Bush*s Remark About God Assailed

[kskiska]

Saturday, November 22, 2003; Page A06

Evangelical Christian leaders expressed dismay yesterday over President Bush's statement that Christians and Muslims worship the same god, saying it had caused discomfort within his conservative religious base. But most predicted that the political impact would be short-lived.

At a news conference with Prime Minister Tony Blair in England on Thursday, a reporter noted that Bush has often said that freedom is a gift from "the Almighty" but questioned whether Bush believes that "Muslims worship the same Almighty" that he does.

"I do say that freedom is the Almighty's gift to every person," the president replied. "I also condition it by saying freedom is not America's gift to the world. It's much greater than that, of course. And I believe we worship the same god."

Bush's remarks sent immediate shock waves through Christian Web sites and radio broadcasts. A Baptist Press report quoted Richard D. Land, president of the public policy arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant denomination, as saying that Bush "is simply mistaken."

more…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4697-2003Nov21.html

[onebigbadwulf]

1. AHAHAHah

Goddamn religious nuts. They make me so mad.

[DemVet]

59. How offensive.

Religious nuts? Do you mean the Christians or the Muslims?

[soleft]

68. He probably means fundamentalists of any faith

THey are the offense

[info being]

109. or maybe he just meant

religious nuts.

[La_Serpiente]

2. My eyebrows went up like a volcano

when I heard that. First of all, he ain't no theologian. Second of all, he pissed off Evangilicals and Muslims at the same time. Third, why the hell did he say that? Allah is totally different than the Western God. There are relationships, but not totally related.

[benddem]

6. They are the same!

[Scott Lee]

7. Sorry, they are the same God. Judaism/Islam/Christianity

This is one frustrating case in which McChimp is right. Don't worry, it surely was an accident.

[Bandit]

112. I thought Christians believed Christ was God

Christ and not Jehova. They are quite different

[A HERETIC I AM]

14. The god of Islam is the god of Abraham and Isaac

Same god as xtianity and Judaism. Just different marketing programs.

It kills me that many/most fundies in this country dont get that. It just goes to show how poorly educated they are about the history of their religion.

[A Texas Democrat]

15. *nods*

Ever heard about Ishmael? The illegtimate son of Abraham that God promised He would make a great people out of? Enter the Arabs.

YAHWEH=JEHOVA=ALLAH

It's kind of depressing that some evangelicals and fundamentalists have integrated current events and politics into their faith, and vice-versa.

[aquart]

20. Well, yes, that was the rewrite.

Mohammed hitched the arab wagon to the Judeo Christian star when he dashed off the Koran.

However, Allah was formerly Allat. And Allat was a female deity.

[NickB79]

26. Who says God isn't female?

Who says God has a sex at all? After all, what sex would a god be?

[Virginian]

30. I don't think God has a gender, but I don't like the pronoun "IT"

What would God need sex organs for?
Who needs procreation when you have creation available -- much faster and you don't need the cooperation of another.

[stevedeshazer]

31. Who

Was God's Mom?

[Liberator_Rev]

78. Any Catholic will tell you Mary was God's Mother.

She was just born billions of years after God, who never actually had a beginning. Ask THEM to explain it all to you.

[Classical_Liberal]

86. Uhm Methodist believe in the Trinity as well

and they believe Jesus is God. In fact every Christian you are trying to attract believes this. Why are you dissing Catholics only? Shouldn't you become a unitarian or a gnostic?

[absolutezero]

104. only one of the three

the trinity is a weird concept, one god has three different entities, one of which is jesus, who had a mother.
and what's with the catholic bashing?

[PsychoDad]

44. You are correct

In Islam God has no gender. God is not Human, but "it" just sounds so... Impersonal?

Allah is simply arabic for "The God" it is a genderless noun.

[LiberalFighter]

80. Right

And if man was created first then why the need for sexual organs? According to the Bible it appears that woman was an afterthought.

If woman was created first... again why the need for sexual organs?

[nofurylike]

27. yes, but so was g*d. n/t

[Teaser]

42. You're talking like Allah and Allat are continuous

Al-lah is simply a contraction of "The God" in arabic. Attaching a "t" to the end of the root "lh" to get "lahat" (extrapolated) or "lat" (actual) is the conventional arabic feminizing suffix. But all this means is "The Goddess." I don't see any reason to believe that they refer to the same entity. One is simply an abstract male god, the other an abstract female goddess. It's not as if Mohammed was attempting to feminize an actual female divinity by using the term "The God". They could be (and in my opinion are) distinct entities being referenced by their gender as one (but not the only) differentiating characteristic.

[Classical_Liberal]

62. Allah is an Arab variant on elohim

both were probably variations of enlil the Babylonian head god.

[LiberalFighter]

81. Isn't elohim the plural form of god [gods]

nt

[Classical_Liberal]

87. no

elohim was a deity.

[LiberalFighter]

92. According to one source it is the Hebrew word for god

Elohim: Plural or Singular?

[SilasSoule]

21. Welcom to DU Texas Democrat

It's about time a Texas Democrat from the Rio Grande Valley checked in. My family has it' roots in the Valley (Weslaco).

[calimary]

38. EXCELLENT! "Just different marketing programs" - GREAT quote!

You nailed it! What a great description! That's EXACTLY what it is - a different marketing program. It's all in the sales - and the sales staff.

[A HERETIC I AM]

71. Thanks! I made it myself! n/t

[devinsgram]

89. I like that,

"just different marketing programs" way to go. This is one I will remember for future reference.

[PsychoDad]

43. The Chimp is right.

It is the God of Abraham. One God. "Hear oh Israel, The Lord your God is One", echoed by Moses and Christ. Shouldn't upset Muslims, as it is the foundation of our monotheism.. It is the Evangelical christans who claim the monopoly on their very own version of God. A version of God that belongs only to them.
Interesting gaffe(?) by Bush. Wonder if his handelers attempted to let him know how this would imflame the religous right?
The Fallwell, er sorry, fallout from this could be interesting. Puts another chink in the "appointed by God" facade that they worship.

[xray s]

3. Heretic!

Bring me THE RACK!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

58. You posted when I was least expecting it!

[neuvocat]

4. Do they think liberals will forgive him

and save his hide? Not after he's crossed them too many times.

[Scott Lee]

5. Wow, when did Southern Baptists become so shabbily informed?

I guess they don't put these guys through divinity school anymore?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

17. When they allowed themselves to become a cult.

[SharonAnn]

67. They don't have to go to Divinity School or have theological

education. And Southern Baptist Divinity Schools aren't always thorough enough.

They're just "called". Hopefully, they decide to get some education but maybe not.

As Bob Bullock supposedly said (Lt. Gov of Texas) "The trouble with our Southern Baptists is that we don't hold them under long enough."

[DuctapeFatwa]

8. LOL You gotta love it when monotheists talk about "different" Gods

Admittedly, the concept of One is not an easy one.

And in all fairness, even on this site, there were a couple of threads last week that showed that a surprising amount of people have read neither Bible nor Koran, and I would speculate that this board has a higher % of readers, on the average than the Southern Baptist Convention.

[Jacobin]

9. Irony is lost on soothsayers.

[soothsayer]

34. hey!!

is not....!

[opihimoimoi]

11. The Kahuna sez they be cousins

Come, we look the family tree thing

[Voltaire99]

25. I love the smell of monotheists in the morning.

Over Bush's twaddle, I prefer Norman Mailer's take on the clash of civilizations: a struggle "between Allah and Moolah." ;-)

[SpiralHawk]

36. The concept of one? Yahweh was just one of the Elohim

Check it out early on in Genesis. Yahweh was not One God, but one of the gods -- one of the Elohim, a plural noun. So much for Judeo-Christain monotheism.

[Chovexani]

37. Let us make man in "our" image

Fundies never want to talk about that line...

[Teaser]

45. YHWH is not Elohim, nor one of the Elohim.

Only Elohim is himself referred as Elohim. Some have argued (not entirely convincingly) that the plural name implies multiplicity on his part, that he was only one of a pantheon collectively referred to as the Elohim, and use the "we" in the first chapter of Genesis to support this fact. I doubt that. Plurals are regularly transformed to singulars in language, and not intended to indicate actual plurality. Take the word "moms" in contemporary inner city slang ("Your moms, shes so fat...") it is plural in form, but singular in intent. Also, the royal "we"... It seems more likely that Elohim is talking to the Beni Elohim (sons of Elohim), later (and incorrectly, imo) referred to as "angels".

But in any event YHWH is a distinct entity from Elohim, with a distinct set of traditions. They are glommed together in the first two chapters of Genesis, and construed to refer to the same god, but are quite clearly distinct throughout the entire books of Genesis and Exodus. Elohim is the god of an intellectual and priestly tradition, while YHWH is a more "emotive" god.

The two are further conflated because of the hebrew practice of not pronouncing the tetragrammaton YHWH. It was often interspersed with the vowels from the word Adonai (Lord), to remind the reader to say "Adonai" when reading YHWH. It is these letters that have led to the bastardized pronounciation Jehovah, a god that was never worshipped anywhere.

[54anickel]

55. My understanding, as interpreted for me by a human, as were all

the "Good books" (God didn't use a dictaphone):
Genesis was most likely written by Moses. As the common religious beliefs of the time were Pagan and multiple gods, this was Moses' "Marketing strategy" to spread the belief and understanding of One God. From there he moves on into the idea of this one god being the creator, there you are introduced to Adam (translates into man-kind) and Eve.
JMHO, I'm not a theologian.

[foo_bar]

60. your Elohim's so fat, they had to rest their butt for a whole day

Take the word "moms" in contemporary inner city slang ("Your moms, shes so fat...") it is plural in form, but singular in intent.

I thought it was a contraction of "mom is", as in, "your mom's so fat, ...".

Also, the royal "we"... It seems more likely that Elohim is talking to the Beni Elohim (sons of Elohim), later (and incorrectly, imo) referred to as "angels".

I'd tend to agree if Deuteronomy wasn't so defensive about it ("The LORD our Elohim is one"). It's probably used collectively (as in The United States) instead of royally/reverently, but all we have is teleology now.

[Teaser]

74. Some replies

I thought it was a contraction of "mom is", as in, "your mom's so fat, ...".

I doubt it, as it is used in constructions like "I called your moms last night", and "Say hello to your moms for me." But even so, its a plural-looking form (even if only by misattributed back formation) used in a singular sense. There isn't necessarily any reason to think otherwise of the hebrew term.

I'd tend to agree if Deuteronomy wasn't so defensive about it ("The LORD our Elohim is one"). It's probably used collectively (as in The United States) instead of royally/reverently, but all we have is teleology now.

Maybe, but Deuteronomy is younger than the oldest fragments of Genesis. More than enough time to fully conflate YHWH (LORD) with Elohim.

[foo_bar]

96. not quite LBN but

But even so, its a plural-looking form (even if only by misattributed back formation) used in a singular sense. There isn't necessarily any reason to think otherwise of the hebrew term.

As Hebrew lacks plural-sounding homophones, there's no evidence that Eloh<im> is anything other than the masculine plural. In fact, it's often accompanied by plural verb formations and pronouns (see Psalm 82).

Deuteronomy is younger than the oldest fragments of Genesis. More than enough time to fully conflate YHWH (LORD) with Elohim.

That's my point: that declaration of reflexiveness appears to be an afterthought, not the original intent.

[psychopomp]

54. Bible-thumpers

tend to be very well-versed in the Bible. They may not read anything else, but those that I have known know their Bible cover to cover. DU'ers, on the other hand, may mostly be inclined to read anything *but* the Bible.

[Classical_Liberal]

63. I find very few fundies have even read the bible

. They only parts of it if they do read it at all.

[psychopomp]

84. I've lived in the Bible Belt

Just posting from what I know. :shrug:

[mikehiggins]

10. Wrong, wrong, wrong

Christians (or most of them) beleive Christ is God.

Jews do not.

Moslems do not.

Christians (or most of them) beleive there is no salvation except through Christ.

Jews do not.

Moslems do not.

Bush is so totally wrong and (if there is any justice in this universe whatsoever) he is so TOTALLY screwed by his heresy that my heart leaps with joy!

What will Jimmy Swaggart et al say now? That our Imperial Leader was possessed by a demon? That he lied? Or should we just forgive him his error like we forgive Rush for being a druggie?

I can't wait to see how this one plays out.

[A HERETIC I AM]

16. Sorry, but the head of the trinity is the God of Abraham

God the father is the god of Abraham and Isaac. The EXACT same diety revered by Judaism and Islam. If you think otherwise, i am sorry to say, you are "Wrong Wrong Wrong".

BTW, "Allah is merely Arabic for "god"
It isnt a different god, like Zeus or Mithra
I got the following from a quick "Ask Jeeves" search

The word Allah in the Arabic language means God, or more
accurately The One and Only Eternal God, Creator of theUniverse,
Lord of all lords, King of all kings, MostCompassionate, Most
Merciful.

[foo_bar]

18. ergo Bush is a born-again heretic

or stared at the ceiling in church. It's easy for us secular types to say "God is God", but equating "The Father" to "the unconsubstantiated God of Abraham" is a central heresy to the capital-C Church for 16 centuries. I won't argue that it makes a lick of sense, because it seems like an end-run around polytheism to me, but Christians' profession of monotheism requires the Adonai/Elohim guy to be one third of a putatively monotheistic trinity, retroactively ("co-eternally").

[Scott Lee]

19. Nope.

How could Christ conceive himself, father himself and then pray to himself without being perceived as the most fanmus schizophrenic in history? Sorry, the only self-birthing God archetypes are among the Pagans (see ancient Egypt and the birth from the primordial hill of the androgynous Atum).

The fact remains that there is one single God that the Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship - whether they want to kill each other or not.

[AntiCoup2K4]

22. Mormon theology covers that question.

How could Christ conceive himself, father himself and then pray to himself without being perceived as the most fanmus schizophrenic in history?

The creation account in Genesis clearly says "Let US make man in OUR image". "Us" and "Our", of course, are plural terms. In the original Hebrew, the creator in Genesis is called "Elohim", but in other parts of the old testament, it's Yahweh, or the English translation Jehova who is referred to . New Testament references to Christ also parallell many of the OT references to Yahweh/Jehova.

The LDS church's explanation is that Elohim is God the Father, and that Jehova is His Son, who came to Earth as Jesus Christ.

I don't neccessarily endorse the theory, as I'm not Mormon, but it does seem a plausible explanation of how Jesus could be praying to his Father and still be God in the flesh Himself.

My own take on it is that God cares less about WHAT you call Him than HOW you live your professed belief in Him.

[foo_bar]

23. it isn't about rationalism

How could Christ conceive himself, father himself and then pray to himself without being perceived as the most fanmus schizophrenic in history?

One of the central tenets of Christianity is Christ's "coeternal" status, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" in Paul's words. In other words, Christ was declared retroactively to have existed from the beginning of time ("In the beginning was the Word" per John 1:1), rendering the Old Testament conception of God incomplete (and by itself, heretical), post facto. You can call it a "self-birthing" phenomenon if you consider "Father/Son" a strict biological metaphor, but early theologians were more concerned with political hegemony than resolving apparent paradoxes.

Phylogenically speaking, Allah's connection to the God of Abraham is a revisionist convergence; the word isn't a "translation" of God so much as a linguistic divergence from an earlier Sumerian tradition (the plural "Elohim" is also a paean to polytheism, but a parallel tradition). For all his ecumenical intentions, Bush was clearly preaching to the wrong choir. He's always spoken of religion as though it were some kind of exotic petting zoo.

[sandnsea]

29. Catholic Christians believe it's all the same God

And that all worshippers have a piece of truth in their worship of the one God, but that the coomplete fullness of the knowledge of God can only come through Christianity and most specifically, Catholicism.

[LiberalFighter]

82. Isn't that wrong??

Worshipping Christ over God the Father?

The focus is more on Christ instead of God as mentioned in Genesis. And where is Christ specifically first mentioned in the Old Testament?

[Classical_Liberal]

88. Why are you a methodist?

They believe in the Trinity as well.

[LiberalFighter]

93. Raised Lutheran

Is there any mention of the trinity in the Old Testament?

What happens to the commandment not to worship any other god?

[DuctapeFatwa]

98. Christians believe Christ is a manifestation of the Original Recipe God

being of one substance, proceeding from, etc.

Jews believe Jesus was a great teacher and philosopher, but not divine, Muslims believe he was a great prophet, same as Mohammed, therefore not divine.

But all 3 versions of the Abrahamic OS run on the same BIOS, they are all talking about the same supreme being, regardless of what name they use to refer to that being, and regardless of how loudly and heatedly they argue with each other about whose prophet rocks harder.

[PsychoDad]

102. Very Techie ;)

Great way of putting the relationship into perspective

[goforit]

12. May those phoney christians know who their phoney leader is.

I say no more!!!

[Pale_Rider]

13. And among the Christian sects all arguing over ...

... that "My Jesus is better than your Jesus". Will the real Jesus please stand up!

[Tiger Tank II]

24. And what about John Ashcroft?

He said that we have different gods when he stated that the Christian god sacraficed his son for us, while Allah had you sacrafice your son for him

[0007]

105. I'll never ever forget that looney tune, when at Bob Jones University....

"I have no king but Jesus"

[Cheswick2.0]

107. John Ashcroft is a nut

he is affraid of Calico cats. He has nothing enlightening to say about Christ, God or the Islam. I would guess even other Asembly of God folks think he's nuts.

[FlaGranny]

28. It certainly makes one wonder how,

if one believes there is only one god, one can believe that the god worshipped by Muslims can be a different god from the one they worship. But, I'm sure that what they really mean is that the "other" is a false god.

If god really exists, I have to side with * on this one - YIKES!

[LizW]

40. Right. The fundies don't mean there are two gods

they mean there's the "real" god (theirs) and the "fake" god that their enemies worship. It's not inconsistent with monotheism.

Remember the other day when we were talking about depersonalizing one's enemies so it is possible to kill them? This is part of that. Basically, fundamentalists believe that it may ultimately be necessary to kill their enemies in "defense" of the "true" religion. For some fundamentalist Christians that is the basis behind their support for the Iraq war. When Bush* says, "They hate us for our freedoms," the fundamentalists hear "They hate us for our religion," because religion is the main concern of fundamentalists. Problem is, it is difficult to kill people who are children of the same god as you. That might be a sin, you know. So, the fundamentalists claim their enemies don't worship the "true" god, but something else. That way the enemies can be protrayed as misguided at best, or downright evil, if need be.

Bush will have to quietly backtrack on this statement in order to soothe his fundy base.

[Sting]

32. There is truth to that statement.

Christians and Muslims alike both worship the same God. That's one thing Bush said that is actually right.........:wow: :crazy:

[joshdawg]

33. One god, but

different interpretations.
Take for instance, any sentence at all, and give it to 100 different people. You would have 100 different interpretations of what that sentence meant. Hence, different interpretations of what "god" is.

[robbedvoter]

35. Goody! Let the charade unravel!

Whenever W's handlers put some sane words in his mouth, the crusading bunch quivers..Will he now dance with them aho brung him? In these election times it will be interesting to see...

[calimary]

39. Unfortunately, the so-called Christian fundamentalists will eagerly

overlook this and forgive him. They got their boy in where they want him - to launch their damned latter-day Crusade. This will NOT dampen their ardor for bush. Not by a long shot. Sad to say.

[susu369]

41. "My God is bigger than your God."

so sayeth General "Jerry" Boykin - who still has his job, BTW.

heh-heh :-)

[shanti]

46. by george!

the chimp actually did get something right for a change! there IS only ONE god, imo. his base won't stand for this, however. watch for some heavy duty backpedalling.

[leesa]

47. How will they justify their bigotry and hate if they are worshipping the

same God. Oh my! What stupidity!

[0007]

108. btt

[IndianaGreen]

48. This shows how extreme the American Xtian Taliban has become

These are the same people that support Israel's occupation of Palestine because "GAWD" gave the land to the Jews. What crock!

Religion has always been a pretext for imperial expansion. This was true when the Israelites first arrived in Canaan. It was true when the Conquistadors butchered their way through the Americas. It was true when America expanded West seeking its "Manifest Destiny." It was true when the first settlement was build on the West Bank after the 1967 War.

The Xtian Taliban use "GAWD" as a pretext to deny homosexuals full equality under the law, and to impose restrictions on abortion.

The Xtian Taliban will use "GAWD" to get the gullible WWJD masses to vote for Bush in 2004 and against their own economic interests.

[Classical_Liberal]

64. Archeology doesn't support the Israelite's conquering of Canaan

More likely the story was made up during the Babylonian captivity to make the Israelites look like they were once as powerful as the Assyrians. It was a matter of national prestige to have an empire in those day. In all probability to the Canaanites were the ancestors of the Israelites. Sadly the metaphore has been used for actual empire building.

[Terwilliger]

49. This is a farce

The one tolerant thing he can say, and his right-wing nutball god-pods can't accept that they're worshipping the same flawed notion.

[psychopomp]

50. Those interested in the topic

will find this book very helpful.


"A History of God" by Karen Armstrong.

[MrsMatt]

66. Excellent resource

I think Karen Armstrong has written any number of brilliant and reasoned tomes on the subject of religion.

[tlcandie]

51. Interesting that they will go after something so anal as this ...

yet, they will overlook the killing of innocents all over the world in God's name...hmmmm

Guess it really does amount to the saying, "Careful what you say NOT what you do," that bothers the mainstream Christians these days. Sad indeed that we find ourselves back at square one only this time it is worse and will become even darker.

Why should you get all inflamed over someone mis-speaking something about who you worship? I'm so glad that I left the right wing religious nutz a LONG time ago!

The golden rule and all has been thrown out the door while they hold onto the whitewash, the appearance of righteousness, and pity they have no clue.

[Snellius]

52. Anyone who says they know who god is is an atheist

Who are all these people who insist they know what god says, what god feels, what god believes, who god is? Who are all these people who keep screaming "My god is better than your god. My god is more godly than yours"?

[RebelOne]

106. I know what or who god is. God is nothing.

That's because I AM an atheist.

[cliss]

53. Heh heh dontcha love it?

There he goes again, trying to be wise with a brain the size of a walnut. Oh wait, was his campaign speech? He's a united, not a divider.

Aha, he's trying to united the muslims and the christians and be noble by saying they have the same god.

Once again, Bush is proving that it's better if he keeps his mouth shut.

[Entente]

56. Religious Crap Revolution

I think liberals need to take over all the churches in the land and end all this waste of time crap one for all.



If we can't fight them let's join them and win!


We all should have a national day where all of us go to church that day and cause all types of havoc. It will be our own form of religious terrorism.

[bullwinkll]

57. Whose God is it anyway?

"Religious wars are fought over who has the best Imaginary Friend."

[dai]

117. lol

that's perfect!

[camero]

61. The difference is thier views on Jesus

Christians see him as a savior.
Muslims see him as a prophet.
Jews say he has not arrived yet.

That at its core is what they are fighting about.

[peterh]

65. For a look at how the evangelical idiots feel on the subject….

My curiosity got the better of me….I had to look…

http://www.cbn.com/700club/askpat/BIO_040203.asp

PAT ROBERTSON: Under no circumstances is Jehovah, the God of the Bible, and Allah, of the Koran, the same. First of all, the God of the Bible is a God of love and redemption, who sent His Son into the world to die for our sins. Allah tells people to die for him in order to get salvation, but there is no understanding of salvation. Allah was the moon god from Mecca. That is why Islam has the crescent moon. The flag of Turkey has a crescent moon with a star in it. Well, the crescent moon is because Allah was the moon god, and that is the deal. But we don't serve a moon god. We serve the God of creation, the Creator of everything.

http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/aasi/aasi0588.htm

In an October interview broadcast last Friday on NBC's "Nightly News,"<Franklin> Graham said that Muslims worshipped a different God than Christians and that he believed Islam to be "a very evil and wicked religion."

http://www.theturkishtimes.com/archive/02/10_15/f_falwell.html

The Rev. Jerry Falwell says "I think Muhammad was a terrorist" in an interview to be broadcast Sunday on the CBS program "60 Minutes."
The conservative Baptist minister tells correspondent Bob Simon he has concluded from reading Muslim and non-Muslim writers that Islam's prophet "was a -- a violent man, a man of war."
"Jesus set the example for love, as did Moses," Falwell says. "I think Muhammad set an opposite example."

http://www.therationalradical.com/diatribes/ann_coulter.htm

I couldn’t resist this last one…a non-evangelical…

Ann Coulter's controversial statement in her column that "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity" is not the least of Coulter's sins.

[A HERETIC I AM]

75. What Robertson never admits is that Jesus is a "Sun" god

Pat Robertson said; "Well, the crescent moon is because Allah was the moon god, and that is the deal. But we don't serve a moon god. We serve the God of creation, the Creator of everything."
The story of Jesus "dying" on a cross and then being "resurrected" 3 days later to rise to the heavens is an allegory for the movement of the sun through the Spring Equinox. This motif is repeated thruout the millenia in the guise of dozens of other saviour god men in many cultures. Ever stop to think why xmas is always on the same day but Easter isnt? Easter is on the 1st sunday AFTER the 1st full moon AFTER the Spring equinox. This is Pagan in its origins. But Robertson would never admit that. The calender is heliocentric. The 25th of December is always the 3rd day after the shortest day of the year. The "Birth" of the saviour is merely the sun beginning its progression back southward (when viewed from the northern hemisphere)to the point where it warms the world and thus is it's "saviour" See www.truthbeknown.com The stories of the gods and goddeses are all allegorical tales personifying, historicizing and humanizing the movements of the celestial bodies through the heavens. Jesus is just as mythical a character as Apollo and Hercules. BTW, there is no, none, zero VERIFIABLE historical proof of a man named "Jesus The Christ" or any variant ever having existed in the Levant in or around the supposed time of his advent. Almost without exception, the so-called "evidence" used to support the claims of Jesus's historical veracity are spurious and forgeries. Every biblical scholar worth his salt knows this.

[LiberalFighter]

94. How can they worship a different god?

If there is only one god?

[peterh]

97. Ohhhh…sometimes, it’s the most simplistic questions…

That are the most dangerous…..:evilgrin:

[JohnOneillsMemory]

69. Oh Lord, please protect me from your followers. n/t

[SOS]

70. Whatever the religion

it is the people who have the choice to make our planet heaven or hell.

"Of all bad men, religious bad men are the worst."
- C.S. Lewis

[goforit]

72. Now all the Christian Right will be slaves to their GOD...GW Bush!

Their is justice after all!!!

[54anickel]

73. My, look at all the different perspectives here. I believe the founding

fathers of this nation certainly knew what they were doing when they drew up that Constitution! If not, we would all, no doubt, hold the exact same religious truths as handed to us by the government.
That is where the true story is and THAT is what should be explained to those with their undies in a bind stating that Bush is "mistaken".

I personally give a rat's ass what Shrubs, or anyone elses belief on this issue is. I do care deeply that we can hold our differing beliefs freely. The point is we need to keep it that way.

[karlschneider]

76. Precisely the kind of shit that starts when people worship imaginary

deities. Superstition trumps logic nearly every time.

[MisterP]

77. at least he didn't say "human mankind" this time

[young_at_heart]

79. They care more about "God" than other things.........like WAR!

For example, why doesn't it bother these people that the Bush administration has allowed "0" coffins of dead soldiers returning home to be photographed-----they have to keep the spotlight off fatalities in Iraq. Why doesn't THAT bother them?

[Doctor Panacea]

83. I'm shocked!

The Chimp was actually right for once.

But his numbskull followers are mad at him. What a laugh!

These people who talk about Allah as a different God have never read the Koran.

Regardless of whether Allah is seen as a "revisionist convergence" or whatever, it is clear that Allah is identified with the God of Abraham in the Koran. As one who grew up in a Christian fundamentalist culture, I can tell you that the general message in the Koran is one very similar to fundamentalist Christianity, but without the "Son of God" doctrine (which was not universally accepted in early Christianity anyway). And what is taught in the Koran is NOT what one sees in practice in Islam today. In particular, the spirit of the Koran has been lost in most Arab and other muslim countries today.

Frankly, I was shocked by the ignorant reaction of the religious right.

[DivinBreuvage]

85. The Most Telling Line in the Article

is this:

"Evangelical Christian leaders expressed dismay yesterday over President Bush's statement that Christians and Muslims worship the same god, saying it had caused discomfort within his conservative religious base. But most predicted that the political impact would be short-lived."

In other words, the beliefs of Evangelical Christian leaders are not quite strong enough to stand up for God's truth when blasphemed by a man who secures earthly power for Evangelical Christian leaders.

Somebody's gonna be doing some cookin'.

Françoise

[LiberalFighter]

95. Does that mean they don't have principles?

Hmmm

[Undemcided]

100. Excellent point.

n/t

[mebadgett]

90. THE BOUGHT MIND

THE BOUGHT MIND
by

Thomas S. Szasz, M.D.


"No pious platitudes…can get over the fact that a bought mind is a spoiled mind."
--George Orwell


Soon after his inauguration, President George W. Bush declared: "When we see social needs in America, my administration will look first at faith-based programs and community groups, which have proven their power to save and change lives.'' Critics lost no time assailing the proposal as a threat to the separation of church and state. There is, indeed, cause for alarm here, but the real danger lies elsewhere.


The Founders' interest in separating church and state must be seen in its historical context. During the centuries preceding the American revolution, the secular rulers of European states represented, and were expected to represent, the religious interests of the majority of their subjects, Catholic or Protestant. The result was entrenched religious persecution and war. The Founders wanted to preserve the moral authority of the churches, while creating a system of secular rule indifferent to the specific religious denomination of particular citizens. All they said on the subject, let us not forget, was that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."


Why did the Founders not mention money, that is, the government's use of taxes to support religious organizations? The answer is simple and important. Firstly, because religious bodies, exemplified by the Vatican, derived their income directly from their members, collected their own funds, and were often quite wealthy. The Mormon Church and the Christian Science Church are recent examples. Secondly, the Founders did not mention money because it never occurred to them that one day the United States would be so large and prosperous, and the government would tax the citizenry so heavily, that it could, if it chose, control anything it wanted by supporting the activity with money.


Responding to critics, a Bush adviser cited "provable results from faith-based social programs that address problems like substance abuse." Mr. Bush himself says his faith saved him from abusing alcohol. No one can doubt the power of religious faith to alter human behavior. Indeed, the proposition that religion influences behavior is a sort of pleonasm; in a manner of speaking, that's what religion is for. Christians speak of "deciding for Jesus." Similarly, people decide for and against drinking or smoking. But decisions are not diseases. No one decides to have a real disease, such as melanoma. Nor can a real disease be effectively treated by faith healing.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

Source: http://www.szasz.com/iol13.html

[radfringe]

91. the only GOD that Baghdad-Bush listens to is

Gas - Oil and Drug companies

[wildwww2]

99. Bu$h mistaken? When did truth ever come out of the usurpers mouth?

I`m still waiting for that court installed maggot to say something that makes sense. Freedom of religion should mean. Not having to listen to a God that resides between the ears of the murderous thug who is squatting in Al Gore`s White House. For him to define the God for several different religions. Wouldn`t he have to be a slight bit intelligent first. And him growing some smarts. A thousand gods could not pull off that miracle.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[The Animator]

101. In a purely academic sense...

...I believe that the God of the Christians, the Jews, and the Muslims are one in the same. There was a root belief that was initiated by the Jews (Judasim). That carpenter guy comes along and puts his two cents in and now you've got two religions where once there was one. Then this other guy takes the new version (Judasim 2.0 aka Christianity) Works on it alone in a cave somewhere for god only knows how long and presto (Judasim 2.5 aka Islam)


I do not believe in a God in that sense. A cursory study of ancient world history however could easily point to the conclusion I have drawn. There was a core belief, then with time, and the introdution of additional philosphies there came differences of interpretation. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all sprang from that same core belief, much as Purtians, Quakers, the Amish, Lutherans, Mormons, Baptists, etc all sprang from their core belief, Catholisism. As much as the conservative christian movement has tried to deny the existence of evolution, religion itself is subject to the process. It changes, adapts to new geographic regions, to new cultures, and preexisting ideologies, it changes whenever mankind discovers something new about the nature of the universe, and whenever new philosophies are incorporated into our collective phsycie. New species of religion are created all the time, and each time it is called something new.

One religion is no more right or wrong than any other, because organized religions are entities run by human beings, and human beings cannot go five minutes without screwing something up. There is no right religion. They are all right and wrong in there own way. I just find it ironic how so many "christian leaders" are quick to condemn other relgions, when one of the core teachings or their faith is the story of "the Good Semaritan" which involves a man who is robbed and left for dead on the side of a road. He cries for help as fellow christians pass without even giving him a glance. He finally received the help he needed when a kind hearted Semaritan (non-christian) came to his aid. The moral of this story: not all christians are good, and non-christians aren't all that bad either.

Personally I don't favor any religion, I'm just going to do my time on planet Earth in my own way. I'm going to live my life the way I think it should be lead, and let others believe whatever they want. If there is an all powerfull all knowing God out there, then she knows exactly why I feel the way I do, and she'll understand.

[FlaGranny]

113. There is no way there COULD be "different" gods

because if god exists at all, and these religions all agree there is only one god, everybody worships the same god, whether they like it or not. They are fighting about different interpretations of the one god belief. It breaks down to fighting about whose interpretation of god is correct and there are certainly many different interpretations.

[BonjourUSA]

103. Why to talk about Almighty in a foreign policy conference abroad ?

[young_at_heart]

110. Separation of church and state?

What is Bush trying to do...tear the world apart or something?

[jokerman93]

111. "And I believe we worship the same god."

Could it be this is the first time I've experienced the strange sensation of reading or hearing Emperor Punchy make a statement and thinking to myself, "Well, that's true."

Ironic also that the first time in memory I can remember him saying something factual, and his cult followers immediately start complaining and getting outraged.

Of course they believe in the same god. All fundamentalist thinkers do. Fundi Christians, Fundi Moslems, Fundi New Agers, Fundi Pagans, Fundi Capitalists, Fundi Flag Wavers -- they all worship the same god -- at least in a metaphorical sense.

That god is generally a projection of their own power fantasies over the minds and lives of everyone else.

[iam]

114. The only god

that anyone believes in or prays to, is the one inside your head.

[Spider Jerusalem]

115. Further proof, if any were needed...

that the Religious Right are a gaggle of brain-damaged buffoons whom no one with any sense would take seriously. Makes me wish I could believe there IS a hell, just so I could rest secure in the knowledge that these bloody hypocrites would be enjoying a nice long stay there.

[0007]

116. Where's that mud hen and that Blue_ guy that had all the answers?