NYT: Commerce and Religion Collide on (Arizona) Mountainside

[DeepModem Mom]

Commerce and Religion Collide on a Mountainside
By RANDAL C. ARCHIBOLD
Published: October 23, 2005


FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. - In the view of American Indians here, the spirits that inhabit the San Francisco Peaks, towering 12,000-foot-plus mountains rising from the desert here, certainly did not appreciate it when a ski run was built a quarter of a century ago on one slope.

So imagine, tribal leaders ask, what the spirits will think - or worse, do - when treated wastewater is piped up from Flagstaff and sprayed on the mountain so the resort, the Arizona Snowbowl, can make more snow to ski on? A lawyer for one of the tribes likened it to "pouring dirty water on the Vatican."

In a trial that began this month, 13 Indian tribes who regard the peaks as virtual living deities of the highest order argued that the plan would interfere with their religious practices, including the gathering of mountain water and herbs they say the artificial snow would taint....

***

The case pits economic interests against traditional practices, and culture versus science, the kind of clashes that are becoming increasingly common in the West as population booms and development pressures butt against Indian desires to reassert ancient practices.

Operators of the Arizona Snowbowl, one of the few ski resorts in the state, said it could go out of business without making snow because winter precipitation is so erratic in the high desert here. The resort, which has proposed the snowmaking under a plan to expand the ski runs, and the Forest Service, which approved the plan, both say the water would be cleaned to the highest degree, A-plus in the industry vernacular, though falling short of potable....


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/23/national/23peaks.html?oref=login

[G_j]

1. desecrating the SF Peaks

is sort of the equivalent to turning St. Pat's Cathedral into a Disney ride. But of course these people aren't Christian, so...

[zanne]

16. "these people aren't Christian, so... Exactly!

When this administration and its followers say "freedom of religion", they mean "freedom of MY religion". Fundamentalist conseratives want the teaching of "Intelligent Design" in public schools, but I don't think they'd be willing to teach their kids about the spiritual aspects of mountains. That's what bothers so many of us and why we criticize fundamentalist Christians. If you're not a fundamentalist who wants to force your views on us and on our kids in school, that's great. But if you're the other kind, we have every right to criticize. We're defending ourselves and our loved ones.

[ret5hd]

2. "...could go out of business without making snow because winter ...

precipitation is so erratic in the high desert here."

MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE BUILT A GODDAMNED SKI RESORT THERE. YOU DUMBASS!!!

(caps lock now off)

[DeepModem Mom]

3. Good point, ret. nt

[Bridget Burke]

17. Why don't we built a ski resort in Houston?

First, we'll have to build a mountain. Then we'll have to enclose it in a dome*--with the world's biggest air conditioner. THEN we could make snow. Just process the runoff from some of our petrochemical plants! It would be "almost" potable. Freeze & apply!

Ought to make some folks in Colorado happy! "If Texans had been meant to ski, God would have given them mountains."

--------------------------------

* Perhaps I ought to sell the idea to the folks who own the Astrodome?

[Toots]

4. when treated wastewater

Water treatment plants produce a drinkable product. It is not dirty water being poured on anything. Also once it is turned to snow it has been naturally distilled. I think this is a big hub ub about nothing....

[G_j]

5. well the peaks are not a central part of your religion

are they? I would guess that the idea that there are 'spirits' in the mountains and waters is a big hub ub about nothing to you.
But nobody is asking someone to believe in their religion, just respect it.

[Toots]

6. Have no problem with that at all just be truthful

Don't LIE in your reasons to oppose the ski resort. Say it is Sacred ground and leave it at that. Once you start spreading LIES to build your case it goes against you.

[G_j]

8. btw

my post may have sounded condescending and I didn't mean it to. I should have said it is understandable if one did not share these beliefs.

Anyway, as for the actual state of the water afterwords, I don't know enough to comment.

About 20 years ago I was actively involved in attempts to protect Native American sacred sites. At that time it was very hard to get a recognition that 'geographically specific' sites should be protected under freedom of religion. I'm not sure how that works out these days, but it may be the water issue was the one the lawyers thought might have the most traction in court. Just a thought.

[ret5hd]

7. what part of "falling short of potable" leads you to believe...

this is a drinkable product?

and how does turning water to snow distill it?

[htuttle]

9. Is it just me....

...or does spraying non-potable wastewaster high up into the mountains (where everyone's drinking water ultimately comes from) seem like a particularly STUPID idea?

Here's a lesson humans learned, oh, about 30,000 years ago: Don't crap upstream from where you get your drinking water. Just saying....if you gotta crap in the stream, make sure you do it DOWN river.

:eyes:

ps. In case you aren't aware of it, the water even high up in the Rockies is full of dangerous micro-organisms (like Giardia) nowdays -- know why? Cows. Fucking cow shit...

[DeepModem Mom]

10. Makes sense, h -- thanks!

[daleo]

23. Superficially, that makes sense

But how else could you ski in the desert?:sarcasm:

[xchrom]

11. we can't even let them have a sacred mountain or two?

fer fuck's sake -- do we have to drag around like barbarians ALL the time?

why the fuck can't the native people have some sacred mountains where NOTHING goes on except the mountain is a mountain?

can't we be big enough to leave them something?

[dbackjon]

12. Having lived in Flagstaff, and Hiked the peaks for 12 years

I have mixed feelings on this. The Snowbowl has been a good (for a ski area) operater, with none of the lodges, condos, etc that plague many mountains. They have made many concessions for the Native Americans (who to be honest, would only be perfectly happy if no white man were allowed on the peak), but then they would resume their tradional fighting among themselves over it.

There are no permanent streams on the Peaks - the geology does not allow for it - all run off sinks into the ground, even that runoff that does run on the surface for awhile. The water table is thousands of feet down - so it is unlikely that any harm would come. And A- water is as clean, or cleaner that most sewage treatment plants release, and probably cleaner than if they piped it straight from say the Colorado River, etc.

[xchrom]

15. like white people don't fight among themselves?

and who cares if no white man is allowed to set foot there -- we don't have enough?

i mean -- at some point our greed becomes an absurdity.

[dbackjon]

18. Where did I say that they don't?

But some have this vision of Native Americans living in peace and harmony with themselves and nature - neither is accurate. The Navajos and the Hopis have been at loggerheads for decades over land (and both claim the San Francisco Peaks as sacred) - both claim areas around Big Mountain (on the Reservations) are sacred, and should belong solely to their tribe.

And for Arizonans, many whites and hispanics have a special place in their minds/hearts for the peaks - and fight to preserve them, and have won many fights to keep mining/logging at bay in them.

[Horse with no Name]

13. I wish we could just leave nature alone sometimes

The Navajo believe the San Francisco Peaks in northern Arizona have the power to heal both mind and body. The Havasupai believe the mounds, buttes and hills around the Peaks carry their prayers to the heights of the Peaks, and beyond to the Great Spirit. The Peaks are also sacred ground to the Hopi, Zuni, Hualapai, Yavapai and five Apache tribes.

Rising from the ponderosa forest floor, the spectacular San Francisco Peaks include multiple forest and alpine life zones, and are home to a variety of wildlife including the threatened Mexican spotted owl. From as far as 100 miles away, people can view Mt. Humphries within the Peaks, the highest point in the state.

[DeepModem Mom]

14. Beautiful -- thanks!

[AZBlue]

20. I agree. Why do humans feel the need to trample every last inch of earth?

We've got plenty of accessible ski areas in CO and CA - we don't need them in AZ at this expense. Plus, the place can't operate half the time anyway due to weather and lack of precipitation (even with man-made snow it's closed a lot). And, thanks to global warming it's only getting hotter. I know Arizona likes to think they have everything to offer their residents and tourists, but we're already without a coastline (no, man-made lakes don't count) so I'm sure we can do without skiing too.

[madmark]

19. Im from AZ and have snowboarded the mountain and have few facts

to share:
-The area where they would put the manufactured snow is already a ski resort, ie. the trees have been cut for trails and there are several lifts and there is a lodge and parking lots.
-The San Francisco peaks are not part of either the Navajo or Hopi reservations. The reservations are not even adjacent to the Peaks. The Peaks are part of the Coconino National Forest.

My sense of it is that if putting a ski resort on the mountain was a desecration it has already happened in spades. The manufactured snow is merely incidental to the operation the ski resort and of deminimus impact compared to the construction of the ski resort. I Also note that the Apache's own and operate a great ski resort on Sunrise Mountain on their reservation which is just a little east of the Peaks adjacent to their holy mountain, Mount Baldy. A key difference is the Apache's own the Sunrise ski resort, where the Navajo and Hopi do not own the ski resort at the Peaks.

[Nihil]

21. Thanks for the "user" view but ...

... none of that alters the fact that it is a really stupid idea to
create/maintain/extend a ski resort in a frigging desert ...

[dbackjon]

22. Please get informed.......

Arizona is not all desert. We have the largest ponderosa pine forest in the world. The San Francisco Peaks get 40" of precipitation a year, a desert gets less than 10.

Please, leave ignorance to freerepublic

[Nihil]

24. Try it yourself?

I didn't say it was all desert: I was just commenting on the stupidity
of certain developers.

To alleviate *your* ignorance, if you have insufficient natural
precipitation to maintain a particular leisure facility in that
area (whether ski slope or golf course) then it is a particularly
dumb idea to site it there. Adding to that initial ignorance by
spraying non-potable water across a natural resource (for the
financial benefit of the owners) is a *really* stupid thing to do.

Or perhaps you prefer the "logic" of the freerepublic site,
"Fuck the world, we're American and we can do anything!"?