Chavez: Imprison 'genocidal' Bush

[WhiteTara]

a man after my own heart...Viva Chaves

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/05/15/britain.... /
LONDON, England (CNN) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has accused George W. Bush of committing genocide and said the U.S. president should be imprisoned by an international criminal court.

The leftist leader made his remarks on Monday at a joint news conference with London Mayor Ken Livingstone after a reporter for the BBC likened some comments of his to Bush's phrase, first delivered shortly after the September 11 terrorist attacks, "You are either with us or against us in the fight against terror."

At that, Chavez erupted in anger about being "compared to the biggest genocide person alive, in the history of humanity, the president of the United States -- killer, genocidal, immoral -- who should be taken to prison by an international court. I don't know to what you are referring when you compare me to President Bush."
snip
Published reports have said the United States has drawn up plans to attack Iran if Tehran fails to abandon its nuclear program. U.S. officials have said there are no specific plans to do so.

No country, Chavez said, "has the right the prohibit a country from having nuclear energy." He said he is sure that the Iranians are not working on a nuclear weapon, as U.S. officials have claimed.

[stepnw1f]

1. Here Come The Anti-Chavez Marketers

[Phx_Dem]

5. Chavez is a moron.....

[stepnw1f]

6. Is That All

awwwwww, man. You let me down. Pathetic...

[Phx_Dem]

7. sorry to disappoint...

but you read the same article I did, no need to elaborate IMO.

[stepnw1f]

8. Why Not Mystery Man?

You reading the same article as me means nothing at all. Are you an "Anti-Chavez" marketer?

[Phx_Dem]

10. I'm not marketing anything

just stating an opinion.

[stepnw1f]

16. Then I Guess I Wasn't Talking To You

Merry Fitzmas

[arikara]

24. We aren't reading the same article then

because there isn't anything unreasonable about what Chavez said in that article.

Some examples:

Have I invaded any country? Have Venezuelans invaded anything? Have we bombarded a city? Have we had a coup d'etat? Have we used the CIA to kill a president? Have we protected terrorists in Venezuela? That's Bush!

Chavez warned that an attack against Iran would cost the world's oil consumers dearly.

"If there was an attack against Iran, the price could go to $100" per barrel from the current level of about $70, he said.

"It will lead also to greater destabilization."

He said the twin towers of the World Trade Center consumed more energy than do some entire countries in Africa.

In addition, the fact that 90 percent of vehicles carry no more than one person is "a stupid thing," he said.

"Our planet will not put up with this," he said. "We're all in peril."

On Saturday, Chavez said he wanted to provide cheap heating oil for low-income Europeans.

Wow! Whatta moron!

[stepnw1f]

29. Great Catch! (nt)

[Phx_Dem]

31. Funny how you missed all this:

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has accused George W. Bush of committing genocide and said the U.S. president should be imprisoned by an international criminal court.

He described capitalism as "extreme individualism," which is using up the world's non-renewable energy reserves at an alarming pace.

He (Chavez) said he is sure that the Iranians are not working on a nuclear weapon, as U.S. officials have claimed.

"The Iranians, like us, want peace," he said.


He said the twin towers of the World Trade Center consumed more energy than do some entire countries in Africa.


I guess some of us are just better readers....

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

38. You have zero point.

Every one of your examples reaches the threshold of "reasonable."

Genocide. 100,000+ Iraqis dead.
Capitalism. Everyone for themselves.
Iranian nuke. Maybe. Maybe not.
Peace. Just an awful thought.
WTC. Power hog.

Reading is one thing. Comprehension is another.

[Phx_Dem]

40. what is reasonable

stating that capitalism represents "extreme individualism" is not at all reasonable, it's stupid.

Stating that Bush has committed genocide is also stupid.

Backing Iran's stmts without any supporting evidence is moronic.

Pointing out that the WTCs used a lot of electricity is also moronic, and one wonders what the point was to even mention it.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

43. i disagree on two points.

"stating that capitalism represents 'extreme individualism' is not at all reasonable, it's stupid."

actually, it pretty much is individualism. or social darwinism.

"Stating that Bush has committed genocide is also stupid."

see Iraq.

[Phx_Dem]

55. Pure capitalism is...

but no one practices a pure form of capitalism, so the point is moot. The fact is that the US practices regulated capitalism, combined with progressive social policies like afcd, etc. Chavez was using the straw man form of argument, surely you see that.

I know a lot of people consider what Bush did in Iraq genocide, I don't think the admin policy on Iraq fits the definition, that's all. I do think that the Bush admin is probably the worst admin ever in the US.

[lumpy]

64. Capitalism; at one time

capitalism was quite well regulated, compared to say 1956 much of that regulation, (started with the saving and loan/banking institutions) has gone down the tube. The far right arm of the Republican party has been trying for many years to do away with progressive social policies and they are still at it. Privatization of public agencies, postal service ,utilities, etc. is big on their list.
As far as genocide and the Iraq invasion/occupation, call it what you may, genocide has been the result.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

76. actually rugged individualism is

a term W would use for self-description, had he the mental capacity to string those syllables together. So he has shills in the media like Tweety, who clearly wants to fuck him, describe him like that.

Anyway I'm losing my point here. Ah yea, well I'm not going to really bicker about the use of the g word. The fact that its even a consideration, that we are arguing the point AT ALL, is a testament to how low we've sunk.

Sorry I don't really have the energy to debate the finer points. Have a good nite.

[Phx_Dem]

90. If people want to call it genocide

by all means call it like you see it. I just think we should be careful throwing around terms like that.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Peace Patriot]

84. "Regulated capitalism"???

The former U.S. maybe practiced "regluated capitalism." THAT U.S. is a thing of the past, Phx_Dem. Or hadn't you noticed?

[Phx_Dem]

87. We can't just give up

just because the bush people have undone so much. Hopefully history will record the bush administration as an anomaly, we can still get back on track.

[ProudDad]

105. Sorry, capitalism in this country

hasn't been adequately regulated since Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company made them "Persons"...

http://www.iiipublishing.com/afd/santaclara.html

[Dervill Crow]

98. New Orleans, also, IMNSHO.

If there were more white and/or well-heeled folks in the flooded areas of NO, would the federal response have been better?

[Cha]

47. Oh, bush is a Genocidal

Maniac all right!

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tsuki]

78. You mean like the supporting evidence that Brewster-Jennings

operatives might have been able to supply?

[WhiteTara]

45. so what are you saying isn't so?

that capitalism is run away narcissism? Or in Chavez' words :extreme individualism"? You dispute that? Or that the towers used more electricity than some African countries?

[Phx_Dem]

57. Capitalism needs to be regulated to work well

Chavez was using a straw man argument which works really well apparently.

[WhiteTara]

61. sounds like you are saying the same

thing Hugo is. You say it needs to be regulated and he says it is runaway. Note how very few regulations are being put on capitalism today...for example the oil company profits and CEO salaries.

[lumpy]

66. Capitalism in the US is not being well regulated

at this point in time. Compare the banking practices/laws installed during FDR's tenure that have been deregulated over time. Regulated banking practices are usually the backbone of an economy. Money flows unhampered, hand to hand, under the table, etc. Why do you think the present exposure of corruption is suddenly becoming so rampant. Couple that with tax breaks for large corporations touted by the Republicans in the name of economic progress. And you think capital regulation is in full flower?

[Phx_Dem]

88. I agree, but take a longer view

Obviously the republicans have done a lot of damage, they did during Reagan/Bush sr. terms as well. The damage is not necessarily permanent, but it's not going to be easy for the next administration.

It just strikes me as odd that of all the countries that Chavez could comment on, he consistently chooses the US, why is that? Just because of Bush?

So no I don't think "capital" regulation is where is should be.

[ProudDad]

106. He comments on the U.S. BECAUSE THEY TRIED TO KILL HIM

and destroy his country -- again.

Is that a good enough reason to go after bush???

[Judi Lynn]

116. Unbelievable! Thanks for pointing out some information which

appears to have escaped the posted altogether. Such a small detail, probably easy to overlook, er, probably NOT. Sheesh.

[arikara]

77. I read it all...

I just don't see your point.

[Vidar]

36. Nicely "executed".

[Phx_Dem]

42. Your the cheering section--nice work! nt

[pretzel4gore]

50. listen, President Chavez is defying convention; that's why his words seem

so remarkable. You dislike him. maybe you don't like him because he isn't white? surely President Chavez, in defying the conventions of modern world, must strike you as a heroic individual, rregardless of how wrong he might be tactics wise? Why be here if progressive ideas upset yall? Bush is a mass murdering criminal. period.

[WhiteTara]

51. the correct word usage is "you're"

your implies ownership. you're is a contraction of you are. Basic English grammer from 3rd grade.

[nick303]

52. Grammer huh?

Come on guys, it's the Internet, not a job résumé. See how silly it is to point minor flaws like that when you disagree with someone?

[WhiteTara]

60. Welcome to the fray nick303

Good grammer and spelling at least gives the appearance of intelligence and education. So when you have something really stupid to say, at least you don't look stupid along with it. JMHO of course

[nick303]

65. So I'll assume you're just pulling my leg..

with that spelling of "grammar", right?

[WhiteTara]

72. LOL

[stepnw1f]

183. It's Grammar BTW (nt)

[nick303]

200. As was pointed out in post #65

my point still being that attacking minor spelling/grammar issues is most often a distraction.

[Phx_Dem]

58. your right! nt

[WhiteTara]

73. my left

[bitchkitty]

81. LOL

[stepnw1f]

182. You Got Your Ass Handed to You

Your argument was flimsy and people have called you out on it. Swallow your pride or lose respect.

[Tom Joad]

9. It is the level of discourse I would expect from anti-chavez types.

To paraphrase for my own political use:

CHAVEZ RAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWKKKKKKKSSS!

[corporate_mike]

14. Venezuela's Chavez is shackling the press

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/op-ed/editorial2/200...

[stepnw1f]

17. Ahhh... you Again

thanks, but no thanks

[goforit]

49. Stepnwlf..........I love yah!! This conversation is Entertainment!

Keep egging those Marketers on!!!

Hats off to yah!!

[stepnw1f]

184. thanks truth(nt)

I do my best... sometimes more than I should. But man do split tongue posters piss me off. Any fool can tell where they are coming from. They are not here to dialogue, but to force a point of view... notice how they never acknowledge when people debunk their talking points, but instead continue down thread with the same talking points? It's almost as if they hope somebody on this board agrees with their bullshit. I'd say they were fishing in the wrong pond....

[manic expression]

25. That's impressive

how he can "shackle the press" while they unceasingly spew filth about him, oftentimes using racist sentiments. Funny how the Venezuelan press is vehemently RW and anti-Chavez, and funnier still how they refuse to even try to hide their huge bias. Do you have a shred of an idea of the reality in Venezuela? Do you even know how the coup happened?

[ThomCat]

119. I think he's a paid shill.

I can't imagine any other reason why he'd be so devoted to trashing Chavez at every opportunity with no evidence and no regard for facts.

[KaptBunnyPants]

30. Gee, it's almost like they attempted a coup against him or something

But of course, I'm sure that won't matter to you. I love when "liberals" try to say that Chavez is an evil dictator for some trifling matter while they completely ignore that the people being punished actually insurrected against the government. In any other country, definitely including ours, when you start a civil war and lose, the punishment is death. Only Chavez could be so gracious, so inhumanly forgiving and kind, as to not seek retribution. He is a beacon of light in this world, one of the few...

[Bacchus39]

83. ummm... Chavez instigated a coup too

and he was pardoned. I guess he is not the only one so "gracious and kind".

[BrotherBuzz]

93. Indeed, pardoned....

and only after the president whom he attempted to overthrow was impeached. Duh!

[KaptBunnyPants]

95. Thank you for presenting (less than) half of the story...

He was imprisoned for 2 years because of his coup attempt against president Perez in 1992. In 1993, Perez was ousted from office for gross corruption. The Perez administration never pardoned Chavez, which you would have known if you had bothered to do the most basic of fact checking. But I guess that's too much to ask from the anti-Chavez brigade.

So let's review. The American approved, freedom loving Perez administration had the people who led a coup against them imprisioned for the duration of thier administration. The evil, horrible dictator Hugo Chavez made the people who attempted a coup against him stop using profanity and slander against him on public airwaves. What a cruel, despicable monster. I'm glad I live in America, where the people are free to revolt against the government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_coup_attempt_of...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Chavez

[Judi Lynn]

97. Here are photos taken well after the state police were ordered to shoot

into the crowd in Caracas, in the massacre named "El Caracazo," by the president, Carlos Andres Perez, who was impeached, and also imprisoned for his gross corruption, against whom Chavaez led an attempted coup:

http://abn.info.ve/galeria/show.php?carpeta=El%20Caraca...

(Click on photos for slightly larger images.)

The government claimed 300 were killed, while the public estimates upward from 3,000, in some sources.

[Judi Lynn]

96. Great post, KaptBunnyPants. I didn't see it yesterday, by accident.

Welcome to D.U.! Glad to see your input.

[ProudDad]

107. So right-wing San Diego is where your allies live.

Those mavens of the Venezuelan press are lucky not to be in PRISON.

They helped lead and support the coup that the bushies supported and helped bankroll. They are still getting money from the bushies via the NED.

If they lived in the U.S. they'd fuckin' be in jail as "terrorists"!!!

[lumpy]

63. Not sure about Chavez being a moron,

but I'm damned sure Bush is.

[Bacchus39]

82. I agree...

I am sure Iran IS working on a nuclear weapon. then again, Chavez is friends with that lunatic so he knows more than me.

[nguoihue]

109. Iran working on a nuclear weapon

Yeah, it must be true. Fox News said so, repeating more bullshit and lies from the neo-con chicken hawks who want control of their oil.

[AzDar]

2. SO surreal...I am actually looking to comedians and the leaders of Russia

and Venezuela to tell the truth about World events....

[Robbien]

4. Yes, it is strange isn't it?

In six short years foreign sources became more realistic than US sources.

[hwmnbn]

3. My top 3 Venezuelan nationals........

1. Luis Aparicio

2. Ozzie Guillen

3. Hugo Chavez




Beisbol been bery bery good to me!

[eridani]

79. 4. Freddy Garcia n/t

[jukes]

11. K&R n/t

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Joad]

13. How much are some Dems paid to kiss the warmongers ass?

and, NO, i am not talking about any DU'ers, i am talking about Dems in Congress (the "Deciders") who seem to be going along with threats to attack Iran.
Kucinich is NOT one of them, and has favored a saner approach.

It is "a steppingstone to war," said Rep. Dennis Kucinich, during the debate over the so-called Iran Freedom Support Act, and if this vote is any measure of the degree of congressional opposition to the looming prospect of war with Tehran, then we have a lot to worry about.

Only 21 members of the House stood up against the overwhelming bipartisan wave of support for the bill, which would impose economic sanctions on the Iranians – and openly proclaims the goal of effecting "regime change." Rep. Ron Paul, a Texas Republican, said the bill reminds him of a 1998 congressional resolution – the Iraq Liberation Act – that paved the way for the Iraqi debacle.

[Solon]

18. How much are you paid to kiss the opposition's ass?

Mr. Bought and Paid for.

[happydreams]

56. I've asked him this already. Let's see if mikey will answer.

[rman]

19. How much is Bush payed to kiss the asses of the dictators

in Saudi Arabia, Burma, China...

[SlavesandBulldozers]

44. he does it for free.

well, not really, he gets money for it. The rest of America pays with its blood and treasure.


aww look at the warm embrace.



there ya go. you show those evil Saudis whose boss. youre the decider.

[Kailassa]

104. Btw, regarding that photo ...

In Arab culture, the underling kisses his superior on the cheek.
Equals kiss on the lips.

(Lately in Australian culture, the underling kisses his master on the cheeks too, but it's a different set of cheeks.)

[SlavesandBulldozers]

114. seriously? wow. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

117. Good to find out! Interesting, considering the photo. Whoooooo! n/t

[WhiteTara]

46. how much are you paid to smear

everyone and thing you don't like?

[Tom Joad]

15. Too bad he isn't running to replace "i promise no Impeachment" Pelosi!

He'd win in a landslide.

[rman]

20. Hey, CNN didn't call him "radical" leftist...

That's noteworthy.

[meganmonkey]

21. Thank you Hugo

For saying what the so-called American "Left" should be screaming on a daily basis. Even through the propaganda in an article like this you get the truth out.

Now if we can just convince the well-intentioned liberals in this country that imperialistic corporate tyranny is a bad thing, and that providing for the well-being of all your people is a good thing, maybe we can get ourselves a nice healthy social democracy here in the good old US of A.

SOLIDARITY!

[me b zola]

22. K&R

[Radio_Guy]

23. What is the protocol for bringing Bush up on charges?

Chavez is right. What Bush is doing is pure genocide against Muslims. How can we bring him up on charges in the Hague? We need to get this ball rolling now.

[Danieljay]

26. a spine or a set of testicles: NEITHER of which exists in our elected

'officials'.

Move along.

[Radio_Guy]

27. Can another country bring him up on charges?

What's to keep someone like Chavez, for example, from bringing evidence to the Hague of Bush's crime. Surely our Congress isn't the only one that can do this.

[meganmonkey]

28. Since Bush doesn't recognize the validity of the ICC

they have no power over him

[Radio_Guy]

32. I wish it were that way with me

"Officer, I don't recognize the validity of the Alabama State Troopers, so I don't have to pay my ticket."

Sounds good to me.

[meganmonkey]

33. LOL - I was thinking the same thing when I was typing that response

I'm sorry officer, I just don't think the War on Drugs is real. So I'm gonna keep on smoking this joint. You wanna hit? It's good stuff, sir!

[ProudDad]

108. shrub will have to stay in the U.S.

after he leaves office or he'll suffer the same fate as Pinochet (after the dollar falls!)...

On Edit:

Yes, another country can bring him up on charges if he wanders into their jurisdiction...

[bdamomma]

100. I wish the ICC would just banish those laws saying that

the US is immuned from Criminal Court, am I correct on that point.

[Nutmegger]

34. BEFORE YOU TRASH CHAVEZ, READ THIS:

Official DU Hugo Chavez Right-Wing Falsehood Debunking Thread

[ThomCat]

120. Thank you.

[vincent_vega_lives]

170. BBC Take on Chavez

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3517106.stm

Personally I think this is a little more balanced.

[Vidar]

35. A public figure has the courage to say what we all should know in our

hearts. We exist in a stealth dictatorship, which continues to follow the forms of democracy while systematically destroying all the inherent content thereof. Conyer, Feingold & a handful of others might join in this call were it not political suicide. I have continually lauded them and I fervently applaud Chavez' courage yet again. It's past time for another American revolution.

[Boo Boo]

37. "...compared to the biggest genocide person alive, in the

history of humanity..."

[Vidar]

41. Literal translations aren't always grammatical if that is your point.

[pretzel4gore]

53. no one in history has the kill power bush has

and he would gladly exterminate say, blacks or say, 1st nations or say, palestinians or say muslims, or say Irishmen(?) etc......if you don't believe this, then let HISTORY prove you're right. and if you say 'let history prove YOU'RE right' then no, we will not. bush should not have any say at all in history i'm sure you agree....

[vincent_vega_lives]

173. Not everyone is a member of the Chavez fan club

Like they seem to be on DU. Information is never a bad thing. People should look at all sides before coming to a conclusion. Before anyone tosses out accusations of "paid-shill", I don't charge for googling.

The OAS Inter-American Commission on Human Rights
http://www.cidh.oas.org/annualrep/2005eng/chap.4d.htm



http://infovenezuela.org/#

1. In December 1998 Hugo Chávez Frías won the presidential elections with 35% of total votes. 36.55% of the electorate chose to abstain while 56.20% voted for Chavez. In November of that same year the same electorate had elected a new bicameral Congress in which all the political groups of the time were represented.
2. Immediately, President Chávez Frías began a process aimed at transforming the Venezuelan State. On the basis of a decision issued in January 1999 by the Supreme Court of Justice Chávez promoted the convening of a consultative referendum a provision for which was included in the Basic Law on Voting and Political Participation but not in the 1961 constitution in force at the time. The Referendum would launch a process aimed at drafting a new Constitution.

3. In 1999, and with only 35% of total electoral votes, the government's party secured 96% of the delegates to the Constitutional Assembly.

4. Before the Constitutional Assembly began its task, Congress was forced to "enter into recess" and was thus de facto "dissolved". The National Constitutional Assembly took control of the Legislative Power.
5. Following the approval of the new Constitution, were called in July 2000 for a new National Assembly in which the government's party succeeded in securing a majority.

6. Chávez, in turn, won the new presidential elections with 32% of total votes and an abstention rate as high as 43%.

7. On November 11, 2000 , the National Assembly passed the second Enabling Law (Ley Habilitante) , based on Articles 203 and 236 of the 1999 Constitution. Since the Enabling Law granted the Executive Branch the authority to legislate, albeit in a transitory manner, this proceeded to change several basic laws. (The first Enabling Law had been approved by the former Congress on April 27, 1999, in accordance to Article 190/8 of the 1961 Constitution).

8. The above developments sparked, the December 2001 lock out, the labor strike and the events of April 2002 .

9. As a result of the April 2002 events, the government lost the support of some of the parties in its coalition as well as its qualified majority (two thirds) in the National Assembly.
10. One of the tactics used by the parliamentary faction controlled by the Administration has been to restrict or impede Assembly debates and to expedite the approval of Basic Laws through modifications of the Assembly's Internal Rules of Procedure and Debates (7 in only two years), approved by simple majority.

11. The opposition has denounced the multiple modifications to the National Assembly's Rules of Procedure as unconstitutional. In this regard, it has presented several complaints before the TSJ (Supreme Court of Justice), which is yet to rule on the matter.

12. Following the appointment in January 2005 of the National Assembly's new leadership, controlled by the pro-government factions and presided by Nicolás Maduro, the situation in the Assembly became very tense At one point, the National Guard was asked to intervene to oust Congressman Nicolás Sosa (MAS) from the premises in the midst of a dispute regarding the modification of the Central Bank Law. The modification of the Central Bank Law was approved even though copies of it were not distributed on the floor of the Assembly and it was not debated as regulations required. The opposition strongly protested this maneuver.

13. Several statements by pro-government members of the Assembly should also be noted. For example, Congresswoman Iris Valera has clearly indicated: "We will not stop whatever reforms we choose to introduce to the laws of this country; this is why we have the majority". (El Nacional, Wednesday, June 22, 2005 ).

Violencia en Venezuela 1 (27/02/04)
"NO PASA NADA"

http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?showSlide=... ]Album1

http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?Uc=8gm0ob2... ]Album2

http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?Uc=8gm0ob2... ]Album3

http://www.proveo.org/fraud_report.pdf

http://www.proveo.org/white_paper_democracy.pdf

Links for Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, well known Right wing orgs.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-ven/index

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr530052004

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/ven-summary-eng

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=venezu

[ronnie624]

177. So, what exactly is your point?

I can find no new or explosive information contained within the sources you have provided. I have to admit I don't have time to thoroughly research the information, but I did skim through all of the web pages you linked to. The photos were of particular interest although I cannot speak Spanish so the captions were useless to me. Links to Amnesty International have been posted here dozens of times and as anyone with any real interest in the events in Latin America can tell you, these reports on Venezuela do not in any way implicate the Chavez government or its policies for human rights violations. Most of the criticisms are of police and security forces which Chavez obviously does not control directly. Holding him personally responsible for the actions of all of the police in Venezuela would be like blaming the president of the U.S. for the massive corruption of the LAPD in the late 90s. Remember the spree of killings and planting of guns, drugs and other evidence that was briefly reported by the corporate media and then promptly hurled down the memory hole never to be spoken of again? (Hmm, I wonder if Amnesty International has issued a report on these particular incidents.) Is there some information I am perhaps overlooking that details policies or activities of the Chavez government that you find particularly offensive?

When you plop down a shit load of links like so many turds accompanied by a short cryptic statement that says virtually nothing, it tends to reek of severe intellectual dishonesty

[wordpix2]

39. I think what Chavez said is reasonable & * does deserve to be brought

before a criminal court.

[Jack Rabbit]

48. ¡Viva Chávez!

[happydreams]

59. Chavez is saying about Bush what democrats in the US should be saying.

[Walt Disney]

62. What kind of statesman would make public statement like that?

Answer: Either a moron or an amateur.

Either way, this fat little punk poses a danger to Central and South American security.

[lumpy]

71. Maybe that 'fat little punk'

realizes that the 'little punk' in the WH is a danger to Central and South America.

[Walt Disney]

101. The punk in the White House may pose a danger to Middle Eastern security

but I doubt he has the time to worry about the fat little "Fidel wanna-be" from Caracas.

Now that your boy is contemplating selling F-16's it should be clear to anyone with half a brain that this guy is one deranged hombre.

[Tripmann]

80. Thought I smelled the creep of freep

Attacking the man, not the issue is rethug 101. Chavez is a hero. Because his comments are unorthodox for a statesman SO WHAT. If other world leaders were saying what they think instead of facilitating the bush cartels empire building, the planet wouldn't be in the mess its in.

[Walt Disney]

102. I thought I smelled a lover of fascism.

Real Democrats do not support dictators. If he is your hero, you're either naive to the extreme or a supporter of despotic, authoritarian rule.

[ThomCat]

121. What makes Chavez a dictator?

Getting elected repeatedly? Bringing people up out of poverty? Making sure that his country benefits from all the oil being pumped out of their own land?

I fail to see where he's been a dictator?

Enjoy your short stay here at DU.

[Walt Disney]

122. And you will never see; for you have been brainwashed by

the propaganda of a fascist.

[ThomCat]

123. I haven't seen any propoganda from him.

I haven't seen any venezuellan media at all. But that's a nice try.

Tried analyzing your own propaganda recently? Or do you get paid not to?

[Walt Disney]

127. Folks like you never knew what hit 'em.

[ronnie624]

145. Maybe one day you will post a message

that actually makes some sense. Clearly you haven't the slightest understanding of the definition of the term "fascism".

There are many conflicting opinions with regard to fascism, but one thing is for certain: there is nothing "liberal" or "leftist" about it. In fact, one can quite reasonably believe that liberalism or progressivism are polar opposites to fascism, so calling Hugo Chavez a fascist is just profoundly asinine.

Perhaps you should read and inform yourself on a given topic before offering an "opinion". Thusly can you avoid the appearance of complete foolishness.

~~~~~~~

"Fascism, which was not afraid to call itself reactionary... does not hesitate to call itself illiberal and anti-liberal."
_Benito Mussolini
<http://www.remember.org/hist.root.what.html >

Mussolini defined fascism as being a right-wing ideology in opposition to socialism, liberalism, democracy and individualism. He said in The Political and Social Doctrine of Fascism:

"Granted that the 19th century was the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy, this does not mean that the 20th century must also be the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy. Political doctrines pass; nations remain. We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the 'right', a Fascist century. If the 19th century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the 'collective' century, and therefore the century of the State."
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism >

"Fascism is on the march today in America. Millionaires are marching to the tune. It will come in this country unless a strong defense is set up by all liberal and progressive forces... A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government, and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. Aboard ship a prominent executive of one of America's largest financial corporations told me point blank that if the progressive trend of the Roosevelt administration continued, he would be ready to take definite action to bring fascism to America."
former U.S. ambassador to Germany William Dodd in 1938\
<http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Fascism.html >

[Walt Disney]

154. My philosophical meter does not have "left/right" indicators;

rather, it depicts good vs. bad and/or freedom vs. tyranny. Moreover, Mussolini, the original fascist, was a socialist and most folks who use left/right descriptions, place socialism on the left.

But you are right about one thing--there is nothing liberal about fascism. Likewise, there is nothing liberal about Hugo Chavez.

Like Mussolini, Chavez has created his fascist state though the use of propaganda, control of the media and the torture and imprisonment of his adversaries. He has expanded his personal power at the expense of the legislature, stacked the courts and recently indicated that he would seek to rule Venezuela for 25 years. And like Mussolini and Hitler, he has a penchant for military attire and Gestapo style salutes.

So, my friend, you can label it whatever helps you rationalize the endorsement of a tyrant.

As for me, I will call it what it is, and it is fascism.

[ronnie624]

155. Your "philosophical meter"

is exactly the sort of good vs evil nonsense that typifies the jumbled, confused "thinking" of all right-wingers.

Also true to your creed is the fact that you have provided no links to support any of your claims. But don't waste your time. The baseless accusations you have made have been dealt with repeatedly and proved over and over again to be nothing more than lies. Your purpose here is obviously not to learn or impart information, but to spread confusion and misinformation.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Disney]

157. My philosophical meter works just fine, my friend and I speak the truth.

However, it is interesting to note that you consider the use of more descriptive terms to be "confusing." It works better for you if the terminology is less descriptive and more easily clouded, eh?

As for me, I prefer to be more descriptive and Chavez’s administration can best be described as some sort of populist lunacy that is a bizarre combination of Marxism, nationalism and Venezuelan jingoism.

BTW, that’s Venezuelan for FASCISM.

[1932]

165. You speak a lot of opinion. I haven't seen any facts to support those ops.

So it's a stretch to say that you speak the truth.

[Walt Disney]

174. It's not opinion, my friend. It's a fact that Chavez is a fascist.

And like other fascists before him, he is a small-minded propagandist. For example, this past winter, he had this wonderful plan to distribute heating oil at reduced cost to low-income families in the US. (You remember that, don't you?)

Meanwhile, back at the commune, Venezuela's poor are far worse of than the poor in America. In fact, (I know you like that word) 54% of all Venezuelans are living in poverty and 25% are living in extreme poverty. Nevertheless, in a petty attempt to embarrass the US, he chose to send millions of $$$ abroad, that his countrymen desperately needed at home.

So cheer him on, my friend. But remember, he is off at you.

[1932]

175. Apparently, that's working since poverty is dropping in Venezuela.

Google is your friend.

As for the wisdom of reducing polarization of wealth and the political instability that causes (and the way it drives nations to fascism), it's a smart plan for Venezuela to do what it can to make the US less chaotic.

The biggest threat to developing countries is from intervention by the US. If the US is stable, and not easy to exploit by right wingers, Venezuela is much better off.

However, Mr Bernays, I suspect you know this already.

[Walt Disney]

198. Your attempt at propaganda is as absurd as the guy on TV

telling us that US troops were not in Baghdad. What did they call him? Baghdad Bob, or something like that.

Anyway, the states that Chavez supposedly was "helping" were blue states, my friend. You know, those states where people know how to take care of those in need. Thus, my previous statement that Comrade Chavez was selling his country's assets at cut-rate prices while his country languished in poverty, stands.

Furthermore, Venezuela's essential infrastructure continues to disintegrate. A trip to the airport from Caracas that once took 30 minutes, now takes over 2 hours. This happened because Chavez's incompetent administration failed to maintain a bridge on the main highway to the airport.

At least Mussolini made the trains run on time.

Rather than being a stabilizing force, Chavez's influence is one of destabilization and chaos. Venezuela's murder rate has tripled under his inept rule! In fact (your favorite word), Venezuela has the highest rate gun related killings on the planet!

The only thing more pathetic than allowing yourself to be used as a tool of a brutal fascist is not realizing that you are being used.

Like I said before, Chavez is surely laughing his off at you. And now I am too.

[1932]

199. Didn't read all your post. Just looked for links, Didn't see any. Can't

waste my time reading uninformed opinion.

I will continue to scan all your replies to my posts for links. If I see any, I'll read your entire post. If I don't, then I can't waste time replyinf to Edward Bernays.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nutmegger]

67. U.K.: Chavez warns against war on Iran

LONDON -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, the flamboyant foe of the U.S. administration, Monday warned that military action against Iran would send oil prices rocketing and destabilize the entire world.

Speaking during a two-day visit to London, the socialist leader denounced U.S. President George W. Bush as an "assassin" who should be imprisoned for his "genocidal" policies in Iraq, and who was trying to provoke a "war of civilizations" between the West and the Muslim world.

Rather embarrassingly for British Prime Minister Tony Blair, one of Bush's closest allies, Chavez was in London at the invitation of outspoken London Mayor Ken Livingstone, known as "Red Ken" for his socialist leanings.

Not surprisingly given his one-time description of Blair as "the main ally of Hitler" because of his close relationship with the U.S. president, Chavez was snubbed by the government during his visit, but received a hero's welcome from trade unionists, members of Parliament -- including left-wing members of the ruling Labor Party -- and a host of celebrities and political activists.

Full Article: http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20060515-...

[cliss]

68. Good. We need to have a little bit of

diverging viewpoints, especially since western media covers so much ground. You simply cannot have a single voice (namely Washington) when you have so many people.

Right or wrong, let him speak.

[earth mom]

69. Glad that Chavez said it. It needs to be said over and over

again until the American public and the world really hear it.

[genieroze]

70. L@@K "Oil for no one if Iran attacked"

Rome, May 12 - Visiting Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said here on Thursday in case of a military attack against Iran, no country in the world would have access to crude oil.

Chavez made the remark at a press conference, adding, "as Iran's President Ahmadinejad has reiterated, if Tehran would come under attack, oil would get scarce for everyone."

He also said that the American President George W. Bush should be put to trial at the International Court of Justice for having launched genocide in Iraq.

The Venezuelan president added, "for all the horror it has created around the globe in the course of the past century, the United States' war machine should be dismantled, since under the current conditions it is a threat against the entire mankind, particularly against our children."

http://www.iribnews.ir/Full_en.asp?news_id=213088&n=32

[spacelady]

74. Just watch, once we militarize our borders agaist Mexico, Chavez

of Venezuela will swoop in & offer Mexican & Central American workers a better deal than the US. They will come together as a common front in an effort to supercede the US in wages & affordable living. Castro & Cuba will jump in & we will really have a goodly mess. The US is totally not getting it with Chimpy & PNAC in charge. What do "we" have to offer Vincente Fox?

[Xenotime]

75. Chavez makes some good points..

He should post here at DU.

[Peace Patriot]

86. Here's a good info site on Chavez, Venezuela and the amazing,

peaceful, democratic, leftist revolution that has swept South America:

www.venezuelanalysis.com

-----

"The time of the people has come." --Evo Morales (1st indigenous President of Bolivia)

----

Anybody wondering why Bush needs us to hate brown people, why/how "immigration" suddenly became "the issue," and what the delusional narrative will be (and always is) for the Bushites' "miraculous" comeback in November (engineered by Diebold/ES&S), needs to bone up on the leftist revolution in Latin America. Those brown people have gotten their act together in ways that we have not (with TRANSPARENT elections, for instance). They have representative government. We do not. They have honest elections. We do not. They have strong workers' rights movements. We do not. They are using resources to help the poor. We are not. They have peace-minded leadership. We do not. We are letting Diebold/ES&S "select" war mongering Bushites and war machine Democrats as our only options. The Latin Americans have REAL leftists running for office, and winning presidential and other elections throughout the continent--while we are wondering where our country has gone. That is why, a) Bushites want to bar more Latin browns from the U.S. and purge and frighten those who are here, and b) are scapegoating this group in their delusional "victory" narrative.

If we want this fascist crap to stop, we will join with others to...

Throw Diebold, ES&S and all election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor' NOW!

Given a choice, Americans will vote for peace, for workers' rights, for fairness, for decent, lawful government and for environmental protection. In fact, they HAVE voted for these things twice in the last five and a half years, and have had their votes overruled or 'disappeared' into the ether of Bushite-controlled electronic voting machines.

Destroying Mexico's and other third world economies--which is what our global corporate predators have been doing over the last decade--forcing the poor and the brown to immigrate to find work, and then punishing them and scapegoating them for immigrating, is the height of indecency. Our prosperity is based on stealing from the poor elsewhere, and it is now not "our" prosperity any more. It is corporate prosperity and the prosperity of the super-rich, at OUR expense. So, devils that they are, they are now trying to pit impoverished US workers against impoverished immigrant workers, as an election ploy--a sick narrative in support of their rigged voting machines.

All I can say is: RESIST! Don't buy into it the way the Democratic leadership seems to be doing. We have a sick, sick country, and the only remedy is TRANSPARENT ELECTIONS.

[corporate_mike]

89. VenezuelAnalysis.com is part of Chavez' propaganda machine

It's like reading how great Exxon is on their own website

[DrunkenMaster]

94. why don't YOU cite a source

other than your own arrogance and ignorance?

[happydreams]

126. He doesn't have to provide a source. Corporate mikey

has a faith based belief and that's all he needs.

[jkg4peace]

131. You couldn't be more ignorant...

Gregory Wilpert is a sociologist who was in Venezuela on a Fulbright doing research when the 2002 US-backed coup took place. He was on the bridge that day, and can speak first hand as to the lies that the US corporate media was helping to spread. He was inspired, as an academic - not an activist, to create Venezuelanalysis.com to provide a source of empirical, factual information since just about everything else you read is part of a deliberate disinformation campaign. I heard him speak when I was in Caracas earlier this year. He may still live there, but I am not positive about that. Still he speaks from the voice of one who has lived under Chavez, and as a sociologist and observer of the various elements of Venezuelan society. He does not have a political agenda and he certainly is not taken in by anyone's propaganda. I think his website is one of the most reliable sources of information on what is happening in Venezuela that you can find.

In fact, I found him to be a little harsh on Chavez (but I am a HUGE Chavez fan and take great pleasure in his trashing Bush!). The one thing that I differ with Wilpert on is that while Chavez is extremely important to the Bolivarian revolution, I do not believe it begins and ends with him as Wilpert does. He is probably correct that if the opposition succeeded in overthrowing him, it would be difficult to carry it forward, but not because the opposition would undo it. I think Venezuela would simply explode if the opposition tried to take over again. The people would never stand for it. They love their constitution and will never give it up. Like Chavez said, if you want to fix the problem of poverty, you need to give POWER to the poor. And that is just what he has done. It is like nothing I have ever seen. They do not get hand outs, they get micro-credits. They run all the social programs themselves in their communities and are totally invested in them. They work their butts off! I have never seen such empowerment. They are now major participants in the political process, and that is something they cherish. This is not about handouts for votes! It truly is a transformation of society and government on every level.

Sorry for the rant....I get so excited just thinking about it!

[Judi Lynn]

138. So glad you've posted your observations at D.U.

Simply incomparable, seeing first hand experience from someone who actually knows something about the transformation going on in Venezuela.

Welcome to D.U., jkg4peace!

[ronnie624]

146. You spout such nonsense.

It's all propaganda corporate mic-er-mike. One must simply read as much as possible and make his/her own determinations about who is credible and who is not. I have been watching the situation in Venezuela for years and I know with certainty that VenezuelAnalysis.com is infinitely superior to any of the garbage you have ever linked to.

[Zorra]

92. Bu*h committed genocide, and should be tried and sent to prison.

He's a war criminal.

How can any sane person dispute this fact?

Chavez is simply stating the obvious.

[bdamomma]

99. I wish Chavez, Fox, Putin and the Chinese President

would give a call to the ICC regarding the big bully on the block.

[ButterflyBlood]

103. Chavez is a bit out of line here

I agree with him Bush should be imprisoned, but to call Bush the biggest genocidal person alive in the entire history of humanity, is more than a bit too much. Bush isn't even in the top 100. This guy is the worst president ever, no question, but he certainly can't even hold a candle to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc.

[Kailassa]

110. You can't blame that on lack of trying though.

If he was the dictator he'd love to be, it would all be so much easier.

As it is, he just might initiate the complete destruction of humanity. Would he qualify in your eyes then?

[ButterflyBlood]

111. You could say the same thing about any dictator

Until they do such a thing, making such a claim is just stupid.

I wish people would realize just how poorly the "Bush is worse than Hitler!" nonsense I see on this forum reflects on the board.

[arikara]

113. When do they cross the line?

250,000 innocent Iraqi civilians is not inconsequential. How many Afghani civilians? How many - both civilians and soldiers - are going to die from horrible cancers and diseases from the depleted uranium that is spread all over the place in those unfortunate countries?

In your own country, how many low income people and seniors are dying from neglect and lack of medical care because he deliberately gutted the system? How many thousands perished in New Orleans that weren't even counted? He is successfully performing a class genocide within your own country. He has no need to round the "useless eaters" into camps when he can get rid of them through dismantling your social safety net and ignoring disasters.

Their mastery of the propaganda catapult surpasses the Nazi's. They have successfully robbed you of your right to vote. They are changing the laws daily to make it easier to do whatever they want, whenever they want. Looking at the bigger picture, although he comes across as an idiot he still behaves like an out of control early Adolph. His entire swarm of the pnacers are no different than sneaky Nazi criminals.

[Judi Lynn]

118. Apparently he's got a blank check until his victem tote passes

however many millions run up by the idiots in Germany in the Second World War. THEN it's fine to make comparisons. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

[DrunkenMaster]

124. you know

If people had bothered to compare Hitler to previous dictatorial killing machines like Nero BEFORE the Holocaust, he might never have managed to hold power for so damn long. Just a thought.

[ButterflyBlood]

134. The fact is, he still does not come close to Hitler

Yes, he is the worse and most disasterous president in history for the reasons you mentioned, but none of that even comes close to Hitler or the most genocidal person in the history of the world. He doesn't even come close to being the worst or most genocidal person in the world today, compared to folks such as the thugs running Sudan or North Korea.

There's countless to bash Bush over without losing our credibility by using ridiculous hyperbole. Bush is NOT worse than Hitler, and I highly doubt he ever will be. Cutting social programs is not the same as Auschwitz.

[Amonester]

151. The big problem is, if Bu$h "simply" Decides to make the ...

"Rapture" a reality (but there's a big possibility that no Divinity will show up...or rather, show "down"), it will be too late to compare him to any other genocidal maniacs. All the radioactive "cannibal" survivors (if any) will be able to breathe will be poisonous snow flakes ("nukular" winter)...

Everyday, it looks more and more like it's were that idiot war criminal king George is leading us all. So maybe it's a lot better to make that comparison 'before' the upcomming deliberately-provoked-Bu$hler "Rapture" than 'after' so maybe someone will STOP (or BUST) **?

[Higans]

139. Well said.

[jkg4peace]

143. I second that! n/t

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

167. All those people you mentioned are dead. That's why he specified alive.nt

[Xenotime]

112. Chavez, we can only dream.

[RCinBrooklyn]

115. It makes sense to me - lock him up in Abu Ghraib.

[jerry611]

125. Chavez displays his ignorance

Bush is not the "biggest genocide person alive, in the history of humanity..."

Either Chavez is just screaming BS or he hasn't read a page of world history. Bush is probably the worst president in American history. He may be the biggest genocidal person in American history (that we know of)... but Bush is not the biggest genocidal person in human history.

Its nice to call Bush names, but lets be a little realistic here. The world has seen worse...MUCH worse.

[LoZoccolo]

128. No shit.

Yet we're supposed to gush and nod when this guy spouts verifiable falsehoods, so that we may prove our loyalty to a bunch of people on an Internet message board we don't even know.

I've been saying for months this guy is an (ostensibly) left-wing version of Bush*.

[jerry611]

129. I wonder what will happen when Dems take control of government

I wonder what will happen when Dems take control of government and Hugo Chavez continues his anti-Americanism. Suddenly everyone on this message board is going to hate Hugo.

The only reason people on this forum support Hugo Chavez is because he is one of the few world leaders standing up to George W. Bush and American foreign policy. Everything else Hugo does in his country (ie: stacking the Supreme Court) is ignored and brushed aside.

[jkg4peace]

132. What a stupid thing to say

One of the big complaints was that the courts were so backed up that the statute of limitations would run out before cases would get to court. They needed new justices -- and they needed ones who were not in the pocket of the opposition and who would uphold the new constitution. I think someone else here already spoke about the incredibly corrupt court that existed when he took office.

Chavez is not "anti-American". He is against American capitalist colonialism backed by the US military. And yes, he will be against this system that enslaves the majority of the world's population no matter who is in office. But he is not "anti-American". In fact, he dreams of the day that Americans will WAKE UP and see what their government is doing in their name and joins much of the rest of the world in promoting a world system based on humanistic values and not pure greed and consumption. If he hates America so much, why did he give cheap oil to our poorest communities? Not a single, greedy American oil company would chip in -- despite reporting gargantuan, record-breaking profits. This is what he is opposed to. So am I. Does that make me anti-American?

[jerry611]

136. That sounds a bit like Leninism

In Lenin's book, "What is to be Done," he said many of the same things that Hugo Chavez has been saying. Things such as proletariat revolutions throughout the world to reject the exploitation of the 3rd world by the capitalist superpowers.

If you support communism, that is fine, that's your belief you are welcome to have. But very few Americans agree with you. I would venture to guess less than 10% of Americans support communist ideas. Communism is considered to be a far-left fringe of the American electorate. Look how difficult it is to get anything socialist passed in America. We can't even get a national healthcare program passed. America is a capitalist country. And I don't see that changing no matter who is elected in 2008. Therefore this capitalist colonialism backed by the military that you speak of will only continue...and that's why Chavez will continue to bash America even with Democrats in power.

So my question is...when this happends, and Hugo thumbs his nose at Hillary or Kerry or Gore or whoever is prez in 2008... Will you still support Chavez over that president you voted for?

<edited for typo>

[jkg4peace]

141. we are not talking about communism here

Communism = centralized state ownership of capital and land. How is giving micro-credits and urban and rural land titles to individuals and coops (instead of welfare) communism? How is educating the poor and giving them tools to create a better life for themselves incompatible with free enterprise? And the Venezuelan government is highly de-centralized and really nothing like communism. Whatever, I don't really care if simple minded people call me a communist, it's just that it lacks imagination. I am not for any "ism", just basic human decency and some reasonable restraints on monopolistic power that leads to oppression. We used to have laws like this until our so-called elected representatives sold out to corporate interests (proof: our tax code). If not believing in corporate profits at any cost makes me a communist in your eyes, so be it. The idea that our system of a corporate run society is the 'only' way is the triumph of a major propaganda campaign in this country.

As a society, we need to think about what kind of world we want to live in, and set limits on certain destructive behavior so that life can continue on this planet. The Bolivarian revolution in Venezuela is an entirely new model and won't fit in any of your simplistic definitions of communism/socialism/capitalism. There is no natural law that says greedy capitalists have the right to whatever they want in this world. It is facilitated by our government (using our treasury)backed with the killing power of the military. You are right, we can't even pass national health care in this country, precisely because we do not have participatory democracy. The majority of Americans support it, but not the health care lobby. The majority of Americans support a livable wage, increased educational spending and access to higher education, and the notion that corporations should clean up their messes and EPA standards that protect our air and water. But we don't really have a democracy here, do we? More like an auction to the highest bidder...and rigged elections just in case they can't spend their way in.

Yes, I will support Chavez over any American President that uses our wealth and power to impose violence, poverty and oppression on innocent people. Chavez is not ignorant of history like some say here. He is incredibly educated in history and can recount it off the top of his head in great detail like no one I have ever heard. He has a llano cultural exuberance that uses impassioned exaggeration to emphasize a point. Only Americans would pick on this one little cultural expression and use it as "evidence" that the guy is "crazy". Latin Americans get him (even if they don't agree with him). To really understand what is going on or being said, you have to consider the cultural and historical context of the events and people you are observing. If you only look at things from a contemporary American vantage point, you will have nothing but a pathetic, misinformed, myopic view of the world.

I think the progressive community understands that these issues go way beyond Democrat or Republican and don't expect much to change. That Ruppert Murdoch is fund raising for Hilary Clinton is about as much proof as you need that we live under a one party system in this country (one monster, two heads)and who controls it.

[jerry611]

144. And you think Chavez will last much longer?

Elections don't matter. Like you said, it is a one-party America. Neither party likes Hugo. The CIA doesn't like him. The State department doesn't like him. The Pentagon doesn't like him. Hugo has no friends in the American government. So I think it is safe to say that his days are numbered.

And selling F-16s to Iran may be the first nail in his coffin. We and the UN Security Council are currently in a diplomatic standoff with Iran. And if Chavez buts in the middle of this standoff and starts giving weapons to Iran, he's putting himself directly in the line of fire.

[ProudDad]

150. He has millions of friends

among the American PEOPLE.

At some point, the people will see who their natural, real enemy is -- the upper class that's ruining them!

[ProudDad]

149. ABSOLUTELY!

Jerry611 said, "So my question is...when this happends, and Hugo thumbs his nose at Hillary or Kerry or Gore or whoever is prez in 2008... Will you still support Chavez over that president you voted for?"

ABSOLUTELY!!!

Capitalism is a dead end cult....

[LoZoccolo]

133. I think some people would turn against him...

...but then a big contingent of the Hugo apologists are locked into this game of trying to prove how liberal they are, which I think would take them much further left than the Democratic Party, and they'd follow Hugo there too.

[ButterflyBlood]

137. There have been some things that have started to worry me about him

Largely that his first attempt to take power was a failed coup against a democratically elected government that killed almost 100 people, most of them civilians.

And then there's his current cozying up to Iran's lunatic Holocaust denier President, just because that guy also happens to hate Bush. Supporting one idiot thug over another is not the progressive route.

[jerry611]

140. It doesn't end at only Iran

This guy goes around the world with a vendetta against the United States. Everywhere he goes he not only bashes America, but he is spreading BS. Like calling Bush the biggest genocidal leader in human history. Does Chavez also not believe the holocaust took place? Or did he forget that Adolf Hitler slaughtered 6 million people? What about Mao? Some historians say he is responsible for the deaths of 100 million people. What about Stalin? Some say he slaughtered up to 30 million.

Chavez is making friends with a lot of people that do not like us. And this is not just bad for Bush or American corporations, it is bad for the average American as well. Every single impact on our economy will be felt by everyone from the very rich to the very poor. When corporations lose profits, they cut jobs, they downsize. Where does this leave the average American worker?

Now I don't particularly like American foreign policy. But we can't change our policies overnight. We have been a capitalist nation since the very beginning. It will take decades to change a foreign policy we have been using since the 1950s. We pull our military out of all these other countries and our economy will collapse and we will leave power vaccums all over the world. This would be incredibly dangerous. And it could radically change politics of the entire globe.

You also need to consider how our economy keeps many other economies afloat. If tomorrow we decide we don't want to buy oil in the mid-east anymore, and we pull our troops out of there. Guess what, many of those mid-east economies will crumble. They will literally begin to starve because they can't eat oil.

Like I said, it is going to take DECADES before we can change anything.

[jkg4peace]

142. it is not a crime to not like America

In fact, if you believe in justice and are not a racist, it is pretty damn hard to like America if you consider the actions of our government -- especially in Latin America.

http://www.chavezthefilm.com/html/backgrd/usa.htm

Drag your mouse over the years listed on the right side to see how "wonderful" we are. Think again about who might have committed the greatest genocide. Maybe not Bush by himself, but certainly the policies and institutions he advances and represents have, over the last century, committed tremendous crimes against humanity.

[ProudDad]

147. This globe NEEDS a radical change in its politics!

This is a GOOD thing.

Viva Chavez...

[Judi Lynn]

152. After reading your comments on the coup attempted by Chavez

I thought of asking you for a good link for a look at the information you used to arrive at your considered understanding of Venezuelan history. On second thought, I decided to save some time, and look for it myself. This is the first link I saw instantly, and it seems to contain much of what I've heard already. I think it may throw a little light on the subject:

Origins of the Coup

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 1992 Coup Attempt in Venezuela has its origins based in the system of 'partyarchy' and the government's subjective control of the military. From 1959, Venezuelan politics had been dominated by two major political parties, the Democratic Action party (AD) and COPIE. During the pre-Bolivarian era, these two parties had formed themselves into a loose coalition which became known as a 'partyarchy', rule by parties.
This type of government soon led to problems with corruption, particularly in the wake of an oil boom. Oil revenues had been up 54% during the Perez government of 1975 to 1979. Money was diverted from the government into the hands of officials. The courts who had aligned themselves along party lines were reluctant to convict those accused of corruption. Corruption and partyarchy were later blamed for many problems including an economic crisis in the 1980s. The coup was also partially caused by the way the Venezuelan government had chosen to run the military. Under an objective military system, the military and civilians are separated. A subjective system relies on the military working together with the civilian population. Middle ranking military officers were sent out in the field to work with civilians. The main goal was to democratize the military. The exact opposite would happen. When military officers, including Hugo Chavez, saw the conditions in which Venezuela's poor lived, they became disenchanted with the country's system of government. Corruption was blamed for the problem This feeling was being felt by the nation's citizens as well. By 1990, the government had ceased attempts to satisfy them. People began searching for alternatives to the corruption of Venezuelan democracy. Riots erupted in 1989 to protest government corruption.


The MBR-200

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The MBR-200 (Movimiento Bolivariano Revolucionaro 200) was founded by lieutenant colonels Hugo Chavez Frias and Francisco Arias Cardenas. They used the Venezuelan revolutionary hero Simon Bolivar as their group's symbol. Their main dispute was the corruption of Carlos Andres Perez as well as Venezuela's ongoing economic difficulties and social turmoil. In the view of these two men, the entire political system had to be changed in order for social change to occur.


The coup unfolds
After an extended period of popular dissatisfaction and economic decline <1> under the neoliberal administration of Carlos Andrés Pérez, Chávez made extensive preparations for a military-civilian coup d'état <2> Initially planned for December, Chávez delayed the MBR-200 coup until the early twilight hours of February 4, 1992. On that date, five army units under Chávez's command barreled into urban Caracas with the mission of assaulting and overwhelming key military and communications installations throughout the city, including the Miraflores presidential palace, the defense ministry, La Carlota military airport, and the Historical Museum. Chávez's ultimate goal was to intercept and take custody of Pérez before he returned to Miraflores from an overseas trip.

Chávez held the loyalty of some 10% of Venezuela's military forces;<3> still, numerous betrayals, defections, errors, and other unforeseen circumstances soon left Chávez and a small group of other rebels completely cut off in the Historical Museum, without any means of conveying orders to their network of spies and collaborators spread throughout Venezuela.<4> Worse, Chávez's allies were unable to broadcast their prerecorded tapes on the national airwaves in which Chávez planned to issue a general call for a mass civilian uprising against Pérez. As the coup unfolded, Pérez eluded capture, and fourteen soldiers were killed, and 50 soldiers and some 80 civilians injured, in the ensuing violence.<5> Nevertheless, rebel forces in other parts of Venezuela made swift advances and were ultimately able to take control of such large cities as Valencia, Maracaibo, and Maracay with the help of spontaneous civilian aid. Chávez's forces, however, had failed to take Caracas.<6>

Chávez, alarmed, soon gave himself up to the government. He was then allowed to appear on national television to call for all remaining rebel detachments in Venezuela to cease hostilities. When he did so, Chávez famously quipped on national television that he had only failed "por ahora"—"for the moment".<7>
(snip/...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Venezuelan_coup_attem...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here's a quick look at the absurd way the President of Venezuela at the time was trying to run the country:

On February 27, 1989, Perez increased the price of gasoline and the cost of public transportation. Following an IMF model to garner foreign investment, his austerity policies hit the poorest people hardest. But Perez apparently did not expect Venezuelans to respond to "economic shock" programs with spontaneous protests, which erupted throughout the country. In some areas, rioters torched shops and set up roadblocks.

When the police went on strike, the government lost control. Perez called for a state of emergency. The soldiers fired into crowds. By March 4, the government claimed that 257 lay dead. Some non-governmental sources estimated the death toll at over 2,000. Thousands were wounded.

Perez, who called himself a socialist, first imposed draconian measures on the poor and then had them shot when they objected. The Caracazo as the event became known, not only destroyed Venezuela's aura of stability but put an end to the political system that had replaced the ousted military dictator Perez Jimenez in 1958.

From then on until the Chavez victory, successive Christian Comite de Organizacion Politica Electoral Independiente (COPEI) and Social Democratic Accion Democratica (AD) governments had used the nation's immense oil wealth to distribute drops - or crumbs - just enough to maintain stability.

It took the IMF and World Bank - with strong backing from the Reagan government - and its neo-liberal offensive in the 1980s, to push Venezuelans into action. They rebelled against policies designed to further impoverish them and reward those who needed it least. Although the 1989 Caracazo emerged as an unplanned response to a set of new measure, the uprising also symbolized years of discontent over government corruption. The Caracazo destroyed the shady Perez, the prestige of the two major parties, and it opened the door to a more radical politics, outside the party structure.
(snip/...)

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/LAN407A.html



What are a photo of impeached Carlos Andres Perez, a view of a Caracas street at the time of the Caracazo massacre, and another photo of Carlos Andres Perez, with his good friend, _{George H. W. Bush?}

Timeline: Venezuela
A chronology of key events

~snip~
1973 - Venezuela benefits from oil boom and its currency peaks against the US dollar; oil and steel industries nationalised.

1983-84 - Fall in world oil prices generates unrest and cuts in welfare spending; Dr Jaime Lusinchi (AD) elected president and signs pact involving government, trade unions and business.

1989 - Carlos Andres Perez (AD) elected president against the background of economic depression, which necessitates an austerity programme and an IMF loan. Social and political upheaval includes riots, in which between 300 and 2,000 people are killed, martial law and a general strike.

1992 - Some 120 people are killed in two attempted coups, the first led by future president Colonel Hugo Chavez, and the second carried out by his supporters. Chavez is jailed for two years before being pardoned

1993-95 - Ramon Jose Velasquez becomes interim president after Perez is ousted on charges of corruption; Rafael Caldera elected president.

1996 - Perez imprisoned after being found guilty of embezzlement and corruption.

1998 - Hugo Chavez elected president.
(snip/...)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1229348.stm

[ronnie624]

163. After reading the post to which you responded

I started to Google up some info on the attempted coup d'etat lead by Chavez, then I noticed you had replied to the post. Sure enough, you had already done the legwork and linked to some excellent information. Thanks.

The post to which you replied is a prime example of how misinformation is presented as fact and spread far and wide before it can be countered by solid, fact-based information. There is quite a lot of that going on of late.

Your dedication as well as your research skills are very much appreciated.

[1932]

158. Jeez. Why so many mistakes of facts by Chavez critics? No civilians died.

in Chavez's coup. Fourteen soldiers died, 50 soldiers wounded, and 80 civilianse wounded in cross fire (Gott, Hugo Chávez and the Bolivarian Revolution, p. 69).

IIRC, 170 people died in the next attempted coup which was planned and executed while Chavez was in jail. I don't know what the civilian/soldier death ratio was with that one, but I'll check when I get a chance.

Anyway, one might conclude from the FACTS that that government was very unpopular and that Chavez is probably the guy you want leading your coup if you don't want civilian deaths.

[Judi Lynn]

162. It makes the truth so much more emphatic when it's pointed out!

What a shame people keep trying to misinform when sooner or later the truth DOES come out.

Very righteous post, 1932!

[ButterflyBlood]

135. Basically, what I said above

But it appears that some people here seem to think social programs cuts are equivalent to concentration camps.

[1932]

164. ....is based on lies.

See my last post.

[pooja]

189. IS HE WORSE

Bush is the leader of the "free" world...shouldn't he know better. Would that make him worse for knowing it is not right and doing all the same??? Or do the atrocities out weight in the matter??

[Blue_Tires]

130. brilliant n/t

[pezdespencer]

148. what would happen

What would happen if China, Russia, Iran, Germany, France, Venezuela and other country's that hate bush started talking genocide could this get bush imprisoned? Ill take the removal of shrub how ever I can get it. how would this effect every day people? anyone have an opinion?

[gordianot]

160. I have wondered the same thing.

Hugo Chavez is out there alone with maybe Fidel. Putin hints at his views on Bush but is not this blunt.

George Bush is dangerous, many realize this, I suspect that is why they hold their opinions. Who is willing to cage King Kong Bush?

[Judi Lynn]

153. ENI. SCARONI: GOOD RELATIONS WITH VENEZUELA

ENI. SCARONI: GOOD RELATIONS WITH VENEZUELA
(AGI) - Bologna, May 16 - According to Eni CEO Paolo Scaroni, relations with Venezuela, following the recent mediation on fiscal matters, are "good". Scaroni said the Eni is operating in Venezuela in 3 different sites, "Dacion, Corocoro and an offshore plant, where exploration has just begun". With the Venezuelan government, he added, Eni had two problems: "the first was their wish to get hold again of the Dacion field, and that's what they did, fair enough. I say our contract entailed a series of things, hence we maintain our contract effective, to know what compensation we'll get. The second issue regarded a pending tax matter, which came to a positive ending, I believe". Scaroni explained that, with regard to other situations in Venezuela, "there are no problems, hence Eni will not quit Venezuela". (AGI) .
(snip/)

http://www.agi.it/english/news.pl?doc=200605162011-1251...

[gordianot]

159. This is all inevitable. American descent into spheres of influence.

The New Corporate World Order just is not working out.

[Endangered Specie]

161. Oh brother...

Bad as he is, Bush is not (by far) the worst genocidal killer in the history of mankind.
Oh, and pulling for Iran is not my cup of tea either.

I think our hot-air-rhetoric friend could do well to quiet down and pick up a history book.

[1932]

166. Although I suspect that he's using hyperbole as a rhetorical device,

he did say "alive" and "in history" -- which is a contradiction -- and if we go with "alive," then who else alive today has invaded a nation on false pretenses and killed a lot of people as a resul?

[ButterflyBlood]

169. Saddam for one

And then there are nations that are much worse toward their own people, like Sudan or North Korea. Or the leaders of the Rwandan genocide.

[1932]

176. ...he shold have qualified with "not facing charges for his crimes"

and that would leave only Sudan, but I think the count for Sudan is 100k-300k, so there's still room for the US to take the gold depending on the accuracy of the Sudan numbers. What are the numbers for NK? (however, is it the intent of NK to kill its own citizens, or is that a consequence of incompetence?)

[ButterflyBlood]

179. It's not just Darfur in Sudan

Up until very recently Sudan was waging a brutal campaign against the mostly non-Muslim south until the rebel groups in the region forced them to a peace treaty forcing them out, and has been backing brutal insurgent groups in neighboring countries. The true numbers therefore are impossible to calculate, but could very well be over a million.

As for North Korea, more than 3 million have died in famine recently, which could've easily been prevented had the nation not continued to spend almost its entire budget on its giant military complex rather than any sort of humanitarian infrastructure. This may not classify as genocide, but it's certainly worse than the cutting of social programs which above someone argued to me was equivalent to the Holocaust. And actually, using that definition, the more precise one, Iraq is not genocide either, as it's not the systematic killing of Iraqis. All the cabal care about is setting up a government in there that let them get cheap oil and keep military bases, they don't care how many Iraqis are killed, regardless of how high or low it is. Note that you typically don't hear of the German invasion of the Soviet Union referred to as genocide, despite it killing more people than the Holocaust. While I opposed the invasion from day one, it's also important for us to not like the Freepers fall into the semantics trap such as when they argued Saddam's actions were "terrorism" (They were't, horrific as it was, under the true definition of terrorism.)

And despite all that, this is moving the goal posts quite a bit. There is a far cry from the most genocidal person alive today not brought to responsiblity for their actions, and the single most genocidal person in the history of the world, and Chavez said the latter. He'd have a much more valid point had he said the former, but he did not, and that's why his comments were ridiculous and are not helping his cause any.

[1932]

185. That's good research. Why didn't you know that no civilians died in '92

coup lead by Chavez?

Or did you know?

[ButterflyBlood]

188. That's what it used to say in the wiki article

looks like it was changed.

[1932]

190. has your opinion changed?

[1932]

194. I just checked Wikipedia history for that page and it doesn't look like

the 1992 Coup section was edited since you posted that claim above.

Or maybe I'm reading the page incorrectly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hugo_Ch ávez&action=history

[Endangered Specie]

178. Kim Jong Il, for starters...

persiding over a state which has seen 10% of its population starve, keeps the rest in 1984esque slavery and massive prison camps that sadly would easily dwarf Abu Graib.

Also, well, up uintil recently... Milosevic.

Too name some off the top of my head.

[AllieB]

168. This thread is so funny. People have swallowed MSM propaganda

and need to go back to political science 101-if they ever took a Poli Sci class.

[Judi Lynn]

171. It's hard to tell whether they've been gullible & believe it themselves,

or if they intend to push this crap, hoping people who haven't taken the time to inform themselves will be duped.

I can't imagine wanting to go to a right-wing idiots' message board, and wasting my time trying to argue with the slow ones there about Chavez and other leftists. Odd, isn't it?

You'd think they'd seek out their own element.

[AllieB]

172. Seems to be astroturf

Maybe they're assigned to DU to discourage support of governments critical of the Bush regime.

[paulk]

180. it seems to me that maybe, just maybe, people have taken

the time to inform themselves - and they've reached a different conclusion than you.

That doesn't make them gullible, and it doesn't make them right wingers, like you imply.

[1932]

187. Which anti-Chavez posts in this thread reveal informed opinions?

Most are just opinions. Often they get the facts completely backwards. And they rarely cite anything to support their opinions.

[paulk]

191. says you....

and that's another of the tactics I see on these Chavez threads -

you've got the facts, everyone else just has opinions.

[1932]

193. You can't just give me a post number? It's a tactic to point out that

the anti-Chavez posts are fact-free opinions?

Yeah, that's pretty devlish, isn't it? Having standards based on TRUTH and LOGIC. Lock up your children.

[1932]

195. And let's say, for the sake of argument,

that it is a "tactic" (rather than an honest observation pointing out the fact that anti-Chavez posters seem less concerned with the truth and share little more than unsubstantiated opinion), don't you think that the best way to counter it would be to actually start citing facts, or at least give me a post number of something that you consider a convincing, fact-based argument?

One thing that baffles me is upon what the anti-Chavez posters base their opinions. Why such passionately held positions when, if the surface of them is scratched, there are no facts underlying them?

[Judi Lynn]

196. I'd hate to rely upon rumor and deliberately contrived propaganda

from right-wing schemers for my "world view," wouldn't you?

You're right, they have no foundation which bears up to scrutiny. That's why they NEVER have anything to fall back upon, and simply repeat themselves endlessly, even when they are proven wrong.

[Judi Lynn]

181. The New York Times Versus Chavez

May 20 / 21, 2006

Talk About "Meddlesome"
The New York Times Versus Chavez
By GREG GRANDIN

You can tell that the US-led campaign against Hugo Chávez has reached a critical stage when the New York Times starts providing rhetorical cover for Condoleezza Rice's and Donald Rumsfeld's increasingly desperate efforts to isolate the Venezuelan president.

Chile's center-left president Michelle Bachelet -- who Rice name-drops every chance she gets to prove she can have socialist friends -- just last week warned Washington not to "demonize" Chávez. Yet despite this endorsement from Latin America's most lauded reformer, the Times on Saturday ran a 1300-word, front-page hatchet job by Juan Forero titled "Seeking United Latin America, Venezuela's Chávez Is a Divider; Some Neighbors Resent His Style as Meddlesome."

The article quotes seven sources, all openly anti-Chávez save for Brazil's president Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva. Lula, like Bachelet, has repeatedly defended his Venezuelan counterpart against Washington. But Forero ignores this support, instead choosing to cherry-pick through Lula's public statements to find, and take out of context, a rare criticism.

Other supposedly objective comments come from the center-right -- NYU's Jorge Castañeda -- to the Right-Right -- Johns Hopkin's Riordan Roett -- of the political spectrum. Its worth noting that Roett's primary claim to fame was a 1995 memo he wrote while an emerging-market consultant to Chase Manhattan Bank urging the Mexican government to "eliminate the Zapatistas" and to slowdown democratic reforms. Now that's "meddlesome."
(snip/...)

http://www.counterpunch.org/grandin05202006.html

[1932]

186. Stephen Kinzer's book Overthrow chronicles last century of US intervention

in foreign countries' politics.

In almost every case, NY Times helped out by printing lies on behalf of the US government. Every chapter -- for almost every foreign country -- includes a quote from the times that was full of lies.

[Judi Lynn]

192. What mentally competent person would ever forget Judy Miller's

"contribution" to journalism, on behalf of the N.Y. Times?

At some point, someone who remains in the dark about that paper should start recognizing the patterns.

Thanks for the reference to "Overthrow." People who read your links could do far worse with their available time than read the references you mention.

[Judi Lynn]

197. Here's a bit of news which might be worth noting for DU's Vene. watchers:

VENEZUELA: Colombian paramilitaries accused of murders

Jim McIlroy & Coral Wynter, Caracas

Paramilitaries infiltrated across the border from Colombia have murdered 1700 people in the south-western region of Venezuela over the past two years, according to Luis Tascon, the May 5 daily Diario Vea reported.

Tascon is a deputy in the National Assembly, which is composed entirely of supporters of socialist President Hugo Chavez following elections last December. Among those killed were more than 40 leaders of peasant organisations, as well as social movement activists and members of Venezuela’s armed forces.

Peasant activists have been targeted for assassination since the Chavez government passed a land reform law in 2001 opening the way for the redistribution of land holdings that exceed 5000 hectares and are being left idle or underutilised by their owners. So far, more than 2 million hectares have been redistributed to landless poor farmers.

Tascon added that about 50 Venezuelans, mainly cattle farmers and businesspeople, remain kidnapped by these paramilitaries. The majority were seized in Tachira state and taken to Colombian territory.

Iris Varela, also a National Assembly deputy from Tachira, claimed the state is suffering a wave of paramilitary assassinations. Among the victims are city as well as country dwellers. In the previous week in the town of Urena, two people who had close links with the Chavista mayor and were involved in the development of social programs in that area were murdered. The social programs are a key component of the Bolivarian revolution being led by Chavez, which is redistributing the nation’s wealth to benefit the poor majority.

In late April, eight people were shot dead in a house after they were involved in attempts to counter the influence of paramilitaries in the area. Workers, bus and truck drivers and other small businesspeople have been forced to pay protection money — called the “vaccine” — to the paramilitary gangs.
(snip/...)

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2006/668/668p14b.htm