Castro: Al-Zarqawi Killing a 'Barbarity'

[cal04]

President Fidel Castro called the U.S. airstrike that killed Abu Musab al-Zarqawi a ``barbarity,'' saying he should have been put on trial. The United States acted as ``judge and jury'' against the leader of the al-Qaida in Iraq, Castro said late Friday.

``They bragged, they were practically drunk with happiness.'' ``The accused cannot just be eliminated,'' he told a literacy conference. ``This barbarity cannot be done.'' The U.S. military has said al-Zarqawi initially survived the dropping of two 500-pound bombs on his hide-out Wednesday, but died a short time later.

Castro said if Cuba used the same logic, it could bomb the United States to kill its No. 1 enemy, Luis Posada Carriles, who is being held in El Paso, Texas on immigration charges.

The communist government accuses the Cuban-born Posada of masterminding numerous violent attacks against the island, including the bombing of a Cuban airliner that killed 73 people in 1976. Posada denies involvement in the bombing of the plane.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-5878436,00.html

[Kutjara]

1. Fidel should be used to US tactics by now.

After all, we did try to kill him about a dozen times with things like poisoned pens and exploding cigars. Assassination is our preferred way of dealing with inconvenient enemies.

[Selatius]

2. Enemies like JFK, MLK, and RFK?

What, were they progressives who managed to go "too far"?

:sarcasm:

[Kutjara]

3. No, they were all killed by...

...er...random lunatics with...um...no connections to any government or quasi-government organisations. At all. Whatsoever. Yes, that's it.

Did I do OK, agent Mike?

[saigon68]

4. WTF did MLK have to do with Castro?

[killbotfactory]

9. Well... Hoover considered MLKjr a communist, as I'm sure he did Castro

The SCLC was considered a "black nationalist hate group" according to the FBI.

The FBI did everything in their power to try and destroy his movement.

[Zynx]

13. JFK, a great progressive?

Whatever. Lyndon Johnson did a great deal more tangible things. All this "what might have been" stuff with JFK is a lot of nonsense. I've read many many history books and I've seen nothing to indicate that JFK was on the verge of getting us out of Vietnam. There were discussions about the viability of the Vietnam mission before the October 1963 killing of Diem, which was supported by Kennedy, but never were there serious discussions of getting out of Vietnam. Kennedy always tried to outflank the right wingers on fighting Communism. He was not about to hand them that issue. The way JFK has been deified is disgusting.

[DemonFighterLives]

17. Not true

JFK was trying to pull out the 1,000 advisors. You should have found that but not in mainstream history books. Johnson escalated the war.

[coalition_unwilling]

67. Post-Nov. '64 there are suggestions JFK might have

initiated a broad policy review of U.S. commitment in southeast Asia. Frederick Logevall, in "Choosing War," suggests that JFK's principal objective was maintaining policy flexibility. We simply do not know what policy changes might have occurred following a likely JFK re-election.

BTW: JFK supported the 'coup' against Diem, but most of the historians I've read have stated that JFK was shocked and distressed at Diem's and Ngu's extra-judicial assassinations. I read a great thriller (can't remember the title -- something like the "Guns of August") whose premise was that JFK was assassinated by the Diem brothers in an attempt to pre-emptively ward off the impending coup.

[cobalt1999]

58. Castro is probably breathing a sigh of relief

that we didn't have laser guided bombs and stealth aircraft back when the US was trying to knock him off.

[Common Sense Party]

5. Paragon of human rights, Fidel Castro!

Gracias, Fidelito.

[LostinVA]

39. Castro is 100% right

Armies/Governments can't just go murdering whomever the hell they want whenever they want... especially when they are doing it in a country not their own. Using the US's logic, it would be fine for anyone to come here and bomb DC because they don't like what Bush is doing in the Middle East. It IS barbarity. The message is correct, even if you don't agree with the messenger.

[bdamomma]

91. Castro isn't my number one fan

but he is right on this one, judge and jury, doesn't wash with the bush thugs, they rather just kill.

[LostinVA]

123. Yuppers

[The Stranger]

63. This is playground justice: "I know you are but what am I."

Now DUers apparently compare Fidel's human rights record with that of the U.S., even justifying it as just as bad.

Yes, the U.S. has sunk that low. But no one seems to see it.

[darkism]

6. This is the most level-headed, sensical thing I've heard...

...since Michael Berg's interview.

For this, at least, Castro is right on the money.

[Judi Lynn]

7. He's right. Following the same logic, Cuba would be absolutely clear

to go ahead and bomb the U.S. which is hiding bonber/mass murderer Luis Posada Carriles.

It's so scary if vicious attacks are made by any other country, of course. Vicious attacks made by _Bush are just and appropriate.

How DID they ever get this twisted? We've got a whole lot of loonies with way too much power.

[brentspeak]

22. Uh, yeah...

"Cuba would be absolutely clear to go ahead and bomb the U.S."

No matter how sarcastic that comment is, it still sounds stupid.

Mods?

[Zhade]

153. Trying to silence speech you don't like, eh?

My, that's quite democratic of you.

[RebelOne]

8. Yes, you are right. I never liked Castro,

but I can agree with him on this.

[saltpoint]

10. One's personal take on Fidel Castro aside, he has played a long string

of U.S. presidents like a fiddle and made fools of entire administrations.

A highlight: his offering to send a team from Cuba to oversee the 2000 election recount in Florida.

Here he is at his best, taking a gaping contradiction in U.S. foreign policy and putting it on the front pages of every newspaper south of Brownsville.

Viewpoints here or in Cuba aside, Fidel Castro is a political genius.

"Look," he is telling Latino compatriots in power and those who have no power at all, "The same U.S. administration who would erect a giant wall to keep you out is one which violates international boundaries to bomb and kill."

Love him or hate him, Castro plays a mean game of poker.

[coalition_unwilling]

69. Castro also offered to send in 1,200 physicians with

hurricane disaster kits to help in the wake of Katrina, an offer that was summaraily and contemptuously dismissed by the U.S.

If Castro is so bad, how come the Cuban literacy rate increased from just 5% under Batista to 95% today (higher than in the U.S.)?

[manic expression]

138. Well said

people are very blind to those facts.

[DFW]

11. Castro might have picked a better barbarity

Al-Zarqawi got his jollies beheading unarmed people who had their arms tied behind their
backs. If Castro wants to point out barbarities performed by the USA, he has a huge wide range
of choices (Haditha, por ejemplo) without bringing up Al-Zarqawi. Usually a master at running
rings around Washington when it comes to propaganda, I think Fidel blew it this time.

[Endangered Specie]

33. " Al-Zarqawi got his jollies beheading unarmed people "

Well, you can't expect a guy (Castro) who enjoys the same type of thing to be happy when one of them gets it.

[Mika]

34. Ridiculous Kool Aid hyperbole

Please provide a link that backs your inane assertion.

[Endangered Specie]

47. well, for starters

http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/cuba/document.do?id=1CFBC57728D17FD480256CFC002C8390

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/cuba12207.htm

[Mika]

59. Nothing on Castro enjoying beheading in those links

As far as the gulags in Cuba, they are in Gitmo.

[ProudDad]

83. This post is Gratuitous bullshit

IMHO

[Zhade]

154. Oh, for the love of...

You can't POSSIBLY be that misinformed about Cuba. NO ONE is THAT stupid.

[Zynx]

12. Castro would know all about barbarity wouldn't he?

That paragon of human rights and freedom. The only thing I can say about Castro is that he is better than Batista was, but that's not saying much.

[High Plains]

27. He is much, much better than Batista, and Cuba is much better off.

[megatherium]

29. hint: he's been in power, what, 45 years? nt

[LostinVA]

40. You got it -- my (conservative) grandfather was in the Navy

for 20+ years. He remembers going to Cuba and seeing Cubans in CHAINS working in the US-owned fields... soldiers raping women in broad daylight... etc. He says he would have embraced Castro, too.

For all of Fidel's faults, he is no Batista. And, Cuba does a hell of a lot better than this country when it comes to taking care of it's people. And, that is the factual truth. Literacy, health care, infant mortality, etc.

[manic expression]

139. How so?

Oh, yeah, because Cuba is rife with death squads..........

Wait.......

:eyes:

(for those of you out of the know, Cuba is devoid of any significant political repression, just ask Oswaldo Paya)

[w4rma]

14. Castro just screwed up. (nt)

[K-W]

20. Yah, the US might start hating him or something. EOM

[IndianaGreen]

26. Now that Americans have accepted torture and concentration camps

and believe in American Exceptionalism and that the US is under a special Divine Dispensation, there is no need to believe in such secular concepts such as due process and Constitutional government.

What the US has done to Cuba since 1902 has been nothing but a never-ending crime against humanity!

Many Democrats talk today about not allowing the US to have permanent bases in Iraq, and to redeploy US troops "over the horizon", yet that is precisely what the US did to Cuba when it forced the Cubans to grant basing rights at Guantanamo, and put in the Cuban Constitution a clause allowing the US to intervene militarily at any time it wished to (Platt Amendment). You must excuse me for laughing at the irony of the double standard!

When it comes to the US and Cuba, it is the US that comes with bloody hands!

[brentspeak]

15. Coming from the guy that had Che Guevera machine gun prisoners

by the hundreds, it's hard not to laugh.

[Mika]

16. Got any credible links to that?

Any links other than the mewling ax grinding Castrophobes and dispossessed Batistanos?

[Judi Lynn]

36. There were SOME guys who were executed. I'm sure there are some

in the States who would cry in their beer over the death squad members, the "Tigres" connected to the Batista ally, Rolando Masferrer.

There is a photo somewhere showing Frank Sturgis standing with a machine gun by a load of 59 dead "Tigres." He mentioned this event in a testimony before some U.S. Government body, after he actually worked as an executioner in Cuba, himself.

Here's a description of the "Tigres" from FBI records:

EL TIGRES

In 1958 El Tigres became Batista's primary counter-terrorist force. Murder, mutilation, rape, dismemberment, castration, torture and kidnapping were the trademarks of El Tigres. Bodies of individuals who had been tortured to death were flung from speeding cars on to the streets of Havana to strike terror in the populace. The main target of Masferrer were supporters of the 26th of July Movement. Masferrer was considered a war criminal by most of the 26th of July Revolutionary Movement. Rolando Masferrer told the FBI that Fidel Castro's men "began to ambush, assassinate, and otherwise kill members of Rolando Masferrer's party. Consequently, in order to protect members of his party Masferrer went to...the Minister of the Interior and obtained permission to arm his men so that they could protect themselves. Masferrer stated it was untrue that he had a private army and that it is also untrue that he ever committed any personal atrocities, such as shooting helpless women and children."{FBI 100-344127 4.21.59 Miami} Any opponent of the Batista regime was fair game for Masferrer who operated a chain of gambling casinos and was the editor of two newspapers. On July 13, 1956, the State Department reported: "Masferrer is a powerfully-built man of 39, who has the reputation as a gangster and a killer. He was a Communist in his student days and fought for the loyalist cause in Spain, but now professes anti-Communism with a vengeance. He has a private band of 80 armed men who served as a sort of personal bodyguard and stand by to act as hatchet men if violence is called for. Enjoying President Batista's confidence, Masferrer and his little army represent a potential force of some importance. He is known to have killed certain enemies and to have scared the wits out of others. In 1950, for instance, he was found by the police, machine gun in hand, over two frightened men who were actually digging their own graves. The men were saved but Masferrer was not arrested; he had congressional immunity; he was a representative at the time." {Memo R.G. Cushing to Ambassador} In August 1958 the FBI reported that Rolando Masferrer and Marcos Jimenez Perez, the exiled President of Venezuela, had become close associates. Rolando Masferrer told Marcos Jimenez Perez that he was "planning to take over the Cuban Government when Batista fell." {FBI 100-344127 8.12.58 Miami}
(snip)

http://www.ajweberman.com/nodules2/nodulec1.htm

[LostinVA]

41. hehehehe

[IndianaGreen]

24. Watching Faux News again, aren't we?

No such thing ever happened! Unfortunately for you guys you can only kill Che once, and his legend has outlasted your false Gawd Ronald Reagan, that "great champion of freedom" who would find himself out of place in today's GOP.

[killbotfactory]

53. Yeah... uh... okay

They executed people after trial. Something the US does all the time.

[Bridget Burke]

118. There were trials after the Revolution.

And some of those tried were executed. But Che didn't "machine gun" them. Probably the number executed was even higher than the number killed under Governor Bush. After all--WE have capital punishment, too.

Che was another example of an "enemy" who was captured & then murdered. Put him on trial? Too dangerous.

[Walt Disney]

18. Well, one thing's for sure, Castro knows "barbarity."

[Mika]

19. You forgot some pics

[Walt Disney]

21. Yes, I did.

[IndianaGreen]

25. Chavez was the head of OPEC, and Iran is a member *** GRAPHIC ***

How about this picture of the Glorious American Crusaders at work:



http://www.chris-floyd.com/march/

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

48. Fidel is not a millionaire, much less a billionaire

but you are welcome to repeat all of the Florida Republican talking points about Cuba that the Miami Herald and Jeb Bush are so fond of repeating.

Speaking of Cuba, when is the terrorist Posada going to be extradited to Venezuela to face justice in the bombing of the Cubana Airliner, or is he a hero of yours?

[killbotfactory]

55. Posada isn't a terrorist, he's a freedom fighter!

:eyes:

[VivaBatista]

150. Castro is a Billionaire According to FORBES MAGAZINE

It's not Miami exiles or Republican politicos who say that Castro is a billionaire, but Forbes Magazine, which should know. After killing 100,000 of his countrymen, imprisoning another 2 million and exiling 2 million more, Castro's reputation in your eyes would actually be negatively impacted by his being also a thief? An "honest" revolutionary can kill at his discretion, deprive his people of their human rights for nearly a half-century, without incurring your disapproval; but your bottomless faith would actually be shattered if you discovered that the murderer was also a thief?

As for Posada, he has already been tried in Venezuela three times for the explosion of the Cubana airliner and thrice acquitted -- twice in civil trials and once in a military court-martial? How many more times do you propose that he should be tried? Until you get the verdict that you want? Well, I'm not surprised. The only supporters that Castro has left in the world are little Castros.

[Judi Lynn]

152. We discussed it in depth a long time ago.

It was very dirty politics. There's no way you can claim state-owned property is also personal property. Any fool knows that, even idiot Cuban right-wing "exiles." Even Miami Mafia buttheads.

Here are a couple of threads in which DU'ers discussed it already:

From Late Breaking News:

CNN/Reuters: Report: Cuba's Castro worth a cool $900M
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2264637

From General Discussion:

Oops! Fidel Castro richer than Queen of England.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1112617

[VivaBatista]

156. All of Castro's Wealth Consists of Stolen State Property

"There's no way you can claim state-owned property is also personal property." — Judy Lynn

Yes, you can. Remember, Castro is the state. Most of Castro's wealth consists of stolen state property.

Last year, moreover, he "earned" more than $1 billion by skimming off 15 percent from the $7 billion in remittances that the generous exile community sent to their starving relatives on the island. Starved, of course, by Fidel Castro himself, who always finds a means to profit by their misery.

I don't know what you've discussed before; but now a new discussion begins.

[Mika]

159. Even the author of Forbes claims says they can't substantiate it.

They say it is their estimate and that their estimate is more "art" based on rumors than fact based research.

Forbes magazine's estimate of Fidel Castro's worth -- $900 million -- is `more art than science.'
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/14637274.htm

So how did Forbes go from $150 million in 2004 to $900 million two years later?

''They got a lot of criticism the first time, so they kept investigating. Each time, they came up with a different number,'' said Jesus Marzo Fernández, a former Cuban economy ministry official who was interviewed by the magazine. ``They worked hard on their story and checked a lot of sources, but, in the end, it's an estimate.''

-

To derive this year's $900 million figure, Forbes' article said it estimated a value for state-owned companies, including a convention center near Havana; Cimex, a vast conglomerate of companies; and Medicuba, which sells vaccines and other pharmaceuticals produced in Cuba.

''Former Cuban officials insist Castro, who travels exclusively in a fleet of black Mercedes, has skimmed profits from these outfits for years. To come up with a net worth figure, we use a discounted cash flow method to value these companies and then assume a portion of that profit stream goes to Castro,'' Forbes wrote in the article. ``To be conservative, we don't try to estimate any past profits he may have pocketed, though we have heard rumors of large stashes in Swiss bank accounts.''

But the article itself acknowledges that the formula is ''more art than science,'' and the paragraph about Castro twice uses the word ``assume.''

Economists say the method is at best debatable, because it's unclear how the magazine determined the value of the companies and what percentage profit to assign to Castro. Experts point out that Cuba's own published economic figures are dubious at best.

Judi Lynn posted a couple of links to previous discussions, your "discussion" isn't a new one.. its the same old tired and unverifiable one.

[VivaBatista]

161. Your "Hero of the People" is Filthy Rich & He Stole Every Cent

Actually, the Forbes estimate was on the low end. In fact, Castro is the "CEO" of every state enterprise in Cuba and holds a 51 percent interest in all foreign investments. He also steals more than 1 billion per year in exile remittances, as I previously explained. And let's not forget about Raul, whose fortune was not calculated by Forbes. His fortune may actually be larger than his brother's.

[Mika]

163. Got any links that prove that?

Usually, discussions made in good faith here on DU accompany some kind of sources that we can examine and discuss. You claim that this is a new discussion. Instead of the regurgitited rhetoric, how about something new?

It would be nice if you could back up your wild claims with something other than mewling CANF & Batistano sources.

Post 'em if you got 'em.

[VivaBatista]

167. Stop "Cutting & Pasting:" Think for Yourselves!

I have yet to see any reputable sources cited on this site. I have already posted numerous statistics which show that pre-Castro Cuba's standard of living was the highest in Latin America and one of the highest in the world. All these are referenced to their sources. I am not, however, an habitue of the cutting and pasting which you and Judi favor, preferring instead to digest what I read and present it in my own words. It is you and Judi who are always regurgitating the same pap. Why not try doing some thinking for yourselves? Of course, as supporters and apologists for Fidel Castro, this may be too much to ask of you.

I have no connection to the Cuban American National Foundation (CANF), which since Mas Canosa's death has moved to the center in the Cuban-American political spectrum. Do you have any connection to the Castro regime? -- I mean a formal connection, not just an adolescent crush.

As for Batista, here's a newsflash: he's dead. His "henchmen," if any are still left, must be centenarians. Stop fighting ghosts. Castro has already ruled three times as long as Batista, thanks, of course, to Batista himself, who spared Castro's life.

[Mika]

170. If 'thinking for yourselves' has results like yours, no thanks.

You might have posted pre revolution stats that show that Cuba's health care and ed infrastructure for the elite might have been among the highest of the deplorable conditions elsewhere in the Latin Americas, but Cuba's health care and ed stats have vastly improved at a phenominal rate to 1st world class levels - rating among the highest standards.

Your 'think for yourselves' and "as supporters and apologists for Fidel Castro" comments (yet more ad hominem attacks) are simply out of line in an honest discussion. Its looking like you don't intend on having any such thing.


Whatever you prefer to digest what you read and present it in your own words is presented as distortions and lacking basic truth. Try sticking to facts, instead of badly digested hyperbolic excretions.

[VivaBatista]

178. Castro Has His Own Private Elite Hospitals in Cuba

The pre-revolutionary statistics are not confined to the elite, but are comprehensive of all Cubans. If you want to know about elite conditions, you should inquire about the level of health care afforded to Castro and his henchmen at their private hospitals in Cuba, which are most certainly kept at First World levels. The largest hospital in Cuba for the common people--everybody except Castro and his henchmen--is still the "Calixto Garcia" Hospital, built by Batista. It should have been replaced years ago as it is quite obsolete. But Castro doesn't spend "his" money on the common people.

If you feel that you can't engage in an "honest discussion" with me about Cuba, why do you persist in engaging me?

By the way, "badly digested hyperbolic excretions" is itself a badly digested hyperbolic excretion.

[Judi Lynn]

180. Do you have a link to a source concerning the "Calixto Garcia" Hospital?

It would be expected for you to post it.

[VivaBatista]

183. Expected by Whom?

Expected by whom? You can google it yourself. I now know that you are not Cuban, because if you were you would have been born at, or at least heard of, the "Calixto Garcia" Hospital.

[LostinVA]

217. Expected by critical thinkers on DU

Especially expected from one-issue poster with a purposely "fuck you" screen name.

Hey... how's the old gang from Miami Sound Machine doing these days?

[Mika]

184. Don't hold your breath, Judi.

Somehow I get the feeling that a link will not be produced. You are expected to know or have heard something about it. Hearing about it would make one an "expert".


Here's a link you might be interested in (but, be careful, its got stats and reports)..

http://www.paho.org/english/sha/prflcub.htm

[Judi Lynn]

188. Thank you. Here are some decent stats, too:

Others are following the trend: Cuban model
Too much money could be worse than too little. For as long as they could afford it 'wealthy' countries stuck to an outdated and ineffective system. Pressure on budgets forced them to change direction.

The same happened in Cuba. Here harsh sanctions imposed by the USA on the island for over four decades brought the economy to its knees. Extravagant health spending was not an option. Allowing the health of Cubans to deteriorate was not an option either. Imaginative policies and practices had to be adopted. It goes without saying that old ideas, not unlike those advocated by Duncan and Newlands in Liverpool, and Lemuel Shattuck in Massachusetts, were picked up, dusted, and then put in practice. The results were spectacular.

Cuba's healthcare system, as with anything else to do with that country, is a minefield for anyone seeking reliable facts. However, one basic fact is now beyond dispute: Cuba has a first class health system achieved at a fraction of the cost associated with this level of success. A strong hint of the foundation for this success lies in the fact that Cuba has had a Ministry of Public Health since 1961.

One of the most detailed studies of Cuba's Social Services; including education, health, and sanitation, was completed in January 2002. It was commissioned by the World Bank as background for the World Development Report 2004, and undertaken by Dan Erikson, Annie Lord, and Peter Wolf. The report underlines the fact that "Monitoring the health data of the population plays an important role in the evaluation and shaping of health policy." (www.sld.cu) Comparison with the dearth of reliable information within the British NHS is instructive. A good picture of Cuba's state of health is included in the form of appendices to the report. Basically, life expectancy increased from 64 in 1960 to 76 in 2001. Infant mortality decreased in the same period from 60 to 6.2 per 1000 live births. Maternal mortality in 2001 was 33.9 deaths per 100,000 live births. (World Bank documents in www.worldbank.org )

Similar positive views were expressed in Summer 2002 in the Harvard Public Health Review. ( www.hsph.harvard.edu)

Cuba's health system evolved in the last four decades through three stages: the municipal polyclinic, the 'medicine in the community' programme, and then the 'family doctor-and-nurse teams' ( www.medicc.org). The latest stage provides 24 hour access to primary care through doctor-nurse teams. Each is responsible for only about 660-700 people to retain this focus without overburdening the doctors and nurses. The key unit in this system is taken as the family, and knowledge gained by primary care professionals about all members of the family is considered essential to the provision of a more effective service. The family doctor is involved in all aspects of healthcare: seamless progression from primary to tertiary care. The same seamless association is maintained between all services including social care.

Some space was given to healthcare in Cuba to illustrate the principle that effectiveness does not depend on funding alone. Much could be achieved at low cost once the right policies have been defined, implemented, monitored, and then modified sensibly.

http://www.globalcomplexity.org/Cost%20versus%20value.htm

[Judi Lynn]

191. WHO - Best Latin American health system list published (World Health Org.)

WHO - Best Latin American health system list published
PL, 22 June 2000

GENEVA, Jun 22 (PL) Cuba, Colombia, Chile and Costa Rica are the Latin American countries with the best health systems announced the World Health Organization (WHO) yesterday in its report on World Health 2000.

Based on five indexes, the study analyzed the health systems of 191 UN member-countries and compared factors such as general population health level and the response capacity of these systems.

According to WHO, France is the country with the most efficient health system, followed by Italy, San Marino, Andorra, Malta, Singapore and Spain.

The US, in spite of being the country that spends the most on its health system, was in 37th place.

The study considered that Peru and Brazil, along with Cambodia, China, Myanmar, Russia, Sierra Leona, Nepal and Vietnam, are the countries giving the least finance to their health systems.

"If we design a comparative guide of what works and what does not, we could help countries learn from others and improve their systems," explained WHO Test and Information Policy executive director Julio Frenk.

The group's general director Gro Harlem Brundtland concluded that the "world population's health and welfare depends on the health systems of their countries." RJR/LPB
(snip/)

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/178.html

[Judi Lynn]

193. Learn from Cuba, Says World Bank

Learn from Cuba, Says World Bank
By Jim Lobe, IPS, 1 May 2001

WASHINGTON, Apr 30 (IPS) - World Bank President James Wolfensohn Monday extolled the Communist government of President Fidel Castro for doing "a great job" in providing for the social welfare of the Cuban people.

His remarks followed Sunday's publication of the Bank's 2001 edition of 'World Development Indicators' (WDI), which showed Cuba as topping virtually all other poor countries in health and education statistics.

It also showed that Havana has actually improved its performance in both areas despite the continuation of the US trade embargo against it and the end of Soviet aid and subsidies for the Caribbean island more than ten years ago.

"Cuba has done a great job on education and health," Wolfensohn told reporters at the conclusion of the annual spring meetings of the Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF). "They have done a good job, and it does not embarrass me to admit it."
(snip)

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank's Vice President for Development Policy who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999; Chile's was down to ten; and Costa Rica, 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50 percent lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba's achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

"Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable," according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. "You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area."
(snip)

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/185.html

[VivaBatista]

196. Interesting

"For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999." WHO as reported by Judi Lynn

The infant mortality rate in Cuba before the Revolution -- that is, 50 years ago --was 37.6 per 1000 births. So it took the rest of Latin America 40 years to catch-up to pre-Castro Cuba!!!

[Judi Lynn]

198. Would you provide a link to your source?

On edit:

Of course your figures have to be wildly incorrect.

If Cuba had been a virtual Garden of Eden, why was the Revolution massively supported? Why WOULD so many people have wanted to throw the assholes out?

[VivaBatista]

202. Castro Not "Massively Supported" Before 1959

Fidel came to power because the Eisenhower administration imposed an arms embargo on Batista and refused to recognize the outcome of the presidential elections of November 1958. Once Batista fled, the populace naturally flocked to Castro, who promised to restore the Constitution of 1940 and hold free elections.

But, as late as March 1958, the vast majority of Cubans had rejected Castro and his revolution. It was in March that Castro declared a a general strike in support of the rebels. The strike was a monumental failure: less than 10 percent of the Cuban population backed it.

Then, as late as Nov. 1958, 50 percent of Cubans voted in presidential elections which Castro repudiated.

No country is a "Garden of Eden," but few countries are the hell that Castro's Cuba is.

[VivaBatista]

194. Who Are You Kidding?

I am not in the least interested in the falsified statistics that Castro feeds to the World Health Organization. In any case, pre-Castro Cuba's health indicators were more advanced than France's, Italy's or Spain's, which now have "the most efficient health systems" in the world.

The U.S. ranks 37th? And, yet, where do those who can afford it go for the world's best medical care? Hint: It isn't San Mariro, Andorra, Malta or Singapore. Not even France or Italy. It's the United States.

[Judi Lynn]

197. Then you'll have to settle for these findings, for the moment:

The Cuban Paradox

Perhaps best known for vintage cars, cigars, and communists, Cuba is also distinguished by something far more enticing to the students and staff of the Harvard School of Public Health--its health care system. The Cuban government assumes full fiscal and administrative responsibility for the health care needs of all its citizens, providing free preventive, curative, and rehabilitation services. This National Health System, as it's called, is an international success story and, for the last three years, a small group from the School has made its way down to this sunny island nation to learn more about what makes it tick. "It's good for people to see another system," says Richard Cash, senior lecturer in the School's Department of Population and International Health. "Seeing for yourself is far more important and to see what Cuba does with limited resources and to contrast it with our system and other systems is valuable. Everyone that has gone to Cuba has come away clearly educated by the process."

This March, Cash was joined in this educational experience by 12 MPH students. Roberta Gianfortoni, director for professional education at the School, has organized the trip since its inception and coordinated this year's excursion with Medical Education in Cooperation with Cuba (MEDICC), a non-profit organization that specializes in offering elective experiences in Cuba to US and Canadian students in the health and medical sciences. The School's contingent traveled under a special license granted to the MEDICC. Over an eight-day stay in the Cuban capital of Havana, the group visited institutions such as the Ministry of Public Health, maternity hospitals, schools of medicine and public health, AIDS sanatoria, and community health clinics. "The objective is to look at an alternative system," says Gianfortoni. "It's an interesting model to study. Our students are going to go to both developed and underdeveloped countries so it's interesting to consider how Cuba's concepts and methods can translate to other parts of the world."

Socio-economic development is typically measured by health indicators such as infant mortality and life expectancy at birth. However, in Cuba, a nation beset by severely limited resources and political tensions both internal and external, these health markers are essentially the same as those in the United States and other parts of the industrialized world. Cuba also boasts the highest rate of public health service in Latin America and has one of the highest physician-to-population ratios in the world. Alone remarkable for a developing country, these feats are even more extraordinary considering the context of a US embargo that's been in effect since 1961. Because its access to traditional sources of financing is seriously hindered by the sanctions, which until rec- ently included all food and medicine, Cuba has received little foreign and humanitarian aid to maintain the vitality of its national programs. And herein lies the paradox of Cuba's health care system: because Cuba has so few resources, prevention has become the only affordable means of keeping its population healthy.

"I find Cuba's system to be very inspiring because it is so public health focused," says Tracy Rabin, who has made the Cuba trip twice. She traveled the first time as a student in the Department of Immunology and Infectious Diseases; this year she participated as a research associate and program manager for the Program on Ethical Issues in International Health Research in the Department of Population and International Health. Her impressions are not an illusion: despite the economic difficulties of recent years, spending on public health in Cuba has increased steadily, which reflects the political will to maintain successes achieved in this area. An August 1960 law established the Ministry of Public Health as the highest authority responsible for health care. The same year, the Rural Social Medical Service was created, allowing Cuba to place doctors and nurses in the country's remotest areas to bring medical attention to inhabitants there.
(snip/...)

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/review/review_summer_02/677cuba.html

[VivaBatista]

203. Cuba Has Biggest Public Debt Per Capita In the World

Every academic who visits Cuba at the invitation of the Castro government finds the experience "inspiring." Their primary research, however, is conducted in bars and on the waterfront.

Incidentally, Castro has saddled Cuba with the biggest public debt per capita in the world -- $260 billiuon dollars. $120 billion of this is still owed to Russia (successor regime of the USSR.). So much for "limited resources."

[VivaBatista]

192. 47 Years of Falsified Statistics

"Cuba's healthcare system, as with anything else to do with that country, is a minefield for anyone seeking reliable facts."

Yes, indeed, 47 years of falsified records.

[LostinVA]

216. Only the highest for Batista and his flunkies

The rest of the island lived in literal poverty and slavery (often to US-owned businesses and the US "Nafia")... total Third World conditions. That is not the case now. Even my conservative grandfather has told me stories about how horrible the people were treated in Cuba -- and he was there many, many times.

God, Gloria, go back to your recording studio if you can't find some decent links.

Viva Batista. Forsooth.

[LostinVA]

214. Links?

[Mika]

158. VivaHenchman, you are wrong about Posada also

This article is in the Miami Herald archives (meaning: you have to buy it)

LUIS POSADA CARRILES CASE
Debate focuses on escape
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/breaking_news/11931130.htm

Did Luis Posada Carriles escape from a Venezuelan prison in frustration after twice being vindicated on terrorism charges? Or did he cut and run before justice had run its course?

That question has emerged as a high-profile point of debate between Posada and the Venezuelan government, which wants to try Posada again on charges that he participated in the 1976 bombing of a Cuban jetliner that killed 73 people.

Amid worldwide publicity about the case, the media -- including The Herald, which based its reporting on earlier articles -- have reported that Posada was acquitted twice. But a review of the case, which has been clouded by politics and nearly 30 years' time, shows the truth is more complicated than that.

What's now clear:

A Venezuelan military court acquitted him, but a higher court ordered a new civilian trial. A first set of prosecutors in that case recommended against charges, but they were replaced and a second set took the case to trial. In the midst of that trial, after nine years in prison, Posada escaped in 1985.


--


Pertierra and Joaquin Chaffardet, a Venezuelan lawyer who is assisting Posada's legal team, agree that a military court acquitted Posada, Bosch, Lugo and Ricardo in 1980, but prosecutors appealed the decision, a move allowed in Venezuelan military courts.

But a higher military tribunal nullified the first military court ruling in 1983. It noted that Posada, Bosch and the others were civilians when the bombing occurred and ordered that homicide charges should be tried in a civilian court, Pertierra said.

Venezuela now claims that since the acquittal was nullified, the entire record of the case was ''void,'' he said.

''Posada Carriles was never absolved in Venezuela,'' Pertierra said.

In the civilian arena, the first prosecutors assigned to the case found that there was insufficient evidence to file charges against Posada, according to Chaffardet, a friend of Posada's who has helped him legally for the past few years. A Herald article from 1984 said that the two prosecutors assigned to the case asked Superior Judge Jose Perez Espana to find Posada and three co-defendants innocent and recommended they be freed.

In an interview with The Herald, Chaffardet said that first refusal to file charges against Posada in 1983 may be viewed by some people as amounting to a second acquittal.

''They abstained from filing charges,'' Chaffardet said. However, those prosecutors were replaced and the new ones did file charges, he said.

Venezuela's Pertierra said he could not comment about whether the first civilian prosecutors had declined to proceed against Posada.

But even if that did happen, he said, that did not amount to an acquittal because the office of the prosecutors, the Fiscalia General, never dropped charges.

''It's a cute spin by Chaffardet, but it's not accurate legally,'' Pertierra said.

Indeed, new prosecutors were appointed and the case ground on.

The drawn-out process several times drew condemnation from the Organization of American States, which said in a resolution in 1984: ``There had been a delay in the administration of justice, since the verdict of acquittal had been handed down.''

Indeed, Posada was in prison for nine years without a clear outcome. As the new civilian trial unfolded, he escaped from prison in 1985, before the verdict was reached. Because Posada escaped, the court never rendered a verdict on him, according to Pertierra and several newspaper accounts from the 1980s.

BOSCH ACQUITTED

Bosch stayed, and was acquitted a second time in that trial in 1986. The two other defendants, Ricardo and Freddy Lugo, were convicted and each sentenced to 20 years in prison. Bosch was released from prison in 1987 and now lives in Miami.

Posada's lead lawyer, Soto, said he has based his belief that Posada was acquitted twice on the word of Chaffardet: ``My position is that he was in front of two separate judicial bodies that acquitted him of the charges.''

The first known mention of two acquittals in the media was made by The Herald in a November 1997 article detailing Posada's involvement in planning a string of bombings at Cuban tourist sites that year. That same day, the Associated Press also wrote that Posada had been acquitted twice. Since then, media outlets around the world have repeated the two-acquittal version.

The compliant "librul" media just regurgitates a false claim (2 aquittals) made by the terrorist's lawyers.

You 'saw them' and 'raised them' by one (to use a poker metaphor) on the bullshit scale.

[VivaBatista]

160. Yes, Posada was Acquitted Three Times

If the above article is from The Miami Herald Archives, then you have stolen it by posting it on this site. I am not surprised. Anyone who admires Castro as you do must have long ago made some accommodation with the 8th commandment ("Thou Shalt Not Steal," for your information).

The facts are that Posada was twice acquitted in civil trials and once in a court martial of any complicity in the Cubana airlines explosion. You can't rewrite history to suit your purposes (although that appears to be your modus operandi).

P.S.: Batista was not a henchman, alas. If he had been a henchman, he would have killed Castro in 1953 when he had the chance. Instead, he released him from prison so that he could resume his Revolution.

[Mika]

162. Sorry. You are the one rewriting history.

The military trial was voided because Posada is a civillian. You can't count a voided trial.

He was aquitted once in a civillian trial, and while waiting for the appeal trial (being held in prison as per Venezuelan law) he escaped from prison.

You could try actually reading, and try to follow, the story.

--


Your claim that "anyone who admires Castro as you do" is nothing other than an ad hominem attack by someone who hasn't read many of my posts on DU's Cuba threads.

I won't hit the Alert link because I think the personal illogical ad hominem attacks by DU's Cubaphobes should stand for all to see.

[VivaBatista]

168. History Has to be Rewritten (And Always is Being Rewritten)

And you could try thinking for yourself.

Your posts--and I have read a few--show your unquestioning devotion to Castro. But here's an excellent opportunity to show me up: Can you make any criticism of Castro at all?

As for your implicit threat to push the alert link, it does not in the least surprise me. Censoring others is what Castro and little Castros do best. Calling you a Castro supporter is not an ad hominem attack, but a logical conclusion based on your posts.

And, oh yes, the court martial was never "voided." Its verdict of "Innocent" was ignored. That's quite another thing.

[Mika]

171. Obviously, you have a reading problem

Please post some of my posts that show my "unquestioning devotion to Castro".


-

VivaBatista--> "As for your implicit threat to push the alert link, it does not in the least surprise me. Censoring others is what Castro and little Castros do best."



As I stated, I do not believe in censorship, that is exactly why I feel that your posts should stand. I suspect that you have some kind of reading comprehension problem if you conclude the exact opposite of what I stated quite clearly.

[VivaBatista]

175. Mika Has Never Said One Bad Thing About Castro

I see that you can't find even one critical remark that you may have made about Fidel Castro in the past on this site. Checkmate.

[Mika]

176. You made the claim so the onus is upon you.

You are the one who claimed that I have an "unquestioning devotion to Castro".

Please show some of my posts that show my "unquestioning devotion to Castro".

You made the claim so the onus is upon you.

[VivaBatista]

182. The Onus Is On You to Stand Up for Your Own Opinions

If you are inviting me to read your 1000 posts, I cordially decline. What I have read on this thread is enough to convince me or any impartial reader that you are an apologist for Castro. But let me make it easy for you to show me up. Is Fidel Castro a violator of human rights?

[Mika]

187. Then show me the posts.

I do stand up for my opinions, but it is up to you to provide some evidence to back up the claim that you have made, not me.

You seem to be lacking knowledge/skill of basic fact based debate.

Since you claim that this thread is enough to convince you or any impartial reader that I am an apologist for Castro, please point out that/those post(s).

It should be easy to do since its only one thread to review.

[VivaBatista]

195. Your Silence Does More to Classify You Than Your Words

I will simply invite impartial visitors to read your posts and decide for themselves. But if you insist, let me say that every post on Cuba which I have read on this thread shows your pro-Castro bias. Simple enough for you?

And, again, you refuse to condemn Castro for human rights violations. Apparently, he hasn't committed any in your opinion. Your silence does more to classify you than yours words.

[Judi Lynn]

201. You may have to wait until Mika gets back. He has a day job!

He will answer you. I've never seen him ducking anyone. He doesn't need to. He knows what he's talking about.

[Judi Lynn]

174. Hi, Mika. Your link expired, here's the new one, in "cache:"

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:mS5O59RfclsJ:www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/11931130.htm+Pertierra+and+Joaquin+Chaffardet,+a+Venezuelan+lawyer+who+is+assisting+Posada%27s+legal+team&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

Interesting article! Thank you.

[Mika]

177. Thanks Judi.

Now VivaHenchman can read it (as if..) for free.

[LostinVA]

213. Nice screen name

Batista was a real stand up guy, huh?

[LostinVA]

218. Serious question: how is your screen name any different than one

saying YayHitler, or CoolFranco, or LoveStalin?

Just curious... can't wait for the answer. I'll go work on my, "I can't think for myself because I'm a Liberal stooge, that's why I refuse to demonize Castro just because he's a Commie," book while I'm waiting.

[saigon68]

124. Victims of American Crusaders

Whe asked how he could kill children?



The Sgt stated, "Hoo Rah, you just aim a little lower at their tiny heads".

[Rex]

32. LOL

Lame attempts at propaganda.

[Walt Disney]

38. Nah, not me; however, propaganda and personality cults

have been characteristics of communist and socialist revolutions since Lenin and the Bolsheviks.

[killbotfactory]

54. There is no personality cult around Castro

[IndianaGreen]

79. But there is a Bush personality cult

Bush's adoring fans see him as GAWD's Anointed One, selected by the Almighty to rule America during the New Crusades.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VivaBatista]

142. Fidel Castro Mourns Fellow Dictator Francisco Franco

Castro has always felt a special affinity towards thugs, whether they were from the right or left. His infatuation with Mussolini was such that his university chums have attested that he was never without a volume of Il Duce's "Complete Works." Castro's love of Fascism was fed by his cassocked instructors at the elite Belen Jesuit Preparatory School, which were all pro-Franco Spanish refugees. So great was Castro's veneration for Francisco Franco that he even forgave the caudillo for having sheltered Batista in Spain for 25 years. When Franco died, Fidel Castro declared a 9-day period of national mourning in Cuba. Yes, admirers of the "Abraham Lincoln Brigade" and its British analogue, your darling Fidel Castro was Franco's boy.

Ironically, Batista, a mestizo from the proletariat, who attended a Quaker charity school and worked as a cane cutter as a youth, sympathized with the Republican cause during the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939). During this period, Cuba opened its arms and hearts to refugees from the Spanish Civil War, accepting more than 300,000 refugees, mostly Republicans. In relation to Cuba's population, the 300 thousand was tantamount to the U.S. accepting 7.5 million Jewish refugees from Hitler's terror (which, of course, would have meant no Holocaust).

So, yes, kudos to Batista for having given an indifferent world a lesson in compassionate and progressive statesmanship of which FDR was incapable.

[Judi Lynn]

146. It would be a real feat to swallow what you wrote. Congratulations.

Here's a short but much more realistic view of the rotten, vile, greedy, brutal little tumor:

FULGENCIO BATISTA
President of Cuba

Cuban Army Sergeant Fulgencio Batista first seized power in a 1932 coup. He was President
Roosevelt's handpicked dictator to counteract leftists who had overthrown strongman Cerardo
Machado. Batista ruled or several years, then left for Miami, returning in 1952 just in time for
another coup, against elected president Carlos Prio Socorras. His new regime was quickly
recognized by President Eisenhower. Under Batista, U.S. interests flourished and little was said
about democracy. With the loyal support of Batista, Mafioso boss Meyer Lansky developed
Havana into an international drug port. Cabinet offices were bought and sold and military officials
made huge sums on smuggling and vice rackets. Havana became a fashionable hot spot where
America's rich and famous drank and gambled with mobsters. As the gap between the rich and
poor grew wider, the poor grew impatient. In 1953, Fidel Castro led an armed group of rebels in a
failed uprising on the Moncada army barracks. Castro temporarily fled the country and Batista
struck back with a vengeance. Freedom of speech was curtailed and subversive teachers, lawyers
and public officials were fired from their jobs. Death squads tortured and killed thousands of
"communists". Batista was assisted in his crackdown by Lansky and other members of organized
crime who believed Castro would jeopardize their gambling and drug trade. Despite this, Batista
remained a friend to Eisenhower and the US until he was finally overthrown by Castro in 1959.
(snip)

http://www.omnicenter.org/warpeacecollection/dictators.htm#batista

[VivaBatista]

149. The Real History Of Batista

The "Sergeants Coup," in which Batista seized control, ocurred in 1933, not 1932. It is doubtful that FDR would have chosen as his "handpicked dictator" someone who was completely unknown to the Cuban people (and to him) at the time of his sudden ascent to power. Moreover, Batista was a mulatto and a leftist, which certainly would have made him an unlikely candidate for U.S. stooge at this time. Although a neophyte to politics, Batista nonetheless proved adroit at avoiding U.S. intervention in Cuba. But much more than this: he succeeded in convincing the Roosevelt administration to abrogate the onerous Platt Amendment, which had permitted the U.S. to intervene at will in Cuba (1934). So, in effect, Cuba became a genuinely free and sovereign Republic <i> after </i> Batista took over. When he did, he put an end to the revenge killings that followed the ouster of Machado and even amnesteed his former officials (as he would someday amnesty Castro himself). Unlike Castro, Batista was adverse to shedding blood (innocent or not). It was Castro, after all, who introduced the firing squad to Cuba. Before Castro, there had been no death sentence in Cuba.

In 1940, under the new Cuban Constitution adopted that year—one of the most progressive in the world—Batista was elected president of Cuba in free and fair elections. This is something else that Castro has never dared to do: submit his rule to the will of the Cuban people. Batista's administration (1940-1944) was marked by unprecedented growth (Cuba achieved the 3rd highest GNP in the Western Hemisphere) as well as social progress. It is well to remember that the coalition that brought Batista to power included the Popular Socialist Party (i.e. Communists). Batista, in fact, appointed two Communists as governments ministers during World War II. As a consequence, he was lavished with praise by leftists and fellow travellers, and even Pravda itself hailed him "as a true son of the people," which he certainly was. Batista was the first proletarian elected to the presidency of Cuba. As a youth he had worked as a laborer in the sugar cane fields. All other Cuban presidents before and after him belonged to the Cuban elite.

In 1944, Batista's party lost the elections and Batista did something that until that time no other Latin American president had done -- he turned power over to his political adversary Grau San Martín and quit the island. The New York Times declared on that occasion: "Let no one doubt that democracy exists in Latin America; it does in the youngest of her republics." On leaving office, Batista embarked on a trip of South America, where he was hailed everywhere as the hemisphere's outstanding exponent of democracy. In Chile, for example, he was received at the University by no less than Pablo Neruda, who in a speech declared Batista to be the realization of all the region's hopes and promise.

If Batista had retired from politics then, he would surely be remembered today as the "Father of Cuban Democracy." But, alas, he made a popular comeback in 1952, when he seized power in a bloodless coup (as I said, Batista didn't like to shed blood). The people welcomed his return to power because they wanted to see an end to the corruption and gangsterism that were sponsored by the democratic Grau and Prio administrations (under whose protection Castro had made a name for himself as a hitman and political prostitute).

Batista's popularity began to fade when he failed to step down after establishing order, as he had promised. Instead, he again ran for president in 1954. All other candidates withdrew from the election, and so, in effect, Batista was elected unopposed. One of the many aspiring politicians who came to see Batista to solicit his help in their congressional bids was Fidel Castro. Batista, although Castro was married to the daughter of one of his ministers, refused to support "this paid assassin" and hence lost the opportunity to co-opt him.

Discarding the idea of using the ballot box to attain power, Castro launched the attack on the Moncada Barracks infirmary, where his men butchered convalescent men in their beds. I say "his men" because Castro, ever the prudent revolutionary, did not actually participate in the attack, but ran away when he saw it was not going his way. Afraid to show himself, Castro sought the protection of the Catholic Church which arranged for his peaceful surrender to Batista.

What did Batista do? Well, he should have shot Castro, as any other dictator would have done. What would happen in the U.S. if someone attacked an army barracks today? But Cuba was governed under the Rule of Law and Batista had never tampered with the independent judiciary. Castro knew this and had no scrupples about surrendering to the "dictator." As expected, Castro was tried and sentenced to prison. He served only 22 months before Batista proclaimed an Amnesty which freed him and allowed Castro to resume his revolution. Castro, as we know, never forgave his enemies; in fact, he was equally ruthless with his friends (having killed both Camilo Cienfuegos and "Che" Guevara, among others).

Castro's rebels were ineffective against Batista's army. In fact, their strategy was always to avoid open conflict, preferring instead to bomb public places indiscriminately, to kidnap foreigners and hijack planes. In other words, Castro invented all the terrorist tactics which would later be exploited by others in the Middle East and elsewhere. Given Castro ineffectual command of the Rebel Army, Batista might have remained in power forever if the U.S. had not declared an arms embargo on his government and refused to recognize the results of the 1958 elections. It was Eisenhower's State Department, with an assist from The New York Times, that installed Fidel Castro in power. Batista had come to power as a nationalist leader without the consent, real or tacit, of the United States. Castro, on the other hand, was an American creation.

[Judi Lynn]

151. Here's some fact-based information on Batista! Imagine that.

Real Source of American Great Hostility Toward Cuba



Dr. Charles Mercieca

President of International Association of Educators for World Peace NGO,
United Nations (ECOSOC), UNDPI, UNICEF, UNCED & UNESCO
Professor Emeritus of Alabama A&M University

~snip~
Tyranny of Fulgencio Batista

Batista had the full backing of the USA simply because he had allowed American big business, which controls the US government, to exploit Cuba in a way that this island nation emerged to become one of the poorest and most desolated nation on earth. As a matter of fact, all instructors of higher education and all medical doctors were imported from overseas. Besides, some 90% of the population was illiterate and most of them lived homeless and in abject poverty. In addition, mortality rate was very high especially among little children.

In the midst of such a widespread misery and suffering, a group of young Cubans became highly alerted and decided to do something about the situation. Almost all of them resided in the United States to escape Batista’s brutality. When they felt the time was ripe, they returned to Cuba and went to hide in the mountains from where they launched a series of attacks on the Batista’s regime. Heading this Cuban group against Batista was a young lawyer whose name was Fidel Castro who was helped by Orlando Fundora and others.

Of course, we do know the rest of the story. This group succeeded to overthrow Fulgencio Batista in due time and Castro assumed power. The United States initially adopted a “wait and see” attitude. The American government wanted to study Castro and to explore ways how to have him brought under their control peacefully or by any other means conceivable.

In one of his first speeches as head of state, Fidel Castro made it clear that Cuba belongs to the Cubans and not to American big business. When it was realized that Castro meant what he said, American industrialists, who got used to exploiting Cuba without any interference, rallied around their senators and congressmen to take drastic steps against Cuba. Also, most of the followers of tyrannical Batista left the island and went to take shelter in Miami for fear of Castro. These Cubans were received by the USA with open arms and they were given later permanent residency that was followed with American citizenship.
(snip)

The few Americans that succeeded to visit Cuba were amazed at the positive and constructive things they saw in this island nation. These included such personalities as former presidential candidate George McGovern who revealed that Cuba made good inroads in the cure of cancer, President Jimmy Carter who advocated improvement of relations with Cuba, and Rear Admiral Eugene Carroll who made four good informative videotapes on Cuba for the Center of Defense information in Washington, DC.
(snip/...)

http://www.stwr.net/content/view/38/37/

[VivaBatista]

157. Before 1959, Cubans Had Highest Living Standard in Latin Amer

You must really stop cutting and pasting. I am sure that even you must know more about Cuba than Dr. Merciera. "As a matter of fact," he begins. But, of course, there are no "facts" in his commentary. The retired professor should know that during the 1950s his home state of Alabama, not Cuba, was one of "the poorest and most desolated on earth."

Before the Revolution, Cubans enjoyed the highest standard of living in Latin America; a standard of living that was the equal, and in many regards the superior, of many European countries. Pre-Castro Cuba's literacy rate was 78 percent, one of the highest in Latin America; higher, in fact, than what many experts put the U.S. literacy rate at today. Not even Castro has ever claimed that only 10 percent of Cuba's population was could read and write, as this clueless academic from the hinterlands does. In 1958, Cuba devoted a higher percentage of its national income for public education than did any other Latin American country (3.4 percent). This compares favorably to the U.S.'s 4.3% and the state of Alabama's 2.1%. In 1958, the number of students attending higher education in Cuba was 17.7 per thousand inhabitants. The rate for the U.S. was 13.5 per 1000. For your beloved Soviet Union, 9.5 per 1000. For the U.K., it was 1.9 per 1000.

As for infant mortality before the Revolution, Cuba had the lowest rate in Latin America (see the chart that I have posted on this thread). In fact, Cuba's infant mortality was lower than the comparable rates for Italy, Spain and Japan in 1958. Cuba also had one physician per 1000 inhabitants, exactly the same rate as France and higher than Great Britain (0.83 per thousand).

The Cuban Revolution, which was waged by the upper and middle classes, was not predicated on the redress of social inequities but on the restoration of democracy. When Castro seized power, he buried the ballot boxes and declared Cuba a Third World country and then proceeded to make his fantasy a fact. The truth is that pre-revolutionary was actually the first Latin American country to belong to the First World.

Here are two statistics about Castro's Cuba that I am sure you would rather not discuss: it has the highest suicide rate in the world and one of the lowest birth rates. More children are aborted in Cuba every year than are born. Castro's legacy to his countrymen may well be the extinction of the Cuban people.

[Mika]

164. Talk about rewriting history.

Your claim "Castro's legacy to his countrymen may well be the extinction of the Cuban people." is pure fantasy.

Here's Cuba's population
http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/population-health/country-profile-46.html

1950: 5,850,000

2002: 11,273,000

If you can't produce even truthful BASIC information, it leads one to doubt the bulk of your hyperbole.


---


Life might have been good for the wealthy Viva Batista elite of Cuba, but it wasn't for the vast majority of Cubans.



Before the 1959 revolution

75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.

More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.

85% had no inside running water.

91% had no electricity.

There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.

More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.

Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.

The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.

45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.

25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.

1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).

27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.

Racial discrimination was widespread.

The public school system had deteriorated badly.

Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.

Police brutality and torture were common.

[VivaBatista]

169. You Don't "Rewrite History," You Falsify It

Again with the same unsubtantiated factoids. Because you say it doesn't make it true. Cite your sources for these invented "statistics."

Yes, the population of Cuba is higher than it was 56 years ago. That is not the point. The point is that its current birth rate is practically nil. More adults die in Cuba every year than are born. If this trend continues, extinction is a very real possibility if Castro continues in power. Fortunately for the Cuban people, he's not going to live to 140, as his personal physician claims.

[Mika]

173. Its all right there in the link

VivaBatista--> "Yes, the population of Cuba is higher than it was 56 years ago. That is not the point. The point is that its current birth rate is practically nil."


Nil? Really? NOT!
http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/population-health/country-profile-46.html


Then you say..


"More adults die in Cuba every year than are born. If this trend continues, extinction is a very real possibility if Castro continues in power."


First, of course more adults die in Cuba every year than are born. Adults aren't born. Babies are.

If you are talking about deaths vs births then explain this..

Cuba population demographics..
http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/population-health/country-profile-46.html

1950: 5,850,000

2002: 11,273,000

You are simply delusional to make claims such as you are making.


The Viva Batista Kool Aid you are drinking is making you hallucinate, imo.

[VivaBatista]

185. Still Can't Refute Me

You have not refuted my statements, simply spewed more Castro propaganda, as usual.

"The Viva Batista Kool Aid you are drinking is making you hallucinate, imo."

Well, I am glad you are above ad hominem attacks.

[Mika]

189. Please explain..

.. how can Cuba's population have almost doubled from 1950 to 2002 if, as you claim (without any source), more people are dying than being born?




http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/population-health/country-profile-46.html

1950: 5,850,000

2002: 11,273,000

You seem to be unable to grasp even basic math, it seems.

[VivaBatista]

199. If Castro Lives to 140

I did not claim that this trend started in 1959. It's in the last 15 years that deaths have outpaced births in Cuba. Coupled with the world's highest suicide rate this means that Cubans see no hope in the present or the future. And Cubans will certainly become extinct if Castro lives the 140 years which his personal physician predicts.

"You seem to be unable to grasp even basic math, it seems."

I am glad you never stoop to ad hominem attacks.

And still not a peep of criticism from you for Castro's human rights record. Your silence is all I need to know about you.

[Judi Lynn]

179. "Cite your sources?" That's what we're trying to get you to do.

Your claim that you simply absorb the material then bestow your own rendering upon us hasn't been including the SOURCES necessary.

You show respect when you provide sources. This is the appropriate way to do bidness here.

This gibberish you're posting seems crafted on the dark side of the moon, far, far from the remotest chance of possibility.

[VivaBatista]

186. Think for Yourselves; Put Down the Scissors and Glue Pot

I want to know what you think, not how adept you are at cutting and pasting from sources that I do not credit.

[Mika]

190. If you are thinking for yourself then..

.. you better get some help.

You claim that Cubans face extinction, when, in fact, Cuba's population has nearly doubled since the 1950s. This is sourced in many places (if you know how to use a search engine and know how to read).


If this is the type of "thinking" that you engage in, then it is most flawed.

[VivaBatista]

206. For the 5th Time

I have never denied that Cuba's population has doubled since 1950. Cuba's plummeting birth rate didn't start in 1959 but in 1990. If Castro's personal physician is right and he lives 140 years, he may well be the last Cuban left on earth unless this trend is reversed. It would, in fact, be reversed tomorrow if Castro ended today his longest-in-Latin-America-history tenure as a dictator.

Still waiting for you to make even one criticism of Castro's human rights record.

[ronnie624]

204. Pfft!

"I am not, however, an habitue of the cutting and pasting which you and Judi favor, preferring instead to digest what I read and present it in my own words.It is you and Judi who are always regurgitating the same pap."

So, you prefer to "digest" what you read, and then "present it in (your) own words"? How convenient for one whose purpose is to disseminate propaganda from sources that many here would not find acceptable. In this context that is the very definition of "regurgitation".

After several Google searches, I have found no sources that support any of your claims and many that directly refute them including the WHO, Wikipedia, UNICEF, and even the CIA World Fact Book.

If you are not going to provide sources for the "information" you present here, then in my mind you are just one more propagandist spreading lies.

[VivaBatista]

207. The Echo Chamber

I do not find any of your sources "acceptable" and the more you quote them the more convinced I become that you can't engage anyone in a debate without resorting to cue cards. Digest what you read first and present it in your own words as cogently as you can. It's very difficult to debate an echo chamber. But I, fortunately, can do it.

[Judi Lynn]

208. Without creditable sources, you've got zip.

[ronnie624]

212. In other words

you can provide no sources for your claims.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

215. After digesting for a while what I've been reading and

with no outside sources, in my own words let me say that you're full of shit. Is this acceptable to you?

[mallard]

99. Re: Yes you did

Bushites are calling the same sides, Walt.

The war in Iraq was sold by Israel loyalists (with American citizenship) who now tell us Iran is the enemy - for wanting a civilian nuclear power program. They're 'painting' them as a target.

Without ethnic cleansing and displacement of the Palestinian population none of this would be possible!

All the while nuclear armed Israel can draw us into more war for their sake with equally productive results as Iraq, because we are at their virtual beck and call.

Destroying countries for the sake of an elitist ethnic enclave does not actually make the present, past or future victims evil.

Unchecked loyalty to Isreal has turned us into the enemy of reasonable people around the world - no matter how you try to portray the Bush/neocon images as appealing enough for the moment of attack.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudDad]

84. That's because Mr. Disney

is a right-wing troll.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

210. It's about fucking time they got rid of this asshole. But it seems he has

a twin. Oh well.

[Bridget Burke]

119. His brain just went bad during the freezing/thawing process.

Cryogenics is still a very young science....

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[0007]

209. You're a real class act!

[High Plains]

28. I see the Fifth Column is out again today.

Some of this crap is really Mickey Mouse, Disney.

[LostinVA]

42. They always appear when the Castro threads pop up

Guess Gloria Estefan is online tonight...

[SlavesandBulldozers]

45. oh!

:spray:

to the beat of the rhythm of the night.
dancing till the morning light. . .

[ronnie624]

49. I'll never forget her

thrusting herself in front of the camera during the Elian Gonzalez lunacy in Miami, advocating for the kidnapping of the little Cuban boy. I haven't been able to listen to her music since.

[Judi Lynn]

50. That did it for me, too. I also am permanently disinclined to watch any

movie, no matter how many decent actors are in it, if Andy Garcia, who stood with her, is anywhere near it. Ridiculous people.

I just looked it up to make sure I wasn't passing along only gossip, but I heard this a long time ago, and it appears to be standard knowledge:

.....Born Gloria Fajardo in Havana on September 1, 1957, she was raised primarily in Miami, FL, after her father, a bodyguard in the employ of Cuban president Fulgencio Batista, was forced to flee the island following the 1959 coup helmed by Fidel Castro.
(snip)

http://www.answers.com/topic/gloria-estefan

[ronnie624]

51. That whole debacle

was a big part of what led to my thorough disgust and complete distrust of the U.S. corporate news media-that and the coverage of the presidential campaign of 2000. :puke:

[Mika]

61. Gloria wears and sells Tshirts that say "CUBA B.C." (before Castro)..

.. meaning: Cuba & the good ol' days of Batista. :puke:

She wore one when she performed on the Today show, and when asked what it meant she said 'before Castro Cuba was free and prosperous where life was good'.

Though, it does make it easy to identify the numb nutz in/from Miami when they wear them. ;)



Before the 1959 revolution

75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.

More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.

85% had no inside running water.

91% had no electricity.

There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.

More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.

Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.

The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.

45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.

25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.

1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).

27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.

Racial discrimination was widespread.

The public school system had deteriorated badly.

Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.

Police brutality and torture were common.

___



After the 1959 revolution

It {Cuba} has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

___________

Of course, as so many of DU's "Cuba experts" (who have never been to Cuba) know, the evil Dr Castro forces universal health care and education on totally unwilling Cubans. No people would actually want those things. It has to be forced on them and they resist. Right?
:sarcasm:

[LostinVA]

65. She really makes me sick... esp. since her dad was a heavy for Batista

Wonder if she'd feel the same way if she lived in inner city Baltimore? Or on the Gulf Coast without all of that money? Yeah, didn't think so.

The only people free in Cuba "B.C." were Batista flunkies and Mafia and US fruit company workers.

[VivaBatista]

143. Infant Mortality in Cuba Pre-1959

INFANT MORTALITY IN LATIN AMERICA (Deaths During First Year Per 1000 Births) (1958)

1. CUBA 37.6
2. Paraguay 55.3
3. Panama 57.9
4. Argentina 61.1
5. Honduras 64.4
6. Nicaragua 69.3
7. Uruguay 73.0
8. Dominican Republic 76.6
9. El Salvador 79.3
10. Mexico 80.0
11. Peru 88.4
12. Costa Rica 89.0
13. Bolivia 90.7
14. Venezuela 91.2
15. Colombia 100.0

Source: Statistical Abstract of the United States

[VivaBatista]

144. PUBLIC EDUCATION IN CUBA BEFORE CASTRO

PERCENTAGE OF NATIONAL INCOME DEVOTED TO PUBLIC EDUCATION (1957-1958)

1. UNITED STATES 4.3%
2. CUBA 3.4%
3. Argentina 3.1%
4. Costa Rica 3.1%
5. Peru 3.1%
6. Chile 2.6%
7. Guatemala 2.3%
8. Brazil 2.3%
9. Colombia 1.9%

Source: Pan American Union, AMERICA IN FIGURES.




HIGHER EDUCATION STUDENTS PER 1000 INHABITANTS (1957-1958)

UNITED STATES 17.7
CUBA 13.5
U.S.S.R. 9.5
Japan 6.9
France 4.1
Italy 3.2
Germany 3.0
United Kingdom 1.9

Source: UNESCO, Basic Facts and Figures.

[VivaBatista]

145. CALORIC CONSUMPTION IN PRE-CASTRO CUBA

CALORIES CONSUMED PER PERSON PER DAY (1958)

1. Argentina 3,106
2. Uruguay 2,991
3. CUBA 2,682
4. Brazil 2,353
5. Chile 2,344
6. Peru 2,077

Source: U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization



AVERAGE SIZE OF FARMS IN HECTARES (1958)

CUBA 56.7
UNITED STATES 78.5
Mexico 82.2
Venezuela 335.0

Source: Ibid

[Mika]

166. And how about Cuba's education stats NOW. Once again, 1'st world levels

After the 1959 revolution

Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

Pointing out pre revolution stats and comparing them to recent stats really does illustrate just how badly Cuba was doing during the Viva Batista days.

[VivaBatista]

172. Castro Falsifies His Health & Education Statistics

There is a difference of 50 years between Batista's statistics and Castro's. For its time, pre-Castro Cuba was the most advanced nation socioeconomically in Latin America, outpacing many European countries, such as Great Britain. This cannot be said of Cuba today.

As for Castro's infant mortality statistics, Nicholas Everstadt of the Harvard Center for Populations Studies demonstrated, in a Wall Street Journal article some years ago, that they had been falsified by the regime, and, in actuality, stood at more than 46 deaths per thousand births, higher than in the Batista era (37.6).

[Judi Lynn]

181. Let's see a link for your claim. It's the expected thing to do here.

Here is a chart to which you can refer. It's a real chart, based on real information:

http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm

As it says:

Portions of this site are based on public domain works from the U.S. Dept. of State and the CIA World Fact Book

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
By the way, world services do NOT go and ask Castro what his stats are. The figures need to be verified to their OWN standards.

Here are some helpful stats:

The information found below was provided to Industry Canada by the U.S. Department of Commerce (STAT-USA/Internet)

Population growth rate:
0.33% (2005 est.)

Birth rate:
12.03 births/1,000 population (2005 est.)

Death rate:
7.19 deaths/1,000 population (2005 est.)

Net migration rate:
-1.58 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2005 est.)

Sex ratio:
at birth: 1.06 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.06 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.85 male(s)/female
total population: 0.99 male(s)/female (2005 est.)

Infant mortality rate:
total: 6.33 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 7.11 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 5.5 deaths/1,000 live births (2005 est.)

Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 77.23 years
male: 74.94 years
female: 79.65 years (2005 est.)
(snip)

http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/internet/inimr-ri.nsf/en/gr-05063e.html

[Mika]

165. How about now? Cuba's rates the lowest infant mortality

After the 1959 revolution

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

As it turns out, Cuba's infant mortality has decreased to 1'st world levels after Batista was kicked out.

Life might have been good for the wealthy Viva Batistanos minority, but now its much better for all Cubans.

[LostinVA]

57. I threw all her cds away that day

I'd been a fan from early, early days of Miami Sound Machine. Like SHE would have let someone keep her kids! She is extremely close to them.

Her Dad was a Batista stooge, btw.

[Walt Disney]

44. Better to be Mickey Mouse than mini-me.

[Binka]

68. Disney Is Visiting FantasyLand Again

The tea cups have left him spinning.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mika]

114. Any minute now. Last gasps. One more fall.

:rofl:

The last 10 US presidents have guaranteed/promised that Mr. Castro would go down during their reign.

I suspect he'll outlast a couple more.

[Walt Disney]

115. You've gotta stop listening to his witch doctor. You know, the one

that says Castro will live to be 140. :rofl:

[Binka]

116. Welcome To Ignore

You are tedious and trite.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ronnie624]

127. Such cheesy propaganda....

you with your pictures and your one-liners that offer absolutely nothing in the form of information or insight. And when you do post more than a line or two, it doesn't even "sound" like you. Isn't that interesting?

Your posts typify that ignorant self-certainty that is so ugly about U.S. American culture.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ronnie624]

148. If you want to post links

detailing Fidel Castro's "long history of human rights violations" then by all means feel free to do so. I'll gladly read them--if they're not from one of the freakish right-wing websites you frequent when you're not posting meaningless one-liners on DU.

It has been shown repeatedly that the economic hardships endured by Cubans are a direct result of the U.S. embargo against Cuba. Likewise the "exodus of Cubans who have fled the island" (excepting those who are probably fleeing a well deserved prison sentence). You, like most right-wingers, simply have no interest in hearing the truth.

~~~~~~~~~~

The U.S. embargo against Cuba is condemned by an ever larger and by now overwhelming majority of member-states of the United Nations General Assembly. However, it continues to be imposed by the U.S. government’s isolated but stubborn will.

In spite of the United Nations repeated injunctions, notably its resolution 56/9 of the 27th of November 2001. The purpose of this expose is to denounce this embargo in the strongest terms for the violation of law it represents, and for its total lack of legitimacy. These measures of arbitrary constraint are tantamount to a U.S. undeclared act of war against Cuba; their devastating economic and social effects deny the people to exercise their basic human rights, and are unbearable for them. They directly subject the people to the maximum of suffering and infringe upon the physical and moral integrity of the whole population, and in the first place of the children, of the elderly and of women. In this respect, they can be seen as a crime against humanity.

<snip>

The normative content of this embargo -specially the extraterritoriality of its rules, which intend to impose on the international community unilateral sanctions by the United States, or the denial of the right of nationalization, through the concept of "traffic"- is a violation of the spirit and letter of the United Nations Charter and of the Organization of American States, and of the very fundamentals of international law. This excessive extension of the territorial jurisdiction of the United States is contrary to the principle of national sovereignty and to that of non-intervention in the internal choices of a foreign states - as recognized in the jurisprudence of the International Court of Justice. It is opposed to the Cuban people’s rights to auto-determination and to development. It also contradicts strongly the freedom of trade, navigation, and movement of capital, all that the United States paradoxically claims everywhere else in the world.

<snip>

From an official Cuban source , the direct economic damages caused to Cuba by the U.S. embargo since its institution would exceed 70 billion dollars. The damages include: i) the loss of earnings due to the obstacles to the development of services and exportations (tourism, air transport, sugar, nickel; ii) the losses registered as a result of the geographic reorientation of the commercial flows, (additional costs of freight, stocking and commercialization at the purchasing of the goods...); iii) the impact of the limitation imposed on the growth of the national production of goods and services (limited access to technologies, lack of access to spare parts and hence early retirement of equipment, forced restructuring of firms, serious difficulties sustained by the sectors of sugar, electricity, transportation, agriculture...); iv) the monetary and financial restrictions (impossibility to renegotiate the external debt, interdiction of access to the dollar, unfavourable impact of the variation of the exchange rates on trade, risk-country, additional cost of financing due to U.S. opposition to the integration of Cuba into the international financial institutions...); v) the pernicious effects of the incentive to emigration, including illegal emigration (loss of human resources and talents generated by the Cuban educational system...); vi) social damages affecting the population (concerning food, health, education, culture, sport...).
<http://www.alternatives.ca/article876.html>

Thirty-eight years after the United States first imposed a trade and travel embargo against Cuba, the growth of this popular tourist resort is the most compelling evidence of the failure of this economic stranglehold. While the noose around Cuba's neck has made life difficult for its 11 million people, it hasn't come close to achieving its goal of toppling Mr. Castro.

The embargo is the Berlin Wall of the post-Cold War period. It's an ideological firewall that strains relations between politicians in Washington and Havana -- and a symbol of diplomatic arm-twisting that has virtually no popular support among dissidents here in Cuba. The embargo is championed largely by white Cuban expatriates in South Florida, many of whom were the beneficiaries of the Batista regime, which treated this nation's Afro-Cuban majority with great disdain.
<http://www.commondreams.org/views/030500-101.htm>

~~~~~~~~~~

As for your claimed possession of the "truth" (my guffaws of laughter over that one scared the hell out of my cat): How can one possibly find the truth in a sarcastic one-liner that has virtually no meaning? Your purpose here is obvious "my friend" and it has nothing to do with the truth. Your dissemination of right-wing propaganda memes reveals all the truth about you anyone here needs.

[killbotfactory]

56. Imagine, respecting a countries sovereignty self-determination!

how unamerican!

[Walt Disney]

109. The problem is that there is no "self-determination" in Cuba.

It is a fascist/communist dictatorship.

[manic expression]

141. Yes there is

people elect their own leaders, they make sure all people have access to medical care, education, housing, food and other necessities.

It is far from a dictatorship.

This next quote of yours shows how utterly ignorant you are. I don't need to add anything, I just need to remark upon the fact that you are without the slightest shred of a clue about, well, anything.

"fascist/communist"

....:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[manic expression]

140. That is quite idiotic indeed

I have come to expect nothing less from you, though.

Castro, as a head of state, is not only allowed but expected to meet with leaders of other countries. Yours does it all the time, especially with unsavory ones.

And I've already covered the complete idiocy of your last picture in depth.

Please promptly get a grip.

[IndianaGreen]

23. Excellent point by Fidel, and more anti-Cuban crap from The Guardian

The excellent point by Fidel:

Castro said if Cuba used the same logic, it could bomb the United States to kill its No. 1 enemy, Luis Posada Carriles, who is being held in El Paso, Texas on immigration charges.

It is the US that has incarcerated 5 Cubans for the crime of reporting terrorist activities against Cuba by Miami exiles. It is the US that supports terrorist activities against Cuba, and on a global scale, against any enemy of Wall Street.

The anti-Cuban crap by The Guardian:

The communist government accuses the Cuban-born Posada of masterminding numerous violent attacks against the island, including the bombing of a Cuban airliner that killed 73 people in 1976. Posada denies involvement in the bombing of the plane.

It is the Venezuelan government that has accused the former CIA-terrorist Posada of the bombing of a Cuban airliner in Venezuela. It is the Venezuelan government that has formally requested the extradition of Posada to face trial for his crimes. It was the American bin Laden, George W. Bush, that has refused to sent his Miami terrorist to Venezuela to face justice.

[killbotfactory]

52. Didn't Posada admit to his involvment while in Miami during an interview?

Anyway, here's a declassified documents to review:

Posada Boasted of Plans to "Hit" Cuban Plane, CIA Document States
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB157/index.htm

[Mika]

62. He did admit to it in a NY Times interview. Then he retracted it.

A bomber's tale: Taking aim at Castro
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/144.html


If you read this article you'll see the names of the terror ops funders of Posada's multiple bombing campaigns of hotels, movie theaters, & tourism spots in Cuba that killed and maimed people - the CANF's Mas Canosa and Feliciano Foyo.

Feliciano Foyo was a Florida republican presidential elector in the 2000 and '04 elections.

Nice huh?

[Terran1212]

30. He's absolutely right

Character assasinations aside against Castro, what he said was right. Everyone should be given a trial.

I know why he probably was not given a trial -- he would've revealed his minor and pathetic role in the "insurgency" -- showing the world that much of what he was accused of fomenting was actually being fomented by US occupation.

But he died. As well as several civilians who were burned to death for being in close proximity to him.

[Endangered Specie]

31. Define Ironic:

A ruthless dictator denouncing someone who acts as "judge and jury". :rofl:

[Nihil]

35. How about ...

... a billy-goat eater providing "definitions" for things he doesn't understand?

[Endangered Specie]

46. Hey don't knock it till you've tried it

:)

[dmoded]

43. Normally, a man of that stature..

is a wanted man... now let's forget the dead or alive metaphor for a sec. they had the guy alive, so wouldn't it be just to bring the man to court? try him for his crimes? if bush can slaughter 300,000 in a foriegn land and grin to the american public about homosexual laws, theres a few things that need to be set straight.

1st) its obvious those 500ton bombs didn't do their job. he was alive, from the pictures the *whatever* forces beat the shit out of him then killed him

2nd) If he had died by those initial bombs, fine. Target on location. but they kicked his ass first, gave him a black eye (just from the cleaned up pictures) then killed him

3rd) by not putting him in front of a tribunal (hmm G.W.... War crime tribunal, how does that sound to him i wonder) he was automatically martyred. The rest of the crazy jihadi's love it more when they see one of their own die in battlefield so to speak.

-

it would have been more of a blow to al queda if they were to keep him alive, have him show up in a courthouse daily for the murdering of innocents, see him humbled on tv but no, those short tempered desperate "special forces" had him alive, instead of bringing him to a hospital they beat him up and took care of them, themselves.

now, am i expecting any of this to make sense? these days, no... other than the fact that we have a presidential monkey who can't even eat pretzels without injuring himself, what gives.

later.

[cobalt1999]

60. a barbarous end for a barbarous man.

works for me.

[EFerrari]

64. Playing God is so much fun. n/t

[cobalt1999]

74. well, I don't believe in god

so I don't worry about stepping across the line set aside for mythical creatures.

[LostinVA]

66. That's frontier "justice," not the justice of a civilized nation

[Binka]

70. Good GOD Loving 'Mericans Adore Playing Wild Wild West

Didn't you get the memo VA? Dead or Alive I think is how Cmdr. ChuckleNuts put it.

[LostinVA]

73. Damn, Binka, I forgot, you're right -- I'm just a rotten Merakin

[Left Coast Lynn]

71. Thanks but no thanks Fidel

Your opinion on barbarity doesn't carry a lot of weight. Keep trying, though.

[Judi Lynn]

72. You may be thinking of Fulgencio Batista, obviously.

FULGENCIO BATISTA
President of Cuba

Cuban Army Sergeant Fulgencio Batista first seized power in a 1932 coup. He was President
Roosevelt's handpicked dictator to counteract leftists who had overthrown strongman Cerardo
Machado. Batista ruled or several years, then left for Miami, returning in 1952 just in time for
another coup, against elected president Carlos Prio Socorras. His new regime was quickly
recognized by President Eisenhower. Under Batista, U.S. interests flourished and little was said
about democracy. With the loyal support of Batista, Mafioso boss Meyer Lansky developed
Havana into an international drug port. Cabinet offices were bought and sold and military officials
made huge sums on smuggling and vice rackets. Havana became a fashionable hot spot where
America's rich and famous drank and gambled with mobsters. As the gap between the rich and
poor grew wider, the poor grew impatient. In 1953, Fidel Castro led an armed group of rebels in a
failed uprising on the Moncada army barracks. Castro temporarily fled the country and Batista
struck back with a vengeance. Freedom of speech was curtailed and subversive teachers, lawyers
and public officials were fired from their jobs. Death squads tortured and killed thousands of
"communists". Batista was assisted in his crackdown by Lansky and other members of organized
crime who believed Castro would jeopardize their gambling and drug trade. Despite this, Batista
remained a friend to Eisenhower and the US until he was finally overthrown by Castro in 1959.
(snip/)

http://www.omnicenter.org/warpeacecollection/dictators.htm#batista

[Left Coast Lynn]

75. Nope

"The first thing I hope we can all agree on is that no one should have any illusions about the character of the Cuban government. No one should romanticize any aspect of this cruel system, or make any excuses for Fidel Castro's abuses. The crackdown on dissent in Cuba is not the fault of the United States, or the fault of the U.S. embargo, or the fault of the Cuban-American community. The responsibility lies with Fidel Castro, period."

http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/09/cuba090403-tst.htm

[Mika]

77. Left Coast Lynn, do you mean the system that produces..

.. 100% literacy, post revolution?

You mean the system that produces more Drs per capita than any other country?

You mean the system that produces universal health care for every citizen?

You mean the system that produces free universal education for all, including higher ed?


I disagree that the responsibility for these things lies with Fidel Castro, period. It is all of the Cuban people, together, who produced these things WITH the system of government that they have.


Been there. Seen it.

[nick303]

85. Has the "free" higher ed system in Cuba produced

even one world class university?

Don't bother running to Google, I think we all know the answer already.

[Mika]

87. Cuba produces.. well never mind. You know already. NOT!

http://www.uh.cu/

I was going to mention the University of Havana, one of the oldest schools of higher ed in the hemisphere - but, you know that already.

I was going to mention that the University of Havana has cooperative agreements with many other world class universities around the world, including US universities - but, you know that already.

I was going to mention that the University of Havana has educated doctors from dozens of countries around the world - but, you know that already.

The same goes for teachers - but, you know that already.


You're right. Don't bother learning anything about Cuba. Naturally, Americans just know better pulling it out of their asses.

:sarcasm:

[nick303]

94. I'll repeat, I said *world class*

Admit it, most people, educated or not, have not heard of the University of Havana. This is no fault of their own, it's simply not up there.

Cuba has not, and will not, produce anything on par with Harvard, Penn, CalTech, Oxford, LSE, INSEAD, Todai, Keio, etc. No one from outside the country has dreams about going to University of Havana to study.

I doubt anyone could learn much about the University of Havana because they would expire long before the 9600 bps modem that the school runs on could deliver the complete page to them.

[Judi Lynn]

96. I repeat, people from all over the world study there.

There are students from the U.S. who attend the medical school at the University of Havana.

You don't speak for "most people."

Other countries have exchange programs with Cuban universities, as I wrote in my post.

Universities in the States have had exchange programs up and running for years, until _Bush slimed into the White House.
There have been hordes of American students who've gone to Cuba in summer sessions.

You need to do a little reading.

[Mika]

100. Why bother. Mr nick knows all about Cuba.

He's a new DU "Cuba expert", who knows all about what people from other nations who seek affordable/free higher ed dream about. He knows that people from desperate nations wanting to learn medical and teaching degrees would never dream of a U of H education to bring back to their native country to use in serving their fellow citizens. And, no nations have ever thanked the government of Cuba for helping in this regard.

Mr nick knows all about Cuba. He's a "Cuba expert".

[nick303]

137. Deep in your heart, you know I'm right

No amount of posturing or grasping can deny it.

When I read scholarly journals, I never see anything coming from Cuba.

But let's put aside the anecdotes.

Conspicuously absent here is the University of Havana:
http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2005/ARWU2005_Top100.htm
(Edited to add, you actually will not find it anywhere in the Top 500)

Also conspicuously absent is the "Dirección de Relaciones Internacionales" from UH's website:
http://www.uh.cu/infogral/dir_rela_inter.htm

If anyone sees it, tell it I'm looking for it.

[Bridget Burke]

120. Well, Bush the Younger graduated from Yale...

And got his MBA from Harvard. So much for "world class" universities.

Most of the great universities were started by governments & churches that wanted to educate the sons of the ruling classes. As the centuries passed, philanthropists kept them flourishing--& even founded some on their own. As time passed, the merely brilliant of other social classes were admitted. Eventually, even other races & the other gender were admitted.

Cuba's colonial rulers allowed the Church to open schools; later, there were some non-religious colleges. But they were mostly available to a select few. Since the Revolution, free education has been open to ALL.

How many other small island nations have "world class universities"? The rich colonial powers were the ones who money to spare on education for centuries. We remember the Old Empires--England & France. Here in the New Imperial Power, higher education has been getting farther out of reach for the MANY who aren't even trying for the prestigious schools.

[Judi Lynn]

89. Not sure what you're fishing around for. The University of Havana

is surely well known worldwide. Here's a great project two outstanding Democratic Congressmen spearheaded:

Reaches Out To Forge Links With Cuba

By Doug Gavel
Gazette Staff

At a time when U.S—Cuban relations are at best strained and at worst bordering on crisis, a group of Harvard scholars is working to strengthen educational and cultural ties between the two longtime adversaries. The group went on a five-day trip to the island nation last week.

The trip was coordinated by the Washington Office on Latin America with the express purpose of expanding research collaboration and academic exchange programs involving the United States and Cuba. The 50-member delegation was headed by Massachusetts congressmen Joe Moakley and James McGovern, and included representatives from more than a dozen Massachusetts colleges and universities. The Harvard contingent was led by Jerome Murphy, Dean of the Graduate School of Education (GSE) and Stephen Reifenberg, executive director of the David Rockefeller Center for Latin American Studies.

"There was a great interest {among the participants} in finding out what’s going on {in Cuba} – particularly in the areas of education and health, and in the arts, and then looking for some possible areas of collaboration," Reifenberg says.
(snip)

Another result of contacts established during the trip will be a direct exchange of documentation and research on Latino immigration patterns in the United States. GSE Professor Marcelo Suarez-Orozco, co-director of the Harvard Immigration Project (HIP), spoke on the topic last week at the University of Havana. "They were very interested in our new research initiatives at the HIP on the new Latin American immigration," Suarez-Orozco says. "There is some interest on their part to be brought up to date on issues relating to this new Latino immigration pattern, and in the context of that, there’s a lot of interest in trying to send some Cuban scholars to the University."

Suarez-Orozco was impressed with the reception he received in Havana. "My sense is they are tremendously eager, certainly at the university level to {establish greater} communications {between the two countries}. There’s a great deal of interest about life in the United States, about sports, about the universities, about research. That’s what struck me the most."
(snip/...)

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2000/04.27/cuba.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are many U.S. universities which have had exchange programs working for many years. There's a well-known Cuban professor who has been teaching at Harvard for a couple of years before returning to Cuba. I've posted articles on him in several years ago.

U. S. university professors used to travel to Cuba a LOT before _Bush stole the pResidency, and Cuban professors came here continuously for various reasons. That was almost brought to a screeching halt altogether after _Bush. One professor was actually on the plane when they cancelled his engagement to speak at a university in Florida. All he could do was get off the plane, and spend the afternoon and evening with his friend who came to get him at the airport, then go back home.

You must remember that when Elián Gonzalez was enrolled in the Lincoln Martí day school owned by Cuban "exile" Demetrio Pérez, in Miami, they discovered he was FAR AHEAD of the students in his grade level, don't you?

Here's a list of some of the Cuban universities. They have exchange programs established with other countries, as well.
http://www.webometrics.info/university_by_country.asp-country=cu.htm

Have you never heard of the students who come to the medical school at the University of Havana from all over the world? They even go there from the U.S.

You would probably benefit from spending a little time trying to do some research on the subject. Just because you have never heard of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist, does it? Probably not.

[IndianaGreen]

92. The poster also ignores the fact that college education is becoming

a privilege of class in America, rising tuitions and cuts in grants either force the students to mortgage their future by borrowing heavily, or causes those from modest or low income to skip college altogether.

In Cuba college is free!

[nick303]

97. Blindly praising free higher education is intellecually lazy

"Free education" is also something of a misnomer.

Point 1: It doesn't always work.

A former coworker of mine had "free" higher education in Pakistan. There were a few problems with this though:

a) Professors would show up to class and give a very cursory explanation of the material. They would then conclude the class.
b) These very same professors ran businesses on the side as private tutors. Due to the difficulty of the material it was almost necessary to go to them. He sheepishly admitted that it was kind of wasteful since you were essentially "going to class twice." I'll also ignore the fact in this instance most free universities in the country mentioned required religious studies, whether you liked it or not.

Point 2: It isn't always sustainable, or free for everyone.

See: English universities.

Point 3: Whether you are mortgaging or not is besides the point. All statistical studies will bear out that the present value of future increases in income due to a college education justifies the cost.

[IndianaGreen]

98. I paid my own way through college since I was not blessed

with being born in the proper socio-economic class.

[nick303]

135. That's honorable.

However your post does not address anything that I said in my post.

[LostinVA]

107. See: Australian Universities

And yeah, a free education system IS free for every qualified student. And, it certainly is sustainable, if that government sees the education of its citizens as IMPORTANT. Which our government doesn't.

If what you stated about Pakistan is true, Pakistan is not Cuba, Australia, etc. Of course, I just told a colleague who went to a university in Pakistan what you said: he laughed and rolled his eyes. Maybe your coworker went to the Pakistan equivalent of a Z-level university.

[Judi Lynn]

128. Well, it surely figures! Thanks for the reaction to the yarn from one who

would know!

Some people will say anything about countries they don't think most Americans are likely to know well. They must figure no one will know the difference.

[LostinVA]

131. Truly! n/t

[nick303]

147. My story still stands

I don't know how his university stood in prestige, but the story still is as he told it. He had no agenda, it was just an anecdote. I used it here to illustrate that people will do whatever they can to get around the system when they feel they aren't getting what's due to them. The country in question was not central to the story so I don't see why everyone is jumping up and down about it.

[Bridget Burke]

122. But Pakistan is our FRIEND!

Why don't you treat us to the horrors of Cuban education?

I did meet some Cuban artists--back when Cultural Travel from (& to) the island was easier to arrange. Many of them critiqued society in their art; some may not have gotten government jobs, but they were NOT thrown in jail.

Lázaro Saavedra visited Houston in the late 90's & presented work in several venues. He also sold some--although he had many European patrons, able to visit Cuba. Check out his installation for the 1997 Havana Biennial: in the chamber of the old Fortaleza de la Cabaña that was used for executions after the Revolution: www.universes-in-universe.de/car/havanna/cabana/e_saav.htm

His work was featured in a show at The Mattress Factory back in 2004. OUR government refused Visas to the artists. www.mattress.org/index.cfm?event=ShowProduct&category=10&ProdID=61

Back to education--the Cuban artists I met ALL agreed that they got fine artistic educations that they would NEVER have received under the Old Regime.

And higher education in the USA used to be more affordable. It was easier to work one's way through & NOT end up in debt. (And some of us think that a higher paycheck is not the only reason for education.)

[Judi Lynn]

130. "Detrimental to the Interests of the United States." That would have NEVER

happened under a Democratic administration. That sounds bad, as if we've got some spiteful, petty, twisted people in charge.

[nick303]

134. I never claimed to have a problem with the country of Pakistan itself

It was just a passing detail.

[K-W]

136. Most of the pakistani government doesnt work,

its got nothing whatsoever to do with a free higher education.

And studies also show that the value of a college education is dropping. But perhaps that will change once fewer and fewer people are able to afford one.

[IndianaGreen]

90. I bet that Cuban college students can find the English Channel on a map

while most American students haven't got a clue where to even look for the English Channel.

[nick303]

95. Your post is meaningless for the following reasons

1) You don't have any concrete evidence that would allow you to make this conclusion.
2) Determining where the English Channel is on a map is not a complicated process that requires intense thought. It is a task better suited to 10 year olds than college students.
3) Determining where the English Channel is on a map is not a practical skill that is necessary or useful in any matter to the vast majority of the world. You could go to your grave having lived a happy productive life without knowing where the English Channel is on a map.

[Nimrod2005]

76. Praise the Lord....

:rofl:

[DuaneBidoux]

78. Fuck Castro. He got what he deserved.

[smitty]

80. Who cares what a superannuated communist dictator says?

[Judi Lynn]

81. I believe we get some of these majestic specimens occassionally.

They visit to share their elevated views. Deep thinkers. Well informed, too! Or not.



Freep rally.

[Mika]

82. Oh yeah.

A lot of DU's "Cuba experts" chiming in with their well studied expertise. :rofl:

[LostinVA]

108. Yup, always showering us with their ex-Batista-henchmen views

on Cuba and Castro... it's why I honestly just love these Castro threads...

[smitty]

126. Castro has been in power for over 47 years.

There are no opposition parties, no free press, no free speech, dissidents are in jail. He's a dictator.

The exact opposite of what Democrats stand for.

[robcon]

86. Cuban dictatorship is a barbarity

Castro should shut up.

[Mika]

88. Here is barbarity

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/teachers/lessonplans/math/incarceration_story_9-05.html

The prison population in the U.S. has reached its highest figure ever. In addition to creating budget problems for many states, the high number of prisoners has put a strain on family life and social services.

The U.S. prison population reached a staggering two million people in 2002, according to a report released by the U.S. Department of Justice.

The new figure marks a 2.6 percent increase over the 2001 inmate population.

"The U.S. now locks up its citizens at a rate 5-8 times that of the industrialized nations to which we are most similar, Canada and Western Europe," said Marc Mauer, Assistant Director of The Sentencing Project, a non-profit criminal justice research and advocacy group.

While Canada imprisons 116 people out of every 100,000 in the country, the U.S. locks up 702 people per 100,000.

[Judi Lynn]

93. Grotesque. Lucky for rightwingers like the Bushes, they know they've got

good close friends in the private prison building and maintainance businesses, so there's a real silver lining in these dark clouds for them.

And they've learned they can compromise them psychologically, now, too, by forcing them to pretend to be fundie assholes like them in order to get any kind of advantage at all in the new "faith based" prisons.

What a bunch of vicious scum we've got running the place. It's not going to last forever. They'd better enjoy it while they can.

[ronnie624]

101. Here are some examples of barbarities:

Remember My Lai? In just a few hours, Lieutenant William Calley's men shot or knifed more than 400 men, women, and children, raping and mutilating some victims. Even that chilling episode, however, pales alongside US tactics in the Vietnamese and Cambodian countryside, where high explosives, napalm, and defoliant were the methods of choice.

<snip>

Serbian forces killed some 10,000 Kosovars, but in Southeast Asia the United States and its allies slew 1 million, many of whom were civilians. More than twice that number were wounded or forcibly displaced.

Direct US involvement in war crimes continued even after the Vietnam conflict. CIA operatives mined Nicaragua's main harbor in the 1980s, and until the 1990s, US Army courses for Latin American soldiers included torture. In the early 1990s, CIA agents created a right-wing group in Haiti that killed hundreds of civilians.

Although most Americans barely recall those events, others elsewhere have not forgotten. For them, the contemporary US fascination with human rights seems empty and cynical. If the United States does not investigate its past misdeeds, these suspicions will ring true.

In addition to directly participating in abuses, the United States also covertly aided brutal authoritarians abroad. Just as Milosevic pulled the strings during Bosnia's ethnic cleansing, the United States secretly sponsored cruel allies to advance political goals.

Consider Chile, where CIA operatives helped overrow an elected leftist leader in the early 1970s, creating the long nightmare of Pinochet's rule. The Chilean judiciary is now investigating Pinochet's crimes, but the CIA is only reluctantly opening its files.

Or recall Iran, where US operatives in the 1950s helped depose an elected government that was threatening Western oil profits. They then installed the Shah, a dictator who relied on torture to maintain control.

The same is true for Guatemala, where UN-backed investigators found that government counterinsurgency forces killed 90 percent of an estimated 200,000 civil war victims.

<http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/us-atrocities.htm>

During the 20th century, the Korean people have been forced to suffer severe agony by the U.S.

The Korean people were victims of atrocious crimes in the U.S.-launched Korean War from 1950 to 1953. In the three-year war, about 6 million Korean people were sacrificed, and 4 million of the total war dead were civilians, not combatants. Immoral massacres and indiscriminate napalm- or germ-bombing by the U.S. troops took their lives.

But the world knows only distorted facts about this, because mass media and major powers of the world have schemed to cover up the truth on a large scale for fear of the disclosure of facts about U.S. troops’ atrocities. So, we have an important duty to make public the truth of history.

<http://www1.korea-np.co.jp/pk/161st_issue/2001052704.htm>

~~~~~~~~~~

I can't seem to find any detailed information on the Cuban history of coups d'etat, invasions, proxy wars and general slaughtering of millions all over the world. Perhaps you could help out with a link or two.

If all you have is a simple link to Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, I'll understand. You simply don't have a leg to stand on.

[killbotfactory]

103. Castro helped the notoroius terrorist...

Nelson Mandela, in South Africa. They are friends to this day.

[Mika]

104. And Cuba offered help to the terrorists in NOLA after Katrina.

The Henry Reeves Brigade. Named in memory of an American.

BushCrimeInc never responded to the offer.



Exporting healthcare: Cuba and the real meaning of internationalism
http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/cubasi_article.asp?ArticleID=63

In 2005, the first 1,610 students graduated from ELAM and at their graduation ceremony in September, President Fidel Castro further announced the formation of the Henry Reeves International Contingent of Doctors Specialising in Disaster Situations and Serious Epidemics - a brigade to provide specialist medical aid in disaster and emergency situations around the world. The Henry Reeves brigade arose from Cuba's offer to the US to send 1,600 medical doctors to the Gulf Coast to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina. This offer has never even received a response.

-

The Henry Reeves brigade is named after one of a group of North Americans who went to Cuba in May 1869 to join the rebel side fighting for Cuba's independence from Spain. Born in Brooklyn, Henry Reeves fought in 400 battles, until, when incapable of fighting from the wounds sustained in the course of 7 years of war, he finally fell in combat on August 4 1876, near Yaguaramas, today in the province of Cienfuegos. His name is etched next to that of Lincoln and other Americans on the pillars of the Plaza, built in 2001 at the time of the struggle for the return of Elian Gonzalez by Cuba,

---


Oh yeah, the Cubans REALLY hate Americans.
:sarcasm:

[0007]

211. A man that Cheney wanted to keep locked up forever.

[IndianaGreen]

102. Let's compare US troops to Hitler's armies, shall we?

Notice the similarities between US troops in Iraq and the Wehrmacht. US troops have killed more innocent civilians in Iraq, over 100,000 according to The Lancet report, than Hitler's Wehrmacht did in Poland:

The war crimes of Wehrmacht include:

Atrocities during Invasion of Poland

Wehrmacht units killed over 16,000 Polish civilians during the 1939 September campaign through executions, terror bombing of open cities or murder. After the end of hostilities, during the Wehrmacht's administration of Poland, which went on until October 25 1939, 531 towns and villages were burned, the Wehrmacht carried out 714 mass executions and a number of other crimes. Altogether, it is estimated that 50,000 Polish civilians had perished including 7000 Jews.(1)

Atrocities during the Battle of France

Between May 25th and May 28th, the German Wehrmacht committed several war crimes in and near the small village of Vinkt. Hostages were taken and used as human shields. As the Belgian army continued to resist, farms were searched (and looted) for more hostages who were later executed. In all 86 civilians were executed, but the total death toll was probably 140. The reason for the carnage is unclear. See massacre at Vinkt.

Destruction of Warsaw

Further information: Battle of Warsaw (1939) and Warsaw Uprising

Up to 250,000 civilians were murdered by German led forces during the Warsaw Uprising. Human shields were used by German forces during the fighting and during the Wola Massacre 50,000 civilians were executed to intimidate the Poles into surrender.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht

References

1. Davies, Norman. Forgotten Holocaust: The Poles Under German Occupation 1939-1944, Richard C. Lukas, Hippocrene Books. ISBN 0781809010.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rman]

205. That's common knowledge,

created by means of RW/corporatist propaganda.

[Matilda]

105. If there's any truth in the rumours that al-Zarqawi was killed

by US troops after the bombing, then barbarity is probably the appropriate word, although I wouldn't
shed tears for him.

But I think Castro is just playing politics as usual - like Chavez, he enjoys taunting Bush. And
it's hard to fault his logic regarding Posada - there's not much difference between Posada and
Zarqawi, or between the US right to bomb a suspect's hideout, and that of Cuba to do the same.

[demo dutch]

106. They should have kept him alive.. he would have been more useful

that way!

[jahyarain]

133. thank you!

it's called information. and he was FULL of it

[Biernuts]

155. I'm amazed that he lived at all beyond the 1st bomb

It was a laser-guided penetrator JDAM that didn't go boom until after it has gone through the roof and was in the house's main area. What doomed everyone at this point was the solid construction - you're essentially in a bank vault when a 500 lb explosive goes off. Most will be killed instantly - he was not but the blast effects, particularly the overpressure wave caused immediate permanent incapication with injuries that could not be reversed.
There is no medical care in our time that could have saved him. You have to wait for the stuff you see in Sci-fi to be invented. (Hey doc, how about a new leg!)

The 2nd bomb, a GPS-guided, GBU that leveled the structure into what was seen in the pictures. It was not a penetrator round but worked on the structure from the outside.

[Spinoza]

129. Amoral, murderous

dictators (e.g. Castro) are generally not pleased when amoral, murderous, wannabe dictators (e.g.Zarqawi) are blown up.

[Judi Lynn]

200. To DU'ers who participated in a recent thread here, you might want to see

this. I ran across it accidently, looking for something in google. It's a freeper thread concerning the Cuban gay soap opera which just debuted in Cuba. We discussed it here very recently. You might find this enlightening!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1645474/posts

[Moderator]

219. Lock

no longer breaking news
off-topic posts
flames