Abu Ghraib figure (Lynndie) England burned in prison mishap

[Barrett808]

Abu Ghraib figure England burned in prison mishap
By Adam Tanner

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Lynndie England, the U.S. soldier incarcerated for abusing detainees in Iraq, was badly burned in a prison kitchen accident, her mother said on Thursday.

England, who was pictured holding a leash to a naked, hooded Iraqi inmate at the Abu Ghraib prison, was sentenced in September to three years for her part in the abuse scandal that sparked worldwide outrage. She is now confined to the Naval Consolidated Brig Miramar in San Diego, California.

England works in the prison's kitchen, where she suffered second- and possibly third-degree burns from being splattered with grease over her chest as she removed chickens from a tall oven, her mother, Terrie England, said in an interview.

"She was in severe pain," she said of the December 14 incident. "Everybody in the prison heard the scream."

Terrie England, who is caring for England's infant during her incarceration, faulted prison officials for not giving better treatment during a visit to the emergency room.

"They gave her nothing," she said. "When this happened I was furious. ... To think they give you nothing for pain."

(more)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051230/us_nm/iraq_abuse_england_dc

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

1. Accident? Yeah.

right.

[hlthe2b]

9. I'm sort of questioning that too....

Suppose we'll find out eventually....I feel for her kid, though. I hope she has someone reasonably sane to care for the child.

[0007]

25. It ain't the kid's fault

[hlthe2b]

30. No.. that's why my sympathy is with the child....

Such a tragic situation all the way around.

[0007]

31. A tragic situation that goes right into the White House.

[hlthe2b]

32. Absolutely....eom

[Deja Q]

124. So why did it then? No that I disagree, considering what she did...

[stop the bleeding]

2. Karma is a funny thing ....

"She was in severe pain," she said of the December 14 incident. "Everybody in the prison heard the scream."

[IndianaGreen]

11. Karma is very unforgiving

May she come back as a Muslim woman living under Sharia law in a Jihadist Iraq.

[Straight Shooter]

104. Why would you wish that upon her?

In order for that to happen, it would mean that every Muslim woman in Iraq would also be living under Sharia law.

Be careful what you wish for. Energy follows intent, and the law of unintended consequences is even less forgiving than the law of karma.

[madeline_con]

138. Or a cockroach who gets gassed. n/t

[WhiteTara]

152. do as you will and harm none

but whatever you put out comes back three fold. Be careful of your karma :hi:

[NVMojo]

20. yes it is!!!

[QC]

27. Does self-righteousness cause bad karma?

If so, a lot of people in this thread are in for a world of hurt.

[stillcool]

33. The future does not bode well....

when sentiments like these are displayed on a supposed democratic website. It makes me ill to see so many eager to villify. Don't they own mirrors?

[Peter Frank]

35. Well said...

When I read the original post I knew that there would be this kind of reaction from some. Too bad I was right.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

77. agreed.

I am often suprised by some of the mean spiritedness.

[julianer]

62. I agree

England, in her own way, is also a victim. She's certainly a patsy.

[LostinVA]

82. Reading my mind, QC

[The Stranger]

95. I don't think calling for justice against torturers brings bad karma.

In fact, the contrary is more likely true.

[Bridget Burke]

108. Wasn't she tried, convicted & sentenced?

Isn't that Justice?

If you advocate that torturers be tortured, doesn't that make you a torturer, yourself? Why not just have Sinners burned at the stake?

[The Stranger]

111. No one is advocating torture -- and she was was not tortured.

Get real. What happened to her was not the result of what anybody posts on some internet message board.

Why something extremely painful would happen to someone that inflicted extreme pain simply leads one to wonder.

[Bridget Burke]

120. And why something extremely painful happens to someone who's done no wrong

Leads others to wonder.

Smugness abounds.

[madeline_con]

139. I think it only works on actions. n/t

[northofdenali]

49. Irony from mother -

Karma from the universe.

[shanti]

64. oh yeah...

she heard the screams too. karma IS a mug, and that's the truth, ruth.

[anotherdrew]

102. this isn't karma. If she was taking Charles Graner out of the fryer maybe.

[Bridget Burke]

107. So--everyone hurt in an accident deserves it?

Have you ever visited the Burn Ward of a children's hospital?

Where did you get your definition of "karma"?

[stop the bleeding]

113. Relax - here is the answers to your questions.

1.everyone hurt in an accident deserves it? - of course not but when you start looking for trouble sometimes it ends up finding you, and yes I think that England is a scape goat - but no one twisted her arm to what she did and no matter if she was following orders - she knew and KNOWS better. A 5 year old would have known better.

2. Have you ever visited the Burn Ward of a children's hospital? - yes and it is horrible

3. Where did you get your definition of "karma"? - didn't get it here but this is a good example of what the definition is:

Karma or "Karm"(Sanskrit: कर्म from the root kri, "to do", meaning deed) or Kamma (Pali: meaning action, effect, destiny) is a term in several eastern religions that comprises the entire cycle of cause and effect. Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done and is currently doing. The effects of those deeds actively create present and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life. In religions that incorporate reincarnation, karma extends through one's present life and all past and future lives as well.

The 'Law of Karma' is central in Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, & Jainism. (These religions were formed in India). All living creatures are responsible for their karma and for their salvation (or release from samsara). As a term, it can be traced back to the early Upanishads.

The 'Law of Karma' is taught among western esoteric movements, like the Rosicrucians, as the 'Law of Cause and Consequence/Effect' <1> and, in Esoteric Christianity, as the Law being mentioned by Paul of Tarsus in the First Epistle to the Corinthians (15:55,56).

link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma

[Bridget Burke]

118. Gosh, I can link to Wikipedia, too....

At the bottom of the Karma article, you will find a link to the Just World Phenomenon. It is really more applicable to Westerners who have not seriously studied Eastern Philosophy.

The just-world phenomenon, also called the just-world effect or just-world hypothesis, refers to the tendency for people to believe the world is "just" and so therefore people "get what they deserve." .....

Studies have shown that those who believe in a "just world" may be more likely to believe that rape victims must have behaved seductively, battered wives must have deserved their beatings, that sick people must have caused their own illness, or that the poor deserve their lot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon

Relax yourself.

[stop the bleeding]

146. Please......

Studies have shown that those who believe in a "just world" may be more likely to believe that rape victims must have behaved seductively, battered wives must have deserved their beatings, that sick people must have caused their own illness, or that the poor deserve their lot.

I can go get 50 different sources for Karma, and your little rule of the "Just World" has one itsy bitsy tiny little flaw.

There are exceptions to every rule - and to say that one who believes in "what comes around goes around" endorses the behavior that you highlighted above is one step away from being an honored guest on the O'liely Factor. Of course I don't endorse that type of behavior, but to say that people who have been up to "no good" doing things that a 5 year old knows is wrong, and that person meets some unfortunate event it just makes you wonder.....

You really should not get so worked up over these things.
We are all on the same team.:patriot:

[Crunchy Frog]

3. There's some irony in there somewhere. n/t

[NanceGreggs]

4. "To think they give you nothing for pain."

My heart bleeds for your precious daughter, Ms. Englund - especially when I remember the compassion she showed her fellow human beings when they were in pain -- of course, that pain was CAUSED by your daughter, but let's not split hairs, shall we?

[Mad_Dem_X]

147. That's the sentence that stuck out for me

Oh the irony. To paraphrase what others here have said: Karma's a bitch.

[rucky]

5. Mom wants her torturer daughter to be treated humanely in prison.

that's the irony.

[Th1onein]

19. It might be ironic, but........

The level of civilization in any culture can be judged by how we treat our most helpless--that includes our young, our elderly, and our prisoners. We need not sink to the Bushbots' level.

[OzarkDem]

159. Agree wholeheartedly

No one learns from these situations if prison abuse continues. Getting decent care for her injuries may enlighten her. Even if it doesn't, the US has to hold itself to higher standards.

[The Straight Story]

164. Kind of like tookie - killing is bad if it was happening to him

He didn't show mercy then asked for it himself. Guess his karma was a bitch too :)

[951-Riverside]

6. "....To think they give you nothing for pain."

What goes around comes around lady.

[PurpleChez]

7. the experience must have been humiliating

[shenmue]

8. Yeah!

I feel no pity.

[kestrel91316]

10. Proof that the Karma Fairy is alive and well n/t

[pretzel4gore]

12. she's powerless, now and always....

the poor thing should be treated decently regardless of what she was involved in; you can tell that she never initiated anything, ever, and HOW IN HELL does it happen that a young working class WOMAN ends up doing jailtime re IRAQ! (the punks who promo'd the war, and cheered the abusers at abu gharaib and gitmo etc WILL NOT in any way champion the poor benighted kid when she needs someone to do so!...you can be certain of that; fukkem to hell!)

[LisaL]

43. Who didn't treat her decently? She spilled it on herself.

[druidity33]

72. power rules a kitchen...

the boss if he was pissing fire would make the shortest person in the line pull out the heaviest thing in the tallest space in the oven, just to see if you fucked up, so he could fire someone. Restaurant Managers (i've only worked in 3, but they were always busy and this is what i've observed) are supposed to make things go smoother, but often just create hate. I can see a prison cafeteria manager having similar power issues... i expect he/she smiled or laughed when Lyndie got hurt.

[Canuckistanian]

117. She should take personal responsibility for her actions

And not whine when the state doesn't help her out.
:sarcasm:

[pretzel4gore]

148. no providing her with painkiller, etc

the freepers probably think englund 'let down the side' by getting caught, and therefore she treated with cold indifference; it matters not that she should never have been in iraq 1st place, and if so, the top down authority should have been consistent with Geneva etc...

[FlemingsGhost]

13. Oh, the irony! My head is spinning ... I might fall out of my chair.

"She was in severe pain," she said of the December 14 incident. "Everybody in the prison heard the scream."

Yes, dear. Think of the pain. Think of the pain and the blood-curdling screams.

[BlueInPhilly]

15. She deserves our sympathy

and prayers, just like those Iraqi prisoners. Peace.

[FlemingsGhost]

17. Perhaps, but it doesn't eliminate the irony. (n/t)

Flem.

[IndianaGreen]

24. She remains unrepentant

One cannot forgive one that has not repented!

[Ben Ceremos]

50. This isn't about redemption or forgiveness...

accidents happen. As far as the comments regarding pleasure through Ms. Englund's pain; I remind all of my fellow forum participants that to take pleasure from another's pain is sadism. Bushco are sadists and when we wish pain on another human, even a "guilty" one, we participate in the emotions that make these most corrupt of politicians the human failures they so clearly are. Let's avoid the recriminations and wish Ms. Englund a speedy recovery and perhaps we could stop taking such obscene pleasure in the suffering of others?

Peace and Understanding

[shanti]

66. objectively pointing out the irony and karma is

taking pleasure in her pain? please explain that one. thank you.

[Ben Ceremos]

153. Objectively pointing out...

is actually subjectively taking an interest in her pain. Karma implies it is linked to her behavior, but Karma is a past-life account. So those who claim to be "objectively pointing out" aren't. Irony is obvious(though true irony would have her being savagely beaten and attacked by dogs while minding her own business), but to essentially enjoy the pain she suffers from the burns by implying that she somehow deserves it for being involved in the Abu Ghraib torture is quite degenerate as far as feelings go.
And several posts on this thread clearly indicate my scenario.

[Ben Ceremos]

154. Objectively pointing out...

is actually subjectively taking an interest in her pain. Karma implies it is linked to her behavior, but Karma is a past-life account. So those who claim to be "objectively pointing out" aren't. Irony is obvious(though true irony would have her being savagely beaten and attacked by dogs while minding her own business), but to essentially enjoy the pain she suffers from the burns by implying that she somehow deserves it for being involved in the Abu Ghraib torture is quite degenerate as far as feelings go.
And several posts on this thread clearly indicate my scenario.

[IndianaGreen]

71. No one is taking pleasure from Ms England's cooking accident

I just don't care what happens to her!

Her mother is as much a despicable creature as she is. You should google for some of the comments the mother made when her daughter was first charged. Talking about lack of sympathy for the pain and suffering of others, that family takes the cake!

[LostinVA]

83. Yes, they are

Using words like "relish," etc. She was inhumane to the Iraqi prisoners.. She was a patsy. She's borderline retarded. She is also lawfully incarcerated, which she should be, but relishing her pain makes us as bad as the sadists who tortured Iraqis. I don't give a damn what her stupid mom says, I only care about what the people in this thread say.

[IndianaGreen]

141. She is not a patsy and she is not "borderline retarded"

She passed her military entrance exams, so she is not learning impaired. She did what she did fully conscious of what she was doing. No one put a gun to her head and told her to engage in unlawful conduct with her sadistic boyfriend.

I am not impressed with her behaviour as a drama queen, using her negligence in the kitchen to elicit sympathy from those that should know better.

[LostinVA]

145. Yes and Yes -- you are mistaken

70-79 is borderline retardation, if one subscribes to the IQ scale. And yes, she was a patsy. She was tried, convicted, and is serving her time. She also apologized and expressed remorse in open court -- I have no magic mirror into her heart, so I have no idea whether or not she is sincere or not, but I have seen people with her background and IQ treated as the fall guy and scapegoat before, lied to and manipulated, so I'm believing her for now.


patsy
noun
chump, fool, gull, mark, patsy, fall_guy, sucker, soft_touch, mug
a person who is gullible and easy to take advantage of

[lisby]

89. There's nothing uglier

than the smell of schadenfreude, is there?

And nothing like proving we're really no better than they are.

Just think--the law of Karma also dictates that someone, somewhere is going to get to feel schadenfreude over their own misfortune.



:dilemma:

Lisby

[julianer]

63. Of course you can n/t

What is 'turn the other cheek' all about?

[TheWraith]

90. No, I'm afraid I cannot.

Sorry. I can't feel for Lynndie England. Maybe that doesn't make me a good bleeding-heart liberal, but there are some things that I just cannot blithely forgive in the absence of any and all remorse. Yes, she's a patsy, but that doesn't change the fact that this woman gleefully participated in torturing other people. I've no sympathy for her.

[Bridget Burke]

109. Thus spoke Jehovah....

As he hurled the lightning bolt.

[951-Riverside]

45. Question for you "Blue" InPhilly

What good does prayer do, I notice these RW religious types throw that around but really what does it do, I'd be delighted if you give me an honest scientific answer :)

[Ms. Toad]

85. That would be a tad hard

Since prayer, by its nature, is not scientific.

As someone with degrees in math and science and for whom faith is a central part of my life there is ample room for both faith and science. I just don't think faith (in the form or prayer or intelligent design) belongs in the school or as government policy - anymore than I believe an expression of faith requires a scientific explanation.

If you are really curious about what good prayer does, you might generate more honest discussion with a less loaded question.

[Andromeda]

54. Welcome to DU...

:hi:

[MH1]

80. Thank you, and welcome to DU!

:hi:

Glad to see another local here, and one with a gentle spirit. (I am from DelCo, near Media, not far from the City of Brotherly Love).

:patriot:

[Walt Starr]

14. Lynndie England was the Abu Ghraib patsie

She went down because she was on the pictures, even though most likely she did not participate in the truly heinous shit that went down.

She was a patsie for the government to trot out before the press to show what good guys they were going after the bad apples.

[Catch22Dem]

18. You are absolutely 100% correct (n/t)

[gulfcoastliberal]

23. So true.

The real torturers are still running things.

[saigon68]

79. THE GANG OF FOUR ARE STILL IN CHARGE



THE CHIMPANZEE



THE PRINCESS



AND THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN




THE EVIL DARK PSYCHOPATH

[QC]

26. True, and a lot of people here eagerly swallowed the propaganda. n/t

[951-Riverside]

46. Amen Walt! Torturers & Sadists are people too!

most likely she did not participate in the truly heinous shit that went down.

What makes you think that?

[Walt Starr]

86. Because, that was the testimony from multiple witnesses

both for the defense and for the prosecution.

Her assignment in Abu Ghraib had nothing to do with these prisoners. She posed for the pictures to please her lover.

[radwriter0555]

48. That's correct, & very few realize that the woman is borderline retarded

and not particularly competent; and that she was the pawn in the whole game, from start to finish, as in "let's get the stupid chick to pose in pictures for us!"

I really, honestly feel sorry for her.

[anotherdrew]

99. so true, and she should never have been near all that hot oil anyway

What a miserable country we are.

[Generator]

133. Thank you!

You get it. The venom spit at her on DU is ironic to say the least. Liberals enjoying the pain of those that gave pain that were used to be the fallguys for the real pain. Something like that. She's a pathetic woman and I, like A REAL liberal have compassion for even the pathetic among us. There is more sympathy on DU for an "insurgent" that kills a bunch of his own people than there is for England.

[Beausoir]

163. I agree with you Walt. n/t

[Raine]

16. As they say "Payback is a

bitch"

[Ben Ceremos]

155. Payback

is a human revenge idea. Accidents happen in this world and they are facilitated by ignorance, stupidity and ineptitude. Ms. Englund is being blamed for circumstantial behavior wherein she was already being abused by her superiors and used for fun and those Kodak moments. The woman is a poor unfortunate who wouldn't have done any of what she is infamous for save the situation she was placed in. It takes great moral strength to reject abuse as interrogation technique and it becomes much harder when the people who should be watching out for your interests (Granger ?)are actually abusing you for their pleasure.

[MrSlayer]

21. What kind of painkillers did she give the person on the leash?

Call me a vengeful person if you like but this is a little payback for the humiliation and torture she so happily put on others. I have little sympathy.

[truthisfreedom]

22. that's enough, people. you're making me sick. have you ever met a burn

victim?

settle down.

[FlemingsGhost]

29. Sure ... but I ain't never met a sadistic military prison guard.

I've seen pictures, though.

[truthisfreedom]

37. some people here have to make a choice: whether to be as bad as she is by

relishing her pain, or rising above and feeling compassion for anyone who is in pain.

the fact of the matter is, she is in prison doing time as punishment for her crimes. being burned horribly is not part of it.

i think doing the time is enough.

[FlemingsGhost]

38. I've chosen to relish the irony.

You have to admit her mother's quotes are priceless.

[anotherdrew]

100. WTF is wrong with you?

[Bridget Burke]

119. Check out a text on abnormal psychology.

For some, it's OK to wish that a Torturer be Tortured. Perhaps they should join up--they might get a chance, themselves!

[LisaL]

41. It was a kitchen accident.

I seriously don't think anyone attacked her with burning chicken fat.

[Ben Ceremos]

156. Dehumanizing

her isn't going to resolve the basic issues. Try to be more compassionate, it will make it easier for you to be kind to yourself and others.

[The Stranger]

96. What about meeting the prisoners that she tortured?

[Vickers]

28. Mmmmmmmm.....chicken.

Damn, I LOVE chicken.

[RebelOne]

73. Are you trying to be funny?

Because I am not laughing.

[JI7]

34. i feel sorry for her

[onenote]

36. I'm not sure which school of thought here is more foul

The tinfoil hat crowd that can't believe that Lynddie, who is basically one of life's losers, could actually manage to spill hot grease on herself, but that it was some secret conspiracy (as if there wouldn't be easier ways to harm someone in prison than causing a grease spill).

Or those that are taking pleasure in her pain. While, as I said, she is one of life's losers and its hardly surprising that she did the things she did, I still hold her responsible and think she deserves punishment. But I'm not one into the "eye for an eye" thing like some folks around here apparently are.

onenote

[LisaL]

42. The girl is a screw up, no doubt of that.

It's entirely likely she spilled the chicken grease on herself.

[gardenista]

47. well said. nt

[LostinVA]

84. Hear, Hear

[QC]

126. Good post! n/t

[sakabatou]

39. Karma must suck...

[johnny_yuma]

40. Karma is Justice

and it will come to all of us.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

44. She finally gets as good as she gave

There CAN be justice.

[ClayZ]

51. Lynndie England: IQ

Lynndie England: Oxygen Deprived at Birth

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/010572.html

<snip>
I've always thought that Lynndie England's facial features suggested Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, which can lower IQ. It doesn't surprise me to learn that she has diminished intelligence. Perhaps I work with too many clients with mental retardation, but her work history alone -- working as a bagger in a grocery store -- has always suggested cognitive problems to me.

While it is true that folks with mental retardation know the difference between right and wrong, the core issue is that of impulsivity -- essentially, that they don't learn from experience. So, they tend to do wrong things because, even though in the past they may have learned the difference between right and wrong, they don't retain that learning. This is why you find folks with mental retardation doing "wrong" things over and over again. Folks with MR also are much more vulnerable to being led by others (see, e.g., Charles Graner) into wrong actions.

Now, is Lynndie England MR? Hard to know. Had this been a capital offense, she wouldn't be exempt from execution if her IQ weren't 70 or below. Since she was labelled as "learning disabled" (which isn't dispositive because lots of times schools use this label to avoid the "stigma" of retardation and to avoid paying for the extra services that MR kids require), it's probable that her IQ is above 70, but less than 90. That would put her in the borderline MR category.

<snip>

[truthisfreedom]

52. another sad commentary on the state of the military.

i could cry.

[ClayZ]

55. I have been told about another learning disabled

18 year old who has been charmed by a recruiter. He has been in a group home for kids who have disabilities ranging from moderate to severe. He was always in Special Ed. He has now taken the test (he was told he would have no trouble passing) and I have yet to hear what happened.


This sort of practice is SHAMEFUL! The recruiter was a substitute teacher.

[Hekate]

53. I agree: Lynndie has diminished capacity and is the scapegoat

I don't often get a "flash" off people's photos (Bush is one exception), but from the moment I saw Lynndie England in the infamous "leash" photo I have felt she was a child in adult clothing, badly led astray by those above her in authority. She's not bright enough to have thought up this shit.

Without for one moment excusing her participation in these heinous acts, I still believe she is the scapegoat for crimes conceived by men she will never meet -- men who will never pay for their crimes.

This is a particularly nasty DU thread.

Hekate

[ClayZ]

58. I thought the same thing. She was never playing with a full deck,

And they made her take the fall for their TORTURE Policy! Karma is moving too slow for my taste these days. I get real tired of the victims being blamed! Lyndie is a victim, IMHO!

\


Teach the children well!

[FlemingsGhost]

56. The military is in the habit of recruiting MR candidates?

The screening process is not *that* lax, is it?

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. And what did Lyndie do to ease the pain of the tortured prisoners?

I know that sounds mean. But Mommy needs to realize Lyndie is a big girl now. She made a mistake and she is paying for it.

[ClayZ]

60. When my ex husband went to boot camp,

during the Viet Nam war. They made him, and the other recruits scream at the top of their lungs, over and over during drill..... "What is the purpose of a Bayonet? To Kill without Mercy, To Kill without Mercy!" He came out of boot camp a different 20 year old than went in. He lost 25 lbs and his happy go lucky youth. He lost his standing on his own. He came out a soldier who answered to his superiors, FIRST. He went in after his junior year in college.

Lynndie's mistake was walking into a recruiters office.


"While it is true that folks with mental retardation know the difference between right and wrong, the core issue is that of impulsivity -- essentially, that they don't learn from experience. So, they tend to do wrong things because, even though in the past they may have learned the difference between right and wrong, they don't retain that learning. This is why you find folks with mental retardation doing "wrong" things over and over again. Folks with MR also are much more vulnerable to being led by others (see, e.g., Charles Graner) into wrong actions." http://talkleft.com/new_archives/010572.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. I am a special ed teacher

so I probably understand Lyndie better than most people posting in this thread.

And I do not feel one bit sorry for her. She made a choice.

[ClayZ]

69. My Daughter is a Special Ed teacher too.

I have worked with lots of Special Ed Students as a pottery teacher. I have yet to meet one who I thought should be in the military! Am I wrong? I very well could be.

She did make a choice. She made it with diminished capacity! I am sure you know better than I, a humble ocarina maker, about such students. It is reported her IQ at 70.

Just my Opinion. I do feel very sorry for her, and her family. I believe the guys WAY up the chain of command should suffer the consequences of their charges and their orders.

BTW Teaching is the most HONORABLE profession! Thank you for your service! :pals:

[proud2BlibKansan]

101. NO I don't think she should be in the military either

but an IQ of 70 does not mean she is a moron completely incapable of knowing the difference between right and wrong.

Those pictures she posed for - I just can't get them put of my head. And I don't believe she was following orders as much as in love and wanted to please her boyfriend.

Kudos to your daughter. Yes, it is an honorable profession.

[ClayZ]

116. I can't get the "barking of the orders" out of my head.

Or maybe they "cajoled" her into those performances.

She was "in love"... however I think she was put in that place because of the likelyhood of using her as a patsy.

Why would Young Americans act that way?

The pictures are frozen in time. Does an IQ in that range make her incapable of being manipulated?

[proud2BlibKansan]

121. Her IQ doesn't make her an idiot

If it really is 70, she is perfectly capable of making decisions, solving problems and considering consequences. She likely has difficulty with expressing herself in writing and may have limited reading skills; but she is not illiterate or I doubt the army would have taken her.

Sure she can be manipulated. But so can you or I. I think that is more a reflection of emotional maturity than IQ.

[ClayZ]

130. Thanks for discussing it with me...

I have been very bothered by the entire thing.

She looked so "innocent", to me. (I mean that in the way a MR person is innocent)





Peace!

[Andromeda]

59. I hope those of you who revel in...

Ms. England's misfortune have spotless Karma of your own. It's interesting how cruel some people can be and how void of compassion some of you are.

Let's hope that when the time comes for those rejoicing in poor Ms. England's pain have to reckon for their misdeeds, that Karma is more forgiving and doesn't judge you as harshly.

[The Stranger]

97. Karma is karma -- if it is getting Ms. England, it has nothing to do with

anyone here -- it is her own karma.

[rman]

61. If this is karma, then karma is unjust,

since the real culprits remain untouched.

[anotherdrew]

103. it ISN'T karma - it's an accident - show some compasion people

karma is a complex matter, this was just an accident.

[Doremus]

67. Multiple tragedies rolled up in one disgusting thread.

First tragedy:

That Lynddie England and fellow low-level flunkies took the rap for following orders that originated from the top of the chain of command while those who gave the orders not only skated but continue to reap the benefits of their high positions.

Second tragedy:

That many otherwise intelligent people have swallowed State-sponsored propaganda that says England et al are rogue bad apples that acted independently.

Third tragedy:

That this scandal didn't serve as a catalyst to end state-sponsored torture. To the contrary, the US torture program has expanded to become a worldwide operation that one assumes is staffed by scores of Lynddie Englands, aka low-level grunts who are following orders from their superiors, and who are no more guilty -or innocent- than she was.

Fourth tragedy:

That the most evil, corrupt administration in history is still in a position of power over the people who make up the military ... and all of us.

[Danieljay]

132. Amen to that my friend! Blessed New Year to you! n/t

[symbolman]

68. *I* am BAD, or I have to have Spotless Karma to Hate this woman?

And I detest her. I do. I detest Bush and ALL the sadistic fuckers than have ruined lives and Minds, changed our society to the point where people like THEM are PROTECTED, allowed to even THINK this is something they can DO, while SPITTING in our faces and burning the Geneva Convention or wiping their asses with the bill of RIghts and the Constitution..

This person LOST her RIGHT to Humanity when she ROBBED others of their Humanity. In my opinion SHE is not what I would consider a HUMAN BEING.

It's one thing to Kill someone in defense, forgiveable, to Kill because you are retarded may be forgivable as well, to TORTURE ANYONE is simply UNFORGIVABLE.

She should have been Found a NON Human, and offered to the Corporations for use in any tests they'd use on Animals, and INSTEAD of animals for she is LESS than one.

*I* am bad, *I* have to have spotless Karma for HER sins?

Bullshit. EVERYONE makes choices, and having been in the military I happen to know the Regulations, and you do NOT have to obey an Unlawful ORDER. SHE WANTED TO DO IT. Her Choice.

My choice is that I don't consider her a Human, at all. But then I personally think that people that have committed Premediated murder SHOULD be executed, not manslaughter, but Premeditated.

And THIS was premeditated all the way from the TOP.

For the record I don't consider Bush or any of his Cronies to be Human Beings either, it is beyond their scope as well, and THEY are far less noble than any of GOd's creatures, a slug, a slime mold, a worm has far greater worth than any of them.

Do you REALLY think that people should be allowed to walk the planet and reproduce who have NO problem with torturing ANYONE? Don't you think that in a GROUP that they would make YOU NEXT?

THIS is the reason they need to be stopped most of all, for MY Self Defense, that of my wife and son.. this road LEADS to Dachau, with guards at the gate saying, "Well, it's my job.. besides, if I refuse they will send ME in the gas chamber with the Jews.."

Make no mistake about it, you put DOWN a rabid dog, or a dog that is just plain wicked and mean so that they don't KILL YOU later.

Liberals are supposed to bend over and talk about Karma while these peckerheads KILL everyone? NOT THIS KID, no way.

[ingac70]

70. I kinda feel sorry for Lyndie....

She's a backwoods dumbass that took orders from her Commander in Chief, who also happens to be a backwoods dumbass.


I'd have my eyes gouged out before I would do something like she did, but then again, I'm not cut out for the "disipline" of the military, either.

[centristo]

88. what do you mean Commander in Chief?

you ain't talking bout * are you?

[truthInCO]

92. humans

• to Kill because you are retarded may be forgivable as well, to TORTURE ANYONE is simply UNFORGIVABLE.


• She should have been Found a NON Human, and offered to the Corporations for use in any tests they'd use on Animals


• I don't consider her a Human, at all


• you put DOWN a rabid dog, or a dog that is just plain wicked and mean so that they don't KILL YOU later


• Liberals are supposed to bend over and talk about Karma while these peckerheads KILL everyone? NOT THIS KID, no way.

Simply awesome!! Let's have a beer! :toast:

[QC]

94. How does that Kool-Aid taste?

I'm sure Karl is happy to know that you bought his little patsy plan. You fret over the small players while the big guys who are actually responsible for all this shit are free to go on doing their evil with impunity.

[truthInCO]

112. Taste, or lack of

It tastes like a steaming hot mug of hypocrisy! Sing: "Can you feel the love tonight."

[rman]

162. what are you, an un-compassionate liberal?

de-humanizing humans is so un-liberal.

[symbolman]

167. I like to think of myself personally

as a Rational Liberal.. I have no problems with sexual predators having to register and neighbors being notified, but not for castration, chemical or otherwise..

Tho I think the scumbag that knocked up this England girl should have HIS scrotum unfilled..

I very simply believe that there are just plain mean and evil psychotic people that need to be removed from Society, and that if they kill with premeditation they should be executed, humanely but made to go bye bye so they never kill, maim, hurt again.. those people have already proven they are not worthy of being considered Humans, like Hitler, Mussolini, Ted Bundy, etc..

England should have gotten LIFE for what she did, as well as BUSH and his cohorts.

All you need is Love, and NO PSYCHOTIC KILLERS :)

[Ilsa]

74. Bad things happen to innocent ones all the time. I see it with babies.

I think she was a patsie, and her "boyfriend" used her like t.p. and tossed her aside.

BTW, what the hell is wrong with the prison system that they won't medicate for pain with second degree burns? And it is pathetic that the US military will accept someone like LE, knowing she isn't even close to be all there, and hand them a gun.

Those rat bastards get away with way too much.

[Ilsa]

75. Bad things happen to innocent ones all the time. I see it with babies.

I think she was a patsie, and her "boyfriend" used her like t.p. and tossed her aside.

BTW, what the hell is wrong with the prison system that they won't medicate for pain with second degree burns? And it is pathetic that the US military will accept someone like LE, knowing she isn't even close to be all there, and hand them a gun.

Those rat bastards get away with way too much.

[SOS]

98. The US gulag system

is notorious for it's grotesquely substandard healthcare. The Nation published an excellent article on this subject.
A system that will not give pain meds to someone with 3rd degree burns cannot claim to be civilized.

[symbolman]

142. My ex wife as sleazy enough to join forces in Alabama

with creatures like these -- I was thrown into their County Jail in one of the most corrupt counties in the US...

(The very one that STOLE 6,500 votes electronically by moving them from the Democratic Gov's side to the Repug side in the Middle of the night, after kicking out the media and poll workers, etc - and then claiming the Computer did it because of a lighting storm 40 miles away.. and they got away with it -- I was found "guilty" in the same courthouse, as the Judge said, "Mr Symbolman, I don't have any evidence to convict you with, but I just have this Feeling that something's just not right here, so I sentence you to one YEAR in the County Jail.." - fought it all the way to the Alabama Supreme court, lost a HOUSE over fighting this, and they refused to hear the case.. so I suffered from a little "Southern Hospitality" for 20 days with a pregnant wife waiting for me in a motel room the whole time)

While I was in there PEOPLE DIED from lack of simple health measures.. one from LACK OF INSULIN, a DIABETIC! Died in the cell I was IN..

I myself got a court order which forced them to give me pain kilers for my arthritis of the spine.. they were STEALING my meds, and anyone who's been on pain killers for a long time knows that you start to come off them and you get REALLY SICK, throwing up until you bust blood vessels in your eyes, shakes, chills, flu-like symptoms, pounding headaches, bone pain.. the works..

Now couple this with having been thrown into a LOCK DOWN cell block, where they send all the Murderers, or the Insane, or those that KILL WHILE IN JAIL having nothing to lose.

I spent 5 days in that room, laying on a concrete floor, no meds, waiting for medication that if it came was of a lower dosage and with the guards laughing in my face, while my cellmate sat there in a "dress" crying for 5 days (they actually make you wear a DRESS in jail if you are caught masturbating or are suicidal, etc)..

I've worked in TWO VA Hospitals after being drafted during 'Nam, sort of to HELP those less fortunate, those who had lost their minds from Fear, seeing death and destruction that no human should see.. and I've NEVER heard sounds at "night" (two hours of dimmed lights) as I did in that place.. howling, gibbering, shrieking.. it sounded like the bowels of HELL. I would take every piece of clothing I owned (and I mean my PANTS as well - so I was naked on the concrete), undershirts, socks and pad my ears, wrapping and tying my pants around my head -- and I STILL couldn't make those noises go away..

for 1/2 hour a day my steel bar door opened and I did laps around a steel pic nic table for some sort of exercise, indoors and STILL behind other bars.. I wore a HOLE in my big toe doing that, but had to exercise to keep in some shape, that got so infected later in jail that I nearly lost my big toe..

The Jails in Alabama have been compared to South African jails BY CONGRESS..

I was finally able to get through to my wife, by calling collect with a stolen phone card to my Bro in law in Alaska and having him call her and telling her to contact my CONGRESSMAN and My Lawyer..

SO after 5 days I was finally moved to Population where I was treated nearly like a human being, I could bathe, eat, had a rack to lay on, less noise, no one brutally insane..

MANY PEOPLE DIE in jails all day long for SIMPLE medical problems, it's a largely ignored problem.. but if THAT ain't TORTURE, I don't know what IS..

My story is a LOT more scary than I even made it out here, and luckily I only spent 20 days on a trumped up charge, but *I* can more than a lot of people realize what it might mean to be snatched as an enemy combatant and held in those conditions FOREVER, no lawyer, no one knowing WHERE you are..

BUSH is doing this, in the end it's HIS FAULT, and I blame RIGHT WINGERS for putting me in jail for NO REASON OR EVIDENCE (I had FIVE lawyers).. It can be worse than you might ever realize and *I* for one am going to FIGHT for those that have been tortured, having been in nearly the same situation short of dogs in my face..

Anyone who would do what this little MONSTER did is NOT a Human Being, like I said, they lost their Humanity when they robbed others of theirs - same goes for Bush and Bush CO.

[manic expression]

143. ......

WOW. I'm almost at a loss for words. Thank you so much for sharing your story. That was really, really insightful.

I'm really glad you're OK.

[symbolman]

157. I think I suffered from Post Tramatic Syndrome for a while

but I had a wonderful wife and a beautiful baby born after that and I feel great.. I thank you for being glad I'm okay, that's what Human Beings DO for each other, inspire them with love and caring to be better persons..

Incidentally, I was making a film about Electronic Voting then, and that Judge knew it (this was a family court case of all things), and since it was the same courthouse where the Voting Fraud took place I have a feeling I got thrown in their gulag because the judge was put in office by the Christian coalition, was a rabid right winger and my ex's lawyer was waving around my website printed out, all the progressive work I'd done for 4 years.. the judge even demanded that I take the NON Bible Oath when I said I was catholic and wanted my sons to be catholic, do the altar boy thing just like *I* did.. (Catholics are considered to be some kinds of "cult" by Fundamentalists btw)

I firmly believe this was a political jailing as I hadn't missed a single child support payment in 12 years, even while injured, nor medical benefits for my kids - had even paid for them to see a shrink and get emotional help as their mother had a criminal record an inch thick, assault, driving the kids drunk, child abandonment charges, DUIS (more than two in ONE WEEK), and my 14 year old son was smoking weed, in HER HOUSE (I had PICTURES OF IT from online) - my wife had recorded a conversation he and I had had about dope, where I was demanding a drug test, telling him it could ruin his life, etc.. they claimed I was Leading him to Smoke pot - from 2,500 miles away on the phone, jailed for THAT.. nowhere in the recording did I EVER even intimate that he do drugs. As a matter of fact HE was subpoena'd and testified that his dad would NEVER tell him to, or intimate he should do drugs - HIS testimony was SEALED by the same judge so I could not use it in MY DEFENSE.. some of the lawyers were defending me for FREE due to the insane charges, one flew from Beverly Hills, CA to do it - all to no avail..

I'd had ONE DUI in 1980 while in College, that's it, that was my record.. I don't think that judge wanted my wife interviewing the Last Democratic Govenor of Alabama about voting fraud, but that's what my pregnant wife was doing while I was suffering in their jail, and that's exactly WHY I love that women :)

I thank you for your kind spirit, we're gonna need people like you when the HUMANS take over :)

[OzarkDem]

161. Geez, Sym, I had no idea

You really were put through the wringer, all over electronic voting and a nasty ex-wife. Its a cautionary tale for any of us involved in standing up to the right wing.

Hope everything is ok now. :hug:

[Jamison]

76. 2nd & 3rd degree burns are no joke...I hope she'll be OK.

It would be one thing if we heard a story about another inmate maybe just popping her and giving her a little black eye...we could chuckle about that, but burns are serious. She is probably going to face a long and painful recovery that includes a lot of medical attention and skin grafts. Also, she'll be pretty scarred up for life.

A friend of mine was burnt in this manner by a leaking/exploding water heater, I saw what he had to go through, so I do not find this funny at all.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

78. the fall girl gets burned while the real criminals are still at large.

I feel sorry for Lynndie.

This thread is crazy, it's as if Lynndie was the mastermind behind all of the torture. It appears that those who wanted to pass off blame on that bad apple have succeeded.

[Nimrod2005]

81. Being tortured herself? by CIA agents? then went too far?

[Ian David]

87. Just a harmless fraternity prank

When Rush Limbaugh was in college, they used to dump boiling oil on the pledges all the time.

[Miss Chybil]

91. Boo fucking hoo. nt

[VegasWolf]

93. Snort! Damn you made me snort my coffee out of my nose you evil witch!

:)
:toast:

[Miss Chybil]

136. Sorry...

Not! :evilgrin:

[LibertyorDeath]

105. Maybe it was a Suicide attempt.

She is borderline retarded after all.

Death by Chicken Fat...

Go Lynndie !

This is a great freep bait thread they can't help themselves
like flies to shit.

Maybe we can start a Lynndie England apologists fan club.

[kentuck]

106. Yes, there is a karma...

for cheering the pain of others, also.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

166. indeed

as much as i want to see her in pain, I know we humans should strive for more than base revenge.

[thecai]

110. Welcome To Prison Life in America, Lynndie!

Nothing new, just the usual inmate-neglect.

[truthnproof]

114. Too good to hate your enemies.

I don't care what you kid yourselves in thinking, you aren't 'better' than the people who oppress an victimize you, you're just victims who don't have the balls to be WORSE than your enemies.

So, you'll NEVER win.

Symbolman rocks - hate your enemies - bury them - teach your kids

Otherwise, they'll jaut have your balls in a vise while you're too good to squeeze their balls.

She should be handed over to the Iraqis - PERIOD.

THAT is 'justice'.

I'm ready to make a new batch of those "I'm NOT Sorry T-Shirts" just for that dirty b*tch.

[Bridget Burke]

128. By all means, squeeze all the balls you want.

Have fun!

[thecai]

151. I Don't Stoop So Low....

...as to hate my enemies. I just hate the evil they commit, and not just to me, but to others. I also taught my children not to hate PEOPLE, just evil.
HUGE difference.
We speak OUT against inmate abuse/neglect, even tho it is nothing new in America, like B@sh pretends.

[Hobarticus]

115. So, being a "patsy" makes one not responsible for their own actions?

Bullshit. A thousand times bullshit. That's absurd. I'm not cheering over her painful burns, but the "Lynndie as Victim" schtick ain't flying. There were several soldiers who declined to particpate and asked to be transferred. She had every chance to avoid her fate. She's right where she belongs. Just because there's more people up the chain of command who belong in prison too doesn't excuse her.

[QC]

122. Nice straw man you got there!

I haven't seen one that nice since the Halloween barn dance!

[Bridget Burke]

123. In the old days they had Wicker Men.

Instead of trying those who did wrong & imprisoning them, the Elders of the Tribe locked them inside Wicker Men.

Then they set fire to the wicker. The whole Tribe gathered around & cheered as the guilty screamed & died.

[QC]

125. Sounds kinda like this thread, doesn't it?

Pay no attention to those well-dressed, well-fed millionaires behind the curtain! Look! Over there! A bucktoothed hayseed with a two-digit IQ! Get her! Get her!

[Hobarticus]

127. Should she go free, then?

Is that what you're saying?

[QC]

129. Two straw men in a row! Excellent!

Nobody here has said that she is not responsible for what she did, and nobody has said that she should go free.

What some people have said is that she is not the one ultimately responsible for what happened at Abu Ghraib, but is instead the designated patsy. That's a very different thing from the misrepresentations you have attributed to us.

[Hobarticus]

131. Uh, no. I agree that she's the designated patsy. However...

I never misrepresented what anyone has said about her being a patsy, and other guilty parties walking free. I'm just stating a fact: she still did what she did, and I've yet to hear any words of contrition from her. Have you?

All the cute n' clever posts about straw men on DU won't change that.

[Generator]

134. Here you go

In court, she apologized for her role in the scandal.

Phillips: What are you guilty of?

England: For doing the wrong thing, posing in pictures when I shouldn’t have, degrading them and humiliating—and not saying anything to anybody else to stop it.




Phillips: What do you want to say to those detainees that you were photographed with?

England: I had no right to do that to them and I’m really sorry. I just hope they forgive me someday.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9532670/page/2/

And now she's doing her time. Too bad no one that gave the orders is.

[Hobarticus]

135. Thank you...

I hadn't heard this. You're right, this is a sad thing that she has to be the fall guy. Doesn't take away what she did, but remorse goes a long way, in my book.

[QC]

144. If you don't like posts about straw men,

then don't post so damn many straw man arguments. Try responding to what people actually post, rather than throwing up some silly misrepresentation of what they said and then responding to it. That makes for a much better discussion.

[madeline_con]

137. OOO! "Bride burning" the bitch!

What a sweet idea! Where can we send cigarette money?

[Strathos]

140. Some of us on here are no better than the rethugs

who point, blame and laugh at the misery of other people. Those that wish harm to anyone should be ashamed. Now, wishing that the president would be abducted by aliens is a whole different story, right? LOL No harm, just a little abduction. ;-)

[The Flaming Red Head]

149. Evil as she is, she is just a front for the ones who ordered the torture

Now everyone is happy and distracted; and evil, stupid, probably low IQ, Lindy is getting what she deserves, but what about the ones who really deserve it. I think they'll get fat retirements, bimbo trophy wives, McMansions and lots of time to play golf.


Could they have set up a bunch of fall guys any better.


I thought we were all smarter than this.

[davsand]

150. In no way do I excuse her actions, however...

I do find it sickening that pain meds were withheld when she needed them. THAT is willful infliction of pain and not anything I find acceptable in any setting.

Are the people running that prison infirmary any better or any different than the prisoner they just denied treatment to? IMO, they are equally bad.

I was outraged (and remain so) by the accounts of prisoners being abused and tortured in Iraq and Gitmo. I am equally outraged at the idea of prisoners here in the US being abused and tortured.


Laura

[angrynwhite]

158. I’m surprised...

I figured the first news we would here about Lynndie would be something relating to sex or pregnancy.

[BiggJawn]

160. This, on top of taking the fall for the higher-ups...

And for the "Karma's a Bitch" crowd, guess a lot of you have never experienced hot grease.

[classysassy]

165. Justice

American justice,the baby chicks go to jail,the real criminals,Bush,Chaney and the sec of def enjoy the Christmas holiday with their families.HOLD ON CITIZENS JUSTICE IS ON THE WAY.

[maddezmom]

168. locking

Discussion has ceased to be productive.