France Seeks to Harness Energy at Heart of Sun

[chlamor]

France seeks to harness energy at heart of sun
By John Lichfield in Paris

07 May 2005

France and the European Union appear to have won a long diplomatic battle to host a €10bn (£6.7bn) international experiment to master a clean and limitless new form of nuclear energy.

Agreement is expected before the summer that the Iter project, an attempt to recreate and harness the energy at the heart of the sun, should be built at Cadarache, near Aix-en-Provence, in southern France.

The project, to be funded by the US, the EU, Russia, China, Japan and South Korea, is seen as a potentially enormous contribution to the long-term energy problems of mankind. In the short term, it has fallen victim to mankind's capacity for pettiness.

Final agreement has been held up by a battle between the French and Japanese over which country will host the main experimental site and test reactor.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=636306

[blogbear]

1. Sounds like a great idea and I hope it moves foward and overcomes

'pettiness'..

[KlatooBNikto]

2. So, when are they going to land Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld on the sun to

announce this great program?

[FloridaPat]

3. That's about $14 in US dollars or 14 weeks in Iraq. And we spent

(so far) $300 billion to get our hands on Iraqi oil.

[rfkrfk]

4. we might be closer than you think, to {hot} fusion.

With existing reactors, scientists have
fusion, but at, I think, about 10 percent
of break even. That fact was proved by the
production of neutrons.
The next step is, just bigger, which will improve
the ratio of the 'core volume' to 'surface area'.
The ITER is expected to demonstrate theoretical breakeven.
Scientists are reasonably confident that they understand
problems at the next level.

[Frederik]

5. Cool

good to hear some good news once in a while.

[pie]

8. Please briefly explain:

Why is it called "hot" fusion?
What is "theoretical breakeven"?

[megatherium]

10. It's called hot fusion to distinguish it from cold fusion,

the unproven claims of Pons and Fleischmann in the late 1980s that fusion can happen at room temperature.

It takes a lot of energy to magnetically confine and heat the 100-million-degree plasma (electrified gas) in which the fusion reaction will occur. The higher the temperature and pressure, the more fusion will happen. With a strong enough reaction, more energy is produced than is required to initiate and sustain the reaction. In theory, it should be possible to create a reactor that will have a continuous fusion reaction that puts out much more energy than is spent to sustain it. Break-even is when the energy out equals the energy in. This could be an ideal energy source: relatively clean and inexhaustible. Now the ITER is supposed to demonstrate energy output beyond break-even, and continuous reactions lasting hundreds of seconds (indefinitely, for all practical purposes).

Word in the physics community is that ITER will be successful; the plasma physicists are getting confident that their computer models are reliable, and their computer models say ITER will work. Figure about 10 years from now. Then a successor to ITER will be built, which if memory serves will be called DEMO. This will be an actual, working power station. Figure 30 years from now. By mid-century, if all goes well, fusion power will begin to take over our energy economy. Either that, or fusion power will prove to be more expensive than what might be its main competition: solar power. But either way, we will get our power from fusion (which is where the sun gets its power).

[daleo]

14. It has been "a breakthrough within thirty years" as long as I can remember

I will believe it when I see it.

[AngryAmish]

16. I wrote a paper in 7th grade about fusion in the near future

That was 22 years ago. I beleive it when I see it.

[KoKo]

17. True...this has been touted for years....lot's of hype all that time with

mucho money spent. Maybe other countries will be able to do what we can't anymore...find great new energy technology. All the scientists we 've trained all over the world might do better given that Bush is so anti-science and exploration into any new field except "defense/death" "Star Wars" kinds of research.

[megatherium]

22. Actually, they're promising 2050 now.

I just went to the Iter website (www.iter.org) and they outline the "fast-track" to fusion power. They figure mid century.

But as I was musing in my earlier post, there's every reason to believe solar photovoltaic and hydrogen will be feasible (not too expensive) well before then. There will be vast solar farms in the deserts, and solar panels on millions of roofs. Actually the latter is very close to happening now.

[daleo]

26. I like those latter ideas.

Although I imagine that the 'solution' to peak oil will will be multi-faceted. A large part of it will just be restructuring life to less wasteful of energy. Not just cars that get 100 mpg, but communities built up around the notion of far less traveling and far less consuming.

[karlrschneider]

27. I tried to persuade a friend of mine in ~1980, who was the CEO of a very

significant energy company to pursue some R&D into hydrogen production from photovoltaics in shallow saltwater bays for use as vehicle fuel.
(by electrolysis)...he expressed some interest but died about a year later and his company was essentially dispersed into its subsidiaries.
Another idea too far ahead of its time, I suppose.

[nannah]

6. the US is helping fund this?

"the project, to be funded by the US, the EU, Russia..." that is good news. this is the kind of news that should be shouted from the rooftops!

Now, blend this story with the fiasco of wasted lives, time, and money in Iraq (both times) and paint a picture of the enormous blunder of warring in the middle east for energy. Because that is the most critical juncture of the BFEE/Energy Industry crimes against the world.... that they chose to kill to wring the last profit out of their business instead of joining the world in developing resources for all to use and share.

IMAGINE...working together to harvest the earth's bounty for all to share. Isn't that what Jesus woud do????

[megatherium]

11. We were one of the original partners. Then we dropped out. Then

we joined back up again. Somebody has a clue thank God.

[KoKo]

18. I'll bet the Chimp has cut back the original funding, though.

Otherwise why would France be vying with Japan for the experimental site.

US has alot of places that would make better experimental sites...but it must be money and prestige that made the choice. :shrug:

[MGKrebs]

7. Hmm. A Reagan program. Must be weapons implications.

We started it: ..."began with an initiative at the 1985 Geneva Summit between the US and the USSR. President Reagan and General Secretary Gorbachev began a process..."

Then we got out: "In 1998, the Congress directed the DOE to conduct an orderly closeout of its ITER activities, which was done during FY1999."

Other countries continued "reduced in cost and in some detailed technical objectives but with the same overall programmatic objective."

Now we want back in (since China does too?): "Recently China also proposed joining the negotiations. In a speech January 30, 2003, at Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory, Secretary Abraham announced that the President has now decided the U.S. should join the ITER negotiations."

White House press release just says Abraham is to represent us in negotiations.
http://www.ofes.fusion.doe.gov/ITER/WHouseITERPress.pdf

http://www.ofes.fusion.doe.gov/iter.html

I'm glad other countries are taking the lead. Maybe they can keep Da Brat from using it to blow shit up.

[salib]

20. Laser confinement fusion is the one that is considered to have

serious weapons implications. That is much of the reason for the lack of funding for such methods for use in powerplants. It is conceivable that it would already be possible to more than break-even with this technique. However, all research is seriously classified, and almost all funding is for bomb simulation.

[Gregorian]

9. Outside of le beaux. How I learned to love the French.

Just as we were reaching results, our gov't cut funding. I know one of the managing engineers at Lawrence Livermore labs. And back in the 80's it was a matter of "millions", in order to conclude the project. It's all politics of oil. I think they realized that the oil companies would take a monstrous hit if energy were to be converted from a source other than oil.
We're stupid.

[salib]

12. "clean" is a relative word

This is exciting science and engineering. However, just as fission based power plants were supposed to produce energy that would be "too cheap to meter", one must use an eye of caution when people say "clean."

The ITER, which is not a final power plant by any means, will use a special isotope of hydrogen, which is tritium. It is radioactive and requires special handling. However, what is even more important is that by using tritium, instead of deuterium, or even simple hydrogen, the fusion that will occur in a reaction that has a much higher "cross-section" (physics term for a parameter that is directly related to the liklihood of a reaction, honestly a bit too ballistic-oriented really).

This is important because it is the deuterium + deuterium reactions that are described when all these folks are saying how "clean" fusion is. The output is mostly helium, and stable helium at that. However, through a little tritium in the mix and you get a LOT more fusion (larger cross-section for reactions). And the by-products of these easier reactions are VERY radioactive, toxic, and notoriously difficult to handle and displose of.

So, what is being done at ITER is a bit of a cheat, if one reasonably assumes that this will be a test of "theoretical breakeven." It is only breakeven using a fusion reaction that is very dirty. The whole aparatus will in fact be radioactive waste after they are done.

As I said, I think it is exciting science, challenging engineering, and heartening advancement. Just remember that there are many more steps to take even if the ITER lives up to its design.

[daleo]

15. Good post, I wondered about tritium.

I think having surplus tritium around would also have implications for bomb building, too. There is no free nuclear lunch, except maybe solar based energy.

[salib]

19. That is an interesting angle, as well.

However, my understanding is that access to tritium is the least difficult part of developing a thermo-nuclear bomb. First, there is the requirement of an atomic bomb, ...

[megatherium]

23. Iter will be deliberately designed to generate tritium.

Or at least to test designs that will produce tritium. The purpose of this will be for Iter to create its own fuel. That plus the incredibly vast amount of deteurium (in sea water) out there, would make this kind of fusion power limitless.

[dkofos]

13. Great

They will still be able to charge us for electricity.

:eyes: :eyes:

[jpak]

21. We already have the ability to generate electricity from (solar) fusion

using photovoltaic modules and wind turbines.

ChimpCo could spend $10 billion dollars - today - and generate solar fusion-derived electricity - today.

$10 billion would purchase ~3000 MW of photovoltaic modules at current wholesale prices....

...or ~9,000 MW of wind turbine capacity...

....and there would be no uncertainty whether it would "work or not".

[megatherium]

25. Unpleasant question: much coal or natural gas baseline capacity will $10

billion buy nowadays? I fear that's what Bush and company would prefer now. Or nuclear, which we've already established is an idea whose day has already come and gone. (By the way, my colleague in physics who was pro-nuclear has decided he isn't so enthusiastic for it anymore, especially after reading the Physics Today article about the rapid progress in PV: it may be cheaper than nuclear by decade's end.)

I'm not prepared to argue Iter is really worth the money, but I believe it is something we should do. It is an international project; the US is sharing the burden with the Europeans, Chinese and Japanese. The potential payoff is great. Perhaps it is telling that the Europeans and Japanese, who are both heavily involved in solar and wind development, are strongly behind fusion research.

Meanwhile, let's install some PV capacity. It looks like California will lead the way with the million rooftops for PV program.

[chlamor]

28. I'm waiting for

the headline that reads "Trinistan Decides to Use Less"

[Gloria]

24. Shoot, I was dreaming of buying into a French leaseback property

right in that area (I mean, reading info and dreaming, nothing concrete)....This sort of upsets that little fantasy.....

Hope they don't screw up all the ruins....