Breaking 6 killed 11/12 shot in Sheraton Hotel in Wisconson..link

[ElsewheresDaughter]

what is happening?...violence toxin in the air or water?


http://www.jsonline.com/news/wauk/mar05/309035.asp

[Blue to the bone]

1. Where's Rove? n/t

[LisaL]

2. Guns, guns and more guns.

:nuke:

[saigon68]

157. Our Retarded DINO Doyle Vetoed Concealed Carry

Thanks Doyle!!! you MORAN

THE PEOPLE COULD NOT DEFEND THEMSELVES

Against this right wing religious FUNDIE whack job--- who wasn't about to follow any rules or laws what so ever

I'll be glad to see Doyle go. He won't win the next time.

[bobthedrummer]

158. I was supporting Kathleen Falk myself. Doyle surely knows where the

skeletons from Tommy Thompson's gang are buried-once progressive Wisconsin has been corrupted--look at the news from just before the election, there's a bunch of criminals sitting in Madison still.

And Gov. Doyle isn't prosecuting them enough.

[saigon68]

160. I agree Doyle is an embarrassment.

He is going down next time around. A thorough house cleaning is necessary. He has set the state back a generation from the true democrats, Nelson, Proxmire and Lucey.

[proud2BlibKansan]

183. They were in church!!

Do you honestly believe they would be packin at church??

[saigon68]

210. I would

But then again, I don't go to a Fundie whack job church

[knotuntiedyet]

187. Was the concealed carry for criminals or law abiding citizens?

Do either really need a gun to defend themselves?

[saigon68]

211. Criminals don't DEFEND THEMSELVES.

They kill anyone who gets in their way---They care less about your or my well being.

Being Narcissistic Addicts who need pleasurable feed back at every turn.

[Cooley Hurd]

3. It's like the friggin' Wild West out there...

Guns blazing, shoot-em-up kind of shit...

Here's the MSNBC Breaking News banner text: Eight people reported shot at hotel in Brookfield, Wisconsin - Details soon...

[Blue to the bone]

5. Shouldn't Buchco's eyes be red, not the poor Chimp he imitating? n/t

[jus_the_facts]

18. reminiscent of The Unforgiven....

:crazy:

[TankLV]

192. Good point - take it one step further: Most "wild west" towns had a law

that required EVERYONE to give up their guns to the local sheriff as soon as they entered the town. Seems even the western locals got tired of all the violence and BANNED ALL GUNS in their respective towns.

People tend to forget that small fact.

[HereSince1628]

4. The Sheraton in Brookfield on Moreland Road at I-94

It took place in a meeting room...


Update: Six people shot, Chief of Police statement...
shooting at 12:51 PM
Took place in a hotel where a CHURCH meeting was taking place
The suspect died of self-inflicted wounds

[NYC]

6. Please post updates when you get them.

Thanks in advance.

[HereSince1628]

7. Five, including the suspect are dead, 7-8 others transferred to hospitals

all in serious condition
aged from early teens to -60

Apparently part of a regular church service, but the organization

No name of the church available at this time.

[HereSince1628]

8. Conflicting evidence suggests this church meeting may include out of state

participants.

[Cooley Hurd]

9. So they're saying 11-12 were shot (not incl shooter)?

Shit...:(

[HereSince1628]

12. COrrect, 12-13 victims, 4 plus the shooter confirmed dead

[itzamirakul]

13. This violence is truly heartbreaking...

What upsets me is that the violence is taking place across the nation, not just in one so-called "dangerous" city or neighborhood anymore. It is in the churches and courtrooms and dentist offices and radio stations as well as in the ghettos.

When are people going to wake up and see that part of the frustration is because everyone KNOWS deep inside that Bush is irrevocably changing America FOREVER and even those who go to his rallies and cheer for him and refuse to see what is in front of their eyes KNOW that Bush has ruined America for decades and generations to come.

[Retired AF Dem]

124. Dont think it matters who the president is

hell most of the school shootings took place under Clinton.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stepnw1f]

172. It Matters if Your Not Blind (nt)

[Bouncy Ball]

214. How can it not matter?

And you'll notice this latest rash aren't school shootings, but random shootings in public. Hell, we've now had another road rage shooting here in Dallas. Now I'm afraid to drive on the highways again. A random guy just shot another guy as they were driving on the freeway.

If you don't see the connection between economic desperation (and the administration that has created that) and random acts of violence in our society, that's called "blindness."

[medeak]

14. saturday

7th day adventist?

can't imagine them being violent?

[HereSince1628]

22. Television reported a hotel customer said Church of God

[RevCheesehead]

65. No.

Many churches have alternate services on the weekend. But since they called this a "church gathering," it may have been some kind of special event. And sometimes, churches meet in whatever location they can find.

Since they've been unofficially identified as "Church of God," they are probably the latter group.

[Rose Siding]

24. Here's a link -not much more than you have, though

BROOKFIELD, Wis. - A shooting at a church function at the Sheraton hotel left five people — including the gunman — dead and sent several people to area hospitals Saturday afternoon, authorities said.
The gunman apparently shot and killed himself, said Brookfield Police Department Daniel Tushaus.

"There is nobody else being sought at this time as a suspect,'' he said.

Seven to eight people, ages from early teens to the 60s, were taken to hospital and were in serious condition, he said.

The shooting was reported to police at 12:51 p.m. Tushaus said it occurred during a regularly scheduled church service at the hotel.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/5288840.html

[HereSince1628]

30. Hospital news conference 3....nothing really in their update

no real word on conditions yet.

on edit--removed suggestion patients were sent to Madison as the hospital spokesperson couldn't confirm a question asked about that.
.

6 adults went to Froedert hospital (its associated with Medical College of Wisconsin)

1 child sent to Children's hospital


Nothing

[HereSince1628]

44. The death count is going to go higher, but with relatives in transit

the hospital doesn't want to make any specific announcements.

[hue]

154. I live here..was shopping at a mall here a mile away at the time. nt

[hector459]

10. Well, the "terrorists and Al-Qaeda" just have to sit back while we self-

destruct. People are getting crazier and crazier in this country. Our society is broken and difficult to mend. Everyman and woman for money and themselvs first. Tear down and smear what was good about this country and replace it with intolerance, hate, bigotry, religious fanaticism, and Fascism.

[mhr]

26. Bingo! - Add To That That This Only Reinforces The Frame Of Fear

That Rove and Bush have so carefully constructed.

The cynical side of me will go further and suggest that these might be internal special ops designed just to agitate the populace and keep people on edge.

Before you flame me on that last comment, consider how easily Bush lied America into war. Is it really that hard to believe that he and Rove would be above internal black ops.

Sadly, the only conclusion is NO!

[Judi Lynn]

34. Very likely you've already heard about "Operation Northwoods,"

which shows terrorism on U.S. soil was approved by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and considered a completely acceptable tool to move the country toward a desired state of mind...

Since this happened in the '60's, was even signed by them all, although rejected by Kennedy's administration, it would seem logical to assume it has ALWAYS remained as a possible tool to be used whenever and wherever helpful.

N E W Y O R K, May 1, 2001 In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba.

Code named Operation Northwoods, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.

The plans were developed as ways to trick the American public and the international community into supporting a war to oust Cuba's then new leader, communist Fidel Castro.

America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation."
(snip)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

[mhr]

35. My Comment Was Made With Northwood In Mind

Thanks for the refresher.

[signmike]

37. Remember The Maine

[lyonn]

82. Suicide by shooter

Is that mentioned in this plan? Seems unlikely.

[Judi Lynn]

93. What is it you want to discuss? Be more specific.

I don't think we were speaking as if we believe this is set in stone. Consider it "wool gathering," or thinking in larger, or more general terms.

[lyonn]

102. It's the Northwood angle

that I was debating in that our Govt. would have to find a suicide type person to pull this off. Now, if the shooter got away this might fit but, since he killed himself I think he is probably a very disturbed person that didn't get help from his Church. This new Govt. that we have blames all the worlds ills on the lack of faith in His religion (his term seems to be Democracy rather than religion), I do get confused. In the back of my mind is the haunting term "faith based" that Bush wanted to give $$ to to help those with problems that we are giving tax breaks on their church income. Rambling. Anyway, I thought that was what church contributions were for, to help the needy. People are stressing and cracking, contrary to the flack from the media that all is well.

[hippiechick]

151. All it would take to make the shooter suicidal

... is some 'hypno therapy' and/or a screwed up anti-depressant cocktail for a span of time before the event, and there ya go ... one 'Lone Nutcase' on the loose.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

179. I thought that was what church contributions were for

to help the needy.

Those that suffer from psychotic religiosity are the needed and the ones most in need of help. Unfortunately Bush wants to give them more money to perpetuate their psychosis on others.


http://alternativesmagazine.com/31/levy.html

[Bouncy Ball]

215. The federal government gave churches (all fundie) $3 billion

of taxpayer money in 2003 under bush.

You see any of that money helping people?

I don't, either.

[RoeBear]

36. Well... the terrorists and Al-Queda

...seem to be taking themselves out pretty well in Iraq.

[girl gone mad]

95. These kind of shooting sprees..

were common during the Reagan years.

There's a definite link between a depressed economy and violent crime.

Meanwhile, the MSM refuses to acknowledge the economic chaos Bush & Co. are putting average Americans through, or to report on the looming crisis that threatens to destroy the finances of all but the wealthiest.

[JoFerret]

133. And an even stronger link

between guns and death by gunfire.

[Judi Lynn]

11. Was this guy a "terrorist" or just someone expressing

his appreciation of his 2nd ammendment rights?

[HereSince1628]

17. Nothing yet reported on the shooter, they identified and taken that

person's car.

The television news is using a male pronoun.

Police say in minutes they will take down the yellow tape and let the Hotel return to "normal" if that's possible on such a day.

[Judi Lynn]

25. Thanks. Haven't ever heard of a mass murder in a hotel, outside

the one blown up in Baghdad which housed war reporters.

No doubt the hotel pressed the cops to let them start earning income again, but I agree with you: the tension still remaining there just wouldn't be worth it. If I were a guest at the hotel, I'd defintely want to check out as soon as possible.

[DoNotRefill]

47. Where in the Second Amendment....

does it say anything about the "right to murder people"?

[Sterling]

64. What fun is having a gun if you can't kill someone?

nt

[DoNotRefill]

121. that's like saying what fun is having a car...

if you can't drink and drive...

[postulater]

15. 5 fatalities

[Spinzonner]

16. Is this Multiple Murder Week ?

I must have missed the proclamation

[WatchWhatISay]

19. Boyz gone wild in America

While we bring a new culture of Girlz gone wild to Iraq.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1305849

A lavender flier advertising the troupe's Baghdad show Thursday portrayed a quartet of women wearing faux military uniforms that consisted of headgear, halter tops and hot pants. According to its Web site, the Angelz' act consists of singing, provocative dancing and acrobatics.

[Serial Mom]

20. Here's Link

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wauk/mar05/309035.asp

A gunman opened fire at the Sheraton Hotel on Moorland Road in Brookfield this afternoon, killing four people and seriously wounding up to eight others before killing himself, according to police.

The shootings apparently occurred at a church gathering in a meeting room at the hotel, Brookfield police said. The victims ranged in age from early teens to 60s.

No other suspects are being sought in the incident.

The hotel is just off of Interstate 94 near the Brookfield Square Ma


This is just west of Milwaukee WI

[Inland]

21. Repub. WI senator introduces bill to allow bellboys to carry guns. nt

[0007]

73. .....and educators

[Tweed]

130. Hilarious

I'm not sure if everyone here knows about Larry "Barbarian" Bomke's new proposal though. I appreciated the joke though. :thumbsup:

[medeak]

23. here we go... now that Atlanta shooter has been found

something else to fill the airwaves.

[Serial Mom]

27. 5 dead in shootings at Brookfield hotel

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wauk/mar05/309035.asp

A gunman opened fire at the Sheraton Hotel on Moorland Road in Brookfield this afternoon, killing four people and seriously wounding up to eight others before killing himself, according to police.

The shootings apparently occurred at a church gathering in a meeting room at the hotel, Brookfield police said. The victims ranged in age from early teens to 60s.

No other suspects are being sought in the incident.

The hotel is just off of Interstate 94 near the Brookfield Square Ma


This is just west of Milwaukee WI - being reported on local TV here that 4 victims dead plus the shooter and maybe up to 9 more shot

[Serial Mom]

28. Sorry - dupe

here' other thread ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1306692

[bobbieinok]

33. unpleasant thought....will be spun as attack on 'real Christians'

[DoYouEverWonder]

29. Thank god

Bush is keeping us safe from those al Qaeda terrorists. Otherwise there would be no one left for Americans to shoot.

[devinsgram]

31. Welcome to Bush's America

Get used to it, it is not going to get better, only worse.

[Conservativesux]

209. You beat me to it!

I couldnt agree more.

No decent healthcare system, no decent jobs on the horizon, stagnant wages, declining Q-O-L, backruptcies at an all time high....ect.

Be very careful what you say and do these days, because BushAmerica is packed full of armed, overwrought people just waiting for an excuse to draw first blood.

[liberalitch]

32. fuckin' more religious nuts with guns....

[RevCheesehead]

56. would you please be a little more sensitive?

Some of us are worried about friends and relatives in the area.

[1monster]

38. This is ten miles from where my stepdaughter lives. I just spoke to her

grandmother and she knew nothing about it...

[HereSince1628]

This is about 5 miles from where I live, the Chicago judge shooter

arrest earlier this week took place about 2 miles from where I live...

Bad week for the neighborhood...

[karlrschneider]

39. Yahoo says 4 fatalaties

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20050312/ap_on_re_us/hotel_shooting_2

[RetroLounge]

40. This is just down the road from me

Religious Nuts and guns. Anyone Surprised?

RL

[Zynx]

41. That's about fifteen minutes from my house.

That's a little close for comfort.

[ausiedownunderground]

42. Could you please explain why America is so religious still!!!

In the Anglo-Saxon world, it is quite a shock at how religious American's are. I personally lived in America for a couple of years in the 70's and did see a rather large feeling of "god's" presence in the country at that time. I have lived in a lot of countries since then (No Muslim countries) however, although i have visited quite a few, and i have this feeling of Christian America v Muslim's anywhere they turn up! American's must "chill" out and Muslim's must "chill" out While you people are having your disagrements the rest of us are going to "slip" in the backdoor and take control of the "WORLD" under your noses! This is just a hint!!! But of course America will not take this seriously!!!

[ClassWarrior]

115. What does religion have to do with it?

If some SOB goes nuts and shoots up a grocery store, will you wonder why people are still eating, too??

NGU.

[RevCheesehead]

116. ...

:thumbsup:

NGU.

[leesa]

122. We know. Please hurry, will ya?

[katinmn]

127. I'm hearing you! We have the most violent society and the

most people who claim to be Christians. And our president, who still thinks Amerika is the best country of all, wants to spread this "love" around the world.

We have a boatload of problems that need taking care of here, in the USA. It's a crisis situation.

[RetroLounge]

43. There will be a press conference at 5pm

One of the victims is in stable condition at Childrens, the rest are at Froetdert Hospital.

RL

[HereSince1628]

48. The Living Church of God is the name of the group

They are being closed lipped about the shooter...

Apparently one of the victims transported to Froedert (where the adults were transported) has died, this is in addition to the 5 previously mentioned.

[sarcasmo]

104. Maybe it was one of those Religious nut job mass suicides for their Rapture

[RetroLounge]

45. Just announced Death Toll has gone up

but only said *more* than 5 dead...

RL

[RetroLounge]

46. Living Church of God

Living Church of God is name of church who had meeting

http://www.livingcog.org

Preach, to all the nations of the world, the Gospel of the Kingdom and the true name of Jesus Christ.

Preach the end-time prophecies and the Ezekiel warning, particularly to the "Israelitish" peoples.

Feed the flock whom God calls, that all may be built to the stature of Jesus Christ.

Be examples to the world, and to the Church at large, of Christ’s way of life.

Learn and practice servant leadership in all our dealings with others.

Build an atmosphere of radiant faith within God’s Church.

Restore Apostolic Christianity, and all that this implies.

http://www.livingcog.org/mission.htm

RL

[mhr]

57. Hm, Could God Be Telling Them They Have The Wrong Message?

eom

[HereSince1628]

60. Local tv reporter says the group had someone unhappy with the way things

were going...I guess that goes without saying at this point.

[lyonn]

84. Hey 1628

What is Invert evolution? Sounds interesting.

[knitter4democracy]

71. That makes it sound non-denom and independent.

Of course, we already have Apostolic Christianity . . . :eyes:

I've been a part of one of these kinds of churches before. They tend to attract all sorts but many, many people down on their luck and a bit unstable. They keep them in, trying to help them, but it does put everyone at risk.

Of course, there might be all kinds of things going on . . .

How terribly sad that kids were involved. That just makes it hurt even more.

[stlsaxman]

91. "Learn and practice 'servant leadership' in all our dealings with others."

wtf is "servant leadership"? doesn't sound very Christian to me...

[girl gone mad]

98. It has been my experience that end-times believers..

tend to devalue life.

Believing God is going to show up any day now changes your perspective pretty drastically.

[Aviation Pro]

118. End timers....

...also known as Rapture nut jobs believe they have nothing to live for because of their - apparent to them - failure of their lives. Therefore, they pray for the end of humanity because the "know" they will ascend to heaven (it's their coin of the realm since in this world they are economically inviable). IMHO, they are sick and twisted bastards.

Fortunately for us, God is an incredibly witty deity and will have the last laugh because His plan is for all of us to be worm bait.

[Cheney Killed Bambi]

49. Chruch Shooting in Milwaukee

CNN Breaking -- A gunman apparently shot four people at church meeting near Milwaukee before shooting himself, police said. Details to come.

[RetroLounge]

50. Dupe

(Weird, they combined the threads...)

RL

[Cheney Killed Bambi]

52. Ooops

Please delete -- this is a dupe.

[RevCheesehead]

51. Link to Mke Journal:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wauk/mar05/309035.asp

I would like info on which church group was involved, ASAP!!!

[medeak]

54. was told in corresponding thread

HereSince1628 (1000+ posts) Sat Mar-12-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #14

22. Television reported a hotel customer said Church of God

[HereSince1628]

53. There won't be new news until after 5PM central.

We in Wisconsin will expect videoreports at 6 and 10.

[RetroLounge]

55. Christians or some radical church?

I just heard the news-bimbo on TV here in Milwaukee actually ask this question.

"Was this a normal Christian Church or some radical group?"

Sheesh. The X-tian apologists start quickly.

RL

[RevCheesehead]

59. Church of God is usually (but not always) African-American. n/t

[stillcool]

62. Do you mean Baptist?

[RevCheesehead]

63. No. It is a protestant denomination.

Usually called _____ Church of God, or Church of God in Christ. They are more evangelical than mainline protestants, but I wouldn't necessarily call them a "fundie" group.

[knitter4democracy]

72. Depends on the pastor, from what I understand

Some are more radical than others.

[RevCheesehead]

75. as a pastor, I'm more inclined to say that it depends on the congregation.

In many of these churches, the congregations choose their own pastor.

[knitter4democracy]

77. Oh, that's very true!

I forgot about that. Being non-denom or loosely denominational, they would be run more by the church board than by the pastor. Thank you for clearing that up!

[BornLeft]

67. ?????????

????????????
Just wierd statment.

[RevCheesehead]

74. why is that weird?

Many of the denominations came from the 19th century "Holiness Movement." This particular denomination, "Church of God," has deep roots in Aftrican-American denominations.

Perhaps my comments should have included "if anyone thinks this is a radical, right-wing fundie fringe group, they probably aren't."

Now there ARE also "white" churches, too, but historically, they have been African-American.

[BornLeft]

80. well being forced to go

to the church of god as a youngster all i saw were rednecks,racists and babbling idiots. very white too. perhaps this is a new church of god group.
These people are 1 step away from the snake handlers.

[RevCheesehead]

81. I can understand that.

Lots of religious differences based on geographical location. I don't know for certain, but these groups are not prevalent around here. That's why I'm inclined to believe they were what was once called a "storefront church."

[RetroLounge]

69. Thanks. I did not know that.

RL

[HereSince1628]

76. I watched video rerun...some of the victims were white not that

that means anything, they could still attend a mostly African American Church

[RevCheesehead]

79. It would be fair to say

that in WI, nearly everything is white.

I'm anxious to hear more reports - NOTHING being shared here in Green Bay!

[qanda]

83. Wrong!

Church of God in Christ is an African-American organization. Church of God, and there are two major ones (one in Tennessee and one in Indiana), is a predominately white organization. I know, because I grew up in the Church of God (TN) and my mother is the pastor of a Church of God. BTW, I am black.

On Edit: From the information I saw on the website, I don't think this church is affiliated with any either of the major Church of God organizations.

[Ezlivin]

58. They'd all be instantly raptured to Gitmo if they were Muslims

You can bet that Homeland Security would be all over this bad boy if there were so much as one Muslim within earshot of the incident.

[maddezmom]

61. AP - Gunman Kills Four, Himself at Wis. Hotel

Gunman Kills Four, Himself at Wis. Hotel

6 minutes ago U.S. National - AP



BROOKFIELD, Wis. - A gunman opened fire Saturday at a church service being held at a hotel, killing four people and sending several others to hospitals, authorities said.



The gunman then apparently shot and killed himself, said Daniel Tushaus, chief of the Brookfield Police Department.


"There is nobody else being sought at this time as a suspect," he said.


Seven to eight people, ranging from their early teens to their 60s, were taken to hospitals in serious condition, he said.

~snip~
more: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=716&e=2&u=/ap/20050312/ap_on_re_us/hotel_shooting

[HereSince1628]

78. Local tv update suggesting the toll is now 7, six victims and the shooter

that's based on the reporter's belief that "some" is a plural number, nothing more has been confirmed by medical or police officials.

Now confirming the shooter was a man.

Adult victims sent to the Froedert Hospital were 4 men and 2 women.

[DS1]

66. TIMMY!

:D

[Sean Reynolds]

68. Obviously if these people had guns...

They could have fired back and killed the guy. /tic

[NNN0LHI]

70. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition n/t

[Dudley_DUright]

85. Jeez, I use to live about a mile from that hotel

:-(

[Sugarbleus]

86. A violent national/international policy can expect violence within....

I made a prediction some months ago,that if Bush's domestic policies were left to run amok, we'd see a rise in crime.

I wasn't talking about this type of crime though. I can only surmise that while violence happens all over the world, it happens more often in an environment were violence, hatred, division, and "might makes right" reigns.....IMO

I'm very sorry for the loss of life today.

[Karenina]

87. America is a VERY

VERY VIOLENT society, on every level. Violence is part of our human condition and happens EVERYWHERE. The truly SAD aspect is that a citizenry whose heritage offered SUCH an enlightened structure has become so corrupted. The violence you have exported will exacerbate your pre-existing condition and ain't NONE of your "insurance" *companies gonna cover it. :SIGH:

[alarimer]

110. yes

Someone said earlier that violent crimes increase during bad economic times. I have no idea what the possible motivation was for this act, however. Ours is a "shoot first, ask questions later" kind of society.
It is only a matter of time before someone suggests that the rest of the church group should have been armed too so as to "take out the shooter". But I guess he took care of that himself.

[hue]

152. VIOLENT/ANGRY/MAD n/t

[slackmaster]

219. It's not society's fault

Murder is the fault of murderers.

[Karenina]

220. Iraq, anyone?

Support "our" troops!

[RetroLounge]

88. TV reporting 7 or 8 deaths

Investigating a house in New Berlin, WI with some connection.

RL

[MADem]

89. Wow, you can't even go to church in a Sheraton Hotel anymore!!!!

The shootings occurred at a Living Church of God gathering in a meeting room at the hotel shortly before 1 p.m. The victims ranged in age from their early teens to their 60s, Brookfield police said.

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out...there's always a "reason" however misguided or twisted the reason might be. Of course, with the shooter dead, unless he left a note, there will be speculation tossed into the mix. Strange....!

[HereSince1628]

90. 5PM update... its 8 dead

Medical staff...not being anymore specific about the number of dead.
its still 5 plus "some."

All the surivors are said to be in guarded condition, several still in surgery.

Families have asked that more specifics NOT be shared...


Police...(Anouncing that the next briefing will be tomorrow morning.)

On arrival of police there were 4 victims and the suspect dead at the scene.

7 other victims were transported from the scence to hospitals in the Milwaukee area. (So no transport to Madison as had been suggested by a tv reporter)

FBI, ATF, US Attorney as well as state, county and

Deaths:
15 year old male dead
17 year old male dead
72 yeard old male
40 year old female
and the male suspect in his 40's

3 additional dead at the Hospital
58 yo male
50 yo male
44 yo male

all the other survivors are considered in serious condition
one of them is a 10 year old girl

so that is 5 at the scene plus 3 which means 8

Suspect was a member of the Church

Is a resident of Waukesha County (the county in which the shooting ocurred) so this is a local killer.

The shooter used a handgun of unspecified type.

All the victims were shot during the meeting in the same room.

No specifics given on events immediately preceding the shooting.

[bobthedrummer]

92. I visited the Living Church of God website, they are an end times

apostolic church based in Charlotte, N.C.

[diamond14]

99. roderick meredith, john ogwyn, richard ames...all bushite fundies (PHOTOS)

roderick meridith from North Carolina, john ogwyn from Texas....these are the bushites, the BASE of bush* support....the 'main' xtian fundies spewing hate and white male supremacy all over America, ON TV evangalical stations near YOU....

from the Living Church of gawwwddd website....
http://www.livingcog.org/


.......... Roderick C. Meredith
John Ogwyn ................... Richard Ames






with FEATURE ARTICLE




with FEATURE ARTICLEs




THE GREAT FALSE PROPHET

Therefore, this second "Beast" of Revelation 13 is a man who appears to be like Christ—coming with a great show of piety, holiness and goodwill. But his message—when he speaks "like a dragon"—will be a cunning and cleverly deceiving message from Satan the Devil!

[stepnw1f]

174. Fanaticism Mental Illness

Just look at the hate they preach. These sickos are terrorists!

[Bouncy Ball]

216. Regarding your top photograph

why do those guys always look so creepy, like if you peeled back their skin just a bit you'd be scared shitless by what you'd find?

I'm being serious and I don't often comment on appearances at all. These guys ALWAYS look seriously creepy to me.

[bobthedrummer]

178. When I posted that yesterday the church's weeky sermon was blank-

someone was scrubbing them. Moreover, the shooter had been upset by a recent Ron Merideth sermon it is being reported here in Wisconsin.

[Maddy McCall]

180. Look down toward the bottom of this thread...

I linked some stuff from the website, including the sermon. Although I can't say if the sermon that is posted has been sanitized or not.

[Lena inRI]

94. More like bad karmic retribution. . .

the ugly underbelly of self-righteous religious freaks.

Time to dust off your copies of Nathaniel Hawthorne's The Scarlet Letter. . .best classic that exposes the hypocrisy of righteous people.

I can't help but make a connection between the evil of Bush's war and this example of religious dysfunction in the heartland of America.
;(

[brentspeak]

97. I knew someone would start the Christian-bashing

Yeah, these people, who we know nothing about, including at least one child, sure got what was coming to them...
:wow:

[QC]

111. We've got some real nasty haters here, don't we?

Sometimes DU is little more than a mirror image of Freak Republik.

[annabanana]

149. This particular crowd (see above)

Do not represent Christianity.

[RetroLounge]

96. We should check the shooters pickup truck for W stickers...

RL

[Blue Gardener]

100. ABC and NBC

Spent maybe 30 seconds each on the shootings. WTF? Isn't this kind of a big story?

[rocktivity]

101. I'm wondering if the shooter was a church official, or wanted to be

Things can get intensely political in such settings, especially if congregation is low-income. Ater a week of being a peon in the workplace (if you're working at all), a lot of these people can go to their church and be a choir manager or a deacon or something, and that's where their self-esteem is. The perp's suicide gives the whole thing an if-I-can't-have-it-nobody-can quality.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Maddy McCall]

105. I just did some research on this church. Looks like this church just split

in January. I mean, the congregation split into two different congregations in January, if I'm reading about the right church. Wonder if it has to do with that?

[rocktivity]

117. That's EXACTLY the kind of thing I had mind

some kind of internal power struggle. Thanks!

:headbang:
rocknation

[bobthedrummer]

106. Brookfield, WI. is home to many professionals and even some corporate

headquarters, it isn't low income and hadn't had a murder in 5 years.

[sarcasmo]

103. Yahoo article says seven total dead and imagine he was a churchgoer.

I find it Ironic that many of these multiple murderers are church going faithful.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20050312/ap_on_re_us/hotel_shooting

[malaise]

107. Well the message from above

is kill, kill, kill and call it spreading democracy. Do it my way or 'shock and awe' is coming your way. It's catching on though.
Was Benny Hinn there by any chance? Saw a report about his miracle rip offs and was ROTFL.

[bobthedrummer]

109. BTK is an evangelical as well as Boy Scout leader

[Retired AF Dem]

125. And it happened in a blue state

who would of thunk it. (sorry catch to much shit living here in AL)

[DARE to HOPE]

108. Living Church of God is NOT a COGIC Church....

Some of you made it into their site while mine was still spinning. I am not surprised at the Bush connections you found.

I lived in Brookfield during high school (B Central 1969)--we had Lutheran churches of all stripes, Roman Catholic, Methodist, and a little Congregational church down by the highway. I remember when the first "microphone and drum" church burst onto the scene, renting a former family movie theater that had fallen to the point of showing X movies before they found this church. The Assembly of God building was eventually built, prominent along the highway (all the traditional churches are poked back within the farm land that all the suburban houses are built upon.) My brother runs his own theatre in downtown Milwaukee and once directed "Jesus Christ Superstar" there--he told me at the time that they had production equipment (lighting and sound) better than most theatres in town.

I am thinking that this man may have lost his family in some way. After all, the Living Church of God Web site sure looks to me like a cult rather than a part of the living Church.

Lord have mercy.

[Blue_Tires]

112. no motive yet?

[Rose Siding]

113. Here's audio of a 5pm press conf

http://www.jsonline.com/multimedia/multiplayer.asp?packageid=717&id=8430

Weird- The local CBS, ABC and Fox affiliates only had variations of the AP report, even tho the NBC affiliate's video earlier made it appear as if a number of reporters were present.

7 dead so far (not sure if that includes the shooter)- 4 at the scene, 3 at the hospital.

Living Church of God- meets regularly at motel. Suspect local resident associated with the church. Handgun. No known motive yet. Sheraton's busy place....hard to pin down who all was present when it happened...suspect showed up during mtg...next press conf at 10am tomorrow...It all happened in same room. No indication anyone else is involved.

[AlCzervik]

119. it's 8 now including the shooter, youngest victim was 12

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/12/wisconsin.shootings/index.html

[diamond14]

120. Video...witness describes massacre "He was depressed for years"

he said there was a SATAN....he knew everyone, we all knew him....he planned to shoot us all....he reloaded....he carried THREE clips....witness dove under a chair and survived....dramatic eye-witness.....describes "mayhem"....killer was sitting at service, stood up, said something, and started shooting...the minister was killed....."I'm asking myself why am I still alive?"


http://www.jsonline.com/multimedia/multiplayer.asp?packageid=717&id=8436

[President Jesus]

114. in the words of Dave Foley...

"Religion is a gateway psychosis."

[RetroLounge]

126. "Religion is a gateway psychosis."

Sad that I have to agree more and more with that sentiment...

RL

[hue]

153. Yes! What is it about religion and violence??? Wars?

[madison2000]

190. wow thats really profound and helpful

Lets apply it to Martin Luther King, shall we?

And lets NOT talk about the need for gun control, since we can blame all the faults of society on religion, and we won't find any of the cures there.

(Deep sarcasm)

[Name removed]

199. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maddy McCall]

123. I THINK I FOUND THE LINK TO *THIS* CHURCH'S WEBSITE!

Here is a photo of someone who witnessed the incident at the Sheraton.



Here is a photo on the church's website. Look at the bearded guy holding the bible and compare him to the guy in the photo above:



This church congregation split into two congretations in November 2004. I think this has to have something to do with what happened today. From the website:

Name Change for the Bereans
In an effort to better and more effectively serve God and facilitate the efforts of individual members to utilize their God-given talents and abilities, members of the church formerly known as Church of God, Berean Fellowship have chosen to move in two separate directions. This decision was made at a special meeting November 27, 2004.

Members who have chosen to move in a different direction will reorganize, focusing on local outreach and in-home Bible studies as they did prior to the establishment of the Church of God, Berean Fellowship. This new group will begin using the Berean Fellowship name once paperwork has been filed and the name becomes available.

The majority of the members chose to remain a part of the original church group. This group unanimously chose a new name at the December 18, 2004 business meeting. They will move forward under the name Congregational Fellowship of God – a Cooperative Network of Believers. They will continue in their current efforts, which include offering weekly Internet broadcasts of their interactive services, where the listening Internet audience can participate, scheduling Friday night guest speakers once a month, and sponsoring a weeklong Passover Celebration. They also plan to work with other church groups to further God’s work. Go to www.thinkgod.org on the web for more information.

The two groups plan to work in cooperation with each other in sponsoring special events and activities.

http://www.congregationalfellowship.org/namechange.htm

[Strangefire]

128. So sad. :(

I wish my first post here was for a different reason. :(

I actually work at a card shop inside Brookfield Square mall, which is right next door to the Sheraton Hotel. All day we've heard helicopters overhead, and in the evening, a couple who are relatives of a young girl who was at the church meeting when the shooting took place (but ducked when the gunman began shooting, and thankfully survived), came in to buy her an encouragement card.

Needless to say, it was a rather somber day here.

[RevCheesehead]

129. I'm glad you posted.

(this is where we usually give you a big welcome to DU - but like you said, it's a somber day.)

I live east of Green Bay, and we're getting precious little information up here. But I know the area well. We used to shop at Brookfield Square all the time when I was a kid.

Is there any more information on the victims? Have they released any names yet?

This is just so very, very sad. :(

[DARE to HOPE]

134. Welcome to DU, strangefire!

I am still in shock, over this madness in good old Brookfield, living where we have all these years, in a part of the Chicago area where you do hear gunfire every so often.

How good of you to be there in your card shop, with all the empathy you've expressed, for your shaken community.

Guns in church? What has happened here? So backwards.

God bless--and again, welcome.

[postulater]

Welcome to the group, Strangefire.

[MadisonProgressive]

131. The guy was in his 40's and living with his mother and sister

that would be enough to trigger a psychotic episode.

[Maddy McCall]

132. Shooter identified.

The shooter is believed to be Terry Ratzmann, who was in his mid-40s and lived with his mother and sister in New Berlin. Neighbors said Ratzmann had been a devoted member of the church.

Police have not yet released the names of any of the victims or the gunman.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wauk/mar05/309035.asp

[Jimbo S]

135. I was in the neighborhood

in a Barnes + Noble a half-mile away. Hites a bit too close to home.

[hue]

155. Was shopping at brookfield square at the time n/t

[biftonnorton]

136. WI Gives No Permits For Carry Of Handguns

so how could this happen?! If only the police could've been there to stop the threat! Dammit!

[proud2BlibKansan]

184. Do you really believe

that if CCW was allowed in WI, then gun owners would carry a gun to church?

[opihimoimoi]

137. Now its KILLER CHURCHES......Holy BAT SHIT,,,WHAT NEXT? KILLER

POLITICIANS...KILLER JUDGES?

What is this BushCo World coming to... Yes, Bush is partially to blame..he fosters death and destruction...just look at him, smirking as he tells of death in the Mid East, bring um on, and Mission Acomplished shit....

Its all them PUBs fault I tell ya...

[Rainscents]

138. I am so sad for the families and my heart goes out to them.

I will pray that they'll be rest in peace.

[moondust]

139. Guns don't kill people.

They only make it really easy to put holes in people.

[proud2BlibKansan]

185. And guns don't die either

people do.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

191. great come back...i will use it in the future when NRA repukes say "guns..

don't kill people"

[Freedom_from_Chains]

140. Man Kills 7, Self at Wis. Church Service

Apparently another self-loathing funddie goes off the deep end.

Mar 12, 7:16 PM (ET)

By RYAN NAKASHIMA

(AP) Two unidentified boys peer out of a window at the Sheraton hotel Saturday, March 12, 2005, in...
Full Image



BROOKFIELD, Wis. (AP) - A gunman opened fire Saturday at a church service being held at a hotel, killing seven people before taking his own life, authorities said.

Officers found four people and the gunman dead when they arrived about 1 p.m. at the Sheraton hotel. Three others died later at a hospital, said Daniel Tushaus, chief of the Brookfield Police Department.

"There is nobody else being sought at this time as a suspect," he said.

The victims were all in the same room at the hotel, Tushaus said. The suspect, a man of about 45 who was armed with a handgun, was affiliated with the church, which had been meeting at the hotel every Saturday morning for four or five years.


(AP) A gurney is brought into a back door at the Sheraton Hotel Saturday, March 12, 2005, in Brookfield,...
Full Image


Tushaus did not identify the victims but gave approximate ages. Two boys ages 15 and 17, a 72-year-old man and a 55-year-old woman died at the hotel. Three men ranging in age from 44 to 58 died later at a hospital.

Four other people were hospitalized in serious condition.

Some hotel guests remained locked in their rooms after police surrounded the building and would not allow anyone to enter or leave.

Karen Suick, 48, said she arrived at the hotel Friday night with 15 players and parents for a hockey tournament.

"One of our hockey dad's two daughters are still in there," she said. "They called his cell phone. They were OK, but they were told to go back to their room. So that's what they did."

At least two church groups were holding meetings in the hotel at the time of the shootings, police said.

Brookfield is a western suburb of Milwaukee.

---

Associated Press writer Carrie Antlfinger in Brookfield and Juliet Williams in Wauwatosa contributed to this report.

[VegasWolf]

141. What can I say! n/t

[lebkuchen]

147. Indeed

[Skip Intro]

142. links

[Freedom_from_Chains]

144. Link

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050313/D88POCR81.html

[Sporadicus]

143. Again with Wisconsin?

Someone posed this question earlier tonight, presumably before this occurred.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

145. Lead and mercury in the water, that stuffs makes you both stupid and

aggressive, what a great combo! I guess we can expect more, as there is little left untainted to drink.

[chaz4jazz]

146. must be the cheese /eom

[Mr_Spock]

148. Geez, this is sad - poor unsuspecting people. Why take advantage

of this tragedy to make it into a political story? If it was, it would be self-evident. If you have to add your own "flavor" to it to make it seem more than it was, then shame on you. We are no better than the lying mass-murdering chimp when we use a tragedy for political points or gain. :(

[annabanana]

150. I'm nominating, because MSM is silent............eom

[madison2000]

159. Heres the link from a Sunday paper

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/H/HOTEL_SHOOTING?SITE=WIMAD&SECTION=HOME

Yes, WI again, but this could happen anywhere in a country where guns are legal.

Yes, in a "fundy" church, but there's no reason to think that religious beliefs had anything to do with this.

Despair, depression, and a gun.

No motive given. We'll probably never know. Seven dead. Four others hospitalized. There were children who saw the whole thing.

Edit:
Neighbors said Ratzmann was a devout churchgoer and avid gardener who built his own greenhouse and shared homegrown vegetables with his neighbors. Shane Colwell, who talked to him regularly, called Ratzmann "so calm and so mellow."

"He brought me over a zucchini that was about foot-and-a-half long," Colwell told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. "We ate it for a week."

Colwell said Ratzmann raised trout and designed a system in which he used trout waste to fertilize his greenhouse plants - including tropical plants and Venus flytraps - then recycled the water back to the fish tank. He also built his own garage.

Robert Blasczyk, another resident of Ratzmann's modest New Berlin neighborhood, said Ratzmann was a drinker, but that he could not believe he might be violent.

"He was the quietest guy in the world, the nicest," said Robert Blasczyk, another resident of Ratzmann's modest New Berlin neighborhood. "I would have never believed this in a million years."

[Flammable Materials]

161. You think people would start suspecting the quiet ones by now. n/t

[diamond14]

163. "He was upset about a sermon by (fundie church leader) roderick meridith"

it doesn't get any clearer than THAT bushite fundie connection....and THAT is why it's being downplayed in all the main stream media...duh, it's not fundie-inspired VIOLENCE....it's just a lone guy gone crazy....and above all, bushites claim no connection to their very own fundie fueled hate/bigotry/violence agenda.....msm keeps removing this very important QUOTE from a long-time church member and eye-witness....



http://www.jsonline.com/news/wauk/mar05/309035.asp

Although there was no known motive, Frazier said the man believed responsible for the shootings, Terry Ratzmann, 44, of New Berlin, was suffering from depression and was upset about a taped sermon he had heard a couple of weeks before by one the church's chief evangelists, Roderick C. Meredith.

"He was always a peculiar guy," she said. "But I never pegged him for a murderer."

[Maddy McCall]

166. Whoa. You have NO WAY OF KNOWING whether or not....

any of the people involved were or are Bush supporters.

And even if they are or were, what in hell does it have to do with the tragedy that happened yesterday. Just because these people were evangelicals, none of them deserved to die yesterday, no matter WHO they supported in the last presidential election.

[diamond14]

168. you want to defend bushite fundies, but I will NOT....

:puke:

[Maddy McCall]

169. I'm not defending anyone. But you have no right to condemn them.

[madison2000]

189. you are pretty scary yourself diamond14

and you paint with a pretty broad brush

[Toots]

162. Guns don't kill people so just shut up and sit down.........

At least it seems as if most of these random things are done by fundie nuts to fundie nuts....Now let the media sensationalize this so Americans will be afraid very very afraid and consume lots.. AMERICA; HOME OF THE COWARD....

[knotuntiedyet]

188. AMERICA; HOME OF THE COWARD

When did this title become valid? Right after WW2 or some later date?

[Maddy McCall]

164. Link: "Spiritual war" sermon possible motive for shooting

http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/mar05/309134.asp

The Living Church of God, a relatively new organization born of a contentious split over religious doctrine, is small but spreads its word through weekly telecasts on 150 stations in several countries.

While there was no known motive for Saturday's slayings at a Brookfield hotel, the man believed responsible had been upset about a taped sermon by the church's spiritual leader, Roderick C. Meredith, according to a fellow congregation member who survived the attack. She reported that the sermon by Meredith, who is seen on many of those broadcasts, dealt with a coming "spiritual war."

The shootings brought the relatively obscure church, its members and its teachings into the spotlight in a tragic way.

The slayings came on Saturday, the church's day of worship as practiced in the time of the Old Testament. Members, who believe the Bible is the literal word of God, were gathering as they do throughout the country in small groups at rented halls, hotels and other locations.

[Maddy McCall]

165. Link to the text of the Spiritual War sermon that angered Ratzmann

http://www.livingcog.org/files/magazines/janfeb2005/personal012005.htm

Some exerpts:

Events prophesied in your Bible are now beginning to occur with increasing frequency. In this Work of the living God, we are able to warn you about what is going to happen soon. We are not talking about decades in the future. We are talking about Bible prophecies that will intensify within the next five to 15 years of your life!

Please understand. We are not "scaremongers." We love our fellow man. So it is our responsibility to warn our peoples—ahead of time—to prepare for the future. Most of our advice is spiritual in nature. However, in this editorial I want to give you some common sense advice involving your physical survival and your financial well-being.

snip/

So we must each examine our own situation to determine what action we should take. Are we living in a low-lying coastal area where we may be in danger at a time of increasing hurricanes, tsunamis or similar natural disasters? Do we have at least a week’s supply of emergency food and water, flashlight batteries, a first-aid kit, a battery-powered radio, prescription medications and other essential items? Have we read the instructions from our nation or region about how to prepare for such emergencies as hurricanes, earthquakes or terrorists attacks?

I also want to strongly encourage our subscribers—especially the Americans—to prepare for a financial emergency that may strike our nation within a very few years. Although I am certainly not a financial expert, I do have access to many very reliable news sources. Right now, more and more news reports are warning of an impending financial collapse that may devastate the United States within the next several years!

snip/

If you truly believe in the living God and in His inspired word, you will do your part to support His Work even in trying times. Then the Creator will certainly "be there" when you desperately need Him. But even if you do not yet understand this spiritual matter, be sure to be aware of what is going to happen physically, and take immediate steps to begin putting your own financial house in order. You owe it to your family and yourself!

—Roderick C. Meredith


(Much more at the link)

[diamond14]

167. "We are not scaremongers" "We love our fellow MAN"....

from the Living Church of God website....
http://www.livingcog.org /











THE GREAT FALSE PROPHET

Therefore, this second "Beast" of Revelation 13 is a man who appears to be like Christ—coming with a great show of piety, holiness and goodwill. But his message—when he speaks "like a dragon"—will be a cunning and cleverly deceiving message from Satan the Devil!

[Maddy McCall]

171. Link: "How would Jesus vote for president?" article (Not Bush, Not Kerry)

Snippet from article by Meredith on LCOG participation in elections:

What would Jesus do in this election year in the United States? He would be so busy proclaiming the good news of the soon-coming kingdom of God that He would have no time—and no interest—in politicking, voting or taking part in any groups pressuring to clean up Satan’s world. For He would know that—although often well-meaning—human attempts to save this world are doomed to failure because they are under Satan’s sway and are part of his system which God Himself calls "Babylon" (Revelation 14:8).

The mission and calling of all true Christians is to help prepare the way—as advance emissaries—for the kingdom of God, the literal government that the Living Jesus Christ will soon set up. It will replace all the misguided human governments of this earth. "Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!’" (Revelation 11:15).

May God speed that day!



http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bin/tw/tw-mag.cgi?category=Magazine31&item=1104253497

[Zgrrl]

170. Anti-depressant drugs?

I'm just wondering if there is any info yet published that his individual may have been taking any sort of anti-depressant drug? I haven't seen any, I'm just asking.

No matter how those who were killed by this man voted in the last election, they didn't deserve this, especially not the two children.

- Zgrrl

[Maddy McCall]

173. I agree, especially on your latter point.

[stepnw1f]

175. Taking or Not Taking?

Taking anti-depressants does not make one a killer. I'm pretty sure he was mentally ill to begin with. Only insanity could motivate one to do what he had done.

[Maddy McCall]

176. According to news reports, he had just been notified that he was losing...

his job.

If you look at the sermon two weeks ago, when he walked out, it was about paying off debt and saving money to make it through the impending financial crisis in the US.

I think, taking the two into account, he thought of himself as some kind of failure by church doctrine standards. That's what it seems like to me, anyway.

[stepnw1f]

177. That's Horrible

I hope this Church does not preach this kind of victimization. If so this Church is part of the problem.

[Maddy McCall]

181. Must-read Link: "Truth about LCOG: Child molestation & Pedophilia"

RCM's slow-rolling wheels of "justice" grind the innocent
Gavin Rumney's online e-zine, called Ambassador Watch, quoted the following posting on the UCGia Yahoo group about Roderick C. Meredith (RCM) covering up ministerial abuse:

"I was in a church which fell apart. It fell apart because we had a host put over us to give sermons, counsel, etc. He used to be a minister. But we found out he had a 20 year history of sexual misconduct, which included accusations of rape and child molestation. When people in the church wrote to the ministers they were threatened to be kicked out. Turning this person into the authorities was discouraged."

"This person disfellowshipped half of our congregation by the time he was through. Before he was finally disfellowshipped, 22 different families and individuals issued statements which were mailed to district attorneys in all of the counties the incidents happened in. I asked the presiding evangelist why he put this person there, when he told me he knew of his history in WCG. He told me because his wife told him on the phone he had repented."

"This was Roderick Meredith. This was in the Global Church of God. So... why would the wife of this individual stay so long with her husband had several affairs and molested several children? Who knows. Maybe denial. This host never went to jail, because the actions were covered up by the ministry and if anyone turned to the authorities they were told they would be kicked out."

"So my point is, I am not judging whether or not Mr. Armstrong did the things he was accused of. I was not there. But I would like to point out how easy it would be for HWA or any minister to do things like that and never be held accountable. And lastly, Roderick Meredith is not a very credible source in this accusation, since he has protected people that did much worse than what HWA was accused of."

It is bad enough that predators can sneak into churches without anyone knowing about it. However, when a church's head honcho knowingly brings them in, promotes them, and protects them--while allowing their victims to be threatened not to tell the truth about them or warn anyone else--the situation is indeed bad. New converts are led to believe that any problems in the church are just "imagined" and, even if not, can be resolved easily as long as they have a "good attitude." They are given no idea just how bad the situation in the so-called Churches of God (COGs) can really be.

(Much more at this link: http://truth.fateback.com/lcg2.html and http://truth.fateback.com/lcg.html )

This really sounds like a troubled church with loads of problems.

[Maddy McCall]

182. Link: Victims names released on religious website.

Gunman acted alone
Besides Ratzmann, four of the victims died at the hotel. According to several church members, they were:


James Gregory, 17, of Gurnee, Ill., son of the church's pastor.


Harold Diekmeier, 74, of Delafield.


Gloria Critari, 55, of Cudahy.


Bart Oliver, 15, of Waukesha.

Three others died at Froedtert Memorial Lutheran Hospital.

According to church members, those victims were:


Randy L. Gregory, 50, of Gurnee, Ill., the regional pastor of the Living Church of God.


Richard Reeves, 58, of Cudahy.


A 44-year-old man from Hartford.

Three survivors are females, ages 10, 20 and 52. The fourth is a 20-year-old-man.

More at http://www.thejournal.org/lcgshts/lcgshoot.html

[Name removed]

186. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GiovanniC]

217. Moron.

[DARE to HOPE]

193. "Troubled church?" To say the least...

It caught my memory when my husband read out of the Chicago Sun-Times today the name Worldwide Church of God as the ancestor of this Living Church of God. I remember that in the midst of their crisis that a group of LCMS Lutherans had ministered to a group at the top, and showed them the Gospel in the Bible, and brought them into the mainstream of Christian faith.

Well, LCMS has had its own problems with schisms and crazy people, but it seems the ones who were "left behind" in this "dog eat dog" group rather took the cake.

To see what they call "The Plain Truth about Roderick C. Meredith and the Living Church of God" see http://www.ambassadorwatch.co.nz/meredith.htm. It is quite an eyefull, and explains a LOT.

To see "Dr. Meredith's" rebuttal, see http://members.aol.com/drthiel/rcm.htm rebuttal. He even talks about his moderation from his "military influenced" idea of church discipline to the idea of "servant leadership."

I know a lot of Lutherans who called each other names like "baby killers" since the 1970's--thank God there were no guns!

[truthpusher]

194. Update: Church Shooter Said Upset Over Sermon

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050313/D88QC5200.html

Church Shooter Said Upset Over Sermon
-------------------------------------
Mar 13, 5:45 PM (ET)
By JULIET WILLIAMS and RYAN NAKASHIMA
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BROOKFIELD, Wis. (AP) - The man who fatally shot seven people during a quiet church service before turning the gun on himself was on the verge of losing his job and upset over a sermon he heard two weeks ago, investigators said Sunday.

Terry Ratzmann left no suicide note and gave no explanation for the killings during Saturday's weekly meeting at a suburban Milwaukee hotel. It was unclear what specifically upset him, but Ratzmann was a member of the Living Church of God, a denomination whose leader recently prophesied that end times are near.

(snip)

Ratzmann regularly attended the gatherings at the Sheraton each Saturday - the church group did not have a building of its own. But Frazier said Ratzmann walked out of a recent sermon "sort of in a huff."

"Something that the minister said he was upset about. I'm not quite sure what exactly," she said.

complete story: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050313/D88QC5200.html

[KG]

195. a wack-o with a gun

and 7 more sacrifices on the alter of gun rights.

[Mairead]

196. Would it have been better had he used a petrol bomb? (nt)

[AnnInLa]

197. Perhaps he was doing them and himself a favor

sorta hurrying-up the "end time." Poor, brainwashed idiots.

[VegasWolf]

198. My guess, it's a lot more to do with losing job and no money than Jeebus!

[Mark E. Smith]

200. AP: Church Gunman Said Upset Over Sermon

BROOKFIELD, Wis - The man who fatally shot seven people during a quiet church service before turning the gun on himself was on the verge of losing his job and upset over a sermon he heard two weeks ago, investigators said Sunday.

Terry Ratzmann, 44, left no suicide note and gave no explanation for the killings during Saturday's weekly meeting at a suburban Milwaukee hotel. It is unclear what specifically upset him, but ratzmann was a member of the Living Church of God, a denomination whose leader recently prophesied that end times are near.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050314/ap_on_re_us/hotel_shooting

[Straight Shooter]

201. Terry Ratzmann: judge, jury, and executioner

How dare he play God and take those lives.

[dave502d]

202. Your right.n/t

[Igel]

203. I feel sorry for Ratzmann and his victims. n/t

[mutus_frutex]

205. Why feel sorry for him?

Well, besides the fact that he lost his jobs, maybe one should feel sorry that he was brainwashed into believing the crap that churches spew. That's it.

[Igel]

208. Because I typically feel sorry for people that have suffered,

especially if it's driven them over the edge and made others suffer.

Some people in churches like this need help; the churches and the support network they provide sometimes help them hold it all together and even get past their problems. But sometimes a person's problems interact badly with the beliefs they've chosen or with the people involved, or are beyond what the support network can provide. I don't know why Ratzmann did what he did, I wish he hadn't, and I feel sorry for him. I can't sit back and say, "Serves the losers right" any more than I do when a postal employee goes postal, some gangbangers off each other, or a SISMI agent gets offed in a war zone.

The people that were there are already working on forgiving him and trying to understand him. That's compassion. I consider that to be a progressive virtue.

Sorry, I'm not drowning in cynicism today.

[xultar]

204. Seems to me that the sermon was right...the end of times were near

know what I'm a sayin? :shrug:

[RaleighNCDUer]

206. The fruits of a sick religion.

A thousand years ago we saw the same stuff being spewed. The end time was upon us -- and the world went crazy. From a generation before the millennium to two centuries after it, there was an explosion of cults and schisms, and a series of crusades that culminated with the black death killing 30% of Europe's population.

We will see more and more of this.





























5

[Fuzz]

207. Cue the spooky music

I agree with you and as evidence of this, I cut and paste a post I just read on another 'conservative' board.

*********Begin cut n' paste here*************

I know this is probably going to bring some laughs from a few but I seriously believe in the battle between good and evil. On the spiritual level. It is evil that causes crimes like this horrible one, the Atlanta Courtroom Killer/Nichols, BTK, the rash of teachers involved with students, the high level of crimes by those in world leading positions, and etc. The evil "spirit" twists people's minds to perform evil acts, just as God guides us to do good. So much is happening lately that has been influenced by the dark side, the evil "spirit."

Most of us here, I assume, are strong supporters of President Bush, and many feel he is a man of principle and very spiritual. He is a good person, who surrounds himself with good people, and who openly admits to his relationship with God. He has fought evil, and brought a lot of good to the world again. If one believes in God, as our great President does, one must also accept that there is a force of Evil, and that evil is struggling for control. Call it the devil, whatever.

When evil is threatened, it becomes heightened to fight for survival. All these crimes, in our homes, neighborhoods, schools...teachers, terrorists, political leaders, etc...all this dark "stuff" surfacing - this is evil fighting back.

Now I am not an every Sunday church goer, but I have strong beliefs and faith. I remember the lessons I was taught, and that we must always be watchful of the power of evil. It disguises itself in many ways - sometimes in the persona of national leaders, ala Clinton, who so many thought and still think is a good person, sometimes in massive movements like the campaigns to take "God" out of our country's documents, buildings, schools. Like pro-choice movements, people who favor "mercy killing," gay marriages, etc. And sometimes in lifestyles of groups like the wild lives of the Hollywood bunch who have flaunted morality in the face of believers.

These people can rationalize their positions in grandiose, intellectual ways, and sound very convincing and considerate of others' difficulties. But, in effect, their desires are to drive us away from God and our belief and faith in His laws.

We must be of this world, and at the same time, be aware of the spiritual world. Prayer is our strongest ally, and best hope at times like these, as we struggle to keep from falling under the spell of, or control of evil people. The battle is real, we must recognize it is going on.


*********End cut n' paste here***********

[Ganja Ninja]

212. This is what you get when insanity becomes an acceptable ...

normal way of life. People who's religion is centered on the end times prophecies are nuts. They feed on each others insanity. Eventually you end up with something like this or a Jonestown. This is what scares me most about the whole new conservatism. There's a large portion of it made up of people that are focused on the end coming and there's no need to worry about a future if the rapture is coming next week.

[tom_paine]

213. I think this escalation is the natural response of an enslaved people

particularly a people, like the Imperial Subjects of Amerika, subjected to confusion and frustrtaion inducing propaganda that leaves us helpless and powerless to even identify the source of our troubles (the LEADER and the PARTY, as is true for our fellow Third World Nations).

I expect this to continue and escalate as the Busheviks finish reducing the Imperial Amerikan Subjects to wholly ignorant, completely propagandized, defrauded, weak and powerless Imperial Serfs as exists in other Third World nations not as wealthy and without the traiditons of a Republic behind THEIR Thiord World Nation.

[slackmaster]

218. Finally, a mucker someone described as "peculiar"

"He was always a peculiar guy," she said. "But I never pegged him for a murderer."

Usually they're described as quiet people who keep to themselves.