Dutch consider burqa ban to Muslim dismay

[Freddie Stubbs]

By Alexandra Hudson

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - If the Netherlands becomes the first European country to ban the burqa and other Muslim face veils this month, Hope says she'll resort to wearing a surgical mask to dress in accordance with her religious beliefs.

"I'll wear one of those things they wore during the SARS epidemic if I have to," said the Dutch-born Muslim, one of about 50 women in the Netherlands who wear the head-to-toe burqa or the niqab, a face veil that conceals everything but the eyes.

"I'm very practical," the 22-year-old added.


Last December, parliament voted to forbid women from wearing the burqa or any Muslim face coverings in public, justifying the move in part as a security measure.

more: http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=lifeAndLeisureNews&storyid=2006-03-07T131434Z_01_L16289504_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-DUTCH-BURQA.xml

[Bridget Burke]

1. Are they going to institute a dress code for all the Dutch?

After all, street performers often conceal their identities. This guy/lady could be hiding a pretty big bomb in his/her pedestal.



As the article points out, the burqa is only worn in Afghanistan. Since some of the Muslim ladies say they will adapt surgical masks--should those also be banned? So what if someone with a dicey immune system might be exposed to infection--perhaps they should just stay home.

Just some more proof that even "enlightened, liberal" countries also have their small-minded bigots.

[Freddie Stubbs]

2. It just goes to show that the USA isn't as bad as some

make it out to be.

[depakid]

10. ???

What does that have to do with anything?

[Freddie Stubbs]

12. We have a lot compared to most countries

Look at what happened in Austria, where a guy was sent to jail for denying that the Holocaust happened.

[depakid]

25. Americans get arrested for wearing the wrong t-shirts!

How is that any better?

http://www.google.com/custom?q=t+shirts&sa=Go&cof=T%3Ablack%3BLW%3A370%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2F%3BLC%0D%0A%3Ablue%3BLH%3A75%3BBGC%3Awhite%3BAH%3Acenter%3BVLC%3Apurple%3BGL%3A0%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.commondreams.org%3BAWFID%3A558a065e2b806dc5%3B&domains=www.commondreams.org&sitesearch=www.commondreams.org

[Freddie Stubbs]

33. They aren't in jail

Our country has a pretty good due process, so that when government officials do things like this the problem is usually quickly resolved. The guy in Austria is serving a multi-year prison sentence. That seems a lot better to me.

[Ben Ceremos]

57. David Irving

is a professed Holocaust denier. It is the research and chicanery of such men that bolsters the extremists in their hatred and provide the basis for the lies of men like Ahmedinajad (sp?) in Iran.
David Irving has been tried more than once for his lies and has to pay the price for his malignancy.
The US may have a policy of allowing liars to speak publicly and to instigate harm against others (Pat Robertson, Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, Fred Phelps, Phyllis Schlafly...)but in Europe we know what that leads to. David Irving is rightly convicted of spreading lies, endangering Jews and instigating religious hatred. Maybe it is time for America to consider such laws to deal with the Republican Party, seeing as how they are fully distorting the history of your nation, people and values.
I end with a tip of a syphilitic penis to/and paraphrasing Ann Coulter..."Maybe we should kill liberals, then they would know that they too can die". Sounds like hate speech to me.

[Freddie Stubbs]

61. I'm sure if such laws existed in this country

they could be used against liberals as well as conservatives. Would you support that?

[DemVet]

62. You're a hypocrite

You only want it your way. Saying "The US may have a policy of allowing liars to speak publicly and to instigate harm against others (Pat Robertson, Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, Fred Phelps, Phyllis Schlafly...)but in Europe we know what that leads to." is sheer folly and dangerous. I don't agree with the viewpoints of those you mentioned, but they have EVERY right to speak their minds as anyone else. David Irving should not be in jail for his beliefs. Fascism is alive and well in Europe.

[pschoeb]

28. Actually many US jurisdictions have anti-mask laws

That could be used to prosecute Burqa wearers. While many of these laws stipulate that the mask must be used in a certain way (such as threatening or intimidation), but not all of them do, and even the ones that do stipulate this have been used to arrest persons. For example, some people were arrested in Georgia under anti-mask laws, one for wearing a kaffiyeh the other a bandana over his face, at an anti-CNN protest. The charges were latter dropped.

In Michigan 13 protestors were arrested under anti-mask laws for wearing Lone Ranger masks during a peacefull demonstration on Air Quality, Michigan law restricts the wearing of masks to entertainment, religious and historical purposes only.

Mew York State does not allow persons to wear masks in public, in groups of three or more(most burqa wearing women would not go out in public alone) without specific permits from police or city authorities, and then only for limited entertainment reasons.

etc.

[Ben Ceremos]

55. Yo, Freddy.

the Useless A is every bit as bad as many make it out to be. Stop comforting yourself with absurd nationalism while your country is dismantled and hollowed out around you. Consider any quality of life issues, including crime, environment and healthcare and you will find that you come off poorly in comparison to many countries with lesser means. Honesty is the best policy in life, it works well for nations too.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pschoeb]

17. Strangly the Netherlands proposed ban doesn't include on the streets

Only applicable in shops, public buildings, cinemas, trains, bus stops and airlines. Most street performers don't wear face obscuring costumes while shopping or seeing a movie, going to government buildings, or taking a trip on a plane or bus, my guess if they did so, they would be asked to leave.

Personally I think it is a stupid idea to purposefully ban burqas, but on the other hand burqa wearing women should not be afforded special rights that others don't get for their free expression. So for example, since a street performing tin man/women can't get on a plane as such, or a person who wears a face mask in solidarity with the Zapatistas, then I certainly don't think exceptions should be made for burqa wearing women. I don't value religious expression more than other forms of free expression especially political or ideological expression.

In many US jurisdictions wearing face obscuring covering are illegal if they are used in a certain manner. For example in New York it is illegal for groups(3 or more) of masked people to congregate in public, except for a masquerade party "or like entertainment", and then only with appropriate permit from the police or city authorities. It was successfully used to deny the "Church of the American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan", a religious group, though hatefull, from getting a New York parade permit.

[Kailassa]

23. I have Muslim friends here in Australia and ...

they would love the burqa to be banned here, so their menfolk would no longer try to force them and their daughters to wear it. The ones with the more controlling husbands leave home wearing it and change at friends' houses, so their husbands believe they wear it all the time. It might sound stupid to us, but being brought up in that close-knit community makes it very difficult, and even dangerous, for the girls to make their own choices. There is always someone to see and tattle-tale, and the men that the women I know have to deal with are capable of being cruel and violent.

That is not to say this is the situation for Muslim women everywhere, I can only talk about the dozen or so families I know from one particular community.

[superconnected]

35. Grossly deformed women also often wear veils.

[Ben Ceremos]

54. Just some more proof that even "enlightened, liberal" countries

also have their small-minded bigots"...and his name is Geert Wilders. "Loser with bad hair" is what that translates into in Wallon...joking..sorry to the Belgians.
The majority of us don't want your Bushstyle oppressions here.

[corporatemedia]

3. "No face coverings? Cancel my trip to Amsterdam!" - Michael Jackson

[MetaTrope]

4. A federal law covering 50 women?

Isn't that a bit...extreme?

[phusion]

6. sad move...

losing freedoms in the name of "security."

[Ben Ceremos]

8. The proposed ban

is more than likely a violation of the EU treaty on religious freedom. The security issue is a ruse and it won't work. Hell, you must think we are stupid here in NL. The ban was proposed by the right wing. We are having municipal elections today and everything indicates the multi-culti-left is going to gain nationally. The way our cities go is the way our general election goes. This ban is bogus, it is fear-mongering. As for our immigration laws; they have always been amongst Europes most restrictive, though our asylum laws have been cutback to only allow for "proven persecution" under the mean-spirited Minister Verdonk (may she rot in a lonely retirement).
By the way, Dutch freedom has always been less than many would expect. We are registered, categorized and directed through much of our lives. The old days had "the 5 pillars" which was a society with a strong moral component (guilt)and rigid advancement criteria. Our famed soft-drugs policy is the result of an evolution in the notion of the value of individual freedom. The nice thing about about our current situation is that we are not likely to go back down that path and re-decide. We like our society and we are planning on limiting the influence of neo-liberal and privateerist interests (as per our decision to not privatize the energy sector anymore.)

[rinsd]

18. "violation of the EU treaty on religious freedom"

Not likely. When France can ban crosses, burkas and yalmulkes from being worn in public places I assume the Dutch can have something removed for a state document.

[Ben Ceremos]

20. The French ban on religious symbols

applies to public institutions and not to the public sphere, per se.

[Odin2005]

7. What happened to freedom of religion?

If people want to do such things it's thier own damn choice. As long as they are not being forced to wear it by thier fellow minorities, I have no problem with it.

[Freddie Stubbs]

9. Other countries don't have the same freedoms which we do

Just last week a man was sent to jail in Austria for denying that the Holocaust occurred. In the USA he would have been free to spout his crazy lies.

[tenshi816]

36. Bullshit.

I live in the UK and have exactly the same freedoms that you do. I get sick of hearing that no other country is as free as the United States (and I'm an American). Some countries aren't, but the United States holds no monopoly on "freedom". If you think Americans are freer than citizens of every other country on the planet, then you ought to get out more.

[fujiyama]

40. Freedom of speech

while for the most part is very great in the UK, isn't quite the same as the US.

First off, the lack of a written constitution has allowed for restrictions we would likely find unacceptable. For example, take libel laws. While in theory they should work to society's advantage in not allowing outright lies to be spread, the burden of proof is much greater here in the US. When the book "House of Bush, House of Saud" was released, it was actually taken off British bookshelves because a Saudi royal member sued the publisher.

Another issue they are accustomed to is surveillance. Due to a history of terror attacks by the IRA, they have accepted cameras everywhere and less privacy in general - regarding government wiretaps, reading emails and snooping in general.

Note, I'm not saying we have it better off in every way. I believe their media definetely scrutinizes its goverrnment in a way ours doesn't. Their politicians also seem more directly accountable - as they are forced to debate vigerously and vocally in parliment. And I know during elections, the party leaders vying for PM are forced to ask difficult questions on the radio.

Still it's different.

[tenshi816]

44. Where do you get your information

about reading e-mails and "snooping in general"? I've been in the UK for 20 years and this is the first I've heard of it. Also government wiretaps - you're not trying to say it's not happening in America are you?

Another thing you'll never find in the UK are religious groups getting into bed with politicians to force their own agendas down people's throats, which is happening on a regular basis in the US. The right of a woman to choose what she does with her own body is being steadily eroded in America as well, but not in Britain.

The demonstrations following the publication of the Danish cartoons would not have been tolerated in the USA.

I feel far freer in the UK than I ever did in the United States.

[fujiyama]

45. I'm not trying to claim

we have more privacy. Over the past five years, the state of civil liberties and privacy has eroded to a level as bad or arguably worse than Europe (as we realized with the recent warrantless wiretaps).

Only difference is, it's been going on longer across the pond.

Here's an article from '00 (obviously well before 9/11):

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/07/28/uk.surveillance.idg/index.html

As for similar demonstrations following the carrtoons not being allowed here, here is a pic threatening the cartoonists.

http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/search?p=new+york+protest&xargs=0&pstart=1&c=images&b=21

This isn't a pissing contest. As I said, our rights have been greaatly eroded under Bush, but the state of civil liberties is not that much better in the UK, if at all.

I agree though that the Christian right isn't as powerful there so you can be thankful (Britains aren't fighting over "intelligent design"). It doese seem as though radical Islamism is a greater threat to the UK than the US for various reasons.

[tenshi816]

58. OK, but that was the main point of

my original post, which responded to the assertion that Americans are "freer" than anyone else in the world. I wasn't trying to get in a pissing contest either; it just annoys me when people make that claim when it clearly isn't true.

[nomo]

11. Should have read: "to dismay Muslims" n/t

[demo dutch]

13. I guess they're beyond being tolerant after all these years.. see clip

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11569485/site/newsweek/

They feel when in Rome...

[High Plains]

14. So the "values" of the Netherlands are now to squash other

people's expressions of their religion? Charming.

[Ben Ceremos]

21. Believe what you will,

we are not doing that which you claim. It is a rightwing initiative. Wisen up.

[High Plains]

29. That's a relief.

I didn't claim anything. I was responding to another poster.

Although I will say you have managed to elect a right-wing government, so it is not surprising that we are seeing rightist initiatives. I hope they don't have any better luck with this than with shutting down the cannabis cafes.

And it's "wise up." (Just a friendly correction; I assume you're not a native English speaker.)

[Ben Ceremos]

30. The Dutch voter is

just as susceptible to scare tactics as any other voter, the CDA government was a racist and anti-social reaction to lies the media spread. It hasn't taken us long to come around to the truth and fight for our rights. The CDA is finished as local elections have clearly demonstrated, as the failure to hoodwink us on the EU Constitution demonstrated, and the statistic that CDA led government has 12% approval rating demonstrates.
We tend to punish political disingenuity quite harshly here. The CDA/VVD coalition will likely fall or be bootstrapped for the next year. Our municipal elections are a very good indicator of what we will be voting for in 2007. Congratulations to the Dutch Left for a fine showing and for restoring our hope in the "Third Way". Extra big hugs to Jan M. and all the wonderful socialists that worked so hard on the nations behalf. NCPN, thanks for being there Wim!!!
(Proper English usage of the term is "wisen up". ):think:

[THUNDER HANDS]

15. frankly I consider it a good thing

covering yourself up because your religion tells you to is a stupid thing. Especially since we all know that God didn't decree it, but rather the bigoted men who wrote the religious texts that these people follow.

Religious freedom is one thing, but wearing a burqa is degrading and stupid, and just because your spiritual book tells you to do it is no excuse. I can't imagine women anywhere would WANT to wear one, if they weren't under the misguided belief that their God wanted them to.

[Ben Ceremos]

31. Did you read the article?

We do believe in the individuals right to freedom of expression. The niqab is worn voluntarily...get it?
The ban is an initiative by one of our looney rightists, Geert (Bad hair-day everyday) Wilders. He is a closet racist and shady nationalist. The neo-nazis that had no one to vote for split the vote between Wilders and the miniscule "neo-nazi" NVU (sorry to the Nederlands Vereniging van Urologen). The ban is one of those lovely red herrings that Wilders keeps whipping about to try and get more general support. Most of us wish him failure and dismiss him as a fool, like Adolf...
(I have debunked at least 3 Dutch slanders on this forum in the last year. I wish people would realize that Dutch society is not interested in moving backwards. We repudiate all attempts to steal our patrimony. We are not interested in the CDA and its failed policies. We retain our coffeeshops, prostitution and our tolerance. Your 9-11 was a coup against your society and against democracy in general. We know this and we resist for your sake, so one day your nation will be able to look up to the European democracies as role models. We wish you luck, and once again, don't believe the hype.)

[Odin2005]

39. Some people seem to think you can have any lifestyle you want...

...as long as it is a modern secular western lifestyle. Banning women from wearing the burka is like banning a religious woman being a stay-at-home mom, IMO.

[Megahurtz]

42. I agree with you.

Banning the burqa is just like banning sexism which is a good thing!:)

[PsychoDad]

49. Pray tell,

How is telling a woman what she cannot wear any less sexist than telling her what she must wear?

It's still a matter of you controlling her choice.

Let the woman choose. It's her body, it's her clothing.

Peace.

[Misunderestimator]

16. What's next? The Yarmulka?

[VaYallaDawg]

19. Ding! Ding! Ding!

That's just the point! What about collars on priests? Habits on the few cloistered nuns who still wear them? Dreadlocks on the Rastas (I can't spell the long form of that name, but you know what I mean)?

If an article of clothing/grooming is an expression of religious belief my own sense of right and wrong tells me that the individual gets to decide on it - I think that's part of our tradition of religious freedom in the US. I'm not at all familiar with Dutch/EU constitutional framework, and theirs may be different. But just because a woman wears a burqa (or a man wears a yarmulka or a backwards collar) - who am I to say that person is wrong, misguided, believing in a false god, or whatever? No way.

[Ben Ceremos]

24. There is no public interest

or debate on this issue. Anyone can dress as they will, they do need to reveal their full face for the sake of identification, but no one, except our looney right is planning to support such a measure.
By the way, our nationwide municipal elections have been worn by the multi-culti-left and the socialists. This means you can't believe all you read about the "end of Dutch tolerance", as these parties are supportive of a mixed society. A burqa ban won't be happening here anytime soon. Don't believe the hype.

[Bridget Burke]

26. Thanks for the information.

The USA is not alone in having Right Wing Loonies. However, they are not in control in the Netherlands.

They aren't really in control over here--yet--but Bush & Co like to pander for their votes.

[slackmaster]

22. The Dutch should just ban all clothing and get on with life

Imagine the world's second-largest nudist colony, after France.

[MADem]

27. Hmmmm. The rise of nationalism, redux

We saw this same sort of shit happen, in different countries and in different fashion, in the run-up to WW2.

My guess is this law is more about preserving the unique Dutch "cultural identity" (which gets less and less unique as globalism marches on) than anything else.

There are a range of justifications they put forth, beyond the security aspect: "The burqa is hostile to women, and medieval. For a woman to walk around on the streets completely covered is an insult to everyone who believes in equal rights."

The Dutch may have been among the first to legalize cannabis, prostitution and euthanasia -- earning them a reputation for tolerance -- but they are now in the process of imposing some of Europe's toughest entry and integration laws....

It would seem the supporters of this new rule are signaling that they want their once rather homogenous country back....

[Ben Ceremos]

32. What, all 300 of them?

Please read my posts regarding my home country of the Netherlands. I think you will understand more afterwards. We Dutch have a 700+ year tradition of being "multi-culti". Our country is not homogenous, we have citizens from over 78 countries in Amsterdam alone, and nationwide we have people from virtually every country on earth. As a small nation, we prosper by the nature of our foreign relations. As a maritime trading nation, we profit from our adaptability to other cultures...figure out the rest.

[Bridget Burke]

34. The nutty Right Wing minority tends to get more attention.

We have more than our share & they do shout louder.

[MADem]

37. I am speaking about assimilation, not race or ethnicity

[Ben Ceremos]

43. We have very intensive

assimilation courses here. The current gov't. requires the immigrant applicant for residency to fulfill various language, history and social normative requirements.The courses last more than 3 months and are mandatory. It's called "inburgeringscursus" and it is widely accepted in the immigrant and non-native communities as a program that works.
The old problems related to ghetto-forming and social isolation have been acknowledged and are being aggressively combatted. The looney/immigrant-scapegoating rightwing believes in a racist view of Dutch society. Most of us do not.

[MADem]

56. I know, and the result of that is maintenance of a unique cultural

identity. It's a lot like the US attitude was during the raising up of the generation following the early 20th Century nostalgic heyday of immigration, when Dino Martino became Dean Martin, Archibald Leach became Cary Grant, Margarita Cansino became Rita Hayworth, and Issur Danielovitch Demsky became Spartacus himself, Kirk Douglas. There was no real coursework required, no insistence that anyone get in the unique American groove, but there was an unspoken understanding that if mama and papa didn't assimilate, the next generation would.

Nowadays, with increased travel and exposure to different cultures, there's more of an embrace of different foods, customs, less willingness to change a name to make it "sound" American, and so on, but I do remember a day when some of my elderly relatives thought pizza was incredibly exotic!

[Ben Ceremos]

59. We have had this debate here...

in NL. What are our core values? What makes one Dutch? What is "required" for integration?
The answers were pathetically meager. Ham-kaas broodjes, zoute haring, "Oranje", de Wilhelmus, wintersport vacantie, soft-drugs tolerance, prostitution, freedom of speech, bicycles...Basically, the only thing that makes the Netherlands unique in its culture is our language. Period. If you learn to speak Dutch, you are 90% integrated. Most of the autochtonen (natives) don't know the national anthem any better than new arrivals. US assimilation hinges on language skills as well. Most cultures see the defence of language as essential to identity. Baguettes, sauerkraut, macchiatos, bocadillos...all these don't make you French, German, Italian or Spanish; but speaking the language will go a long way to getting you invited to parties.:party: :party: :party:

[Igel]

38. This article bothered me when I first read it, and

I couldn't figure out why. Flu, exhaustion ...

It just wapped me upside the head.

When we were all obsessing over burqas and Afghanistan a few years back, the burqa was a prominent part of the ranting. But, Islamic apologists responded, it's not part of Islam: Many tribes/clans/cultures have intermixed their own cultural norms with Islam, to the detriment of the virtual perfection that is Islam. The burqa, backwards tho' it be, is one such custom: Islam is moderate and tolerant in all things, and requires simply modesty and light covering, not the oppressive and completely un-Islamic burqa. The burqa does not represent Islam.

Fast forward to the present: To ban the burqa is to insult Islam.

Either the former apologists lied to us, or they're clueless about Islam. Or the current crop are lying to us, or are clueless about Islam.

"Whack-a-mole" comes to mind. Islam is whatever a Muslim says it is; if there's a problem, just find a Muslim who can state, dogmatically, that the horrible thing done by a "Muslim" under discussion isn't Islam--if that's what's needed; if, instead, it's necessary to say how horrible some "Muslim" is being treated, find a Muslim who'll say the opposite. 1 billion Muslims; no shortage of apodictic statements about Islam. The former apologists were either deluded as to their own importance, simply forgot that their opinions are less useful than they let on, or lied. (So, are current apologists in the same boat?)

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PsychoDad]

50. You are correct

"Islam is whatever a Muslim says it is"

Actually Islam is whatever Allah says it is, but much like Judaism, we have no Pope or other clerical hierarchy to define the will of God for us, It is incumbent upon each muslim to come to that understanding herself.

We do have scholars and opinions(fatwa) that we can refer to, but in the end our understanding of the will of God is personal, as is our relation to the One.

Therefore Muslims and Islam should be judged upon the mainstream of it's adherents, not upon a vocal militant fringe anymore than all christians should be judged by the image of Robertson or all atheists judged by the image of Pol Pot.

Hope you feel better soon, :) Take care of yourself.

Peace.

[Ben Ceremos]

51. Asalaamu Malayekum,

and Bismallah to you. I was wondering when the voice of reason and understanding would explain the facts to the posters who don't umnderstand. My Muslim god-daughter and all her wonderful family here and in Bangladesh thank you for this most useful explanation and argument. Allahvis (Bangla for fare well).:hi:

[fujiyama]

46. When I first quickly read it

I thought they were banning headscarves or hijabs. That I found to be unacceptable.

I still find this counterproductive even though I'm not very sympathettic toward those believing in wearing a burqa (or as Bill Maher called it - the beekeepers outfit). After all, they'll wear a surgeon's mask or cover their face some other way. It's a matter of defiance, which is understandable to some extent (like wearing a headscarf - makes a statement but doesn't isolate you).

IMO, women wearing burqas shouldn't be allowed to drive for the simple reason that their peripheral vision is most likely worsened. I also wouldn't allow it in most employment positions which require decent vision.

[Endangered Specie]

47. What they should be doing...

is throwing out the extremist men/husbands who force these women to wear them.

I sincerely doubt these women 'choose' to wear such clothing... would you ever wear something like that. AFAIK nothing in the Quran states you must wear something like that.

The Dutch (understandably) have been seriously reconsidering their lax immigaration laws, and who can blame them really?

[Ben Ceremos]

52. To which "lax immigration laws"

are you referring? NL has historically had the least liberal immigration standards and laws. The small size of our land requires that we limit immigration. We had somewhat liberal asylum laws, however these have been unnecessarily hardened, IMO, because of the anti-immigration rightwing (which is generallly considered a cover for racist ideas) scare tactics and unsavory and instigated events in the recent past.

Also...

According to the 2 authors of the book "Introducing Islam", Ziauddin Sardar and Zafar Abbas Malik;
"Quranic advice about modesty in behavior...has been exclusively interpreted in terms of the behavior of women. 'Modest' and 'decent' behavior for women in public has been interpreted as a rigid dress code despite the openness and much wider significance...of the Quranic verses...". (P.160)

The original article has quotes from at least one young woman who claims to wear the niqab because of her love of Allah...I have yet to meet any woman in Dutch society forced to wear a niqab, and certainly not met any woman who is forced to wear a burqa. The sad part about all this is that it is oppressive enforcement of a selective law against a particular cultural/religious group and the majority of us do not support a ban on personal choice, certainly not as far as religious conviction is concerned.
In agreement with the sentiment posted earlier, the looney rightwing fringe makes the most noise, but that does not in any way mean they have any support for this draconian measure.

Peace.

[PsychoDad]

48. One day we will all be "equal"

I have a dream....

With the miracle of genetics the world will be filled with healthy, hairless, androgynous looking people of the same grey skin color, forced by law to wear the same grey unisex suit. All persons will be employed in state factories and all will live in the same type sleep cubicle.

Names can harbor too many racial or disturbing cultural overtones. To promote social harmony, each of us will be identified by our Homeland Social Security Number implanted under the skin at the back of our neck.

Money and wealth will be no longer, eliminating divisive "classes". Each citizen will be assigned a work quota. All citizens will be guaranteed 5 hours of sleep and personal time aside from work education. For those citizens who for some reason fail to meet the assigned quota, they will be sent on "vacation" at state expense. After which they will be "reassigned", and never seen from again.

Of course faces and hands will be required to be uncovered at all times so that cameras using friendly recognition software can track and identify you, for your own safety, of course.

No child will be left behind when all education is delivered via "Fair and balanced" educational news which they can watch from the factory floor.

Only one unifying religion will be allowed. One in which the state is seen as the manifestation of an impersonal "god". Of course this "god" has to be personified so the masses may identify with it. Somehow, this god, "Good Father", looks like a cross between Jerry Falwell and Rush Limbaugh... only in grey.

Why tap our phones when we will all be required to confess our "sinful" thoughts of individualism to the loving priests of Homeland Security.

The Division of Peace Police will administer the needed gentle chastisement and re-education in the form of cleansing electro-shock.

Colors deemed too disturbing or emotional will be banned. Our terror alerts, and yes, there will be terror alerts, will constitute of Light Warm grey, warm grey, neutral grey, light cold grey, cold grey, dark cold grey.

Of course the alerts will never be allowed to fall below light cold grey. There are always "terrorists" who threaten the stability of society among us... somewhere in the crowd.

Greys and calming pastels... Those are the colors of the not so brave new world.

Well, maybe not so much a dream as a nightmare.

I know, I'm cynical. :)

Peace.

[Ben Ceremos]

53. Not a vision of the future

that I want any part of. Let's work for a better world, full of colour and diversity, ok? Deal?
Peace, philadelphia and solidarity with the planet.

[PsychoDad]

60. Deal!

:)
Peace, and the brotherhood of Humanity.

A real goal to work toward.