'Hizbullah committing war crimes' (Human Rights Watch)

[sabra]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525810863&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

'Hizbullah committing war crimes'


Hizbullah must immediately stop firing rockets into civilian areas in Israel, Human Rights Watch said Saturday.

"Lobbing rockets blindly into civilian areas is without doubt a war crime," said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. "Nothing can justify this assault on the most fundamental standards for sparing civilians the hazards of war."

"Most of the attacks appear to have been directed at civilian areas and have hit pedestrians, hospitals, schools, homes and businesses," the humanitarian organization's website stated.

Since July 12, when Hizbullah captured two IDF soldiers and killed eight, Human Rights Watch researchers have been documenting the war's impact on civilians in Israel and Lebanon, interviewing the witnesses and survivors of attacks, as well as doctors, emergency workers, police, military and government officials.

"Hizbullah must stop using the excuse of Israeli misconduct to justify its own," said Roth.

[MercutioATC]

1. Agreed...and so is Israel.

The underlying reasons for the conflict aside, BOTH Israel and Hezbollah are firing into civilian areas.

BOTH need to stop.

[dipsydoodle]

20. And both actually charged

with war crimes.

[AlamoDemoc]

27. Yes…but who is claiming the higher moral on this war…that is the question

[barb162]

57. But it's war, not a philosophy class

Isn't this about getting the other guy before he gets you?

[dipsydoodle]

68. According to UK news

interviews and comments from Israel the Israeli public are already conceding that Israel has lost the moral high ground and this is really all about Olbert asserting himself as being better those who have gone before him - wanker.

Edit - I wrote mortal high ground indtead of moral high ground !

[jpkenny]

42. If they had the weapons they could "aim" then I would go along with this

but Israel purposely aims a civilian targets and infrastructure, having the technology to do so. Hizbollah only has non-targeting missiles to launch in self-defense. The moral low ground belongs to Israel alone in my opinion. They have all the sophisticated weapons, are starving people, and preventing them from, living, working, and having sanitation, and water.

[MercutioATC]

45. A valid point.

However, Hezbollah KNOWS that their weapons are untargeted and is still pointing them at civilian areas.

I agree that Israel is on much shakier moral ground, but Hezbollah IS in violation too.

[brentspeak]

56. You mean Hizbollah doesn't know that they're killing civilians?

They logically assumed that their non-targeting missiles would hit only military targets?

Congrats on the dumb post of the day.

[Exiled in America]

88. No you miss the point

The point is that Hezbollah believes they have a legitimate cause to fight, but they don't have the tactical supremecy to selectively pick out military targets. They resist what they consider to be an oppressive occupier in the only way they can, with whatever they have.

I'm reminded of a quote from a tv show where a prisoner looked at a military captain who was calling him a violent terroist and said, "its always better when the oppressed don't fight back, isn't it?"

That's what you're basically saying. You're saying that the only acceptable option for Hezbollah is to not fight. That's ridiculous. They believe that they've been wronged by Israel, of course they're going to fight back, and fight back just like we would if we believed our lands were being occupied by an agressor -- with everything they have, which isn't much at all.

[brentspeak]

94. And congrats to you -- you win the Dumb Post of Sunday

Not only did Hizbollah illegally cross the border into Israel and kidnap two Israeli soldiers (and kill a few other Israeli soldiers), but it's Hizbollah, not Israel, who's the "illegal occupier"; Hizbollah has disregarded UN demands to disband and is illegally occupying southern Lebanon. Even Lebanon's official army can't even venture to Hizbollah-held territory.

The other guy won the Dumb Post For Saturday, but you're the lucky winner for today.

[Exiled in America]

96. There's plenty of illegality to go around

Both sides have plently of reasons to fight, both sides have plenty of illegalities under their belt.

[barb162]

58. Hezbollah is aiming at civilian areas whereas Israel is aiming

at Hezbollah and its infrastructure.
"Lobbing rockets blindly into civilian areas is without doubt a war crime..."

[Lerkfish]

76. then Israel's aim leaves a lot to be desired.

[heliarc]

86. My favorite defense of Israel...

claims that they only use precision guided "smart" bombs that cannot be killing civilians because the intelligence is so good that there can't be errors...

So WTF is this kind of stuff:

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=6725

Where journalists keep getting caught in the crossfire. Please.

Or this kind of stuff:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2006/07/26/1153816215215.html

Where UN workers are bombed.

If their weapons are so accurate than this must be deliberate. If they aren't so accurate than well.. They're just as guilty as the Hezbollah.

Sorry, can't have it both ways.

I tend to think that an Air War is difficult to conduct humanely once you deal with Military targets and Infrastructure. After that its highly inhumane IMHO.

[Exiled in America]

87. That's crap.

Both Hezbollah and Israel *TARGET* Civilians.

Go to human rights watch and just start reading. Or go to any other major human rights monitoring agency and read.

If you really want to tell the truth, you need to say that Hezbollah doesn't have the tactical ability or money to make surgical precision military strikes so it fights what it considers an oppressor in whatever ways it can. Then you need to also say that Israel needs to defend itself but does not have clear and good targets for countering Hezbollah because they blend in with the civilian population.

The end result is that both sides "target" civilian populations while trying to accomplish greater aims.

[zreosumgame]

91. that 'infrastucture' you cite includes UN observers

babies and lots of innocent people trapped there either by Hezbollah or the IDF shooting at people trying to escape the area. Dead if they do, dead if they don't

GFY for defending either side in this.

[barb162]

60. I think their aim is to kill as many Israelis as they can

If they were so concerned about the inaccuracy of their missiles, they wouldn't be launching them to the tune of about 200 a day.

[MidwestTransplant]

70. Hezbollah is acting in Self defense? Are you joking?

Who do you think initiated this.

You don't think that if Mexico was firing Katusha rockets from Tiajuana we would be bombing targets in Tijuana? If you lived in San Diego, would you ask the government not to try to stop the missiles?

[Exiled in America]

89. Actually, friend - Israel iniated this.

You just don't know that because you get your news from the US media.

"Gaza, itself, the latest phase, began on June 24. It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother. We don't know their names. You don’t know the names of victims. They were taken to Israel, presumably, and nobody knows their fate. The next day, something happened, which we do know about, a lot. Militants in Gaza, probably Islamic Jihad, abducted an Israeli soldier across the border. That’s Corporal Gilad Shalit. And that's well known; first abduction is not. Then followed the escalation of Israeli attacks on Gaza, which I don’t have to repeat. It’s reported on adequately.

The next stage was Hezbollah's abduction of two Israeli soldiers, they say on the border. Their official reason for this is that they are aiming for prisoner release. There are a few, nobody knows how many. Officially, there are three Lebanese prisoners in Israel. There's allegedly a couple hundred people missing. Who knows where they are?"

[onenote]

90. WTF does Gaza have to do with Hezbollah?

I keep hearing how Hezbollah is just defending Lebanons border and citizens because the Lebanese army is for shit. Okay. But Gaza is well over hundred miles south of Israel's border with Lebanon. So what the fuck rationale does Hezbollah have for responding to actions in Gaza? Not a threat to Lebanon. Not even close.

[brentspeak]

95. Thank you. The poster you responded to has absolutely no idea

what he/she is talking about concerning this issue.

[Clarkie1]

93. So only if Hezbollah were not embedded with civilians

would you you "go along" with Israel being accused of war crimes, I presume.

[IndianaGreen]

2. You both are!

and this war has to be stopped now!

[OKthatsIT]

37. Remember who profits and who loses by these attacks

I saw a film online recently that all people in the world should see, especially Americans. It's called, "Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land"

I want peace...and getting to the heart of the problem is the only way to find peace. As long as we allow ourselves to be blindsided by media propaganda, the wars will continue. Once we REALLY LOOK....and see...we will have peace in the world.

"Hurricane Winds" Alan Watt, 7/19/06 (Audio): http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com/audio/Alan_Watt_Recording_071906_16.mp3

"Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land" (Video):
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696&q=peace,%20propaganda

"Terror Storm" Alex Jones(video):
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4757274759497686216

[Poll_Blind]

3. "...without a doubt a war crime". Absolutely. n/t

PB

[atreides1]

4. Seems fair to me

Wasn't it HRW that also accused the Israeils of committing war crimes by targeting non-military areas. At least HRW is nailing both sides for their transgressions, unlike some here who can't see the forest before the trees.

Thanks for posting this.

[mike_c]

5. HRW condemns war crimes on both sides...

...of this conflict:

http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/

Fatal Strikes
Israel’s Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon

This report documents serious violations of international humanitarian law (the laws of war) by Israel Defense Forces (IDF) in Lebanon between July 12 and July 27, 2006, as well as the July 30 attack in Qana. During this period, the IDF killed an estimated 400 people, the vast majority of them civilians, and that number climbed to over 500 by the time this report went to print. The Israeli government claims it is taking all possible measures to minimize civilian harm, but the cases documented here reveal a systematic failure by the IDF to distinguish between combatants and civilians.

Since the start of the conflict, Israeli forces have consistently launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military gain but excessive civilian cost. In dozens of attacks, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target. In some cases, the timing and intensity of the attack, the absence of a military target, as well as return strikes on rescuers, suggest that Israeli forces deliberately targeted civilians.

The Israeli government claims that it targets only Hezbollah, and that fighters from the group are using civilians as human shields, thereby placing them at risk. Human Rights Watch found no cases in which Hezbollah deliberately used civilians as shields to protect them from retaliatory IDF attack. Hezbollah occasionally did store weapons in or near civilian homes and fighters placed rocket launchers within populated areas or near U.N. observers, which are serious violations of the laws of war because they violate the duty to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian casualties. However, those cases do not justify the IDF’s extensive use of indiscriminate force which has cost so many civilian lives. In none of the cases of civilian deaths documented in this report is there evidence to suggest that Hezbollah forces or weapons were in or near the area that the IDF targeted during or just prior to the attack.

By consistently failing to distinguish between combatants and civilians, Israel has violated one of the most fundamental tenets of the laws of war: the duty to carry out attacks on only military targets. The pattern of attacks during the Israeli offensive in Lebanon suggests that the failures cannot be explained or dismissed as mere accidents; the extent of the pattern and the seriousness of the consequences indicate the commission of war crimes.

more@link

[IndianaGreen]

7. giyus.org megaphones always ignore Israel's crimes

They scream about misdemeanors to distract us from their felonies.

[Magical]

6. 'War Crime' Meaningless

When ALL morality is thrown away, there is nothing left.
When treaties are broken, there is no trust left.
When I do the same act I condemn, I must condemn myself.
I can not kill my hatred within by killing that which I hate.

Magical

[burythehatchet]

8. Notwithstanding the fact that its in the Jerusalem Rag

I agree wholeheartedly.

[IndianaGreen]

9. ALL UN resolutions on the Middle East should be enforced!

Starting with Security Council Resolution 242.

[Pavulon]

17. The will happen when socal goes back to mexico.

dont start a war you cant win. Dont cry when you lose land.

They lost in the pan arab war. Egypt was lucky to get its desert back.

[burythehatchet]

28. Context is slightly different in light of the unique circumstances

that occasioned the formation of Israel.

[IndianaGreen]

38. The irony is that it was a UN resolution which gave birth to Israel

that same Israel now ignores UN resolutions that call for withdrawing from lands taken in 1967.

[burythehatchet]

43. and the tragedy is that by setting this example of non-compliance

other nations feel they have the right to do the sam. The double standard is what dooms our every international objective.

[AlamoDemoc]

49. If I were not history reader, you would lie to me in my face too.

[w4rma]

75. Richard "Prince of Darkness" Perle is a Director of the Jerusalem Post. nt

[JAYJDF]

10. War crimes? WTF, over. Any charges of war crimes must start

with the leaders of the US! Just how many innocents have been killed in Iraq?

And what about Israel? I remember seeing pics of ambulances being blown up my their aircraft.
I also recall UN forces being attacked by Israel.

Stop this one sided BS!

[IndianaGreen]

14. Terrorism must be stopped, starting with the terrorism of the Occupation

The world must impose the rule of law on the Middle East, by ending the Occupation of lands taken in 1967, exchanging prisoners, compensating victims, and putting an international force straddling the borders of the nations in that part of the Middle East.

[scarletwoman]

33. Calm down. HWR already published their report on Israeli war crimes

a few days ago. Someone else in this thread has posted the link to it.

sw

[uppityperson]

11. I agree, don't justify own wrong behavior by behavior of others

[AlamoDemoc]

12. As always every one knows international group such as...

...Human Right Watch would want to condemn on both side...yet evidence exists on the ground.

[DoYouEverWonder]

13. There's certainly plenty of wrong to pass around

That's why the world needs the leadership of a country like the US used to be, to get both sides to stop and come to the table. Instead, the Bush Misadmininistration wants to give Israel as much time as possible to finish destroying Lebanon.

[IndianaGreen]

16. It no longer matters who started what, we must stop this war!

I blame Jacob in conning Esau of his rightful inheritance for a bowl of lentils.

[DoYouEverWonder]

22. Actually

I blame Abraham for picking the wrong god to follow. At least, from a gnostic POV, this is the basis for most of the world's problems at the moment.

[Zhade]

24. I blame mankind for creating gods to worship.

Next, we can blame the primordial ooze for creating life!

:silly:

[DoYouEverWonder]

30. If you study the history of the three major religions

they all claim to be descendent's of Abraham. The god of Abraham is a vengeful god, who has no problem reigning down death and destruction upon his own people. Nice guy, not. It is no surprise that 5000 years later we are still all at each others throats.

[IndianaGreen]

39. Monotheism is by nature intolerant

Paganism is by nature tolerant of multiple religious beliefs.

Religion is the drug of choice of the masses, according to Marx.

[Zhade]

51. If gods existed, I sure wouldn't worship THAT murderous POS!

NT!

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoYouEverWonder]

53. You would think that would have been the first clue

that something wasn't right?

Nice how Abraham was able to find the escape clause right at the last minute, yet he still gets all the blessings.

[barb162]

63. Um Nidal (hamas legislator) has sent her sons out for suicide

attacks; she was rcently elected by the Palestinians. Re your question:"Who else would take a dagger to his son in sacrifice?"

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1536576
Suicide Bombers' Mother Elected to Palestinian Parliament 'Mother of the Struggle' Says She Would Sacrifice Remaining Sons for Jihad

[HysteryDiagnosis]

44. Some expensive lentils.... hope it was a rather large bowl... n/t

[Robb]

74. The magic beans of a different era. n/t

[HysteryDiagnosis]

77. Oh yeah...... what a great childhood adventure that fable was, if

only it were only a fable and not an example of indigenous peoples getting hoodwinked as well.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

18. Two IDF soldiers captured on israeli soil? Those guys??

war sucks. don't slap a guy who can stomp your ass in the mouth and not expect a response.


Don't start what you cant finish. Hizbolla bit off to much.

[Zhade]

52. Or maybe inside Lebanon.

I don't think we have the full story, frankly.

[AlamoDemoc]

55. The truth is that the IOF interred Lebanon territory first

Afterward, they (Israelis) came to claim their captured soldiers, and four more were killed in their tank. That is the official truth....unless you have been intone to CNN, and Mr. Wolf AKA former AIPAK representative.

[cali]

62. Again, that makes little sense

The captured Israelis were in a jeep. That they'd be in a jeep, in such a vulnerable position, on the Lebanese side of the border, beggers belief. In addition, how do you explain the P.M. saying last night on Charlie Rose, that H'zbollah crossed into Israel to capture the soldiers? He's hardly pro-Israel, and in fact, his remarks were uniformly scathing about the Israeli attack on his country. In addition, H'zbollah, with a very sophisticated P.R. arm, has not denied crossing the border.

[AlamoDemoc]

66. Hezbollah never, never crosses into Israel, because they cannot

Therefore, the idea that Hezbollah crossed into Israel territory and captured two Israeli soldiers is a lie.

[cali]

69. LOL

and you're privy to all of H'zbollah's moves? Do you know how silly that sounds? Now try answering my questions: 1) Why did the P.M. state unequivocally that H'zbollah crossed into Israel to conduct the raid? and 2) Why hasn't H'zbollah denied that they crossed into Israel?

[OKthatsIT]

82. You are not alone with this thought

....it is possible we're being bamboozled.

[barb162]

83. You wouldn't have a link for that, would you?

Seeing as how the poster in 69, cali, said the Lebanese PM said they did cross into Israeli territory.

[OrechDin]

71. Maybe the `IOF` did (whoever they are) BUT, the IDF were

firmly on Israeli territory when 2 of their soldiers were abducted by these terrorists looking for a fight,and thats exactly what they got and what they wanted.

[msmcghee]

78. Completely untrue.

UN Report:

3. The crisis started when, around 9 a.m. local time, Hizbollah launched several rockets from Lebanese territory across the withdrawal line (the so-called Blue Line) towards Israel Defense Forces (IDF) positions near the coast and in the area of the Israeli town of Zarit. In parallel, Hizbollah fighters crossed the Blue Line into Israel and attacked an IDF patrol. Hizbollah captured two IDF soldiers, killed three others and wounded two more. The captured soldiers were taken into Lebanon. Subsequent to the attack on the patrol, a heavy exchange of fire ensued across the Blue Line between Hizbollah and IDF. While the exchange of fire stretched over the entire length of the Line, it was heaviest in the areas west of Bint Jubayl and in the Shab'a farms area. Hizbollah targeted IDF positions and Israeli towns south of the Blue Line. Israel retaliated by ground, air and sea attacks. In addition to airstrikes on Hizbollah positions, IDF targeted numerous roads and bridges in southern Lebanon within and outside the UNIFIL area of operations. IDF has stated that those attacks were to "prevent Hizbollah from transferring the abducted soldiers". At least one IDF tank and an IDF platoon crossed into Lebanon in the area of the Hizbollah attack in an attempt to rescue the captured soldiers. An explosive device detonated under the tank, killing four more IDF soldiers. An eighth IDF soldier was reportedly killed in fighting that ensued during an attempt to retrieve the four bodies. That night, the IDF issued a warning to UNIFIL that any person — including United Nations personnel — moving close to the Blue Line would be shot at.

Report of the Secretary-General on the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (For the period from 21 January 2006 to 18 July 2006)

[Zhade]

25. True, but Hezbollah is as wrong to target civilians as the IDF is.

NT!

[barb162]

64. Purposely targetting civilians is wrong...yes,

[Zhade]

67. ...as is indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas.

Both sides are doing that, both are to be condemned, and both need to cease-fire immediately. Stop the pointless killing!

[Missy M]

19. In all fairness you should have posted their statement....

condemning Israel too. What is your motive for not?

[OKNancy]

31. Because it would be a duplicate

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2437140

[Missy M]

32. Then both posters should have put up both...

condemnations.

[MercutioATC]

46. If they want to be unbiased, yes...

...however, the opposing view is what the rest of us are here for...

[Lerkfish]

21. I assume if you accept HRW charges against Hezbollah

you must also perforce accept them against Israel.

[IndianaGreen]

26. The Israel Lobby considers HRW to be anti-Semitic

They also hate Amnesty International and the UN.

Do you detect a pattern here?

[Zhade]

23. Yes, this isn't a surprise to those of us who also condemn Israel's crimes.

They're both committing them, and the killing on both sides needs to stop NOW!

[mike_c]

29. drive by post...?

Lots of good replies to the OP, but no responses from the OP. :wtf:

[onenote]

92. Huh? Is there a rule I missed somewhere

requiring an OP on LBN to respond to posts? Get a grip.

[OKNancy]

34. LBN posters

Do not attack the poster of an article and question their motives.
In sabra's case, he has probably been the most prolific and careful poster of LBN articles in the last two years.

Thank you sabra for all your hard work and for bringing various articles about all subjects to LBN.

[jonnyblitz]

35. yes, I always read sabra's threads and I completely agree!

I have seen topics critical of both sides posted by sabra!

I appreciate his contribution to the debate and thank him. :thumbsup:

[Missy M]

36. No one is attacking the poster, just asking questions.....

I am seeking fairness in the Israel/Lebanon crisis debate and many times I don't see it.

[Burried News]

48. Yes agree. Sabra works hard to keep this board moving.

Thanks Sabra.

[sabra]

79. and thank you, for making this one of the best political forums out there.

sabra :hug:

[maddezmom]

85. thanks again, sabra

:hug: for keeping LBN, LBN. :)

[AnnieBW]

40. Well, duh!

They should stop using civilians as human shields, too. But they don't give a rat's ass what human rights organizations say.

[wakeme2008]

41. Total BS.... these are unguided missles....

They land where they land.... Israel has Army post next to civilian hospitals.. Duh.....

[MysteryToMyself]

50. This could go on until hell freezes over

Thinking that Israel was so powerful with their bunker busting bombs and drones and sattelites with night vision where they can see exactly where to put their precision bombs, I thought that Hezbollah would be ready for a ceasefire. They lob their cheap unguided bombs and most go to the woods or in the river.

Bolten and France have came up with a cease fire that is biased for Israel's favor, but of all things, Hezbollah isn't co-operating. They say they will not stop until all Israel soldiers leave.

People are protesting against Israel all over the world. It is promising to get ugly. Israel is ready to bomb Sidon.

That is the trouble with war, things change in a minute's notice.

The republicans strutted in and were going to show us how it was done. All I see is what we shouldn't do. It looks like it us and Israel against the world. That isn't what I would have chosen, had I been asked. We shouldn't have been put in this position by strutting egos that are ignorant to the ways of the world. :nuke:

[IndianaGreen]

54. Americans should stop including Israel when saying "we"!

Israel's war in Lebanon is hurting America and putting US troops in Iraq in grave danger with the Shia majority.

[adriennui]

65. the americans have been in danger from the shia and the sunnis

in iraq. the soon er we get out the sooner we won't suffer casualties.


let the sunni and shia populace sort this one out.

[IndianaGreen]

81. US should have never gone to war against Iraq!

The Baathists were the natural deterrent to Shia radicalism and Iranian influence. Because of the neocon conspiracy we created conditions in Iraq that put Iran in a strong strategic position, while our military has become demoralized and broken by nearly 4 years of warfare.

[OrechDin]

72. Should the Majority of American Jews or world Jewry (vast majority) also

stop saying `We` when referring to Israel?

I and my family and friends have that `nasty` habit too.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OrechDin]

84. I am not American ,nor Israeli

Jewish yes, 1st and foremost.

[barb162]

59. "Lobbing rockets blindly into civilian areas is without doubt a war crime

That says it all!

[anotherdrew]

61. no more guns or bombs, let's demand it's all kung-fu from here on out

that should solve these problems

[Ian David]

73. Lokai and Bella n/t