Homophobia seeps across new EU (Guardian)

[mogster]

Homophobia seeps across new EU

Daniel McLaughlin in Warsaw
Sunday March 12, 2006

He has been attacked by skinheads and threatened by police, and Szymon Niemiec sees life in Poland getting even tougher. 'For gays and lesbians, today's Poland is like 1930s Germany,' he says. 'We are ruled by a fascist party, which uses the same language and ideas as Hitler.'
As a prominent gay rights campaigner, Niemiec, 25, has long been a target for extremist groups, but since the election of the Law and Justice party last November he has felt a new wave of prejudice coursing through deeply Catholic, conservative Poland.
(...)
But many see a dark side to the party's 'moral revolution' and the rhetoric of other social conservatives challenging for power across central Europe.

Human Rights Watch has accused President Lech Kaczynski of presiding over 'official homophobia' in Poland - as mayor of Warsaw he banned gay parades and said he was 'not willing to meet perverts' when asked to talk to its organisers.

His twin brother, Jaroslaw, the leader of PiS, has said gay people should not teach in schools, while Prime Minister Kazimierz Marcinkiewicz has called homosexuality an 'unnatural' thing that the state must prevent from 'infecting' the general public.

More:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1728983,00.html
-----------------------

Thoroughly unsound development...

[Placebo]

1. Fascism on the rise across the globe?

All signs point to 'YES'.

[neweurope]

8. Yes. Everywhere. Supported and often paid for by the USA.

We are just some years behind you.

I'm afraid. In Germany we have high ranking politicians who are openly gay. My best friend is gay - living with a muslim, too - and thinks the country could never regress. Crap. There were gay bars in Berlin in the twenties, and then Hitler came. The gays were sent to concentration camps with a pink triangle on their striped suits...

I fear for my friends and for all of us.

------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Solon]

18. I heard that in the '20s, Berlin was one of the most progressive cities...

in all of Europe, it was hailed as a haven for Gays, Lesbians, and even Jews, much to the sorry of many. I really hope this Scourge in Poland doesn't spread to Germany again.

[neweurope]

20. And so do I, but I fear it will. And to the rest of Europe, too.

The baltic states aren't much better than Poland. All those new eastern members of EU will make things hell. All of them, by the way, just adore the USA. Which pays them.

:cry:

---------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[David__77]

2. Poland needs a political revolution.

They'll remain mired in feudalism until it happens.

[mitchtv]

4. they need another"dismemberment"

half to Germany, half to Russia. Austria Hungary didn't make the party this time.

[Spinoza]

41. A Russian/German (Hitler/Stalin) style "dismemberment"?

Your joking, right?

[genie_weenie]

45. Yikes that's a mite insensitive

Poles suffered pretty mightily after the partitions.

[mitchtv]

53. half joking, they mistreat Gays andthey expect what from us?

Sympathy??

[mitchtv]

54. I'm, insensitive? fuck them and the oxcart they rode in on

that goes for Latvia and the other hateful scumbags over there

[Zhade]

55. Keep in mind that your idea would result in innocent people suffering.

Including our fellow Polish queers, I might add.

[mitchtv]

57. that would be a net draw for the gays

they suffer now from Catholic tyranny. They'd be better off in Germany and or Russia

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. 'Feudalism'? I think we've got to use the right words

Feudalism is a system in which the nobility have to provide a certain amount of soldiers to a central monarch, for which they have they have people who are bound to them (by threat of violence). Bad though the prospects for gays in Poland are, it's not feudalism, nor is feudalism particularly tied to discrimination againsts gays.

It's bigotry, it's anti-homosexuality, it's discrimination, it's conservatism, but it's not feudalism.

[anitar1]

65. Aren't isn't the U.S building bases in that region? n/t

[IndianaGreen]

3. Gays and women were better off under the Communists

Now abortion is banned and gays are persecuted in the new "free" Poland.

The Cold War was a total pack of lies and a sham to frighten us into allowing the military-industrial establishment to take over our country, and others as well.

[David__77]

6. Absolutely true.

In Poland, there is no liberal democracy. It seems their choice is dictatorship of the left or the right. I would prefer Castro to Pinochet any day.

[Endangered Specie]

23. Bull shit

They were just treated as BADLY as everyone else, no one is better off under Communism.

(if you believe that, they have room in North Korea)

[rpannier]

25. Actually you're right

Homosexuality was a crime in the Soviet Union. It is a crime in China today.

[IndianaGreen]

29. The OP is about Poland

but if you want to bring another country up, the German Democratic Republic (East Germany to you) had a ban on discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation in its own Constitution, it also guaranteed abortion rights. Both rights were seriously infringed when the "free" West Germany absorbed the DDR.

As to China, there is nothing Communist about that country other than the name and the props they use on parade. They are a single-party authoritarian capitalist government.

[Endangered Specie]

30. Oh yea, life was GREAT in the GDR...

thats why they had to erect a wall and shoot people to try and keep them from leaving.


:eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

35. I suggest you go to Germany and find out what the former DDR

citizens say about their lives, their jobs, and their social net since they became part of the new Germany.

[Endangered Specie]

42. Alright... I'll start by asking Peter Fechter.

[rpannier]

32. I read his point to refer to Communism in general.

Hence his point about North Korea.
Most Communist countries in Eastern Europe discriminated heavily against homosexuals.

As to China...the Party has always discriminated against homosexuals. So the lecture on what China is now is irrelevant.

[Spinoza]

43. "As to China,

there is nothing Communist about that country other than the name and the props they use on parade. They are a single-party authoritarian capitalist government."

True enough, but homosexuality was a capital (death penalty) offense In Mao’s (communist) China. There is no dispute among historians over Communist Chinas treatment of homosexuals during Mao's reign (1948-1976.) Bao Ruo-wang’s 'Prisoner of Mao' includes a grisly account of a homosexual being executed solely for the 'crime' of homosexuality.

[IndianaGreen]

26. Excuse me, it was your precious Solidarity that wanted abortion banned

Keep drinking that Cold War Kool-Aid!

[Endangered Specie]

28. Um.. I'm pro-choice...

try again.

lets also talk about the PRC and forced abortions

[IndianaGreen]

31. China is not Communist, and their despicable abortion policies

are no different from the killing of girls in other countries such as India because of the low cultural value some societies have of females.

It is a global problem!

Shall we discuss sex slavery in Thailand?

[Endangered Specie]

44. Alright then...

which countries 'are' communist?


Let me guess, there aren't any, they keep trying but everytime someone comes along and slaughters a fair percentage of the population? :sarcasm:

[Tigress DEM]

27. Well, if you are NOT the target ALL the time, the reprieve might be

noticeable at any rate.

[mondo joe]

51. Specifically how were gays better off?

Thank you.

[The Taxman]

61. Better off under the Communists...

That's a hoot!

[CatholicEdHead]

5. Poland is a deeply Catholic country

From the artice:
"These are Catholic fundamentalists,' says Tomasz Szypula, of Poland's Campaign Against Homophobia. 'One of the first things they did after taking power was abolish the government office for gender equality, which dealt with all forms of prejudice here.'"

The Vatican is encouraging this with recent annoucements. :( Just like they are doing here but Poland has been historically more conserative so each pronouncement goes much farther. Many of these announcements is to deflect blame from the hirerarchy's policies and worldwide sex scandels. While many of the laity internationally are more moderate, it does not easily move up the food chain of church politics anymore.

I am saddened but not suprised that this is happening.

[mogster]

11. Seems that Polish JPII was a liberal pope

And now his influence are gone?

This story may be related to old Church ways, but the evangelicals are no better. In my country (and the rest of Scandinavia), they're revving up their rethoric against the gay communities, and has been doing so for the last five years.
Of course inspired by the US Xtians, they're pretty close in 'ideology' and also the way they use politics in combination with religion.

It's a strong wind from the right these days.

[CatholicEdHead]

13. He was a moderate conservative at best

I would not call him "liberal". While he varied by issue to issue he did help push the "new tradionalism" which is rising in the RCC. It follows the push that the "old is new again".

[xchrom]

34. he wasn't liberal to me.

he was the source of this poisonous atmosphere.

[mitchtv]

56. nor moderate either

a fucking wingnut , venemous devil

[rman]

49. He wasn't liberal when he went to Nicaragua

"Twenty years ago, in August in the Columbian city of Medellin, Latin America's Catholic bishops signed a remarkable document that would become a religious magna carta for political and social change. The "Medellin Conclusions" led to a radical shift in religious attitudes among the Catholic masses, millions of whom joined church-sponsored organizations seeking economic and political justice. The post-Medellin Latin American church also had a profound influence on Catholic churches in other Third World regions as the philosophical nets of liberation theology spread. Ironically, while celebrations are in progress throughout the Catholic world in honor of the twentieth anniversary of "a historic monument," as Pope Paul VI called the Medellin Conclusions, Pope John Paul II is engaged in its destruction. If his efforts succeed, little will remain of Latin America's socially committed and theologically innovative church."

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Independent_Media/Peoples_Church_SNM.html

[DBoon]

7. so much for "new Europe"

any surprise that these leaders also supported the Iraqi invasion?

[neweurope]

10. The USA are heavily supporting this "new Europe". I see Poland as the

spearhead of the USA in Europe.

I have always believed that the "Osterweiterung" of EU - getting those eastern countries to join - was a grave mistake. We see now it is, in every respect. Of course our industry can now outsource jobs to Poland etc. which was probably the reason why those countries were supposed to join us in the first place.

------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[xchrom]

36. america for the most part opposes the formation of an

''EU''. --

i do think they use the eastern europe countries as a way saddling western europe.

[VegasWolf]

9. They better be careful, Catholics used to burn heretics at the stake! nt

[TallahasseeGrannie]

12. This is very disturbing

and from what I read, a trend in Europe. (and as we know, here in the USA) And we know there is state execution for gay men in some ME countries. I see this as getting worse rather than better and it surprises me.

I really thought in my naivite' that we were all headed for diversity and tolerance. Now I wonder if we'll ever get there. Frankly, I don't see it. Even the younger generations are homophobic. I see it at work all the time. (I am a teacher)

[stepnw1f]

14. Fascism Will Die Before It Gets Too Big

They are already burning out their support here. But will be interesting is who ends up on the wrong side...

[CatholicEdHead]

16. They still have their elected power even though their support is dropping

It is far from dead domestically and just getting started in many other places of the globe.

[stepnw1f]

17. It Is Dying as We Speak

[rodeodance]

15. thanks . I really did nto realize this was going on--so very open.

[genieroze]

21. What a moron, he acts like it's a communicable disease.

I won't make any Polish jokes about them being stupid, but stupid is as stupid does. Just for the record, I'm part Polish.

[DRoseDARs]

22. His own twin brother is a homophobe? Weird and sad. n/t

[Kailassa]

24. The twin brother of President Lech Kaczynski, not of Niemiec.

n/t

[NYC]

33. The government sets the tone for the acceptance of homophobia.

That's why we have a rise in antagonism here. Homphobia, sexism, racism, all of these things are more acceptable when the government sets the tone for it.

[xchrom]

37. a big country that represents the vaticans hope for reasserting

control and influence over europe.

[smirkymonkey]

38. This is really distressing - I always thought Europe (much of it, anyway)

was a beacon of tolerance and democracy. Now where do we run to once the Fascists have completely taken over? Very sad.

I have met quite a few individuals from former communist block countries who are now living here in New York and I am quite astounded by how conservative they are and how much they love George W. Bush. It's like the pendulum has completely swung the other way in opposition to communism. Hopefully they will see the shortcomings of rampant, unchecked capitalism and come back to the center.

[rman]

46. Where to run

Latin America is looking better by the day.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

47. Eh?

I always thought Europe (much of it, anyway) was a beacon of tolerance and democracy.

What on Earth gave you that idea?

[Odin2005]

39. Poles are very religious and socially conservative.

Poland had a very strong anti-Marxist backlash following the end of the Cold War.

[file83]

40. President Lech Kaczynski: "not willing to meet perverts"

...Yeah, and heterosexuals are NEVER perverts. :freak:

[Toucano]

48. ..."seeps across new EU." but only Poland is mentioned.

Did I miss something here?

"across new E.U."= one country in the E.U.?

[muriel_volestrangler]

50. There's a brief mention of 2 other countries

but at the same time as noting that it's not a general movement.

Events in Poland and moves to ban gay marriage in Latvia and Lithuania prompted the European Parliament to pass a resolution against homophobia in January.

One could also point out that Spain instituted full gay marriage, and the UK same-sex civil partnerships, in the past year or so.

[mogster]

52. But

That's old Europe, Spain and UK :P

No, but also in Scandinavia the Xtianism is on the rise. Not to mention the common rw w/nazi ties.

We're not done with the Xtians yet, though.

[muriel_volestrangler]

58. True - I'd been reading "expanded EU" for "new EU"

I suppose they do actually mean the new EU countries.

[smirkymonkey]

60. Even in Scandinavia??

How depressing - what hope is there now?

What is with all this conservatism and return to backward religious thinking? Is it primarily because of fear? Does being an ignorant, mindless idiot make people feel safe? :shrug:

[blackhorse]

63. Its the 'strong leader' instinct

When the leader appears strong, the others feel they can take a long nap. Unfortunately, our brains are programmed to believe that some idiot yapping forceful mindless nonsense is a "strong leader".

The whole business is profoundly depressing.

BH

[blackhorse]

64. It is all over eastern Europe

Poland is prominent because it is one of the strongest 'new EU' members. Honestly, I don't think any of these countries have ever had much of a liberal tradition.

Some on this forum have commented that America is funding the reactionary politics in the 'new EU'. I'm sure American money is supporting these countries to one degree or another - but (BIG "but") the real onus is on the EU. The EU decided to bring these countries in, and now the EU needs to confront the rightist tendencies of the new members. This kind of thing is a key stage in the political "growing up" of the EU, and they way they handle it will determine the future of their union.

BH

[NuttyFluffers]

59. Is it OK now to forget Poland?

:puke:

[blackhorse]

62. The Kaczynskis

capitalized on Poland's weariness with constant reports of government corruption, thus the "moral revolution" (and, of course, the Kacynskis will likely prove to be as corrupt as all the other politicians).

They're using homophobia IMO to gather power -- knowing that Polish conservatism is on par with 1950s America -- racist, xenophobic, homophobic, holier-than-thou, etc.

Poland's grave moral problems are a consequence of many things, not least of which was the ruthless destruction of the country's legitimate leadership during the 1940s by the Nazis and Communists. Unfortunately, there is no real national debate in Poland over the origin of this condition -- probably because the nation prefers to not accept the problem exists. Thus, the people elect a government like this, hoping for a quick fix to deep-seated issues that will never be resolved until they are truly confronted.

The F'in church is no help at all. Instead of helping the country onto its feet again, it is simply using the situation to boost its own power.

BH