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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 09:36 PM
Original message
U.S. Airstrikes Take Toll on Civilians
Edited on Fri Dec-23-05 09:37 PM by cal04
Eyewitnesses Cite Scores Killed in Marine Offensive in Western Iraq
U.S. Marine airstrikes targeting insurgents sheltering in Iraqi residential neighborhoods are killing civilians as well as guerrillas along the Euphrates River in far western Iraq, according to Iraqi townspeople and officials and the U.S. military. Just how many civilians have been killed is strongly disputed by the Marines, and, some critics say, too little investigated. But townspeople, tribal leaders, medical workers and accounts from witnesses at the sites of clashes, at hospitals and at graveyards indicated that scores of noncombatants were killed last month in fighting, including airstrikes, in the opening stages of a 17-day U.S.-Iraqi offensive in Anbar province.

"These people died silently, complaining to God of a guilt they did not commit," Zahid Mohammed Rawi, a physician, said in the town of Husaybah. Rawi said that after roughly one week into Operation Steel Curtain, which began on Nov. 5, medical workers had recorded 97 civilians killed. At least 38 insurgents were also killed in the offensive's early days, Rawi said. In a Husaybah school converted to a makeshift hospital, Rawi, four other doctors and a nurse treated wounded Iraqis in the opening days of the offensive, examining bloodied children as anxious fathers soothed them and held them down. "I dare any organization, committee or the American army to deny these numbers," Rawi said.

U.S. Marines in Anbar say they take pains to spare innocent lives and almost invariably question civilian accounts from the battleground communities. They say that townspeople who either support the insurgents or are intimidated by them are manipulating the number of noncombatant deaths for propaganda -- a charge that some Iraqis acknowledge is true of some residents and medical workers in Anbar province. "I wholeheartedly believe the vast majority of civilians are killed by the insurgency," particularly by improvised bombs, said Col. Michael Denning, the top air officer for the 2nd Marine Division, which is leading the fight against insurgents in Anbar province.


In an interview at a Marine base at Ramadi, Anbar's provincial capital, Denning acknowledged that a city was "a very, very difficult place to fight." He said, however, that "insurgents will kill civilians and try to blame it on us." But some military analysts say the U.S. military must do more to track the civilian toll from its airstrikes. Sarah Sewall, deputy assistant secretary of defense from 1993 to 1996 and now program director for the Carr Center for Human Rights Policy at Harvard, said the military's resistance to acknowledging and analyzing so-called collateral damage remained one of the most serious failures of the U.S. air and ground war in Iraq. "It's almost impossible to fight a war in which engagements occur in urban areas to avoid civilian casualties," Sewall, whose center is a branch of Harvard's Kennedy School of Government that focuses on issues such as genocide, failed states and military intervention, said in a telephone interview. "In a conflict like Iraq, where civilian perceptions are as important as the number of weapons caches destroyed, assessing the civilian harm must become a part of the battle damage assessment process if you're going to fight a smart war," she said.

more
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/23/AR2005122301471.html
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. Steel Curtain eh? Wonder what Reagan would think of that name
:eyes:
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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. freedom !
:-(
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
3. TAKE TOLL ?? ...more like U.S. Airstrikes "massacre and behead" civilians
those daisy cutters, cluster bombs will take yer head right off---whap
not to mention the cruelly painful yet ever popular "White Phosphorous" ! (makes hell feel like heaven).

Pretty barbaric and intolerable in a modern society and a civilized world--

Bush to the Hague.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
4. Don't forget all the bombing we did under Clinton as well. nt
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. Hey Yo ! Clinton didn't ILLEGALLY INVADE AND KILL 200 THOUSAND CIVILIANS!!
GET the perspective-
Clinton has nothing to do with this Rush !!
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tuckessee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. Clinton is bombing no one right now. Bush is. Big Difference. n/t
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cantstandbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
5. As the number one terrorist state in the world, how many have the US
actually killed in Iraq and Afghanistan?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 06:10 AM
Response to Original message
6. So in just one operation
we killed more innocent civilians then insurgents.

Where are all those right to lifers now?
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DemonFighterLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
7. Steel curtains and blame the victims
Steel Curtain :argh:
The insurgents killed more than our bombs ever could- deluded military man.
How can evil dumbya go on smiling while he ruthlessly savages these poor people?
Merry Christmas Killer b*sh!
:cry:
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hwmnbn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
8. Here is the "rain" of freedom
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
9. Civilian toll from U.S. airstrikes hard to gauge
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10594430/

RAMADI, Iraq - U.S. Marine airstrikes targeting insurgents sheltering in Iraqi residential neighborhoods are killing civilians as well as guerrillas along the Euphrates River in far western Iraq, according to Iraqi townspeople and officials and the U.S. military.

Just how many civilians have been killed is strongly disputed by the Marines and, some critics say, too little investigated. But townspeople, tribal leaders, medical workers and accounts from witnesses at the sites of clashes, at hospitals and at graveyards indicated that scores of noncombatants were killed last month in fighting, including airstrikes, in the opening stages of a 17-day U.S.-Iraqi offensive in Anbar province.

"These people died silently, complaining to God of a guilt they did not commit," Zahid Mohammed Rawi, a physician, said in the town of Husaybah. Rawi said that roughly one week into Operation Steel Curtain, which began on Nov. 5, medical workers had recorded 97 civilians killed. At least 38 insurgents were also killed in the offensive's early days, Rawi said.

In a Husaybah school converted to a makeshift hospital, Rawi, four other doctors and a nurse treated wounded Iraqis in the opening days of the offensive, examining bloodied children as anxious fathers soothed them and held them down.

"I dare any organization, committee or the American Army to deny these numbers," Rawi said.


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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. The people who FOLLOW these orders are THUGS and MURDERERS
A Pox on them.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Photo, link..... CSMonitor.....
http://csmonitor.com/2004/0331/p15s01-wogi.html


THE COSTS OF WAR: An Iraqi family grieved for a 3-year-old girl killed in Fallujah last fall when US forces battled insurgents.
LASZLO BALOGH/REUTERS
It's also difficult to assign responsibility or blame. Many thousands of Iraqi civilians died during Hussein's reign, and 692 US-led coalition soldiers have died ending that regime. In war - by definition, the failure to resolve disputes without suffering - how do these losses figure into any kind of cost-benefit calculus?



Anyone remember when the number of American troops lost was 692??

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. every time they drop a 500 - 2000 lb Bomb
they kill innocents. Every fucking time.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Makes ya proud to drop thousands of tons of tnt on a country that
never lifted a finger towards you eh?? Not to mention fire... the fire really gets me.
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Crazy Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. After about a month into the war.....
the Iraqi hospitals and doctors were ordered, yes ordered by American authorities to stop counting civilian casualties and injuries or risk losing rebuilding efforts and funds for their hospitals that the US destroyed.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. "That was a good strike"! these people are sick...
<snip>

"That was a good strike, and we got some people who were killing a lot of people," Denning said.

Capt. Jeffrey S. Pool, a spokesman for the 2nd Marines, said it was not possible that children were killed in that strike unless they were outside the range of the F-15's camera.

Residents, however, said the strike killed civilians as well as insurgents, including 18 children. Afterward, at a traditional communal funeral, black banners bore the names of the dead, and grieving parents gave names, ages and detailed descriptions of the children they said had been killed, witnesses said. The bodies of three children and a woman lay unclaimed outside a hospital after the day's fighting.

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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. The irony!
I remember when the Clinton/Lewinsky fiasco was going on, there was a mother on one of the news shows, near to tears, her voice cracking as she described how her 5 year old son was going to be traumatized for life because he had to hear about the scandal on TV. Whatever was she going to tell this poor little angel, she wondered.

Every opportunity to bash the "lib'ruls" begins with "What will we tell the children?" :puke:

Meanwhile, we're busy in Iraq, blowing the arms and legs off of other people's children and calling it collateral damage.

If there is a God, she will smite us for this! :cry:
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Yes.... we shall be smitten, already have been with the cuts in social
Edited on Sat Dec-24-05 09:24 AM by 4MoronicYears
programs and so forth.... not to mention having to bow to "certifiable" entities in high places.
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. Every Iraqi death is a civilian death..we are not fighting soldiers
We are not engaged against a military force. We are using our military to do police work in a foreign country. Since the military doesn't know much about police work it does what it knows how to do. Kill. "what is the spirit of the bayonet?"---"To Kill"
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greiner3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
19. The only thing 'smart' about bombs are; n/t
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seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
20. Seymour Hersh: "Up in the Air", written last month, was again on target.
snip from the Hersh piece:

A key element of the drawdown plans, not mentioned in the President’s public statements, is that the departing American troops will be replaced by American airpower. Quick, deadly strikes by U.S. warplanes are seen as a way to improve dramatically the combat capability of even the weakest Iraqi combat units. The danger, military experts have told me, is that, while the number of American casualties would decrease as ground troops are withdrawn, the over-all level of violence and the number of Iraqi fatalities would increase unless there are stringent controls over who bombs what.

“We’re not planning to diminish the war,” Patrick Clawson, the deputy director of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, told me. Clawson’s views often mirror the thinking of the men and women around Vice-President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. “We just want to change the mix of the forces doing the fighting—Iraqi infantry with American support and greater use of airpower. The rule now is to commit Iraqi forces into combat only in places where they are sure to win. The pace of commitment, and withdrawal, depends on their success in the battlefield.”

He continued, “We want to draw down our forces, but the President is prepared to tough this one out. There is a very deep feeling on his part that the issue of Iraq was settled by the American people at the polling places in 2004.” The war against the insurgency “may end up being a nasty and murderous civil war in Iraq, but we and our allies would still win,” he said. “As long as the Kurds and the Shiites stay on our side, we’re set to go. There’s no sense that the world is caving in. We’re in the middle of a seven-year slog in Iraq, and eighty per cent of the Iraqis are receptive to our message.”

One Pentagon adviser told me, “There are always contingency plans, but why withdraw and take a chance? I don’t think the President will go for it”—until the insurgency is broken. “He’s not going to back off. This is bigger than domestic politics.”

snip


http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/051205fa_fact
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. what a bunch of delusional douchebags
" eighty per cent of the Iraqis are receptive to our message.”

uh huh. 100% of that statement is completely madeup.
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