SUV sales down 43% Primus up 90% (NYT)

[IChing]

In September, industrywide sales of large S.U.V.'s were down 43 percent from a year earlier, according to Ward's AutoInfoBank. That is particularly bad news for General Motors and the Ford Motor Company, which are dependent on truck-based S.U.V.'s.


Last month, G.M.'s overall sales fell 24.2 percent and Ford's declined 20.3 percent, compared with the same month a year earlier. For the moment, though, big S.U.V.'s are bearing the brunt of consumer discontent. While sales have been diminishing all year long, September was particularly ugly.

At Ford, sales of the Explorer, Expedition and Lincoln Navigator fell more than 50 percent compared with the same month a year earlier. The company also built its last Excursion in the month, ending production of its largest S.U.V.
At G.M., sales of the Chevrolet Suburban and Tahoe fell more than 50 percent, while the GMC Yukon was down 46 percent and the Cadillac Escalade fell nearly 23 percent, with the supersize Escalade ESV falling 40 percent. Sales of the Hummer H2, made by G.M., fell 32 percent.>>>>snip

Consumers are also snapping up as many hybrid electric vehicles as the industry produces, with sales of the Toyota Prius up 90 percent and the hybrid version of the Ford Escape having a record sales month.>>>snip

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/04/automobiles/04auto.html?ex=1286078400&en=904d72555f7a6b5a&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Really not a surprise but wait for GM and Fords economic implications to impact
the economy.

[Larkspur]

1. Didn't the GM CEO recently be GM's future in SUV's?

If he did, he should get the George W. Bush losership award.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

3. not only SUVs but getting out of small efficient cars and research

They cancelled really promising programs 2,3 and 5 yrs ago.

[aquart]

12. For which he milks how much of the company's profits?

[midnight armadillo]

30. Yes they just unveiled new models

Lutz & Wagoner claim that GM's low SUV sales were because the models were old & needed refreshing...maybe not, eh? It seems obvious to everyone else.

Go to thetruthaboutcars.com and read the 'GM deathwatch' articles.

[Bigmack]

84. They did....

... but the taxpayers will bail GM out.

Shit... I'm going to pay for the screwups of some GM execs who'll make millions.

[LifeDuringWartime]

2. Jerry was a race car driver....

;)

[hatrack]

4. GM and Ford are sailing the sea of cheese, apparently

;-)

[Julius Civitatus]

35. Because they made cars that run on PORK SODA

:rofl:

[Gregorian]

6. Haha. Same here.

Don't say anything!

[jpak]

8. LOL!!!!

:)

[AllegroRondo]

16. Tommy the Cat is my name....

and I say unto thee
;)

[Julius Civitatus]

34. "say baby do you wanna lay down with me...

... say baby do you wanna lay down by mah side,

Say baby, say babeeeeeeeee!!!!"

Gosh darn! This brings me back!

:headbang:

[cedahlia]

64. Well, my name is mud

I'm the most boring sons-a-bitch you've ever seen

:silly:

Hehehe...;-)

[mikeytherat]

18. Perhaps GM should ask for help from Electric Uncle Sam

mikey_the_rat

[DS1]

19. Well played!

PRIMUS SUCKS!

[Roland99]

26. Kudos to you!

[snooper2]

32. He drove so god damn fast...

come on, continue the song here..

[PittPoliSci]

38. he never did win no checkered flag but he never did come in last

[Julius Civitatus]

33. My name is Mud...

;-)

[PittPoliSci]

37. i'm glad i'm not the only one who thought of that

:hi:

[slutticus]

68. ....

:rofl:

:toast:

[HughBeaumont]

73. Too many Pu-pu-pu-pu-pu-pu-puppies

Seen them sumbitches 8 times live.

[Lilith Velkor]

98. ...with guns in their hands/in foreign lands

5 times here. What a happifying typo in the headline!

[Julius Civitatus]

91. "Wynona had a big brown beaver...

...and she stroke it all the time!"

Who could forget such lovely tunes.

:headbang:

[Gregorian]

5. It's a step.

What this shows is that the people will do what needs doing. The real shame is that it takes a crisis. A real leader would have done this without a crisis.
THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE 30 YEARS AGO!

We're only half way there. And remember, even though the energy used for producing a vehicle is amortized over it's life, it's still a big shame that this society feels the need for every individual to have a separate vehicle. Again, we need massive funding for transit systems. The superficial image of independence that individual transportation provides is really a dependence upon resources. But that's another story. And we are just starting to journey away from the gasoline leash.

Rotate your politician.

[fjc]

7. No sympathy whatever for SUV owners.

And nothing but contempt for the companies the build and sell them. This culture has known since at least 1973 that fuel prices had no place to go but up, not to mention the politics of keeping them artificially low. Both the car companies that build them and the people who buy suffer from a kind of moral myopia brought on by willfull neglect of the actual world in which we all live.

[TheFarseer]

13. I recently filled up next to a guy with an SUV

we were bitching about gas prices of course and I asked him, if you knew gas was going to be this expensive would you have bought a smaller car? The guy replied, well, I bought this last month. So I say, Hmmmm, guess not. I damn sure don't feel sorry for this guy!

[indie_voter]

17. My next door neighbors bought one last week. No sympathy here! nt

[cliss]

29. You know what's really amazing about this guy?

I'm assuming here he bought this SUV on payments.

If he were to try to sell the thing today, guess what he would find out? He's probably upside-down on the damn thing. Meaning, he owes more on it than it's worth.

Heh heh he he (evil snicker)

[grace0418]

41. AMEN TO THAT! Planet-mobiles and the people who buy them really

piss me off. Put the research into alterate fuel sources and hybrids and quit fucking worrying about those fucking idiotic planet-killers.

[WhiteTara]

9. deja vu all over again. This is the 60's redux

Ralph helped keep stay the course with the condemnation of the Corvair and Pinto, but very rapidly Japan took over the US market. These guys never learn a thing.

[dweller]

10. noticing an uptick in sales

from individuals on Craigslist and other local buy/sell boards.
Buy My SUV, please!


i have to laugh ...

dp

[underpants]

11. The market speaketh

we never really asked for SUVs anyway.

[MarkTwain]

14. Super. It's a Great Time to buy...

.... one now! Been looking at the Forester; back to shopping this weekend.

[Hardrada]

15. Buy one but cover it over

with peace signs!

[IChing]

20. I love my forester but only have a DU sign on it.

I changed tires to a Michelin passenger tire with nitrogen gas and already have improved my
gas mileage. (1999) it's resale value is around 11k- $12k now in my area, I bought it new at $17k in 99.

[mwooldri]

28. What do people do who need to cart around a load of kids?

Minivan owners are hurting too. I'm one of them; my wife drives it, I pay the payments ;) When I got it we could fill it up for $20-25. Now it's $70-$80 a fill up. It was pushing $50 before the hurricane. I have a Focus that I drive to/from work, so that's not too bad... but we know that if we're travelling a distance and we have more than 4 passengers we take the van, 4 or less and we take the car. However, it is still punishing on those short trips around town.

What we need are more diesel vehicles. Ford can easily get a diesel Focus on the market that does 40+ mpg (they sell one in Europe). GM could do a deal with Peugeot and put their engines into their vehicles (IMO Peugeot make darn good diesel engines). Daimler-Chrysler do a Jeep Liberty with a diesel (and in Europe there's a Wrangler with a diesel too). Also biodiesel ought to be invested in too.

Mark.

[Hardrada]

62. I used to have a diesel Mercedes 180D.

Back when diesel fuel was something like 18 cents a gallon. That was like driving for free in comparison with today. But of course that was also when I was a grad school student and didn't actually have money so it sort of balances out!

[sandnsea]

76. diesel is higher than gas

Not sure why you think more diesel is a solution. And, btw, I get 40 mpg in my gas car. Cars were getting 40 mpg, and more, back in the 80's. I don't know what the gas racket is really all about, but it is definitely a racket.

[0007]

107. What kind of a car do you drive?

[NVMojo]

21. and my stupid town was the host of a Hummer convention last week ...

ELKO - Moab, Utah, has the Jeep.

Sturgis, S.D., has the Harley-Davidson.

Now Elko has the Hummer.

This year's Hummer Round-Up, which began Tuesday, is the brainchild of famed off-road racer Rod Hall, who has won the Baja 1,000 an impressive 17 times. Hall got the idea for the gathering when he visited Elko last year on a Summer Adventure Tour.

"I was here on a mission," Hall said.



more...

http://www.elkodaily.com/articles/2005/09/28/news/local_news/news1.txt

[NVMojo]

22. oops, dupe

[Up2Late]

23. Primus up 90%??? Wow, I thought that band had broken up!?!

Not really following the LBN Rules here: 1)Not the actual Headline, 2) Editing the article without any notation, 3) Removed "By Line"...

:wtf: Were the Mods asleep on this one? :shrug:

[LifeDuringWartime]

44. they definitely have not broken up!

they put out an ep/dvd last year that was very good, and they are playing the Vegoose festival in Vegas over Halloween weekend.

[Up2Late]

72. That's cool. My local radio stations became so repetitive and...

...over loaded with crap, that I stopped listening to Music Radio.

How their new stuff?

[yellowcanine]

24. I am confused. Primus is a Canadian telecomunications company.

What does that have to do with SUVs?

[IChing]

25. Yeah sorry about the MS, it was too late to edited after I

posted and had to leave deal with my construction at my condo for a bit.

Toyota Prius, really I know OK?

[muriel_volestrangler]

71. No, I'm sure you can use one of these for transportation

http://www.base-camp.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/pictures/Primus%2045.jpg

A meths-powered UFO, perhaps?

[IChing]

74. no, your momma did it to conceive your

insults to me

That is the only way she got hot by
doing herself and conking her self
and making yourself be free

what the hell was that?
I love your train of thought
which I followed, in your threads ( with no contact)

but you slammed me
and made no relevance
except your attack

[Nihil]

78. Cool it IChing :-)

In the UK, a Primus is a camping stove.

The picture that Muriel tried to post would have showed that (if it
was visible ...) but see if this one works instead:

[muriel_volestrangler]

80. Thank you, Nihil

Did my picture not show up, then? I used the 'nyud.net:8090' extension which caches a picture at various sites round the world so the website with the original picture doesn't get an avalanche of hits from DU - since it looks OK for me that way, I assumed other people could see it too. Anyway, you did get exactly the same picture of a Primus stove.

It's actually Swedish, and since 50 million have been made, I thought it might be well known across the world.

[Nihil]

81. No problem!

The image didn't show up for me (even if the location was cut & pasted
into a new browser session) so I just stripped off the nyupd.net suffix.

Without the image, your post lacked a bit of context! :-)

I'm browsing from within a company firewall at the moment so it might be
getting filtered out as a "non-standard port" - maybe for other people
as well?

[muriel_volestrangler]

82. Yes, I guess that could be it

A pity, since I think it's a good idea (I've often seen images put here on DU that come up with a "usage limit exceeded" message). I suppose the different port is used so that the computers used to host the images (or other pages) can function as a normal web server at the same time, and just do the distributed serving as an 'extra' service.

[jayctravis]

95. They're also the band that did the South Park theme.

[jackster]

27. and just this week we read that the Big 3

are STILL betting on SUV's. Not the megahogs that practically require property taxes, but smaller ones that are even designed to look smaller than they really are.

STILL, DON'T THEY GET IT? Does anyone in business in this country think past the next dollar bill?

[WinkyDink]

31. I just bought a 2006 Toyota Corolla.

I needed a car fast, and the Prius waiting list is 6 months (Lehigh Valley, PA.).

[NVMojo]

75. we had to do the same thing last summer. a friend bought the last one

on the lot and the next one could not be delivered for at least 6 months. We thought it was a neocon plot as we live in repug land (Elko, NV) so we bought a Toyota Celica instead and I love it! I am getting almost 38 miles to the gallon in town while the Jeep Cherokee we traded in got about 13 mpg...

[Winston702]

36. Prius doen't save much money

Using 100k miles as a benchmark:

Hybrid = 50 mi/gal
Standard = 30 mi/gal

Hybrid = 2000 gal fuel
Standard = 3333 gal fuel

@ $3.00/gal

Hybrid = $6000/100k miles
Standard = $10,000/100k miles

Fuel Savings = $4000

Hybrid "Premium" Charge = $3000 i.e Hybrid car is $3000 more than an equivelant Standard automobile.

Realized Savings per 100,000 miles = $1000

@ 25k miles driven per year = $250/year or $20.83/month or 1.7 gallons gas/week.

[lakeguy]

39. 100k miles? if your car only lasts that long i feel bad for you...

also, i doubt the "average" auto gets 30mpg. what is the ave mpg in the US anyway...

[Winston702]

40. If you can do math

than just extrapolate it to 200k miles if you feel the need.

I do realike that most cars exceed 100k but has any Prius gone over 100k??? Does Prius maintenace follow the same linear model of a standard car?

[northzax]

47. and you are neglecting the battery change at 60-70,000 miles

about 5 grand right now.

still, there are more important things than money.

[lakeguy]

50. warranty through 100k...or longer

Hybrid-Related Component Coverage: Hybrid-related components, including the HV battery, battery control module, hybrid control module and inverter with converter, are covered for 8 years/100,000 miles. The HV battery may have longer coverage under emissions warranty. Refer to applicable Owner’s Warranty Information booklet for details.

http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2005/prius/faq.html

[Winston702]

54. Double check warranty

before you mod it to get 300mpg

[lakeguy]

49. yes, the math is easy...

if you don't want to save money, then buy some other car.

but, assuming gas will stay fixed at $3/gallon is just a tad bit unrealistic...wouldn't you say? it will go down short term, but it is likely that it will go up even higher in the next few years.

my car currently gets about 30mpg over the course of a year, but i will switch. i will also be upgrading the battery system to realize higher mpg.

[Winston702]

51. $3.00 gas

That is what the price is in my local atm. This is what I would base any justification on. My budgeting toolkit did not come with a crystal ball.

[lakeguy]

55. apparently it didn't come with common sense either...

[Winston702]

56. so...

What will be the price of a gallon of gas in:

3 months
6 months
1 year
2 years

Give me some numbers, please

[lakeguy]

58. figure it out on your own, math guy...

supply is level or goes down and demand goes up. it's not my job to educate you. get off it and buy your non-hybrid car already. leave the hybrids for crystal ball carrying, money savers like me!

[Winston702]

60. Per your request - $5 gas - Battery change included

Using 100k miles as a benchmark:

Hybrid = 50 mi/gal
Standard = 30 mi/gal

Hybrid = 2000 gal fuel
Standard = 3333 gal fuel

@ $5.00/gal

Hybrid = $10000/100k miles
Standard = $16665/100k miles

Fuel Savings = $6665/

60k Battery Change = $5000
Hybrid "Premium" Charge = $3000 i.e Hybrid car is $3000 more than an equivelant Standard automobile.

Realized Savings per 100,000 miles = -$1335

[NickB79]

65. Has anyone even heard of a Prius needing a battery change yet?

They're warrantied for 100,000 miles, not 60,000. The Prius has been out for several years now, so it is possible there are a few Prius owners out there with 100,000 miles on their cars by now, if they drive a LOT.

Has anyone heard of a driver actually wearing out one of these batteries? From what I've read, it's more realistic to expect them to last at least 150,000 miles. Battery prices have been declining annually by quite a substantial amount; within 5 yrs I seriously doubt it will cost $5000 to replace the battery. Besides, you don't replace the whole battery at once. The Prius uses dozens of smaller battery packets that can be changed independently. As packets burn out, they can be replaced with new ones with better energy efficiency.

And as others have pointed out, 50 mpg is the combined average for the Prius, while 30 mpg is the best most conventional vehicles can hope to achieve on freeway driving. I drive a Scion xA, a fuel-efficient compact car, and while it will do 45 mpg under perfect conditions (no AC, 55 mph, cruise control on), I still only average 33 mpg combined city/highway. 20-25 mpg combined for the average American vehicle would be far more realistic, considering all the SUV's on the road today.

Recomputed using 24 mpg instead of 30 mpg at $5/gal, and realizing you won't need a $5000 battery change at 60,000 miles, you save over $10,000 on fuel. If your battery died at 60,000 miles, it would be covered under warranty and Toyota would pay to replace it, not you. Even with your $3000 "premium" charge, you still save $7000. At 125,000-150,000 miles, you'll probably pay $3000 for a battery replacement and upgrade, not $5000. You still save $4000 over ~10 yrs of driving.

[LostinVA]

106. A coworker has a Prius with 120k

Several years old. NO battery change. NO problems.

And, Winston is forgetting most of that premium charge is
tax-deductible (while my biodiesel TDI isn't!!!!!).

[lakeguy]

66. okay, let's play make believe math

or maybe not, if your battery goes at 60k, it's free.

thus, as per your calcs at $3 a gallon, assuming the average vehicle for comparison gets 30 mpg, and ignoring any and all costs to the environment, you still save money. seems like you just won't look at the simple facts and even make some up along the way. hmmmm, who does that sound like?

and now you're taking request that i didn't even make yet? you sure you don't have a crystal ball?

[BrightKnight]

79. 100,000 Miles Warranty for Hybrid-Related Components

Toyota Prius Warranty - item# 17

http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2005/prius/faq.html

[TX-RAT]

108. My guess?

Give it a year and it will be below 2.00 dollars again.

[trogdor]

83. Lots of people use 100K as a benchmark.

It's the point where a car becomes old enough for its owner to start looking for a new one , while the one s/he has still has enough resale/trade-in value to keep the new car note from getting too large. This point used to be something like 60,000 miles back in the days before the Japanese invasion, and I suspect it still sits around 80,000 for Big Three branded cars.

[JVS]

92. Since the Prius is fairly new technology, it is not unreasonable to...

expect that it might only last 100,000 miles, or that some of the hybrid equipment might either require expensive repairs or stop delivering the good mileage after 100,000.

[IChing]

43. So how do you include into your equation emissions into the atmosphere?

Also here in California people are modifying their Prius so they are able to get
up to 300mpg, my neighbor has gotten up to 70mpg not modified.

[Winston702]

52. emissions not included*

I did not include any emissions cost in my calculation as there in no charge for emissioms atm.

[IChing]

57. Well there goes you global warming theory

and Kyoto treaty payments,
it should be included into your understanding of

COSTS.........

Oh, that right, we're American and we don't have to think
or pay for it just our children's children.

[Winston702]

59. Give me a number

What is the emissions cost of 1 gallon, 87 octane, unleaded fuel. If have have a cost number I can modify my calculations.

[IChing]

63. I am not your science teacher , ethics teacher or your research monkey

but do your equations on around 120mpg. and

A gallon of gasoline weighs 6.2 pounds, consisting mostly of carbon, plus a small amount of hydrogen and a few impurities. Through combustion each carbon atom combines with two atoms of heavier oxygen atoms, resulting in 19.8 pounds of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

[BewilderedCitizen]

67. Hybrid Savings

I don't want to butt in to this heated discussion of whether or not hybrids make fiscal sense, but there are several good articles in this month's edition of Mother Earth News if anyone cares to read more about it.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/alternative-transportation

... and here's one specifically addressing the monetary savings at the pump.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Alternative_Energy/2005_October_and_November/Pay-Less-at-the-Gas-Pump-Hybrid-Revolution

[lakeguy]

69. that second articles lays out the "math" quite well i'd say. thanks! nt

[Winston702]

70. Savings based on 21 mpg

These savings are based on the average mpg for all cars. If you buy a Scion at 30 mpg, the savings are reduced.

[grace0418]

45. Aside from the benefits to our environment, which are a little harder

to quantify, if all the automakers put the kind of research and marketing into hybrid cars that they put into planet-mobiles for the last 15 years, the costs of hybrids would go WAAAAAAAAY down. There would be no premium charge for a hybrid because that would be the standard. Just like every technology that's come out on the market, as it becomes the standard the price drops.

And you're calculating at $3.00/gal. You're really that confident that it won't be even more expensive in the near future?

[natrat]

46. in ca you can use hov lane driving single

[apnu]

86. so what's the point of a HOV lane then if only one person is in the car?

Or did I misunderstand you?

[natrat]

93. promotes higher mpg cars

motorcycles allowed also

[apnu]

85. I bought an Escape Hybrid in June of this year and...

... I bought it for a lot of reasons besides savings at the pump. (which I've already seen BTW)

I bought a Hybrid SUV because:

1) I wanted a bigger car because I plan on having a family soon and my little compact wasn't going to work out for my transportation needs. Not to mention that I'm a big guy, 6'2" and compact cars are uncomfortable for me.

2) I wanted to promote Hybrid technology. I want to see some changes in the auto industry which has, lets face it, been static for some 80 or so years.

3) I wanted help reduce our use of oil, since electric cars aren't a reality right now, I went hybrid. And by reduction of oil, I also want to reduce our dependence on foreign oil and our support of horrifying governments that produce oil.

4) I needed a new car. Mine was 5 years old, paid off, but beat to hell from driving and parking in a major city for its whole life. Along with a new car, I'm also renting a garage to keep my Escape in good condition.

So, as a result of all of that, I bought a better car that costs more money, but has more room for me and my family, saves me money at the pump (which also means I'm making less trips to the gas station), promotes new technology and jobs in America, and makes a political statement pointed directly at Bush.

I've thought of making a bumper sticker saying "I bought a hybrid because I dislike Bush"

So my point is, there may not be a perfect cost savings at the pump (after you count the extra costs of hybrid technology) but many car buying decisions happen above gas price considerations. What I think this article is telling us, beyond what's actually printed in it, is that Americans are starting to consider gas costs as a more important factor than coolness in their cars. (Hummer vs Prius)

[kostya]

88. Hmmm, you just contradicted your own argument

1) the Prius in your calculations DID save $1,000. Are you saying you took on increased risk because of it that would disincentivise you to grab that $1,000?

2) The feds and many states offer tax credits/deductions for buying hybrids. I purchased a 2002 and received over $2,000 back tax-wise. Next year the "refund" from the Feds increases so that I could get about $4,600 back on a 2006 model.

3) Your assumption of gas staying at $3/gal for several years is overly optmistic, IMHO.

4) People usually make a false comparison between a Prius and a "comparable" standard non-hybrid model, without taking into account:
a) the Prius typically comes with std options that the other model has as expensive options
b) there are many practical technological benefits of the Prius, too numerous to mention (e.g. brake wear significantly reduced) over a non-hybrid model
c) the resale value of hybrids is VERY high (I can sell our 2002 for about $1,000 less than we paid net 3.5 years later)
d) there is a definite, though admittedly highly subjective, "coolness" factor about driving high technology that even luxury cars don't have. :) :) :)

QED.

[Winston702]

90. My Point

The point is a Prius will not save you as much money as you may believe if you only look at the increased MPG. I currently do not have a car payment so, in my case, to finance a Prius and pay extra insurance would cost me substantially more than anything I could save.

So if the reasons out;ined above are of enough weight to justify your purchase of a Prius, to qoute Snoop Dog, "If the ride is fly, you must buy"

[kostya]

94. Uh, OK. Guess you actually have a different reason for dissing the

Prius. Something to do with your economic situation it sounds like. Sorry.

[LostinVA]

105. The average auto so doesn't get 30 mpg

Not if it was built in the last 15 years. My "old" Hyundai was listed as 27/21, and didn't come close to that. My new TDI was listed as 43/33, and gets at least 45 mpg (I drive about 2% in the city, so have no idea what the city ,pg is).

And, let's make believe what you wrote is true: so what???? A hybrid uses less gas, a TDI with biodiesel, even just B20, uses less gas. THAT'S the point.

[triguy46]

42. Bought a civic on 9-23.

Put gas in last night. After 788 miles, averaging 33 mpg. We live 8 miles from town so that is kind of a blended measure. I traded an SUV, and boy am I glad to be on the front of that wave, sooner or later the dealers will have to stop taking them on trade.

[CountAllVotes]

97. I had a Civic

I traded it in for an Accord a few years ago. The Civic is a great car! I hope you enjoy it! :D

:kick:

[grace0418]

48. Subaru needs to work on a hybrid Outback or Forester.

I really, really, really hate montrous, gas-guzzling SUVs. But I've understood people's need for space (for kids, or in my case, art supplies), safety, and the ability to drive on snowy or otherwise non-perfect roads. That's why I have always liked Subaru Outbacks and Foresters.

We recently purchased a used Outback and we love it. The gas mileage isn't ideal but it's better than an SUV. I also offset that a bit by carpooling with two other people to work. It can get around during horrible midwestern winters, it fits TONS of groceries and supplies, and it will be easy to put a child seat into once that becomes a reality. Some people I know with SUVs end up having back strain from hoisting a child seat up into the back seat. Also, it's simply not as much of a road hazard as some of those monstrosities you see people driving. It doesn't take up two spaces in a parking lot, you can see around it in traffic, and I don't feel like I would flatten three other vehicles if I got into a minor traffic accident. Yet at the same time I feel like I and my passengers would be relatively protected in an accident. On a recent vacation in the mountains, we rented a Forester and felt the same way about that vehicle.

In fact, I would say that my ONLY complaint about our Outback is it's gas mileage.

So if Subaru came up with a HYBRID Outback or Forester, I would be ALL OVER that. I really, really wish they'd step up to the plate.

[geniph]

53. Subaru IS working on a hybrid

http://www.subaru.com/common/news/article_details.jsp?file=latest_news_index.xml&articleId=20050907&attrNavItemId=NEWS_LATEST_NEWS

My 2002 Forester gets quite reasonable gas mileage, has always been plenty large enough for my needs, and is very nimble and fun to drive. I am VERY fond of my Subie.

[grace0418]

61. That's GOOD news! Although if they're testing it in Japan in 2007

who KNOWS how long it will be before hybrid Subarus are available in the U.S. They need to move faster!

But I agree, I love my Subie. Yes, I noticed the Forester was extremely nimble and fun to drive when we were driving around Lake Tahoe. It was the perfect vehicle for those roads!

[survivor999]

77. I love the Toyota Prius...

[cmutt]

87. GM makes fuel-friendly cars, too!

Just like Toyota makes their share of fuel-guzzler's. I guess I'm just too practical. I don't think any company is just going to walk away from that much business/profit--so I don't fault GM for introducing a replacement for their full-size SUV's. BTW, GM's new full-size SUV's have an average fuel economy of 20+mpg. That's nothing when compared to a compact, but in comparison to a Toyota Sequoia's avg. of 16mpg, it's away better. GM's hybrid version of these shows up next year.

Take a look at GM's Aveo, Cobalt, or Malibu. They get tremendous gas mileage. Check out the owner's forums @ Edmund's on the Malibu & Cobalt: they routinely brag about fuel economy between 35-40mpg.

I'm not ready to throw a US manufacturer (& their labor base that goes with it) under the bus because part of their offerings cater to an ignorant public.

Lastly, GM has hundreds of hybrid busses on the road in cities like Seattle, Houston, Minneapolis, etc. They conserve more fuel than all of the Prius's sold -- combined. GM's consumer-car & truck hybrids are coming out later than the rest. They'll start being available late next year.

[Tight_rope]

89. After 2months of research...I've decide I'm going Hybrid....

I live in Houston, TX. I only work 15 minutes from home...But I hate to pump gas. It's so inconveint.

[gulfcoastliberal]

96. Irony: "Foreign" cars made in USA by Americans, "Domestic" cars made in

Mexico or Canada as GM/Ford/Chrysler lay off Americans and hire Mexicans and Canadians to build the cars. :wtf:

[Guaranteed]

99. This, more than ANYTHING, will help drive down gas prices. nt

[happydreams]

100. Now that's a positive thing to come from the gas problem

[kittenpants]

101. Could the title please be edited?

Sorry, it's just been bothering me for days - Prius, not Primus. Thanks

[JVS]

102. But Primus rocks! And if you aren't in your SUV, you need to rock harder!

[norml]

103. Primus

http://www.primusville.com/

[AnnieBW]

104. Trouble keeping them on the lot

My hubby and I looked at a Camry today. Frankly, my fat ass won't fit into a Prius, so I want to get something a little wider. We walked past a Prius, and I asked the salesmen if they were selling them like hotcakes. He said that they had trouble keeping up with the demand. But, they did have a lot of hybrid Highlanders around. I don't care if it IS a hybrid, it's still an SUV. (Although the temptation to get one and get a vanity plate with ONLY 1 on it is pretty great...)