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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:46 AM
Original message
Finnish FM warns Israel it cannot crush Hezbollah by force
Finnish FM warns Israel it cannot crush Hezbollah by force
28 minutes ago

CAIRO (AFP) - Finnish Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja, whose country currently holds the EU presidency, has warned Israel that it could not crush Shiite militant group Hezbollah by military means alone
(snip)

The Finnish minister expressed disappointment with Israel's failure to designate humanitarian corridors to allow desperately needed relief aid to reach Lebanon and those trapped in the south by the fighting.

"We have been making daily demarches in Tel Aviv about this. We have received some assurances but they have not always been respected. Frankly, we find the Israeli attitude to guaranteeing humanitarian assistance very disappointing."
(snip/...)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060810/wl_mideast_afp/mid...
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. These are all message to bush
That dumb fuck better listen before he set this planet ablaze.

Get moving on that damn UN Resolution and stop behaving like a spoilt brat wanting you way.

Geee The ARAB LEAGUE AND THE OIC has enough already and you better wake up.
Almost all leaders freaking out except you.

And if you veto the resolution.
The Arab League declare war
All will blame the US.

And you just pass a death sentence on all the troops in Iraq.

You damn fuck bush
You cannot take on 22 cointries at one time.
You cannot face 57 countries at one time if OIC act too.

You cannot use nukes and not expect all to jump in.
You going to destroy the US and YOU GOING TO CAUSE THE DESTRUCTION OF ISREAL

You dumb motherfucker bush :puke:



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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. something missing
I thought the OP was about the Finns and Israel

I know for a fact that the little dummy can't speak Finnish
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Stockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. It is but Finland is now also speaking for the EU as a whole
since they hold the presidency of the union.

http://www.eu2006.fi/en_GB/
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I thank the EU they all trying hand to keep
things under controlled.

But ..... sadly bush crazy.
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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I Doubt
that Tarja Halonen is aware that her Foreign Minister is speaking for the EU.....

Do Ya Think??
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Why ask me? How I know?
Go asked the person. If it is so important to you.
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Stockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. I am sure she is very much aware of that
?
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. Haha
I mean he hold the EU presidency right.

I wont even bother to answer this kind of question.
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Laotra Donating Member (479 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
22. Huh?
Why do you doubt it? Finland holds the precidency of EU, and the face of EU in the Lebanon matter is Finnish FM Tuomioja, together with High Representative Solana.

So far Tuomioja (leftist social democrat and not liked in Israel) has been doing as well as can be expected in very difficult circumstances. UK undersigned the common position of EU (which has currently five votes in SC) and should be expected to vote against US, if and when France tables the common position for SC resolution, forcing US to veto it or accept it.
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Yes, all (even Germany) except Boss of UK Government
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1840979,00.ht...
Demands for recall of parliament growing
Patrick Wintour, political editor
Thursday August 10, 2006
The Guardian

More than 150 MPs, including a fifth of Labour's parliamentary party, yesterday joined forces with 17 charities, including Oxfam and Amnesty International, to urge the recall of parliament to discuss the crisis in Lebanon.

The move, revealed in the Guardian yesterday, came as Jim Sheridan, the parliamentary private secretary at the Ministry of Defence, resigned in protest at government policy on the Middle East.

Last night Mr Sheridan said: "I think there is a significant amount of colleagues in the party, not just the usual suspects, but there are loyal members of the party and indeed the government ... who genuinely believe we cannot dictate Middle East policy by using excessive force.

"I think we are now in danger of embarking on an extremely dangerous strategy and we have to stop the bombing and killing of people on both sides of this conflict." The recall initiative was backed by almost all Liberal Democrat MPs, including party leader Sir Menzies Campbell. He said that if parliament had not been in recess, the prime minister would have been expected to make a statement on the crisis. Other supporters of the recall include SNP leader Alex Salmond and Plaid Cymru's Elfyn Llywd.

Labour MPs backing the recall include John Denham, chairman of the home affairs select committee, Tony Lloyd, the former foreign office minister, Clare Short, former international development secretary, and, according to some sources, Paddy Tipping, parliamentary aide to the leader of the Commons Jack Straw. Another signatory was Ann Keen, the parliamentary private secretary to Gordon Brown. Mr Tipping could not be contacted last night. But the recall was opposed by the shadow foreign secretary, William Hague.

/...
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. As regards OIC (Organisation of the Islamic Conference), cf items such as:
http://www.pakistanlink.com/Headlines/Aug06/09/09.htm
Wednesday, August 09, 2006

OIC should consider arms for Hezbollah: Malaysian minister

KUALA LUMPUR: Malaysian Foreign Minister Syed Hamid Albar said on Tuesday that the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC) nations should consider supplying arms to Hezbollah amid anger and frustration over Israels offensive in Lebanon. Malaysia currently chairs the 57-nation OIC, and Syed Hamid said Israel could not be allowed to act with impunity, although it seemingly had carte blanche in its operations. Some are suggesting that we supply arms. Okay, we should look at all these things, Syed Hamid was quoted as saying by the state Bernama news agency. The governments (of OIC) countries should look and we must not allow Israel to do what it wants, he said, but added that Muslim countries had to act according to international norms and principles. Malaysia last week hosted a meeting of the OIC, which demanded an immediate ceasefire in the Middle East and warned that boiling anger over the Israeli offensive could launch a new wave of terrorism. Syed Hamid also criticised a United Nations draft resolution on ending the conflict, which has been rejected by Lebanon because it does not call for the immediate withdrawal of Israeli forces from its territory. I think we must not look at Israel only. We must also look at what Lebanon wants. I think it is unfair, imbalanced and unjust to just look at what Israel wants, he said. The world should not be dictated just purely by Israeli desire but it must be incorporating justice and fairness in the international system, he said. afp
Courtesy http://www.dailytimes.com.pk
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. OIC should consider arms for Lebanon.
As opposed to a private Islamist militia. Remember: Malaysia is moderate, and presumably this is a moderate view. Or Albar should be thwacked by the prime minister. (As opposed to what Mahathir, that other moderate, would have done: cuddle him.)

But to actually support the Lebanese government would be acknowledging Lebanese sovereignty. Unless Siniora, in private, is saying to support Hezb. What's the likelihood of *that*? Never mind, rhetorical question. Nasrallah's Signora is true to form.
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. Haha there is always 2 point of view
You see one side others see the other side.

You say Hezb terrorist or any name if you want

Other side see different.

Support for Lebanon clear
But would it not look stupid to send arm to Lebanon when Hezb is doing the fighting :rofl:
So might as well be direct :rofl:
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
11. he is right....the children of civilians killed in this war will grow up
with a blinding hatred of israel...

people facing food/medical shortage in the south where israel isnt allowing aid to come through...will also have a blinding hatred of israel

really this war will backfire and create more terrorism for israel
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Do you really think Israel should base it's decisions
on what other people think? Or what might happen sometime in the future according to some confused people? FYI--The causes of terrorism are complex.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. i think israel should stop the mass murder of civilians
in the pretense that its self defense...its not...its intimidation...and a flexing of their power...
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
37. Your post makes too much sense
for the people here who defend Israel in all it's actions.
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McKinneyIsAHero Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. As long as its not the only country in the world, yes
It should have a "decent respect for world opinion" as our Constitution demans.
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LivingInTheBubble Donating Member (360 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. heres something for you to research.
When and why were hezbollah created.

If you oppress people they rise up. They may not be able to afford an air force but they will resist and attack.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. familiar with history--here is some info for you.
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 02:09 PM by Phx_Dem
Q: What are some of those motivational factors?

A: People tend to think of poverty and oppression as the things that breed terrorism. It's not that simple. Some of the best scholarship suggests that it is in fact the combination of seeing opportunities and feeling powerless to achieve them that is one of the most important factors. If you look at the places, especially in the Middle East, where terrorism has been a large-scale problem, it's often a place where people feel like things really could be better but we can't get there because someone's blocking our way. This notion of blocked aspirations is very powerful.

http://www.rps.psu.edu/inconversation/terror.html

This shouldnt be surprising. Terrorism, after all, is a behavioral phenomenon fostered by human agency. Someone decides to carry out a terrorist act, and is motivated enough to perpetrate the carnage, often to the point of taking her or his own life in the process. The killing of innocent civilians, workers in an office, passengers on planes or trains, or kids in pizzerias or discotheques is macabre and extreme. It simply cries out for a psychological explanation.

These varied considerations raise at least some doubts that (if not poverty or illiteracy then) political oppression is the root cause of terrorism. In fact, they raise the possibility that the search for unique root causes of terrorism, of whatever kind, is likely to prove disappointing. There is little doubt that poverty and oppression could be contributing factors to terrorism under some circumstances. But so could a large variety of motivations: religious fervor, nationalistic zeal, or the quest for personal glory (Sprinzak, 1998), even greed.

www.wam.umd.edu/~hannahk/SHORTENED%20DHS%20BOSTON%20TAL...


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KaptBunnyPants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. Of course, what a silly question.
Basing decisions on the affect it has one's reputation is the basis for the interaction of all social and intelligent life. People who behave in ways society views abhorrent are routinely killed or imprisoned. Nations who do so become weaker and more isolated until they collapse or comply. Just how long do you think Israel can rely on christofascists in our country for blind support? The rapturists will diminish as we get further from the Millennium.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Silly?
So everthing you do in life is based on what other people think you should do? Pretty pathetic dude.
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KaptBunnyPants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. You're no different. Its sad if you actually believe you are.
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 03:44 PM by KaptBunnyPants
If you didn't behave in a way deemed acceptable by your peers you would be in a prison cell right now, or a mental hospital. Look up feral children if you want to see what a person is like who isn't conditioned to adjust their behavior to society, even really cool uber-nonconformists like yourself who consistently stick it to the man are hardly the rugged individualists that you think you are.

You sound like you are stuck in a pre-modern mindset and haven't come to terms with the truth that people are just an animal with delusions of godhood. If so, let me remind you - you are not an island, you are not a unique and special snowflake. Almost (if not) everything you think you are was instilled in you by others, and not even on a consious level, and finally, no matter what Marilyn Manson says, you are not your own god. You are a "pathetic" balding primate which evolved from a plains dwelling bipedal ape, and were here for only the tiniest blip in time. You are not the least important, and when you are gone no one will truly miss you. The sooner you learn to accept that the better.

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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Hey, not bad, KaptBunnyPants! Good punch.
But, look: The average Yank (and Brit) may be quite thoroughly isolated within TV/Mall/Highway/Commuter-world angst.

But most of the rest of the world still has deep, very deep, social roots.

And, we're watching you (and our backs).
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KaptBunnyPants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Thanks, I'm glad someone is keeping an eye out for us.
I don't know how my entire country developed an anti-social disorder, I just hope civilization can carry on despite our madness.
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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #31
41. It sounds like you believe in moral
Absolutes. ('you are not an island, you are not a unique and special snowflake. Almost (if not) everything you think you are was instilled in you by others, and not even on a consious level, and finally, no matter what Marilyn Manson says, you are not your own god')

Every statement made by you is an absolute judgement....'You are not.... You are not'. No acknowlegement of speaking within your own meta-text. And, apparently, you believe that an objective 'truth' actually exists. "You sound like you are stuck in a pre-modern mindset and haven't come to terms with the TRUTH that people are just an animal with delusions of godhood." How do you know that YOUR truth is binding on others?

How utterly 'pre-modern' of you. Or should I have said 'pre POST-MODERN? You've fallen into Focault's trap. He coudn't get out. And neither can you.
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KaptBunnyPants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. I believe in science.
You can keep philosophy, it's a worthless subject that serves only to make people miserable with semantic games. If you believe in evolution, then the first branch of thought to be thrown away must be the person-centric universe. Anything less is just letting your egotism blind you to reality. And of course objective truth exists, there is a physical reality that we exist in, and we are dependent on it, not the other way around. Run and go play with Kant if you want to get involved in that silly "the universe doesn't exist until someone observes it" nonsense.
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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Correctly stated.
You BELIEVE in science. Welcome to the world of faith oh noble rationalist.
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KaptBunnyPants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. If you don't believe in science, then I see no reason to respect or care
about what you think.
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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. But I do BELIEVE in science.
I am also an atheist. And I can't stand Kant. (My philosophical heroes are Aristotle and.....Spinoza.)
Its not very scientific to jump to conclusions like you do.



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KaptBunnyPants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. I guess mistook your argument
I'm sorry, I've been laid out recovering for a few weeks with mainly just the internet to keep me company; perhaps I'm getting testy. I'm aware that I might be wrong about anything and everything I believe in as well, in fact, I half expect it. I just find it hard to live and argue effectively without shutting that out of my mind - it makes me too much of a milque-toast liberal. And I was responding to a poster who had just called me a pathetic follower, so I was already feeling combative and a caveat would have lessoned the blow.
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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Thank you
for such a courteous and civil response. I hope you feel better. Actually, I believe the scientific attitude, and REASON as defined by Aristotle and Spinoza are humankinds only real hope. I reacted badly to your absolutist (as I percieved it) remarks. I am sure I overreacted (not unusual for me). Please accept my apologies.
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KaptBunnyPants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. No problem, I'm sure it was at least half my fault.
nm
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
33. Yes, if it really is peace they want.
What they fail to see is that they are creating hatred by their actions and that's counterproductive.

Some of these children will grow up wanting revenge for the people who killed their parents.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. You all are completely missing my point
Terrorism does not spring from rational thinking. As such any explanation that considers it resulting from a cause and effect calculus is utterly wrong and simplistic.

My point in the earlier posts was that people make decisions based on their own self-interest, while some consideration should be given to outside factors, like "what others think" it is certainly not the main consideration.

This statement is hardly radical, whether you are an individual making a personal decision or an employee making a decision for the co. you work for, you decision is based on an analysis of all the factors, what Joe the yard guy or your Mom thinks is hardly relevant.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I'd hardly compare the civilians in Lebanon to
"Joe the yard guy". Those are the victims left behind after their parents are murdered.

And it IS in Israel's self interest to not breed hate in this war. After all, unless they can find a way to pick Israel up and move it elsewhere, those neighbors will be there always.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Yes my analogy had nothing to do with the ME
Let's try something else.

Say your loved one was a victim of a horrible crime that lead to his/her death, the perpetrator was caught, he is a known gang member with a long history of criminal behavior. Unfortunately the county atty. tells you and your family that they can not bring charges against this individual because there was a major mistake in the way the search warrant was executed. Because you and your family don't have a lot of financial resources or "clout" you have no recourse at this point.

What would you do? Would you go and hunt down the perp and "off" him? I'm guessing not, why?

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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
38. IMO...
The strategy that Israel is persuing has been demonstrated repeatedly to be one that does not work. Not just in general but right there in that conflict. For years and years and years Israel has operated on the princble that if they hit back 10 times as hard and destroy all kinds of infristructure, homes, bystanders, etc. that somehow palistinians will become so afraid of Israel that they stop attacking and turn on eachother for even thinking about it.
It would apear to me that this theory has been thoroughly debunked time and again.

On the other side the palistinians are also persuing a strategy that has been repeatedly shown not to work. However they may have less choice of strategy than the Israelies. First because they lack the money and infristructure to persue a diffrent one. But more importantly because they do not have the centralized control that Israel does.

Somebody needs to persue a diffrent strategy. IMO it won't happen unless Israel or the US initiates it.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. I don't think that's the strategy in Leb.
The stated goal is to destroy, degrade, erode Hisbullah so as to remove their ability to launch attacks against Israel.

Obviously, however one would characterize Israels involvement with the Palestinians, the overall "strategy" employed by Israel had not produced good results. I agree that the two sides need to develop something new, probably with third-party help, but right now I don't think Hamas is in any position/condition to present themselves as sincere in any negotiations.
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. well
that may be the intent but either way it has never worked for them.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
12. To the Idiots Who Support the Slaughter.... DUH!
a huge DUH. Anyone who cares about the folks in the middle east should support a cease fire, not more bloodshed. The bloodshed will last forever until no one is left standing. But hey.... power goes to the head for some, and appear to enjoy it all anyway.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
13. Anyone with half a brain knows this. Olmert and the rest of the rest of
the Neocons are brainless.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
14. K&R
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Tempest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
20. An ex-Israeli military commander said the same thing
He was on NPR yesterday (I didn't catch his name) and he said exactly the same thing.

He said Hezzbollah would melt into the citizenry if forced to, rebuild and live to fight another day.
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MikeyJones Donating Member (212 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
24. I don't think the Israelis are trying to destroy Hezbollah
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 12:33 PM by MikeyJones
They know they can't beat them but they can't say that politically or they'll lose the next election. They're just trying to "de-ball" Hizbollah for the next 5-10 years until the next Prime Minister comes into office and has to play the same game all over again.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
25. I hope the Finnish cut off relations with Israel over this.
I can always hope.
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Martti Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Personally, I already have.
I just hope my goverment follows...
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Martti Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. On the other hand...
Using the logic that we should sever ties with israel because of illegal war that causes abundant civilian casualties... We should sever ties with U.S. as well...

Oh well... crazy, crazy world
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