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boise1 Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:54 AM
Original message
Automakers will need to disclose 'black boxes'
Devices designed to record events before, during and after a crash

By KEN THOMAS
Associated Press Writer
Updated: 11 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Automakers will be required to tell owners if their vehicle has an event data recorder, commonly called a "black box," and collect uniform data from the devices, the government said Monday.

In the seconds before, during and after a crash, event data recorders can provide information about a vehicle's speed and acceleration, whether air bags were deployed, the brakes were applied or seat belts were being worn.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said beginning with 2011 model year vehicles, automakers will need to disclose the existence of the technology in owners manuals.

The data recorders also will need to be more durable to protect the information during a crash while requiring the auto industry to collect a uniform amount of data to help in the development of new safety regulations.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14453287/from/RS.2 /
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. Interesting..........
Can these black boxes also disclose your travel?
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boise1 Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. It sounds as if they are cycling through only several secs at a time
And then programming the last sequence of events into a flash memory part in the event of an "incident".
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Eventually, they'll do more than that
They'll control where you are allowed to travel to!
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Rental Cars have systems that can tell
the company your maximum speed, location, etc.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/03/A01-33...



In a sense, your car could testify against you in court.
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Testify...
How reliable is the information? The Governor of the State of Maine was in a crash that involved one of these black boxes, and the state police did not believe the data in the box.

http://www.motorists.org/issues/edrs/mainegovernor.html

Now if you or I were in that accident and we were disputing the black box data, I bet the state police is going to side with the black box.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Local case recently almost got a driver jailed for homicide
<snip>

Prosecutors contended that Wilson, a licensed truck driver, was traveling too fast for conditions along snowy Melwood Road in Allegheny Township on April 3, 2005.

The case against him came down to a disagreement between Wilson's onboard computer and police accident reconstructionists, who claimed the car was traveling about 35 mph at the point of impact.

The computer device, which recorded the vehicle's speed and regulated the deployment of airbags, is called the black box. According to the black box, Wilson's car was traveling 60 mph, or five miles above the speed limit, three seconds before the crash.

Prosecutors contended the computer was accurate. Wilson's defense during the four-day trial was that the black box was incorrect, and disputed the computer's data by showing that the car's airbags never deployed.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/search/s...

Thank goodness the jury didn't believe the black box.
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TlalocW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. Aren't they also planning on putting
GPS locators into cars? I thought I saw something on Penn and Teller's, "Bullshit," about some related to this.

TlalocW
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trogdor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. That's what OnStar is for.
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 01:11 PM by trogdor
Getting people to willingly submit to this sort of thing in the name of "safetyness," and pay for the privilege.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I've heard--can't attest to its truthiness--that OnStar systems
are capable of sending a signal to kill the engine and prevent a restart. Ostensibly it would be as an anti-theft device, but I could totally see it being used to make sure you don't get too close to that "Free Speech Zone".
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ConcernedCanuk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. What? - ya don't trust your own Gubment?? (wise person, you)
.
.
.

and yes - the vehicle can be disabled through this system - ANY vehicle with a GPS chip, minimal wiring and so on . .

I've known about this "box" for some time now - it keeps a running memory of driver functions from speed, times brake pressed and so on for up to 30 seconds and usually is triggered to expand recording when an air bag is deployed, or a sensor in the front or rear bumper is "tagged"

So if ya tell a cop you stepped on your brakes before you hit something/someone - the "box" may tell a different story

1984 is almost here

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Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. If cars can be remotely stopped through this system...
What's to stop some enterprising hacker from creating a gizmo with an antenna that shuts down every car within its broadcast range?
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ConcernedCanuk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Nothing
.
.
.

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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. If they can open unlock the door when you lock your keys inside
How much more would it take to do that too?
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
7. 2011?! Come ON!! If you have a car less than 2 years old
you probably already have one. Most people don't even know they exist and even the dealers generally don't know which vehicles have them installed.

"We recognize that the automobile industry has already invested considerable effort and resources into developing effective EDR technologies, so we want to be especially careful not to adopt requirements that would result in unnecessary costs," the agency wrote.

awww, isn't that nice, protecting the poor car companies from "unnecessary costs". Too bad they don't give a flying rat's ass about fucking the average American out of his right to privacy. Assholes.
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. Mine has one
if I sue GM they use the data in the box. The box in in to protect them in lawsuits. Well, who can blame them for trying?
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
10. Considering that WE'RE paying for them
We should not only know of their existence, but also should be able to access the data inside.

And I think that someone should make a case that this data is private information and a warrant should be needed to use the data in criminal or civil cases.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. The National Motorist's Association lobbies for your rights
when it comes to automotive issues.

They have some good articles on EDRs.

http://www.motorists.org/issues/edrs/index.html
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. ".. someone should make a case that this data is private information .."
Look at the airlines (own the boxes), ALPA (represent the pilots), the FAA, the NTSB, the Flight Safety Foundation and cases relating to those entities. Then Google F.O.Q.A. (FOQA). FOQA (Flight Operations Quality Assurance program) is the result of a random, sanitized, penalty-free study of airliner "black box" (DFDR) data.

It was a tooth-and-nail fight, but because of that random harvesting and analysis of DFDR data, your airline flights are much safer and getting even more so. I hope that automobile black box data finds the same wonderful use, in the long (and anonymous) run.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. A central tenet of aviation has alway been empirical analysis,
trying to answer the question of "what went wrong?" rather than "who screwed up?"

Unfortunately the same attitude doesn't carry over into the automotive world. There, it's always about collecting fines, denying insurance claims and finding a crime in every accident.

You aspire to such heights; maybe that's why you're a pilot. :D
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. I want to know how to electrocute the box
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. another article on the subject from Time
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Throd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
15. Guess I'll keep my '73 Cutlass
Will people be allowed to disconnect the device if they do not want it?
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Probably not...
Most likely it is simply another component of the car's computer, so that if you try to remove it, the car no longer operates. Most likely its a Flash Memory chip with some firmware software on it, to tell it what to record, and some extra memory to store the data, probably no more than a Megabyte or so of memory.

I imagine that in the near future, hackers will be able to erase the firmware without damaging other components of the computer, or install a mod, substitute chip in it.

Where there is a will, there is a way.
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CornField Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
19. Hope they are more accurate than my on-board computer
If you were to take a 3-5 second snippet from my on-board computer at any given time, it would show a quite different picture from the one that is actually happening. For instance, it takes a second or two for the computer to register changes in acceleration and/or braking (as evidenced by the 'instant' MPG readout). It also has difficulty exactly determining the fuel consumption and so-forth.

So, let's hope the auto manufactures have a better computer in the 'black box' -- but let's not hold our breath.
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Bamboo Donating Member (258 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
22. The lion tamer has a whip and pistol amid snarling beasts.
I would like to see recording devices attached to transponders so as you pass a point on the road it can verify your speed and determine if you are in violation of the law.Every driver has their own plug in device to determine who is driving and portable so it can be brought to traffic court.It would save gasoline and lives that the current honor system fails to do now.The fine could be deducted from a toll transponder and results sent to your insurance company to set rates.I would like to see every cigarette with a chip so its owner can be fined for littering.I am waiting for a robotic haircut since I do not like talking about work on my day off.

http://www.davisnet.com/drive/products /

http://www.sunpass.com /
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Please, please tell me you forgot to add the ":sarcasm:"
Please?
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Bamboo Donating Member (258 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. A spoon full of sarcasm helps the medicine go down.
There is a toy sold at Disney World called Pal Mickey.It communicates with transponders in the park that will set off Mickey to tell you jokes in line or tell you about the ice cream.Children are accepting of technology,later in life Mickey will say "Book him,Dano".We need a government that will not abuse this technology which means being educated and active citizens.

http://www.allearsnet.com/tp/pal.htm
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
25. Safety? Bah. It's for the insurance companies.
Eliminates a whole lot of litigation when evidence from one of these black boxes will be presented.
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