Schoolboy's bias suit - Argues system is favoring girls

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/01/26/schoolboys_bias_suit/

At Milton High School, girls outnumber boys by almost 2 to 1 on the honor roll. In Advanced Placement classes, almost 60 percent of the students are female.

It's not that girls are smarter than boys, said Doug Anglin, a 17-year-old senior at the high school.

Girls are outperforming boys because the school system favors them, said Anglin, who has filed a federal civil rights complaint contending that his school discriminates against boys.

Among Anglin's allegations: Girls face fewer restrictions from teachers, like being able to wander the hallways without passes, and girls are rewarded for abiding by the rules, while boys' more rebellious ways are punished.

[bloom]

1. "girls are rewarded for abiding by the rules"

"while boys' more rebellious ways are punished".

That's pretty funny. I don't know that it would help boys to let them act out without discipline.

It seems that a lot of times - schools that are more "boy oriented" have super-discipline - super structure. Military academies and the like.


Do people really think that the way to get boys to learn more is to not expect them to behave in a reasonable way?

[zbdent]

3. Sounds like the George W. Bush defense

"Hey, I'm being attacked because I broke the laws! What about Bill Clinton, who got a blowjob???"

[bloom]

6. exactly

MSNBC ran that story recently that seemed to be a hodge-podge of ways that boys are supposedly victimized - when in real life - if anyone is being discriminated against it is non-white and/or poor males. The article didn't mention that - but it did quote an anti-feminist.

Someone predicted that something like this would follow.

[LisaL]

18. Hey, don't diss him. This boy can become president some day.

[meow2u3]

23. Only if he's a neocon repuke

If he were a Dem, he'd be locked up indefinitely without access to a lawyer. Due process be damned; he'd be presumed guilty and would have the impossible task of having to prove himself innocent.

[Lorien]

32. The republican syndrome effects even the very young

"RULES DON'T APPLY TO ME! NOW REWARD ME, DAMMIT"!

[PATRICK]

2. He's going to court with those statistics

and those complaints????

Are boys excluded from the honor role by being punished for testosterone pranks? Aren't there more girls than boys anyway and aren't differences in the sexes accidentally reward females in some areas, which probably goes to the smaller impact in AP percentages presumably because males dominate still in certain
curriculum divisions while overall the average favors girls? so no one by dint of anything is smarter than anyone else? The allegation can only be that structurally the school has a further bias weighted toward females, reducing it to the irrelevant charge of disciplinary inequity.

Calling Alito! There is no motivation for this case other than thinking the current RW climate encourages
a return to the club.

[alarimer]

14. Sounds like a frivolous lawsuit to me

Or someone who is being coached by Rush Limbaugh or other anti-feminists. "I can't do well enough to get on the honor roll, so it must be someone else's fault". Shut up and suck it up you whiny kid.

[LisaL]

19. Sounds like his father got a stupid lazy kid who only wants to play

sports, and is not happy about it.

[bemildred]

4. Oh good.

:popcorn:

[MindPilot]

5. That's just to prepare boys for what they will face later...

...in divorce court.

If I sound bitter and cynical, it's only because I am.

[Trillo]

29. A related thought occurred to me.

This boy's getting a legal education.

It's been my opinion for a number of years now, that since so much of our society is geared toward those in the legal profession and the implied lawsuit as well as the lack of civil law enforcement by government agencies such as the Justice Department, that all students should be schooled in basic law by the time they've graduated from the 12th grade, so most all citizens are prepared for real life.

It's absolutely amazing to me that people here are calling this boy "whiney", "stupid lazy kid", while at the same time, school systems teach basic government and the value the supposed "check and balance" the court system provides citizens.

[MindPilot]

37. I think you're right, and it goes to a larger issue

I haven't had a kid in school for almost ten years but I get the distinct impression that there is very little in the way a of life skills being taught. How credit works, home ownership, why you need insurance, that kind of stuff.

Edit: spelling

[Scout]

42. "there is very little in the way a of life skills being taught"

pardon me, but isn't that what PARENTS are supposed to teach their kids?

[Trillo]

45. When I read what MindPilot wrote

I took it to mean an objection to the near exclusive emphasis on abstract learning.

edited to add:
I wonder if girls, being generally acknowledged as better verbal communicators than boys, are better at abstract thinking, and hence, might do better in school, whereas, boys might tend more towards practical applications. I don't know, just wondering outloud.

[MindPilot]

50. In an ideal world, yeah.

but--and again I don't have kids in school so I'm not an expert--but focus seems to be on getting through the standardized tests rather than critical thinking skills and how to apply them?

[Marie26]

53. Since when is getting your lawyer parents

to file lawsuits a "life skill"? If anything, it's a lesson that you can get exceptions from the rules by complaining & intimidating people. This boy might have trouble once he finds that you're also expected to follow the rules in the job world as well.

[Trillo]

56. How does using the court system relate to getting "exceptions from the

rules"?

So far, Alito hasn't bothered to follow the rules of answering all questions posed by Senators. Neither has Bush and Bush's White House cared to answer many questions posed to them by various parties including requests of the legislators. Why do schools teach that following rules is the way to live life, when we are granted examples daily that it's those who break rules that are rewarded most richly by our society?

Is school simply preparing most of us for a synthetic society that only exists in the minds of a few?

[Marie26]

57. So we should teach children how to be

defiant & selfish & break laws to get what they want? A new generation of Republicans! I think it is valid for children to learn about the legal process - maybe even some sort of law class in high school. And everyone has a right to use the court system, and simply filing a lawsuit doesn't mean you're trying to get around the rules. But this kid is. His father is a lawyer & he goes to a wealthy school - I suspect this lawsuit is about justifying his low grades as some sort of "discrimination" so he can still go to that Ivy League college his parents always dreamed of. The complaints seem more like whines than valid grievances. (He can't wander the hallways w/o a pass?) It might be true that male students can face problems in the education system, but this is not the suit to show it.

[Trillo]

64. I'm not going to prejudge the decisions that may,

or may not, be reached in the case. Nor do I wish to guess at the reasons the lawsuit may have been filed.


You wrote: "He can't wander the hallways w/o a pass?" as a parenthetical.
The news item stated something to the effect that boys are disallowed, but that girls may w/o a pass. What's wrong with questioning the fairness of that and having it entered as a matter of court record?

Regarding your earlier point about this boy's father being a lawyer essentially being why this lawsuit was filed, I'd counter by asking what school system doesn't have a lawyer, and why aren't all children's parents required to be lawyers to insure their children aren't stepped all over by various parties within schools? (extreme example, I know, but it makes a point)

edited to add: In regards to your point about repubs, to some extent it is true right now; however, some have argued that FDR's New Deal didn't go far enough to the left to reign in capitalism itself. Does arguing that point make one a repub? I sure hope public K-12 schools haven't become as politicized as you are suggesting.

[bloom]

82. I'm not sure how

anyone around here can seriously defend this - but anyway - I saw this on another blog an it relates to Republicans, men and entitlement - like the subject at hand - so I'll just post it here:


"Has it occurred to the great bulk of our people that we need to quit tolerating the forces of internal destruction which work night and day to deconstruct our manliness at a time when our nation faces an absolute need for valor, ferocity, the force of arms, and the defense of the innocent pregnant woman and her children at home? Has it occurred to anyone, anyone at all, that it is immoral to assault masculinity?"

Found @

Plan 9 from Outer Wingnuttia
Wingnut Watch January 25th, 2006
http://www.reclusiveleftist.com/

and she got it from:

You can't fight Islamism with gay cowboys
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/longman/060120

[dansolo]

90. But what does that have to do with academic achievement?

The lawsuit has to do with gender bias in academic enrollment (honor roll and AP classes). I don't see how one issue has anything to do with the other. Unless male students are removed from the honor roll becuase of behavior (which the suit doesn't appear to be alleging), his justifications are pretty weak. I think that he is just a lazy, unmotivated student who realizes that he won't be able to attend the college of his choice because his grades are subpar, and he is trying to find someone else to blame.

[Trillo]

106. Hard to say,

I would guess it could go to showing a pattern of favoritism in the former, that might be implicated to repeat in obscure ways in the latter.

Earlier, I had thought the other poster had made some wild assumptions regarding the news item. Later, I discovered that there was a second page to it, that I hadn't previously read, and where additional "facts" were offered. After reading the entire item, I realized that the only time the word "suit" was mentioned was in the title (quick reading--I'm not going to click through again), it seemed that there was only a letter written to the school. I found myself asking if there was a lawsuit at all, or if the news item was fiction, perhaps designed to draw in an audience for clickthrough revenue.

There is one idea they have regarding pass/fail which might be worthy of court consideration. How healthy is it to demand perfection from students? How healthy is it to create competition instead of cooperation between students?

You wrote: "lazy" Where do you get that from?

[Marie26]

111. Nah

I don't think it's too off-base to speculate that raising this kid's grades is the true motive behind the lawsuit: "Gerry Anglin, Doug Anglin's father, said the school system should compensate boys for the discrimination by boosting their grades retroactively." Yes, give him straight A's! Pass/fail might not be a bad idea in some cases, but there's no guarantee that will get more boys to take honor-level classes if they're simply not interested. A better solution might be having male role models to inspire boys to achieve academically. I loved Anglin's other proposed reforms: "For example, he proposes that the high school give students credit for playing sports... He also wants the school to abolish its community service requirement, saying it's another burden that will just set off resistance from boys, who may skip it and fail to graduate as a result." So, schools should give academic credit for sports & get rid of that annoying requirement to help your community. There's video games to play! :eyes: His allegations don't show favoritism to girls, they show favoritism to responsible students. This is just a silly suit, although there is a real issue behind it.

[Trillo]

115. Boy's father likely has a bias,

that doesn't mean there aren't some valid points being made. All that should be fleshed out in court, whether it will be is another matter. Boys's father would do well to obtain dispassioned counsel, even if he is a lawyer.

[Ben Ceremos]

110. Hall passes...hmmm,

at my daughter's high school, the teachers don't enforce the hallpass policy with girls at certain times of the month...She said it made sense to her as some girls have to "go" without the time to ask for permission to change a pad or etc.
Discrimination charges based on such practice are hollow. If the lawyers can prove that more resources are allocated for females, more attention is given to their requests, or that there is systematic bias...but the story gave me the impression that this claim is frivolous.

[Trillo]

114. "the story gave me the impression "

I think that is something that I got from it too, once I'd found and read the last page. With all the lack-of-reporting and frequent obvious bias by the corporate media, the stories of government propaganda that (oops!) seems to find its way home, etc., to assume this story is reflective of the truth (maybe it is) of an actual lawsuit is a real leap of faith. Anyone got a link to the actual court filing?

I do believe there's a possibility that a rationale such as time of month or another is likely to be used. But does that rise to a standard of "more attention is given to their requests" than boys seems a reasonable question that may indicate some other a patterned phenomenon of favoritism. If that is explored in court, then the idea I expressed in a prior post where girls are better communicators (possibly because of brain physiology) and hence more suited to certain types of abstract classroom work, whereas boys might be better suited to practical applications (think shop type learning) would seem to be reasonable avenues of inquiry. There may also be an economic (in a greater societal aspect) factor: in prior generations of a manufacturing economy boys may have been favored because of such a need for practical application laborers, whereas in a service economy, girls may be favored because of their communication skills. The easy way out of this perceived impression of favoritism is to allow both boys and girls to go to the bathroom without needing special passes, but if one wishes to argue physiological need as a rationale for special treatment, then there may be the above mentioned (greater female communication skills) or other issues such as have been mentioned by others in this thread, i.e., lack of testosterone, and therefore girls may be better at following rules (which are communicated and are hence "abstract" or that may be matters of selection and past survival in a Darwinian sense) without any tendency toward rebelliousness. I think I'd also be curious as to what processes the school has instituted to insure the girls are in fact going for a pad change, or if sometimes some of them are clandestinely using that rationale for another purpose such as perfume application or even an impromptu break from class, or some other non-approved rationale not based upon physiological need, as actually practiced by each female student (trust, but verify).

I'm unconvinced that said perception of favoritism is "hollow". Perhaps the gender-based hallway-pass disparity needs to be countered with some other offset, such as that mentioned by the quoted school administrator, or another, perhaps gender separated learning and/or gender specific curriculums. Edited to add, perhaps even gender specific tests.

[redqueen]

49. Brilliant.

:eyes:

[Sandpiper]

7. While his efforts may be misguided, he raises an important point

That being that boys are increasingly being left behind by the education system.

There is an ever growing achievement gap between girls and boys at the public school level, and women now outnumber men on college campuses nationwide by almost 20% (59% to 41%).

While we should applaud the strides that girls and young women have been able to make in their academic endeavors, we should be equally concerned that boys are increasingly lagging behind.

[dmallind]

9. No you just don't get it

When girls lagged behind in academics it was because of discrimination, and therefore bad (and yes true)

When boys lag behind it's because they are naturally dumber than girls and can't act appropriately, and therefore just peachy (and of course, crap)

There is a certain blinkered type of progressive that cannot possibly imagine as real any bias from any group against males (or whites, or the wealthy, or English-speaking, or any of the traditional identifiers of the "oppressors" of yore). All the statistics in the world from academia, or from custody hearings or divorce courts, will never shake this righteous inculcated victimhood.

[Demeter]

20. Boys Opt Out of the Education System

Ask them why they didn't do the homework, attend the class, sign up for math or science courses--they don't have to and you can't make them.

Later on, they opt out of fatherhood, marriage, being responsible citizens, then suddenly they are 35 and it's all someone else's fault. It is a national pattern. It is a couple generations old now. Because their fathers opted out, provided poor role models, and their peers are all equally immature.

[Gormy Cuss]

22. In this case, you don't get it.

This is a spoiled child of privilege who doesn't want to take responsibility for his own screw-ups.
Anglin -- whose complaint was written by his father, who is a lawyer in Boston -- is looking for broader changes.

Milton is a largely upper middle class town. The son wants to attend Holy Cross and has probably figured out that his tepid record isn't going to make him a good candidate for admittance.

I've never heard a progressive say that boys lag because they're naturally dumber, but I'm old enough to remember when that was said routinely to explain lags by girls, blacks, etc.

There is a valid issue of whether the genders learn better in environments that are tailored to their each gender's strong suits.

[dmallind]

10. No you just don't get it

When girls lagged behind in academics it was because of discrimination, and therefore bad (and yes true)

When boys lag behind it's because they are naturally dumber than girls and can't act appropriately, and therefore just peachy (and of course, crap)

There is a certain blinkered type of progressive that cannot possibly imagine as real any bias from any group against males (or whites, or the wealthy, or English-speaking, or any of the traditional identifiers of the "oppressors" of yore). All the statistics in the world from academia, or from custody hearings or divorce courts, will never shake this righteous inculcated victimhood.

[dmallind]

11. No you just don't get it

deleted - inadvertent repost

[bloom]

16. Framing...

"Framing this as gender issue obscures the greater problems–racism and classism. Among middle class Whites there is no gender gap, but among African Americans and Latinos there is a gender gap that only gets worse as income gets lower. For Whites the only gender gap is for young people from lower income families.

So a better question is not where are the missing men, but where are the missing Black and Latino men and their poor White counterparts? The gender gap can only be understood by taking an intersectional approach. The typical suburban White guy still goes to college, but many other men do not."

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/09/the-boy-crisis-in-education




I don't see why it's such a big deal to expect people to do the work for their grades - instead of students having their lawyer dad file a lawsuit.

(But it's so much more fun to be a victim - maybe he can lawsuit himself through life).

[Hello_Kitty]

35. Not true.

There are still blue collar jobs to be had that don't require a degree. While more women are going for them, they remain male bastions. Women know that they need at least a Bachelor's to obtain a job that pays a decent salary. Boys aren't being "left behind" at all. More men attend college now than at any time too but the ratio is scewed because many more women are enrolling. This is an example of statistics being used to invent a "problem" where none exists. Funny how decades ago when colleges were 90% male no one was fretting over girls being shortchanged.

Katha Pollitt has a good take on it in the current edition of the Nation:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060130/pollitt

[AngryAmish]

46. circa 1955

There are plenty of things women can do that don't require a degree, like homemaking. Men know that they need at least a Bachelor's to obtain a job that pays a decent salary and take care of their families. Girls aren't being "left behind" at all. More women attend college now than at any time too but the ratio is screwed because many more men are enrolling. This is an example of statistics being used to invent a "problem" where none exists.

Denial of problems never really changes, it is only those in power that changes.

[Hello_Kitty]

55. I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not by that post

I'm sure that's the argument that was made for women not going to college in those days. But few men went to college then either. Universities were still mainly for the sons (and some daughters) of the priveleged, though the GI bill and land grants were changing those demographics.

As for "only those in power that changes"....yeah right... :eyes: circa 2006.

[Sandpiper]

68. Interesting that you make the point

There are still blue collar jobs to be had that don't require a degree.


Then cite an article that mentions the same point, while at the same time mentioning the decline of high paying blue collar jobs.


I'm confused.


So more girls are going to college because boys are taking blue collar jobs even though those jobs are declining in number. Or is it because the boys are all becoming electricians, plumbers, and mechanics? Or is it because boys are just irresponsible and think they'll grow up to be rappers or sports stars?

I like the Nation, but that article was myopic pap that offered an anecdotal explanation for an actual disparity (my daughter's two male friends went to cooking school, or, boys can become carpenters, electricians, and truckers) Well, I guess that just settles it then.


Funny how decades ago when colleges were 90% male no one was fretting over girls being shortchanged.


Yeah, except for the feminist movement but they hardly count, right?



Equally funny how many "progressives" are so quick to poo-poo issues negatively effecting anyone who say...has a penis.

It makes them seem not all that different from those who used to say "the reason women aren't going to college is because they want to stay home and have babies."

[Hello_Kitty]

71. So since you still insist there's a problem, what's the cause?

Who or what is keeping boys out of college in droves?

Oh yeah, I know...the feminists. We just want to keep men out of college where they'll become smarter and learn to think critically and be exposed to new ideas like, you know, feminism... We're just such darn man-haters that we want to screw men over even if we'd benefit from it. :eyes:

[Sandpiper]

74. That's the point I'm making

What is keeping boys out of college?


Saying that boys aren't going to college because they're all becoming carpenters and mechanics, absent data, holds as much water those who used to say "girls aren't going to college because they want to get married and be housewives." In some cases, it may well be true, but in all cases? I doubt it. Show me the proof.


And what are you getting so defensive about? You said no one cared decades ago that girls weren't going to college, a patently false assertion, since the feminist movement obviously cared about it.

Somehow you contorted that into an attack on the feminist movement.


You can put your victim card away now.

[Hello_Kitty]

78. I'd put my victim card away

But I haven't seen it since the Poor Maligned White Dudes wrested it away from me years ago.

I think Pollitt made her point very well in the article. Maybe you just missed it. Just because the number of good paying blue collar jobs is declining doesn't mean they are non-existent by a longshot. And they mostly go to men, hence women possibly feel more of an imperative to attend college.

And yes, the feminist movement WAS concerned about women's higher education 50 years ago. And what a HUGE and influential movement it was back in the 50s, huh? I mean, EVERYBODY was jumping to their commands, right? Please. And the mainstream was NOT wringing its hands over the disproportional male college enrollment like is now that the reverse is true. Unless you can provide a link that proves otherwise.

[Sandpiper]

81. And unless you can provide a link

Backing up Politt's assertions, I stand by assessment of them.

Anecdotal pap.

[Hello_Kitty]

86. I'll get right to work on that.

But here's some light reading for now, a quick google search led me to this little article from askmen.com, a popular internet forum where men gather to ogle the babes, get tips on fashion, learn how to get chicks to shag them, and of course, commiserate about the Evil Feminist Plot to keep them down. You know, typical fodder for your Adam Carolla types. This article appears to be recommending the trades to its readers. Hmmmm....I believe it has some stats too. Enjoy.

http://www.askmen.com/money/career_60/86_career.html

[Sandpiper]

89. Nevermind

Not worth continuing this conversation.


Welcome to my ignore lsit.

[bloom]

87. Lets look at these statistics - median earnings

$40,000 White men with "some collge" (no degree)

$33,000 Black men with "some collge" (no degree)

$31,000 Hispanic men with "some collge" (no degree)

$25,000 women in general with "some collge" (no degree)


----------

Lets look at bachelors degrees:

$55,000 White men with a bachelors degree

$42,000 Black men with a bachelors degree

$41,000 Hispanic men with a bachelors degree

$38.000 Black or White women with a bachelors degree

$30,000 Hispanic women with a bachelors degree

---------

And white men with just high school can expect to earn $35,000 - more than white or black women with a bachelors degree.

So you can see why those women need to be going to college.


http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/09/the-boy-crisis-in-education

[DerBeppo]

101. well...

all degrees are not created equal.

yes, there are systemic differences in pay and opportunity, but those numbers don't prove it. my google skills are not up to par enough to be able to find a breakdown of pay in these same demographics when adjusted for the specific degree the groups earned, ie English, Engeneering, Communications, etc.

[Yupster]

109. My family sure backs those stats

My wife and I each have master's degrees in the exact same field yet I make more than 30 times what she makes.

Families like mine must really move those numbers.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

8. LOL.

I can't add anything to this:

''The system is designed to the disadvantage of males," Anglin said. ''From the elementary level, they establish a philosophy that if you sit down, follow orders, and listen to what they say, you'll do well and get good grades. Men naturally rebel against this."

Edit:

On the other hand, this is just going too fucking far:

As for assignments, she said, one teacher expects students to type up class notes and decorate their notebooks with glitter and feathers.

[bloom]

12. "one teacher expects students"

I don't find it very believable either.

[dmallind]

17. I sure as heck believe

I have a 15 yr old stepdaughter. 10th grade at one of the top public high schools in a state that consistently ranks in the top 3 for high school performance. You'd think academics would be the important thing, especially at that age where kids can finally start wrestling with some important abstract concepts and getting into the meaty parts of science and language and so on.

So why does her French (not art) homework have her coloring in and decorating a fake menu, with 50% of the score in visual appeal rather than maybe, just maybe 95% of it being based on the frickin' language?

Why does her American history (not drama) project include dressing up in period costume and acting out a radio skit from the 50s (not just hers - all groups did the same, just from different decades) with I forget what but a massive chunk of the score going to the dressing up and acting part instead of as you would normally expect understanding the social and political themes of the decade?

You're telling me that emphasizing playing dressup and decorating manus isn't just a teensy weensy bit tilted toward the female end of the class?

Yes two anecdotal examples, but I have more of these and no anecdotal examples at all of her having being asked to do more "male"
slanted tasks for academic credit.

[Yupster]

27. I think this is just because

teachers are so overwhelmingly female today, especially in elementary schools.

When the teacher wants to make her project more interesting, she naturally thinks of what would be more interesting to her, and that's going to be girl stuff. I think that's only human nature.

I think that just like it's important to have minority teachers at every school, it's also important to have male teachers at every school. Kids need role models to look up to, especially when so many have no dads at home.

[knitter4democracy]

62. The male students I had did very well in those kinds of projects.

When I had my students do more creative projects, like radio dramas or art projects relating to the book, my male students did just as well or better than my female students. I taught AP English and Senior English at a co-ed comprehensive Catholic school, and there were no discrepancies in my grades between male and female or racially (I checked when I was accused of bias).

[MADem]

83. I am assuming she is not a special needs child

COLORING at age 15??? At a TOP school? No WONDER our children isn't learnin'!!!!!!!

That seems like a terribly LAME assignment. Were the students allowed to choose from a list of assignments, or did they all get that stupid busywork?

I think that school needs a new French teacher.

[dmallind]

113. Nope not at all

She's no Einstein but she's carrying a B average in a school that scores consistently near the top of state HS ranking, signed up for AP classes next year etc.

She doesn't MIND that kind of work herself - probably enjoys it more than rigorous academics. However it isn't exactly helping her compete with a global labor force of millions of Indian and Chinese children taking technically demanding courses in 250 day per year schools. So yes there is definitely a problem.

[Marie26]

38. Does this remind anyone of those little "War on Christmas"

ancedotes?

[bloom]

44. Exactly

I can imagine that a teacher praised a student for decorating her notebook with feathers and glitter. I can't imagine that all students - boys and girls - would be expected to decorate with feathers and glitter.


To believe this based on the say so of one disgruntled student who has a lawyer father who filed a lawsuit for him - doesn't seem very sensible.

(I can see O'Reilly making hay out of it anyway - though - and he probably will).

[AngryAmish]

47. Anecdotes maybe

But the statistics are there.

[Marie26]

48. The feather & glitter statistics? n/t

[bloom]

67. LOL

:rofl:

[Hello_Kitty]

58. Yep. n/t

[progdonkey]

69. almost to a T...

I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that, assuming the kern of the story is true, that this was part of a system where the students were given numerous options for extra credit, including typing up their notes and decorating their notebooks. They're rewarded for doing them but not penalized for not doing them. The little twerp thinks it's unfair that one of the things is (admittedly) much more appropriate for girls, so in his mind he thinks this is another example of the school being biased towards girls. That's how most of those WoC anecdotes turned out (those that weren't just pulled out of O'Reilly's falafel).

Of course, I'm just speculating on assumptions. :evilgrin:

[redqueen]

75. Yes, definitely. If there really IS an issue with boys' learning styles,

which I suspect very well may be happening... cases like this and examples like this harm that cause more than help it.

[alarimer]

15. Schools have ALWAYS been that way

Sit down, follow orders, meet deadlines, etc. Gee that sounds like about every single fucking job I have ever had. How about they are traing kids for REAL LIFE? You fuck around on the job, you get fired.

That thing about the feathers though is ridiculous. But that proves only one teacher is an idiot, not that the whole system is broken.

[Yupster]

24. I don't agree with you there

Having gone to the school in the Sixties and Seventies, I can say there have been major changes to the way students are taught.

One major change is the reduction in recess time and gym time.

Also the way gym is now taught is very different than the way it was taught 30 years ago. Thirty years ago gym was much more a place where boys would throw things at each other, chase each other, etc. Today it is much more a place where health concerns and sportsmanship are taught. These changes are fine, but it must be recognized that the chances for boys to run around are very much reduced from where they once were.

Also, zero tolerance policies make the normal games that we used to play on the schoolyard like pointing sticks at each other and saying bang, cause for suspension. In fact, just running on the schoolyard is now cause for discipline sometimes.

Another concern is the dissapearance of men from the elementary schools. As someone else above pointed out, minority boys are having particular troubles. I would say a partial reason for this is that you have a community with a 70 % or more illegitimate birth rate. So the boys have no dads at home. Then they go to school every day and the only men they see are the custodians. That's got to be a bad thing.

I would also point to the increased use of behavior modifying drugs as another problem with boys tody. Someday we'll find out all the side-effects of those drugs and we'll see all the damage we've been doing to our boys.

Thirty years ago, girls were lagging in the schools. Society stepped up and made many changes to the way girls were taught and the results today are very satisfying. But now boys are lagging more than the girls were. So is society going to step up again?

I guess we'll see.

[sendero]

13. I believe in ..

... "reverse sexism" (that is, sexism against men) more than most progressives - but I can't get behind this guy's point.

So, boys are punished for not following the rules, even if the case can reasonably be made that it is harder for them - too effing bad. Be a man, do what you have to do. In class, do not be disruptive and expect to get a pass because you have testicles. That is ridiculous.

[meow2u3]

26. More boys break the rules than do girls

That's why the boys get punished for breaking the rules. No, all boys do not naturally rebel against rules, only the assholes with equally asshole fathers.

What this spoiled macho brat wants is to put himself, and boys, above the rules girls are expected to follow.

[Yupster]

28. I think if you will look at what type of boys are

currently in jail, I think you will find that something that correlates very closely is the lack of a father at home, not having an asshole father at home.

It's also true that boys break the rules more, but please realize that the rules have changed over the last 30 years since I was in school.

Things that were considered normal boy things to do 30 years ago are now violations of the rules. And with no tolerance policies, they can be major violations when before they were just normal kids running around.

[Xithras]

30. Exactly, the "rules" have gotten stupid.

Were you aware that in many districts playing TAG is now banned? Apparently it caused too many injuries and is too violent (because they physically smack each other when tagging). A friend of my sons, in elementary school, recently got a 5 day suspension for firing a spitwad at another kid...they considered it "physical assault". When I was firing spitwads 25 years ago, getting caught meant an hour of detention and maybe some extra homework! When a boy in my sons scout pack hocked a yellow one onto the side of a building, he was tossed out of school for a day and put on lunchtime detention for several days. When I was a kid, the punishment was that you were forced to clean it up (which was gross enough to teach you not to do it again).

No reputable researcher believes the old 70's mantra that boys and girls are the same, and that gender differences are all socially trained. We understand today that there are fundamental biological differences that alter the way boys and girls perceive their world and react to it. Boys are biologically programmed to take more risks and be more impulsive than girls are, and roughhousing has been identified as a developmental trait of ALL non-solitary mammal species.

So the problem isn't just that the boys wont obey the rules, it's that the rules are written in such a way that they conflict with natural behaviors that were permitted up until the last couple of decades. There was this belief that if GIRLS didn't need to do that stuff, neither did boys...and modern research shows that belief to be false. The sad side effect, of course, is that boys growing up in these schools quickly come to perceive them as stifling, draconian environments where you're punished every time they try to do anything fun or funny. This causes boys to lose interest in school and gives them a substantially higher risk of failing academically. Since the rules are generally written to accommodate female behavior, girls are far less likely to be punished or alienated in that kind of environment, allowing them to succeed in greater numbers than boys.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

60. So boys should be allowed to knock over kids, throw spitballs etc?

Personally, I don't want my kid constantly assaulted by your kid just so your kid doesn't feel "stifled"

Because guess what? I think my kid's learning would suffer if they had to deal with old-school type bullies.

This is a real problem, but this is not an answer.

[AngryAmish]

85. On the playground they should be allowed to knock each other over

It is called roughhousing. Boys do it. It is not a crime.

Bullying is another kettle of fish. But there is a qualitative difference between roughhousing and bullying.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

88. Nope, see the line is quite fine.

How often is bullying passed off as "well, kids will just be kids".

[mondo joe]

92. I don't want kids bullied or knocked over - but we have a portion of the

student body who simply are more rambunctious and these days lack outlets for it. Most - but not all - of them are boys.

We thought one of my daughters might have ADD until we talked with enough other parents to learn she was just acting like all their sons do. She doesn't have ADD - she's just a lot further at the end of the spectrum usually occupied by boys.

She's very smart, she's a good student, and a hard worker. But she has the wiggles and if she doesn't have an outlet for it, it screws up her behavior.

I don't have any sons - but I'm VERY sympathetic to this situation.

[bloom]

97. While I think this lawsuit

is beyond stupid -

I can see where it could be a helpful thing - if students who have ADD, ADHD, Aspergers, etc. (of either sex - though it apparently affects boys more) had assignments that were more structured - that had faster turnaround.

Heck - maybe this kid has something and doesn't know it. It happens.


Actually having Asperger type of kids to compete with - if they are like my daughter - could totally throw off the curve for everybody else. She can get so focused on a subject and expend so much energy on it - that for SOME things (ie. math) - she is way out there. For other things - the kinds of things that many girls excel at - writing for instance - she wouldn't do as well.


I think the idea of making things equal for everyone is crazy. I would expect that the school systems with more resources are better at accommodating various learning styles/problems. That would be one reason that it is the poorer districts where more of the students have more problems. Expectations would be another.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

116. Perhaps a way to channel that energy properly

But I doubt "spitballs" are the way to go.

Thanks for your post, it helped me to understand.

[Odin2005]

21. This kid is ful of shit

I do think boys are at a disadvantage, but it has to do with peer pressure, the stigma of being a "nerd" affects boys more than girls in my experience.

[Hello_Kitty]

36. Good point.

Guys keep other guys down in their Lord of the Flies homo-social structure.

[stepnw1f]

41. I'm a Guy and I Have to Agree

It's one reason guys make fun of those seeking a college education as being wusses. Drag down technique used by those too afraid to try.

[bloom]

51. Boys can be afraid of the nerd thing

and too many girls become obsessed with pleasing the boys - not being too competitive.

One of the things I always tried to stress to my son - and it seemed to work - was that in the long run - the girls would be more impressed with a guy with smarts - play sports if you want to - but it's not going to count in the long run.

And with both of my kids I wanted them to enjoy learning and take responsibility for their own goals and accomplishments.

One of the worst things about this - besides being stupid - is it's one of those things where the lawyer father seems to be trying to teach his son to be irresponsible. That the problems of your own creation can be fixed by filing a lawsuit. Seems like the attitude of a criminal to me. Parents don't help their kids by doing this.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

63. Yes, I agree.

[Triana]

25. so abiding by the rules *isn't* OK but NOT doing so IS?

:wtf:

He thinks that boys should be allowed to break the rules, but girls should not eh - or at least that boys should not be punished for breaking rules? This kid is whacked in the head. He's a Republican in a kid suit. A rightwing extremeist in the making. The mysogenists get younger by the year, don't they?

If boys are falling behind in school I think it's because they CHOSE to. Maybe too many of them want to be like GWB. Dumb as a brick. Isn't that what our government is promoting now? That intelligence is "elitism" and being stupid is cool? Whatever. That seems to be the M.O. for today's macho "heros" - you know, like Schwartzenegger. A meathead.

I think he needs his ass kicked, personally, and told that he is expected to follow the rules too, and to get punished if he does not, and to take responsiblity for his own future (instead of blaming OTHERS when HE doesn't).

[caligirl]

31. Anyone applying to colleges recently has seen the stats favoring girls.

In fact at many colleges if not most they seem to admit or accept a significantly higher number of girls to boys.

[Marie26]

52. Many liberal-arts colleges have actually

started a reverse affirmative action for men to get more male students.

[bloom]

65. I wonder if it is really a "status" issue

Like if plumbers, electricians, and constructions workers and such got 4 year college degrees - would they be happier?

Or if teachers and nurses got on the job training and went to trade school instead of college - it would save them a bunch of money and even things out?


As it is - on average - men with "some college" make more than women with a bachelors,

Men with a bacholors make more than women with masters, etc.


What do you think?

[boobooday]

33. Wow. The system favors those who know how to play

the obedience game.

What a shocker.

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that as the teacher-to-student ratio becomes more and more unmanageable, the system will naturally reward the most docile students.

This is a lesson girls learn very early. And the fact that it is being reinforced at school (even though they are "rewarded" for it) doesn't bode well, in my opinion.

Okay girls, in order to make things more fair, we need to see you causing some serious trouble!

[Yupster]

103. Just a quick note to tell you that class sizes are today

much, much lower than they were when I was going to scool in the sixties and early seventies. We were the baby boom. We sat on the radiators and on the floor and at the teacher's desk. Anywhere to crowd that 35th kid into the classroom until the new school could be built.

There was no such thing as 22-1 goals and ratios back then and there was no such thing as a teacher's aide either.

And we all had pocketknives, and we all chased each other around the playground and shot each other with sticks, and the kids were much better behaved than they are now even with zero tolerance.

[Hello_Kitty]

34. Nonsensical statement

"...girls are rewarded for abiding by the rules, while boys' more rebellious ways are punished"

Ummm....abide by the rules and stop being rebellious then. :shrug:

Looks like he's already been indoctrinated into the Blame Everything On Your Y Chromosome And Expect To Be Indulged school of thought, where people just wink and smile at disruptive boys while girls are expected to conduct themselves like proper ladies. Boo hoo...

[pinniped]

39. Everyone knows this is what makes you smarter.

--
Among Anglin's allegations: Girls face fewer restrictions from teachers, like being able to wander the hallways without passes, and girls are rewarded for abiding by the rules, while boys' more rebellious ways are punished.
--

Nice examples, Einstein.

Stupid little turd, I hope he doesn't make it to Holy Cross.

[pitohui]

40. oh boo hoo

what a little tin nazi, girls are advantaged because they are genetically better at decorating fuckin notebooks, what the fuck?

what's next, gays are advantaged because they're better at decorating fuckin notebooks?

why doesn't he just siddown and do his damn homework

no pity here

he can't be arsed to follow the rules but wants the same privileges and grades as those who do?

what a moran

[Hello_Kitty]

43. Couldn't have said it better myself! n/t

[redqueen]

54. Good.

It's about time we had this discussion.

I'm all for looking into other methods of teaching that would be more amenable to males' learning habits...

But changing the rules for them because they're 'naturally' incapable of following rules?

Seriously? :wtf:

[SmokingJacket]

59. Boys spend too much time on sports and video games.

The school system favors those who do their work. Sheesh!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

61. This country doesn't value education, look at the president.

If republicans believed that kids emulate the president so much (kids started having oral sex because Clinton did), why are they not concerned that today's kids won't care about academics and want to swagger around like wanna-be cowboy thugs?

[Caria]

76. And try to pass off "Creationism" as a science

First of all, you are quite right to point out the anti-intellectual climate this WH promotes. You don't like the results of this study? Change the conclusions! Order a few more studies!

Is it any wonder that teenage boys don't see the benefits of education? It is widely known that the president got mediocre grades. College drop-outs Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, & Rush Limbaugh leapfrog over qualified journalists for the best jobs and highest salaries. Sports stars are skipping or leaving college and heading straight to the major leagues.

Hey does anyone else here remember the outcry when a number of all male high schools and colleges went coed in the 1970s? Admitting girls was supposedly going to drive DOWN the academic standards. Everyone "knew" that girls just weren't smart enough for these elite all-male, mostly-white, hallowed halls. Now the complaint is that the girls are doing too well!

[knitter4democracy]

66. *sigh*

He reminds me of a student I had. A class-A jerk who would scream in my face if he disagreed with a grade and whose mom would agree with him no matter what. His rule was that he couldn't talk to me while standing closer than two floor squares, and he couldn't even follow that (I was preggers at the time and was worried he would hit me).

Life's tough. Maybe those girls face fewer restrictions because they've proven themselves to be trustworthy. Maybe he should consider actually following the rules (which aren't bad, I'm sure) and see if that helps him.

Remember what this is all about: COLLEGE and MONEY. He's all worried that he won't get into the college he wants to get into (for whatever reason, but it's usually because it's the fad this year and he thinks it'll help him get a fancy job down the road). Instead of reading the material and working to make sure that he jumped through the hoops to get the grades he wanted, he wants to scream and cry now to get what he wants. I taught way too many students like that, and they and their parents are the main reason I don't teach in the schools anymore.

[Hekate]

70. Whine: "And they'll only have babies and stay hooooome"

The K-12 education system is actually wrapped pretty tightly around boys' developmental needs. (Please note I am speaking of children in the statistical aggregate; there are plenty of exceptions.)

Boys typically start out less verbal than girls, so lots and lots of time is earmarked for making sure they learn how to read, write, and spell competently in the early grades.

However, girls are considered defective for not catching on to math as rapidly or in the same manner as boys do. Requests to modify educational methods on their behalf are brushed aside as feminist demands that will only cost time and money.

Boys typically are more squirmy and antsy when it's time to sit still and listen, so lots of time is allotted to modifying their behavior. Girls are developmentally more able to sit quietly at an earlier age, but rather than being actively rewarded they are simply overlooked while the teacher deals with the boys.

Computer rooms get filled with enthusiastic, jostling boys. Is this because they are inherently more talented than girls, or could it have something to do with the type of learning games installed? Upon investigation, it turns out that the "default student" is male, so the programs are heavily weighted toward competitive and shoot-em-up games. Girls shine when equally intellectually challenging but more "nurturing" and co-operative programs are installed.

Women used to be excluded outright from colleges and universities or admitted in only token numbers, regardless of their academic attainments or potential. With the advent of affirmative action, they have caught up and are now overtaking young men in that regard, despite continuing discrimination (whether conscious or un-) in favor of young men.

And nooooow the backlash. Interesting thing about white males and affirmative action (because it's going to come back to that, isn't it?): in the University of California system, for instance, if all admissions were made entirely and blindly on "merit" it wouldn't be whites who would benefit, it would be Asian-Americans.

Whites who are trying to eliminate all affirmative action programs because of so-called quotas (there are no quotas; they are illegal) are actually making a not-so-subtle demand FOR quotas -- for themselves. The pie can't be divvied up "fairly" because all the pie belongs to them, the white males and their sons, and only secondarily to their daughters, and not at all to everyone else.

Yeah, I know I'm ranting by now. >rant off<

Hekate

[Hello_Kitty]

73. And quite impressive ranting if I do say so.

:yourock: :applause:

[redqueen]

77. Thanks for ranting.

I'd read about this problem and was under the impression that teaching styles had been tailored to females' learning styles. Interesting to know this may not be the case after all.

Thanks again.

[knitter4democracy]

96. Thank you!

When I taught at a girls school right out of my teaching college, I was amazed at how different it was. The environment was far more nurturing, and the students were handled much differently.

Then I went to a co-ed school, and I watched my male students talk over the girls, ignore them, and even tell them to shut up right in front of me--and the girls let it all happen. I went postal, and I was then labeled the feminazi teacher. That's when a couple of the boys decided to try to get me fired.

Of my two AP sections, one had more girls in it, and the boys in it did their best to transfer out, since they didn't like being in the minority. The section with more boys in it was my worst class that year. They consistently didn't read the books, bragged about it, even, and turned in crap. When I graded it how I said I would, they had their lawyer parents come in to argue the grade or called up the principal and spread lies to get me fired.

Trust me, the boys are not the poor things people are trying to make them out to be. Some boys are at a disadvantage, that's true, but most are privileged more than is right and scream the second even a bit of that is taken away from them.

[Yupster]

104. If the boys were looking for an AP class

with more boys in it than girls, they're probably still looking.

[knitter4democracy]

112. That was the second section.

The sex ratio was skewed because of their math class schedule. My second section was more boys than girls.

[lolly]

99. Brava, brava.

I need to save that post!

And, by the way, you're right about quotas. They were originally used at high-end schools like Harvard to keep Jews out (women, of course, weren't even considered at this point). Jewish applicants had higher gpa's and test scores, so the admissions departments set up quotas--no more than a certain (very small!) percentage of admitted students could be Jewish.

On edit--I guess that should be "brava," not "bravo."

[Yavin4]

72. Boys Are Doing Poorly in School Because of Video Games

Boys play video games at a far higher rate than girls, and as a result, their academics are suffering. In fact, it's the more intelligent boys that probably play these games the most.

Every hour playing a video game is one less hour studying.

[Yupster]

107. Regardless of why boys are doing poorly

What are the schools going to do to change this situation?

Having millions of unhappy, uneducated boys turning into angry uneducated men is not in anyone's interests, especially girls and women.

[KamaAina]

79. Well, obviously the system is favoring girls!

How else would you explain the near-total dominance of females throughout American society, from Fortune 500 boardrooms right up to Congress? :sarcasm:

[SurfRidem]

80. Girls are smarter than guys...

Just ask my wife.

[Mojorabbit]

98. It is true LOL

Girls ARE smarter than boys. And it is not a pleasant thing for most males to handle. A big long known secret. Still it is sad that it has come to this.

[Yupster]

108. Yeah boys sure are stupid -- ha, ha , ha

You're a real comic.

Have any equally funny things to say about African-Americans, Jews and the disabled?

I bet those would be a hoot too.

[Mithras61]

84. Two comments on this topic...

1) This PARTICULAR story seems to be a B.S. claim based on the way it is reported. There may be more to the story than what is being reported, but based on what IS in it, it certainly appears to be baloney (that is, no face validity).

2) The principal at the school that my son attends (6th grade) has personally told me that the current structure of education in the school is built around the needs of FEMALE students. This is not to say that MALE students aren't capable of doing well, but rather that it focuses on the GIRLS needs rather than the BOYS. This school uses a MODIFIED curriculum and class structure from that used by most other schools in my area. This school focuses its efforts at pushing the students from the more nuturing environment of the feeder schools (grades K-4) and moving them towards the needs of the next shool (grades 7-8). The MAJORITY of 10- (in 5th grade) and 11-year-old (in 6th grade) boys in this school have difficulties with the curriculum and the demands placed on them during the two years that they attend here. The girls and the 11- (in 5th grade) and 12-year-old (in 6th grade) boys do fine overall, with the boys having to work harder to keep up. By the time they move to 7th grade, the majority of these students have acclimated to the new demands and all of them thrive in the next grade levels. The majority of students from this series of schools indicate intentions to attend college, and the schools work hard to prepare them (very few of those who want to go on to college REQUIRE junior college to advance, but some attend it to get a leg up on admissions). Does this make unreasonable demands on my son? Maybe. It's hard to say. He does well enough when he doesn't space out his homework or projects (he has ADD, and the attendant organizational & planning issues). Would I consider filing a lawsuit over it? Not a chance. Do I think some school systems focus more on the needs of the girls than on those of the boys? I suspect that they do, but it's often a means to an end (making the girls more competetive in educational opportunities).

Anyway, my point is that sometimes schools do what this boy is alleging, but I tend to believe that if he really has educational difficulties, they are probably mostly self-induced or not the responsibility of the school system to treat (like ADD/ADHD). Waiting until the end of the 12-year school career to decide that this is a problem for him is silly. Where was Daddy when junior was struggling way back in 5th grade? I hired a tutor I couldn't afford to help my son out, why didn't he? He can most likely afford it based on the demographics of the area & his occupation.

[barbaraann]

91. The public secondary schools favor athletes of both sexes.

Learning has become secondary to athletic competition.

[NashVegas]

93. I Started to Write a Sympathetic Post

And then I read the full story.

This kid is suing for the right to slack off and be rewarded for it. Who does he think he is, George W. Bush?

[kath]

94. Perhaps if parents would apply DISCIPLINE in the raising of their boys,

and actually expect them to listen to their parents the way daughters are expected to listen and comply, then boys would do better in school and in life.
Instead, many parents *expect* boys to be wild and undisciplined - saying things "he's all boy" when the boy is acting wild and out of control and they do not really make a consistent effort to establish discipline and parental control - and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Yupster]

105. I think the world would be a lot better

if so many boys were not being raised in homes without dads.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

95. Kid needs an ass kicking not a lawyer

Sorry but if that was my kid....

[mitchum]

100. Whiny little punk hiding behind his father's pinstripes

no sympathy for this piss ant

[nemo137]

102. I agree with the poster upthread who talked about male teachers

While I'm not arguing for all-male, all-male taught schools, I will say that the guys in my graded bonded with the male teachers we had, and it was a great experience. My history and econ/psych teachers are two of my greatest role models.