Alaskan Wild Cattle Herd Faces Expulsion

[Socialist Christian]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=718&e=4&u=/ap/20031120/ap_on_re_us/island_cattle

<snip>

CHIRIKOF ISLAND, Alaska - They are touted as some of the hardiest cattle in the world, robust members of a wild herd that's roamed this remote Alaska island for more than 100 years.

The herd has survived long stretches without a human caretaker on Chirikof Island, in the turbulent Gulf of Alaska. Initially introduced in the late 1800s, the animals supplied meat for early pioneers, including whaling crews and an Arctic blue fox industry established by Russian fur traders.


Tim Jacobson, the latest in a long line of adventurers to lay claim to the animals, sees great commercial potential in the 800-head herd, either as range-fed beef or superior breeding stock. But first, he has to figure out a way to get them off the storm-lashed island — and time is running out. The federal government wants its land back.


"There's not anything like them," Jacobson, 39, said of the herd in a recent interview on the treeless island. "These cattle have the texture and taste of elk more than beef."

[amber dog democrat]

1. why not let them stay?

like the wild horses of Sable Island? I saw herds of buffalo on Kodiak a couple of years ago near Fossil Bay. I still still treasure that encounter.

interesting.

[dusty64]

2. I agree they

ought to leave them alone.

[xchrom]

3. just leave 'em alone

god, do we have to fuck with everything?

[Beaker]

5. fuck with everything??

It's not like they're indigenous to the island. It could even be said that we'd be correcting a mistake that was made over 100 years ago. The cattle have survived, even thrived, but at what cost to whatever the natural ecosystem of the island is?

[Superfly]

6. DOn't you think that in 100+ years

with no harvest of bovines to speak of on that island other than the occasional one or two animals, don't you think that the island ecosystem may have reached equillibrium again and "adjusted" to the presence of cattle?

Removing the cattle may cause harm to the island ecosystem, again. Just let them be.

[Beaker]

7. No.

Herds of cattle are generally pretty destructive to an environment. It would be best to let the natural conditions, flora and fauna return to the ecosystem.

[Superfly]

8. That's what I'm saying...

they are now part of the natural ecosystem and removing them may upset the balance as the introduction of cattle might have done 100 years ago.

[Beaker]

11. They are NOT part of the natural ecosystem.

100 years is less than nothing in the scope of "nature's" concept of time.
The cattle were brought there to be food for humans. With the humans gone, the cattle should be taken away as well.

If you favour leaving the cattle, then you surely can't be against ANWR on the grounds of it having an effect on the ecosystem of the area, right?

[Superfly]

14. Don't think your question makes sense

but as for the first part, and this is speaking without any formal knowledge on this particular island ecosystem (how about you?), I assert that the cattle probably produce no discernable threat to the micro-ecosystem as it is right now. I further assert, that removing the cattle will cause a temporary loss in equilibrium as the island readjusts to the absence of them.

I'm not sure I understand your red herring of a question, so I will not answer it.

[demdave]

16. "without any formal knowledge on this particular island "

and yet you still assert. lolololol

[Superfly]

19. Yes, I do.

And until better evidence comes along, I will continue to do so.

Your article provided that evidence and I changed my stance. thank you.

Now, a question for you: Why are you being such an A-hole?

[demdave]

21. Because people who purposefully spew uninformed remarks

hurt our cause and cast a pall of ignorance over the entire group. What is so hard about informing yourself before you open your mouth. Until 2 minutes ago, I had never even heard of this island. Now someone in here is telling me about military/industrial secrets. WOW. This is the kind of mindless tinfoil spittle that makes our party look like gibbering fools. I hate that.

[Superfly]

22. I knew absolutely nothing about this island

yet, based on the information I did have, I made my assertions. You posted articles that showed my position was flawed, and I conceded, accordingly. It's called being adults. You should try it some time.

[demdave]

23. I knew absolutely nothing about this island

yet, based on the info I had ---"absolutely nothing"--- I kept my mouth shut and informed myself. It took almost 3 minutes to do that. It is called being an informed adult. You should try it some time. It will free up alot of the time you obviously spend defending false assertions.

[Superfly]

25. I defended a false assertion

until you provided evidence to make me change my position. It's called argument and it's fun.

The WHOLE FUCKING PURPOSE of DU is to have people uniformed on important subject become informed through CIVILIZED discourse. You blew tha right out of the water with your opening remark.

So, it's people like YOU who give DU a bad name (to some people).

Oh, yeah. How can you have ofer 1300 posts, try to uphold the quality of DU by being a thread cop, AND NOT HAVE DONATED?

[Heddi]

34. Isn't that comment a bit rough:

Oh, yeah. How can you have ofer 1300 posts, try to uphold the quality of DU by being a thread cop, AND NOT HAVE DONATED?

maybe he's out of a job?

Maybe he's got kids to support

Maybe he's living on a limited income.

How DARE you insinuate that someone isn't a 'good du'er' because they haven't donated?

Why haven't you donated on his behalf? Are you paying his bills? feeding his children? Are you his accountant? Do you have power of attorney over his financial situation?

well, until you do any of the things listed above, I think you should quit with the 'why haven't you donated' shit.

THe only reason I have a star is because someone donated FOR ME.

So I guess that I, too, am a bad DU'er because I didn't donate myself (Damn myself for living on a limited income and valuing having a roof over my head and food in my belly. Bad, bad heddi!)

[Superfly]

35. Because, my dear

I am out of a job (since April).

I have kids to support (they're on the way)

I am living on a limited income.

And yet, I dared to donate to DU.

Go figure. Some things are worth giving money to, even if money is a scarce commodity.

[Heddi]

36. so because you made the choice

then EVERYONE should?

Because YOU can afford to make a donation, then EVERYONE can?

[Superfly]

37. No, but you should not presume to

dictate to others how they can post if you, yourself, have made no effort to be an active supporter of DU.

[demdave]

38. WOW, so now even Heddi shouldn't be allowed to comment

because she had someone else donate? If I donate more than you, can I tell you to shut up? I guess you don't believe in the FREEdom of speach idea.

All this rancor because you were shown how intentionally uninformed you were.

[Superfly]

40. Do we really have to go over this?

1) I admitted I was uninformed. Is that some horrible sin? According to you, yes it is, and I should have kept my mouth shut.

2) I don't care if you donate or not, but it seems pretty damned conceited of you to police this board (by telling me to keep my mouth shut) even though you choose not to be a fiscal supporter of DU.

3) I believe 100% in freedom of speech, but I will not take advice on when and how to post from somebody (you) who enjoys the open environment of DU, but chooses not to donate.

[Beaker]

26. I knew absolutely nothing about this island

But I do know what a herd of cattle can do to a piece of land, and that these particular cattle weren't indiginous to this island.

[Superfly]

17. Nevermind, I just saw Demdave's post

and I was wrong.

[Beaker]

24. Regarding that red herring-

"I'm not sure I understand your red herring of a question, so I will not answer it."

Wow. That sounds so much like a reponse that the Lil'Dictator gave at his recent "press" conference, it's scary.

BUT- the point I was trying to make is this- You seem to espouse the view that: once man goes in someplace and fucks up the ecosystem, a new(and possibly better?) ecosystem is created, so what's the big deal?

I'm assuming that in actuality, you do oppose ANWR, and I'm just trying to point out the parallels between that potential situation and the one on this island.

[Superfly]

27. Gotcha...

I just wasn't sure if I understood you...now I do.

I was wrong about this little island paradise, thanks to Demdave.

I am opposed to ANWR (drilling). I do not oppose the ANWR as a park, as your question stated.

peace

[Beaker]

28. when I was say ANWR- I'm referring to the Lil' Dictators pet project

the ANWR legislation, not the Refuge itself. my mistake. I wouldn't expect you to be against the Refuge.

[Superfly]

30. You would have to be a serious

anti-environmental asshole to be against the ANWR itself. Oh, wait, that's el-fuck-o in the WH.

[Beaker]

29. .

[NickB79]

33. Look at other islands we've introduced species to

Has an equilibrium been reaching in Hawaii, or to a greater extent, Australia, with all the non-native species running loose? No. They've already wiped out many native species, and keep spreading and destroying native species habitat. As was already stated, 100 yrs is less than a blink of an eye in evolutionary terms. Protected islands like this are vital to the survival of many seabirds, and predators hunting their eggs and trampling their nests is not helping.

[Superfly]

4. Question I have is

why does the fed gubment want the island "back"? What are their plans for it? How far is this place from ANWR and associated petrol fields? Does the DoD have some plans for it?

[Minstrel Boy]

9. that is THE question

and thank you for asking it.

[demdave]

12. You obviously have a computer, do you know how to google?

There is no conspicacy or secret here, they want to get the non-indigenous animals off the island and allow the native ground nesting birds and flora and fauna to re-establish.

Take off the tinfoil and put your glasses back on.

[Superfly]

15. Relax, man, no tinfoil hat here

but it's a valid question.

[Minstrel Boy]

18. Do you know the nature of military-industrial secrets,

and that some of them may be kept from you?

[demdave]

20. And the closet monster is real because we have no evidence that he exists

[demdave]

13. keybounce sorry

[demdave]

10. They are dangerous to the indigenous birds

July 28, 2002
The Alaska Maritime National Wildlife Refuge plans to begin barging cattle off Chirikof Island in the next several weeks, refuge manager Greg Siekaniec said.



The cattle are being removed to allow indigenous animals to re-establish themselves, especially the bird population.


''They'll have to work with the tides. This is 100 years of people trying to barge the cattle off and not being very successful,'' Siekaniec said.



Sept. 13, 2002
Cattle boat remains grounded on Chirikof Island

Manfred Dietrich, owner/operator of the motor vessel Flying D, contacted the Marine Safety Detachment office in Kodiak Monday morning reporting that the vessel was stranded above the high tide line and that he was unable to re-float the landing craft.

Dietrich contacted several commercial salvage companies to make arrangements to salvage the Flying D. However, the companies either had prior commitments or were unable to travel to Chirikof because of the impending weather conditions.

Four thousand gallons of diesel fuel are located in four saddle tanks in the aft portion of the vessel and are integral to the vessel’s hull structure. At low tide the vessel sits level on the beach. The vessel’s rudder and propellers are imbedded in the sand.

November 18, 2001
Despite protests from area ranchers, federal wildlife managers are forging ahead with plans to remove all cattle from a tiny island 175 miles southwest of Kodiak where the livestock have roamed for decades. Introduced foxes may also be eliminated in order to return Chirikof Island, part of the Alaska Maritime Wildlife Refuge, to its native species.

The problem with both the cattle and the foxes is their impact on sea birds, Siekaniec said. The foxes feast on bird eggs, while the cattle ruin nesting grounds.

''What livestock tend to do on these islands is change the composition of the habitat,'' Siekaniec said. ''They discourage any ground-nesting type birds by removing vegetation.''

Instead of just taking your normal "the government is evil and F**ing with everything" stance, take 10 seconds to do a google and inform yourself about a topic. Maybe that way you could add something to the discussion instead of just spewing discontent and drivel.

[Character Assassin]

32. Here's a question: so the hell what?

Ok, so they may or may not cause some birds some problems. Not like they haven't already been doing so for upwards of 120 years, but frankly, why does this matter?

The problem with both the cattle and the foxes is their impact on sea birds, Siekaniec said. The foxes feast on bird eggs, while the cattle ruin nesting grounds.

The problem, from what I have found, is that this isn't necessarily a problem.

Instead of just taking your normal "the government is evil and F**ing with everything" stance, take 10 seconds to do a google and inform yourself about a topic. Maybe that way you could add something to the discussion instead of just spewing discontent and drivel.

Mindless, babbling hysteria doesn't look good on you.

[demdave]

39. Next time I will make sure to run all articles past your review for

newsworthiness. /sarcasm/

[Character Assassin]

41. I didn't say "Don't post the message"

"So what?" was in regards to the cattle's presence on the island.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

31. Gee this rancher really doesn't get it.

Jacobson told them if he's evicted, he planned to "step out with everything."

"Every fence I've put up, every improvement I've made. Everything comes down," Jacobson said.

The Feds are trying to turn the island into a wildlife sanctuary, and he's threatening to take out his 'improvements' and fences.


Ummm, fella, the wildlife don't consider your fences an 'improvement' lol.

[blindpig]

42. off the praire roaches

After the direct effects we humans have on the natural world introduced species have the most destructive effect on biodiversity. Freerange cattle are a curse on the west, terribly degrading both watershed and rangeland.