U.S. makes low-key appeal in Afghan case (Christian convert trial)

[sabra]

http://www.sanluisobispo.com/mld/sanluisobispo/news/politics/14152937.htm

U.S. makes low-key appeal in Afghan case

Associated Press

WASHINGTON - The Bush administration issued a subdued appeal Tuesday to Afghanistan to permit a Christian convert on trial for his life to practice his faith in the predominantly Muslim country.

The State Department, however, did not urge the U.S. ally in the war against terrorism to terminate the trial. Officials said the Bush administration did not want to interfere with Afghanistan's sovereignty.

The case involves an Afghan man who converted from Islam and was arrested last month after his family accused him of becoming a Christian. The conversion is a crime under Afghanistan's Islamic laws.

Undersecretary of State Nicholas Burns and department spokesman Sean McCormack asked Afghanistan to conduct the trial "in a transparent way." Burns said he told Afghan Foreign Minister Abdullah Abdullah, with whom he held talks at the department, that "we would follow the case closely."

[daleo]

1. I think he will be given refugee status in U.S. or Canada

It will probably be finessed in some way like that.

[xray s]

3. He doesn't want to live in Canada

He wants to be a Christian and live in his homeland and is willing to die for it.

And all Bush can do is offer "subdued responses".

[daleo]

31. I am not saying he wants to move to Canada or the U.S.

I just think that is how the issue may ultimately be resolved (but only time will tell).

There is no way Bush could let him be executed for conversion to Christianity (that would be bad optics for Bush in the U.S.), but it may be difficult to put pressure on the current Afghanistan government to ignore the conversion (that would be bad optics for Bush/Karzai in Afghanistan). The local population would probably see it as "Christian armies came into Afghanistan and now they are insisting on Christian conversions".

It could prove to be quite a quandary, if the fellow involved is very committed to his position, as you say he is.

[xray s]

2. Bush is scared shitless over this story

This is the net result of 2300 dead American soldiers, 18000 with their limbs blown off, and a trillion dollars spent in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Fundementalist regimes that kill Christian converts. All all Bush can do is offer a "subdued appeal".

The DNC should mail this story to every mailbox on every red state.

[acmejack]

5. We can use their trick-a targeted mailing!

To every voting age person ina red state in the us. We can scrape up the money, I'll bet we can get a fund drive going to cover it. Of course it is kind of within the DNC's purview.

[Inland]

7. He should be.

What he's doing right now is shipping huge boxes of cash to every person in the area to get them to just drop it somehow without it looking like Bush is running the show.

That way the fact that he is installing repressive, islamic warlords to replace a repressive, fundamentalist islamic Taliban will go unnoticed.

[MsUnderstood]

4. there you go Christian America supporting your christian president

he doesn't care about your religion or he'd protect the one guy standing up for it. But if you are in a coma and need him to call an emergency session our president is on the march!

[Inland]

6. I was asking about this earlier today.

Apparently it took two days of press reports for Bush to ask that the man be judged fairly under a law that makes relgious belief punishable by death. "It's a fair court", says the defendant, as he is found to be a christian and buried under a pile of stones until dead.

[seriousstan]

8. Someone tell me again about this "religion of peace".

[VegasWolf]

9. I guess you mean as opposed to say the Catholic Church's inquisitions

raw land crusades for riches, heretic burning Fridays, etc???

[Mizmoon]

13. I have a problem with the basic premise

This is part of the reason why the threat from Islamic fascism has grown unchecked - this liberal (in the academic sense as opposed to political) idea that this oppression is just like in our own past and that it's all a big cultural pot calling the kettle black.

It is wrong to outlaw another religion, and it doesn't matter if the Crusaders did it, the Queen of England, or the Nazis. Today we all know that freedom of religion is a requirement for human freedom. Excusing it because of some sort of Western cultural guilt is a mistake.

It is wrong the way Islam oppresses women and we should say so.
It is wrong the way Islam oppresses other religions and we should say so.
Just as we do when Christians do it.
To ignore it is a betrayal of true liberalism.

[seriousstan]

15. Can you focus on THE LAST COUPLE OF FUCKING CENTURIES????

WOW, how far back do you need to go to deflect a point?

The Spanish Inquisition was a historical institution founded under Ferdinand and Isabella of Castile in 1478. 1478 1478 1478!!

THIS trial is GOING ON NOW!!!

[VegasWolf]

39. Jeez, you RELIGIOUS TYPES always FORGET, first your HISTORY, then Salem

Witch trials, etc. Religons are sick, they are designed to control the sheep. Always have, always will. Protest all you WANT, you can't change HISTORY!!!!! What the fuck do 500 years have to do with an organization that is SUPPOSED to be godly. Are you saying that religion was fucked up 500 years ago and now its all hunky-dory. You believe if you want to, not me.

[ButterflyBlood]

42. Atheists killed more people than any other group in the 20th century

Remember Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot?

Obviously, this doesn't mean that all atheists are responsible for this, but it does show that no group has a monopoly on terror and repression.

As for what happened in the 500 years, Christianity went through an Enlightement. Islam hasn't. Christianity sure still has loads of problems abound in it, but it sure as hell isn't as much of a problem to world stability as Islam is now.

[VegasWolf]

43. Atheists are simply people who don't believe in God. You have specified

a meaningless categorization. A Berkley prof is a long way from Hitler. Your argument that
atheists are a "group" is a pretty weak argument, sort of like asserting that white people kill more people than black people.

You have missed my point entirely, Christianity is a man made organization that SOME PEOPLE believe is divinely inspired. If that were the case and Christianity was so fucked up 500 years ago, then how could it be divinely inspired. Maybe god got better I guess.

If you agree that Christianity is just a group of people in a common man-made organization with no special claims to any divinity, well then, happy dandy that it cleaned up its act. I still could care less about joining it, just as I don't care about joining the local tennis club.

BTW, I guess we agree that 500 years ago Christianity was a major problem for the world.

In my opinion, the same as Bush's Christianity is today for the world.

[ButterflyBlood]

36. Can you perhaps give examples that aren't 5 centuries old? n/t

[VegasWolf]

40. See my previous response! nt

[IndianaGreen]

11. Christians murdered Matthew Shepard in Wyoming

LGBT people know a thing or two about the dominant "religion of peace" in America.

What's that I hear about people living in glass houses?

[Mizmoon]

14. I've been involved with the Catholic and Episcopal churches

for decades and I've never heard anyone talk about hurting gay people.

[seriousstan]

16. Let me tell you all about the gay murderers and thieves in the world.

I am sure they are represntatives of ALL LGBT's.

Since when do murderers define the religion that they are not following? If Christian church's would call for GLBT's death, THEN you would have a pont.

I am talking about Sharia law.

I hear that people living in glass houses buy a lot of Windex so they can see the world as it truly is.

What is that I hear about people who wear bias colored glasses?

[IndianaGreen]

17. I see no difference between Leviticus and Sharia law

they are both ancient tribal laws that demand death as payment to a bloodthirsty deity.

[seriousstan]

18. Precisely what church advocates making Leviticus law?

Other than a fool named Phelps whose church consists almost entirely of his own family, no Christian church calls for the death penalty for homosexuality.

Can you get those glasses in self darkening shades?

[Solon]

19. The Christian Reconstructionist Movement for one...

about 20 to 30% of the people in this country who are Christians are followers of this movement, give or take a few.

[seriousstan]

20. Link to the call for a death penalty and also you "numbers"?

[Solon]

21. Two Pastors in Texas called for the execution of Wiccans...

You can find more on the Movement here:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reconstr.htm

I couldn't find any raw numbers, unfortunately, so I estimated knowing the religious demographics that estimate that anywhere from 30 to 35% of the people in this country are Fundlementalists, and then I lowered that a reasonable amount, knowing that although the Fundies, by definition, would believe in the Movement theologically, they probably disagree about influencing secular government with the relgion.

[seriousstan]

22. You extrapolated from 2 pastors to 35%? Nice math.

[Solon]

23. They are but a single example...

I gave a source, WHY NOT READ IT!!!!

[seriousstan]

24. Since I first read your post I have been reading and googling.

Nobody, that I can find, gives numbers for membership. Several sources state that this movement was splintered in 1985.
I have also found no established Christian religion supporting this bunch of fools. For you to say 30% of all Christians believe/are members of this sect is ludicrous. The number of snake handling fools out there is very small.

[Solon]

26. First I didn't say 30%

I said 20-30% in other words, I'm guessing, but you have to realize that these people follow people like Pat Robertson and others, and they have followings in the millions. I face the same problems as you, trying to find numbers is almost impossible, but remember, this group isn't exactly organized into a single church. Many fundlementalist churches DO advocate execution for people who violate Leviticus's moral codes, but none of the major denominations of Christianity advocate this openly, some use cover like "Its Immoral" and opposing civil rights for homosexuals. But, as it is said, give them an inch and they will take a mile, I have no doubt that if the Southern Baptists, or the Catholic church were given real governmental power that they would use it to send "undesirables" to death.

[ButterflyBlood]

38. There are no non-Islamic countries where gays are executed

The only countries that do so are Islamic. The ones heavily influenced by the Catholic church don't, nor do the ones that are heavily influenced by evangelicals in Africa. These countries do have massive problems on other issues of course, but gays being executed is not one of them.

Also, can you find me any official statements by the Catholic Church or Southern Baptists that homosexuals should be executed? Simply saying they use cover states but assuming that this is what they really mean doesn't count.

Don't get me wrong, I do think the attitudes of fundies and the Catholic church toward homosexuals are disgusting regardless and I strongly oppose them as well. But to argue that they are on the same level of Islamic fundies is asinine.

[Inland]

29. Leviticus isn't law. It's a book. Sharia is law in Afghanistan.

So you have pretty much two different situations: One, a book, and two, an enforced law with a penalty of death. One, an ancient and defunct tribal law, and two, a current and enforced law of the Sovereign State of Afghanistan. One, rhetorical excess, two, actual death.

[ButterflyBlood]

37. The difference is that no one is demanding Leviticus be made law

n/t

[megatherium]

27. Were the punks who murdered Shepard Christians?

I thought they were just meth users.

But regardless of what hate crimes against gays happen in the US, the point is that in Afghanistan, the state is preparing to put to death someone for a crime of conscience. Not dumb-fuck meth heads, but the state. So if the People of Wyoming tried Shepard for the crime of homosexuality, and then executed him -- that would be a fair comparison. Of course, Wyoming has and will do no such thing. (Sodomy in this country was never punishable by death, at least not since Colonial times; in modern times, prison sentences or forced "treatment" would be the result of a sodomy conviction. Of course, these laws were overturned in 2003.)

By the way: I am a gay man. I do know a few things about the "dominent 'religion of peace'" in this country -- I'm Episcopalian. The Episcopal Church has recently ordained a practicing gay man as bishop, as strong a statement of inclusion and acceptance as is possible in that Church.

[Inland]

30. Well, let's be real.

Afghanistan isn't the most representative muslim country on the planet. It's been the rear end of the Islamic world for five hundred years, put up with a brutal invasion and occupation by an atheist regime, was saved by nutbag religious zealots funded by us, and makes its living selling dope while it is ruled by a bunch of warlords in a loose alliance with a government in Kabul.

So you're going to find a pretty harsh version of just about anything, including islam.

Moreover, given the fact that the religious fundamentalist Taliban are still active and very well able to put a bullet in the judge's brain, it might be an even smaller minority terrorizing a small minority.

[madmark]

34. When Afghanistan was under the Kwarzm Shah in the 1100s it was

one of the most modern, cosmopolitan and muslim places on earth. Then they got sideways with Ghengis Khan who as a result tore them several new orifices and to this day it, and the rest of the muslim middle east, still havent recovered.

[Mizmoon]

10. What a horror show

All I can do is moan, "Why o why did Bush invade Iraq?"

It's the biggest mistake in American history.

[LynnTheDem]

12. Bush administration didn't want to interfere w Afghanistan's sovereignty

:wow: :wow: :wow:

[megatherium]

28. Never stopped us when it came to petroleum. Why would it now?

Saudi Arabia lacks the most basic of human rights, but they're our friends.

[killbotfactory]

25. Glad we brought freedom to Afghanistan

[Malikshah]

32. Interesting twist--for all those who are salivating over the case

and preparing their anti-Islam jibes

Afghan convert may be unfit to stand trial
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11955289/


BTW--lest the rabid anti-Islam folks get their knickers in a twist, I'm not bringing this story up to detract from other issues--but rather to shed light on one key factor

We in the US tend to have absofrikkinglutely no problem executing mentally disabled folks, etc.

Islamic law expressly forbids that.



Now-- everyone come out from their corners and start swinging. Enjoy the rabidity...

[sattahipdeep]

33. Will Salam Zaeef do the psychological exam?

Moayuddin Baluch, a religious adviser to President Hamid Karzai
says Rahman will undergo a psychological exam.

"We think he could be mad. He is
not a normal person. He doesn't talk like a normal person."

Last week, Rahman told reporters, "They want to sentence me
to death, and I accept it, but I am not a deserter and not an infidel."

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7002880811

http://www.dawn.com/2005/09/13/int12.htm

[madmark]

35. my take is that the because of the world media attention on the matter

Afghanistan is looking for a face saving way to get out of the matter. If nobody was looking, they would kill the guy.

[VegasWolf]

41. You won't hear any arguments from me. Let the religious types argue

whose religion is better!