2 Evangelicals Want to Strip Court's Funds (DeLay involved)

[barbaraann]

1 hour, 11 minutes ago
Los Angeles Times
By Peter Wallsten Times Staff Writer

WASHINGTON — Evangelical Christian leaders, who have been working closely with senior Republican lawmakers to place conservative judges in the federal courts, have also been exploring ways to punish sitting jurists and even entire courts viewed as hostile to their cause.

An audio recording obtained by the Los Angeles Times features two of the nation's most influential evangelical leaders, at a private conference with supporters, laying out strategies to rein in judges, such as stripping funding from their courts in an effort to hinder their work.

The discussion took place during a Washington conference last month that included addresses by House Majority Leader Tom DeLay and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, who discussed efforts to bring a more conservative cast to the courts.
...
The leaders present at the March conference, including Perkins and James C. Dobson, founder of the influential group Focus on the Family, have been working with Frist to eliminate the filibuster for judicial nominations, a legislative tool that has allowed Senate Democrats to stall 10 of President Bush's nominations. Frist is scheduled to appear, via a taped statement, during a satellite broadcast to churches nationwide Sunday that the Family Research Council has organized to build support for the Bush nominees.
...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&e=15&u=/latimests/2evangelicalswanttostripcourtsfunds


At the very least, the two religious organizations involved need to lose their tax exemption, IMHO.

[etherealtruth]

1. This is not a profound thought but I've got to express it anyway...

... these groups are the greatest evil in our country today. I am in no way "anti-religious," I simply have no desire to live in a theocracy (even less desire to live in their perverse idea of a theocracy)

[CottonBear]

6. I agree: These groups are the greatest evil in our country today.

Question: were these theocratic thugs always around or did these groups evolve more recently?

I grew up in an upper middle class Presbyterian family in the south. There was no mention of politics, science, evolution etc. in church or Sunday school. My parents were conservative Republicans and medical professionals. There was never even any discussion or thought that religion and science were at odds with each other. There was no talk of "activists" judges.

[tinrobot]

25. They've been around since Reagan.

But we've always had a Democratic congress or president to stop them. The phrase back in the 80's was that the 'Moral Majority' is neither. I still remember those pious hypocrites like Swaggert and Baker getting nailed for fraud and having sex with trampy women.

These types are evil incarnate. They're the religious version of the neocons - corrupt, power hungry, money grubbing, and very dangerous.

[bcingu]

42. Evil: Agreed, from a similar background.

Solid middle class, Episcopalian in the North. Same deal. I attended the local Episcopal church here in the Dallas area until the Sunday when one of the parishoners stood up and declared that Pat Robertson and Dr. Dobson were able to 'cure' homos! My thought at the time was "When exactly did either man attend seminary and when were they ordained into the Episcopal Church?" Luckily, a more liberal parish is available to me and I am taking advantage of it.

To answer the question directly, the 'thugs' have been with us for longer than we care to acknowledge. It's just that they have been emboldened recently and have thrust into the mainstream.

[wryter2000]

44. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[JDPriestly]

167. Evangelists have always been

a part of the American scene. Billy Graham is one of the worst in our century -- and a fixture in the White House. I believe he is the one who "saved" W, and who set him on his path to the White House. What a phony -- actually, what phonies.

[chomskysright]

64. indeed: the Presbys criticized Frist today in NY Times....

stating essentially that the church had no role in entering into politics and vice versa. front page.

[chomskysright]

67. PRESBYS = good & ecumenical

[chomskysright]

94. THANK THE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH:

here is a good opportunity to peel off the fundies from the REAL Christians with a social agenda that Christ would have approved of, I believe.

April 22, 2005



Hello West Asheville Presbyterian church and other Presbyterians throughout the United States:



I've known some fine Presbyterians in my time. THANKS TO THE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH LEADERSHIP for this on the front page of today's New York Times:

Remember this: FRIST IS A DIVIDER though he be a Presbyterian.

Moreover, per your web page and as associated with your fine Social Issues: http://www.pcusa.org/101/101-social.htm

Social Issues
The General Assembly: Affirms.....its responsibility to speak on social and moral issues ....Reminds the churches that their duty is not only to encourage and train their members in daily obedience to God's will, but corporately to reveal God's grace in places of suffering and need, to resist the forces that tyrannize, and to support the forces that restore the dignity of all men as the children of God, for only so is the gospel most fully proclaimed;

thank you for your hard work, Presbyterian Churches of America. I hope, that since you are in Louisville, KY, where Frist's divisive meeting will take place, that you will have something to say about this matter come this Sunday, April 24th, 7 p.m.


Sincerely,




Item 1:

Religion at issue in judicial fight
by David D. Kirkpatrick and Sheryl Gay Stolberg

"....Among those scheduled to speak in the conference call is the Rev. Clifton Kirkpatrick, a top official of the Presbyterian Church U.s.A.

"One of the halmarks of our denominations is that we are an ecumenical church," Mr. Kirkpatrick said in an interview on thursday. He also said

Elected officials should not be portraying public policies as being for or against people of faith......"

Moreover, these are the bills that Dr. Frist has voted for in the past several months:



Item 2:
http://forum.truthout.org/blog/story/2005/3/18/11719/9579

drop Veteran's health care
Republicans Allen, Burns, DeWine, Ensign, *******Frist, Hatch, Hutchison, Kyl, Lott, Lugar, Santorum, Snowe, Talent and Thomas voted against $2.8 billion for veterans health care and $2.8 billion for deficit reduction. That’s a commercial.

voted against funding Medicaid
Republicans Allen, Burns, Ensign, ********Frist, Hatch, Hutchison, Kyl, Lott, Lugar, Santorum, Talent and Thomas Voted against restoring $14 billion to Medicaid and establishing a bipartisan Medicaid commission. That’s a commercial.

voted against Homeland security
Republicans Ensign, ***********Frist, Hatch, Kyl, Lott, Santorum and Thomas voted against $855 million for Homeland Security grants for first responder programs, port security grants and border patrol agents. That’s a commercial.

voted against restoring Community Development Block Grant Programs
Republicans Allen, Burns, Ensign, *********Frist, Hatch, Hutchison, Kyl, Lott, Lugar, Santorum, Snowe, Talent and Thomas (funny how the same names keep coming up) voted against restoring $1.9 billion in cuts to the Community Development Block Grant Program. That’s a commercial.

voted against Vocationa Education Act (which helps people get jobs who are disabled or have been unemployed)
Republicans Allen, Burns, DeWine, Ensign, **********Frist, Hatch, Hutchison, Kyl, Lott, Lugar, Santorum, Snowe, Talent and Thomas voted against $7.46 billion for the Perkins Vocational and Technical Education Act and deficit reduction. Commercial.

voted against education and deficit reduction
Republicans Allen, Burns, Ensign, **********Frist, Hatch, Hutchison, Kyl, Lott, Lugar, Santorum, Snowe, Talent and Thomas voted against $4.75 billion for education and $4.75 billion for deficit reduction. Commercial.

voted against increasing Pell Grant (allowing people to move through college)
Republicans Allen, Burns, Ensign, ***********Frist, Hatch, Hutchison, Kyl, Lott, Lugar, Santorum, Talent and Thomas voted against restoring $5.4 billion to education program cuts and increasing the maximum Pell Grant award to $4,500. Commercial.

voted against agricultural programs
Republicans put the bricks to farmers: Allen, Burns, Chafee, DeWine, Ensign, **********Frist, Hatch, Hutchison, Kyl, Lott, Lugar, Santorum, Snowe, Talent and Thomas voted against restoring $2.8 billion to agriculture programs. Midwest commercial.

voted against family planning
Republicans Allen, Burns, DeWine, Ensign, **********Frist, Hatch, Hutchison, Kyl, Lott, Lugar, Santorum, Talent and Thomas voted against a resolution supporting $1 billion for family planning programs, such as teen pregnancy prevention. Moral values hypocrisy commercial.

wants to allow prepackaged news to come your way
Republicans Allen, Burns, Chafee, DeWine, Ensign, ***********Frist, Hatch, Hutchison, Kyl, Lott, Lugar, Santorum, Snowe, Talent and Thomas voted against refusing to establish any appropriations bill that allows funds to be provided for "prepackaged news stories" that do not have a disclaimer stating "Paid for by the United States Government" running throughout the presentation. Commercial.

voted against special education programs
Republicans Allen, Burns, DeWine, Ensign, ************Frist, Hatch, Hutchison, Kyl, Lott, Lugar, Santorum, Snowe, Talent and Thomas voted against a reserve fund that would provide $71.3 billion for special education programs under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. Commercial.

[chomskysright]

95. for they're standing against their own member, FRIST

[JDPriestly]

168. Good post. Thanks.

[supernova]

107. I'm proud of my church on this!

:D Frist isn't speaking in the way of a good Presbyterian.

[Maraya1969]

154. RE: Question: were these theocratic thugs always around

or did these groups evolve more recently?"



It seems that they have evolved - In accord with Darwin's theory!

Hopefully their next step with be to the endangered species list and then..........extinction.

[formerrepuke]

11. Spot-on. I am more concerned about them than domestic terrorists...

..an occasional explosion is terrible, but long-term theocratic rule is worse, in my opinion.

[calimary]

80. They ARE domestic terrorists. And they foster more of the same.

Please also remember: the worst violence perpetrated by human on human is done in the name of religion. And in this country, WAY more often than not, they're from the so-called "right." You didn't see any left-wingers or "tree-huggers" initiating the Oklahoma City bombing, did you? The worst we Godless liberals ever seem to do is throw pies at knuckledraggers, and some paint on a fancy fur coat.

[Lerkfish]

52. hey, no problem. I'm christian but these nutjobs scare the hell outta me

I think is way beyond breaching the separation of church and state: this is collaboration between the most vile members of govt. and religion to overthrow the country.
I would not compare these rightwing religious nutjobs to normal christians anymore than I would compare Delay and Frist to responsible lawmakers.

[nodictators]

62. The Dominionists are coming to a town near you.

Dominionism pretends to be Christian, but it isn't.

Dominionism is pure EVIL. They will lie, cheat, steal and kill to gain political power. Read this:

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

The First Prince of the Theocratic States of America


It happened quietly, with barely a mention in the media. Only the Washington Post dutifully reported it.<1> And only Kevin Phillips saw its significance in his new book, American Dynasty.<2> On December 24, 2001, Pat Robertson resigned his position as President of the Christian Coalition.

--snip---

As Antonin Scalia, Associate Justice of the Supreme Court explained a few months later, the Bible teaches and Christians believe “… that government …derives its moral authority from God. Government is the ‘minister of God’ with powers to ‘revenge,’ to ‘execute wrath,’ including even wrath by the sword…”<3>

George W. Bush began to wield the sword of God’s revenge with relish from the beginning of his administration, but most of us missed the sword play. I have taken the liberty to paraphrase an illustration from Leo Strauss, the father of the neo-conservative movement, which gives us a clue of how the hiding is done:


"One ought not to say to those whom one wants to kill, ‘Give me your votes, because your votes will enable me to kill you and I want to kill you,’ but merely, ‘Give me your votes,’ for once you have the power of the votes in your hand, you can satisfy your desire."<4>
<much more>

[calimary]

76. Utterly correct. Why don't they relocate to Tehran? Or Vatican City?

They could have their theocracy all over the place, running from both hot and cold faucets, and belching out of every tail pipe.

I've been a Catholic since baptism - shortly after I was born, and I cannot tell you how frightening I find this to be. It's JUST AWFUL!!! I do NOT want to live in a theocracy of ANY sort. ESPECIALLY one of their design. If "Focus on the Pharisees" approves of it or pushes for it, there must be something wrong with it. WHEN will these butt-inskis learn to BUTT OUT???!?!?

[Jacobin]

78. The TaliBornAgains are the most serious domestic enemy

our country faces today.

And they are in bed with the majority party.

[katty]

105. Yes, TaliBorns, perfect description

[Freedom_from_Chains]

121. Taliborns, I love it!!!!!!!!!!!! n/t

[Hosnon]

141. Very nice...(beep beep)...[added to lexicon] nt

[katty]

103. Sister married one of these nutjobs-she went crazy

the family finally got her completely away from their influence.
These people are CERTIFIABLY INSANE CULTIST FASCISTS.
Why anyone even bothers to argue the 'pro and con' about their motives and tactics just highlights the insanity of presstitute anchors and pundits. THROW A NET OVER ALL OF THEM.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

149. Yeah, being around them for to long can do that to you.

Like a friend of my use to say, crazies can pull me down faster than I can pull them up.

[Maestro]

148. My feelings about these guys

are summed up in that great bumper sticker, magnet, hat, etc...that says, "I have no problem with God. It's His fan club I could do without."

[saskatoon]

152. To all of the posters re this

All of the posts were good but aside from that re the anticipated political messages being sent to churches around the country I am so terribly confused. If they are propounding political views to and in the Church, how can the churches be tax exempt?

[Maraya1969]

155. They CAN'T and we should report them to the IRS

Someone find a link.



OK I'll look for the damned link.

[Coastie for Truth]

2. Two thoughts - but probably unconstitutional as hell

Bill of Rights-->

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


Such a blatant attempt to interfere with the Courts is unconstitutional and "UnAmerican." Maybe we need a new "House UnAmerican Activities Committee" to investigate these clearly unConstitutional and unAmerican activities.
;)

I agree- they should lose their tax exempt status -- IRC 502(c)(3).


I am a "Faith Based Progressive Liberal of Faith" -- a follower of Jimmie Carter, MLK Jr, Jim Wallis, Michael Lerner, Msgr Charles Owens Rice, etc. Dobson et al are blasphemers and heretics who Take the Name of the Lord in Vain.

[etherealtruth]

5. Unfortunately "they"have no respect for the constitution!

[Coastie for Truth]

8. Like Kenneth W Starr said

The law is the law.

Respect is irrelevant. I don't respect the marijuana laws - but they are the law.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

10. Bad news.

Article. III.

Section. 1. The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services, a Compensation which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.

Not only can they potentially de-fund the courts, they can simply do away with the lower courts and there is no provision that the Supreme Court has nine justices one it. It can be reduced to one justice.

This is a threat that should be taken seriously.

[renaissanceguy]

14. At that point, you can bet on a revolution...

Americans may be apathetic about a lot of things, but you take away their right to a fair trial, they'll take to the streets and overthrow the govt.

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.14744291

[Stinky The Clown]

31. We can only hope ... and right now ........

Betting that the won't rise is a safer bet.

This country is royally fucked up.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

36. Well, I have been of the opinion for some time

That considering the contentious nature of the political environment that is being created today, things could get ugly, and sooner than what we might like to think about. Listen to Sen. Leahy on C-Span2 now.

[The Stranger]

39. Are you being sarcastic? If not, heard about this thing called the

Patriot Act? What about Americans being placed in military brigs without access to a lawyer or any hope for a trial, much less due process?

[renaissanceguy]

41. This is far worse than the Patriot Act.

This would guarantee that most Americans WON'T get a fair trial, not just for criminal activity, but for other types of lawsuits.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues/466053

[Hello_Kitty]

51. But..but...

Lawsuits brought by regular citizens are "frivolous" and only "criminals" need to worry about due process and a fair trial dontcha know....

That's what I can hear the sheeple saying right now.

[LiberalFighter]

162. Gee... I wonder how THEY will feel about not getting a fair trial?

Vigilante style

[demigoddess]

157. that's bad enough but now whenever they mention something they don't like

they mention guns and shooting people in the next sentence. that sounds like advocating over throw of the government or civil war to me.

[yodermon]

35. Doesn't that conflict w/ post #2?

re: the 6th & 7th amendments (and the 5th too)?

[Freedom_from_Chains]

38. No, the 6th and 7th amendments

addresses how the courts shall function. It does not address the creation, or dismantling of the court. That same is true for the 5th.

[Unions]

66. No but article 3

Sure as hell states a judges pay shall not be diminished.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

72. No, they can't cut their salary.

But it can still be real hard to work when you don't have any of the amenities like say, a desk, chair, office, or heaven forbid, legal researchers.

[Unions]

79. I have a feeling

that could be construed as lowering a judges compensation. Legal researchers, for instance, are like a benefits package. If you remove them you are removing his compensation.

Besides the right is full of it. You can NOT shut down the courts. Who will handle all the countless criminal trials? Who will handle contract disputes? The country would shut down.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

85. Well maybe you are right

What constitutes compensation, in terms of their salary? Is it as narrowly defined as the pay you take home, or does it include a broader definition?

In terms of judges, I would have to research that question, but it's a safe bet it is defined somewhere. Nevertheless, I will have to say, I have never seen a benefit package where assistants, i.e. legal researchers, are defined as a benefit, part of the compensation package. Normally it is things like health care, profit sharing, etc.

"You can NOT shut down the courts"

Sure you can, the whole government has been shut down before.

"Who will handle all the countless criminal trials? Who will handle contract disputes?"

Now that would be a bitch wouldn't it? People would clamor for action, like say, maybe getting some judges confirmed?

"The country would shut down."

Don't kid yourself that this is not what these people would like to see happen. I watched one of their conferences last week where they as much as said that is where they would like to go with this. Americans really need to wake up and realize, these people are dangerous, and I have hard experience in dealing with them.

[huskerlaw]

110. Right...

and more importantly...who would be doing the construing? Ultimately the Supreme Court. They're not about to allow anyone to get rid of courts, because, as lawyers they do respect the rule of law. Well, at least a majority do.

They have also very recently proven that they won't just bow down to the fundies (Terri Shiavo). Now, do I think this is something to be concerned about? Heck yes. Do I think it would ever actually happen? Not with the current makeup of the Supremes. They would have to replace at least 2 of the moderate to liberal judges first. Replacing Rehnquist doesn't count, since he'd probably be for it anyway.

More to the point, this is a fabulous way to point out just how wacky these fundies are. I just sent this article on to my Focus On the Family loving mother. I can't wait to see what she says. Something tells me that even she will think this is a tad extreme.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

120. Well like Jackson said in the "Indian Removal Act" debacle

"John Marshall has made his decision, not let him enforce".

The point being, the court has no enforcement mechanism, the executive branch controls that. As for the right of the Congress to terminate lower federal courts, there is nothing to construe, they can legally do such, and that has always been the case. Incidentally, the Indians were relocated to Oklahoma.

I would be interested in knowing what your mother thinks of this.

[redqueen]

113. "Dismantling" of courts - is it mentioned anywhere? n/t

[Freedom_from_Chains]

131. It is an implied right since Congress has the right to create courts

However, this thread did give me cause to wonder if it has ever been done before and the answer is yes, it has, in 1802 and in 1913, although there was an issue as to whether or not judges still had to be paid. In the 1802 incident they did not continue to pay the judges, in the 1913 case, they transferred the judges affected to other courts. So there is precedent for Congress to abolish a court.

Source: The Constitution, Edward S. Corwin; Princeton University Press

[JDPriestly]

166. They could probably transfer the judges,

but they cannot retire them and they cannot stop paying them under the Constitution. As for providing chairs, tables, etc., judges could simply provide many of those things for themselves -- or do without. When I worked in the court, we had computers, a telephone, a printer and a fax machine but no money to make copies of documents, and the space we worked in was shabby -- no windows, tiny cubbyholes for the clerks, drab walls. We were too busy to think about aesthetics and comfort, and we still managed to do our work. In this day and age, judges could render decisions with little more than their laptop and a place to read documents. Less money would slow them down; the courts would not run as smoothly as they could; however judges could and probably would continue their work out of principle.

In my experience, all but the most political judges focus on being fair, not on promoting a political viewpoint. I am liberal, but have worked with conservative judges without a problem. I have had differences of opinion on civil rights issues -- but even that was rare. Granted, I would probably have difficulty working with a Scalia or a Janice Brown. But, for the most part, it's like Reno used to say, judges decide based on the facts and the law, not on their emotions.

It is fundamental to our Constitutional system that we have three separate branches of government. The judiciary is not likely to allow itself to be destroyed. It simply has too much important work to do -- too many issues and cases to decide, most of which involve down to earth human disputes and are not at all "political." Without effective courts, our society would simply become a violent anarchy.

[dmr]

163. Yes, redqueen

In the article:

"Very few people know this, that the Congress can simply disenfranchise a court," Dobson said. "They don't have to fire anybody or impeach them or go through that battle. All they have to do is say the 9th Circuit doesn't exist anymore, and it's gone."

These are sick, evil people.

[Coastie for Truth]

37. a Compensation which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in O

"...a Compensation which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office...."

Check out these web sites---
a) http://zapatopi.net/cascadia.html
b) http://jeffersonstate.com/

The flag-->
<>

The philosophical fountainhead-->
<>
Judah Philip Benjamin,
Secretary of State of the Confederate States of America
Attorney General of the Confederate States of America
United States Senator from Louisiana
Confederate States Senator from Louisiana
Personal Attorney to President Hefferson Davis

[JHB]

40. But that means the judges get paid, not that the rest...

...of the infrastructure needed to run a court system gets funded.

[redqueen]

112. This says they can establish courts, not do away with them. n/t

[Freedom_from_Chains]

115. What the Congress giveth

The Congress can take away.

[redqueen]

116. I don't think that'll stand up in court.

:rofl:

[Freedom_from_Chains]

123. Your're right, it won't, as there is nothing to go to court on. n/t

[Hosnon]

137. Well it could theoretically go the Supreme Court to review

any action taken by the Congress vis-a-vis the other federal courts. And the Supreme Court would say: "Sorry District Courts and Courts of Appeall"

Of course, the Congress can't mess with the existence of the S. Ct.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

143. You have to look at it for what it is.

The only court that the Constitution says must exist is the Supreme Court, and even then, it does not define how many judges are required to sit on it. In the past, we have had 6, then 9, then 10, and now we are back to 9. In theory, the Congress could reduce it to 1 judge, which was a question that Tim Russet ask Justice O'Connor during an interview yesterday, and she replied yes, it could be reduced to 1.

However, this thread did give me cause to wonder if it has ever been done before and the answer is yes, it has, in 1802 and in 1913, although there was an issue as to whether or not judges still had to be paid. In the 1802 incident they did not continue to pay the judges, in the 1913 case, they transferred the judges affected to other courts. So there is precedent for Congress to abolish a court.

Source: The Constitution, Edward S. Corwin; Princeton University Press

So to make a case out of it you would have to have a cause of action and with the wording of the Constitution, and precedent to boot, I don't think you have an actionable cause.

[Hosnon]

144. Well you could have a Senator file an action in the remaining

Supreme Court with its single judge challenging whether or not Congress had the authority to do what it did.

At that point the S. Ct. would dismiss on its face.

But yea I agree with you...there would be no actionable cause and with precedent, when it got to the S. Ct., it would reject it and Congress would have its (rightful) way.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

145. LOL, Unfortunatly, that's the long and short of it

Which is what makes this whole thing so serious as I have no doubt that the movers behind the religious right, and lets face it, the rank and file don't have a clue, they are just buying what they are being fed, is just big of enough SOB's to pull some crap like this.

So for people on the Democratic side to be saying, "Oh, they can't, or wouldn't, do that", is just not fully taking stock of the enemy and the threat they pose. These people are very well organized, very focused, very well funded, and they defiantly have a take no prisoner’s mentality.

[Hosnon]

146. Yea I agree...I'm trying to spread the word that Congress can

eliminate all but one court and still act constitutionally.

Know thy enemy...(and his options)

[Freedom_from_Chains]

147. Good deal, keep at it, that is what needs to happen. n/t

[JDPriestly]

169. The federal district and circuit courts

are filled with Republican judges who would protest loudly. Besides, as I keep pointing out, federal judges are appointed for life -- can only be removed by impeachment and are entitled to their salaries for as long as they serve, which can be until death. It's not so simple. Some of the Republicans on the Supreme Court are strong advocates for approving more judges and increasing the funds for the lower courts. Also, corporate defendants like to remove state cases to the federal courts, which are more favorable to them. They would balk at congressional efforts to destroy the courts because it would force them to stay in state courts. This assault on the courts is not well thought out.

[Hebegirl]

164. I have an inkling,

a small shred of hope... As the very extreme schemes hit the light of day (Social Security privatization, Shiavo, Nuklar Option, Bolton, Dobson's designs on abolishing the courts)
and the moderates and fiscal conservatives start wavering
(apparently some Congressmen were 'held up in traffic' and couldn't quite make it to the recent conference put on by the (Extremist) Counsel For a Fair Judiciary)--this doesn't bode well for the TaliBorns. And I have to say for once I am really pleased with the Dems laying low, because it allows the Extremlicans to show their true colors, and I think A LOT of mainstream citizens are quite aghast. I hope and pray for the health of our democracy. A-mein. Even the thought of Tom Delay and his bullet points on Fox News, without rebuttal, taking potshots at "Liberals, Leftists" makes him sound half-cocked (as usual) to the large, mellow middle- the middle that elected Clinton- the middle that really elected Gore and quite possibly Kerry, Let's not forget WE are at least 50% of the country...And DeLay did end up issuing an apology for threatening judges!

[Hosnon]

136. I believe it most certainly will - very well established that Congress

has the lower federal courts by the balls.

[More Than A Feeling]

48. That is a theme that I wish was heard more

It's idolatry, pure and simple. Its people who are too comfortable with the idea of christianity having a preferred position, so any attempt to uphold the separation of church and state is viewed as "persecution"

[CBHagman]

96. A thought just occurred to me as I read your post.

The religious right and their allies in the media will spin any attempt to question their power as an attack on Christianity. The likes of Scarborough at MSNBC and the people at The Washington Times appear to be doing this already.

[Coastie for Truth]

106. As far as these Dominionists and THEIR Book of Revelations

I will refer them to the Apocryphal Book of Maccabees (1 Maccabees 4, verses 26-61).

We lefties know Scripture as well as the Rapture Righties do --- no -- we know it better.

[atreides1]

3. At the very least

These fanatics are seditionist, and along with Frist and Delay should be arrested and tried for sedition.

The two religious organizations in question should have all of its assets seized and its financial records audited.


Sedition:Subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent or
resistance to lawful authority.

The difference between sedition and treason consists primarily in the subjective ultimate object of the violation to the public peace.
Sedition does not consist of levying war against the government nor of adhering to its enemies, giving enemies aid, and giving enemies comfort. Nor does it consist in most representative democracies, of
peaceful protest against a government, nor of attempting to change the government by democratic means(such as direct democracy or
constitutional convention).

[rodeodance]

4. stripping funding is a common tactic to decrease power-but for judges?

I wonder how far this went?


.....An audio recording obtained by the Los Angeles Times features two of the nation's most influential evangelical leaders, at a private conference with supporters, laying out strategies to rein in judges, such as stripping funding from their courts in an effort to hinder their work.

[Pirate Smile]

24. Not just stripping funding, doing the following also.

"Very few people know this, that the Congress can simply disenfranchise a court," Dobson said. "They don't have to fire anybody or impeach them or go through that battle. All they have to do is say the 9th Circuit doesn't exist anymore, and it's gone."


One thing is for sure, thankfully we have a couple of groups (Americans United for Separation of Church and State and People for the American Way) who are now managing to get recordings or videos of what these wackos are planning.

[Unions]

63. Could not happen

The government NEEDS to courts.

Let's say you did abolish the courts - then what? You would bring to immediate halt ALL actions of the courts in the nation. Who will handle divorce/marriage, who will handle contract disputes, who will handle criminal cases?

It could not happen.

[Hosnon]

138. Yea it could - all except the Supreme Court.

The highest court is the only one created by the Const. The rest were created by Congress.

As far as divorce/marriage, those are state court issues (which Congress can't abolish) and federal contract and federal criminal cases would have to go to the Supreme Court.

Efficiency is why the district and appellate levels were created and that efficiency would definintely be lost.

[JDPriestly]

170. Divorce/paternity

are state court issues. State courts are not funded by the federal government and are in no danger in blue states. Red states get what they deserve. You don't need a judge to get married.

[redqueen]

114. Why? Because he says so?

This Dobson guy is insane.

[Unions]

61. They're idiots

You can NOT constitutionally lower a judges pay.

[renaissanceguy]

15. When will the IRS

tax their organizations?!

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.14744291

[ClintonTyree]

21. Can you imagine the hue and cry....

about religious persecution if they did? We'd have every right wing, end of times, fundie, nut job on earth on every 24 hour "news channel" blubbering their eyes out that the "Liberals" want to destroy religion in our "god given country". :eyes: What a freak show that would turn out to be. :silly:

But is HAS to be done. They're obviously trying to dictate governmental policy from the pulpit, and THAT IS WRONG! These (but not REAL Christian Church's) should have their tax exempt status revoked. Period.

[Ilsa]

18. Thanks. I posted before reading the entire thread

because this has me so frustrated, I had to get it off my chest. I appreciate your detail.

[Stuckinthebush]

7. It is high time for the Dems to use this

not only to our advantage, but to the country's advantage.

They need to make public statements, commercials, and speeches that point out with no hesitation the anti-American tendencies of the radical right. They need to show the public how the radicals have taken over our government, and the consequences of not stopping them. They need to use terms such as radical, theocracy, evil intent, unethical, un-American, dangerous, and reckless to describe the GOP today. They should not let up on this labeling and should do everything in their power to rally the public to the defense of America, because it is clear that we are under attack by an internal enemy of the constitution.

[StuckinBFE]

77. I can only wish they would attach Republicans right now but

I don't think it will happen. I think the democratic party is dead right now my only hope is Dean but it will still take him time to get things running. I think we need more organizations like MoveOn.Org and others to lead a charge against the Republicans right now. If we switch to a offensive strategy we can start building a base for '06 and '08 about getting these crazy right-wing nuts out of office. But we have to start now, starting in mid '06 will get us no where.

True Christians are with us on this one. My girlfriends family is a very Christian family but they want separation of church and state more then anyone because their fear is that if they allow one religion in then that means it will allow in all religions. Even though this is not the plan for this organization.

[yellowcanine]

9. If the independence of the judiciary is destroyed, how are we different

from Zimbabwe under Mugabe or the former Soviet Union? Someone should ask Delay and Dobson that.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

13. Short answer: We're not. n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

46. You are right. There is no difference.

For a democracy to work there is a certain "social contract" - whether you start from John Locke ("Locke: Two Treatises of Government" Student edition (Cambridge Texts in the History of Political Thought) by John Locke, et al) or Plato ("The Republic") or Benjamin Franklin or Thomas Jefferson. And where you tear asunder the "social contract" the democratic experiment is a failed experiment.

Maybe, that's why we have a Second Amendment - the ultimate "Department of Homeland Security" and the ultimate "Guarantor of the Bill of Rights."

As I said, check out these web sites for the Free Republic of Cascadia (The Evil Pacific Northwest) and the Free State of Jefferson (The Pot Growing Region of California and Oregon)--

a) http://zapatopi.net/cascadia.html
b) http://jeffersonstate.com /

And the flag of the Free Republic of Cascadia-->

<>



And the philosophical father of American Secessionist Movements-->

<>

Judah Philip Benjamin,
Secretary of State of the Confederate States of America
Attorney General of the Confederate States of America
United States Senator from Louisiana
Confederate States Senator from Louisiana
Personal Attorney to President Jefferson Davis

[maxanne]

12. who elected Dobson?

He has a huge empire which enjoys tax exempt religious status (even though he's not a theologian). We should bombard the IRS with requests that his tax free status be investigated and revoked, for his obvious partisan politicking.

If we don't start seriously fighting back, they will continue to push the envelope - and take over. It's not too late - YET - but it will be if people don't start taking action. BIG PUBLIC ACTION

[renaissanceguy]

16. How can we do that?

If there's a way, I'm sure we can run a HUGE petition on D.U. and MoveOn.

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.14744291

[mopinko]

53. i think a petition is a good idea

i think these bastards are traitors.

[Liberty Belle]

130. Here's how to complain to the IRS:

Where Do You Report Suspected Tax Fraud Activity?

If you suspect or know of an individual or company that is not complying with the tax laws, report this activity. Reports of suspected tax fraud can be made by phone, mail or your local IRS walk-in office.

By phone:
You can contact the IRS toll free at 1-800-829-0433.

International callers may call their US Embassy or call 215-516-2000 (this is not a toll-free number).

By mail:
Written correspondence can be mailed to the service center where you file your return. Addresses can be found at; Where to File Addresses


Also complain to your Senators. Tell them to demand that these groups lose tax exempt status and further, launch a Congressional investigation into sedition and treason charges.

[Ilsa]

17. I keep wondering when DeLay, et al are going to say something

that could not be denied as advocating and planning for the overthrowing of the US govt. Then maybe they could be charged with treason or something. I'm sick of these nuts.

[ClintonTyree]

19. They won't stop...

until they're completely marginalized or have won their religious battle (as they see it) to transform our country into a Theocracy.

Nominated for Home Page.

[grytpype]

20. Fucking freaks.

They aren't going to get what they want, thankfully.

[AValdoux]

22. The irony is the motive

They are not doing this out of general concern (my opinion). They are doing this because it is the push button issue that makes money. The churches involved in this are raking in a lot of contributions to 'defend christianity'. It is all about the bottom line. Hell, it gets them on tv, right. Try getting national coverage saving orphans or feeding homeless people. When's the last time you heard Limbaugh or Hannity going on about churches' efforts toward philanthrophy.


AValdoux

[AmBlue]

28. Ding, ding, ding!!! We have a winner...

It's ALL about the Almighty Dollar. If Jesus WERE here, he'd surely throw these scumsuckers out of the temple. I just finished firing off a letter to FRC telling them all what divisive, dangerous, hate-filled, unAmerican and un-Christian-like behavior they are guilty of. FoF is about to get one from me, too. This should be a federal offense IMHO. I'm one very angry Christian right about now.

[JHB]

23. Americans United page with the recordings:

http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=press_audio

[barbaraann]

27. Oh, that you for that link!

I'm proud to be a member of AU. :-)

[JHB]

30. Well, your thread on this is doing better than my thread on this...

...in GD ( http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3524374&mesg_id=3524374 )

so I thought I'd make sure the information gets where it's most useful.
:patriot:

[barbaraann]

45. Sorry, I missed your earlier thread!

I did a search for evangelicals in the subject line but of course missed your post.

You know, I was just noticing that the Times added the number "2" to the title to downplay the story. They wanted to make it look like it was just a couple of guys, nothing big...

[Maat]

58. Another proud member of A.U. here and ..

the proud Chair of our Separation of Church and State Comm. at our local DFA.

I read the RRR's (Radical Religious Right's) websites daily for writing and presentation material; what I have seen lately is not encouraging - in fact it has been downright scary.

[wryter2000]

47. Bless Barry Lynn

Send AU a few bucks if you can. They've been fighting the good fight for years.

[leftofthedial]

26. How can these assholes continue to claim nonprofit, tax-exempt

status?

They are cynical and evil and corrupt.

And less "Christian" than I am. And I'm an atheist.

[AlCzervik]

29. James Dobson is the true face of evil

[Horse with no Name]

32. Evangelicals discuss changes in judiciary

http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20050422-080916-6361r.htm
>>>>>snip
The Los Angeles Times reported Friday it obtained an audio tape of a March conference when conservative Christian leaders talked about their differences with certain judges. The newspaper said Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, a group opposed to the evangelicals' planned moves, provided the tape.

The tape indicates leaders such as Family Research Council President Tony Perkins and Focus on the Family founder James Dobson discussed having conservative judges placed on the bench and certain judges removed.

"Very few people know this, that the Congress can simply disenfranchise a court. They don't have to fire anybody or impeach anybody or go through that battle. All they have to do is say the 9th Circuit doesn't exist anymore and it's gone," Dobson says on the tape.
>>>>>>snip

GET YOUR CHURCH OUT OF MY STATE! These freaks just keep expanding their pulpits and won't quit until they control the national treasury.
Greedy unGodly bastards! I hope they rot in hell for impersonating men of God.

[wtbymark]

33. from what i understand

i could be wrong,but, i was under the impression that the house of reps doesn't have any say over the judiciary, only the senate.

[ewagner]

34. Except for money matters

The House of Representatives is empowered with jurisdiction over budgets and spending.

[Unions]

70. No kidding

but if you actually bothered to read the constitution rather than giving credibility to these people with your "The house can control money" claim you would know article 3 forbids lowering a judges pay.

[wryter2000]

43. OMG

Is anything ever going to be done to these assholes?!

Mark and Mark had a great term for shills like Frist this morning. Hypochristians.

[Straight Shooter]

49. When a court is stripped of its power to proceed, docket logjams result

Aside from the blatant abuse of power which Dobson and Perkins advocate, the citizens will not appreciate that their cases will be tied up even longer in a court system where the wheels turn slowly enough as it is.

I also don't know what cases the 9th Circuit Court hears, but if they are cases involving, say, business contracts, then you'll have the businesspeople in an uproar.

I don't know the author of this quote, but it holds true: Justice delayed is justice denied. Are Dobson and Perkins attempting to deny justice to Americans?

[drm604]

73. The courts and business...

I think Straight Shooter has an interesting point here. Corporations are legal fictions that only exist due to recognition by the courts. They depend on the judiciary to enforce contracts and to protect patents, property rights, copyrights, etc. Corporations may be at least partly responsible for the mess we're in, but they may also be the ultimate check on just how far it goes.

[CO Liberal]

50. Very Scary Quote From The Referenced Article

"Very few people know this, that the Congress can simply disenfranchise a court," Dobson said. "They don't have to fire anybody or impeach them or go through that battle. All they have to do is say the 9th Circuit doesn't exist anymore, and it's gone."

Now if we could only do the same thing to FoKKKus On The Family.

[manly]

54. stripping court's funds

I hate to think of it but it seems inevitable if things keep on the way they're going. A Revolution or a Civil War is not beyond imagining if the religious nuts prevail in even half of their goals.
And this won't have the geographical separation of the Civil War of 1860, this one will be between neighbors.
The NRA nuts will be armed. The pacifists and liberals won't be. Does this mean that the Dems and the Liberals should go get their weapons now? Later might be too late.
This is what the bushites are bringing the country to. What an incredibly dangerous mess we are in, thanks to bush and his trolls, and they, of course, are too stupid to see it.

[Rainscents]

55. These people are insane!!!

I'm hoping soon..... people will wake up to this and take it to the street!!!

[Maat]

56. I monitor the rightwing websites for my writing and DFA act. ...

Dobson thinks he's very clever - he organized a 501(c)(4), apart from his 501(c)(3). A 501(c)(3) is like a church, a ministry or a charitable or educational non-profit incorporation.

501(c)(4) orgs. are permitted to lobby, and engage in political activity to an extent, in contrast to the (c)(3).

Dobson's (c)(3): Focus on the Family,
Dobson's (c)(4): Focus on the Family Action, and
an org. Dobson founded: Family Research Council.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State (A.U.) still complained against him because he published a c-4-type article in his c-3-type magazine, Citizenlink.

So, they are watching.

This recent law graduate thinks this relentless activity on the RRR's (Radical Relgious Right's) part is one of the most dangerous things going on in our country right now.

Stunning.

[barbaraann]

71. Excellent work.

Thank you for your effort.

[Maat]

83. And thanks for noticing.

Maybe we can all pay attention and spread the word.

These rackets need to be addressed with the community-at-large.

Peace and Blessings,

[Unions]

74. He's not clever

He just has the cash to pay an attorney to take advantage of legal loop holes.

[Maat]

84. There are actually attorneys and tax specialists and general...

accountants that specialize in this type of work.

I know - I'm working with them - because our local progressive org. is going to incorporate as a not-for-profit - hopefully (501-c-4).

[Unions]

75. He's not clever

He just has the cash to pay an attorney to take advantage of legal loop holes.

[AmBlue]

And don't you just LOVE the new Christian law school

that Falwell has opened up recently??? :sarcasm:

These people scare me.

[Maat]

86. It makes me ill.

I bet they are getting an objective education there.

Actually, we have a local one: Trinity Law School in Orange County, Ca.

One of the local "Christian" attorneys (Religious Right), who work alongside the Alliance Defense Fund, graduated from there.

[chomskysright]

88. If Citizen Link is a 501c3, I'll eat my hat: http://www.family.org/cforum/

[Maat]

134. What I have found out ...

and correct me if I'm wrong, is that, supposedly, his "Focus on the Family" is a c-3. His new "Focus on the Family ACTION" is a c-4.

Now, the "CitizenLink" is a bone of contention. Does it stick to the issues and "educating" the public, or does it lobby? I believe that some progressive orgs. are looking into just that.

The funny thing is that I don't expect much out of this IRS as to the bad conduct of conservatives.

Remember, this is the IRS that supposedly went after the 'c-3' status of the Council for National Policy, and supposedly either was about to revoke or revoked their 'c-3' status, but as soon as the Boooshies got into power, mysteriously and I'm sure coincidentally, that revocation went nowhere.


The CNP had not been keeping up in terms of providing educational material to the public, as is required. And membership came by private invitation only, and still does, and a member is not permitted to be public about their membership, per Alternet's article.

[Spinzonner]

139. Is he laundering funds (contributions) from one through the other

or defrauding contributors to the tax-free entity by not revealing their eventual destination ?

[Maat]

172. I would love to know that.

I wonder what funny business is going on myself.

[Skittles]

57. these people are anti-America

do we really need any more proof?

[Az_lefty]

65. These people are fascists.

they are the greatest threat facing this country. It's been said that no one could take away our freedom, it can only be surrendered. The bush cabal realized after 911 that the best way to accomplish this is to scare the hell out of people and they will go willingly.

[Maat]

59. One more thing ... support Soulforce's May 1st plans ...

http://www.soulforce.org/ ...

they are going to rally and point attention to Dobson's destructive activities.

[chomskysright]

90. cool website, using Dr. King's agenda...

signed,
a heterosexual woman who believes that only if the heterosexual community will completely support the homosexual/ transgender community will a good degree of this bullshit STOP for there will be no place for the fundies to go except into madness.

[Maat]

133. I agree.

I think that the good guys need to stand up and loudly speak up for ... the equal protection of the law.

[Unions]

60. People please read the constitution!

The founders were smart enough to anticipate this BS. I would advise everyone to actually read the constitution. It only takes 30 mins and then you'll actually know what it says and thus not freak out about things like this.

From the constitution

" The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services a Compensation, which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office."

[Jacobin]

81. Read it again, my friend

"Judge's compensation" cannot be cut.

That is a small fraction of what they need to run the courts...bailiffs, clerks of court, buildings, law clerks, utilities, office supplies, telephones, the list goes on and on and it's not cheap.

If they cut their budgets, they can affect their ability to operate.

I'm glad this is happening actually. I think the fundies have finally jumped the shark and I predict 70% or more will rise up against them. I don't think congress will cut them. Its a ploy to get the extreme fundies to the polls and giving money to the fundie churces.

[Unions]

108. Clearly against the spirit of the clause

Do you truly believe the founders when they wrote this clause meant that you could remove funding for everything else in order to accomplish the same thing they were trying to prevent?

The founders added this clause to insure an independent judiciary. Do you really believe they should have said "No funding can be removed for the guy that takes out the trash, paper, pencils, oh um maybe carpet too, um the wood in the building, the nails used to build it, oh gee what else..."

Please get real. I don't know why you want to defend this. The intent of this clause is very clear. Removing funding for everything else in a pathetic attempt to dodge it isn't going to fly.

[barbaraann]

118. You're assuming that the GOP respects the Constitution and

the Rule of Law. I haven't seen any indication of that in the last five years.

[Hosnon]

140. Good point - I'd like to see an attorney hash out that argument (intent)

[JDPriestly]

124. Yes

"The Judges . . . shall at stated Times, receive for their Services a Compensation, which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office." That is a key provision.

Alexander Hamilton explains in The Federalist Papers Nos. 78 and 79 that the purpose of that provision, along with the lifetime appointment provision, is to guarantee the independence of the federal judiciary and to protect the interests of individuals and minorities against "the arts of designing men." He states that the legislative body is not the judges of its own powers but that "it is far more rational to suppose that the courts were designed to be an intermediate body between the people and the legislature in order, among other things, to keep the latter within the limits assigned to their authority."

The Federalist Papers, 78-81 totally destroy the Republicans' arguments on this issue. Where is the Federalist Society on this point? Why aren't they chastising DeLay and Frist on this? They need to rub the red out of their eyes and see the true blue truth for once.

[ronnykmarshall]

68. Makes me glad to see the posts on yahoo.

Please dear god, let the sheep finally wake up!

[Roland99]

69. Jesus is SO proud!!

[NashVegas]

82. Sedition?

Sure kinda looks like it.

[Liberty Belle]

127. Yes, undermining the government and the Constitution.

It's treasonous, in my opinion.

[JDPriestly]

171. No, treason is narrowly defined in Article III.

Please read the Constitution.

[Marthe48]

87. What other word besides theocracy?

how many people really understand that term? I'm not being an intellectual snob, but a word like this can put the argument out of reach for people who slept through English

I checked the thesaurus and a couple of website and there doesn't seem to be an alternative word for the term.

That right there is a giveaway about the lack of choice we'll have.

I have a friend in Costa Rica, where the Catholic church is the state. She said there is no social argument about abortion, or divorce, because the church is the state and both are against the Church.

How many DUers remember 'Divorce Court' on TV in the early 60's--people had to go to court to get a divorce and if the judge didn't think there was cause, the people couldn't get divorced.

If the US becomes a church state, these are things that are going to be affected and the public has to be made aware that its not just criminals, not just sexual or ethnic minorities that will be targeted, but all of us.

Frist, Hastert, Dobson, Reed, all of them, they are NOT representatives of religion, they are using the idea of God as an unassailable argument --what kind of person can you be if you are against religion?

What kind of mindset do they have that they can make everything backwards of the true meaning and act like they believe it?

[Mugsy]

89. Remember that old "Separation of Church and State" nonsense?

It makes one wonder...

Doesn't the number of "non-evangelicals" (Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Jehova's Witnesses, etc) VASTLY outnumber these wankers? Why aren't they making more noise, complaining about the way this Administration has marched this country lockstep with the agenda of the Religious Right?

I remember a few years ago Bill Maher joking "So what if they allow prayer in schools? What, will America turn into a theocracy in 5 years?"

I don't hear him making those jokes anymore.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

97. Sure the numbers are greater

But they are not as well organized as these people. Keep in mind the radical right has spent the last 25 years organizing and preparing for this.

[Roland99]

91. "We set up the courts. We can unset the courts." - DeLay

"We set up the courts. We can unset the courts. We have the power of the purse"



Holy Crap!!

[Coastie for Truth]

99. If he were a Dem and said that in the 1950's

Senator Joesph R. McCarthy and Director J. Edgar Hoover would have had his butt in Alcatraz -- and no time off to go the Ghiradelli Square.

[JDPriestly]

125. Yes.

They are basically advocating the overthrow of the American Constitution and the government.

[Coastie for Truth]

100. If he were a Dem, and said that during Viet Nam

Rove-Swift Boat Veterans For the Truth would have had Abobe Photoshop pictures of him in bed with Jane Fonda and burning his medals in front of the White House - and would have had Ashcroft arrest him.

[Coastie for Truth]

101. If he were a Dem instead of a Repug

he would be on trial for giving material aid and comfort to AlQaida - and to the Baathists.

[CBHagman]

92. Basically an attempt to destroy our constitutional system.

These are autocratic, theocratic, pseudo-Christian fascist groups, pure and simple. They want to set up a system where they do not have to answer to anyone who does not rigidly adhere to their belief system. I have no doubt that they would turn like dogs on any current ally who doesn't back them up in some other area.

I get the impression that people really don't realize how much danger this country is in and how much pandering there is, to say nothing of outright sale of power to the highest bidder. It could be years before we know the full extent of corruption, but we must call it what it is now.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

98. Basically an attempt to destroy our constitutional system.

Bingo

[The Backlash Cometh]

93. Why don't we say it? This is evidence of a conspiracy.

The right-wingers are trying to take this country out by destroying anything that stands in its way. We have two questionnable presidential elections; a few senate elections which don't seem to add up and now they're attacking the judiciary in unholy ways.

What's it going to take? huh? What's it going to take to wake up the rest of America?

[Coastie for Truth]

102. We all STILL have our own personal Department of Homeland Security

to protect our rights from any "law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", and it is the very next Amendment---

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

It doesn't say "Rightie People" or "Rapture Repug People" - it says THE PEOPLE

[Virginian]

111. Sedition -- Conspiracy -- Just two of the words that come to mind. n/t

[Hissyspit]

160. 'Seven Days In May' - when Rod Serling and the novelists came up with...

that plot in the early 1960s, it was a threat of a military coup (inspired, I guess, by the real-life conspiracy in the 1930s), just transfer it to the Dominionists and Evangelicals today.

[Virginian]

104. Just WHO is running out country?

Or should I say who is running the people who were elected to run this country.

These are the people who keep saying this is a Christian nation. Whatever happened to separation of church and state and whatever happened to separation of church and hate. They want this country to be a theocracracy but they are preaching from a different New Testament, one I don't know.

I don't recognize the form of Christianity these men preach. Whatever happened to "Love thy neighbor" and "Turn the other cheek" and "Blessed are the peacemakers" and "Blessed are the meek"? When did "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" get changed to "Do unto others so they can't do unto you"?

I am afraid of the world of repression these "men of God" would create if they were allowed to have unelected control over our government. Just as in the Muslim countries like Afghanistan, women would have no rights, no rights to vote, no rights to be out in public without a father or husband, no rights to an education or proper medical care.

Is this what they mean by an "ownership society?" Would we go back to the days when women were chattel, where men owned their wives and daughters? I am afraid of these "Christian" men and the power they have over our elected officials.

[barbaraann]

109. Thule Gesellschaft?

Just asking.

[me b zola]

132. "ownership society"

Add to your dead-on examples, corporate ownership of all of the wealth & oportuintes. 90% of us will effectively be chattle, but hay, isn't that the true goal of a theocracy?

[jenn1977]

117. "need to lose their tax exemption"

i totally agree. what can we do? who do we contact?

[barbaraann]

119. It seems like joining Americans United for the Separation of Church &State

is the best thing to do. (I'm a a member.)

[Liberty Belle]

129. Call the IRS: 800-829-0433 to report tax fraud activity

Where Do You Report Suspected Tax Fraud Activity?

If you suspect or know of an individual or company that is not complying with the tax laws, report this activity. Reports of suspected tax fraud can be made by phone, mail or your local IRS walk-in office.

By phone:
You can contact the IRS toll free at 1-800-829-0433.

International callers may call their US Embassy or call 215-516-2000 (this is not a toll-free number).

By mail:
Written correspondence can be mailed to the service center where you file your return. Addresses can be found at; Where to File Addresses

[Solly Mack]

122. so an attack on the 3rd branch of government?

Isn't there a word for that already?

[Hosnon]

142. And the Judiciary is the only historically SANE branch - poor branch....

[Liberty Belle]

126. I just sent this to Barbara Boxer and asked her to demand

that these groups be stripped of their tax exempt status.

[Hissyspit]

159. "You Christian-Hating Librul! Attacking the Culture of Life!" /sarcasm off

[HockeyMom]

128. Sick, Sick, Sick of Evangelicals

WHEN are they going to wake up and realize that the MAJORITY of Christians in this country are not Evangelical/Fundamentalist/Born Again? Why should they rule? Why should they rule over NON CHRISTIANS too?

Those people think they are going to get a damned Theocracy.

[ltfranklin]

135. This should be something we hit them over the head with!

This is what I'd love to see in a Advertisement; the following statements (Audio from tape, with text), followed by a simple text screen:


Dobson: "We've got a right to hold them accountable for what happens here."

Perkins: "We need to shake these guys up."

Dobson: "Sometimes it's just amazing to me that they seem to forget how they got here."


Dobson: "Conservatives all over the country" have to tell Frist "that he needs to get on with it."

followed by:

How about it, Senator Frist?
How about it, Republicans?

Ready to follow orders?

[Democat]

150. Democrats need to go on the attack very publicly

On one hand Republicans are accusing Democrats of holding up 10 Bush extremist judges. At the same time, Republicans are secretly doing everything they can to hold up all of the judges in the country!

Democrats need to go on the attack and get some press for this. We have an election coming up in a year and half and we need to undermine the Republicans and expose their corruption every day between now and then!

[LatePeriduct]

165. Kicked

[LatePeriduct]

151. The ALBRATROSS IS FLYING: He can be shot down!

http://houseofscandal.org

[Anakin Skywalker]

153. Time To Start Taxing These Fundies!

If they are gonna play, they gotta pay. :)

[Maraya1969]

156. IRS Tax fraud reporting info!

I just got off the phone with a very nice lady. I explained as best I could the type of fraud going on here. Anyone else??




http://www.irs.gov/compliance/enforcement/article/0,,id=106778,00.html


Where Do You Report Suspected Tax Fraud Activity?


If you suspect or know of an individual or company that is not complying with the tax laws, report this activity. Reports of suspected tax fraud can be made by phone, mail or your local IRS walk-in office.
By phone:

You can contact the IRS toll free at 1-800-829-0433.

[Hissyspit]

158. "Why Do They Hate America So Much?"

"Why Do They Hate The Constitution So Much?"

[mark wayne]

161. God, save us from your followers.

These people are nothing but the Americanized version of the Taliban. God help us! I agree that they need to start paying taxes as a political organization.