BREAKING-Schwarzenegger denies Williams' plea for clemency - MSNBC 1238pm

[Heddi]

no link, on MSNBC now

Edit:

CA Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger denies clemency to Stanley "Tookie" Williams. Per office, Arnie could find "no compelling reason" for clemency.

Still looking for link.

Edit again:

Go to www.msnbc.com and there is a flashing banner at the top of the page, but it does not link to a story. Still looking.

More edit at 12:38pm PST: Have checked CBS, CNN, FOX, MSNBC, ABC, and NBC and there is no link to this story, although it is being reported right now on MSNBC and there is still the banner (no link to story) on the MSNBC website.

FINALLY--LINK

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10355657/

No clemency: Ex-Crips' leader to be executed
California Gov. Schwarzenegger rejects Stanley Tookie Williams' request

SAN FRANCISCO - Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger denied clemency for Crips co-founder Stanley Tookie Williams, who is scheduled to die early Tuesday.

The request to the governor was Williams’ last hope for being spared of execution, which is set to happen Tuesday morning at 12:01 a.m.

Schwarzenegger’s decision comes after a federal appeals court refused to block the execution early Tuesday.

<<<<<<<<
Less than 12 hours before the execution was set to take place, the 9th U.S. Circuit of Appeals said it would not intervene because, among other things, there was no “clear and convincing evidence of actual innocence.”

[Stand and Fight]

1. ...

[Beaverhausen]

2. oh shit

I'm against the death penalty in all cases, this one included.

[berner59]

6. This could get ugly...

With some of the good he's done, it's amazing that he's denyed clemency... Why should anyone on death row try to redeem themselves? There could be riots...

[GrumpyGreg]

11. If there are riots it would just be a bunch of hormone driven punks

destroying their own neighborhoods.

Tookie would be the excuse.

[slackmaster]

25. You're probably right

Angry young men who are already itching for a fight.

[okieinpain]

79. exactly, just someone looking to get a six pack or a pair of jeans.

[slackmaster]

23. Who would riot in this case?

Family members of people who have been murdered by the Crips?

Gang members?

Anti-violence activists?

:freak:

[Beaverhausen]

31. Anti- death penalty activists?

:shrug:

[slackmaster]

34. I could see a candlelight vigil, perhaps a rowdy one, but a riot?

Not likely IMO.

[maxrandb]

55. The Neo-cons are hoping for a repeat of the LA riots

after the cops were aquitted in the Rodney King case.

Talking heads on hate radio were predicting all day that the Gropenhator would give him clemency just to save the city.

Hope that is not the case, but this is the wing-nuts wet dream. They want to have this violence flashed across the TV of Americans so that more Americans will live in fear of the next boogey-man.

It's how they stay in power. One simple word: FEAR.

They need those neo-cons to protect them from the sick, Christman hating, godless evildoers.

[slackmaster]

64. I'll make another bold prediction here

No riots will materialize.

[slackmaster]

121. Cue sound of crickets chirping

No riots.

:hi:

[HuffleClaw]

115. i blame the MEDIA

for this RACIST fear-mongering crap. 'fear the darkies!' 'lock your doors!' its gonna be a long night. just watch fox newsnet and cnn follow EVERY incident of crime in the la area with gleaming eyes. i'm sickened. a glaring example of the racism that lay just beneath the veneer of polite society.

[Mike Daniels]

67. Who knows what good things his victims may have accomplished in life

If Tookie hadn't chosen to splatter them over creation with a shotgun?

I'm uncomfortable with the death penalty on a number of fronts and would be more than happy to see "life without parole" become the national preference.

That said, I'm not going to shed any tears over Tookie passing from the mortal plane given he's already had 20+ more years on it than the people he killed.

[okieinpain]

81. I can agree with this.

[Baclava]

88. "Killer must die," says furious kin

The man was a killer - I have to side with the victims.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...p-314207c.html

"He's a cold-blooded murderer and they want to sweep it under the rug," said Owens, the stepmom of U.S. Army veteran Albert Owens, one of four people Williams mowed down with a shotgun in 1979 in two separate robberies that netted about 200 bucks.

"After Williams blasted a football-sized hole in Albert Owens' back as he lay face-down on the floor of the 7-Eleven where he worked, the gang leader laughed about the "gurgling" noises the 26-year-old divorced father of two made as he died, according to trial testimony."

"And after Williams gunned down Yen-I Yang, 76, his wife, Tsai-Shai, 63, and their daughter, Yee-Chen Lin, 43, when he robbed their family-run motel, he bragged of killing "Buddha-heads," according to his pals' testimony."

[TankLV]

106. I'm totally against the death penalty for many reasons.

However, I won't be shedding any tears or losing any sleep over this - it seems rather cut and dried GUILTY to me, and there are FAR MORE DESERVING persons to receive clemency - "tookie" not being one of them in my opinion.

I would like to see a ban on the death penalty and imposition of life terms instead.

But that's just me.

[darkism]

3. Did anyone seriously expect this meathead to give Tookie clemency?

The RW talking heads on the RW news were reporting it like they actually thought it a possibility.

Rightwingers are nothing but bloodthirsty, murderous thugs...George Ryan excluded, of course.

[Freddie Stubbs]

8. And many DUers were posting numerous thread trying to get people

to urge the musclehead (Rob Reiner is the Meathead) to grant clemency.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

9. Oh please, stop with George Ryan. The only reason he put a

moratorium on the death penalty in Illinois is to clear his guilt ridden conscience.

I hope and pray "ole George" rots in federal prison.

[hlthe2b]

14. well, "ole George" at least can point to one good thing

he did in office. Can you think of any for Arnold?

[Warpy]

18. Yeah, killing innocent people in the name of the state

would give a real human being a guilty conscience.

[ET Awful]

15. Not at all, this is the decision I espected, not the one I wanted, but

I didn't expect anything better out of someone who once said he admired Hitler.

[glarius]

33. I suppose everyone is waiting breathlessly for the news of his last meal.

:sarcasm: I find the custom, or should I say ritual of the last meal to be completely disgusting....May he be forgiven for whatever he has done...and God rest his soul.....

[superconnected]

100. I wonder why there is a last meal.

food is for sustenuence.

[JohnLocke]

110. Here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_meal

[Bill McBlueState]

111. yeah, I don't get it

Really, otherwise rational people get downright weird when the state comes around killing people.

[LeighAnn]

60. Mercy is just something they talk about in context of themselves

The only time you hear a right-winger using the word "mercy" is when one of them gets busted with a hooker, or some-such. The Baby Jesus tells us we should all be merciful, doesn't He? Why don't right-wingers get that?

[melody]

4. Arnold can always be counted on for the politically expedient stance n/t

[coalition_unwilling]

5. As a resident of California,

I really object to this steroid-addled sexually harassing clown getting to decide on life or death for anyone at all.

[Whoa_Nelly]

7. Here, here!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[coalition_unwilling]

12. Schwarze-nazi will be out in 2006

so it's really a matter of limiting the damage he does until then. There may actually be a recall attempt against him, scheduled for June 2006. I've heard vague rumblings about it. Idea is to get S out and Bustamente in for remainder of the regular term.

I'll be attending an emergency vigil at the Westwood Federal Building tonight (Westwood, CA) at 6 p.m. I encourage all lovers of truth and justice to attend.

[hlthe2b]

24. Be careful, Coalition_U.... things could get pretty heated

[bertha katzenengel]

49. HEAR, HEAR!

You speak for me, c_u.

[primavera]

69. Damn shame you guys voted for him

Sorry, I know it's a cheap shot, but still, it's hard to be too sympathetic when Californians voted in such majorities for a guy they knew was a steroid-brained serial sexual assaulter. It simply boggles the mind...

[slackmaster]

73. California politics should boggle your mind

It's as weird as politics gets in this country.

[hyphenate]

80. amen!

It's really scary there in some places. Some of the antics of the politicos are outright jaw-dropping. And the fact that Ahnold even got in is absolutely mind numbing. I do have to say, however, that if it weren't for the 15 years I spent there, I would not be as involved in politics as I am now!

[coalition_unwilling]

119. I supported Arianna Huffington

and then voted Green when she dropped out.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

10. Link is up:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10355657/

SAN FRANCISCO - Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger denied clemency for Crips co-founder Stanley Tookie Williams, who is scheduled to die early Tuesday.

The request to the governor was Williams’ last hope for being spared of execution, which is set to happen Tuesday morning at 12:01 a.m.

Schwarzenegger’s decision comes after a federal appeals court refused to block the execution early Tuesday.

Williams, 51, is set to die by injection at San Quentin State Prison for murdering four people in two 1979 holdups.

[Heddi]

13. Thanks! I edited the same time you posted

thanks, though!

[Gregorian]

16. Remember, every life is so valuable.

But only some lives are valuable enough to keep alive.

I don't care what the reason is. Killing is killing. A brain dead woman is worthy of Frist's visit. Another, isn't worthy of living. The line is drawn somewhere. A deliberate line.

The judicial system is a machine. Void of compassion. Void of reason.

Will someone benefit from Tookie's death? Just ask that. Maybe he could be a greater deterrant by serving the remainder of his life as an example.

[slackmaster]

17. I believe I called it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2299705#2299726

[urizenxvii]

19. whatever happened to

'compassionate' conservatives?

[StudentOfDarrow]

43. They never existed.

And by the way, welcome to DU!!!

[daleo]

20. No real surprise here

Schwarzenegger would be bound to play to the capital punishment crowd, regardless of his own leanings (and I don't know what those are).

A lot of people just don't believe in the Christian notion of redemption, I guess. I would include a lot of Christians in that number.

[sabate]

21. Bye bye

[Lochloosa]

30. Welcome to DU

and bye...:hi:

[liberalnurse]

38. Welcome to DU.....

Just ignore that man behind the curtain.......O8) :hi:

[Dogmudgeon]

22. That's it for Arnold

His career in politics, his career in acting -- kiss them both goodbye, Herr S. The ghost of Tookie Williams will haunt you from this day onward. And though Williams had been enough of a bad-ass in his youth to deserve similar callous disregard, I would have liked to think that both Messrs. Schwartzenegger and Williams would make the most of this situation to promote a better world.

I really thought he would follow his higher instincts, but I guess I am too optimistic about people. At least we know that he's not exactly a calculating man. (No, that's not a compliment.)

It's also a shame about Tookie. He was turning a lot of kids around. Oh, well; what can you expect from a political philosophy (A.S.'s) that treats people as commodities?

--p!
"Arnie, We Hardly Knew Ye."

[slackmaster]

32. He'll turn this into a winning issue, neutral at worst (for him)

Remember Willie Horton?

Any Democratic candidate who was foolish enough to come out in favor of clemency for Tookie Williams will get "Willie Hortoned".

I hate to say this, but the opportunity to deny clemency to such a brutal and widely despised criminal, a symbol of the gang problems that plague California's cities, will turn out to be the best Christmas present Arnold Schwarzenegger the politician has ever gotten.

:nuke:

BTW I oppose the death penalty.

[losdiablosgato]

47. Sadly I agree with you, on both points.

[Dogmudgeon]

53. The difference(s)

I remember Willie Horton well. But I don't think it's the same kind of issue anymore. The tide was "coming in" and the death penalty was being seen as a cure-all for crime when the Willie Horton episode happened. The tide is "going out" now, as more people question the value of the death penalty in light of the large number of convicts exonerated by DNA evidence.

Tomorrow, Schwartzenegger may poll well, but eventually, it will be a mark against him. He ran as a "progressive" Republican, but has given California some of the most cynical governance in decades, far exceeding Gray Davis' callousness.

Of course, this isn't entirely about Tookie Williams. I have no love for the man, though I do acknowledge that he's reformed himself and has done a good job of turning many gang members away from that life. However, for years, he was not just a symbol, but a cause of that gang violence. He appears to have more than "earned" his impending death. But this case has been looked at as a bellwether on execution, and shows us that we have a long way to go.

You're certainly right about the short-term reaction, though, and that's the shame of it. But this time, the "Willie Hortoning" of the pro-clemency people won't be as easy to accomplish. And Gov. Schwartzenegger will soon find himself on the "wrong" side of history.

--p!

[depakid]

77. Politically, this wasn't wise at all

He could have made a statement here and sparated himself from Gray Davis- who would never have considered any form of clemency.

Playing to the left could have broadened his withering support. Now he looks just like another Republican.

[gulfcoastliberal]

93. So "Tookie" Williams would've been released from prison?

My understanding is that his death penalty would've been converted to life behind bars w/o possibility of parole. I thought Horton actually got to leave the prison grounds and then murdered someone. I thought Williams would've just spent the rest of his life in prison, not released to the streets? Or am I missing something?

[sofa king]

114. As I understand it, there is no "life without parole" in CA.

That's why Charles Manson, whose death sentence was converted to life imprisonment, occasionally entertains the public with parole hearings. I wonder if he still wants to go to Iraq?

It would not surprise me if the possibility of future parole is used as a hand-waving justification for Williams' execution.

[slackmaster]

117. No, that's not what I said at all

I thought Horton actually got to leave the prison grounds and then murdered someone.

That is true.

I thought Williams would've just spent the rest of his life in prison, not released to the streets? Or am I missing something?

Anyone (read Any Democrat) who supported clemency (life in prison instead of the DP) for Tookie Williams will be painted by the Schwarzenegger re-election campaign next year as "soft on crime" and "out of touch with the peoples' wishes".

Mark my words.

[Xithras]

37. Nope, most Californians support the death penalty.

Whenever we exectute someone in this state, some media organization invariably polls the public on their opinion of it, and invariably the larger majority of the state supports it. Practically all Republicans support it, and a huge chunk of Democrats support it, making it a political sacred cow.

California isn't quite as liberal as we like to think it is.

[slackmaster]

42. Ain't it fun being a Cassandra on DU?

I hear you.

Please do send me a PM if you come to San Diego.

[VaYallaDawg]

26. Thanks for the update.

I agree with the earlier posters ... hope this doesn't get ugly, for the sake of the people living in CA. For the sake of all of us, in fact.

[Endangered Specie]

27. I wont miss the sorry son-of-a-bitch.

:nopity:



looks like all the tookie kookie's efforts were for nothing.

[BrightKnight]

76. Living in the shadow of gang violence

Though not from the Crips, I have experienced gang violence and seen what it could do to a community.

I lived in the poor Chicago neighborhoods during the heart of the crack epidemic. I thought at the time that all gang members should be taken out and summarily executed. They are a cancer.

How many people have been killed by the Crips? How much drugs have they distributed? How much properly have they stolen? How many lives have they affected? How many communities have they destroyed?

I believe in the rule of law. Life is precious and the death penalty should be rare. I understand the socioeconomic issues. I can not feel bad about what is happening to Mr. Williams.

[lebkuchen]

28. What an ass Arnie is. Austria doesn't have the death penalty

He could have injected a bit of European civilization into the state of CA. He refused. He's as barbaric as the rest of the US.

[medeak]

29. Didn't take long for Jesse Jackson to get on tv

(court tv)

I think with victim rights advocates and the families of his victims speaking out that it would have been a tough decision for saving him.

[liberalnurse]

35. So be-it.......

As a farmer and Crip Mastermind, Tookie seeded an entire generation with his warrior-thug culture. He has been judged by his peers. The kiddie books were only a cover. He still kept his message alive through his writings.

[High Plains]

41. That darned Tookie!

If only he had never been born, South Central Los Angeles would be Ozzie and Harriet land.

Tookie isn't the problem; he's the symptom.

[liberalnurse]

54. Tookie is responsible for Tookie's

behavior and actions. He is no different than Manson. Mason would be in the same gurney if the Death Penalty was active at the time of his conviction. Tookie is/was not a symptom but an actual infection.

This will probably place him in martyr status..... :scared:

[High Plains]

62. Tookie is indeed responsible for his actions...

...and he should face life in prison. Okay, we disagree on that.

But we agree that this will probably make him a martyr. That's too bad.

But I will say again: Tookie isn't the problem; he's the symptom. We do have to balance personal responsibility for one's actions against social responsibility for social conditions, don't we? Otherwise, all this happenened only because Tookie is "a bad man." I don't think that comes close to explaining why a culture of violence lives in our cities.

[liberalnurse]

68. We also agree on stopping the

24/7 gang-youth violence. If is an epidemic. Those caught up in the thinking that the way to live is hard, drugged-up/high-high, shoot-en up, fast-cash dealing and it's all about me me me lifestyle just has to stop. I see a at least one teen or young adult DAILY, who has already survived injuries from a shooting. Many have been shot twice, separate incidents..... Yet, they can't read.

[michreject]

65. I do believe that the DP was in effect

When Manson was convicted and he was sentenced to death. Before the sentence could be executed, the United States suspended the DP and all DP convictions in the US were commuted to life.

[stlsaxman]

83. And those FIVE Nobel Peace Prize nominations were only a cover, too?

on edit: Tookie should recieve the Nobel Peace Prize posthumously next year.

[seriousstan]

87. One man made those nominations for the purpose of pushing anti-DP

I am sre he will move on to the next poterchild to try to further his cause. I had a better chance at getting the NPP for forum posts than a murdering bastard like Tookie did.

Read the requirements for uninvited NPP nominations. All you have to be is a history professor. Pretty low bar.

http://nobelprize.org/peace/nomination/nominators.html

The Nominators – Peace
Right to submit proposals for the Nobel Peace Prize, based on the principle of competence and universality, shall by statute be enjoyed by:


1. Members of national assemblies and governments of states;
2. Members of international courts;
3. University rectors; professors of social sciences, history, philosophy, law and theology; directors of peace research institutes and foreign policy institutes;
4. Persons who have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize;
5. Board members of organizations who have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize;
6. Active and former members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee; (proposals by members of the Committee to be submitted no later than at the first meeting of the Committee after February 1) and
7. Former advisers appointed by the Norwegian Nobel Institute.

The Nobel Peace Prize may also be awarded to institutions and associations.

[liberalnurse]

96. I believe he has always

just served "crip kool-aide".......His books were just another mode of spreading information about "him", because it is always about him, power and control. The books let him speak under the veil of denouncing the violence. He made the violence the true topic and made him the center of attention. That is my take on it. No prize vote from me....he is a natural born con.

[alcibiades_mystery]

92. Yeah, gang culture springs entirely from the body and mind of Tookie

There's a real sharp sense of history you have there.

Now that Tookie will be dead, we can all rest assured that the inventor and sole factor leading to gang culture will have vanished from our midst! :sarcasm:

Seriously, I got no dog in this fight. I have no investment one way or the other on the Tookie Williams case. But I cannot tolerate false rationalizations and outright stupidity, like your incredibly stupid and shortsighted post. What fucking nonsense.

[Catchawave]

36. I give up :)

I hate the death penalty, but I hate cold blooded murderers too :(

[High Plains]

39. Ah, the death penalty cheerleaders have arrived.

[meisje]

99. Give me a T!

[MidwestTransplant]

40. Gray Davis would have made the same decision

He always thought he could run for Pres. so he was extra harsh, not wanting to be portrayed as soft on Crime. I wasn't too sad to see that fool go.

[slackmaster]

44. True, the last DP pardon by a CA governor was by Reagan in 1967

Strange but true.

According to the New York Times and other sources.

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0813F63E550C718CDDAB0994DD404482

[medeak]

45. "I don't want no last meal from this place"

Tootie quoted on MSNBC..

think he was hoping to be exonerated completely.

[Ekirh]

46. I hate the death penalty . . .

And that was my only reason for supporting his clemency . . I've always thought he was guilty.


In anycase what is done and done . . . . just another exeuction to chalk up for the American Justice System . . . . . . . joy.

[StudentOfDarrow]

48. It's a sad reflection on the country that

Arnold Schwarzenegger gets to make life-and-death decisions.

[quiet.american]

58. Uh-huh. A crime in itself. n/t

[truthInCO]

75. He can't win

God forbid, if he had granted clemency thousands would be saying "HOW DARE HE" intefere with our judicial system. He fairly decided that nothing had come forth to overturn 24 years of appeals and legal process. Thank your nearest lawyer.

[judaspriestess]

50. wow

another oxymoron of the repuke party

Pro-life and Pro-death

which one is it?

even though I know arnie is pro-choice we all know where his wonderful faith based party slithers.

Personally I think this is fucked up all the way around. Another great:sarcasm: day for America under the * Admin. just another day of the news filled with more death and despair......

HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE!!

[superconnected]

51. He's changed now so it's more of a abberation

that he's being killed than a score for people against murderers.

They should have executed him 20 years ago if they were going to, when he WAS the cold hearted murderer.

Now it's far worse than an empty win.

Cold of schwartzenegger. Deathly cold.

[classysassy]

52. The pro death crowd

When your time comes to meet the grim reaperI sure hope you will remember your feelings toward another human kind.Sleep well tonight you blood thirsty ghouls.

[QuettaKid]

61. There WILL be violence

Last week on NPR they spoke with some inmates who are on the inside, basically said, if we are locked in here for life, and they kill Tookie, we ain't got NOTHING to lose. They said they might as well take a few guards out with them.

[Aretha]

98. That's sweet of you

You addressing that to anyone in particular. Any "blood thirsty ghouls" you'd like to give a shout-out to, "classy?"

[Binka]

116. No Comment

[Bill McBlueState]

112. seconded! n/t

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

56. "The facts do not justify overturning the jury’s verdict...

...or the decisions of the courts in this case."

So the questions are:

1). Where is the evidence that proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Williams is innocent? (I'm not aware of its existence, and I'm not a scholar on this case (nor do I wish to be) so I haven't seen the "guilty" evidence either).

2). This is being described as "a case that stirred debate over capital punishment and the possibility of redemption on death row," but there are two certainties in California right now. One, capital punishment is a reality. Two, where does "redemption" fit in if a guilty verdict has been reached in a capital punishment case? How do you prove "redemption" in the same way that you prove "innocence?" Can you?

It's not about Williams and his legacy, good or bad. Wherever it is that you think we go after we leave this world...Heaven, Valhalla, reincarnation or a black hole in space...that's where Williams will learn the value of his legacy. This is about a crime...four murders...and the man who was found guilty of those murders, Williams. The fact that he was a co-founder of the Crips is every bit as irrelevant as if he had been the co-founder of Burger King. Yes, it's going to affect public opinion. In relation to the four murders, it has no impact on his guilt or innocence.

So while I'm not Schwarzenegger's biggest booster, I'd like to know...in cold, hard facts, not opinion or emotion...how the statement "The facts do not justify overturning the jury’s verdict or the decisions of the courts in this case" can be disputed.

Whether or not there should be a death penalty can be disputed.

The facts surrounding Williams' guilty verdict can be disputed, but they haven't been.

[slackmaster]

63. Standard of proof in CA courts is REASONABLE doubt, not "shadow"

Judges explain it to juries as a doubt that a reasonable person might have after reviewing the totality of the evidence presented in court. They contrast "reasonable" doubt with "possible" doubt, which would include any bizarre scenario you can imagine.

The facts surrounding Williams' guilty verdict can be disputed, but they haven't been.

They have been disputed, but only in last-ditch efforts by Tookie and his lawyers and his ghost writers. IOW by people with an axe to grind, people who may not be acting in a reasonable manner.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

66. My main question is "How have the facts been disputed?"

I've heard a lot of talk about redemption, but we're not talking about redemption. I've heard Williams say that he can't have remorse for something he didn't do, but that's simply Williams saying he didn't do it.

So I hear what you're saying about reasonable doubt, but my question is what evidence...not redemption talk, evidence...did Schwarzenegger ignore when making his decision? What evidence, other than Williams' own denials, was presented to Schwarzenegger that he chose to ignore?

[daleo]

74. Clemency is up to the governor

He doesn't have to have "proof" of redemption. Clearly, that is a state of mind, and nobody can be 100% sure of anyone else's state of mind. He just has to feel one of the following:

- capital punishment is wrong and he won't be a party to it.
- capital punishment in this case is wrong, and he won't be a party to it.
- the population of the state is in favor of clemency, and he won't risk a politically unpopular execution.

[slackmaster]

118. I strongly doubt your third bullet point

- the population of the state is in favor of clemency, and he won't risk a politically unpopular execution.

Do you have any unbiased poll data to support that statement?

[daleo]

120. I just meant that as a hypothetical

I meant that in a general sense, that it would be a reason a governor might choose to give clemency. I agree that is unlikely to be true in this case.

[dubyaD40web]

57. Terminated

n/t

[adriennui]

59. tookie murdered 4 living, breathing human beings

i just can't build up any sympathy for the man. the moment he decided to slaughter the victims he could have said "no, i can't do this, i can take 2 paths murder or drop my gun."


he made the wrong decision. remember.....4 previously living and breathing human beings. i have no use for this wailing and handwringing.

flame me if you must.

[rooboy]

89. And Schwarzenegger just murdered one more.

Boy, it must be nice to play God.

[lynne]

107. Tookie may have well had committed suicide -

- when he committed those murders. California already had the DP when Arnold took office and Tookie had been sentenced to death a decade or two prior. Arnold is merely upholding his oath as Governor by following the laws of the state.

No matter how much one may dislike Arnold, Tookie alone is the person responsible for his own execution.

[Scooter24]

70. Expected...

but let's hope that riots don't break out because of this. Tonight will be interesting.

[WinkyDink]

71. Mr. Williams said, "It's disgusting for one human being to watch another

human being die."
I suppose he ought to know.

P.S. The standard is NOT "beyond a shadow of a doubt"; it's "beyond a REASONABLE doubt". Duh.

Oh, and when I meet my Maker or the Grim Reaper or total blackness? I think I'll be able to reflect on the fact that I NEVER MURDERED ANYBODY!

Celebrities love a cause, don't they? Kind of reminds me of when Norman Mailer championed the killer who wrote "In the Belly of the Beast"; got him paroled, and bingo-bongo---he stabbed a young waiter to death. Then there was Dick Cavett, who loved family-killer Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald's lying arse.

I'm of two minds: I can recognize the awe-ful deliberate ending of a human life by the state. But I can step back and view us as simply an animal species, not all of whose members might deserve to live, after depriving others of their species of that same right.

ETA: As for the argument that "life in prison is sufficient": Apparently far less than that is enough to persuade some that the convict has changed utterly. Imagine, IOW, the clamor 10, 20, or 30 years from now, for TW's release from prison, because he's "reformed".

[LynneSin]

72. As Gandhi said best: Eye for an Eye makes the whole world blind

We have all become a little bit blinder by allowing state-sponser torture which is exactly what the death penalty is.

I'm not defending any of the creeps on death row, I'm sure 99.9% of them deserve to be there. But life in prison is fair enough. When we support the death penalty we become no better than the murderers we kill.

And not only is the death penalty unusually cruel (and outside of the United States, pretty much a punishment found in rogue 3rd-world terristic nations) but it's awfully racist. It seems that there are an unusually higher number of minorities sitting on death row.

Let's end this practice NOW!!

Say what you will about Tookie Williams but please, don't be a murderer and support this or any death penalty conviction.

[kurth]

78. What did ya expect from a freakin' Nazi Neanderthal?

Time to terminate the Terminator at the polls.

[d_b]

82. We live in a world where a guy

supposedly kills four people and gets the death sentecne - meanwhile, our leader acknowledges the death of 30,000 people and gets..vacation at the ranch.


I don't know what the hell Tookie did. But I also don't know how i would've turned out growing up in a hopeless shithole like that.

[0007]

95. This product of society is not in short demand!

We must examine ourself more closely.

[Peace Patriot]

84. Oh, Sweet Jesus! And now we'll get to see the spectacle of the death

watch, and the descriptions of the destruction of a human being by lethal injection, that so thrill the rightwing fascists who are running our country, and their pathetic minority of supporters (with their BIG TRUMPET in the war profiteering corporate news monopolies)! It is so barbaric and so sickening! No one is beyond redemption. No one! Every living soul must be given a chance at redemption and recompense. Otherwise we multiply the evil many times. Killing breeds killing. Hatred breeds hatred. Revenge breeds counter-revenge. And societies that engage in cold, methodical murder are a short step from cold, methodical torture. And guess what? We have gone right over the line now, and are permitting George Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Condoleeza Rice to whisk nameless people away on dark flights to torture dungeons in middle Europe and points east. We don't even know who they are, who are being tortured and undoubtedly killed and dumped into anonymous graves in our name.

Those of you who think that society's cold, methodical murder, as an eye for an eye revenge against the crime of murder, will stop with criminals or with innocents among the underprivileged who can't defend themselves, had better give this more thought, and feel it with your heart and soul. Do you really want these fascists to retain this power? Because, you know, someone near and dear to you may be next--falsely accused, executed or 'disappeared."

What could you do to stop it?

Capital punishment INEVITABLY leads to corrupt and fascist government--to mistreatment of the poor, to packing the jails with the poor, to entrenched interests wanting to keep the jails packed and to build more of them, to cycles of brutalization of the poorest among us, to loss of hope, oppression, mental illness, and a host of ills that never needed to be. It is the signature of oppressive government. It leads guards to be brutal, judges to be brutal and callous, police to be little tin gods, and sullies and saturates our society with bloodlust from top to bottom. But only the poor get caught. Only the poor pay the price. All this comes from capital punishment: from the notion that we are God. Look at Bush and you see the degradation, the loss of all decency and civility, that capital punishment visits upon us.

He's slaughtered tens of thousands of people in his lust for oil and dominion. He is the epitome of our society's disintegration. And he will never pay for his crimes--for tens of thousands of cold-blooded murders-- because he is rich.

And this poor man who repented, and tried to do good, is put to death.

[Baclava]

86. WTF? You think this 'poor man' gave his victim's souls a chance?

This dude started one of the most influential gangs in history, something that has sent monumental ripples of violence down through the last few decades. He has probably influenced literally MILLIONS of kids negatively, and hundreds of thousands to the point of tragedy. Killing this fuck is like killing Hitler...it's an absolute good.

[truth2power]

94. Do you think people can redeem themselves?

Just asking....

[Baclava]

97. People have to live, or die, with their own decisions

What if "Tookie" had spared his victims? We wouldn't be talking about this, now would we?

[truth2power]

103. No, but we've all made poor choices in our lives..

some resulting in much more serious outcomes than others. "There but for the grace of God" and all that. We should be willing to own our actions, yes. But an honest effort at redemption should also be taken into account.

I've stayed out of these threads about Tookie the past few weeks, because I'm very conflicted about the death penalty. Every time there is one of these high-profile executions I get a sick feeling. I'm not a pacifist, but I don't think I could sit on a jury where the death penalty was a possibility, except where the most heinous of crimes had been committed.

I'm still working on this issue. Not claiming I have it all ironed out yet. :shrug:

[Bill McBlueState]

113. oh, boo, hoo

You're so creative in your invocation of Hitler. Nobody ever compares anyone to Hitler on an internet message board.

Our legal system doesn't exist to coddle victims. And souls are things people invented to feel better about death.

[lynne]

104. He did?

You say this "poor man who repented" but did he? It's my understanding that he never admitted to the crimes. Also that he never turned any evidence on any crimes that he was aware of nor helped the police with info on other gang members.

How can one repent something they never admitted to doing?

[Danieljay]

85. Prime Time it....

for the arm chair executioners. Let them see the death penalty for what it really is. What the hell is with some people in this country's need for killing to make a point? Iraq, the death penalty, shooting abortion doctors? Just what does pro-life mean anyway?

[truth2power]

90. Everything else aside...

How anyone could think that the Gropenator has the intellectual acuity to make an informed decision in this matter is beyond me. Sheesh!! :silly:

[NNguyenMD]

91. DENY ARNOLD COMMUNION!!!

He's defying the will of the Catholic Church by not using his power of clemency to allow a man to be executed. They did it to Kerry, write the Catholic Church and call them hypocrits for not giving meathead the same treatment they've condoned giving to pro-choice politicians.

[thatsrightimirish]

101. oh yes

I can't wait to see what the Catholic Church will do :smoke:

[judaspriestess]

102. probably not a whole lot

[wisteria]

105. Excuse me, but what a DICK Arnold is. n/t

[Brian Stevens]

108. If you think....

First let me say that I do not endorse, or condone violence, but there are times, off times, chaos and riots work. The reason? It tips the oppositions hand. The L.A. Riots tipped the police dept's hand and now new stricter rules the cops must follow when it comes to race relations. Going back further, Watts riots tipped the goverments hands and accellerated civil rights legestlation during that time. In another part of the world, when Yugoslovia was in turmoil, it was its own people that raped and pillaged the statehouse (looking for Milloslavich). And there is tons of proof around the world. Just a sad but true observation.

[pinniped]

109. I believe in the death penalty for mass murderer, war criminal...

politicians and their cronies.

[TroglodyteScholar]

122. I heard Schwarzenegger just changed his mind this afternoon n/t

:crazy: