions of the Japanese soldiers

so in effect you're saying that it would be perfectly OK if someone from say Afghanistan, Iraq, Guatemala, Panama, Laos, Vietnam etc etc etc dropped a bomb on US citizens (or say maybe they don't have a big bomb and decide to use a couple of planes instead) slaughtering countless American citizens because of the illegal violence inflicted on their countries by yours

Or is it only brown skinned people who have to suffer for their crimes??????

[AmericaInWonderland]

82. A Double Standard

Sheesh, the nerve of these people. Before they start protesting this massacre why don't they protest their own government's atrocities; mass vivsections, torture, beheadings, and rapes of millions of chinese, filipinos, koreans, etc.

Just in Nanjing alone:
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/NanjingMassacre/NMNJ.html
Quick facts from the site:
-300,000 massacred in Nanjing alone.
-20,000 women were raped by the Japanese soldiers during the six weeks of the Nanking Massacre
-A large number of young men who were arrested, together with those who had been captured earlier, were sent outside of the city to be massacred, from several thousand to tens of thousand at a time. In most cases, the captives were shot by machine guns, and those who were still alive were bayoneted individually. In some cases, the Japanese poured gasoline onto the captives and burned them alive. In some cases, poison gas was used.
-Numerous atrocities occurred within and around the city, and the victims were largely civilians. Japanese soldiers invented and exercised inhumane and barbaric methods of killing. The brutalities included shooting, stabbing, striking off the head, cutting open the abdomen, excavating the heart, decapitation (beheading), drowning, burning, punching the body and the eyes with an awl, and even castration or punching through the vagina.

C'mon, the germans admitted their guilt and their children know of their mistakes, its time the Japanese do the same for their children. Because those who don't learn from history are doomed...
-The denial of the Nanking Massacre started around 1972, when the right-wing political force in Japan began to rise.
-Besides total denial, another line of Japanese thoughts insisted that the Nanking Massacre was exaggerated by the Chinese. This view is best elaborated in a book written by Hata Ikuhiko "Nanking Incident" (Chuo Koron Shinsho, 1986) in which it was argued that the number of victims in the Massacre was between 38,000-42,000. It was also argued that the killing of surrendered or captured soldiers should NOT be considered as "Massacre". This book is now considered as the official history text on the issue by the Japan Ministry of Education.

to repeat it. 28 September, 2003:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3146514.stm
(Was Neil involved?)
A three-day orgy allegedly held at a Chinese luxury hotel for hundreds of male Japanese tourists has provoked outrage after reports of the lurid goings-on were published in China's state media.
...
The event coincided with the 18 September anniversary of Japan's occupation of north-eastern China of 1931 - still resented by many Chinese.
...(and the past never leaves)
A month ago, Chinese workers stumbled across chemical weapons left behind by Japanese forces after World War II. One person died and more than 40 were injured.

END

I don't think the lives of many East Asians lost to Japanese aggression during WWII are any less or more valuable than those lost in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Until the Japanese address this double standard, I don't think their protests deserve any credibility.

I know two wrongs (massacres) do not make a right, but as a developed world power, they need to be held to higher standards -- even now especially in their treatment of women, their revisionist historians, and their still present imperialistic tendencies. (And no, I am not talking about the US this time).

[bpilgrim]

83. they aren't building a mounument to their acts of TERRORISM

besides this ISN'T the japanese gov it is a PEACE GROUP. who are against ALL acts of agression and terrorism even the acts commited by their OWN gov shoot many HS teachers to this very day REFUSE to fly the flag in their classrooms because they feel it represents japans militant past.

peace

[AmericaInWonderland]

84. Look at it from this perspective

To many, the atomic bomb signified the end of the war and a cause for celebration. It is sad that it took a horrific act to end a horrific war, but it ended arguably the worst period of human history nonetheless. I agree that pictures and statistics of the victims should be displayed. I am not sure if another motive was to scare Russia or if it was revenge. I do believe though that the main motive was to stop the Japanese army. It did work as many asian countries regained their sovereignty, war victims were finally able to put their lives back together, soldiers were finally able to return home, etc. Who knows how many more people would have died if Japan were attacked directly. The Japanese army were known for their fierce loyalty to the emperor.

I also hoped to take the opportunity to vent some frustration of this double standard. The Japanese honor their war dead and their emperor. But tragically there is no mention of the horrors they committed in life to numerous Eastern Asians.

[bpilgrim]

85. Vietnam

i thought of that when you posted this...

"It did work as many asian countries regained their sovereignty, war victims were finally able to put their lives back together, soldiers were finally able to return home, etc."

do you know how many vietnamese we killed in that war of colonialism? the vietnamese had just finished fighting the japanese for independence when they then had to continue but this time fighting the west.

look, they were a defeated, trying to surrender nation that we NUKED TWICE against the advice of ALL military leaders in theater at the time for POLITICAL purposes think SHOCK and AWE.

they have many things to be ashamed of for their behavior during wwII but keep in mind they only attack our military but besides... just think how many lives would have been saved if we had accepted their one condition to surrender earlier as recommended by our military leaders in order to SAVE LIVES.

think about it...

peace

[Djinn]

87. during US Veterans Day celebrations

do they often dwell on the millions of Vietnamese that were killed by US (and australian) soldiers in a war that now even the secretary of state of the time said "was a mistake"

The US has even admitted "we don't do body counts" in Iraq - so not only will the US not be "honoring" those they illegally killed they wont even acknowledge them

Hows that for a double standard