N. Korea Urges U.S. Pullout From S. Korea

[cal04]

North Korea on Sunday accused the United States of seeking to start a new war on the Korean Peninsula, vowing to boost its own military and calling for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from South Korea.

"Dark clouds of war are hovering over the Korean nation, (which) is ardently yearning for reunification," said an editorial in the North's official Korean Central News Agency and three state-run newspapers. "It is the real intention of the U.S. not to hesitate to plunge the Korean nation to nuclear catastrophe."

North Korea often issues policy directives in New Year's Day editorials

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1460689&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

[Pavulon]

1. So Ronrey

This message brought to you from a kidnapped Japanese woman...

(Team America Ref for title, I am no longer drunk..)

[Bushy Being Born]

2. Yeah right.

Our presence there is an important measure against their version of "reunification" ever happening. I do not want to see DPRK try to reunite the country on their terms, than you very much. Sorry Kim, we're in it for the long run, and with a better administration in charge, we will someday prevail.

[sweetheart]

3. what?

Are you kidding?

After the end of world war 2, the United states administrated south korea
through the japanese, not de-nazifying like they did in europe. Well, this
lead to a deeeeeply unpopulare sygmun rhee government that had the north
NOT invaded, would have surely fallen leaving korea all communist for the
failure not dissimilar to iraq in the proportions of post-war administration
of a state.

So the korean war was exacerbated by the United states keeping in power some
heinous war criminals in asia, and after the outset, that war was fought
by the US against china on korean soil to see who had the will and manpower to
defend their borders against another imperialist on the korean peninsula.

And yes, it was an aggressive war that failed that gives you such charming views on
north korea, much like how we wage failed aggressive war ourselves, and we reside
then in a moral murk. Then you can make a statement about a nation that has not
attacked anyone for over 50 years and a nation that has, on an annual basis waged
imperial war.

The korean occupation is a failure. YOu should go there, and live there for while
as a civilian, like i did, and then you'll get a better picture of that stupid
occupation and the racist paranoia that drove the domino theory and the blindingly
ignorant actions of US geopoliticains in east asia.

[Pavulon]

4. The UN provided support and troops

for the Korean war. China's influence and the influence of communism nations can not be ignored.
The communist north flew russian jets, fired russian weapons, and used russian tanks. N. Korea invaded first and killed thousands of innocent people.

North Korea has waged a war against south korea, including killing citizens. They are oppressive to their people and a relic. They are a starving beggar nation while south korea and japan have strong economies. They are like E. Germany, they contain their people because the great communist state is a myth.


Revisionist history is scary. My enemies enemy is not my friend..

[julianer]

5. Happy 1955!!! n/t

[sweetheart]

6. not disagreeing

The regime is deplorable. But the ring of paranoia that a 50 year peace is
ever again going to be broken between the korean peoples is what i'm on about.
The war makers are wearing US uniforms protecting us from the domino theory's
simplicity.

We no longer should be in south korea. That is the point. Like with iraq,
the absence of an occupying army will make for a more easily facilitated aggreeemnt.

The north korean invasion was a tragic failure of US intelligence (another amongst
a litany of errors). To think that the chinese wouldn't enter the war when we pushed
to the Yalu river was absurd, and after that, the war really was nothing to do with
north koreans anymore. It was chinese regulars shooting at ameircan ones with a few
koreans and british about.

Korea is a grownup nation now and can deal with its own internal problems. The US
military is deeply unpopular in supporting some mass murders under the civilians regimes
in the south, in cheju island and in kwangju in the south. THe US administrators have
been directly involved with mass murders, putting down rebellions with a wink of an eye,
ethnic cleansing done fast and dirty. The good guys and the bad guys are not so clearly
demarked on the korean peninsula as they are in US revisionism.

Reunifcation will happen faster when the US withdrawls its imperial claim, its army, and
its pretentions to a war that is so old, that in a few decades no living ameircan will
remain from that conflict... so when can we call it a wash?

[Pavulon]

9. NK

Invaded the SOUTH. Invasion of the north is a logical step in a war. The US actions after ww-2 rebuilt nations and, imho, prevented future wars by creating wealth.

Reunification will happen when the North "tears down its wall", and allows free flow of people and ideas. Until they do that they are going to remain a starving beggar nation surrounded by prosperous nations created by US post ww-2 policy. (china not included, but they do seem to be becoming a powerful market force)

[sweetheart]

13. invasion of the north, the 38th parallel, the 36th parallel

The US army cringes when it hears the word "parallel". In one war they
shouldn't have crossed one, and in another they should have. The leader
in the second war was a child during the first one, realising the mistake
of crossing the 38th. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/38th_parallel_north)

Let's first though, recapitulate the origins of the korean conflict.

In 1908, the united states settled a conflict between russia and japan
by giving japan korea and manchuria. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root-Takahira_agreement)
Japan then spent the period subsequently occpying korea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Occupation_of_Korea
They turned the imperial palace in seoul into a zoo, putting animals in to the korean imperial symbol to
show what their race represented in the eyes of their japanese "superiors". After this seriously ugly
and criminal war crime of abuse across the koorean peninsula until 1945, the mistake of the americans leaving
japanese administrators in power after the war was wrong, stupid, bremner-like.

So, china, having endured a similar occupation from a foreign imperial power
that invaded it from the korean peninsula, realized that the military mistake
was allowing the enemy to gain foothold, or establishing clearly at cost of
all out war, the defensibility of china from the americans who wanted to nuke
her. The United states came closer to nuclear war in the broken run of the
8th army from the yalu river than during the cuban missile crisis. The safeguards
of today were not in place, and macaurthur was gonna lay a line of radiation
across north china, in a belt to discourage participation... but he was up against
the sheer number of weapons he would need to proceed with such an act... and
truman cuffed him.

But the first foreign power to attack was not the americans, and we inherited the
original sin of the japanese. China was guaranteed to enter the war when we pushed
to the yalu river. It was a huge tactical mistake. If a huge russian army was marching
up the baja california, having defeated mexico in war, would the united states wait to
be invaded before entering the confict with its military? Would we simply wait at the
california border for the russians to attack? China was faced with a similar call, and
the ruse that the war was really "korean" is what is ironic. It really was by japan,
the US, china and russia... and gosh i can understand why koreans could distrust
foreigners. Its hardly been pleasant.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_war#Korean_War_.281950-1953.29

[MrPrax]

8. Being a "relic" of the cold war..

isn't exclusive to 'commie' regimes--cold war mythology seems to be also a 'relic' cherished in many American quarters.

Don't forget Castro too!!! :eyes:

[Pavulon]

10. Binary

People can not leave North Korea. North korea is an oppressive state that controls media and communication.

Cuba is a different story. They are still containing their people and no one defects to cuba. No boats with people trying to improve their lives leaving miami for cuba.

However any state that does not allow free movement of people and ideas victimizes its citizens.

That idea supersedes the cold war and is cortical for nations to thrive and people to live happy and peaceful lives.

[Selatius]

16. Who here states North Korea isn't totalitarian?

Who here said that? Yet you keep pounding the message as if the implication here is that people don't know Kim is authoritarian. He's a dictator claiming socialism as justification for his iron-fisted rule. There's no dispute there. As a moderate libertarian socialist, he represents everything I am absolutely opposed to. It's people like him who rounded up people like me and had them shot in places like Spain and Russia because we opposed their power.

However, I would say if the South Koreans want us to leave, then I think we should. You don't stay in somebody's house if he doesn't want you there any longer, even if that person's neighbor is a bastard. Besides, if the North attacks the South again, we could send the South arms and equipment and provide air support. They already possess US warplanes and tanks and missiles, which have far more capability than what the North has, which is old Soviet-era equipment that's almost 20 years out of date.

[Pavulon]

17. The request is from NORTH KOREA.(nt)

[Selatius]

19. Reread my post

I was mentioning South Korean sentiment with respect to US troops in their country, and the citizens of the South are steadily growing more unhappy with our presence. I could give a crap what Pyongyang says.

[Pavulon]

21. The South has

made no request for the US to remove its forces. If it did we would have no choice but to leave.

[Selatius]

22. The government has not, but the people are growing unhappy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2634911.stm

[sweetheart]

23. There is dirt

Do you think that a fascist regime posing as a democratic government would survive
the US leaving? The us is still formally the "ruler" of korea by the state of forces agreement
in that no act can take place without the approval of the military attache. There really have
been several thousands of disappearances and bad police state stuff from the domestic terrorism
arm of the korean forces. The country is at a state of war, and this has justified an absolute
totalitiarianism in south korea, where there the rippples of cold war thinking have created
a mee-too asian tiger that exported its way to wealth. This wealth ensures certainly that
no further war will come on korea. That part though is hidden subsidies of the cold war, the
US propping up a government that until the 80's was a failing economy... that it looked like
life, for a period, might even be better in the north.

Its the problem with regime shifting, much as in today's romania. The corrupt regime and
all the "complicit" baathists of romania, those who gained power and wealth through connections
to that regime, then are now the economic powers in today's romania... and that corruption,
is across the whole fabric of social life. The theives have already raided the treasury and
carted off all the goods to their mansions. ONly the leader is tried and executed, and afterwards,
everyone whispers that things still arn't quite right... that only death will settle the real score.

[Pavulon]

24. S. Korea

holds democratic elections. They export goods to the US and asia. People protest by the tens of thousands and are allowed to do so by the government. People I have met who lived and worked in the South in a variety of jobs have never categorized it as a police state.

Communication and immigration are free in S. Korea. North Korea played a shell game with us and is unhappy the money stopped flowing. This happened in the late 90's.

I do not know enough about Romania or the other former soviet block to discuss it.

I will be happy to read any creditable link about the South Korean government killing its citizens.

There are plenty about the North.

[sweetheart]

27. There is a state of war

continuously declared since the 1950's. People are very aware that to be publically dissenting is
a sure path to social exclusion. Citizens cannot convert currency abroad. The industries have price-lists
and there is no serious competition.

After the korean war, 32 familes divied up the reconstruction spoils, and this is the chaebol, and the
root of all the korean economy. This group planned their economy intensively, and some groups like samsung
are quite successful. Others are no better than failed state enterprises.

I am pointing out, however, not that south korea is morally worse or better than the north, but that the
US is not thrown out, for lots of rreasons of the upper classes in keeping their imperial gains. South
korean elections have gained in authenticity in more recent years, but the country is still ruled by the
military in a state of war emergency. That is the behind the scenes fact, i suppose you like singapore as well.
There is an efficiency to a military razor that civilian institutions don't provide.

The korean people are all good people. THe nation states and teh rulers are dodgey.
They, none of them are morally the pinnacle you're singing to.

The US marines landed a ship in korea in the 1870's as gunboat diplomacy to force korea to
open up its economy. The ship got stuck in the han river mud, and the local people killed
all the marines. That was the first meeting of america and korea. There is a lot that is
forced in that relationship, and even abusive husbands get a free ride for way too long.

[Pavulon]

28. Yes

But S. Korea is free to ask us to leave at any time. The US is not the british empire. S. Korea cost the us billions to prop up during the cold war. Imperial nations take resources from host nations. We do not take from s. korea. No tea there.

I have not said they are bad people, they are oppressed. They can not leave. The border guards face north, not south.

South korea is not a police state.

Singapore is not the same as s. korea.

[Selatius]

31. If what she asserts is true about the South Korean gov't, then no

If the government in South Korea is, indeed, a corrupt oligarchy using elections as a sham to create the illusion of representative democracy in Seoul, then South Korea is not free to ask the US to leave because it's government is not representative of the will of the people, and the people are South Korea, not the government.

[Pavulon]

32. No link. Speculation..

I like assertions but documented facts speak for themselves. S. Korea is sovereign and can toss us at any time it feels like it.

S. Korea is not a police state. People come and go freely. Have worked with S. Koreans here and in Australia, none ever said anything close to the claims made by that poster.

[Selatius]

33. Fair enough n/t

[sweetheart]

38. It is an emerging capitalist economy

I would not contest otherwise. I spent a lot of time making sales support calls all over the place,
and met lots of business capitains and various financial operators in SK. There were pricelists set
internally between operations, subtle government particpation in corporate operations that makes the
south korean system uniquely "corporatist" in a way worth documenting.

Through friends and family in SK, i think it a lovely place... too bad about the war and
NK and all. too bad about the US army too.

I think south korea is a case study in grafted-capitalism where the participants were big powerful
clan familes that divided up the spoils. A fair study of its history shows that the peninsula has
been divided somehow between north and south for most of the last 2000 years... yet remained korea,
with various kingdoms, in its heydey, way in to manchuria.

The south korean version of the FBI/CIA, an internal secret police, are very powerful in that
country, and doubtful people talk to outsiders about that stuff very much. It is very difficult
to wage a virtual war between north korean agents and korean civilians. How to detect and apprehend
a north korean special ops soldier navigating in to south korea. This is done with TOTAL police
powers that have become normal and accepted. To speak publically in the past, about north korea,
depending on your views, coult destroy your career in SK. The freedom is within the bounds
of a cool war, when every so often live-fire is exchanged between gunboats off kanghwa island.

My friends there could not comvert financial assets abroad and could only travel by speical payments
from their corporate multinational sponsor. Maybe that's changed since the financial collapse,
i did not stick around for, in the subsequent reform of won convertability.

There have been mass civilian exterminations on cheju island and kwangju that are taboo even today
in revisionism... sensitive stuff... I'm sure the good people of korea will sort it out if they are
left alone.

[daleo]

35. Try visiting Cuba, if you are a U.S. citizen

"...any state that does not allow free movement of people and ideas victimizes its citizens."

[Pavulon]

36. Been there

on a sailboat. Lots of fun. Still think it is sad people cant come and go as they choose. I do not understand why such a great country has closed borders and state run media.

Cuba is not a threat.

[daleo]

37. Well, you're lucky then.

You must have come under one of the permissible groups. Here is a link to the document "Cuba: U.S. Restrictions on Travel and Remittances".

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL31139.pdf

Restrictions on travel to Cuba have been a key and often contentious component in U.S. efforts to isolate the communist government of Fidel Castro for much of the past 40 years. Over time, there have been numerous changes to the restrictions, and for five years, from 1977 until 1982, there were no restrictions on travel to Cuba.

Under the Bush Administration, enforcement of U.S. restrictions on Cuba travel has increased, and restrictions on travel and on private remittances to Cuba have been tightened. In March 2003, the Administration eliminated travel for people-to-people educational exchanges unrelated to academic coursework. In June 2004, the Administration further restricted family and educational travel and eliminated the category of fully-hosted travel. At the same time, remittances were further restricted so that they could only be sent to the remitter’s immediate family.

[ckramer]

14. You probably didn't know Clinton, Bush are shaking communists hand as you

speak? HAHah!


You apparently still live in the last century.

Wake up.

[Pavulon]

20. Communism, imperialism, isms

in general are not my point.

My point is that the nations that use the end of a gun to stop people from moving freely and exchanging ideas are wrong.

Some folks here can't seem to grasp the concept that the US is more then Bush.

Just because we do business in china does not mean I support their system of government. They may have MFN status but they brutally oppress dissent with military force.

[ckramer]

25. When you say they are wrong, that's just your opinion

I think every government in every nation state is politically efficient. There's always a social-economic-demographic reason such government exists. In other words, it's wrong for an outsider to say that they are wrong. That's called arrogance.

Bush basically practiced your philosophy. The result is invasion of Iraq. Tens of thousands of lives are lost because of that.

[Pavulon]

26. Sorry

Some things are wrong. Rwanda's government allowing and supporting genocide is wrong. Serbian murders, darfur murders, the list is long. Mass murder is wrong no way around that.

I do not subscribe to the idea you posted.

Call it what you will but North Korea is fucked up. What they do to their population is fucked up. East Germany was fucked up. Oppression is wrong. Should we invade, no. We have no reason to support it either.

Should the US (and others)have stepped in in Rwanda, yes. To sit by and watch is unacceptable.

Bush is lead by the oldest reason around, money and power.
Different war, different situation.

[ckramer]

29. I thought we are talking about stable sovereignties here, not the

chaotic countries in South Africa. North Korea has never been a problem in the Clinton years until Bush insulted them in his first term. Iraq under Saddam had been quiet and harmless.

Murders and civil wars happen in every corner of the world, you can call them genocide politcially. Sometimes they happened because of western powers' meddling. Mass murder is wrong, it's the culmination and irruption of a country's historical, internal conflict. But there's nothing foreigner can do about it most of the time.

Clinton or Bush should have invaded Rwanda instead of Iraq if USA was truly humanistic. They didn't. They shouldn't unless UN ask. Yet Bush has destroyed UN's reputation deliberately. US is now the UN, under the directive of one country's commander-in-chief: Bush. Sounds like a dictatorship to the world community.

[Pavulon]

30. Clinton

came close to war with N Korea. Bush is not who I would prefer to handle the problem.

However the problem has spanned many years.

The UN is a great place, however I see with the US sidestepping it in a Rwanda or Yugoslavia situation..

How this is done and by whom influences world opinion.

Bush is an idiot but not a world dictator.

[MrPrax]

7. Right Said...

Good to see some people are consistent!

:headbang:

Funny, last time I looked--South Korea doesn't look like a pushover in a land war and with the US out of the picture, the North Koreans might see negotiations as a 'face-saving' made in Korea solution.

Why people seem to think that a unified Korea is far more likely to reflect the unworkable North than the prosperous South is pure Cold war residue that isn't even logically (unless one accepts the imperialist theory--then US actions are perfectly logical)

[Deja Q]

11. Reunification? Where's Spock?

The Vulcan/Romulan thing was always a thinly veiled parallel to the Korea issue...

And if Korea uses nukes and makes one little mistake; their neighbors won't be very happy. Or if no bombs go in the wrong direction yet the resultant radiation decides not to obey the country's boundries...

It's not good either way.

[TheWraith]

12. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA No! nt

[ckramer]

15. Generally speaking, asking US pull out of Korea to me is like

asking US pulling out of Iraq - they are all morally justified.

Why should US leave so many armies all over the world?

Control, control, control...Imperialism, imperialism, imperailism...is that all?

[Posteritatis]

18. Well, that's delightfully transparent of them.. (n/t)

[Silverhair]

34. Hasn't NK been saying that every couple of months since 1953 ?? NT