BBC News: Venezuela threatens US over F-16s (spare parts supply problem)

[Up2Late]

(Maybe * doesn't fully understand how dependant we are on the Oil coming from Venezuela?)

Wednesday, 2 November 2005, 11:45 GMT

Venezuela threatens US over F-16s

President Hugo Chavez has warned the US he could give some of his country's F-16 fighter jets to Cuba or China.

Mr Chavez accused the US of breaking a contract to supply spare parts for the jets it sold to Venezuela in the 1980s. He suggested that Washington would be less than pleased if military rivals gained access to the advanced planes.

The F-16s were sold to previous governments that had better relations with the White House. The US sees Mr Chavez as an unfriendly head of state. The Venezuelan president's latest provocative announcement came during a nationally televised address, dominated by appeals to Latin Americans to end the dominance of the US.

Speaking of the fighter planes, he said he was "only thinking out loud". "Maybe we will just send them back to them, or perhaps we will send 10 planes to Cuba, or to China, so they can have a look at the technology of these aircraft."

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4398914.stm>
(more at link above)

[neuvocat]

1. Wow. This guy is shrewd!

He's a very, very apt politician.

[rinsd]

49. Huh?

Threatening to export US military technology to our rivals is shrewd?

Sounds more like a death wish to me.

[Say_What]

2. Mr. Danger and Co. need many bottles of Maalox these days

[bananas]

3. Reminds me of Iran-Contra

Iran needed spare parts for its F-14s...

[Up2Late]

4. They still have them in "moth balls" out in the desert.

Inside of bunkers though. Them suckers are practically un-used, I bet our Navy would love to have those, right about now.

[davepc]

14. The F-14 has been retired from service

Why would our Navy love to have 20 year old Iranian planes that it no longer uses?

[Up2Late]

23. No, The F-14B and F-14D are still in service until 2007 and 2008

But the F-14A's are being phased out because of all the flight hours they have on the engines and airframes.

<http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/aircraft/air-f14.html>

"...Current plan is to have Tomcats in service until mid-FY07. Tomcat squadrons have already started to transition to the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet aircraft, and will continue to transition in a phased approach..."

<http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-14.htm>

"...The original design airframe life for the F-14 was 6,000 hours, but was later extended to 7,200 hours. The Navy intends to retire the F-14A force by 2003-4, F-14B by 2007, and the F-14D by 2008...."

[davepc]

24. Your sources are two years out of date.

Last updated: 5 July 2003

Only two squadrons are still flying the F-14 (VF-213 and VF-31), and those will go offline in the next few months as the carrier they are based on go through its normal rotation.

The squadrons will get an "A" attached to their designation and switch to the F/A-18

September 19, 2005

The Navy’s “Top Gun” planes are on their last combat mission.

The two squadrons of active F-14 Tomcats left Naval Air Station Oceana, Va., and joined the carrier Theodore Roosevelt, which pulled out of Norfolk Naval Station on Sept. 1 en route to the Persian Gulf.

...

“Some people have devoted their whole lives to maintaining it,” LaBranche said. “To see it go away is an emotional event.”

When VF-31 and VF-213 return to the Virginia Beach base, the process of converting to F/A-18s will begin. LaBranche’s squadron will go last, making the final switch to Super Hornets in the next year.

http://www.navytimes.com/print.php?f=0-NAVYPAPER-1087079.php

edit: typos, add Navy Times link.

[jayfish]

37. With The Retiring Of The F14, Will The...

phoenix also be retired? Since the end of the Cold War I haven't kept up with military hardware as much as I used to, but If I remember correctly the F14 was pretty much built around the AIM-54 and the AIM-54 around the F-14. That thing is a monster.

Jay

[davepc]

41. Yup

No other platform in the military can deploy it as far as I know. And its primary mission of shooting down Russian nuclear bombers heading for the United States basically doesn't exist anymore. At least not on a scale that requires a dedicated weapon system.

[jayfish]

42. Actually The AIM-54s Primary Role...

is/was fleet defense. One of the things that was so amazing about it is that it could be used to destroy anti-ship missiles. No other a2a missile (that I can remember) is bigger, faster or has a greater range than the Phoenix. I wonder if the could retrofit it as a stationary AA system. It would make a hell of a compliment to the phalanx system.

Jay

[davepc]

43. I stand corrected!

:)

[termo]

47. no more fire and forget missile for the navy ?

amraam isn't f&f ?
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/missiles/wep-amr.html
that says: "less dependent", which is a bit confusing...

[jayfish]

48. Courtesy Of Global Defense.org

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/aim-120.htm

In long-range engagements AMRAAM heads for the target using inertial guidance and receives updated target information via data link from the launch aircraft. It transitions to a self-guiding terminal mode when the target is within range of its own monopulse radar set. The AIM-120 also has a "home-on-jam" guidance mode to counter electronic jamming. With its sophisticated avionics, high closing speed, and excellent end-game maneuverability, chances of escape from AMRAAM are minimal. Upon intercept an active-radar proximity fuze detonates the 40-pound high-explosive warhead to destroy the target. At closer ranges AMRAAM guides itself all the way using its own radar, freeing the launch aircraft to engage other targets.

It's basically a fire and forget later system. It' probably a ton less expensive than the Phoenix but it sure doesn't seem better.

Jay

[Judi Lynn]

5. Same subject, different treatment!

Chavez hints at selling F-16s to China, Cuba


ISN SECURITY WATCH (Wednesday, 2 October: 22:40 CET) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said his country might give F-16 fighter jets bought from the US to Cuba or even China.

Chavez made the comments during a nationally televised address in which he accused the US of failing to honor an agreement to provide Venezuela with the spare parts need to maintain the planes.

The US sold the fighters to Venezuela in the 1980’s when the two nations had closer ties. Officials said that sending the planes to other countries would constitute a breech of an agreement to protect F-16 technology.

In recent years, the left-wing Chavez has become an ardent critic of the Bush administration and has even accused Washington of plotting his overthrow.
(snip/...)

http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?ID=13371

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

They neglected to claim Hugo Chavez threatened to sell the jets. Are they just too slow, or did they drop the propaganda ball?

[Judi Lynn]

6. Yet another source forgets to mention the terrifying threat.

Chavez may sell F-16 planes to China, Cuba
CARACAS, Venezuela, Nov. 2 (UPI) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has suggested his country might sell F-16 fighter jets to Cuba or even China, El Nacional reported Wednesday.

Chavez made the comments during a nationally televised address in which he accused the United States of failing to honor an agreement to provide Venezuela with spare parts need to maintain the planes.
(snip/...)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20051102-16164600-bc-venezuela-planes.xml

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

According to this article, the original source for this story is El Nacional, an opposition-owned publication in Venzuela.

[Up2Late]

8. They also forgot to proof-read their "Breaking News," too.

Man, have they gotten sloppy over there at UPI or what?

Chavez made the comments during a nationally televised address in which he accused the United States of failing to honor an agreement to provide Venezuela with spare parts need to maintain the planes.

Are the spare parts not cooperating in their obligation to maintain the Jets? :shrug:

And it's so important, they gave it 4 sentances... Sheesh, I wish the moonies would sell UPI.

It's so short, here's the rest of it:

The United States sold the fighters to Venezuela in the 1980's when the two nations had closer ties.

Now, the left-wing Chavez has become an ardent critic of the Bush administration and has even accused it of plotting the Venezuelan president's overthrow.

In turn, the White House has said Chavez is trying to sow the seeds of socialist ideals throughout Latin America, supporting leftist groups in neighboring Colombian and in Bolivia.

<http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20051102-16164600-bc-venezuela-planes.xml>

[Up2Late]

9. Hey, that ISN completely ripped off the UPI story in #6

They didn't even fix the proof-reading error either.

Man, they better hope the Moonies don't find out or they are going to be in big trouble.

[lovuian]

7. Ohh boy Chavez really got Bush's number!!!

Ya thinking aloud riigghtt!!!

[Chicago Democrat]

10. Crazy fun guy! Viva Chavez!

Viva Cuba!

Patria ou Muerte!!

[pinniped]

11. Cuba can't get parts for their old US made cars.

They might be able to keep the F-16s in running order.

[Judi Lynn]

12. They MAKE their own car parts. Amazing.

CU Classic Cars

6 June 2002


The New York Times - There is one thing about present-day Cuba that unfailingly leaves visiting Americans awestruck: the sight of streets filled with 1950's Chevrolets, Buicks, Fords, Chryslers and Cadillacs, some as well-maintained as those in the hands of vintage car collectors in the United States. The fleet, estimated at about 60,000, is believed to be the largest collection of classic American cars outside the United States, and is as much a part of the Cuban landscape as palm trees. But behind the shiny chrome and tail fins is a world of need, improvisation and sheer Darwinism. Cuban mechanics cannibalize Russian Ladas and Volgas for parts. They make exact replicas of 1950's hood ornaments and windshields from scratch. For brake fluid, they use a concoction of oil, shampoo and soap. "And it works!" says Julio, a taxi driver and one of the subjects in the PBS documentary, "Classic American Cars of Cuba," which is being broadcast in the New York area on Channel 21 as part of a fund-raising drive for public television. "Classic American Cars," to be shown nationwide in August, focuses on the remarkable survival of a byproduct of the revolution that gives Cuba much of its frozen-in-time quality. The cars are far from being just a tourist attraction. After Fidel Castro took power in 1959, the United States imposed its economic embargo on the Communist island, halting imports of American consumer goods. People held on to them out of necessity; besides, they were certainly preferable to the boxy Russian and Eastern European models that eventually flooded the market. Now, more than 40 years later, while the cars are still used for daily transportation, often as taxis, they have also become cherished heirlooms handed down from generation to generation within families, in some cases going all the way back to the 1930's. "They started with necessity, but now there's a pride in the cars," said Terrel Cass, general manager of WLIW in New York, the public television station that produced the one-hour program for PBS. "Everybody in Cuba seems to be a mechanic," he said. "Every two or three blocks you see a car jacked up and someone under it working on it." The ubiquitous car trouble points to a bigger problem: each day these cars get closer to extinction. Leo Eaton, the program's writer, producer and director, said he was told by Cubans that five years ago about one in every three cars on the street was a pre-1960 American model. Last November, when Mr. Eaton was in Cuba filming, only about one in every five cars was, he said. They are outnumbered by Lada compacts, Volga sedans and more recent European and Japanese imports. American car enthusiasts who have organized in recent years to advocate for the Cuban antiques - some of them served as consultants to the PBS show - say the biggest threats to the cars are the scarcity of parts and lack of original factory literature to maintain them with uniform standards. A group known as TailLight Diplomacy formed under the aegis of the United States-Cuba Sister Cities Association, which promotes relationships between Americans and Cubans, has approached Cuban government officials to propose cultural exchanges among Cuban and American vintage car lovers. They hope to promote the classic cars as a national cultural asset, like the cable cars of San Francisco or the gondolas of Venice. To do their part, the Americans want to ship parts, from door handles to carburetors, down to Cuba by the container full, along with repair manuals, paint specifications and other information that would ensure they are restored to internationally accepted standards. "The performance standards we're advocating would make them last another 48 years," said Rick Shnitzler, the group's lead organizer and an urban planning consultant in Philadelphia. Mr. Shnitzler said only in Cuba have history and circumstance combined to enable a whole society to preserve the cars and turn them into a national treasure.
(snip)

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:s9t7AfeD2aoJ:www.ibike.org/cuba/library/CU%2520Classic%2520Cars.rtf+Cuban+car+parts+body+shop+owners&hl=en

[saigon68]

13. KOOL CARS

Reminds me of my youth

[rfkrfk]

16. why do Cubans make their own brake fluid?

when brake fluid from US, Japan, Europe, ect ,
is available in a hundred-plus countries worldwide.

I advise everyone here, --> buy <-- brake fluid, for brakes.

[Judi Lynn]

17. The more than 45 year old U.S. embargo on Cuba.

Imported items cost many times more to people on the island than they would ordinarily pay.

[davepc]

18. How does the embargo make European, Asian, Canadian, and Latin American

goods cost more then they otherwise would?

[Judi Lynn]

19. Maybe this would help slightly.....

Cuba's Economy and the Embargo
Being cash strapped is only part of the problem. The embargo, first imposed in 1962 at the height of the Cold War, was strengthened by the U.S. Congress during the 1990s. The Helms/Burton Act penalized other countries doing business with Cuba, preventing their ships from using U.S. ports and barring company officials from entering this country. It also allowed the president to impose sanctions on countries trading with Cuba and codified the embargo making it a federal law, instead of an executive order.

This forced Cuba to rely on European and Asian suppliers and markets. Since Helms/Burton prevents ships trading with Cuba from docking at U.S. ports, import costs have shot up because these vessels from across the Atlantic or from Asia only can haul Cuban products for the long trip home. With their economy weakened by the fall of the Soviet Union, Cubans have little product to export.
(snip/...)

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/agri/cuba0102.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It will help you get an idea about this if you invest some time trying to learn about the embargo and the later embargo-related legislation just the way the rest of us had to do.

[davepc]

20. Thanks for the link

and the snark.

Have a great day!

:toast:

[rfkrfk]

21. difficult to believe,

it would cost next to nothing extra,
to have something shipped to Jamaica, DomincanRepublic, etc, etc,
and then have it trans-shipped to Cuba.

IMO,
Castro wants the people to be angry at the US,
so he doesn't let stuff in, but blames the US.
I don't buy the 'high price' BS, either.
How much does Castro pay his merchant sailors to pick stuff up
in a nearby port?,
probably, not much.

[Judi Lynn]

22. It's pointless to discuss this if you don't know about the subject.......

Here's another illustration of the costs of imports on the island. (By the way, you could benefit by talking to anyone who has ever lived on an island, even Hawaii. They will help you grasp the problem about ordinary expenses, even WITHOUT the burden of an embargo.)

A Cuban official in charge of finding and paying for food from abroad recounted her frustration with the embargo. "To ship a thousand tons of powdered milk from New Zealand, I must pay $150,000, when bringing the same amount from Miami would only cost me $25,000," she says.
While the U.S. government forces Cuba to pay six times more than necessary for children to drink milk and shuts off the supply for medical screening tests, it scurries to sell more Boeing planes to China, to open new Nike factories in Vietnam and even finds ways to ship food to North Korea. The last time anybody looked, these were socialist countries too, at least in name.
After all his homilies criticizing the lack of individual freedom and the evils of communism, the 77-year-old pope, no less a dictator within his church than the 71 -year-old Castro is within his party, still managed in his parting words to condemn the U.S. embargo for striking "the population indiscriminately, making it ever more difficult for the weakest to enjoy the bare essentials of decent living."
(snip/...)

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Human_Rights/Cuba_embargo.html

[rfkrfk]

25. that's the price, CASTRO charges, in Cuban stores

don't confuse, the price an individual pays in a Cuban store,

with the price the nation of Cuba pays.


Cuba, as a nation, pays the same WORLD WHOLESALE price
as everyone else.
It's not my fault, Castro marks up the price a lot.

[Judi Lynn]

26. You should provide a link to an article substantiating your claim.

There are DU'ers here who have spent substantial time in Cuba and none of them has ever mentioned your charge. I've never heard of it in my life.

Please provide credible sources. WE can't take your assertion as fact.

[rfkrfk]

27. that's because they only see the retail price, discussion

I don't have a link, sorry,
don't believe everyting you read , btw.

OK, why is the price so high on 'some item',
when the country of Cuba can buy anything , and have it
delived to a nearby port.

this is similiar to the 'cost' of gasoline in the Netherlands,
'cost' is seven bucks a gallon.
I would not use the term 'cost',
I would use the term 'posted price'.
{the last time I looked at commodity gasoline trading}
gasoline costs the country of Netherlands about
$1.60 a gallon,to import, just like everywhere else.
The posted price includes duty and tax.

Do you think Castro is going to let some NGO just
waltz in and give stuff away?
...that cuts HIM, out of the deal.
The NGO has to pay 'Cuba, Inc., F. Castro, CEO '

[Judi Lynn]

28. No, you shouldn't believe everything you read. Definitely not.

You have to engage your brain first, during, and after.

You need to take the initiative and start trying to find out for yourself. It's not going to come to you. Why do you think _{George W. Bush} has made Cuba almost totally off-limits to all Americans? What is he trying to hide? What doesn't he want you to see? Many Americans have been there already, and want to go back. Some Americans risk jail and heavy fines, and still go through 3rd countries. Why do they want to go back? Don't you ever think about things? Time waits for no man.

Manipulating Public Opinion
How the corporate-owned capitalist press has served in the crusade against Cuba tells us a lot about why the U.S. public is so misinformed about issues relating to that country. Following the official White House line, the corporate news media regularly denies that the United States harbors aggressive designs against Cuba or any other government. The stance taken against Cuba, it was said, was simply a defense against communist aggrandizement. Cuba was repeatedly condemned as a tool of Soviet aggression and expansionism. But now that the Soviet Union no longer exists, Cuba is still treated as a mortal enemy. U.S. acts of aggression-including armed invasion-continue to be magically transformed into acts of defense.
Consider the Bay of Pigs. In April 1961, about 1,600 right-wing Cuban ëmigrés, trained and financed by the CIA, and assisted by hundreds of U.S. "advisors," invaded Cuba. In the words of one of their leaders, Manuel de Varona (as quoted in the New York Daily News, January 8, 1961), their intent was to overthrow Castro and set up "a provisional government" that "will restore all properties to the rightful owners." Reports of the impending invasion circulated widely throughout Central America. In the United States, however, few people were informed. The mounting evidence of an impending invasion was suppressed by the Associated Press and United Press International and by all the major newspapers and newsweeklies-in an impressively unanimous act of self-censorship.
Fidel Castro's accusation that U.S. rulers were planning to invade Cuba was dismissed by the New York Times as "shrill... anti-American propaganda," and by Time magazine as Castro's "continued tawdry little melodrama of invasion." When Washington broke diplomatic relations with Cuba in January 1961, the New York Times explained, "What snapped U.S. patience was a new propaganda offense from Havana charging that the U.S. was plotting an 'imminent invasion' of Cuba." In fact, the Bay of Pigs invasion proved to be something more than a figment of Fidel Castro's imagination.
Such is the predominance of the anti-communist orthodoxy in U.S. public life that, after the Bay of Pigs, there was a total lack of critical discussion among U.S. political figures and media commentators regarding the moral and legal impropriety of the invasion. Instead, commentary focused exclusively on tactical questions. There were repeated references to the disappointing "fiasco" and "disastrous attempt" and the need to free Cuba from the "communist yoke." It was never acknowledged that the invasion failed not because of "insufficient air coverage," as some of the invaders claimed, but because the Cuban people, instead of rising to join the counterrevolutionary expeditionary force as anticipated by U.S. leaders, closed ranks behind their Revolution.
(snip/...)

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Caribbean/US_Aggression_Cuba.html

[rfkrfk]

29. let me add ...

you just can't hire a cargo ship, and bring stuff to Cuba.
You need their permission.
They don't just give that away.

When a NGO wants to help poor Cubans,
one way or the other, you pay Fidel,
either, buy it from a state-store, or shipped by the state, something like that,
and THAT is the cost they {the NGO} will discuss and complain about,
{posted price to the NGO, world-cost plus graft}
{Fidel might allow exceptions, from time to time}

This is not all that unique to Cuba.
Lots of little countries, that have difficulty collecting taxes,
they rely on import duty. These countries are very picky about how things get imported.

[Judi Lynn]

31. Oh, jeez! Here's where I get out. I've got to go to sleep.

Sorry, I don't begin to understand what you just wrote!

[foflappy]

35. of course the corporate owned capitalist press is much more biased than

an opinion (sprinkled with pejorative phrase) posted online. yeah right....

Independent media is not independent of bias...think about that ...if you can practice what you preach. :)

[0007]

30. No one here is accusing you of anything except ignorance

and lack of transparency.

[foflappy]

34. As transparent as castro's elections

:)

[foflappy]

33. why so arrogant??

maybe people come to a different interpretation of the facts??

That does not make them ignorant of the subject.

[redqueen]

46. What facts? Why are you two so dead set against providing any?

:rofl:

[foflappy]

57. facts are everywhere

just look if you are not blind to truths beyond your own...(note: I use the term "your own" as a generality, as i, myself am included in the term)opinions are where its at on silly message boards..oh look I can cut and paste from other web sites to "prove" my point...silly and immature I am in it for the opinion (and the subsequent argument) there are many points that I have seen articulated on DU that have informed my opinion.....


I find many of the "facts" used to support various opinions here to be lacking of context and generally pointless in the furtherance of the truth....opinions can be had for free and all the information is out there to decide upon...


in regards to the Post that you responded to the point was that the poster that I replied to had an (IMO) arrogant tone toward the person they were responding to...

[redqueen]

68. The tone is unimportant, the substance is.

So far, you and that other poster have provided nothing in the way of actual substance.

Forgive us if we don't take your opinions seriously, seeing as how you refuse to back them up with anything. You don't have to cut and paste, simply cite references. It's standard procedure for any type of non-fiction work, you know.

[0007]

51. Like twisting the truth around to fit your beliefs, 'eh?

[foflappy]

58. The truth is only twisted

when the messenger is aware of unresolved contradictions of the facts. These contradictions may not be apparent to the messenger or the information that they are using may be incorrect or incomplete. An opinion based on the known facts may not agree with another but this dose not constitute a "twisting" of the facts.

not replying to the intent of the post is annoying to me...

have a good one:)

[0007]

64. You'll always be annoyed my friend, because you can't

separate the facts from your bias beliefs, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment.

have good one:)

[davepc]

15. bit of a bluster

Those planes are hardly state of the art, and I doubt there's anything about them China doesn't already know.

Cuba wouldn't be able to do much with them either. Might score some propaganda points, but from a security perspective its a meaningless thing.

[foflappy]

32. BLAH BLAH BLAH more hot air from down south....

chavez hates bush=chavez good hahahahahahahhahahahahahah...

when bush makes threats we all scream and yell but when chavez makes threats it is good?????? love the logic..

I really wish that people would study the facts (on all sides ) of the Chavez presidency and not blindly cheer him on because he says he will help the poor(check out the facts about the poverty) or his calls for justice (check out the extra judicial practices and political prisoners not to mention the 'liberal' use of the death penalty) :(

Oh well I guess since I have studied the facts and come to a conclusion (my opinion based on my understanding of the facts) that Chavez is a con man (until otherwise proven, yes if everything turns out fine for Venezuela due to Chavez policy I would gladly look again at his tactics)

I just wonder why many in the US can find fault with our domestic policy and our elections and not be taken aback by what is going on in Venezuela?

black lists, political prisoners, threats etc....

go ahead call me names or call for me to be banished for my "free speech' ....... there are some who see behind the con...

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[400Years]

39. You post nothing but assertions void of facts

perhaps you should try harder floppy

[redqueen]

45. "black lists, political prisoners, threats etc...."?

Back it up. Source & evidence.

Until you provide that, um... enjoy your stay. :)

[Flanker]

50. Your facts are mostly unsubstantiated

I really wish that people would study the facts (on all sides ) of the Chavez presidency and not blindly cheer him on because he says he will help the poor(check out the facts about the poverty)

Poverty has gone down, or at least when there is no sabotage.

http://oilwars.blogspot.com/2005/10/chavez-fights-poverty-and-succeeds.html
http://oilwars.blogspot.com/2005/10/chavez-fights-poverty-and-succeeds_27.html
http://oilwars.blogspot.com/2005/10/chavez-fights-poverty-and-succeeds_31.html



Of course that is just a arbitrary standard of poverty, it is good however that it is dropping.

liberal' use of the death penalty)

What? Link?

Oh well I guess since I have studied the facts and come to a conclusion (my opinion based on my understanding of the facts)

What facts?

that Chavez is a con man

Maybe, but there is no evidence to back up such an accusation.


I just wonder why many in the US can find fault with our domestic policy and our elections

This board is more progressive than most other forums, if you want to criticize social programs then other sites might be more in your interest. As for elections why should people be taken aback by one of the cleanest elections ever as observed by Carter? There were some irregularities (mostly incompetence) but less than other elections of such scale.

black lists, political prisoners, threats etc....

The black lists were more of a grass root initiative, of course it was decried by the government itself and its practice is declining, political prisoners... depends on your definition... is Delay (if indicted) a political prisoner? He does threaten everybody though ;)

[foflappy]

54. tascon decride by government?????

i guess there is no need for a court case then???

I guess Amnesty Int is not to be trusted or millions of anti chavez citizens....

might be a point of view that pleases some dictatorial socialists...

Independent observers can ONLY MAKE OBSERVATIONS ON THE RULE OF LAW IN REGARDS TO AN ELECTION in other words an independant observer would say that th eelections in cuba or north korea are just swell because they folow the rule of law

ha I am amazed by the amount of trust some have for Venezuelas gov. in regards to information (poverty stats) when so many here do not trust the US government.....

[Flanker]

56. I am amazed that somebody could trust you without any evidence

"tascon decride by government?????"

i guess there is no need for a court case then???


It is certainly better than letting it carry on, besides there is no evidence that the list was released maliciously, instead of the deputy's line that it was for fraud verification (if your name was put on the list without you signing it).

IF you have evidence, I would love to see it. That said even though I do not question the legality of the action he (Tascon) should have quit over it.

Independent observers can ONLY MAKE OBSERVATIONS ON THE RULE OF LAW IN REGARDS TO AN ELECTION in other words an independant observer would say that th eelections in cuba or north korea are just swell because they folow the rule of law

False, observers were there to make sure that the elections were fair. Read the Carter center's report. Enforcing the law is up to the police.


ha I am amazed by the amount of trust some have for Venezuelas gov. in regards to information (poverty stats) when so many here do not trust the US government.....

And what statistics do you trust then? even so much as link to? I don't believe in statistics on a vacuum (iw poverty is much higher than 35%), I belive in trends. Venezuela's INE defines poverty as income below a 'canasta basica' and extreme poverty as income below 'canasta alimenticia' Both numbers have been decreasing since mid 2003. Showing a downward trend, Ironically the oposition used those same statistics from 99 til 03 to prove that poverty was increasing.

[foflappy]

60. I would disagree with your interpretaion of

the role of election observers.

If your position were true then what would an observer do if confronted with a situtaion that was within the law (gerrymandering, double ballots etc...) but they deamed unfair??

It is my understanding that an election observor may only judge that the elections were carried out in accordance with the law if I am incorrect please cite a source that can enlighten me.(not to prove anything to me but to help me understand your point of view)

In regard to the tascon list (or as it has now been allowed the Chavez list) please refer to citations of current court cases in Venezualea.

I personally am skaptical of ALL statistics as it is very often unknown to the casual observer what particular tools or filters were used to produce the statistic.

I would belive that there is most likely a valid argument that both the Chaves supporters and the opposition have manipulated the numbers to suit their ends....

[Flanker]

63. Observers go for fair and just

Since the accord, the Center and the OAS were invited by the CNE to observe the entire recall effort. Along the way, the Center and the OAS have been working with both sides and with the electoral authorities to get consensus on the "rules of the game" at each step of the process so the outcome can be respected as fair and just

http://cartercenter.com/activities/showdoc.asp?submenu=activities&countryID=87



I personally am skaptical of ALL statistics as it is very often unknown to the casual observer what particular tools or filters were used to produce the statistic.

I would belive that there is most likely a valid argument that both the Chaves supporters and the opposition have manipulated the numbers to suit their ends....

Then how can you be so positive that poverty has increased?

[High Plains]

52. Oh, you again...

...grinding that axe.

[foflappy]

61. Better than blind faith..any day :)

[Judi Lynn]

53. Why would you claim Hugo Chavez applies a ""liberal" use of the death

penalty?" Venezuela has no death penalty.

Based on information up to December 2002, the following statistics were prepared.

The 71 retentionist countries and areas that retain the death penalty for ordinary crimes were: Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahamas, Bangladesh, Belarus, Botswana, Burundi, Cameroon, Chad, China, Comoros, Cuba, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Egypt, Equatorial Guinea, Ethiopia, Ghana, Guatemala, Guyana, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Malawi, Malaysia, Mongolia, Morocco, Nigeria, Oman, Pakistan, the Philippines, Qatar, the Republic of Korea, Russia, Rwanda, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Saudi Arabia, Sierra Leone, Singapore, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tajikistan, Tanzania, Thailand, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, United States, Uzbekistan, Viet Nam, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe. Taiwan and Palestine are also retentionist.

The 77 countries that were completely abolitionist were: Andorra, Angola, Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Belgium, Bolivia, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Canada, Cape Verde, Colombia, Costa Rica, Côte d'Ivoire, Croatia, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Djibouti, the Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Estonia, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Guinea-Bissau, Haiti, the Holy See, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Kiribati, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Malta, Marshall Islands, Mauritius, Micronesia, Moldova, Monaco, Mozambique, Namibia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Palau, Panama, Paraguay, Poland, Portugal, Romania, San Marina, São Tomé and Principe, Seychelles, Slovakia, Slovenia, Solomon Islands, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Timor-Leste, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu, Ukraine, the United Kingdom, Uruguay, Vanuatu, Venezuela, Yugoslavia.
(snip)

http://www.hri.ca/fortherecord2003/vol1/deathchr.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Please provide sources for your claims Hugo Chavez's administration is not making major inroads in bringing help to the poor.

Likewise with your charge of political prisoners.

Threats? Blacklists? You need sources to back up your charges.

[foflappy]

55. everyone need sources

even the Chavez lovers... two way street babyyyyy....

[0007]

65. Interesting reply!!!

It that you're best counter in answering an intelligent post?

If so. Your on a one way dirt road sweeeeetheart.

[Solon]

66. As far as I can tell...

You only spread FUD without even talking about facts at all, I would dare say that you behave more like a disruptor than someone who genuinely wants to add to the debate.

[Tight_rope]

62. Chavez hates Bush....Can you blame him.

More then half of the US hates Bush too.

[Stella_Artois]

40. I like his style

China wouldn't learn much from a 20 year old F16 though. Maybe an example of the latest production block, but not those 20 year old ones.

[Psephos]

44. He should keep them to strafe Halloween trick-or-treaters n/t

[Deja Q]

59. China, eh? Don't whine *, it's just business. You know,

like our companies giving China all our jobs.

Bring up the "China is an evil communist country" and you'll be laughed at because everybody knows American corporations have been treating with the enemy for decades now.

[oblivious]

67. This could never have happened if * hadn't invaded Iraq.

Before Iraq there was the memory of Desert Storm and fear of the mighty US military machine. Now Venezuela and Iran taunt Bush over and over because they feel no fear anymore.

And * can do nothing. Just bathe in the humiliation.