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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 04:51 AM
Original message
85-year-old convicted of helping Nazis kill Jews
Associated Press in Vilnius
Tuesday March 28, 2006
The Guardian


A court in Vilnius yesterday convicted an 85-year-old Lithuanian man of helping the Nazis murder Jews but deemed him too frail to be jailed.

Algimantas Dailide helped round up Jews for the Nazis as part of the Nazi-backed Vilnius security police during the second world war, when nearly 90% of Lithuania's Jewish population was killed. The judge said the defendant had been aware of committing crimes against Jews, but had not personally taken part in the killings.

more...
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 04:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. This is one of those Solomon-like decisions
He's ancient and his health is failing, so the automatic reaction is "Why bother?" But, that would negate his heinous, past criminal acts, which need to be acknowledged. I think, in this case, the court did the correct thing. They tried and convicted him for his crimes, but did not put him in jail because at this point, it serves no public good (IMO).
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 05:05 AM
Response to Original message
2. Hopefully they will be able to execute him before he dies
He should be disposed of.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
19. I prefer post #1's opinion. -nt
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 05:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. I never understood the logic
of not keeping someone imprisoned because of 'poor health'. They did the same with Pinochet, didn't they?

I can undersand giving them continued medical care, but if these people that commited heinous crimes are caught, they should still spend SOME time in prison, even if its a few years before they rot to death.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I don't care how freaking old they are
if they participated in crimes against humanity they should be JAILED
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
27. Right. Did those who sent people to the concentration camps and
Edited on Wed Mar-29-06 09:08 AM by raccoon
operated the concentration camps give a rat's ass how old the Jews, gypsies, etc. were?

And I betcha he still doesn't think he did anything wrong. Not that that matters as far as justice or punishment is concerned.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I agree with you.
It is as if "poor health" is an excuse not to imprison this person. I don't think we should be denied care while in detention, but he should not have free access to his family and friends, or the public.

To me, he simply "lucked out," unlike many of his victims. Justice should not be bound by "but, he is old and sick." If they found the "Zodiac Killer" today, should he get a "free pass" (and, I do think this is a free pass) because he is in "poor health?"

While it seems they are willing to let him "die with dignity" (by not being placed in jail), they are condemning those he helped murder as "unworthy" of justice.

I believe in compassion, but I also believe in justice. Compassion and justice would be met with his withered, hateful body being placed in prison and receiving the compassion his victims never did.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. Pinochet's 'excuse' was that he was too ill to take part in his trial
and I can see the point of delaying a trial until the defendant is in reasonable health - they have to be able to hear the accusation and evidence against them, and help put their rebuttal (though Pinochet made a 'miraculous' recovery shortly after he got back to Chile from Britain). But I agree that if the trial was possible, then there shouldn't be a problem with sending them straight to a prison hospital.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 05:57 AM
Response to Original message
5. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Dr Batsen D Belfry Donating Member (650 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 06:31 AM
Response to Original message
7. This is personal
This guy had a hand in the deaths of my family members, several of whom were shot to death an buried in mass graves on the outskirts of Vilnius. He should be punished, not coddled. The fact he was convicted means nothing. There are plenty of people here who get convicted of things and are released with nothing more than a stain on their record, but it would be incredibly rare that they were complicit in the deaths of multiple people and got a free walk.

DBDB
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JudyM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. It's unbelievable what happened back then as the world sat back for so
long. Before my time, but none of my grandparents heard from their families in Eastern Europe post-Hitler. Never heard anything, so presumed murdered. They say Lithuanian Jews were a primary target of the nazis because they were so educated and politically outspoken. Only 10% survived. Can't help but wonder how it would be a different world today if all that human potential - including beyond Lithuania - was allowed to flourish. There'd probably be a lot more dems in the US, maybe the Shrub wouldn't've had such close elections...

I'm so sorry for your family's loss.

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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 06:32 AM
Response to Original message
8. It's symbolic justice if anything. It's really too late to do anything
to a convicted war crimes defendant as in this case. The tribunal is more important than the conviction as the facts are reviewed and made part of historical record and the injustices on a targeted group of people are made public instead of forgotten. Ninety percent of a group within a country. One of them could have been a member of my extended family or I could have been non-existent had my grandparents stayed put in Lithuania.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. No, it is not too late to do anything. He is not dead.
He should be imprisoned!

Your user name would indicate that you believe that fact. The hypocrisy is that he "did the crime, but, won't do the time."
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
10. Throw his murdering ass in prison
I don't acre if he's too frail -- he deserves to be punished for this. He can be treated decently in jail over there -- it's not the US. But, he should serves jail time for this. The Lithuanians were extremely vicious in their collaboration with the Nazis over the "Jewish Question" in their country. They quite gleefully did alot of the Nazis work for them.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
11. Looking at this, time is of no matter, he should be jailed. He was
afforded a trial, something that was denied those that were caught up in the Holocaust. He was given an extra 60+ of life, after lives were snuffed out on a whim. Many who tried to aid the victims were killed; what he did was a concious decision on his part. Unless he has spent those 60+ years trying to atone for the crime with every fiber of his being, he is guilty.

Justice does not know time frames. What he did in complicity is a crime against humanity and payment is due.
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
12. hmm, interesting
I say let the guy just die and let God decide his punishment.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
13. What about IBM, etc?
If US corporations have the same "rights" as individuals then why aren't they held to the same standard in anti Nazi cases like the above?

IBM (and other US corporations) did more to help the Nazis murder millions than did this man.


http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/jun2001/ibm-j27.shtml
IBM helped the Nazis carry through their policy of genocide. Without this assistance, Hitler’s regime would not have been able to carry through its extermination plan with such efficiency. IBM’s machines were used at all stages of the persecution of the Jews. They collected the necessary information to identify the Nazis’ victims, first to enforce the bar on Jews working in certain academic, professional and government jobs and later to carry out mass evictions from their homes and into the ghettoes.

IBM technology was used to organise the railways, so that millions of Nazi’ victims could be transported to the concentration camps, where they were immediately led into the gas chambers. There were Hollerith departments at nearly every concentration camp, which registered the arrival of inmates, organised the allocation of slave labourers, and even kept tallies on the deaths of prisoners.

IBM was involved in virtually every aspect of the Third Reich’s operations. The book explains that the company leased, serviced and upgraded more than 2,000 IBM multi-machine sets throughout Germany, and thousands more throughout Nazi occupied Europe. IBM developed custom-designed cards used by the Nazis; with as many as 1.5 billion punch cards being produced in Germany annually.

The punch card technology first developed by Hollerith, a German-American living in Washington, was used to enable the US Census Bureau to count the 1890 census. Decades prior to the development of computers, Hollerith technology enabled the fastest tabulation of the US population ever undertaken. Through a series of punch holes, each card recorded information on an individual’s gender, religion, nationality and occupation. Processed, and reprocessed, through sorting and counting machines the cards “could render the portrait of an entire population or could pick out any group within that population... Every punch card would become an informational storehouse limited only by the number of holes”. (p25) Within years, Hollerith’s machines were being used to take censuses across the world. The technology also developed into an early computing system, being used for financial accountancy by some of the largest US corporations.

Hollerith established a near-world wide monopoly, leasing rather than selling his machines, but sold up in 1911 and the company was merged into the Computing-Tabulating-Recording Company. Under the stewardship of ex-sewing machine salesman Thomas Watson, CTR was transformed in the International Business Machines Corporation. Watson, a ruthless businessman, established a paternalistic hierarchy in the company. Watson spoke of the “IBM family” that included not only his workers, but also their wives and children, who would also be trained in the “IBM spirit” and would be well looked after and integrated into his empire.

In 1922, with hyperinflation in Germany leading to the collapse of the currency, Watson took over Dehomag (Deutsche Hollerith Maschinen Gesellschaft) that had used the punch card technology under licence. This German subsidiary would later play a crucial role in IBM’s business alliance with the Third Reich. By 1933, when Hitler came to power, Watson had transformed the formerly ailing German company into IBM’s flag ship—producing more than three times above its quota.

But there was the promise of even more to come. “Nazi Germany offered Watson the opportunity to cater to government control, supervisions, surveillance, and regimentation on a plane never before known in human history. The fact that Hitler planned to extend his Reich to other nations only magnified the prospective profits. In business terms, that was account growth. The technology was almost exclusively IBM’s to purvey because the firm controlled about 90 percent of the world market in punch cards and sorters.” (p46)

Black stresses that Watson was not a fascist, but a ruthless profiteer. The strong German state under an authoritarian leader offered great potential for moneymaking, and that was what Watson identified with. In fact, as the chairman of IBM, one of the most prestigious companies in the USA, Watson was a well-respected businessman, a supporter of Roosevelt and special advisor to the president. Watson was elected chairman of the Foreign Department that also made him chairman of the American section of the International Chamber of Commerce (ICC). This, in essence, made Watson America’s official businessman to the rest of the world. He became installed as president of the entire ICC in 1937 and arranged the organisation’s next conference in Berlin.

Right from the start, IBM developed business solutions for the Third Reich. In April 1933, the Hitler regime began a census of all Germans, partly aimed at identifying Jews. The first step was to register data about the citizens of Germany’s largest state, Prussia, which Dehomag was commissioned to undertake. The procedure that was established in this census gives an example of how the co-operation between Dehomag and the Nazis would work in practice in the fields of statistical and data collection.

To cater to the specific requirements of Germany’s statistical programmes, the closest collaboration between Dehomag’s technicians and the Nazi authorities was necessary. Every project required specific customized applications. First, Dehomag was specifically informed about the task to be undertaken. Then mock-ups of punch cards were produced with pen and pencil marking the columns and holes to carry the needed information. Production of the punch cards only began if both Dehomag and the German reporting agencies were happy with the result. The company then manufactured and sold the cards, often pre-printed with project names. Once a project was undertaken, the company trained the personal to carry out the work.

With the expansion of its enterprise, Dehomag needed constant technical innovations and developments. Far from intervening in its German subsidiary to halt its collaboration with the Nazi persecution, IBM in New York carefully supervised the whole process and also would make sure that all technical requirements were provided. Dehomag technicians were constantly sent to the US for training.

Whilst IBM was famed in the US, little was known about its German activities. The internal structure of Dehomag was organised in such a way that as far as the Nazis were concerned it was a German company, whilst overall control remained with IBM. This also meant that the mother company could circumvent the American trading restrictions with Germany, once the war had begun.

Nonetheless, Watson not only fully exploited the profit making possibilities offered by Nazi Germany, he also became a political spokesperson for the German Reich. Black explains that Watson believed the world should extend “a sympathetic understanding to the German people and their aims under the leadership of Adolf Hitler”. (p43)

For his role, Watson was awarded the specially created Merit Cross of the German Eagle with Star to “honour foreign nationals who made themselves deserving of the German Reich”—a medal ranking second in prestige only to Hitler’s German Grand Cross. Only when the war started did it become necessary for Watson to return his medal.

In 1937, the Nazi regime ordered another nationwide census. This one was decisive for Hitler’s war preparations and “for the Jews it would be the final and decisive identification step”. (p139) In accordance with the Nuremberg race laws, it meant tracing any Jewish ancestry. IBM bought in 70 card sorters, 60 tabulators, 76 multipliers and 90 million punch cards for the 3.5 million Reich Mark contract (worth about $14m today).

In advance of the Nazi annexation of Austria in 1938, IBM’s Viennese subsidiary, under the supervision of Adolf Eichmann, was working to collate comprehensive demographic information about the country on punch cards. This meant the Hitler regime knew exactly where the Austrian Jews were that were to subject to the forced expulsion programme.

When German troops invaded Czechoslovakia on March 15, 1939, IBM was already there and was helping to run strategic operations such as the State Railway, whose system could be easily taken over by the Nazis.

After several postponements, the nation-wide census ordered in 1937 was finally carried out in May 1939. Some 750,000 census-takers were involved, covering all of the Greater Reich’s 22 million households—80 million citizens in Germany, Austria, the Sudentenland, and the Saar.

This was Dehomag’s biggest undertaking. It included a so-called “supplemental card” to record each household’s racial ancestry. This enabled the identification of a total of 330,530 so-called “racial Jews” in the Greater Reich. This was then broken down by gender, and was further divided between “full-Jews” and other shades of Jewish ancestry, with all those recorded in this way also being identified by their address.

This pattern would be repeated over and over again. In virtually every country that the Nazis occupied, an IBM subsidiary—normally already doing business there—would collect national and racial statistical information for the Nazis, which could then be used to identify Jews and other undesirables.

Dehomag even knew in advance that Hitler was preparing for war, as the company had been approached on how to protect its functioning in the event of an attack. With the outbreak of World War II in September 1939, IBM profits leapt as a result of Germany’s activities—especially with the roundups in Poland and the East.

Whether it was in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, Scandinavia, Sweden, Belgium, the Netherlands or France the Nazi war machine relied upon IBM technology. It helped to organise the allocation of military equipment and personnel just as efficiently as it assisted in identifying Jews and facilitated their transportation to the death camps by train. Although it is true that even without the collaboration of IBM, Hitler fascism would still have carried through its policy of genocide, it is equally true that without it, the Nazis could not have proceeded with such ruthless efficiency.

After the war, IBM was able to retrieve its German assets, machines and profits alike with astonishing ease. At the end of 1946, Dehomag was valued at more than 56.6 million Reich Marks ($230m today) with a gross profit of 7.5 million Reich Marks ($30m). Its machines had been salvaged, its profits preserved and its corporate value protected.

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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Because of what a corporation is, that's why.
It's not the CEO. It's nominally the board. But that's just a stand-in for the shareholders.

So there's a choice: You can hold the board members responsible--but holding the board members 60 years after the fact personally responsible is absurd. You can hold the shareholders personally responsible, but by then the blame is quite attenuated, and you'd be arresting thousands of people and trying them for third- and fourth-hand complicity. You could have simply dissolved the corporation, and confiscate its holdings, but then you wind up penalizing the shareholders for either not banding together to stop something that wasn't illegal or for not selling their shares. Moreover, most of the corporations that cooperated with the Nazis before the war did nothing illegal (and prosecuting cases based on morality, not legality, is, well, a sort of witch-hunt), and after the war started their subsidiaries were essentially cut off or operated through informal mechanisms. You could punish the current shareholders, but that would be mostly investment funds, insurance companies, and pension funds.

Corporations are a good thing, in that they allow a lot of people to pool their resources for large-scale efforts that few individuals could pull off, and allow for the profits from those efforts to be distributed fairly widely. But with that comes a disconnect in responsibility. Punishing the corporation is frequently different from punishing the guilty people. One could argue that, say, my retired mother is responsible for some toxic waste spill because she receives a pension that owns 1.2% of the corporation's stock, and she should therefore forfeit her pension; but that's sketchy.
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. What a cop out!!
The guy was asking SPECIFICALLY about IBM's collaboration...

Taking us on a whirlwind powerpoint presentation of 'The Corporation and You' is not really germane to a discussion of a vast mechanized killing machine, like Nazism, that was entirely and logically organzied along those SAME corporate relationships...

You honestly believe that nonsense..."You can hold the board members responsible--but holding the board members 60 years after the fact personally responsible is absurd."????

So if the scummy Nazi being coddled in Lithuania had simply...what incorporated himself...or been a CEO for say a firm called ---um---KBR, simply 'contracted' out the Holocaust, then AOK, huh?

Good grief...
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enigma000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. World Socialist Web Site?
Edited on Tue Mar-28-06 11:41 AM by enigma000
Now that a website that will never talk about Hitler's number one supporter: Joseph Stalin. IBM provided some punch-card machines, Stalin was the man behind Hilter's war machine.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. "Stalin was the man behind Hilter's war machine?"
That, sir, is extremely over-the-top hyperbole. Stalin is guilty of leaving Hitler alone when he shouldn't, but... really, the Germans needed no help in building a war machine.

About IBM: how about this? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0609808990
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enigma000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Well, some hyperbole, yes
But the USSR provided assistance beyond how a neutral country would act, Mr. CPD.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0275963373/103-3565632-0083869?v=glance&n=283155

Still you seem correct about IBM's activities. Wasn't there a neutrality act or something?
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Not only IBM, but many other US corporations and banks
Edited on Wed Mar-29-06 08:42 AM by Billy Burnett
Ford and the Nazis

GM and the Nazis

Du Pont and the Nazis

Harriman and the Nazis

There are plenty more.


The US provided more than a little assistance. There were profits to be made in slavery and facism for US übercapitalist corporations.

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enigma000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Sounds like our dealings with China today
Or Saudi Arabia. Where there is a buck to be made........

Still, its not like the Europeans and the Chinese aren't there as well.
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
15. Age, frailty should not matter. He committed a crime against humanity and
should be punished for it. No debate. No quarter.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
20. He should be punished
It's really a shame that he wasn't jailed until now.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. House arrest, perhaps?
I'd go for that. Yes, it's largely symbolic, but at that stage that's all one could ask for.

I wonder if the guy has assets that could be confiscated.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I could live with that
assets confiscated, all said and done he shouldn't be able to live like a normal citizen would, I don't think he should be left alone just because the time has passed and his age, when it comes to something despicable like aiding a genocide, then age should be shown no boundaries.
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