NYT/Reuters: Cuban Women March for Release of Dissidents

[DeepModem Mom]

Cuban Women March for Release of Dissidents
By REUTERS
Published: March 18, 2006

HAVANA (Reuters) - Thirty "Ladies in White'' marched through the streets of Havana on Saturday to demand the release of dissidents jailed three years ago by President Fidel Castro's Communist government.

The women, who dress in white and march in silent protest, are relatives of 75 dissidents jailed in 2003 in a crackdown on mounting opposition to Castro's rule. Fifteen were freed last year on medical parole, but 60 are still behind bars.

"We are calling for freedom for all political prisoners,'' said Laura Pollan, leader of the group that last year won the Sakharov prize, the European Union's top human rights award.

The women, wives and mothers of the jailed men, carried gladioli and banners that said "Amnesty'' on their one-hour demonstration through central Havana.

For three years, members of the group have marched silently every Sunday after mass at a Catholic church to demand the release of their loved ones....

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/international-cuba-dissidents.html

[manic expression]

1. If anyone cares...

those 75 "dissidents" were arrested and imprisoned because they were taking funds from the US government. They were, in effect, agents of an aggressive foreign power, using resources from that power to destabilize Cuba. In case anyone is wondering, that (IIRC) is illegal in just about every country, including the US.

The US has been continuously attempting to destabilize the country of Cuba, first through invasions, then through the embargoes that are still enforced and in this case through giving money to "dissidents". Cuba was well within its rights to arrest these individuals. Furthermore, there is assuredly freedom of speech in Cuba (this has little to do with freedom of speech, by the way).

Some sources and info:

"Into this growing confrontation stepped James Cason as the new chief US diplomat in Havana, with a brief to boost support for Cuba's opposition groups. The US's huge quasi-embassy mainly provided equipment and facilities, but millions of dollars of US government aid also appears to have been channelled to the dissidents through Miami-based exile groups. The final trigger for Castro's clampdown was a string of US-indulged plane and ferry hijackings in April, against a background of US warnings about the threat to its security and Cuban fears of military intervention in the event of a mass exodus from Cuba - a scenario long favoured by Miami exiles."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1009384,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm

[smitty]

2. Castro has been in power since 1959, it's time for him to go.

He's a dictator, period.

[Crunchy Frog]

4. That decision is for the Cubans to make, not us.

There's plenty of bad guys out there. The one that I'm concerned about is in our own White House. At this point, we really don't have the moral authority to be lecturing other countries on democracy and human rights.

[Mika]

5. Actually, he hasn't

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html
Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

Cuba's system of government was reorganized to a parliamentary system in 1976.



http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.Instead the candidates are nominated by grass roots assemblies and by electoral commissions comprising representatives of all the mass organisations.
The municipal elections are the cornerstone of Cuba's political structure. They comprise delegates who have great authority amongst the local population and who are elected for reasons of known integrity, intelligence, hard work and honesty.

The elections to the provincial and national assemblies (Cuba's regional and national parliaments) follow a different procedure. For deputies to the national assembly the nominating process involves proposals from the municipal councils.

In addition to receiving nominations from different organisations and institutions, the candidacy commissions carry out an exhaustive process of consultation before drawing up a final slate. In the February 1993 elections they consulted more than 1.5 million people and established a pool of between 60 and 70 thousand potential candidates before narrowing it down to 589.

The nominating process and the huge participation in the last election clearly show that the deputies to Cuba's parliament enjoy massive public support.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version, in an analysis of the entire 1997-98 election season, here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[Media_Lies_Daily]

8. The Castro-haters will never acknowledge the facts you posted.

[geek tragedy]

11. Why does Cuba BAN all opposition parties?

I doubt all the Castro cultists here would consider the US a democracy if the Republican party was the only party allowed to organize and participate in the workings of government.

[TomClash]

16. I think the Cuban Government would say

it's because of the threat from its neighbor to the North, armed with money from Cuban exiles. Plus, they would say, differing views are expressed within the Communist Party. Finally, I think they would tell you "what about the US - you have two parties - and they are often difficult to tell apart and your elections are subject to fraud - the Diebold counting system."

[Mika]

20. Castro cultists?

You continue to hurl your pathetic broad brush insults on these threads.

Just who are these "Castro cultists"?

I've seen none here on DU.

I have seen supporters of Cuba's sovereignty and independence. No "Castro cultists" though.

Please point out some of the posts that you consider to be pro Castro (not pro Cuba) - pro Castro. Lets see them. You claim that there are "Castro cultists" here, lets see some of the posts that represent this cultism.

[ronnie624]

23. "Castro cultist"

is the sort of nonsense that one must deal with when attempting to communicate with those who prefer to wallow in their self-imposed ignorance. As a resident of north Texas I am around many such people every day.

Democratic Underground is one of my lifelines to logic and reason and I cannot help but wonder in astonishment at finding the same sort of gibberish here that I hear from the most ignorant of red-necks.

Oh well, what can one do? Life goes on.

[Judi Lynn]

24. Very glad to have you with us, ronnie624.

They have used their euphemisms like "Castro apologist" and "Castro's Useful Idiots" ever since more Americans started learning about Cuba when Elián Gonzalez was kept prisoner by his disfunctional distant relatives in Miami.

Cuban "exiles" and their progeny started haunting message boards and fighting tooth and nail with Americans who are determined to find out more about Cuba.

This is their way of calling people "communists" who disagree with them, and it's a clear attack on other posters, which is a cheap-shot.

[Billy Burnett]

28. *IF* pro Cuba equals pro Castro, then anti Castro equals anti Cuba.

I've noticed that the "logic" used by the US anti Cuba policy cultists is = if one supports Cuba and the accomplishments of the Cuban people and their gov. (accomplishments that Judi Lynn, Dr. Mika, and others have pointed out quite accurately) then they are branded as supporters of Castro. The slanderers give no quarter, and constantly repeat this meme. The "logic"?... Cuba = Castro, Castro = Cuba.

If we were to apply the same logic as these ad hominem attackers use, then doesn't this logic mean that, by being so fervently anti Castro, they are anti Cuba? Since, to them, every thing that is Cuba is Castro?

Most of the slanderers claim to support the Cuban people, but the Cuban people support their system of government (as evidenced by the CIA annual reports on Cuba that Judi Lynn has posted previously on the Cuba related threads). This means, by extension of the "logic", that being anti Castro one must be anti Cuba, since every thing Cuba equals Castro.

--

What has to be considered is just how deep is the denial of the anti Cuba cultists. Just who do they think creates the accomplishments of the Cuban infrastructure? Castro? Or is it the Cuban people? To constantly claim that it is Castro is to constantly deny recognition that the Cuban people are the creators of their accomplishments.

In essence, the claim that Castro does everything IS an anti Cuban sentiment.

Dr. Mika has repeatedly pointed out to BOTH the pro and anti Cuba posters that Castro is not responsible for everything that goes on in Cuba.

To repeatedly claim that Dr. Mika is a "Castro cultist" or Castro supporter is nothing more than a hollow ad hominem attack, because it is he who has constantly refuted that the accomplishments of Cuba's infrastructure as the accomplishments of Castro.


--


Thank you Judi Lynn and Dr. Mika for continuing the discussions on Cuba, and for defending the Cuban people, despite the slanders and slurs hurled at you by anti Cuban US hegemony cultists who try to hijack your postings.

:hi:

[geek tragedy]

43. Castro cultists are easy to see:

They define all, or around 99% thereof, Cuban opponents to Castro as traitors, tools of the imperialists, etc etc.

To them, to be anti-Castro or anti-Communist party is to be anti-Cuba.

It's the very essence of authoritarian thinking. And left wing authoritarian regimes have their cheerleaders here.

[robcon]

34. Mika: YOU are one of the Castro cultists.

You've never met a Cuban shut down of an opposition newspoaper, or arrest of those who signed the Varela project, that you couldn't excuse.

[Mika]

38. Actually, I have.

They were in the employ of the US government - the declared enemy of the Cuban government.

Legitimate opposition is alive and well in Cuba, just not the political opposition parties funded by the declared enemy state of Cuba (that has funded and perpetrated attacks on Cuba, Cuban, and Cuban interests - not to mention dozens of assassination attempts of the Cuban Head of State)) whos intended goal is the overthrow of the system of government of Cuba. The US has similar laws regulating foreign support of US political parties also.




As I have repeatedly stated, Castro is not the be-all end-all of Cuba.

Unlike you, I have NO obsession with Castro.

In your postings on Cuba threads you constantly post 'Castro this' and 'Castro that', Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro.

So, actually, your obsession with Castro makes you the Castro cultist.

[Bacchus39]

41. Cuba has but one legal party

Artículo 5.- El Partido Comunista de Cuba, martiano y marxista- leninista, vanguardia organizada de la nación cubana, es la fuerza dirigente superior de la sociedad y del Estado, que organiza y orienta los esfuerzos comunes hacia los altos fines de la construcción del socialismo y el avance hacia la sociedad comunista.

President Fidel Castro is trying to stifle a debate within the government and society about the wisdom of opening up the Cuban political system to satisfy an evolving dissident human rights movement.


In a speech Tuesday marking the 35th anniversary of the start of the Cuban revolution, Castro emphatically asserted that he will never allow opposition political parties in Cuba or the emulation of the Soviet Union's glasnost-perestroika reforms.

"I will say here, once and for all, we only need one party," Castro said during a three-hour speech to a rally of 100,000 in the main plaza of Santiago commemorating the anniversary of the Castro-led attack July 26, 1953, against the Moncada army barracks.

http://www.christusrex.org/www2/fcf/castro.noglasnost.html




"Cuban law tightly restricts the freedoms of speech, association, assembly, press, and movement. In an extraordinary June 1998 statement, Cuban Justice Minister Roberto Díaz Sotolongo justified Cuba's restrictions on dissent by explaining that, as Spain had instituted laws to protect the monarch from criticism, Cuba was justified in protecting Fidel Castro from criticism, since he served a similar function as Cuba's "king.""

"Cuban legislation undercuts the right to a fair trial by allowing the country's highest political authorities to control the courts and prosecutors, granting broad authority for warrantless arrests and pretrial detentions, and restricting the right to a defense. Unfortunately, Cuban courts have failed to observe the few due process rights available to defendants under the law."


"Cuba routinely bars international media and human rights investigators access to the country in an effort to avoid negative publicity. In an October 1998 interview, President Castro explained the conditions under which he would grant visas to reporters with U.S. news bureaus: "If I were certain objective reporters would come to Cuba and not be biased beforehand, we would...." Cuba's restrictions on press coverage and human rights reporting are among the most severe in the Western Hemisphere. "

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/Cuba996-01.htm

[geek tragedy]

46. Human Rights Watch is a tool of the imperialists, comrade.

As is anyone who wants multiparty elections in Cuba.

[rinsd]

47. Correction: HRW and AI are only tools of the imperialists

when they criticize Catro's or Chavez's governments.

[ronnie624]

64. Correction:

HRW and AI accept corporate donations which is a conflict of interest in my opinion, therefore their "reports" are useless to me. I prefer to do my own research and make up my own mind and as far as I can tell Cuba is by far one of the least offensive of countries in terms of human rights. The United States is obviously one of the worst offenders which is why I find the obsession with Castro by the Cuba haters so curious.

[rinsd]

73. How exactly do your own research?

Do you visit the countries? How exactly do you gather data about human rights abuses?

"HRW and AI accept corporate donations which is a conflict of interest in my opinion, therefore their "reports" are useless to me."

Man you have the script donw pat. An extra schilling for you this week.

"as far as I can tell Cuba is by far one of the least offensive of countries in terms of human rights"

The you're simply ignorant, willfully or otherwise. While I'm not a big fan, I don't see Cuba as some gulag. But you seem to be categorizing them as some sort of beacon of human rights.

"HRW and AI accept corporate donations which is a conflict of interest in my opinion"

LOL, because the state media disseminated thru left wing channels has no conflict of interest?

"The United States is obviously one of the worst offenders which is why I find the obsession with Castro by the Cuba haters so curious. "

I love it when lefties unconsciously adopt the language of right wingers in terms of demonization. The irony is quite amusing.

[manic expression]

55. Not really

but HRW and AI are both quite mistaken in regard to Cuba. They hear of 75 people imprisoned and assume that it is because of political reasons, when it is actually because they illegally took money from the US, an aggressive foreign power (a crime in practically every country). They are not bad organizations, but they are completely wrong when it comes to Cuba, and unfortunately, that does aid imperialist aims.

"If you tremble indignity at every injustice then you are a comrade of mine"
-Che

[Bacchus39]

69. do you speak Spanish or just a Che wannabe?

Artículo 5.- El Partido Comunista de Cuba, martiano y marxista- leninista, vanguardia organizada de la nación cubana, es la fuerza dirigente superior de la sociedad y del Estado, que organiza y orienta los esfuerzos comunes hacia los altos fines de la construcción del socialismo y el avance hacia la sociedad comunista.

[manic expression]

54. Interesting

The Cuban Constitution also guarantees freedom of speech, but you just felt like leaving that out, didn't you?

Again, parties are not involved in the Cuban electoral process. Candidates are nominated by the people in open, public meetings.

"President Fidel Castro is trying to stifle a debate within the government and society about the wisdom of opening up the Cuban political system to satisfy an evolving dissident human rights movement."

What's this, then?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4275513.stm

Face it. Cuba is very much open to free debate, and there is a great amount of free speech in Cuba. The problem is when "dissidents" take US money in an effort to destabilize the country and destroy its achievements.

Also, the media is allowed access into Cuba regularly. If they barred journalists, how do you explain the fact that Ed Vulliamy (completely anti-Castro reactionary), among others, gets there?

[Bacchus39]

72. you are not worth the time it takes to post

if Cuba had freedom of speech there would be other political parties, news outlets besides the state run propaganda papers, television programming besides state approved, easy access to the internet, opposition organization, freedom to protest, freedom to travel outside of the country without an exit permit, etcetera ad nauseum.

[geek tragedy]

44. What a bunch of b.s.

"Sure, there are plenty of anti-Castro Communists."

Baloney. Just like there are a ton of anti-Bush Republicans.

One-party rule is not democracy.

[Mika]

52. Making up fake quotes I see.

"Sure, there are plenty of anti-Castro Communists."


You replied to my post. Where did you get that quote from? I see it nowhere else. It certainly wasn't a quote from me.

You are just making shit up.

You make up a fake quote and then answer it as if it came from me? Is that a technique you learned from watching Rummy on teevee?

Pathetic. :crazy:

[ronnie624]

66. What else can one possibly expect

but fake quotes, illogical slurs and the posting of links to websites that literally damage their own arguments (apparently hoping no one will click on their links). I have read hundreds of thousands of posts on DU, and the Casrtro haters are always an excellent source for amusement.

[rinsd]

75. self delete

[rinsd]

74. self delete

[manic expression]

30. Funny...

The Cuban electoral process doesn't involve parties. Candidates are nominated by the people in open and public meetings, not by parties.

Oh, and care to explain this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm

[Mika]

53. I notice that the Castro cultists/obsessors ignore your link.

Too busy calling the DUers who have actually been to Cuba and seen for themselves "Castro lovers" & "supporters of Castro", or some such obsession with Castro.

[DeepModem Mom]

6. I agree, Smitty. Regimes in Cuba, China and elsewhere...

where freedom is severely limited, IMO, are not excused because our own country's behavior is not exemplary.

[Bridget Burke]

26. But the US refuses to trade with Cuba....

And it supports those who want to overthrow Castro.

Why is it OK to be "best friends" with China? Remember Tienanmin Square?

[DeepModem Mom]

27. I agree. It's not okay at all, IMO, to be best friends with China.

(I know I have a contrarian view on all this, here at DU.)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

7. He doesn't hold a candle to Herr Busch in terms of being a.....

...dictator. Maybe we should try resolving our own problems before attempting to force other countries to resolve their issues.

Just curious, but if Castro is the terrible man that our media has painted him to be, why hasn't he been overthrown sometime during the last 47 years?

[rayofreason]

39. "...why hasn't he been overthrown...?"

Because he has an effective police state that limits alternatives from being openly discussed and cracks down hard on those who try.

The Soviet Union lasted longer than Castro. On paper, the USSR had a very democratic constitution, with all kinds of rights to free speech, assembly, etc. The reality was quite different. That constitution was in force when Stalin imprisoned and murdered millions (including relatives of close friends of mine), it was also in force decades later when Andrei Saharov was harrassed and muzzled, and when Yuri Orlov and Natan Sharansky (among so many) were sent to the Gulag. Any polititian (or ordinary citizen for that matter) who openly opposes Castro and called for his ouster and the creation of a very different form of government and social organization (market economy anyone?) will find themselves in deep trouble, under arrest or worse. Only fools or apoloigists for dictators believe that people in Cuba are free to advocate for a significant change in government or society. Even taking the wrong kind of photo can land you in trouble.

http://www.ceskenoviny.cz/news/index_view.php?id=174963


Contrast that with the West, where on a daily basis many (especially here on the DU) call for doing away with Capitalism, or the removal of a leadership in a country (any country, any leader, for that matter). How many of you self-proclaimed Socialists and/or Marxists have been arrested? Why is the DU not shut down? Anyone heard of police arresting folks for taking pictures of slums?

Try opening a DU in Cuba, or for that matter setting up any independent web server or even an ISP outside of government control. And why is it that a banner with "Abajo Castro" at a sporting event becomes an "international incident"? Could it be that the Cuban state tries to control all the information that it can and only state sponsored media organs are to be allowed where control can be exercised? What does that tell us about the quality of "press freedom" Cuba? It reminds me of the old Russian joke about the two main newspapers during Soviet times "V Pravdi nyet izvyestia, y v Izvyesti nyet pravdi" - In Truth (Pravda) there is no news, and in News (Izvyestia) there is no truth. I suspect that Cubans quietly tell similar jokes, but only to trusted friends.

[Mika]

40. Hogwash

I suspect that if DU was advocating the overthrow of the government in the USA by any means necessary (and had connections to the declared & terrorist enemies of the US gov) then it would be “regulated” by the government.

But DU doesn’t advocate the overthrow of the government in the USA by any means necessary because it is regulated by the mods and admins.

The same goes with political websites and legitimate domestic parties in Cuba.


--

Oh.. and the Abajo Castro sign violated the regulations of the baseball tournament organizers who banned ALL political messages and signs.

Only Castro cultists would insist that Castro created the regulations of the baseball tournament.

[rayofreason]

42. Hogwash???

So much to comment on, but let's just look at a couple of things since I am too busy to engage in a long discussion today, and I know that you are a staunch advocate of and apologist for the Cuban dictatorship.

Out of a population of 11.5 million there are no pro-market people who wish create a public advocacy group in favor of a market-based economy, except for all those evil folks who are in league with "declared enemies and terrorists" who should be rounded up anyway. Or maybe, by definition, anyone opposed to the Castro regime is a tool of "declared enemies and terrorists" who should be rounded up anyway. And maybe that Czech model who took unauthorized pictures of poverty (In a socialist state? Impossible!!!) is another agent of "declared enemies and terrorists" so putting her in jail and confiscating her camera is justified.

Seems to me that your hog is quite well lathered.

[geek tragedy]

45. Straight out of the Stalinist playbook.

Anyone who questions the party's supremacy is a traitor working against the people of the Soviet, er, the People's Republic, er, our Dear Leader, er, the Cuban People!!

[Mika]

50. Maybe you should read some links and do a little research also.

There are several prominent Cuban opposition leaders, like Oswaldo Paya and Elizardo Sanchez for example, who condemn US interference and funding of "dissidents" in Cuba because it undermines the legitimate domestic opposition.

There have been posts in previous threads put up just for you, but it seems that you choose to ignore them, preferring instead to post uninformed effluvium.

[Mika]

49. Point out just where I have said that?

Posted by rayofreason-->"Out of a population of 11.5 million there are no pro-market people who wish create a public advocacy group in favor of a market-based economy, except for all those evil folks who are in league with "declared enemies and terrorists" who should be rounded up anyway. Or maybe, by definition, anyone opposed to the Castro regime is a tool of "declared enemies and terrorists" who should be rounded up anyway."

-


Your reactionary extremist post is way over the top. I said no such thing.

Sure there are pro market proponents in Cuba. Cuba has an small but growing private market sector. Maybe you should read a couple of the links I posted on Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo and Oswaldo Paya. They and their political parties both advocate a "free market" economic system. They are free to espouse it as part of their party platform as long as their political parties are not funded by a foreign state or its agents.

To deny that Cuba has been targeted by the US, by both overt and covert attacks and by extra territorial sanctions that have been overwhelmingly condemned by the UN for decades, is akin to denying that water is wet.

The Czech model? LOL. Cuba is not "the Czech model".

Having actually been to Cuba, unlike so many of the DU Cuba "experts", I can say that one is free to use a camera however one chooses to (except at a military base, which is usual for any country).



--


Posted by rayofreason-->"Or maybe, by definition, anyone opposed to the Castro regime is a tool of "declared enemies and terrorists" who should be rounded up anyway"



Maybe you need to be reminded that the persons rounded up and thrown in gulags in Cuba were rounded up by the US government and put in the US gulags in Guantanamo for "rendering" and torture.

The US and its citizens are in no position to criticize Cuba until they clean up their own back yard. Unless hypocrisy is the rule.

[rayofreason]

56. "Czech model"...

The phrase was literal, not metaphorical.

The Czech model in question is a young woman, Helena Houdova, who was arrested for taking pictures of slums. Her story is here (as linked to in my original post) - http://www.ceskenoviny.cz/news/index_view.php?id=174963

More detail can be found here - http://www.praguepost.com/P03/2006/Art/0216/tempo1.php

Just one snippet from the article -

"The girls were arrested because they deliberately waged a campaign against Cuba in cooperation with Cuban dissidents," Aymee Hernandez, Cuba's chargé d'affaires in Prague, told reporters.

And what was that "deliberately waged a campaign against Cuba"? Taking pictures of slums. Now I am LOL.

Speaking of LOL, I have had quite a few chuckles when I read you post that Castro is not a dictator, that he does not rule Cuba, and that political freedom is the norm with anyone able to form a political party in opposition to the government, no problem. What a hoot!!! Fortunately I see plenty of posts on the DU indicating that I am not the only one laughing.

I hope that you are still on the DU when that charsimatic bastard kicks the bucket and the whole state personality cult that he has held together comes apart at the seams the way the Soviet Union cracked once people felt it was safe not to believe in the "infallible party". I wonder what you will say then? But don't worry - there might still be some Stalinist SOBs left in a few dark corners. After all, the Workers World Party found Milosevic and Saddam to support.

[manic expression]

59. Please

To be a dictator, one must have dictatorial power. Castro does not. To be a dictator, one must not be subject to elections. Castro is. Oops.

Oh, and there's more to the Cuban government than Castro. The Cuban Assembly, elected by the Cuban people, holds most of the power in Cuba.

Political freedom is the norm in Cuba. Ask Oswaldo Paya:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4275513.stm

Or ask these people:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm

In anticipation of you ignoring those articles, there is a great amount of freedom in Cuba. I have talked to people who have been there, and they concur that Cubans are not afraid of speaking their mind at all. Cubans can access US news stations with the use of a simple radio. In terms of representation, Cuba is far ahead of many "developed" nations, as it costs no money to run for office, and NO parties are involved in the electoral process. If you knew the first thing about Cuba's political system instead of myths, lies and propaganda, you'd agree. Keep laughing, but know that you are completely delusional in your misled giggles.

Stalinist? Funny you should use that reactionary rhetoric.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/cuba/story/0,,718287,00.html

[rayofreason]

61. Love the links...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm contains lines like

"Ms Roque said the rally - held in a garden outside one of the organisers' homes - was the first open opposition meeting in 46 years of Communist rule"

and

"Although Mr Cason attended on Friday, Cuban authorities acted to prevent other foreigners reaching the venue. Czech Senator Karel Schwarzenberg and German MP Arnold Vaatz had been seized by police and driven to Havana airport on Thursday. The European Commission described the expulsions as unacceptable."

And in http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4275513.stm we find gems like

"Mr Paya attracted international attention three years ago, when he organised a petition for democratic reform, known as the Varela Project, that was signed by thousands of Cubans. Many of the 75 dissidents arrested and sentenced to long prison terms in a crackdown in March 2003 were volunteers working on the project. Fourteen have since been freed."

Boy, what a strong case for political freedom in Cuba. Hoist by your own petard, I would say.

[Mika]

63. Never mind that they filed false entry claims.

They entered Cuba on tourism visas, when they were visiting as foreign agents working for the Czech government.

Even the US requires a foreign agent to register their purpose when entering the US.

[rayofreason]

65. Oh yeah...

I forgot about all of those foreigners who did not register as foreign agents and so who got arrested and expelled for attending anti-war demonstrations in the US, not to mention all of the foreign journalists where detained so they could not report on the demonstrations. Boy, newspapers like the NYT and the SF Chronicle sure did a great job covering for the government to make sure that nobody ever heard of such things. I bet Bush is glad that the papers are on his side. But they couldn't stop the BBC from printing this (courtesy of manic expression) "And at least two journalists, from Poland and Italy, were detained by the Cuban authorities ahead of the meeting." Oops. My bad. Wrong repressive apparatus!

Your pretzel logic is making you look silly. There are plenty of folks on the DU who have no use for authoritarianism of any stripe. Trying to make the Cuban version bright and shiny by excusing and rationalizing repression just won't work. At least not with the majority of folks, and that is what counts.

[Mika]

67. Do you think foreign journalists enter the US saying they're tourists?

So it appears that you think that anyone can enter the US saying that they are here on pleasure trips as tourists. Or anywhere else one travels to.

I guess that you haven't traveled anywhere. Your ignorance regarding travel procedures to foreign countries is astonishing (considering the absolutisms in your post).

When a foreigner enters the US they are asked 'are you here on business or pleasure'. The entry permit & duration is based on the answer and documentation. Someone working for a foreign entity entering a different country is known as an 'agent' of the company they are working for.

That includes foreign journalists entering the US.

If they claim to be here as tourists on a pleasure trip but they are really working on assignment (on a business trip) they are in violation of the law.

Cuba doesn't routinely deny all reporters entry visas, but it does deny some from the US (like the vociferously anti Cuba papers like El Herald/Miami Herald - who need to apply in advance to work in Cuba). It is their right to do so. Just as it is the right of the US to deny entry to foreign journalists it chooses to.

The rest of your extremist reactionary post about US domestic reporters reporting on domestic events appears to be just babble. (Wow.. talk about pretzel logic) :crazy:

[Mika]

68. Do you think foreign journalists vist the US saying they're tourists?

So it appears that you think that anyone can enter the US saying that they are here on pleasure trips as tourists. Or anywhere else one travels to.

I guess that you haven't traveled anywhere. Your ignorance regarding travel procedures to foreign countries is obvious.

When a foreigner enters the US they are asked 'are you here on business or pleasure'. The entry permit & duration is based on the answer and documentation. Someone working for a foreign entity entering a different country is known as an 'agent' of the company they are working for.

That includes foreign journalists entering the US.

If they claim to be here as tourists on a pleasure trip but they are really working on assignment (on a business trip) they are in violation of the law.

Cuba doesn't routinely deny all reporters entry visas, but it does deny some from the US (like the vociferously anti Cuba papers like El Herald/Miami Herald - who need to apply in advance to work in Cuba). It is their right to do so. Just as it is the right of the US to deny entry to foreign journalists it chooses to.

The rest of your extremist reactionary post about US domestic reporters reporting on domestic events appears to be just babble. (Wow.. talk about pretzel logic) :crazy:

[Mika]

71. Sorry. Post #68 is a DU glitch dupe post.

Post #67 is the intended post.

[rinsd]

48. Let's get the full picture.....

" Abajo Castro sign violated the regulations of the baseball tournament organizers who banned ALL political messages and signs."

Not the during intital incident, the ban came later. And why did they do that? It was based on an agreement with the Cuban government.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/03/10/wbc.cuba.ap/

"The Cuban Baseball Federation, in a statement released Friday in San Juan, said authorities failed to provide security and preserve the spirit of the sporting event. The Cubans nonetheless decided to remain in the tournament after Puerto Rican promoters made guarantees, the federation said in a statement without elaborating.

http://www.localnewsleader.com/kindred/stories/index.php?action=fullnews&id=156068

"SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico - Security workers confiscated posters from fans at the World Baseball Classic on Friday, the day after an anti-Castro sign appeared in the stands of a Cuba-Netherlands game, provoking an international incident.

Local organizers of the tournament responded Friday by banning posters of a political nature. Private security officials confiscated all posters from spectators entering Hiram Bithorn Stadium for the Cuba-Puerto Rico game, including one showing a Puerto Rican player hitting a baseball that bore the image of Fidel Castro ‘s head. "

Castro's government is almost as insecure as Bush's.

[Mika]

51. So, the Castro cultists DO think that FC made the rules for the tournament

Bwahahahaha.

[rayofreason]

58. Thank God...

....no one had a Castro CARTOONS!!!!

As Bugs Bunny might say "What a bunch of ultra maroons".

[Mika]

60. Castro Castro Castro.

Wow. And your ilk accuse those of us who support Cuba's sovereignty "Castro cultists".

Almost everything you post is about Castro.

What will you guys do when old Fidel does kick the bucket? Who will you obsess on then?


Maybe Chavez will fulfill the need for your cultish obsessions.

[ronnie624]

12. Twaddle.

"He's a dictator, period."

Simplistic and easy to remember. How unfortunate for you that reality is much more complex. This means you have much reading to do, but you're in luck. From this website you can access many links to reliable sources of information about Cuba. Perhaps you can avail yourself of this information.

For one who observes there is always something to be learned. Better get started!

[TomClash]

15. This is quite true.

It is certainly much more complex than a bad sound bite.

[manic expression]

29. Right...

a dictator, with limited power, who holds office after being elected in a fair election. A REAL dictator. :eyes:

[bemildred]

3. The dog and pony show continues.

Personally I think they would have done better to fine them the amount of the American "assistance" and let them go. But it's not for me to tell the Cubans how to run their country. US posturing about free speech and human rights is pretty funny though.

[TomClash]

9. Except

"there is assuredly freedom of speech" is not quite true. There are three state run newspapers. No foreign newspapers are allowed. There are no independent newspapers. Internet access and use is restricted to trusted party functionaries and government officials. But they get 2 HBO movie channels.

That said, it is as plain as day that the embargo should be lifted and efforts to destabilize Cuba halted.

[Judi Lynn]

10. Sorry, foreign newspapers are read in Cuba. Cubans are very aware

of American and world events, publications, even the names of various American and other countries' newspaper columnists, as per a conversation recorded by a DU'er here, after one of multiple trips to Cuba.

Another DU'er personally helped a Cuban friend of his install a dish at his house IN CUBA.

Cubans recieve American tv stations from the States with their own antennas, just as you would be able to receive Miami tv stations if you drove 100 miles NORTH of Miami and watched Miami tv from someone's house there. I used to visit my relatives in a small town 100 miles from the larger city where I live a long time ago, and watched my city's stations on their tv waaaay back then.

They also pick up tv stations and radio stations from throughout the Caribbean, Mexico, etc. run, obviously, by other points of view.

Another DU'er, a Canadian, informed us that you can pick up American radio stations on a simple walkman in Cuba.

As for computers, Pastors for Peace, an American organization, collects computers, and medicine, and medical equipment, and school supplies, and bicycles, and other things and takes them to Cuba annually, where they are used by NON-GOVERNMENT non-functionaries. You can find a lot about them from doing a search.



http://www.goshen.edu/sst/cuba02/



http://www.tecschange.org/caravan/packing_photos.html

[TomClash]

13. Really?

Tell me where foreign newspapers are sold in Cuba.

I wrote they did not commonly have internet access. I did not state that Cubans did not have computers.

You can watch American TV if it's not jammed. I am told by current and former Cuban Gvoernment officials that they do not get Miami TV - they get HBO via satellite and the three Cuban channels. Maybe they are wrong. But I would think they would proudly state that they get Miami TV if they allowed it.

[Judi Lynn]

14. Maybe a DU'er who has been to Cuba will see your post and answer

your questions. I know you'd like to see the truth written here above all else.

The station you're thinking which gets jammed is the US-taxpayer funded, Miami Cuban-"exile" programmed and staffed TV Marti, and Radio Marti. As they are straight propaganda, the tv station gets jammed.

Apparently you've never heard of DEMOCRATIC Congressman David Skagg's attempt to cut funding on TV Marti. Here's a reference to that odd event:

7/1/93 After having funds for Radio and TV Marti deleted in a closed mark-up session, the House Appropriations Committee restores funds for Radio Marti but not TV Marti (CAC, 6/22/93; CM, 6/25/93; MH, 6/25/93). Rep. Diaz-Balart succeeds in cutting $23 million from the National Institute of Standards and Technology in an effort to repay Rep. David Skaggs (D-CO) for cutting $17.5 million from Radio and TV Marti. Rep. Skaggs complains, "I was greatly disturbed and saddened that the normal business of this House was subject to these retributive tactics. This is an example of how difficult it is to pull the plug on a program, even one as ineffective as this one." Skaggs believes the programs are unnecessary because Cubans are able to view commercial broadcasts from Florida. (MH, 7/3/93)

http://cuban-exile.com/doc_126-150/doc0146b.html

[TomClash]

17. Please don't be sarcastic

I'd actually like to be wrong on these issues.

Your quotes are from 1993 - the Special Period - when I think things were opening up. I'm not so sure about now.

[Judi Lynn]

18. Well, our best bet is Cuba-travelling DU'ers will see your posts

and cough up any information they've got.

There are quite a few more than you'd expect here.

On edit:

Adding photo I found:



Another edit:

I just remembered hearing one of my state's Congressmen, either Senator Pat Roberts (Republican), or Rep. Dennis Moore (Democrat), both of whome have made multiple trips to Cuba in the interest of normalizing relations with the island, has related that he met someone on the street in Cuba, spoke with the man, and was absolutely floored to learn the man knew exactly what was going on in our Congress at that moment. He said the man was completely informed on American politics.

[TomClash]

19. I'm pretty sure Granma is a Cuban government approved paper

Your congressmen's encounter is not unusual.

[Bacchus39]

25. yeah Granma is the main government propaganda newspaper

still waiting to here why there is restriction of media, broadcasts, and internet access in the first place.

"It is true that whenever a new law comes into effect here, Cubans - who are famed for their inventiveness - tend to find a way around it."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3425425.stm

[Mika]

31. Location and money are the main reasons.

Here's an old DU thread that exposes the media propaganda used against Cuba.

Read the progression of the thread (there is some wading thru the posts by the usual DU Cubaphobes accusing others of being Marxists and Castro lovers etc, but the actuality comes to the fore)..

-Cuba Cracks Down On Web Access-
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=306816


Turns out that the "restriction" and "crackdown" is on the black market internet accounts sold to Cubans at exorbitant prices by Miamicuban exiles and others, there are a handful of internet providers in Cuba.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/09/tech/main592416.shtml

E-net is the largest of a handful of Internet providers in Cuba ..
-
E-net customers who do not have the dollar phone service can keep accessing the Internet with the ordinary phone service with special cards sold at Etecsa offices

As long as one can afford it, just like the USA, one can have home access to the internet in Cuba. Otherwise, in Cuba, one has to go to the library for free internet.

[Bacchus39]

32. so why the media restriction in the first place??

again, Cubans wouldn't have to go to the black market or access the internet "illegally" and pay exorbitant prices if access to the internet were permitted by the government. what is the purpose of the government restriction on internet access in the first place? any ideas?

"Most Cubans do not have authorized access to the World Wide Web, although many can access international e-mail and a more limited government-controlled intranet at government jobs and schools.

Some physicians and key government officials are among the few Cubans authorized to use the Internet from home. According to the new law, those Cubans authorized to use the Internet must now seek additional approval to use the service on the nation's regular phone service, which is charged in Cuban pesos.

The decree passed late last year states that Internet service, already heavily controlled by the communist government, can be used only with a more expensive telephone service charged in U.S. dollars. The dollar service is prohibited to most Cubans and is typically used by foreign firms and individuals."



authorized to use the internet from home?? you have got to be kidding me.

[Mika]

33. Limited resources and connections.

Cuba has limited connections to the backbone of the www. Partially due to the Helms-Burton law.

Connections are prioritized to health care, education, and government use. The decree you mention is the so called crackdown on black market accounts that crowd out and slow Cuba's limited www access.


Cubans can go to the library and use the internet there, or pay (pesos) to use internet kiosks. A reason that Cubans don't have home internet access is because it is expensive. All Cubans have free internet and email access at their local library or CDC office.




Edit: added the word "home" for clarification.

[Bacchus39]

37. content is restricted too

I'll stick to my highspeed non-censored non-governmental "authorized" access.

you can, and will of course, continue to defend the Castro dictatorship's oppression.

[manic expression]

57. When it comes to media access

Cuba is far from oppressive. You can easily listen to US news from a simple radio (that is a fact), something that is available to many Cubans. The Cuban government, IIRC, CAN jam frequencies, but chooses NOT TO do so with news stations. As others have pointed out, a wide variety of newspapers, many of them from the US, are available to Cubans as well. And you continue with utterly false claims that Cubans have no access to any news sources?

So much for "Castro's dictatorship's oppression". :eyes:

[Mika]

62. The Castro cultists/obsessors are self oppressed.

They choose not to read anything that refutes their claims.

For the Castro obsessed DUers, never having been to Cuba makes them Cuba "experts".

[Bacchus39]

70. internet, print media, television programming restricted

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuba/cuba-internet.htm

why does Cuba restrict access in the first place??? Can you Castrophiles even answer a question?

freedom in Cuba reiterated:

Dishes serve entire families and extension lines sometimes connect them to neighbors. Taped programs renting for about 25 cents reach a still larger audience.

The government is determined to confine Cubans to the state broadcasting system, where Thursday night's 90-minute discussion show was devoted to "Cuba confronting the fascist policies of Bush."

Few Cubans will talk openly about the dishes: They're strictly banned for homes, and police sometimes raid them to confiscate antennas and fine their owners.

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/05/17/Worldandnation/Satellite_TV_s_war_on.shtml




again, why?

http://www.hrw.org/wr2k3/americas5.html

Carter drew attention to some of the country's most serious human rights problems. A one-party state, Cuba restricted nearly all avenues of political dissent. Although the criminal prosecution of opposition figures was becoming increasingly rare, prison remained a plausible threat to Cubans considering nonviolent political dissent. The government also frequently silenced its critics by using short-term detentions, house arrests, travel restrictions, threats, surveillance, politically-motivated dismissals from employment, and other forms of harassment.

Cuba's legal and institutional structures were at the root of rights violations. The rights to freedom of expression, association, assembly, movement, and the press were strictly limited under Cuban law. By criminalizing enemy propaganda, the spreading of "unauthorized news," and insult to patriotic symbols, the government curbed freedom of speech under the guise of protecting state security. The government also imprisoned or ordered the surveillance of individuals who had committed no illegal act, relying upon laws penalizing "dangerousness" (estado peligroso) and allowing for "official warning" (advertencia oficial). The government-controlled courts undermined the right to fair trial by restricting the right to a defense, and frequently failed to observe the few due process rights available to defendants under domestic law.

[Mika]

21. Foreign newspapers are sold at news stands, and are available to read at..

.. the local libraries and CDR offices.

Cubans are not information isolated as many Americans seem to think. I was suprised on my first visit to see this.

I've been to Cuba many times and I have watched S Florida TV stations there, both english and spanish stations. Some come in as clear as a bell in northern Cuba. Also stations from Mexico, Jamaica & DR.

[Mika]

22. "The embargo should be lifted and efforts to destabilize Cuba halted."

Agreed 100% TomC. :thumbsup:


There are hundreds of local and provincial newspapers/mags that are available across Cuba. From serious political, agricultural, sports, educational, telenovela gossip rags and such. Some are created by local elected groups and parties, some are commercial endeavors.

[robcon]

35. Any Cuban reading an opposition mag would be detained.

Any Cuban writing an opposition mag would spend 1-2 years in prison.

You conveniently "forgot" to mention that the Cuban people cannot obtain those foreign newspaper/mags. Only tourists can see foreign publications.

How VERY convenient your memory is Mika.

[Mika]

36. Sorry, not true.

That's not what I saw. But I shouldn't believe my lying eyes.

For example, the Cuban Christian Democratic Party (an opposition party) publishes newsletters almost every month. They are available to anyone who wants one.

__

Actually, its the US that is cracking down on legitimate opposition movements IN Cuba..
http://english.epochtimes.com/news/5-2-8/26348.html

.. and actually hindering the domestic movements by interfering (according to leaders of some of Cuba's legitimate domestic opposition parties)..
http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/cuba/1874.html
____


Foreign newspapers are for sale at the peso shops and are available to read for free at the libraries.

Your claim that only tourists can see foreign publications is laughable wallowing in ignorance.


I know its inconvenient for your exclaimations to be challenged, but.. I've been there. Seen it.

[maddezmom]

76. locking

Flamefest of circular arguments on both sides and event is no longer latest breaking news.