A 'fiscal hurricane' on the horizon

[RedEarth]

A 'fiscal hurricane' on the horizon
By Richard Wolf, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — The comptroller general of the United States is explaining over eggs how the nation's finances are going to hell.
"We face a demographic tsunami" that "will never recede," David Walker tells a group of reporters. He runs through a long list of fiscal challenges, led by the imminent retirement of the baby boomers, whose promised Medicare and Social Security benefits will swamp the federal budget in coming decades.

The breakfast conversation remains somber for most of an hour. Then one reporter smiles and asks, "Aren't you depressed in the morning?"

Sadly, it's no laughing matter. To hear Walker, the nation's top auditor, tell it, the United States can be likened to Rome before the fall of the empire. Its financial condition is "worse than advertised," he says. It has a "broken business model." It faces deficits in its budget, its balance of payments, its savings — and its leadership.

Walker's not the only one saying it. As Congress and the White House struggle to trim up to $50 billion from the federal budget over five years — just 3% of the $1.6 trillion in deficits projected for that period — budget experts say the nation soon could face its worst fiscal crisis since at least 1983, when Social Security bordered on bankruptcy.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-11-14-fiscal-hurricane-cover_x.htm#

[Davis_X_Machina]

1. Sad to say...

...we're ruled by people whose idea of long-term fiscal policy is "Don't worry -- Jesus is coming before the T-bills mature!"

[Angry Girl]

4. Their environmental policy is similar:

Plunder the land now, because it's all going up in a giant fireball and we won't be allowed to take it with us.

[madmark]

40. That statement is entirely too damn accurate

[renaissanceguy]

53. and if the "rapture" doesn't come soon enough,

no need to worry... chimpy will begin Armageddon soon enough.

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.37723675

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

81. When the Rapture does come

can I have your fries?

[liberal N proud]

2. Notice how Social Security is continuously mentioned throughout

They are still trying to find a way to take SS.

I must agree that this country is headed for financial disaster all at the hands of the republican thugs. But if SS surpluses were left in the system and not used to fund a war, it would remain solvent.

[Ignacio Upton]

10. They are not going to openly announce support for private accounts, so

They will spend the next few years spread disinformation about how Social Security is going bankrupt. I guarantee you that in the future that they will try to destroy Social Security yet again. But if we defeat them in 2006 and 2008, then they are finished in this front.

[Daphne08]

37. They had better leave my Social Security alone! n/t

[AngryAmish]

60. Why?

Do you really think SS will be there for you? The numbers do not add up. Baby boomers (the demographic 800 pound gorilla) refuse to pay for their retirement. The avg. SS recepient gets their own money out in around 4 years. Retirement age is 65 (soon to be 67). Life expectancy is around 17 years at that point. SS will not exist. It is a demographic imperative. Or you may get your funds paid in deflated dollars (gov't just print money).

I'm 37. No serious person my age expects to get SS. It is considered a tax. We are responsible for our own retirement since this gov't will not take care of us.

[llmart]

70. Social Security was never meant to fund your retirement...

Where did you get the idea it was?

[AlGore-08.com]

96. Bankrupt = If nothing is done, SS will pay 81% of the promised benefit

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=10&ItemID=6823

Social Security - Inventing A Crisis
by Paul Krugman

Privatizing Social Security - replacing the current system, in whole or in part, with personal investment accounts - won't do anything to strengthen the system's finances. If anything, it will make things worse. Nonetheless, the politics of privatization depend crucially on convincing the public that the system is in imminent danger of collapse, that we must destroy Social Security in order to save it.

(snip)

The grain of truth in claims of a Social Security crisis is that this tax increase wasn't quite big enough. Projections in a recent report by the Congressional Budget Office (which are probably more realistic than the very cautious projections of the Social Security Administration) say that the trust fund will run out in 2052. The system won't become "bankrupt" at that point; even after the trust fund is gone, Social Security revenues will cover 81 percent of the promised benefits. Still, there is a long-run financing problem.

But it's a problem of modest size. The report finds that extending the life of the trust fund into the 22nd century, with no change in benefits, would require additional revenues equal to only 0.54 percent of G.D.P. That's less than 3 percent of federal spending - less than we're currently spending in Iraq. And it's only about one-quarter of the revenue lost each year because of President Bush's tax cuts - roughly equal to the fraction of those cuts that goes to people with incomes over $500,000 a year.

(more... )

[hippiechick]

3. Oh hell yes.

That's why I'm almost reluctant to support a Dem candidate for 08 - because the enormity of the task the next Administration will face makes what Clinton/Gore inherited look like a tiny NSF check.

There's just no way whoever is President in 08-12 will be able to fix what's wrong and come out unscathed in the polls because of the levels to which the Bush Administration has destroyed the National Infrastructure.

Part of me wants the GOP to have to fix what they broke - and suffer the consequences. Although it's pretty clear that if another GOP'er gets elected in 08 -- they damn sure won't be looking at fixing what they've worked for 8 years to destroy.


:(

[superconnected]

7. Actually the Admin stole our money. They funnelled it

through corporations they have interest in.

They had no plans to do anything but put us in debt to those companies and the world banks for years to come.

So expecting them to fix it is kind of mute. It wasn't spent stupidly. It was spent deviously.

They would only rob us more if they stayed in.

[wildcat78]

35. Their stupid tax cuts

Actually, the money that was to shore up SS went to the tax cuts.

These people are a real charm!

[donkeyotay]

98. We paid it in, and they STOLE it

I had a problem with that part, too: "retirement of the baby boomers, whose promised Medicare and Social Security benefits will swamp the federal budget in coming decades."

We paid, and are paying, it in. The problem is that they are stealing it. The GOP crime family cycle: Bush steals from the people to give to his corporate clients, who then kick back a small portion to the GOP so they can install more crooks to steal more.

Want to give a tax cut? Cut the working man's wage taxes. He's not getting anything for it anyway.

[Ignacio Upton]

8. We are in a political Catch 22

If we fix the financial problem then we will get punished for it in 2010 and 2012. If we don't, then the Republicans will be the ones in power anyone since we are trusting them to "fix what first broke."

[AX10]

17. Unless things get so bad (1930's) where the people...

will support us and be calm because they are willing to wait to see some improvement. This only happens should things hit rock bottom.

[Roland99]

18. What I fear is that there is no "should"...more of a "when".

:scared:

[Voltaire99]

50. Doesn't matter in the least who inherits this mess...

...as it's going to outlast any one single administration.

Paging socialism! Fucked-up capitalists on line one...

[converted_democrat]

66. "Paging socialism! Fucked-up capitalists on line one..."

:spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray:

[wordpix]

5. However, the fucking Repukes still demand tax cuts for the rich!!!

[superconnected]

6. It didn't take bush 5 years to destory our booming economy

and surplus.

It took him 1.

[SpiralHawk]

9. Thanks a pantload, George AWOL Bush

We will be cleaning up your messes for decades.

Throw the bum out.

[maryallen]

82. And strip Dubya and Poppy of every dime they own ...

Payback is only fair ...

A girl can dream, can't she?

[converted_democrat]

11. We are fucked..n/t

[drmom]

12. You'd think with ALL this news, that people would be violently revolting!

What ever happened to the good old fashioned coup?

[Tyler Durden]

13. "Your Highness, the people are REVOLTING!"

"You said it. They stink on ice."

Ba-da-boom.

[Maven]

79. "I LOVE the peasants!"

"They are my people. I am their sovereign. PULL!"

("AGHGHGHGHGHG")

[SoCalDem]

14. Just the way it was planned.

Boomers paid EXTRA for 45 years or more, and of course the government always found ways to spend that money and more.. Clinton was the only one who seemed to realize that eventually the boomers would actually expect to retire.

Surprise!!! no money left for us..

[Lasher]

38. Stealing the SS trust fund is wrong on so many levels

Since Saint Ronnie of Reagan's Greenspan Commission, we have paid EXTRA as you say, to build up the trust fund so that we boomers could count on having Social Security. Currently we pay 6.2% on up to $90K of our salaries. This $90K ceiling has been raised over the years, to keep the 'payout' level just out of reach of the middle class.

The SS trust fund has been loaned to the general fund. Payback, plus interest, from the general fund to SS is expected when boomers start to retire.

This is the point where repugs want to steal the trust fund.

You have heard them say that there is no trust fund, that it's just worthless pieces of paper. This is propaganda intended to convince us it's OK if the general fund never pays SS what is owed. That's what they want. That's why Dubya tells us there is a SS emergency, when the program will be just fine as it is for the next 40 years or so. He wants to cut benefits so that the general fund never has to pay what it owes the trust fund.

We paid EXTRA all those years, now we are entitled to what we paid for. The retirement age for boomers has already been moved out to age 66 for those of us who were born in 1943 to 1954. That's plenty of sacrifice already for boomers to have made.

If the general fund does not repay all that money to the SS trust fund, then what would you then call all those extra taxes we paid? Retroactively, they would become regular income taxes, structured to ensure the wealthy elite pays NOTHING on their earnings above $90K, with the sliding scale I've mentioned.

[SoCalDem]

56. Actually it's 12.4 when you add the employer's share

The rising cost of FICA has been used as a regulator of actual pay increases to the workers' pockets too.. Had the FICA not been so high for all those years, wouldn;t you have loved to have had that "extra money that YOU EARNED" going into your share? ...

Remember the hub-bub they created with the "IT'S YOUR MONEY" SHIT OVER THE "TAX CUTS"???

Well..every schlub who earned under 90K had 100% of his/her money taxed by FICA, and did not see much of any tax-cut..just a 300 "payday loan" against their normal refunf the following April...
and of course the ones over 90K didn;t have to even PAY FICA on the amount over that..

[northzax]

69. try being an independant contractor

my real taxes, on 40 grand a year, is over 40%. if I tripled that, my tax percentage would actually decrease. that's just stupid.

[indepat]

78. No, it's f*cking Reagan voodoo trickle-down economics

[SammyWinstonJack]

73. Seems that there is one DUer in this thread that feels differently

Said that boomers refused to pay for their own retirements. :eyes: Must not be a boomer. :wow:

[SoCalDem]

74. heh-heh-heh.. I saw that..

I bet he/she never paid a 15.4% mortgage rate like we did..or had wage & price freezes (when the prime was somewhere around 20% if I recall)..

Back then the "investor class" was lovin' it, but the rest of us sure were struggling...at the very time we were starting families.. That's when the "wives gotta go to work" boom really started..

oh well..

[SoCalDem]

75. Found some interesting graphs & an article from that era

http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issuebriefs_ib148

A boomer born in 1950 was 29 at the beginning of the graph....just beginning a career path, probably with a kid or two, and desperately trying to buy a house..(prices were not so much the issue then, as was interest rate)..it's all relative..check out the "fun" unemployment rate:(

[SammyWinstonJack]

77. Yeah but ya know, it's us evil baby boomers, what's to blame for

EVERYTHING or so I have heard from non DU boomers.

[NuttyFluffers]

86. that reminds me of a weird "youth" magazine, Vice

it blamed everything in the known universe on the baby boomers. and somehow it came off as a very republican stealth magazine. all social programs were bad, all common decency was naive PC, the only thing to look up to was the greatest generation's pull-yerself-up-from-yer-bootstraps meme which isn't really appropriate because ww2 generation people were the first to say they relied on other people when times were hard... it was a weird free magazine.

i promptly finished it and threw it away feeling icky and violated. outside of vitriol, poorly crafted venomous humor, and a lame ayn rand pseudo-entrepeneurial angst there was nothing of substance to the free mag. no good music reviews, no good subculture info, no cultural insights, nothing. in fact several LTTE were complaining that it seemed like a GOP funded youth mag as well, and that the editor actually got so many that he felt compelled to reply... it was very weird.

so, FYI people, there's a lame mag out there building up some meme that baby boomers are the nexus of evil upon america. critical thinkers can easily see past the nonsense, but... there's gullible people out there. as a younger person i think generational differences are real and important to discuss, but generational warfare is stupid. we all have similar problems and should work together.

[smb]

94. Was That One Of Those Things...

...the LaRouchies hand out at street corners?

[NuttyFluffers]

99. nah, just a free mag at a music store, hidden waaay in the back

i think the owners knew that the mag sucked, but patronized the providers by keeping it. they just stuck it waaaay in an out of the way corner, tucked under a counter, between the wall and a trashcan... :evilgrin:

but it was pretty slick looking. glossy pages, tight square binding, moderate named skater gear, etc. really weird.

[raccoon]

92. Yep, I get tired of that too.

As I've pointed out, it was the power elite of the boomers who made these important financial/political decisions. As is true of any generation.

[ChiciB1]

88. MUST NOT BE!!

I Are One.... and as part of the middle class of "yore" and a Union family, we at least were able to sock a little away.

Now it seems we will have to "dip" into it just to live!!!

Trickle down, and the middle class has dried up!!!

[Gyre]

89. Then they will die.

:evilgrin:

Gyre

[fshrink]

15. The actual bankrupcy

and structural catastrophy is considered irrelevant in a world where image is the only measure of fact. Dictatorship of the image generalizes reframing as the only acceptable mode of discourse. As soon as a minor glitch creeps in (e.g. NOLA), a glimpse of reality fleetingly supercedes the image, soon to be reframed again and buried like a thread at the bottom a forum. This country had in 2000 the opportunity to face its crisis, starting with the point where it emerged, and it cowered. As I see it, this was a missed opportunity and it will not come back before facts strike.

[Roland99]

16. Almost Unnoticed, Bipartisan Budget Anxiety (WaPo - May, 2005) >>>>>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/17/AR2005051701238.html

With startling unanimity, they agreed that without some combination of big tax increases and major cuts in Medicare, Social Security and most other spending, the country will fall victim to the huge debt and soaring interest rates that collapsed Argentina's economy and caused riots in its streets a few years ago.

"The only thing the United States is able to do a little after 2040 is pay interest on massive and growing federal debt," Walker said. "The model blows up in the mid-2040s. What does that mean? Argentina."

...

"To do nothing," Butler added, "would lead to deficits of the scale we've never seen in this country or any major in industrialized country. We've seen them in Argentina. That's a chilling thought, but it would mean that."

...

Walker put U.S. debt and obligations at $45 trillion in current dollars -- almost as much as the total net worth of all Americans, or $150,000 per person. Balancing the budget in 2040, he said, could require cutting total federal spending as much as 60 percent or raising taxes to 2 1/2 times today's levels.

Butler pointed out that without changes to Social Security and Medicare, in 25 years either a quarter of discretionary spending would need to be cut or U.S. tax rates would have to approach European levels. Putting it slightly differently, Sawhill posed a choice of 10 percent cuts in spending and much larger cuts in Social Security and Medicare, or a 40 percent increase in government spending relative to the size of the economy, and equivalent tax increases.

:scared:

[ramapo]

19. It will get interesting

Iy has taken a long time to get into the mess we're headed for today. The deficits Reagan campaigned against have blown through the roof. Progress has been made on some environmental fronts but overall the world is worse off than 25 years ago. Sprawl is consuming the countryside. Our transportation system is a disaster. We learned NOTHING from the twin energy crisis of the 1970s.

Americans have been taught that taxes are bad and we shouldn't have to pay them, that we can spend much more than we earn, and that in basic terms there is a free lunch, along with free dinner and desert.

How this mess gets unwound is beyond my comprehension but unwind it will.

[hunter]

20. As the Soviet Union fell, so shall we.

Pray the corrupt rat bastards who brought us down do not profit from our collapse.

[endarkenment]

26. They always end up on top.

Look at the Kleptocracy that developed out of the former soviet union. The bastards just shape shift and end up on top of the next system. They are all Challabis.

But it will collapse. It will be sudden, it will be devastating. We will be wondering how it ever held together so long as we struggle in the ruins of our hollowed out shell of a system to feed our children and heat our homes.

[MarsThe Cat]

46. or in the guillotine...

french revolutions are cooooool.

[info being]

61. Of course they will

As an Eastern European. That's exactly how it works.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

21. And as always the most direct way out is the T word.

Taxes! Tax the corporations, tax the wealthy. How much money goes past the coffers of government due to tax dodges, loopholes, incentives and the like?
We have a revenue shortfall because some people, and organizations, are not paying their fair share.........

[William Bloode]

22. Tell me something i did not know 4-5yrs ago.

When Asshat and company first started talking of tax cuts due to the government surpluses there were economists screaming from the roof tops that this exact thing would be the result.

I guess they have almost realized Gingrich's dream of drowning the fed in a bath tub.

[sadiesworld]

55. I think it was Norquist who lusted after the drowning.

No matter--I'm sure it gives Gingrich the warm fuzzies too.

[William Bloode]

76. Yes you are right.

That was Grover wasn't it. Yeah i'm sure Newt thinks the same, he just wasn't dumb enought to say it. Though he did spew his share of vile filth.

[Megahurtz]

23. Pull the Troops OUT of Iraq!!!

Gee, ya think that might save some money? :think:

[devinsgram]

24. Just like the business' he was involved with

....ran them right into the ground, only daddy can't bail him out of this one.

[yorkiemommie1]

36. he was only practicin' back then

practicin' for the big one - running the entire country into the ground!

[redqueen]

25. Those tax cuts were great for the economy weren't they?

Idiots...

[endarkenment]

27. Not idiots - thieves. Rat bastard thieves. nt.

[redqueen]

28. True. Idiots does apply to the useful morons in the voting public, though.

They actually deserve the theives.

[endarkenment]

29. Indeed.

[xchrom]

30. ''Social Security benefits will

swamp the federal budget in coming decades.''

this guy and i MIGHT be on the same side re: financial trouble looming for the gov.

but taking away benefits from the citizens re:social security isn't the way to go.

our citizens need health care, social security, education -- what they don't need is a pentagon budget this big by HALF.

[redqueen]

32. Funny how that's not ever mentioned as something to be cut...

isn't it?

:grr:

[xchrom]

33. we think alike -- funny -- ha-ha.

[oregonindy]

31. Bush has borrowed more than all 42 previous presidents combined..

dont forget that

[toymachines]

42. Is that really true!?

rat bastard.

[oregonindy]

49. Yeah heres the link

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=%5CNation%5Carchive%5C200511/NAT20051104b.html

[NeoConsSuck]

34. Notice something strange about this article..

it's mother natures fault (hurricanes), it's all these damn baby boomers getting old, and in the middle of the room sits the elephant that no one wants to notice:

Where in the article does it mention the enormous military conquest budget?

http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm

[54anickel]

44. I tend to give Walker a pass on not pointing to details. He summed

it up quite nicely, and I believe put his ass on the line with this little gem -

It (the US) has a "broken business model." It faces deficits in its budget, its balance of payments, its savings — and its leadership.

[TheGunslinger]

59. That pales in comparison to the $45 *Trillion* in obligations

Almost Unnoticed, Bipartisan Budget Anxiety

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/17/AR2005051701238.html

[progressoid]

39. marking this one for late night reading

[Xithras]

41. Boomers are screwed.

I've looked at the numbers, and I can't see any other way to put it. This nation will not be able to repay the money borrowed from SS in the lifetimes of the boomers who paid into it. There's simply too much debt, and not enough income. Short of jacking the national income tax rate into the 70% range, it's economically impossible to fund SS at its current level AND maintain other government programs at their current levels. The math is simple: Once the boomers start retiring, the overall number of payers will begin a long and permanent drop. With fewer people paying in, there will be less money to pay out. Any shortfall would have to be made up by general budget funds.

As an Xer, I object to the notion that I should be forced to give up government programs to fund the Boomers retirements, when it was Boomers who blew their retirement money in the first place.

The Bush tax cuts didn't help, but revoking them wouldn't fix SS. Nothing short of a dramatic reduction in benefits would do that.

IMO, the govt needs to build housing complexes for retirees. Instead of paying them money which will then get spent on housing or whatever, we should offer food, shelter, and medical care without cash. It would basically do the same thing, but centralizing the process in government buildings would reduce its cost.

[MarsThe Cat]

43. what we need is another...pandemic?

Boomers are living longer than expected, too.

something will have to give.

i'm seeing a return to communal living for many.

[wiggs]

51. Younger boomers are really screwed

The tail end of the boomer generation (me) will be cashing pension fund stocks after everyone else has already sucked it dry. And we'll be asking for our social security payments and health benefits about the time the older boomers are really hitting the skids.

[raccoon]

64. "when it was Boomers who blew their retirement money in the first place."

How do you figure that? This one didn't.

Maybe you are referring to the baby boomers who are among the power elite in the US?

[llmart]

71. I'm a boomer and I take exception to your statement.....

Us boomers have been paying into SS for 40 years and we have been funding the WWII generations' SS. It's not like we haven't done our share.

[Xithras]

84. It's not a matter of doing your share.

First, your generation outnumbered the WWI generation, so you're "share" is much smaller than my generations share. We'll have to shell out far more money to care for your generation than you did for your parents.

Second, it's not my generations fault that the government that YOUR GENERATION elected spent the money that should have been saved for your retirement. I was in diapers and couldn't vote, protest, or rally to protect your SS. You could have. That money is now GONE, and it's not the fault of my generation.

You don't seriously expect Xers to slap themselves with 70+% taxes to keep the government running and fund your retirement, do you? The money doesn't exist in SS to pay you, so...as I said in the post above...the money has to come out of the general budget. That means sweeping cuts to programs across the board.

Personally, I kind of like the idea floated by one of the other people here. We can create "Old People Communes" around the country for the boomers. If done properly, they can provide all of the services that SS was supposed to for a fraction of the cost.

[raccoon]

93. For your information, Xithras, voting then is just like now.

A candidate who really would change things wasn't to be found.

PEOPLE are the ones who really change things, not politicians.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

97. You wanna play the blame game?

The boomers have paid their share into SS. By the time Clinton left office SS wasn't going to be a problem. The entire crisis that we now face is the result of Bush and his fellow Repubs in Congress destroying our government for the last 5 years. That's the government that YOUR GENERATION helped elect. The baby boomers aren't any more to blame than the Xers.

If you want to point fingers and yell at people, then yell at the right people--the Reagan and Bush administrations.

[NuttyFluffers]

87. SS is solvent. not worried about that. worried about currency valuation

as long as the economic backbone doesn't collapse upon itself SS will be fine. and all that demographics talk forgets that SS is pretty well managed and solvent by most estimates into 2040 (the earliest failure period repeated by republicans is 2013, which by all standards is too early and expecting, like, biblical cataclysmic failure).

what worries me is a coming depression. having social security as a security net going on will be a great cushion in case any such thing happens. that way there'd be some regular people getting some currency to circulate into the system a bit instead of wholly hoarded in the higher class. but devaluation of currency is gonna be horrendous, for everyone. these bastards are gonna shoot for riding the razor of gov't bankrupcy, which is empire suicide. these dipshits need to be hauled to the guillotine for the harm they've set us up for.

[Tom Joad]

45. Bring back Brownie, he'll do a heck of a job. Seriously though...

The bankruptcy is planned. The ruling class wants to bankrupt the US so then there could be very little argument to end programs like Social Security and Medicare. They don't need those things.

Noam Chomsky has written on this, but can't find references though.

[Freedomfried]

47. Republicans, the party that destroyed America

The helped the burglars get in the house.

[RazzleDazzle]

48. With a lot of help from far too many Democrats

eom

[Amonester]

52. Yep. And inside the National Bank too...

Money for Nothing
By Philip Giraldi, American Conservative 24/10/05

http://www.ocnus.net/artman/publish/article_21191.shtml

~ snips ~

... "There was also considerable money "off the books," including as much as $4 billion from illegal oil exports." ...

... "the country was awash in unaccountable money. British sources report that the CPA contracts that were not handed out to cronies were sold to the highest bidder, with bribes as high as $300,000" ...

... "The contracts were especially attractive because no work or results were necessarily expected in return." ...

... "A $500 million power-plant contract was reportedly awarded to a bidder based on a proposal one page long. After a joint commission rejected the proposal, its members were replaced by the minister, and approval was duly obtained. But no plant has been built." ...

... "Paul Bremer, meanwhile, had a slush fund in cash of more than $600 million in his office for which there was no paperwork. One U.S. contractor received $2 million in a duffel bag." ...

The alarm bell is ringing inside and outside the safe for 30 months.

Where in the world are police officers sleeping?? :boring: :boring:

In Switzerland? Caymans? Barbados?

Who are actually "busy" busting these MEGA- thieves?? The IRS?? :shrug:

The Congress?? :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring:

[AuntiBush]

54. Easy Fix!

1. Stop robbing the Treasury

2. Repeal tax's on 1 1/2 - 2% wealthiest of Americans

3. Cease sending un account $$$$$$ to Iraq

4. Stop giving no-bid $$ to Halliburton, Bechtel, Lockheed, etc.

5. Stop $$$$ to * on all those heavy-duty overseas trip w/huge entourage

6. Cease BIG OIL & Pharmaceutical co's from HUGE profits.

7. Hold BIG CEO's accountable. If we can't file bankruptcy so easily anymore, why should they!?!

The list goes on and on. If I can figure this crap out, others should/could.

[info being]

62. One one thing needs to be done:

Cut military spending substantially.

[midnight armadillo]

65. Yes, if by substantially you mean 4/5!!

Yup, let's go from 500 billion to 100 billion, which is still more than enough to protect borders and run a Navy and Air Force at overseas places. Of course, to do any major overseas military ops we'd need...allies!

[Hekate]

57. Trim all the money from the obscene nuclear weapons R&D for starters

Ramping up the nuclear arms race again is the last thing this country needs.

Bob Dylan's song Masters of War is so apt for the times we are living through: at least half of the US budget goes to the military in one form or another. They keep finding the wherewithal to pay military contractors inflated prices for goods no one uses, to pay military researchers -- yet they can't ensure that all our troops have appropriate armor and ammunition. It's FUBAR in spades.

Once I wrapped my mind around that I realized that this country has ALL the money it needs to take care of its citizens -- the old people, the little kids, the pregnant moms, the 40 million working stiffs who have no health insurance, the day care centers and universities and trade schools. There's ENOUGH money, but half of it is sucked up by "defense" that doesn't really defend us.

Or at least there WAS enough money when Bill Clinton left office.

Remember the faux TIME magazine cover that circulated just after Bush was selected (both times)? Bush's face, captioned: We Are F**ked.

Hekate

[ReaderSushi]

58. The fruit of Reagan's policies.

The man who brought down two superpowers.....

[true_notes]

63. Surprise Surprise

Just when I thought it couldn't get worse.

[november3rd]

67. good

Then finally they'll stop robbing the people to pay for wars and corporate welfare!

[sendero]

68. Of course it is..

... sooner rather than later.

I'm moving to the country in 5 years. I just hope things hold up that long.

Seroiusly, forget the boomers. If there wasn't a baby boom, we'd still be in trouble.

[twaddler01]

80. And here I am

thinking about moving to Canada before things get even worse.

[intensitymedia]

72. of course a little tax increase on the rich could solve everything

that's what they don't tell you when all the 'sky is falling' stories are paraded through the media.

tax the rich

simple as that

peace, but never give up the struggle

che

[Carolab]

83. DON'T BLAME THE BOOMERS. WE PAID OUR FAIR SHARE.

And then some.

THEY LOOTED THE TREASURY AND STOLE OUR MONEY! It's not OUR fault!

This is yet another argument to "reform social security" and destroy Medicare. FUCK THEM.

[daleo]

85. Clinton (liberal) turned the deficit around in the U.S.

Chretien (Liberal) did the same thing in Canada. It can be done, and surprisingly fast, if the will is there.

Chretien also put Canada Pension Plan on a solid footing. Since getting rid of Conservatives, it has been possible to correct a lot of their mistakes. The U.S. will have to get rid of its peculiar habit of electing Republican governments (yes, I know vote fraud is part of it).

[upi402]

90. buy gold

[oregonindy]

91. and silver and then go read about the Federal Reserve and how its not even

Owned by the government.


The following is a conversation with Mr. Ron Supinski of the Public Information Department of the San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank. This is an account of that conversation.

CALLER - Mr. Supinski, does my country own the Federal Reserve System?

MR. SUPINSKI - We are an agency of the government.

CALLER - That's not my question. Is it owned by my country?

MR. SUPINSKI - It is an agency of the government created by congress.

CALLER - Is the Federal Reserve a Corporation?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes

CALLER - Does my government own any of the stock in the Federal Reserve?

MR. SUPINSKI - No, it is owned by the member banks.

CALLER - Are the member banks private corporations?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes

CALLER - Are Federal Reserve Notes backed by anything?

MR. SUPINSKI-Yes, by the assets of the Federal Reserve but, primarily by the power of congress to lay tax on the people.

CALLER - Did you say, by the power to collect taxes is what backs Federal Reserve Notes?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes

CALLER - What are the total assets of the Federal Reserve?

MR. SUPINSKI - The San Francisco Bank has $36 Billion in assets.

CALLER - What are these assets composed of?

MR. SUPINSKI - Gold, the Federal Reserve Bank itself and government securities.

CALLER - What value does the Federal Reserve Bank carry gold per oz. on their books?

MR. SUPINSKI - I don't have that information but the San Francisco Bank has $1.6 billion in gold.

CALLER - Are you saying the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco has $1.6 billion in gold, the bank itself and the balance of the assets is government securities?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes.

CALLER - Where does the Federal Reserve get Federal Reserve Notes from?

MR. SUPINSKI - They are authorized by the Treasury.

CALLER - How much does the Federal Reserve pay for a $10 Federal Reserve Note?

MR. SUPINSKI - Fifty to seventy cents.

CALLER - How much do they pay for a $100.00 Federal Reserve Note?

MR. SUPINSKI - The same fifty to seventy cents.

CALLER - To pay only fifty cents for a $100.00 is a tremendous gain, isn't it?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes

CALLER - According to the US Treasury, the Federal Reserve pays $20.60 per 1,000 denomination or a little over two cents for a $100.00 bill, is that correct?

MR. SUPINSKI - That is probably close.

CALLER - Doesn't the Federal Reserve use the Federal Reserve Notes that cost about two cents each to purchase US Bonds from the government?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes, but there is more to it than that.

CALLER - Basically, that is what happens?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes, basically you are correct.

CALLER - How many Federal Reserve Notes are in circulation?

MR. SUPINSKI - $263 billion and we can only account for a small percentage.

CALLER - Where did they go?

MR. SUPINSKI - Peoples mattress, buried in their back yards and illegal drug money.

CALLER - Since the debt is payable in Federal Reserve Notes, how can the $4 trillion national debt be paid-off with the total Federal Reserve Notes in circulation?

MR. SUPINSKI - I don't know.

CALLER - If the Federal Government would collect every Federal Reserve Note in circulation would it be mathematically possible to pay the $4 trillion national debt?

MR. SUPINSKI - No

CALLER - Am I correct when I say, $1 deposited in a member bank $8 can be lent out through Fractional Reserve Policy?

MR. SUPINSKI - About $7.

CALLER - Correct me if I am wrong but, $7 of additional Federal Reserve Notes were never put in circulation. But, for lack of better words were "created out of thin air " in the form of credits and the two cents per denomination were not paid either. In other words, the Federal Reserve Notes were not physically printed but, in reality were created by a journal entry and lent at interest. Is that correct?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes

CALLER - Is that the reason there are only $263 billion Federal Reserve Notes in circulation?

MR. SUPINSKI - That is part of the reason.

CALLER - Am I mistaking that when the Federal Reserve Act was passed (on Christmas Eve) in 1913, it transferred the power to coin and issue our nation's money and to regulate the value thereof from Congress to a Private corporation. And my country now borrows what should be our own money from the Federal Reserve (a private corporation) plus interest. Is that correct and the debt can never be paid off under the current money system of country?

MR. SUPINSKI - Basically, yes.

CALLER - I smell a rat, do you?

MR. SUPINSKI - I am sorry, I can't answer that, I work here.

CALLER - Has the Federal Reserve ever been independently audited?

MR. SUPINSKI - We are audited.

CALLER - Why is there a current House Resolution 1486 calling for a complete audit of the Federal Reserve by the GAO and why is the Federal Reserve resisting?

MR. SUPINSKI - I don't know.

CALLER - Does the Federal Reserve regulate the value of Federal Reserve Notes and interest rates?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes

CALLER - Explain how the Federal Reserve System can be Constitutional if, only the Congress of the US, which comprises of the Senate and the House of representatives has the power to coin and issue our money supply and regulate the value thereof?

Nowhere, in the Constitution does it give Congress the power or authority to transfer any powers granted under the Constitution to a private corporation or, does it?

MR. SUPINSKI - I am not an expert on constitutional law. I can refer you to our legal department.

CALLER - I can tell you I have read the Constitution. It does NOT provide that any power granted can be transferred to a private corporation. Doesn't it specifically state, all other powers not granted are reserved to the States and to the citizens? Does that mean to a private corporation?

MR. SUPINSKI - I don't think so, but we were created by Congress.

CALLER - Would you agree it is our country and it should be our money as provided by our Constitution?

MR. SUPINSKI - I understand what you are saying.

CALLER - Why should we borrow our own money from a private consortium of bankers? Isn't this why we had a revolution, created a separate sovereign nation and a Bill of Rights?

MR. SUPINSKI - (Declined to answer).

CALLER - Has the Federal Reserve ever been declared constitutional by the Supreme Court?

MR. SUPINSKI - I believe there has been court cases on the matter.

CALLER - Have there been Supreme Court Cases?

MR. SUPINSKI - I think so, but I am not sure.

CALLER - Didn't the Supreme Court declare unanimously in A.L.A. Schechter Poultry Corp. vs. US and Carter vs. Carter Coal Co. the corporative-state arrangement an unconstitutional delegation of legislative power? <"The power conferred is the power to regulate. This is legislative delegation in its most obnoxious form; for it is not even delegation to an official or an official body, presumptively disinterested, but to private persons." Carter vs. Carter Coal Co...>

MR. SUPINSKI - I don't know, I can refer you to our legal department.

CALLER - Isn't the current money system a house of cards that must fall because, the debt can mathematically never be paid-off?

MR. SUPINSKI - It appears that way. I can tell you have been looking into this matter and are very knowledgeable. However, we do have a solution.

CALLER - What is the solution?

MR. SUPINSKI - The Debit Card.

CALLER - Do you mean under the EFT Act (Electronic Funds Transfer)? Isn't that very frightening, when one considers the capabilities of computers? It would provide the government and all it's agencies, including the Federal Reserve such information as: You went to the gas station @ 2:30 and bought $10.00 of unleaded gas @ $1.41 per gallon and then you went to the grocery store @ 2:58 and bought bread, lunch meat and milk for $12.32 and then went to the drug store @ 3:30 and bought cold medicine for $5.62. In other words, they would know where we go, when we went, how much we paid, how much the merchant paid and how much profit he made. Under the EFT they will literally know everything about us. Isn't that kind of scary?

MR. SUPINSKI - Yes, it makes you wonder.

CALLER - I smell a GIANT RAT that has overthrown my constitution. Aren't we paying tribute in the form of income taxes to a consortium of private bankers?

MR. SUPINSKI - I can't call it tribute, it is interest.

CALLER - Haven't all elected officials taken an oath of office to preserve and defend the Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic? Isn't the Federal Reserve a domestic enemy?

MR. SUPINSKI - I can't say that.

CALLER - Our elected officials and members of the Federal Reserve are guilty of aiding and abetting the overthrowing of my Constitution and that is treason. Isn't the punishment of treason death?

MR. SUPINSKI - I believe so.

CALLER - Thank you for your time and information and if I may say so, I think you should take the necessary steps to protect you and your family and withdraw your money from the banks before the collapse, I am.

MR. SUPINSKI - It doesn't look good.

CALLER - May God have mercy on the souls who are behind this unconstitutional and criminal act called the Federal Reserve. When the ALMIGHTY MASS awakens to this giant hoax, they will not take it with a grain of salt. It has been a pleasure talking to you and I thank you for your time. I hope you will take my advice before it does collapse.

MR. SUPINSKI - Unfortunately, it does not look good.

CALLER - Have a good day and thanks for your time.

MR. SUPINSKI - Thanks for calling.



If the reader has any doubts to the validity of this conversation, call your nearest Federal Reserve Bank, YOU KNOW THE QUESTIONS TO ASK! You won't find them listed under the Federal Government. They are in the white pages, along with Federal Express, Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. (FDIC), and any other business. Find out for yourself if all this is true.

And then, go to your local law library and look up the case of Lewis vs. US, case #80-5905, 9th Circuit, June 24, 1982. It reads in part: "Examining the organization and function of the Federal Reserve Banks and applying the relevant factors, we conclude that the federal reserve are NOT federal instrumentality's . . but are independent and privately owned and controlled corporations - federal reserve banks are listed neither as "wholly-owned' government corporations nor as 'mixed ownership' corporations . . . 28 USC Sections 1346(b), 2671. '

Federal agency' is defined as: the executive departments, the military departments, independent establishments of the United States, and corporations acting primarily as instrumentality's of the United States, but does not include any contractors with the United States . . . There are no sharp criteria for determining whether an entity is a federal agency within the meaning of the Act, but the critical factor is the existence of the federal government control over the 'detailed physical performance' and 'day to day operations' of that entity.

[converted_democrat]

95. Holy shit.....That is the scariest thing I've read in awhile.

I have always had questions about how "stable" our currency is, and I have always wondered if it would actually be possible for our system to "crash." This is worse than I ever imagined, ever.