NYC Health Officials Find New, Virulent HIV Strain

[seriousstan]

Feb. 11 (Bloomberg) -- New York City doctors have discovered a previously unseen strain of HIV, which appears to be resistant to three of the four types of anti-viral drugs that combat the disease, and progresses from infection to full-blown AIDS in two or three months, the health department said.

``We've identified this strain of HIV that is difficult or impossible to treat and which appears to progress rapidly to AIDS,'' said New York City Health Commissioner Thomas Frieden.

Frieden said the case, diagnosed in a man in his mid-40s who reported multiple male sex partners and unprotected anal sex -- often while using the drug crystal methamphetamine -- was ``extremely concerning and a wake-up call.''

Antonio Urbina, medical director of HIV education and training at St. Vincent's Catholic Medical Center, site one of Manhattan's largest AIDS clinics, said at a news conference that the patient's use of crystal methamphetamine shows that the drug ``continues to play a significant role in facilitating the transmission of HIV.''

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=71000001&refer=&sid=aDEfEZh52ykY

[liberalpragmatist]

1. Scary shit

nt

[BR_Parkway]

2. So, with the current wingnutz "mandate", do we all have to hear this

is God's latest punishment since we won't attend/fund Exodus and those other crank "we'll cure you from being gay" programs?

[renaissanceguy]

118. They believe "AIDS Cures Fags."

So of course, people like Fred Phelps are jumping for joy.

I don't usually wish death upon anyone, but I sure hope he gets his someday.

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.14744291

[JohnOneillsMemory]

126. PSY OPS ALERT: (posting again further upstream because this is IMPORTANT)

'Experts' dispute there being any case at all when you actually READ the article. This is really meant to make Howard Dean and the liberal Dems equal a scary ugly death in the minds of too many Americans.

>snip<
"Some AIDS specialists outside New York City expressed skepticism about the alarm, believing that it might be an isolated case related to the patient's immune system."
>snip<
Dr. Robert C. Gallo, a co-discoverer of the AIDS virus and director of the Institute of Human Virology at the University of Maryland, was very skeptical of yesterday's announcement.

"My guess is that this is much ado about nothing," he said. "Though it's prudent to follow it, I don't think it's necessary to issue a warning or alert the press."
>snip<
Dr. John P. Moore, an AIDS researcher at Cornell University's Medical School, agreed.

"If there was a cluster of these, that would be different," he said. "But I wouldn't get bent out of shape about what is literally an anecdotal case right now."
>snip<
------------------------------------------------

TIMING IS EVERYTHING IN PROPAGANDA (that's ALL of the mainstream media).

1) Howard Dean elected DNC chairman +
2) SF mayor Newsom holds large celebration of gay marriage couples +
3) Scary new AIDS from drug-addled, promiscuous, anal-sex, CITY guy
= 'Urban Dems and liberals will kill us all with their dangerous immoral lifestyles and policies.

I'm dismayed to see that DU-ers DON'T READ THE ARTICLES OR CONNECT THE DOTS IN THE BIG STORY-

PROPAGANDA-SUPPORTED FASCISM USES FEAR OF SEX TO DEMONIZE LIBERALS.

DU-ers chase every fucking metal rabbit like hounds when the propaganda matrix launches it around the public arena. Don't fall into the trap.

Look at the emotional keywords and how they play in power politics. This is the nasty science of Perception Management used to steer public opinion in favor of the rich and powerful who own our government.

ALL the mainstream media have been CIA/White House-steered since the 1940s during WWII. Educate yourself and see how emotional buttons are played like keys on the Mighty Wurlitzer of 'public opinion.'

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MOCK/mockingbird.html
(Operation Mockingbird: The Subversion of the Free Press by the CIA)

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-overclass.html
(The Origins of the Overclass)

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ST/ST.html
(The Secret Team: CIA and its Allies In Control of the US and World)

http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/index_fr.html?content=articles/doors_of_perception.html
(Why Americans Will Believe Almost Anything)

So why are 'conservatives' and fundies so obsessed with our sex lives?
Because unregulated pleasure in our own bodies is seen as a threat to PSYCHOLOGICAL CONTROL which demands shame, guilt, and fear.

http://www.counterpunch.org/davis01082005.html
This article called 'The Psychology of Christian Fundamentalism' closely examines the 5 key aspects that formulate this dangerous mindset. Look closely at #5-Sexual Roots of the Fundamentalist Psyche.
It is a very deep and thorough essay so here is an excerpt:

>snip<

"The body has become the scene of ethical instruction. All natural functions are turned into matters of intense preoccupation. All innocent curiosities nipped in the bud. Spontaneity itself becomes a source of inhibition. The reign of the literal is born. That which most intimately attaches us to life becomes the thing upon which a ceaseless attack is waged.

All natural instincts must become evidence that the only way to experience the body is as a site of sinful desires. Embodiment itself must become something one hates and fears, a condition in which something evil and disgusting is always at work. Everything that desire opens up in the subject must be turned back against itself.

Sin, shame, and guilt must come to define the relationship that the subject lives to itself.

>>>>>>>>The goal of fundamentalist child-rearing is to create a subject preoccupied with waging war on itself, with battling against its own desires under the gaze of a judgmental, punitive super-ego."<<<<<<<<

>snip<

People, this is the old divide-and-conquer strategy used to disable either one person or an entire nation with the bullshit 'Red vs. Blue' sports team analogy that is infecting our public discourse.

Don't fall into this mindset and recognize the tactic when you see it.

[pandemic_1918]

129. Nonsense

The timing was based on the test results. Its the virus and its a recombinant and its not political

http://news.google.com/news?q=hiv%203-dcr%20resistance&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wn

[d.l.Green]

133. You're right it's not political, that's not what was said...

but it is part of an agenda. I don't know if I would define it as "psy-ops", but a lot of what was said is true. I think I've posted this elsewhere in this thread but the gay population was becoming enormously successful in "coming out" of its shell and celebrating a newly found freedom in the 70's. A combination of what appeared to be a new disease showed up as a result of mixing drugs, alcohol and general physical abuse of the body AND the inherent unaddressed guilt associated with such celebrating after a lifetime of supression. Here was a population that was vulnerable both mentally and physically. And the powers that be were not happy with their success.

Look at the people who defined this "disease" and if you follow the money, it's pretty obvious...

[pandemic_1918]

141. More Nonsense

It's the virus not a big conspiracy or hidden agenda. The new HIV kills and kills quickly. It was announced when the test results were in. It has nothing to do with an imaginary timetable of agenda.

Try google. You can create any story you want using 1 in a million chances. Happens on the internet all of the time. Its just nonsense (but is cited more often because Google creates more coincidences which become urban legends (or just more nonsense).

[Quakerfriend]

3. Our gov't has intentionally downplayed the significance of the

virus over the years. The primary characteristic of a retrovirus is it's ability to CHANGE. This new virulent strain is not surprising.

Read "Full Disclosure" By Dr. Gary Glum to learn to the story of the creation of the AIDS virus by US gov't. Very plausible. Very sad.

[ChemEng]

35. my tin foil hat is firmly on my head...n/t

[Blue_State_Elitist]

67. Anything that affects the gay community

is generally overlooked by the government.

[saigon68]

76. EXCEPT THE INEVITABLE CONCENTRATION CAMPS

Which will be used to house these societal Pariahs.

And keep them away from Children and "Good" Christians </heavy heavy SARCASM>

GAY MEN BEWARE OF ASHCROFT'S ANGELS IN THE FUTURE (The new FBI force to be created by Gonzales, to round up the deviants )

[vajraroshana]

4. sounds like a bit of hype

"We're talking about a single case" ...a single case of a mid-40s promiscuous non-condom using meth addict. He was most likely already severly immune-compromised before aquiring hiv.

[Ariana Celeste]

6. For real.

Regular methamphetamine use just about kills your immune system.

[Liberal Veteran]

8. True, but it doesn't confer multi-drug resistance to HIV.

Someone or someone's out there exposing people to multi-drug resistant strains of the virus by engaging in unsafe activity even though they likely know they are HIV positive.

The simple fact is that in the absence of drug therapy in people who have developed resistance, the predominant viral strain in the body reverts to non-resistant wild-type virus within three months.

One can infer from that, that someone was was engaging in unsafe sexual behavior with full knowledge they were HIV+.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

87. That's very true

it's an STD, so to assume only one person has it is speculative on their part, as it takes two people to have sex. Probably just trying to hush hush danger again.

[NNguyenMD]

158. Strains can cross and recombine DNA into a potentially more virulent

strains. If he's had multiple infections from partners carrying different strains, it is very possible for the strains to recombine into a more aggressive virus. Its not very difficult for viruses to achieve this, all microorganisms have mechanisms of genetic recombination.

[pandemic_1918]

166. Recombination

Viruses recombine frequently. The recombination was probably before the NYC patient was infected because there are two other isolates that pre-date his infection

http://www.recombinomics.com/News/02160501/Novel_3DCR_HIV_Recombinant.html

[pandemic_1918]

124. It's the VIRUS, not the Host

The is no doubt that it is the HIV and not the host that is novel. The virus is probably a recombinant. ViroLogic released quite a bit of data this morning. Crystal Meth is just media hype

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=hiv+3-dcr+resistance

[pandemic_1918]

153. Three Cases with the Same Virus

There are now three cases with the same virus. Two in NYC (partners) and one in San Diego. If there is no link between San Diego and NYC then virus appeared at about the same time (last fall) on both US coasts

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&tab=nn&ie=UTF-8&q=hiv+resistance+dcr

[LondonAmerican]

157. also boston and trinidad nt.

[Liberal Veteran]

7. Yes, but you need to think about the bigger picture.

That means that someone who absolutely without a doubt knows they are HIV positive and is engaging in unsafe sex.

HIV didn't magically mutate on it's own to become resistant to all NNRTI, NRTI, and PI drugs. That ONLY happens when someone is on antiviral therapy that is not completely effective and allows for viral breakthough.

[beyurslf]

9. I wouldn't call it hype. How many people do you think he had sex with in

the past 20 months while infected? 1 per weekend? That's almost 100 people. They could all have this strain of the virus. If they each had unprotected sex with one person each weekend....

The numbers grow staggering very quickly. It took the government 5 years to even admit HIV?AIDS existed (and they called it GRID then). How many gay men died while the governemt feigned ignorance? How many will die this time while we blame it on drugs and say they deserved it?

[happynewyear]

17. you've got it alright

I remember when AIDS first appeared. A good friend of mine died in 1981, long before they had discovered what caused AIDS. In the meantime, the disease was being spread all over the place being the methods of transmission were still unknown.

They know how this is transmitted. Whether the guy was on drugs or not is almost irrelevant. The fact is he had the infection, apparently knew it and opted to proceed on anyway.

It almost reminds me of the infamous Canadian steward for the airlines that had numerous contacts knowing he had AIDS. And, no, I don't believe that this airline steward was on drugs if my memory is correct.

How many will die? How many deaths will be blamed on drugs rather than this treacherous strain of HIV? I hope this is not the beginning of another cult of ignorance surrounding a FATAL disease.

:kick:

[beyurslf]

21. I remember the guy you are talking about. They called him Patient Zero in

"And the band played on." He was the one the said helped to spread it from coast to coast and across the ocean.

[barb162]

23. yeah he was an airline steward as I recall

[happynewyear]

32. yes that was him alright

The thing is, AIDS was around in the late 1970s in San Francisco. I remember the friend I reference in my prior post telling me of a "gay cancer" that was going around at that time. Everyone thought him to be an alarmist. However, as we have learned, he was not an alarmist - in fact he is now dead. He died in Jan. 1981 and the death record on him says he was 10 years younger than he actually was. :wtf:

By the time this airline steward emerged into the scene, AIDS was already very widespread. If I remember right, he did not die until sometime after 1985 I believe.

I have read the book "The Band Played On". While I felt it accurately described the epidemic to a point, it was a bit lean on facts - like the fact that AIDS was around in the late 1970s, not something that emerged in the early 1980s. I know for a fact this is not the case.

In any event, I've seen many persons die from this disease and many were not gay men. I knew of a doctor with a whole family that became infected because they were hemophiliacs, a woman with a newborn child and numerous men besides.

I would certainly not take this "warning" lightly. This strain of HIV is probably all over the place, that is what I tend to think after having lived through the era of when no one knew what AIDS was nor what caused it. Very sad times they were. :(

[d.l.Green]

36. You've got to be joking! You actually believe that urban myth?

And what ever happened to the "epidemic" that was going to infiltrate the population? If the theory of it spreading and completely attributable to sex (as opposed to the actual reason, the drugs) had any inkling of truth to it then how does the gay population continue to survive? You really believe that the percentage that gets "it" is the only portion of the gay population that doesn't practice "safe sex"? You really believe that "safe sex" is 100% successful for all those who do practice it? Oh, and you really believe that one case, as in this recent case, is cause for any alarm? Geez, when I have questioned it, I have been told that my experience is inconsequential to my conclusions, yet the argument insisting this exists is basing these wild presumptions on single cases?

[girl gone mad]

69. Appareantly, people still believe it.

There waws no Patient Zero, but people haven't bothered to educate themselves on the facts ove rthe past decade.

I think the question to ask is why this story is being released right now.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

90. Well..

Whether it sounds unlikely or not doesn't make it fact or fiction. I know bill clinton openly apologized for something, to the african american community, on the topic of being tested on for something or other which the government denied for years.

It's plausible that the real story was broken down by conspiracy theorists and those trying to discredit it until the story was a mutant shell of its former self. It's foolish to discredit based on something not seeming plausible though, or without fact. Because we haven't found it yet doesn't make it not true, of course it doesn't mean we should wildly act (take the iraq war), but we should never leave room for error by closing our minds to a possibility. I for one thought that it was implausible our current president would be re-elected. I promptly learned to not assume based on what seems improbable.

as for everyone having a disease, who says it isn't time released? I know of viruses that implant themselves and don't show up for a period of time (warts, for instance. Though it's a mild case and only lasts for so long, it is something hidden that only shows itself later on). I wouldn't say it's likely, but I wouldn't say it's impossible either.

[d.l.Green]

94. Exactly, "we should never leave room for error by closing our minds"...

"to (the) possibility" that it may or may not exist. And yes, it doesn't mean we should act wildly- like taking extremely toxic drug cocktails that have no meaningful double blind long term clinical trials based on these mixtures, let alone the individual drugs. And yes, there may be something that we don't know yet about this, but it seems the "experts" know plenty enough to guess how long this "virus" takes to affect us and enough to think they can willy-nilly try all kinds of drug cocktails on people who have trusted this system blindly and ignorantly. But to continue to believe this crap when it hasn't even been proven is no reason at all to follow a bunch of hunches and theories that are more dangerous than concentrating on educating people on the advantages of a healthy diet, plenty of exercise and a positive outlook on life. That has NEVER been part of "aids/hiv" counseling and it just adds to the ludicrousness of it all.

[hedgehog]

98. The reason there was no double blind testing was the

pressure from some quarters to release drugs immediately. At the time there was no treatment, so people didn't want to wait for the tests. Given how poorly documented the natural progress of AIDS was at the time, I've often wondered how much good and how much harm was done. Mercury was once widely used to treat syphilis to the extent that now some are unsure which observed symptoms were from the disease and which were from mercury poisoning.

[bitchkitty]

79. Gaetan Dugas - patient zero. n/t

[hedgehog]

102. I'm not sure he was really patient Zero, but apparently

someone documented his role is spreading it in the early days. Other sources have supposedly found isolated cases of AIDS back into the 50's ( based on testing of old tissue samples.) The difference was that the infections dead ended with one person instead of being spread through a network of contacts.

[LondonAmerican]

60. When people do tina

they aren't having sex with one poerson per weekend. Guys who like PNP (party and play) typically will go through at least a dozen guys in a single 3-day binge - no sleep, lots of small tears, no condoms - a perfect environment for evolving a very nasty virus of this sort.

Tina is nasty and leads people to do stupid things. It's decimated the gay communities in the USA - NYC, Miami, LA, etc., have all been hit hard by crystal. That link between crystal/tina and unsafe bingeing needs to be brought out.

For more information, check outr this great resource http://www.lifeormeth.com (done by a good mate of mine!)

[AgadorSparticus]

71. that website just shocked the hell out of me. but it did a great job

in explaining what this drug is and its horrific effects. your friend did a great job, btw. excellent site. reading it was like glimpsing into hell. i am in shock. i guess it is true that we live in our own separate universes and to ocasionally get glimpses into something as devasting as that, is quite sobering.

i am amazed that something as epidemic as this is not addressed more aggressively. i hope the gay community really steps up to the plate on this. i cannot fathom hiv+ people targeting nonpositives in order to perpetuate the disease. what madness. it blows my mind that someone is having sex for 6 hrs nonstop and still obsess about it. they have crossed that line into bestiality. and the zombie like descriptions are so deeply sad.

how can life be so horrible that people do this to themselves? wow. sorry if i'm rambling. i'm still in shock over all this...

[renaissanceguy]

119. Better yet...

what about straight, black women, who have the highest cases of HIV/AIDS? It's sad that so many people out there still think it's a "gay" disease.

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.14744291

[xpunkisneatx]

151. Thank god someone mentioned this...

Most people don't know that the largest rising group of people with new cases of HIV are straight black women. I got into an argument with a very religious woman last week who told me AIDS was a "gay disease", and after I told her that statistic she ate her words. People need to educate themselves.

[LisaL]

12. He obviously got it from someone-and they obviously

did genetic tests on it. And it's a more aggressive form of virus.

[nodehopper]

20. right, but that has nothing to do with the actual chemical structure

of the virus or its resistance to medicines.

[VegasWolf]

34. It is easy enough to prove if it is a different or modified strian.

[uppityperson]

37. Not nec an addict, infection to full blown AIDS in months

The problem is that viruses mutate and here's one that did. It went from somewhat contollable to barely controllable at all, from years to months to get from infection to full-blown AIDS.

He has this bad fast HIV strain which may have been passed on from someone else or to someone else so it may be out there waiting to show up more. Or at least it shows that the HIV is mutating to nastier forms.

[pandemic_1918]

80. Symptoms After One Month

He may have been compromised, but he developed symptoms a month after exposure and full blown AIDS a couple of months later. If its due to virulence, AIDS will get a lot of attention and focus will be on vaccines because anti-virals will quickly lose effectiveness

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=hiv+dcr+classes

[JohnOneillsMemory]

125. PSY OPS ALERT: Read article...this is 'aluminum tubes for WMD' yet again!

'Experts' dispute there being any case at all when you actually READ the article. This is really meant to make Howard Dean and the liberal Dems equal a scary ugly death in the minds of too many Americans.

>snip<
"Some AIDS specialists outside New York City expressed skepticism about the alarm, believing that it might be an isolated case related to the patient's immune system."
>snip<
Dr. Robert C. Gallo, a co-discoverer of the AIDS virus and director of the Institute of Human Virology at the University of Maryland, was very skeptical of yesterday's announcement.

"My guess is that this is much ado about nothing," he said. "Though it's prudent to follow it, I don't think it's necessary to issue a warning or alert the press."
>snip<
Dr. John P. Moore, an AIDS researcher at Cornell University's Medical School, agreed.

"If there was a cluster of these, that would be different," he said. "But I wouldn't get bent out of shape about what is literally an anecdotal case right now."
>snip<
------------------------------------------------

TIMING IS EVERYTHING IN PROPAGANDA (that's ALL of the mainstream media).

1) Howard Dean elected DNC chairman +
2) SF mayor Newsom holds large celebration of gay marriage couples +
3) Scary new AIDS from drug-addled, promiscuous, anal-sex, CITY guy
= 'Urban Dems and liberals will kill us all with their dangerous immoral lifestyles and policies.

I'm dismayed to see that DU-ers DON'T READ THE ARTICLES OR CONNECT THE DOTS IN THE BIG STORY-

PROPAGANDA-SUPPORTED FASCISM USES FEAR OF SEX TO DEMONIZE LIBERALS.

DU-ers chase every fucking metal rabbit like hounds when the propaganda matrix launches it around the public arena. Don't fall into the trap.

Look at the emotional keywords and how they play in power politics. This is the nasty science of Perception Management used to steer public opinion in favor of the rich and powerful who own our government.

ALL the mainstream media have been CIA/White House-steered since the 1940s during WWII. Educate yourself and see how emotional buttons are played like keys on the Mighty Wurlitzer of 'public opinion.'

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MOCK/mockingbird.html
(Operation Mockingbird: The Subversion of the Free Press by the CIA)

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-overclass.html
(The Origins of the Overclass)

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ST/ST.html
(The Secret Team: CIA and its Allies In Control of the US and World)

http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/index_fr.html?content=articles/doors_of_perception.html
(Why Americans Will Believe Almost Anything)

So why are 'conservatives' and fundies so obsessed with our sex lives?
Because unregulated pleasure in our own bodies is seen as a threat to PSYCHOLOGICAL CONTROL which demands shame, guilt, and fear.

http://www.counterpunch.org/davis01082005.html
This article called 'The Psychology of Christian Fundamentalism' closely examines the 5 key aspects that formulate this dangerous mindset. Look closely at #5-Sexual Roots of the Fundamentalist Psyche.
It is a very deep and thorough essay so here is an excerpt:

>snip<

"The body has become the scene of ethical instruction. All natural functions are turned into matters of intense preoccupation. All innocent curiosities nipped in the bud. Spontaneity itself becomes a source of inhibition. The reign of the literal is born. That which most intimately attaches us to life becomes the thing upon which a ceaseless attack is waged.

All natural instincts must become evidence that the only way to experience the body is as a site of sinful desires. Embodiment itself must become something one hates and fears, a condition in which something evil and disgusting is always at work. Everything that desire opens up in the subject must be turned back against itself.

Sin, shame, and guilt must come to define the relationship that the subject lives to itself.

>>>>>>>>The goal of fundamentalist child-rearing is to create a subject preoccupied with waging war on itself, with battling against its own desires under the gaze of a judgmental, punitive super-ego."<<<<<<<<

>snip<

People, this is the old divide-and-conquer strategy used to disable either one person or an entire nation with the bullshit 'Red vs. Blue' sports team analogy that is infecting our public discourse.

Don't fall into this mindset and recognize the tactic when you see it.

[Liberal Veteran]

5. You know...for some reason this just pisses me off!

Geez people!

Safer sex is NOT complicated.

Teach it. Preach it. Practice it.

And quite honestly, I am more than a little pissed off at people who are spreading resistant strains of the virus.

And before you jump on me, I have my reasons.

The wild-type HIV virus is NOT multi-drug resistant. The only reason this is being passed along is because people who know they are HIV positive and were/are taking antivirals that don't completely suppress the viral levels are practicing unsafe sex.

This is basic natural selection on the part of the virus. Anyone who knows anything about AIDS knows that if you are meds and you still have a detectable viral load, then your particular strain will most likely develop resistance in a matter of months to ALL your current medications.

And if you are passing around a form of the virus that is resistant all NNRTI, NRTI, and PI then there is no ignorance of the fact you are HIV positive to hide behind.

And having unsafe sex when you know you are HIV positive is criminal.

[xchrom]

10. being single poor and pregnant is terrible too

when it comes to sex, drugs, alcohol -- people have always done dumb things.
and always will.
and they will lie about them.
this is not the first resistant super-virous to appear.
btw.

so unless we opening the camps...

[Liberal Veteran]

19. To an extent, if the person who passed along this virus...

....could be proven to have engaged in unsafe sexual behavior while knowing he was positive, then he probably does need to be locked because he is endangering society. That does not absolve the person who had sex with him and put his own life at risk, but the very last thing we need is another AIDS crisis in the gay community and passing around multi-drug resistant virus is a sure fire way to create one.

And I say that as a person who is HIV positive myself.

[renaissanceguy]

120. I'm just curious...

would you say that, from what you've seen, Liberal Vet, that many of these cases stem from bathhouse activity? From the men I have encountered here in Chicago who have some sort of STD, they usually frequent those sorts of places.

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.14744291

[beyurslf]

14. I've never really heard that a detectable level will result in resistance

in a matter on months. Sustiva is the most susceptible to developing a resistance and it takes 6 to 8 months usually. And it only eleminates itself as an option not any other drugs. Most others take much longer to develop any resistance. Even having said this, I do not believe that it is "most likely" that you will develop resistance.

As far as being detectable, there is much debate about whether low levels of detectable are any better or worse than undetectable. POZ magazine just had an article about the growing number of HIVers who are staying off meds, living detectable, and monitoring their disease in other ways.

I have been detectable for 2 years with very, very low levels (under 2500 and usually under 1000). I have not changed my meds since summer 2003 when I stopped taking Sustiva and I don't plan to change them now even though I am not "undetectable."

As far as unsafe sex when you know you're positive... I agree it is morally reprehensible.

[Liberal Veteran]

25. Detectable viral load while on HAART.

Generally puts you at greater risk of therapy failure and mutations. That's generally speaking, not 100%.

The idea of HAART is to get your viral load as low as possible, preferably undectable on the ultrasensitive assay.

A rising viral load while on therapy is the biggest sign of viral breakthrough due to mutation. Generally speaking, people who have a detectable viral load are considered to be at greater risk of developing a drug-resistant mutation. That can vary by individual, but in medicine a lot is based on generalities.

If for some reason there is a mutation resistant to one drug, the other two can take over and hopefully prevent that type from replicating. Unfortunately, what happens a lot is you end up with resistance to all three drugs over time.

Studies done during the times when AZT monotherapy was being tested generally had the mean time AZT resistant mutations at 25 to 63 days. While that has been extended in combination with other drugs, once you experience viral breakthrough (ie, a rising viral load after reaching your lowest numbers), it is only a matter of time before you the other two drugs go out as well.

[barb162]

24. you said this so well; thanks, it's a good thing this is being

publicized because I fear another big outbreak that didn't have to happen if people had been careful.

[truthisfreedom]

11. why on earth would anyone on speed be interested in sex?

the two seem mutually inconsistent.

[mudderfudder77]

13. It increases the high - the pleasure - the stamina

Not that I have any experience with that...

[xchrom]

15. it does turn you into a bottom though

not that i would know first hand -- or anything.

[beyurslf]

16. LOL. You are just bad :)

[xchrom]

18. sigh -- you nailed it... or me.

i've been around the block once or twice.:hi:

[beyurslf]

22. Haven't we all...

[LondonAmerican]

62. I found tina

to be fairly unpleasant and boring. i was high and happy on e and dancing at a club at 7 am and then the crystal just brought me down. it kept me awake and made it hard to get it up. sex was pretty mechanical and compulsive, not fun like on e or g. and the come-down was terrible.

i did that one time and decided that it was crap. thank god you don't see much of it here; it's completely gutted the gay scene in the states.

for more info, check out: http://www.lifeormeth.com (great site!)

[Chelsea Patriot]

53. To Be Blunt, Anal Sex on Meth is very Intense.

Or so, I've been told....

My Roommate's Best Friend tells me that the orgasm that he eventually gets out of that combination is the most incredible, amazing experience he has ever had.

I have never gone that far...

That being said, twice in the past 10 years, the last time being seven years ago tonight actually, I have used Meth in a sexual context.

Speed propels you into the all consuming,uninhibited sexual frenzy.

It's not really a one time experience. The draw, the desire, the memory of this hyper-sexual state remains. The desire to repeat it is very strong.

Breaking the Tina/Sex link is incredibly difficult.

It took me nearly five years to forget what that Speed-Induced Sexual State feels like, and I only had those two experiences.

This story is literally set in my neighborhood.

I bet I know this man with the Virus.

[LondonAmerican]

61. tina by itself

won't make you want sex, it'll just keep you awake and aggressive. you need to combine it with other drugs (like, eg, ghb to get the sex drive going) and stuff like cialis to get your willy working properly.

tina by itself will just keep you awake, give you a feeling of invulnerability and make it impossible to get it up.

[loudsue]

26. Thanks to all for the education about this!

:loveya: That's one of the things I love most about DU!! Where else in the world can we go for such well-informed, open discussions about so many important issues!!??

:yourock:

:kick::kick::kick:

[KissMeKate]

27. one more reason to use condoms.

I know it sounds preachy, but dont give up on those condoms just yet folks!

[Liberal Veteran]

28. Word. And not just because of HIV.

Hepatitis is spread sexually as well and hear that having a liver transplant isn't a pleasant experience.

Rule of thumb, if you and your partner haven't been tested for all STDs then you shouldn't be engaging unsafe sex. You are not just sleeping with them, but everyone they slept with as well.

[KissMeKate]

29. absolutely. even regular STDs involve antibiotics that do a number on you

life sucks taking antibiotics- serious gastrointestinal distress, to put it kindly.

[frustrated_lefty]

30. I hesitate to speak...

Liberal Democrat: you state that the wild-type HIV is not multi-drug resistant. That's not necessarily true. HIV undergoes between 1 and 2 point mutations per replication. The virus replicates roughly once every 20 hours. One year after infection, a person is not infected with "wild-type HIV." They're infected with a quasi-species, a whole bunch of viruses with similar pathological consequences, but genetically distinct. Those subtle changes in the sequence of the viral genome are where drug resistance arises.

Basically, we kill off 99.9% of the population, and, unintentionally, create fertile ground for that 0.1% of the virus to spread out.

You've undoubtedly heard of the threat of anti-biotic resistant bacteria. The bacteria developed resistance over time. These viruses develop a similar resistance to anti-retrovirals over time. The ONLY way to kill a bug like this is to do it all at once, throughout the world. We need to do to HIV what we did to small-pox.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

31. Go here.... click on your menu, edit, find in this page and

type glyconutrients. I cannot cut and paste this for you since it is a PDF derivative.... if you read Dr. McDaniel's testimony before congress regarding the role of glyconutrients against bioterrorism, infectious agents, 37 human virus, and other bacterial agents, you will see that this is an area of science that many of us in here could benefit from... many already do.

[d.l.Green]

33. 1982: FIRE, FIRE!- 2005:(damn,didn't work then) FIRE! FIRE!

One more lame attempt to divert the reasons for these "diseases" attributed to some yet-to-be-isolated "virus". I still can't believe in this day and age that ANYONE besides those who are making a bundle off this "disease" are taking any of this seriously. 1981-82: gay sex and drugs. 2005: gay sex and drugs. What gets blamed? Why, the gay sex, of course! God forbid it was the drugs because that would then require that people take responsibility of their lives and stop taking the drugs, and would suddenly force people to question drugs, ALL drugs. It must be the gay sex because its: naughty, sinful, unnatural, immoral and now, deadly- whatever. Maybe I'm in some kind of gay bubble here in New York(supposedly the "hiv/aids" capital of the world) but I haven't known ANYONE who's ill or died who's been attributed to so-called "hiv/aids" for more than 10 years now. Or, I'm just lucky, and so are thousands of my acquaitances, we must all be immune. Or, maybe I don't hang out with the druggies and drunks, who care little about their health. I fell for this whole thing for 10 whole years- I was in the middle of it in 1981-1982, but I have NEVER met anyone who has had "it" who didn't do drugs and/or drank heavily. And I never met anyone who died from "it" who didn't take the toxic cocktail that the medical industrial complex is shoveling down a bunch of vulnerable throats. With the recent attempts to quash large class action suits the public at large may never learn the truth....

[benburch]

47. You are complicit in this epidemic.

What you are saying here is providing the excuse young people need to continue unprotected sex.

And you do it knowing full well that you are telling a lie.

HIV causes AIDS. Nobody with any intelligence whatsoever doubts this. No reputable scientist doubts it. If it did not, then there would be hundreds of medical personnel who would never have contracted it through needle sticks, and thousands of patients who would never have contracted it through receiving donated blood and tissue.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[d.l.Green]

48. I'm only complicit in encouraging people to really look at the evidence

THEMSELVES. If you think that many intelligent people still believe this stuff then you need to educate yourself. You seem to put all your trust in something other people are telling you- something that most DU'er's seem to be very wary of. Are you a scientist? What is "reputable" to you? Is Bush a "reputable" president? Well most people would argue he is! Have you EVER actually seen proof that "hiv" actually exists? (If you find it, please forward it to me- there's actually a $1 million dollar reward for such proof- it may be more now.)

This may be outrageous to you, but from my knowledge, and as one who thrives on living, I would gladly have no fear in having an "hiv" positive person's blood injected into mine. That's how strongly I feel about this. Do you feel strongly enough about your belief that you would voluntarily take any of the toxic drugs that are pumped into these supposedly "sick" people who are tested positive? I would hope not!

And young people don't need an "excuse" especially from me to continue "unprotected sex"(whatever that refers to). This whole fear tactic has caused several generations of humans to engage in totally unnatural sex with a piece of latex between them to "safeguard" them from some mysterious diseases. Being healthy and avoiding the obvious health-robbing practices of eating dead food, ingesting "recreational" (and prescribed) drugs, drinking alcohol and not exercising, will get most people through life without a worry in the world.

Read on... http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/index.htm

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[d.l.Green]

50. I would beg to differ and would almost define what you are doing

by blindly accepting this nonsense, as being closed minded. You must be so afraid to question that which is so ingrained without evidence, but with pure Goebbels-like media hype, that you fail to even acknowledge that there may be an alternative viewpoint. You do not provide an argument, you are making a judgment.

[Patiod]

121. I've worked with hematologists who killed their hemophiliacs

back in the 80s. These docs watched a whole generation of their hemophiliac patients die. Children. Killed by HIV-tainted blood and blood-products, including clotting factor. I've heard them talk about the horrible guilt they feel, even though they had no way of knowing, at the time, that the life-saving clotting factor they were giving would kill the little boys who were receiving it.

These kids died from HIV-infected blood products, which caused them to get AIDS. These kids didn't die from eating dead food, ingesting recreational or prescribed drugs, from problems related to other sexually transmitted diseases, from drinking alcohol or from not exercising. These children died from use of HIV-infected blood products which they used to stop themselves from bleeding to death. Period.

I don't think any of these docs would volunteer to have an "HIV" positive person's blood injecting into theirs or any of their patients.

[d.l.Green]

136. If you look at the history of so-called "aids" that was determined to

be from "tainted" transfused blood, you will also see concurrently a new clotting factor was being used commonly because it was cheaper. The coincidence fit neatly into this new "disease" being "blood borne", but it also took the blame of failure away from the toxicity of this new pseudo-factor and it was handily attributed the "virus".

I agree, I don't think any doctor working in this field would ever allow anyone to transfer blood to prove a point because it's too risky to their profession(al salaries). An "aids/hiv" patient is worth 10's of thousands of dollars a year to the medical industry. This sub-industry is doing quite well- what's the incentive to bite that hand?

[Patiod]

143. They're still using the "new psuedo-factor"

people are using it every day and it's not killing anyone, because it's clean now.

And I don't know what you know about hemophilia and the history of factor, but the "new clotting factor" (Factor VIII) was introduced in the 60's, and it was FAR more expensive (as well as being far more effective and easier to use) than cryo, which is what they had been using. The problem was that it a) was a lot more expensive and b) carried hepatitis, and later, AIDS.

There was no "new clotting factor" being introduced in the 1980s - factor VIII had been around for 15 years by then. The product was toxic not because it was "new" but because it was being taken from blood that was being sold by transients, drug users and other people who were hothouses for blood-borne disease, rather than blood from Red Cross volunteers, who were far more likely to be healthy and free from blood-borne illness.

(sidebar: what's really sick about this story is that Republican administration, instead of shutting down plasma-buyers, let them self-regulate so as not to "destroy" the industry. A lot of people died because of St. Ronnie's reluctance to interfere with "free enterprise". Later, when the manufacturers started to suspect that bought plasma was tainted, there have been accusations made that some manufacturers began offering the cleaner product from donated plasma in the US, and selling the stuff from the plasma buyers overseas)

And hematologists have no stake in protecting some supposed "AIDS/HIV industry" - don't treat AIDS patients. They treat hemophiliacs. And making a hemophiliac into an AIDS patient isn't worth squat to them - except as a potential malpractice suit waiting to happen. And these docs don't work for the pharma companies, and have no incentive NOT to "bite the hand" if they suspected that AIDs was not transferred by tainted factor.

:tinfoilhat:

[pandemic_1918]

131. HIV Kills and Recombinants Kill Faster

HIV is the killer (the sythetic peptide is the best proof because it targets the protein sequence of HIV). However, the mutations that cause resistance to each of the drugs are known

http://resdb.lanl.gov/Resist_DB/default.htm

You can pick a class of drug from the link below and then do a search to get a list of mutations that make HIV to the given drug

http://resdb.lanl.gov/Resist_DB/FMPro?-db=resistrelated.fmp&-lay=Form&-format=simple_search.htm&-view

And soon it will be shown that the new virus in NYC is a recombinant

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=hiv+3-dcr+drug+resistance

[girl gone mad]

70. "Nobody with any intelligence whatsoever doubts this"

That's an inaccurate statement.

Thousands of doctors and scientists, including the discoverer of retroviruses and the inventor of the PCR test which is now used to detect viral load, question current HIV/AIDS theory. These are Nobel Prize caliber thinkers.

[benburch]

72. Then they should have their Nobel taken away.

Because they are fools.

HIV causes AIDS. It has been proven the hard way, by people dying.

Why do you think so many people died from blood transfusions? Even from donated cornea transplants? This is absolute evidence of an infectious agent that causes the disease. Anybody who claims to doubt this and has an education is lying to you and promoting an agenda. Further, patients with AIDS respond to drugs which prevent the replication of HIV by lessening of symptoms, and this is proof that the infectious agent either is HIV directly, or that HIV is a necessary co-agent in causing AIDS. Finally, we know for fact that condom use reduces AIDS incidence, even when you compare drug using and sober populations - no fact in public health medicine is more clear.

I am not closed-minded on this. I did my research. There is simply no way an educated, honest person can make any other claim.

[d.l.Green]

82. People die of a lot of things, that doesn't prove anything about why they

died. What kind of blind logic is that?

If you did your research did you look at the Merck Manual- otherwise known as the "doctor's bible"- annually from 1981 to the present and see how "aids/hiv" has changed definition in every year? Do you not know that there are over forty diseases that are now attributable to "aids" that have previously existed and the only distinction between the old disease and the new disease is a "positive" "hiv" test? How would anyone know how much condoms are used unless one actually witnessed such private acts? And so how would any "study" be able to determine the effectiveness of using them or not?

In your research did you not find that the accuracy of the "test" is questionable at best and that from these shoddy "test" results otherwise perfectly healthy people are prescribed very toxic drugs? Did you not find that the inventor of the PCR test, a method used to determine "hiv" infection, questions the validity of the existence of "hiv/aids"?

Do I have an agenda? Uh, as a gay activist I definitely would not want to see my friends and community any more devastated by this hoax than it already has been. I would hope that EVERYONE would learn from this that we all need to take control of our own decisions, research them fully, and take any life-altering decision on one's health with more seriousness than just listening to "an expert". One needs only look beyond the scope of the crap that the medical-industrial complex funds- and the press ignorantly repeats...

[pandemic_1918]

145. HIV Data is Publicly Available

The sequence data and resistance data on HIV is publicly available. Duesberg and Mullis ran off on their own spouting utter nonsense. They have no credibility in the scientific community. HIV causes AIDS. Its quite clear. There are no credible alternative explanations.

[bettyellen]

55. that's the most ignorant thing i have read on DU in a long time.

and these thousands of aquaintances, they all had reason to disclose their HIV status to you, and you know for a fact that they're negative, and have never bothered to practice safe sex? are you kidding me?
sounds like you are just trying to rationalize having unsafe sex yourself.

[LondonAmerican]

63. pretty moronic post

i knew dozens of people who died of aids in the 1980s. your post is ugly. it wasn't anything that killed them but hiv - not 'swine flu' not 'legionaires disease' not 'poppers' not 'drugs' and not 'exposure to semen' (all of which were thrown around as theories then).

some of the people i knew who died did in fact drink or take drugs - most did not however.

what they all had in common was that they had taken it up the arse without using condoms because back then nobody knew that unsafe sex make it easy to transmit hiv and that hiv is the agent that causes aids.

spewing deluded and self-justifying crap won't help you or any of your friends if you are busy barebacking each other.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

122. Well being here in the "fag capital" of the world...

San Francisco, I can tell you first hand that what you are saying is simply not true.


"....but I have NEVER met anyone who has had "it" who didn't do drugs and/or drank heavily. And I never met anyone who died from "it" who didn't take the toxic cocktail that the medical industrial complex is shoveling down a bunch of vulnerable throats."

I can give you the names of literally dozens of my friends who were very sexually active but did not do drugs or engage in heavy drinking and later aquired HIV.

And I had been to more funerals that I could count LONG before the first HIV/AIDS drugs had seen the light of day.

And I can point you to more friends who have become ill when going off the cocktails or while on them. And yes, a few have died.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

169. Well then I should introduce you to my friend who looks like Adonis

and does not drink or take illicit drugs...we know EXACTLY where he got it from. I've seen people come back from severe neurological compromise at death's door with a foot already in the grave that are still alive because of the cocktail.

[rodeodance]

38. Rare and Aggressive H.I.V. Reported in New York

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/12/health/12aids.html?hp&ex=1108270800&en=4d5d2b3eeae367e9&ei=5094&partner=homepage

February 12, 2005
Rare and Aggressive H.I.V. Reported in New York
By MARC SANTORA and LAWRENCE K. ALTMAN

A rare strain of H.I.V. that is highly resistant to virtually all anti-retroviral drugs and appears to lead to the rapid onset of AIDS was detected in a New York City man last week, city health officials announced on Friday.

It was the first time a strain of H.I.V. had been found that both showed resistance to multiple drugs and led to AIDS so quickly, the officials said. While the extent of the disease's spread is unknown, officials called a news conference to say that the situation is alarming.

"We consider this a major potential problem," said Dr. Thomas R. Frieden, the commissioner of the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene. The department issued an alert to all hospitals and doctors in the city to test all newly detected H.I.V. cases for evidence of the rare strain.

The virus was found in a New York City man in his mid-40's who engaged in unprotected anal sex with other men on multiple occasions while he was using crystal methamphetamine. Health officials have long said that the drug's stimulating effect and erasure of inhibitions contributes to sex marathons that have increased the spread of H.I.V.
........

[benburch]

39. Oh dear gods.

We need to be teaching our kids safer sex. Period.

Bush is going to murder a whole generation.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren Stupidity]

45. its a stretch but...

the theocrats push 'abstinence education' instead of sex education, not as it should be taught, which is that abstinence is one of several strategies for learning responsible sexual behavior. One consequence of the abstinence only approach is that those subjected to this experiment in theocracy may in fact not know what their alternatives are or how to correctly use those alternatives. That, my friend, kills people and results in unwanted pregnancies.

[benburch]

46. What a knuckledragging sentiment!

I'm sorry to have to be this blunt, only a terrible person could think like this.

It will not be long before this version of the disease spreads into the heterosexual population. When that happens, the people who will be getting it will be young men and women, none of whom have had appropriate safer sex education in the schools because of GWB's abstinence-only programs over the last six years.

I was involved in AIDS activism in the 80s and early 90s, and it simply breaks my heart to see all the work we did then destroyed by the vile and retributive policies of this criminal administration.

Safer sex needs to be taught in the schools, and condoms need to be free or nearly free for all Americans. Until a vaccine is finally developed, this is the ONLY way to prevent a pandemic that WILL wipe out a generation, and it is attitudes such as yours that will have ushered the grim reaper to the door.

[biftonnorton]

51. My now deleted post didn't single out gays

So I wasn't ruling out the spread of the disease to heteros. Info on safe sex should always be taught. And some of that info should include, gay or hetero, don't have unprotected sex with multiple partners and don't do so on meth. Don't blame Bush for this guy's getting HIV-- the guy wasn't in the generation you're sure will be "murdered." Your Bush-blaming is as bad as freeps' Clinton-blaming and just perpetuates the fuzzy logic that dems are being ridiculed for. You will murder a whole generation of dems' political impact with your overgeneralizing hysterical statements about Bush "murdering" a generation.

Sorry if my message didn't come across clear in the earlier post. It was quite early for my brain to be in gear and it might have not been working on all cylinders. Apologies to the board.

[RPM]

41. "murder a whole generation"

murder another generation
murder a whole generation in another country
murder everyone he can

sorry, i just cant find the right wording for what that bad bad man is doing

[regnaD kciN]

43. And I'm sure Bush and the fundies...

...will hold this up as further proof that abstinance until (heterosexual) marriage is the only way to go...

...and Fred Phelps will be praising God for this new "miracle"...

:puke:

[Puglover]

42. What a GREAT excuse for the insane right wing

to vilify all of us faggots.

[NEOBuckeye]

44. New strain could be "HIV-3"

Much more rare but potentially much more insidious than the more common HIV-1 and HIV-2 strains. Researchers had feared for several years that a new strain might jump from primates into humans...

http://www.aegis.com/pubs/aidswkly/1999/AW990210.html

[pandemic_1918]

146. New Strain is Recombined HIV

The new strain will be a recombinant of HIV-1. No new species jumps required

http://news.google.com/news?q=hiv%203-dcr&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wn

[BigBearJohn]

52. I was talking about this with a friend and he said to go to this site.

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/

[d.l.Green]

54. Kick!

[megatherium]

56. NIAID Fact Sheet -- why we know HIV causes AIDS!

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/evidhiv.htm

Unless you have a strong psychological need to deny that HIV is the cause for AIDS, you should find this _extremely_ persuasive. Anyone who puts themselves at risk for getting HIV should understand the tremendous danger.

When AIDS first appeared (by 1980, actually HIV began to spread in North America by 1977), there were many in the gay community who were angry that public health authorities were telling them to stop the promiscuity. Sexual liberation for gay people, obtained at such a price through the 1950s and 1960s, was felt by the activists to be at stake. Unfortunately, it was.

I happen to be a gay man (celibate these days), and I happen to be a scientist. I expect to remain celibate until I can be married to a man I can (literally) trust with my life. Marriage for me won't be an open, casual sort of arrangement -- it will be permanent and monogamous. At the risk of angering some here: if gay men in the 1970s were no more promiscuous than heterosexuals, there wouldn't have been an AIDS epidemic. It is a simple ecological fact of life: promiscuity is dangerous, collectively and individually.

If another terrible AIDS epidemic begins in this country, if it returns to the conditions to the early 1980s, can we count on the Bush administration? We have had our warning.

[DenaliDemocrat]

59. I too

am a scientist, a toxicologist by trade.

I am not a gay man, I am a heterosexual man married with kids in a monogomous relationship. Personally, I found some of the articles fascinating and have been reading for the last two hours.


What I came away with is that HIV alone is probably not the sole cause/explanation for full blown AIDS, but is most certainly a contributing factor. Much like a genetic mutation of DNA cannot by itself cause cancer without some sort of promoter initiating cellular division out of control.

From my perspective, it makes sense. How else can you explain the incredible variability of the disease if other factors are not involved? Ita etiology is certianly very different from most other viruses we are familiar with where a certain time frame and symptoms can be expected.

The statistic that I found that just blew me away was that even without treatment only 50% of HIV-positive people develop AIDS within ten years. That is very very strange.

[megatherium]

64. cofactors for HIV?

HIV is a strange virus. Unfortunately, while only 50% progress to AIDS in 10 years, most everyone with the virus will progress to AIDS and die if untreated, eventually. (I forget the numbers; mean time to progression to AIDS is ten years, but I don't remember the standard deviation.)

I remember back in the 1980s, there was a lot of discussion and research concerning possible HIV cofactors that would determine if you developed AIDS. Drug use, herpes viruses, and so forth were suspected, but I believe the final story is that HIV all by itself is the cause of AIDS (you don't need a cofactor, and even without a cofactor, you'll eventually get AIDS). The salient point is that all the putative cofactors were around long before AIDS showed up, but the weird opportunistic infections and malignancies that characterize AIDS were very rare before HIV appeared.

That having been said, it does appear that some people have genetic resistance to progression to AIDS; "long-term non-progressors" have been the object of much study, both to look for treatments and to find strategies for vaccines. But these people are a small minority (5 percent?) of HIV cases. And certainly if you treat yourself poorly (abuse drugs, etc) you'll progress more rapidly.

By the way, I'm a mathematician. Perhaps calling myself a scientist (without clarification) in this context is speaking a bit out of turn, but the AIDS-denialism pseudoscience really gets my goat.

Cheers,

megatherium

[d.l.Green]

65. Denialism? Pseudoscience?

Let's see the "mean time" is 10 years, yet "hiv" has only been around for what, 20 years? This is the mantra that was played soon after it was discovered- these fortune tellers amazingly got it right? They also considered it a "slow virus" that sometimes takes forty years to show symptoms. This was a premeditated big lie.

The "malignancies and opportunistic infections" weren't observed previously because that situation had not existed previously EVER. (A whole population partying to the
hilt, without proper nourishment, enough sleep, and mixing all sorts of drugs- for sleep, for sex, for high, for energy, for STD's- with alcohol.)

There have been no studies of progressions with and without the prescribed drugs. The initial clinical trials of AZT(that were used to fast track approval) were spoiled for "ethical reasons". And yet there has never been another study to make up for it- just a lot of human guinea pigs willingly taking this toxic drug that actually causes cell death. The doses were higher and more deadly in the beginning then they reduced the doses to slow the deaths. That any drug or combination of drugs could attack something that hasn't even been isolated sure sounds more than fishy to me. And that the same drug that was prescribed in the beginning and is still being used today in the cocktails doesn't make sense. For a "virus" that takes so long to supposedly cause death, how could any logic be applied to explain the lengths of survival with the prescribed drug use?

Again, I'm amazed at the success of this morbid campaign and that so many otherwise intelligent people fall for this with little more personal research than reading the endless literature and press releases. Look a little beyond the comfortable surface and the lack of proof will amaze you, I promise. Personally I've had enough first hand proof that this is a hoax and believe me, I did not come to this conclusion without years of research and experience with my friends who died in the late 80's and 90's(needlessly and abominably). Even if I had some suicidal death wish, I would not risk it to die like they did...

[TheWraith]

74. Feel free to explain the people who have contracted HIV from transfusions

As well as the people who've contracted it from bites, or blood contact, or those people that you claim don't exist who got it sexually without drug use. Or, for that matter, feel free to explain why infectees continue to sicken and die without treatment years after they gave up any bad habits.

[BigBearJohn]

86. I am not claiming that there is no disease out there

but people (myself included) are questioning the validity of HIV being the culprit causing the disease.

[d.l.Green]

160. How do smokers get lung cancer after they stop smoking?

Most drugs stay in your body for a lifetime. Ask anyone who's gone through a long, thorough fast. Symptoms from drugs you may have taken as a child come to the fore as you detoxify from such a fast. Just stopping the poppers or drinking or AZT will not rid your body of them. Your body may go back to functioning regularly but it all just hangs around in your system.

The only people who "got it" without the drug use were, once again, just tested "positive" by a faulty, inconsistent, unproven test. I'll bet any amount that you won't find one person who died whose only explanation was having sex. If they were tested "positive" they went on toxic drugs no matter how healthy they were. If they didn't take the "aids" drugs they carried a concoction of "recreational drugs" in their bodies from previous use- or even continuous use as the "aids" pushers negated the connection of the drug and alcohol use to their illnesses.

[BigBearJohn]

85. You said a mouthful and I wholeheartedly agree.

I have had friends who the doctors gave 1 to 2 years to live
who completely stopped their AZT treatments, who then went on
to eat a natural diet with exercise and rest and 2 of these
friends are alive today, 12 years later.

I am not encouraging unsafe sex, however, I have friends who
completely ignore condom use, live in Thailand for the last
15 years and are disease free. It is interesting to note that
these friends never did the traditional drugs such as poppers
ameyl nitrate, etc.

The thing that bothers me the most is that almost any disease
nowadays fall under the umbrella called "AIDS". What is interesting
is that our foods are becoming less and less nutritional every year
as we are being bombarded by toxins of every kind in our environment.
When do you ever hear these AIDS experts talking about the
effects of our "fast food" generation who eats plastic food, parties
at both ends, works 14 hour days, no exercise... etc etc etc.
Is it any wonder our nation is getting sicker and sicker?

[BigBearJohn]

68. Dr. Mullis, Biochemist, 1993 Nobel Prize for Chemistry disputes your claim

"If there is evidence that HIV causes AIDS, there should be scientific documents which either singly or collectively demonstrate that fact, at least with a high probability. There is no such document."
Dr. Kary Mullis, Biochemist, 1993 Nobel Prize for Chemistry.

[megatherium]

75. Please read the NIAID fact sheet.

I think the evidence is compelling, regardless as to what Mullis or Deusberg or the other scientists who have voiced denialist positions say. (Some of these scientists have since recanted, as have AIDS patients whose health rebounded when they finally started on antivirals.)

Mullis, by the way, is a real character. He was given the Nobel prize for his discovery of a tremendous tool in molecular biology: the polymerase chain reaction (PCR). But he is an avid surfer who raised eyebrows by testifying on behalf of the defense in the OJ Simpson trial (concerning DNA evidence), and he muses in his memoirs as to the possibility that there might be something to astrology. (If I recall, his memoir is called Explosions in the Mind Field.)

To me one of the most compelling pieces of evidence that HIV is the cause of AIDS is the knowledge that similar viruses cause similar diseases in other species -- and this can (and has been) verified in controlled lab tests of a sort not possible or ethical with humans. Other retroviruses include the feline leukemia virus and the simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV). It can't be beyond the realm of imagination that a virus that attacks humans in a similar way would show up.

[BigBearJohn]

88. There is a $20,000 reward being offered to anyone who can prove HIV exists

See: http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/news/araward.htm
If you can prove it, why don't you go claim the $20,000?

[LondonAmerican]

92. Hmm...

what do you suppose it is that the doctor measures when they do my boyfriend's regular hiv viral load tests?

this sounds like those guys who are claiming that there was no holocaust and are 'offering' 1M USD to 'anyone' who can prove it did. however none of the commonly accepted methods of historical scholarshi pare aceptable to them though...

but thanks for the great news.

[d.l.Green]

95. That's a very good question! What are they measuring? And what

meaning does it have in relation to his health? What does it prove and how does it determine what drugs to give him when double blind long term clinical trials on these results don't exist? Ask your doctor how he knows what these mean. Does he just refer to some digest or manual? Or does he know first hand of some of these trials that aren't published?

Good point about the reward. But it's not enough to get you off the hook of proving its existence... I would think the incentive would be to prove it to yourself so you can know once and for all that all us loonies don't know what we're talking about even though we're pretty damn confident. This is a challenge, why not take it if you're so confident. All you have to do is prove that it exists and maybe provide a link, that's all...

[megatherium]

103. viral load and AIDS

Dr. David Ho established in the mid 1990s that the rate to progression to AIDS in people with HIV was directly dependent on viral load: the higher the load, the more rapid the progress to AIDS. He determined this using the then new protease inhibitors, which are capable of switching off viral production in the body like a light switch.

[BigBearJohn]

104. I am not confident on either argument. That's why I brought it up.

Just because a whole sleu of people seem to agree on something
does not necessarily make it so. (If that were true, the whole
population of Republicans would have us sent to hell in a hand
basket!)I have many friends in the medical profession and they are have major disagreements on the medical questions of the day.

My only reason in bringing up the fact that someone is offering
$20,000 to anyone who can prove the existence of HIV is because
if someone really COULD prove its existence, why wouldn't they
claim the reward? This is not an unfair question to ask.

Because of my age, I don't have sex anymore anyway, so the problem
does not apply to me. Still, it doesn't mean I can't ask questions.

[LondonAmerican]

113. It's not up to me to prove anything

much less the existence of a virus that has infected my partner and will likely shorten his life.

What unmitigated gall, buddy. Your posts really are despicable.

[d.l.Green]

148. Hey, you're basically asking me for proof about what I believe, what's the

difference? The difference is that I am free of the shackles of this invented fear that you seem more willing to live with for the rest of your life than entertain the notion that maybe it doesn't have to be that way. I'm already satisfied with my well-researched conclusions and I seem to be in the company of some pretty intelligent doctors(see post #105) and even South African President Mbeki. It's sad to see you so emotionally attached to this "scientific" notion that really has no proof. Believe me, when someone first told me this I thought they had lost their minds and were in complete denial. It took me years to read up on the matter and then watch the reality of it in friends who were dying and people who I had met who had rejected it and became healthier than they ever had been in their whole lives.

BTW, my life partner was on his deathbed 8 years ago with "hiv" induced lung cancer. They turned him into a guinea pig with painful treatments and nasty drugs- and of course did nothing pertaining to his diet. He had the luxury of having the option to escape the city and live out in the country, so he rejected his hospital stay and left. Even though he gave up the hospitalization he continued to take all the drugs and the tests. When I met him, I was up front with him about my beliefs, not knowing his "status". He was worried for me, but because I stuck to my guns and proved I was not in denial, he started to read up on it himself. He said he had clues at times that something wasn't right. His doctor warned him about how "dangerous" I was- as if an intelligent grown man in his forties couldn't come to his own conclusions. And without any pressure from me he got off his meds completely a year and a half ago. Today he's healthier than he's ever been in his life. A bodybuilder(without the distended stomach so common in "hiv" drug user builders) who is studying to be a trainer. He went from being a slight man to being a bulging hunk. He has amazing energy, and people who worked with him years ago don't recognize him. He takes NO drugs, not even apirin and doesn't drink alcohol. His diet is 90% raw food vegan. So even if there is such a thing, which he is totally convinced now there isn't, he's LIVING his life to the fullest...

[KissMeKate]

155. you are out of touch with reality if you think anecdotal evidence equals

science.

Lots of smokers live to be 100.

Lots of alchoholics Dont die of liver disease.

Those personal stories masquerading as scientific fact are ridiculous.

People who deny the existence of HIV are just as complicit as the murderers who have sex without condoms when they know their status is HIV+.

This shit destroys the credibility of the gay rights movement. Whenever I try to argue for the right of gays to get married (a community I include myself in) the one argument about "the unhealthy lifestyle" I CANNOT refute is the bareback sex of the HIV+ people. I love sex. I think gay men are great. But this behavior is murderous, and destructive of the WHOLE community.

Anyone who denies the existence of HIV, or advocates condomless sex in the high risk gay community should be ashamed of themselves.

[d.l.Green]

159. Sorry, I'm an active part of the gay community also. I'd put my

experiences and the ones I judge my decision to reject this hoax against anyone else's in the community. I was there in the beginning of "it", was pulled in by the hype, experienced the lifestyle that caused "it", and watched friends and acquaintances die of "it"- all in NYC(and New Orleans and upstate NY). Loaded with the information I've based my decisions on I have always fantasized about a lawsuit requiring discovery of proof. It would take someone with a strong will and commitment to survive in light of such unmitigated bias. President Mbeki's action to form a committee to investigate this whole thing is the closest I've known to publicly expose the unanswered questions that still remain UNANSWERED at the very basic foundation of this theory. This is not science, this is a manipulated public acting out of emotion and a well financed "hiv/aids" industry that needs to sustain itself, defending an invented cause.

How dare you infer that I am a potential "murderer" while the community rejects any responsibility to concentrate on the most publicized portion of our community that continues to party negligently with drugs and alcohol- this is the behavior that is "murderous", no more, no less. It's much easier to blame an invisible bogeyman than oneself...

Once more, how can you void the responsibility of barebacking "victims" if they actually believe in such a "disease"??? If you really believe this crap, then make sure of your own "safety"- PERIOD.

[BigBearJohn]

101. Well, I can understand your angst. I am honestly am sorry to

hear your friend is ill. I too have friends who
are ill. I never said the disease does not exist.
And they do measure T-cells, that much I know.
I only question whether they have discovered the
true cause of the disease. Must we make this so
personal? Am I to just accept what I am told
without question?

[LondonAmerican]

114. In my bf's case

they measure the amount of virus that is circulating in his blood (viral load). in other words, they are measuring the quantity of the virus that some people want to pretend "doesn't exist." my bf and i don't have the luxury of entertaining that fantasy.

That is different from t-cell tests, which they also do.

[BigBearJohn]

142. Well, I hope I did not come across as know-it-all. I am only

investigating this for my own knowledge and was looking for differing viewpoints. That's all. Peace.

[GoCubsGo05]

107. Please...that's like the reward for proving evolution exists...

..it's just another excuse people can use to deny its existance. "Well go claim the money, then." Not a solid argument. It's harder for you to prove it doesn't exist because you are trying to prove a negative.

[BigBearJohn]

108. Ok. End of argument, I guess.

We'll both believe what we want to believe.

[LondonAmerican]

77. Gee, barebacking sure is fun, isn't it Big 'Bear' john? nt.

[BigBearJohn]

89. I wouldn't know.

[LondonAmerican]

93. Of course not. nt.

[BigBearJohn]

99. Thank you for your vote of confidence.

There are other reasons for playing safely
than only for fear of AIDS. Are you sure
you are not projecting your own values?

[LondonAmerican]

115. i think a few people here

are projecting their own wish-fantasies.

[hedgehog]

105. Right, and Shockley who won a Nobel for the transistor

believed that some races were genetically inferior. Winning a Nobel in one area doesn't make you an expert in other areas. Remember too that one scientist won a Nobel for developing the lobotomy!

[BigBearJohn]

106. Fair statement. Then, maybe you can tell me who I can safely believe.

What credentials would be acceptable to you? Any of these:

It is widely believed by the general public that a retrovirus called HIV causes the group diseases called AIDS. Many biochemical scientists now question this hypothesis. We propose that a thorough reappraisal of the existing evidence for and against this hypothesis be conducted by a suitable independent group. We further propose that critical epidemiological studies be devised and undertaken.
Signatories:
• Charles A. Thomas, Jr. Ph.D. (Mol. Biologist, Pres. Helicon Fnd., San Diego, CA)
• Harvey Bialy, Ph.D. (Editor Bio/Technology, New York, NY)
• Richard C. Strohman, Ph.D. (Prof. Cell Biology, Univ. Cal. Berkeley, CA)
• Phillip E. Johnson (Prof. Law, Univ. Cal. Berkeley, CA)
• Gordon J. Edlin, Ph.D. (Prof. Biochem. & Physics, Univ. Hawaii, HI)
• Beverly E. Griffin, Ph.D. (Dir. Dept. Virology, Royal Postgrad. Med. School, London, UK)
• Robert S. Root-Bernstein (Prof. Physiology, Michigan State Univ., East Lansing, MI)
• Gordon Stewart, M.D. (Emeritus Prof. Public Health, Epidemiologist, Isle of Wight, UK)
• Carlos Sonnenschein, M.D. (Tufts Univ., Medicine, Boston, MA)
• Richard L. Pitter, Ph.D. (Dessert Research Inst., Univ. Nevada System, Reno NV)
• Nathaniel S. Lehrman, M.D. (Psychiatrist, Roslyn, NY)
• John Lauritsen (Author 'Poison by Prescription', New York, NY)
• William Holub, Ph.D. (Biochemist, Live Sciences Inst. New York, NY)
• Claudia Holub, Ph.D. (Biochemist, Live Sciences Inst. New York, NY)
• Frank R. Buianouckas Ph.D. (Prof. Mathematics, Cuny, Bronx, NY)
• Philip Rosen, Ph.D. (Prof. Physics, Univ. Mass. Amherst, MA)
• Steven Jonas, M.D. (Prof. Preventive Medicine, Suny Stony Brook, NY)
• Bernard K. Forscher, Ph.D (Ret. Editor Proc. Nat. Acad. Sci., Santa Fe, NM)
• Kary B. Mullis, Ph.D. (Biochemist, PCR inventor, Consultant, La Jolla, CA.)
• Jeffrey A. Fisher, M.D. (Pathologist, Mendham, NJ)
• Hansueli Albonico, M.D. (General Practitioner, Langnau, Switzerland)
• Robert Hoffman, Ph.D. (Prof. Dept. Pediatrics Univ. Cal. Med. School, San Diego, CA)
• Timothy H. Hand, Ph.D. (Dept. Psychology, Oglethorpe Univ. Atlanta, GA)
• Eleni Eleopulos, M.D. (Royal Perth Hospital, Perth, West Australia)
• Robert W. Maver, F.S.A., M.A.A. (Dir. Research, Mutual Benefit Life, Kansas City, MO)
• Ken N. Matsumura, M.D. (Chairman Alin Foundation & Research Inst., Berkeley, CA.)
• David T. Berner, M.D. (Condon, MT)
• Theodor Wieland, Ph.D. (Max Planck Institut, Heidelberg, Germany)
• Joan Shenton, M.A. (Meditel, London, UK)
• John Anthony Morris, Ph.D. (Biochemist, Bell of Atari College Park, MD)

• David T. Berner, M.D. (Condon, MT)
• Lawrence Bradford, Ph.D. (Benedictine College, Atchison, KS)
• Michael Callen (Author 'Surviving AIDS', Hollywood, CA)
• Melinda Calleira (Pres. Amer. Ass. Science & Public Policy, Los Angeles, CA)
• Hiram Caton, Ph.D. (Prof. App. Ethics, Griffith Univ., Brisbane, Australia)
• Dennis Chaney, Ph.D. (Chaney Scientific Inc. Burlingame, CA)
• Hywel Davies, M.D. (Cardiologist, Pueblo West, CO)
• Marlowe Dittlebrandt, M.D. (Portland, OR)
• Peter H. Duesberg, Ph.D. (Prof. Mol. Biology, Univ. Cal. Berkeley, CA)
• Michael Ellner (HEAL, New York, NY)
• Fabio Franchi, M.D. (Trieste, Italy)
• Trish Fahey (New York, NY)
• Celia Farber (Writer, New York, NY)
• Lawrence A. Falk, Jr., Ph.D. (Virologist Abott Labs, Consultant NCI, Chicago, IL)
• James A. Fimea, Ph.D. (Laguna Beach, CA)
• Harry Flynn, (Author, Hollywood, CA)
• William L. Gardner, Ph.D. (Wellesley, MA)
• Arnold W. Giddens (Shingle Springs, CA)
• Robert Grabowski (Birminghan, MI)
• Martin Haas, Ph.D. (Dept. Biology Cancer Center, Univ. Cal., San Diego, CA)
• Alfred Haessig, M.D. (Emeritus Prof. Immunolgy Univ. Bern, Switzerland)
• John Holmdahl, Ph.D. (Los Angeles, CA)
• Heinrich Kremer, M.D. (Mueckenburg, Germany)
• Hans J. Kugler, Ph.D. (Editor Prev. Med. Update, Redondo Beach, CA)
• Robert Laarhoven (S.A.A.O., Hilversum, The Netherlands)
• Paul Lineback, M.S. (Eastern Oregon State College)
• Henk Loman, Ph.D. (Prof. Biophysics, Free Univ. Amsterdam, The Netherlands)
• Judith Lopez (San Francisco, CA)
• Maurizio Luca-Moretti, Ph.D. (InterAmerican Medical Health Ass., Boca Raton, FL)
• William H. McIlhany, I.R.F. (Beverly Hills, CA)
• Peter McKeever, L.L.B. (London, UK)
• Michael D. Mellgard (Los Angeles, CA)
• David Mertz (Dept. Philosophy, Univ. Massachusetts, Amherst)
• Richard Mitchell, Ph.D. (Assoc. Prof. Sociology, Oregon State Univ, Corvalus, OR)
• Joseph E. Morrow, Ph.D. (Cal. State Univ. Sacramento, CA)
• Cindy Orser (Ast. Prof. Bacteriology, Univ. Idaho, Moscow, ID)
• Hannes G. Pauli, M.D. (Former Director Bern Univ. Med. Faculty, Bern, Switzerland)
• Paul Rabinow, Ph.D. (Prof. Dept. Anthropology Univ. Cal., Berkeley, CA)
• Jon Rappoport (Author 'AIDS Inc.')
• Dennis D. Rathman (Staff Member Lincoln Labs, Lexington, MA)
• Rodney M. Richards, Ph.D. (Amgen Inc., Thousand Oaks, CA)
• Judith Riesman, Ph.D. (Author, Arlington, VA)
• Michael Ristow, Ph.D. (Bochum, Germany)
• Mel T. Roach (Avatar Research, Tuscon, AZ)
• Gary Robertson (Broadbeach Waters, Queensland, Australia)
• Frank Rothschild (Project Dir., Berkeley Project on Bioscience & Society, CA)
• David F. Salehi, Ph.D. (Lake Dallas, TX)
• Caspar Schmidt, M.D. (Psychiatrist, New York)
• Russell Schoch (Editor California Monthly, Berkeley, CA)
• Frederic I. Scott, Jr. (Editor American Clinical Laboratory, Baltimore, MD)
• Udo Schuklenk (Dept. Ethics, Monash Univ., Melbourne, Australia)
• Jeremy F. Selvey (Los Angeles, CA)
• David Shugar, Ph.D. (Prof. Biophysics, Univ. Warsaw, Editor Pharmacol. Therap., Poland)
• Sonja Silva (Los Lunas, NM)
• Ernest G. Silver, Ph.D. (Radiation Biologist, Oak Ridge, TN)
• Lockie M. Swengel (Del Mar, CA)
• Frederick Tobin, Ph.D. (Gorke, Australia)
• Jack True (Clayton, GA)
• La Trombetta (Burzynski Research Inst., Houston, TX)
• Friedrich Ulmer, Ph.D. (Prof. Math. & Stat., Bergische Univ., Wuppertal, Germany)
• Michael Verney-Elliot (Meditel, London, UK)
• Darrell G. Wells, Ph.D. (Emeritus Prof. Plant Sciences, Brookings, SD)
• Wai Yeung, M.D. (Orinda, CA)
By September 1993 the following persons had added their signatories:
• Jeanette S. Abel M.D. (Portland, OR)
• Jad Adams, M.A. (Author 'AIDS; The HIV Myth,' London, UK)
• Patricia Akeman, R.N. (Goleta, CA)
• John B. Andelin, M.D. (Mercy Hospital, Williston, ND)
• Mark Anderson, D.C. (Orlando, FL)
• James C. Baker, Ph.D. (Santa Rosa, CA)
• Andrew A. Benson, Ph.D. (La Jolla, CA)
• Richard M.A. Berger, DDS (Berkeley, CA)
• Robert W. Birge, Ph.D. (Berkeley, CA)
• John S. Blankfort, DDS (San Francisco, CA)
• Dorothy L. Bosworth, Ph.D. (Carlsbad, CA)
• Tucker Brawner, DPM (Savannah, GA)
• Brian E. Briggs, M.D. (Minot, ND)
• Douglas W. Brown, M.D. (Portland, ME)
• John B. Burgin, DDS (Crowley, LA)
• Susan E. Caliri, DDS (Berkeley, CA)
• Ivor Catt, M.A. (St. Albans, UK)
• Asit K. Chakraborty, Ph.D. (Omaha, NE)
• Jack G. Chamberlain, Ph.D. (Berkeley, CA)
• Colleen Cook, R.N. (Wilmington, DE)
• Daniel J. Corson, MFA (Seattle, WA)
• J. Mark Cox, DDS (Midland, TX)
• Etienne De Harven, M.D. (St. Cezaire sur Siagne, France)
• Richard W. DeLisle D.C. (Leominster, MA)
• James DeMeo Ph.D. (El Cerrito, CA)
• Thomas A. Dorman, M.D. (San Luis Obispo, CA)
• Mohammad Entezampour, Ph.D. (Dept. Biology Univ. North Texas, Denton, TX)
• Rafael Escribano, Ph.D. (Dept. Span.& Port. Univ. Cal. Riverside, TX)
• Sami E. Fathalla, M.D., Ph.D. (Damman, Saudi Arabia)
• Richard A. Fisher (Inter. Acad. Oral Med. & Toxicol., Annandale, VA)
• Scott D. Flamm, M.D. (San Francisco, CA)
• Michael R. Fox Ph.D. (Richland, WA)
• Donato Fumarola, M.D. (Inst. Microbiolia Medica, Bari, Italy)
• Charles L. Geshekter, Ph.D. (Dept. History, Cal. State Univ, Chico, CA)
• Todd Gestaldo, D.C. (Sunnyvale, CA)
• Edward S. Golub, Ph.D. (Pacific Center for Ethics & App. Biol., Solana Beach, CA)
• John Hardie, BDS (Dept. Dentistry Vancouver General Hospital, British Columbia, Canada)
• Robert J. Henderson, D.C. (Locust Valley, NY)
• Charles A. Hill, M.D. (Houston, TX)
• Charles Hoff, Ph.D. (Univ. South. Alabama, AL)
• Mark E. Jarmel, D.C. (Santa Monica, CA)
• Anne Marie Jeay, Ph.D. (Univ. Nancy II, France)
• Jens Jerndal M.D. (Lanzarote, Spain)
• Donald J. Johnson, DDS (Coeur d'Alene, ID)
• William H. Jordan Jr, Ph.D. (Culver City, CA)
• Dennis G. Kinnane, DOM (Torrence, CA)
• Claus Kohnlein, M.D. (Kiel, Germany)
• Stefan T.J. Lanka, Ph.D. (Radolfzell, Germany)
• Barry A. Liebling, Ph.D. (New York, NY)
• Michel Lobrot, Ph.D. (Univ. Paris VIII, Les Lilas, France)
• Howard C. Mel, Ph.D. (Berkeley, CA)
• Th. H.L. Michiels, M.D. (Vinkeveen, The Netherlands)
• James W. Miller, M.D. (San Leandro, CA)
• R. Munck, M.D. (Ceret, France)
• Cindy Nelson, M.A. (San Francisco, CA)
• Raymond W. Novaco, M.D. (Prof. Psychology & Soc. Behavior, Univ. Cal., Irvine, CA)
• Sam Okware, M.D. (Ministry of Health, Entebbe, Uganda)
• David J. Orman, M.Sc. (San Diego, CA)
• George N. Pasto, M.D. (Portland, OR)
• M. Dennis Paul, MscM (Amherst, NH)
• Jack Perrine, Ph.D. (Pasadena, CA)
• John L. Philp, M.D., MPH (Stockton, CA)
• Peter W. Plumley, FSA (Chicago, IL)
• Ronald F. Price, Ph.D. (La Trobe Univ., Bundoora, Victoria, Australia)
• David W. Rasnick, Ph.D. (Alameda, CA)
• Richard A. Ratner, M.D. (Bethesda, MD)
• Rogers Reddings, Ph.D. (Univ. North Texas, Denton, TX)
• Stephen J. Repitor, DPM (Oak Park, MI)
• Douglas Roise, M.D. (St. Joseph's Hospital, Dickenson, ND)
• Steven Roman, Ph.D. (San Diego, CA)
• Cristobal A.P. Sandoval, M.D. (Cuba)
• Alex Santoro, M.A. (Kansas City, MO)
• George Sarant, M.D. (Bronx, NY)
• David R. Schryer, Ph.D. (Hampton, VA)
• C. Grier Sellers, C.A. (Seattle, WA)
• James T. Shepherd, M.D. (Port Arthur, TX)
• John G. Shiber, Ph.D. (Univ. Kentucky, Prestonberg, KY)
• Irving P. Silberman, O.D. (Hyde Park, NY)
• Tony Smith, CAGS (New York, NY)
• James P. Snyder, Ph.D. (Glenview, IL)
• James K. Stack, LLD (San Francisco, CA)
• Mark S. Stanley, Ph.D. (Dept. Biol. Sciences, Univ. North Texas, Denton, TX)
• Ralph R. Stephens, LMT (Cedar Rapids, IA)
• Joe Thomas, Ph.D. (ICMR-WHO Proj. on AIDS, Calcutta, India)
• Richard A. Tuscher, D.O. (Portland, OR)
• Jean van Camp, M.A. (New Martinsville, WV)
• Raul Vergini, M.D. (Predappio, Italy)
• James H. Warner, LLD (Rohersville, MD)
• Edward J. Wawszkiewicz, Ph.D. (Chicago, IL)
• Johathan C. Wells, Ph.D. (Fairfield, CA)
• Adrian M. Wenner, Ph.D. (Dept. Biol. Sciences, Univ. Cal., Santa Barbara, CA)
• Manfred Wetter, Ph.D. (Copperbelt Univ., Kitwe, Zambia)
• Derek A. Wolfe, DBM (North Devon, UK)
• L.B. Work, M.D. (Monterey, CA)
• Hung-His Wu, Ph.D. (Dept. Math. Univ. Cal., Berkeley, CA)
• James Wu, M.D. (Foster City, CA)
• Stanley J. Zyskowski, Ph.D. (Farmington Hills, MI)
• Chr. Anti-Com. Crusade (Long Beach, CA)
• Mark Alampi (Project AIDS Inter., Los Angeles, CA)
• W.H. Beauman (Chicago, IL)
• Tom Bethell (Washington, DC)
• Darren S. Billings (Portland, ME)
• Lloyd Billingsley (San Diego, CA)
• David Black (New York, NY)
• Paul N. Borland (Coal Point, New South Wales, Australia)
• Douglas Bowes (Sarasota, FL)
• James Boyle (Alvin, TX)
• Harvey Braun (Bloomsfield, MI)
• Ernie Brown (Albuquerque, NM)
• Elizabeth Burbank (Seattle, WA)
• Peter J. Buxtun (San Francisco, CA)
• Colleen Y. Campbell (King City, CA)
• Eric R. Carle (New York, NY)
• David Carponter (Continuum, London, UK)
• Dagmar Carstensen (Washington, DC)
• Wm. J. Carter (Tucker, GA)
• John M. Chaplick (Haverhill, MA)
• Fred A. Cline, Jr. (San Francisco, CA)
• Annemarie Colbin (New York, NY)
• Patrick A. Cooke (Dept. Biology, Univ. North Texas, Denton, TX)
• Paul Coombs (Everette, WA)
• Bryan J. Coyle (Woodacre, CA)
• Timothy Cwiek (Philadelphia, PA)
• Pascal DeBock (London, UK)
• Douglas J. Didrick (Los Angeles, CA)
• Tom DiFerdinando (New York, NY)
• John P. Doyle (Philadelphia, PA)
• Gil Egger (Geneva, Switzerland)
• Alfredo Embid (Madrid, Spain)
• Todd Erickson (Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada)
• Carl Etterman (Hamtramck, MI)
• Carlos E. Fonseca (Sao Paulo, Brazil)
• Robert Friedman (Queens, NY)
• Arnold W. Giddens (Shingle Springs, CA)
• Cliff Kali Goodman (New York, NY)
• Kathy Goss (San Francisco, CA)
• James A. Grisanzio (Waltham, MA)
• William I. Grosky (Southfield, MI)
• Bob Guccione, Jr. (Editor Spin Magazine, New York, NY)
• Judy Hagbery (Prineville, OR)
• Tino Harikipoulo (Paris, France)
• Philip Harris (New York, NY)
• Byron R. Hartenstine (Muncy, PA)
• Ann Marie Heffner (Los Angeles, CA)
• Jane Heimlich (Cincinnatti, OH)
• Richard Henriques (London, UK)
• Ron & Linda Hiebert (Apo, AE)
• Hippocrates Health Centre (Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia)
• James P. Hogan (Pensacola, FL)
• William T. Holmes (San Diego, CA)
• Chase Hooks (Irving, TX)
• Joe Horton (Foresthill, CA)
• Carroll L. Hoyt (Escondido, CA)
• Vic Humeniuk (Monterey, TN)
• I.U.A.A. (Dortmund, Germany)
• Thomas Izzo (Union City, NY)
• Brian Jacobs (Ft. Lauderdale, FL)
• Allen L. Jogerst (Kalamazoo, MI)
• Christine Johnson (Venice, CA)
• Douglas B. Johnson (East Lansing, MI)
• Edna Ileana Johnson (Albuquerque, NM)
• Creton Kalfoglou (Vienna, Austria)
• Preston J. Kauffman (Pasadena, CA)
• Tim Keller (New York, NY)
• Vladimir L. Koliadin (Kharkov, Ukraine)
• Al Korostynski (Northhampton, MA)
• Daniela Kotev (Lakewood, CA)
• Edward Kowalczyk (Arlington Heights, IL)
• Philippe Krynen (Kagera, Tanzania)
• Sylvestre Kupczak (Paris, France)
• Thomas Kursar (New York, NY)
• Ilse Lass (Berlin, Germany)
• Richard A. Laune (Olathe, KS)
• Lisbeth Lauritzen (Brighton, MA)
• Fernando Levy (Oakland, CA)
• Judith Lopez (San Francisco, CA)
• Dariusz Lakaszynski (Univ. Lund, Sweden)
• Clemmer Mayhew III (Delray Beach, FL)
• Raoul Mazzoni (Reseda, CA)
• Mark McClenaghan (New Westminster, British Columbia, Canada)
• Mark McNeil (Cincinnati, OH)
• Nina Menkes (West Hollywood, CA)
• Ronald E. Milligan (Westminster, CA)
• Fritz H. Mishler (Willamina, OR)
• Clark Molstad (Cal. State Univ., San Bernardino, CA)
• Byron Morgan (Lake Arrowhead, CA)
• Christopher Morrill (San Anselmo, CA)
• Ted Morrison (Park Forest, IL)
• Linda L. Muri (Sudsbury, MA)
• Leah Neal (Austin, TX)
• James W. Nugent (Laguna Beach, CA)
• Jean-Paul Ouelette (Daly City, CA)
• Gerard Pollender (Sherbrook, Quebec, Canada)
• Gordon Punt (Cotati, CA)
• Pamela M. Quinn (Hamel, MN)
• E.A. Racette (New Brunswick, NJ)
• Molly Ratcliffe (London, UK)
• Karen Reedstrom (Roayl Oak, MI)
• Hildegard B. Richter (Sao Paulo, Brazil)
• Dick Rider (San Diego, CA)
• Gary Robertson (Arundel Crest, Queensland, Australia)
• G. Seven Rose (Boston, MA)
• Pece Salvatore (Bari, Italy)
• Cornell Scanlan (Sunnyvale, CA)
• Edward Scanlon (Kansas City, MO)
• Kawi Schneider (Berlin, Germany)
• Michelle B. Shwartz (Oakland, CA)
• Doug Scott (Sacramento, CA)
• James M. Scutero (New York, NY)
• Jean Seely (Roseville, MI)
• John Shaloub (Lyndhurst, NJ)
• Thomas S. Serrill (St. Gabriel, LA)
• Michael D. Sliva (Dallas, TX)
• E. David Smith (Berkeley, CA)
• Toren Smith (San Francisco, CA)
• Herb Snyder (Lake Shore, MN)
• Jeremy Stagg (Warragul, Victoria, Australia)
• Erich Steeg (Daly City, CA)
• Danny Stout (Los Angeles, CA)
• Nathan Stout (Yountville, CA)
• Terrance Leon Sullivan (Los Angeles, CA)
• Hubert O. Teer, Jr. (Durham, NC)
• Hames Thompson (Dowling, MI)
• Charles Thorstenberg (Norman, OK)
• Ralph Torello (Richardson, TX)
• John R. Totter (Oak Ridge, TN)
• James Trabulse (San Francisco, CA)
• Marianne Ueberschar (Downsview, Onatrio, Canada)
• Yahshua Walls (Cincinnati, OH)
• Anita Weissberg (San Francisco, CA)
• Lois Wells (Brookings, SD)
• Jody Wells (Continuum, London, UK)
• John S. Wiggins (Los Angeles, CA)
• Paul R. Zappala (New York, NY)
• Mark Zimmerman (Boston, MA)
• Marvin R. Kitzerow Jr. (Chicago, IL)
• George Milowe, M.D. (Malden, MA)
• John Voll (Los Angeles, CA)

[dddem]

81. I'm glad you brought this up

At the risk of sounding naive, it seems to me that if the rest of us would just get over it and allow gay Americans to live like Americans, with all the rights and civil liberties they deserve (because they're first, human beings and second, Americans); Gay Americans would be less likely to try to hide their orientation, and more likely to feel comfortable living truthfully, in monogamous relationships that are open and without fear; and therefore, less likely to engage in anonymous, promiscuous relationships. I'm not stupid enough (I think) to believe that acceptance by straight America will completely eliminate a certain lifestyle of choice (I know lots of straight people who are promiscuous, and who cheat), but common sense dictates that when you don't make people feel ashamed of who they are, they will be more comfortable and less likely to engage in risky behavior. This is also how I feel about "abstinence education". You're making kids feel ashamed and scared to discuss a very natural process. Teaching responsibility is much more effective, IMO. Just my thought. Sorry about going on so long off-topic.

[lovuian]

57. Oh this is really scary!!!

Poor souls who get this!!!

[Bluebear]

58. A little calming perspective from a noted HIV physician

Dr. Joel Gallant, MD MPH, Associate Professor of Medicine, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Division of Infectious Diseases
Medical Director, Johns Hopkins Moore Clinic
Director, Garey Lambert Research Center
Editor, The Hopkins HIV Report.


I'm a little surprised that this is being talked about as something new. We've known for years that you can be infected by resistant virus, and there have been cases described in which people have been infected by virus that's essentially resistant to all drugs. The difference here is that this patient progressed to AIDS very rapidly. I haven't seen all the details of the story, but I doubt that we can be sure that his rapid progression was a definite consequence of the resistance of the virus. In many cases, people who progress rapidly do so because of their own genetics rather than due to characteristics of the virus. In addition, by talking about a new "strain" of the virus, the implication is that the virus being transmitted in the community is evolving en masse, which is not the case. This unfortunate individual was in the wrong place at the wrong time (or moe likely in many wrong places many, many times) and picked up a resistant virus from someone who had developed highly resistant virus as a result of therapy. It doesn't mean that the standard wild-type virus out there today is worse than it was 10 years ago....

http://qa.hopkins-aids.edu/forum/view_question.html?section_id=61&id=104149&category_id=0

[pandemic_1918]

123. The Virus is New and Probably a Recombinant

ViroLogic put out a press release today that should leave little doubt that this is a new virus. The progression is not related to the host. The virus is probably a recombinant

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=hiv+3-dcr+resistance

[shadowknows69]

66. when do they rename the virus "captain trips"

and announce it's airborne.

[TheWraith]

73. A predictable, if unpleasant, surprise.

Any drug which doesn't kill all the virus in an infected person will eventually be overcome by the retrovirus' adaptive nature. It's like feeding poison to a million rats: 999,900 might die, and the remaining 100 may get sick, but sooner or later they'll develop a resistence to the poison, and then you'll have uber-rats. These days, with many people thinking that antiviral treatments actually cure AIDS, it's bound to happen that somebody who's on them starts spreading a resistant virus. Antivirals were never going to be more than a temporary solution. Hopefully, this new variant won't become prevalent enough to further reduce their effectiveness.

[LondonAmerican]

78. especially

if you have these guys on anti-retrovirals barebacking each other (and other, as yet uninfected, guys) at crystal-fueled parties... all the while feeling it's ok "cos hiv doesn't cause aids." you'd have thought it was bad enough the first time around, now we are actually going out of our way -- knowing what we do know about hiv and its transmission -- and providing the breeding grounds and conditions for even worse viruses to kill us.

who needs bushco and the christian right when we have a bunch of deluded morons in our so-called community doing a better job of killing us than the right could?

[LinuxInsurgent]

83. Looks like...

George Carlin's "mother Earth" is shaking off this human plague....

Really scary...be careful who you have sex with these days...

[d.l.Green]

84. Yes, be afraid, be very afraid! Solution: abstinance- have fun!

Why don't we just make sex illegal? I mean if it's so deadly. Where's big brother when you really need him?

[LondonAmerican]

91. No reason to make sex illegal

just don't be so stupid as to take someone's cum up your arse without protection. And don't spooge up someone else's arse without protection.

no reason for hysterics.

it's pretty simple, actually.

[moobu2]

96. I'm very skeptical of this announcement

It's just the one case and there could be other reasons why this man's disease progressed this way other than a new strain of virus.

He was an admitted heavy drug user for instance, which may have weakened his immune system.

There haven't even been any genetic studies of this particular virus and no other cases reported....I can understand the need to be cautious but still, one case? I just think it's irresponsible to make an announcement like this.

[d.l.Green]

97. "Irresponsible"? To scare the wits out of people? Try criminal... eom

[LondonAmerican]

116. try 'a wake-up call'

but it's so much better to live in fantasy and denial and pretend that none of this is happening isn't it?

[d.l.Green]

117. To the contrary. But it's irresponsible to make such an announcement...

and not make it clear that this is only a single case. The fantasy and denial comes in when you take something like this seriously and don't look at the basis for it. "Better safe than sorry" really doesn't apply because it's lose/lose. Being conscious of the reasons such "warnings" are being sent, solely as a scare tactic- to keep all the medical lemmings in line- is not being in denial but being realistic. How many promiscuous gay druggies are going to heed this if true anyway?

I remember when this was first happening in 1981-2 and I remember everyone being up in arms and scared. What I found funny was that no one was taking the blame- they were looking to blame Reagan of all things. Even though I wasn't clubbing at the time, I lived in NYC, in the meat district, and Dr. Sonnabend was my doctor, I was well aware of the partying and its effects. Ironically the chronicle of this era is Larry Kramer's "Faggots"- far from looking like it was some virus, yet another scapegoat, all of the characters in his book were doing major abuse to their bodies, not like innocent frat partying that most people are familiar with. Trying to displace blame was the largest act of denial and fantasy here...

[pandemic_1918]

128. It Is Not a Single Case

The HIV in NYC is related to a virus in San Diego. Moreover, the virus itself has a series of properties which indicate its the virus not the host. Virus is probably a recombinant

http://news.google.com/news?q=hiv%203-dcr%20resistance&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wn

[LondonAmerican]

163. cases now in san diego, boston, trinidad and nyc

this is a wake-up call.

[LondonAmerican]

132. Ah Dr. Sonnabend...

now it all makes sense. i remember him as well: he had the theories that it was all the sex that gay men were having as well as the drugs. 'exposure to semen' and 'poppers' were his big culprits as well as 'recreational drugs'.

that was the time that the ny native was hysterically prattling on about 'swine flu' and 'legionella' being causes.

lots of gay men died of late-stage hiv/aids who never used drugs: i knew a number of them. they had all taken cock up the arse without a condom in between though - in those days people didn't yet know about hiv and they thought they could be safe by barebacking but not doing poppers, etc.

in the end, dr sonnabend's wacko theories were all very good for blaming the victim but they didn't save a single life.

it's odd to see how you've taken them and used them to justify a pro-barebacking agenda. the dialectic works in mysterious ways indeed.

[d.l.Green]

140. I was only a patient of Dr. Sonnabend's, it wasn't until I came to my own

conclusions that I learned he had also questioned the status quo. As far as he was concerned he was probably the person with the most experience dealing with this "new discovery" in the early stages. He was in the middle of it all, literally. His practice was in the West Village- and he was thrown out of his office space because of the fear from building's tenants- he was the first doctor that this happened to. I don't know how you couldn't agree that the victim is totally to blame no matter what your theory on the matter (unless, of course, it was a child or someone who supposedly got it outside of "gay sex")... talk about denial!

[LondonAmerican]

144. No I don't think the victim is to blame

and I am surprised to read that you do.

my friends who died of aids -- pretty much everyone i knew in nyc throughout the 80s -- were not to blame for their illness or their deaths. they did not ask for hiv and nobody knew in the early 80s that hiv was the agent that caused aids nor how aids was spread. many of them died before there were ANY treatments for aids.

i do think this whole attempt to deny even the existence of hiv so that people can bareback with peace of mind is exteme wishful thinking and denial.

i know that aids is hard to deal with -- my bf is hiv+ -- and that sex with condoms is not really that much fun -- seriously. but we are not going to make it through this by turning our backs on what we know and pretending it's 1980 all over again.

[d.l.Green]

150. Uh, when did natural sex turn into such a maligned term?

If barebacking was the reason I have come to my, as you say, "denialist" state, why bother? I mean really, I'd just do it and forget about it. What would be the use of me even arguing about this? Why am I a Democrat and not a Republican- because I like to think I care about others, not just myself.

Until the "victims" of this supposed illness wake up and take responsibility for failing to take charge of their own health and what got them into this state, there is no other option than to come to the conclusion that, yes, they are fully to blame. It's not easy to get past the hype, but with the internet, it's no longer difficult...

[hedgehog]

100. This entire thread is deja vue all over again

I heard these arguments back in the 80s when AIDS was still called GRID. People are still using wishful thinking to avoid the responsibility to protect themselves with a condom. I can't believe that any American who watches TV can be ignorant of condom use. It's frustrating to watch young kids smoke cigarettes and it's just as frustrating to see new cases of AIDS year after year.

[LondonAmerican]

135. Sad isn't it? nt.

[Cats Against Frist]

109. This is the single most FASCINATING thread I've ever read

And I'm including LIHOP, MIHOP, the Freemasons, Laurence King, Satanic Boy Cults, the Fatima, Colloidal Silver, Skull & Bones -- all of it.

At the risk of offending anyone here, I will just lay out some observations. There's a lot of gay community in-fighting going on in this thread. It's a culture about which I know NOTHING, being a heterosexual girl who is so very into heterosexual culture.

I wish that I knew all of the subtext, however, I don't. I am fairly open minded, and I would investigate the alternative theories -- simply because there are a whole host of things that I don't "buy" from the Pharmeceutical-Industrial Complex, and the theory of our foods losing nutrients is fascinating -- something that I've run into in other theories.

That said, whether or not you believe that HIV causes AIDS, it's still criminal to have unprotected sex if you're HIV positive, without letting your partner know about it. Herpes doesn't kill you, but you're still a rat bastard if you're "non-disclosing with the hosing."

So, some of the bitterness seems to revolve around something outside of that. My studies of Republicans lead me to believe that much of their indignance is jealousy. I think that projection often rears its ugly head in criticism. I just simply don't know.

I am very interested in drug use, as well, and its effects -- and this speed sex thing sounds, well fascinating -- particularly the culture that springs up around something like that.

All of this said (here comes the potentially offensive part) -- why in the hell are gay males so promiscuous? Or is this simply a stereotype? And who does this stereotype suit? I understand that the religious right uses pedophilia and promiscuity as part of their anti-gay-sex manifesto -- but to the rest of us that deal in sanity -- who does this stereotype serve? Or is it just TRUE? If it is true, is it because so many gay males are (were?) closeted that half of them could only dash out to take the pickle before they had to run home to the wife and kids? Is there a subset of gay culture that fetish-izes on closeted males with families (kind of like Asiaphilia with fat, ineffectual white males)?

Is there an identity or something else at stake, besides saving lives, that requires the HIV-AIDS link? Is there some other social or cultural pay-off that has emerged as a result of AIDS -- for those who are infected? Is it that it defames the gay community to have drugs brought so clearly to the forefront?

I'm going to go visit the alternative web site and the meth site, and then come back. I'm very curious about this -- and don't get me wrong -- I don't believe that the gay population is the only population in which AIDS occurs -- I'm just centralizing the issue to the gay community, for now.

[Bluebear]

110. "I'm just centralizing the issue to the gay community, for now"

So is the media. They couldn't wait to splash this alarmist story out there without waiting for some facts. If you look up to one of my posts, I looked into this the day it broke and found the views of a noted HIV physician who basically is throwing water on this "new" supervirus story. Having said that, yes, sex without a condom is bad news nowadays.

As to 'why the hell gay males are so promiscuous', I would venture that they are neither more or less 'horny' than straight males. When society (and now their President) is telling them that they are not encouraged to settle down with one person, well maybe the message is being imprinted early on that their pairing up is not desired?

[pandemic_1918]

152. Facts and Agendas

There are many agendas out there leading to a number of contradictory statement. Some of the comments were made prior to this morning, and were made by individuals who simply were not well informed. The facts that came out from the company doing the testing pretty much sets the table. How quickly the virus spreads and how big the differential responses will be between individuals are open questions. However, the virus from patient zero is unique and it is cause for significant concern. Here is a brief summary:

Drug resistant HIV has been seen before. The most common way to generate resistance to three classes of drugs (19 of the 20 approved) is to enter the cell via a back door (a second receptor). In the past viruses that used the alternative site grew slowly, so although the drugs didn't work, there wasn't much virus. Therefore it took a long time for the infected person to get sick, and there was little transmission. Thus, some had the wild-type virus that was infectious, but treatable, while others had the untreatable form, but it took a long time to do damage.

The virus from patient zero enters the back door so its resistant, but does so efficiently, so it grows well (and is probably quite infectious). Thus, the virus has changed, which is cause for concern both from a practical and theoretical basis. One the practical side, this virus may be spreading because of the number of partners in NYC. Since the virus was formed at least by October, it has had ample time to disperse. However, that part is currently unknown.

What is known is that this virus has combined the properties of rapid growth and drug resistance, so even if it is contained, this will happened again, so its not a matter of if but when.

http://www.recombinomics.com/News/02140502/3DCR_HIV_Recombinant.html

The warning was appropriate, because if the spread just began in Oct, the spread may be limited via contact tracing. If the virus has spread far and wide, the warning is still appropriate because many more will be at risk.

There are a number of hidden and not so hidden agendas, but the bottom line is the fact that the virus has changed, which is very bad news.

[d.l.Green]

111. Maybe because it's the first time you've heard of such an alternative view

on this matter discussed in such depth- thank you, DU administrators. Doesn't that in and of itself beg questions? Why is the press so secretive about this discussion? As a poster above noted, there are many practicing physicians who do not feel that enough questions have been answered to come to any conclusions.

I haven't really observed anything on this thread that would be considered infighting, except there have been some nasty remarks aimed at those of us who are just posing some questions. Hey, I already am in a long term- hopefully lifetime- monogamous relationship. To the relief of most of you, I'm sure, I'm not "out there" having "unsafe sex" with anonymous partners. But watch out, there are many more than me who have given up trying to argue against where the money is. Batten down the hatches!

[Cats Against Frist]

112. Thoughts?

In answer to my question:

Is there an identity or something else at stake, besides saving lives, that requires the HIV-AIDS link? Is there some other social or cultural pay-off that has emerged as a result of AIDS?

The Sex-Meth site led me to some exploration into this "bug chasing" and "gift giving" thing, and it seems that there is a cultural identity of AIDS and HIV, amongst some gay communities.

That answers my question.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

127. see my posts #125 or #126 which are dupes. I'll even copy it here, too.

'Experts' dispute there being any case at all when you actually READ the article. This is really meant to make Howard Dean and the liberal Dems equal a scary ugly death in the minds of too many Americans.

>snip<
"Some AIDS specialists outside New York City expressed skepticism about the alarm, believing that it might be an isolated case related to the patient's immune system."
>snip<
Dr. Robert C. Gallo, a co-discoverer of the AIDS virus and director of the Institute of Human Virology at the University of Maryland, was very skeptical of yesterday's announcement.

"My guess is that this is much ado about nothing," he said. "Though it's prudent to follow it, I don't think it's necessary to issue a warning or alert the press."
>snip<
Dr. John P. Moore, an AIDS researcher at Cornell University's Medical School, agreed.

"If there was a cluster of these, that would be different," he said. "But I wouldn't get bent out of shape about what is literally an anecdotal case right now."
>snip<
------------------------------------------------

TIMING IS EVERYTHING IN PROPAGANDA (that's ALL of the mainstream media).

1) Howard Dean elected DNC chairman +
2) SF mayor Newsom holds large celebration of gay marriage couples +
3) Scary new AIDS from drug-addled, promiscuous, anal-sex, CITY guy
= 'Urban Dems and liberals will kill us all with their dangerous immoral lifestyles and policies.' This ugly mindset is becoming entrenched and will be challenging to correct.

I'm dismayed to see that DU-ers DON'T READ THE ARTICLES OR CONNECT THE DOTS IN THE BIG STORY-

PROPAGANDA-SUPPORTED FASCISM USES FEAR OF SEX TO DEMONIZE LIBERALS.

DU-ers chase every fucking metal rabbit like hounds when the propaganda matrix launches it around the public arena. Don't fall into the trap.

Look at the emotional keywords and how they play in power politics. This is the nasty science of Perception Management used to steer public opinion in favor of the rich and powerful who own our government.

ALL the mainstream media have been CIA/White House-steered since the 1940s during WWII. Educate yourself and see how emotional buttons are played like keys on the Mighty Wurlitzer of 'public opinion.'

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MOCK/mockingbird.html
(Operation Mockingbird: The Subversion of the Free Press by the CIA)

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-overclass.html
(The Origins of the Overclass)

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ST/ST.html
(The Secret Team: CIA and its Allies In Control of the US and World)

http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/index_fr.html?content=articles/doors_of_perception.html
(Why Americans Will Believe Almost Anything)

So why are 'conservatives' and fundies so obsessed with our sex lives?
Because unregulated pleasure in our own bodies is seen as a threat to PSYCHOLOGICAL CONTROL which demands shame, guilt, and fear.

http://www.counterpunch.org/davis01082005.html
This article called 'The Psychology of Christian Fundamentalism' closely examines the 5 key aspects that formulate this dangerous mindset. Look closely at #5-Sexual Roots of the Fundamentalist Psyche.
It is a very deep and thorough essay so here is an excerpt:

>snip<

"The body has become the scene of ethical instruction. All natural functions are turned into matters of intense preoccupation. All innocent curiosities nipped in the bud. Spontaneity itself becomes a source of inhibition. The reign of the literal is born. That which most intimately attaches us to life becomes the thing upon which a ceaseless attack is waged.

All natural instincts must become evidence that the only way to experience the body is as a site of sinful desires. Embodiment itself must become something one hates and fears, a condition in which something evil and disgusting is always at work. Everything that desire opens up in the subject must be turned back against itself.

Sin, shame, and guilt must come to define the relationship that the subject lives to itself.

>>>>>>>>The goal of fundamentalist child-rearing is to create a subject preoccupied with waging war on itself, with battling against its own desires under the gaze of a judgmental, punitive super-ego."<<<<<<<<

>snip<

People, this is the old divide-and-conquer strategy used to disable either one person or an entire nation with the bullshit 'Red vs. Blue' sports team analogy that is infecting our public discourse.

Don't fall into this mindset and recognize the tactic when you see it.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

130. This is also timed for Valentine's Day which is linked to sexual activity.

Safe sex and anti-drug messages are a good thing and this can save lives. The science may be real although it is both hotly debated and highly politicized. See 'WMD.'

Another reason to atleast question the timing aspect is the NYT has been spinning a web of deceit for the neocons for some time. Judy Miller was the Chalabi conduit that stoked public acceptance of the invasion of Iraq, remember?

Here are two more recent examples:

1)Condi's damning comments about the tsunami benefitting the US's PR campaign were edited out of the NYT online transcript.

2)Key word 'Eichmann.' Ward Churchill's comments about 9/11 with this word in them were inflamed into a 'treasonous liberal college professor' story just a few days before the CIA released demanded documents showing they took in Nazi Adolph Eichmann's assistants at the end of WWII.

That's how media propaganda works, with pre-emptive distractions and generating emotions that are greater than the sum of the parts and serve to demonize political opponents of the power elite.

[LondonAmerican]

134. i really hope you are joking

this is real tin-foil hat stuff.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

137. Not joking at all. Very heavily researched. Journalists have died for this

If you are one of the many Europeans who wonder 'how the hell could so many Americans be so wrong about so many things,' wonder no more. They have been fully immersed in lies for three generations now.

Search up 'Gary Webb, CIA, Cocaine' and you'll probably get a list of researchers who have decided to committ suicide after writing about the Bush family.

Steve Kangas, the author of 'The Origins of the Overclass' died of a gunshot to the head in the offices of Richard Mellon-Scaife, one the millionaires who financed the witch-hunts against Bill Clinton.
http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/search/web/steve%2Bkangas%2Bdeath%2Bscaife%2B

Here is an excerpt from his 'Overclass' article mentioning Operation Mockingbird you'll find interesting. Seymour Hersh confirmed this in the 1970s when he reported on Operation CHAOS, the infiltration of student groups on college campuses.

>snip<

The instigators of MOCKINGBIRD were Frank Wisner, Allan Dulles, Richard Helms and Philip Graham. Graham was the husband of Katherine Graham, today’s publisher of the Washington Post. In fact, it was the Post’s ties to the CIA that allowed it to grow so quickly after the war, both in readership and influence. (8)

MOCKINGBIRD was extraordinarily successful. In no time, the agency had recruited at least 25 media organizations to disseminate CIA propaganda. At least 400 journalists would eventually join the CIA payroll, according to the CIA’s testimony before a stunned Church Committee in 1975. (The committee felt the true number was considerably higher.) The names of those recruited reads like a Who's Who of journalism:

* Philip and Katharine Graham (Publishers, Washington Post)
* William Paley (President, CBS)
* Henry Luce (Publisher, Time and Life magazine)
* Arthur Hays Sulzberger (Publisher, N.Y. Times)
* Jerry O'Leary (Washington Star)
* Hal Hendrix (Pulitzer Prize winner, Miami News)
* Barry Bingham Sr., (Louisville Courier-Journal)
* James Copley (Copley News Services)
* Joseph Harrison (Editor, Christian Science Monitor)
* C.D. Jackson (Fortune)
* Walter Pincus (Reporter, Washington Post)
* ABC
* NBC
* Associated Press
* United Press International
* Reuters
* Hearst Newspapers
* Scripps-Howard
* Newsweek
* magazine Mutual Broadcasting System
* Miami Herald
* Old Saturday Evening Post
* New York Herald-Tribune

Perhaps no newspaper is more important to the CIA than the Washington Post, one of the nation’s most right-wing dailies. Its location in the nation’s capitol enables the paper to maintain valuable personal contacts with leading intelligence, political and business figures. Unlike other newspapers, the Post operates its own bureaus around the world, rather than relying on AP wire services. Owner Philip Graham was a military intelligence officer in World War II, and later became close friends with CIA figures like Frank Wisner, Allen Dulles, Desmond FitzGerald and Richard Helms. He inherited the Post by marrying Katherine Graham, whose father owned it.

After Philip’s suicide in 1963, Katharine Graham took over the Post. Seduced by her husband’s world of government and espionage, she expanded her newspaper’s relationship with the CIA. In a 1988 speech before CIA officials at Langley, Virginia, she stated:

"We live in a dirty and dangerous world. There are some things that the general public does not need to know and shouldn’t. I believe democracy flourishes when the government can take legitimate steps to keep its secrets and when the press can decide whether to print what it knows."

This quote has since become a classic among CIA critics for its belittlement of democracy and its admission that there is a political agenda behind the Post’s headlines.

>snip<

If you'll do the reading, you'll find out just why the White House is getting away with murder as most Americans applaud. Media control works.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

139. You do know that Prescott Bush helped finance the rise of Hitler, right?

The big money in the US paid for the rise of European fascism just as they armed Saddam Hussein.

Then they administered the Marshall Plan the same way Halliburton is looting Iraq.

Genocide, eugenics, permanent war, propaganda, these are American exports to the world courtesy of the Bush family 'Uberclass.'

Operation Paperclip was the recruiting of hundreds of Nazis for the US intel services and making weapons at NASA.

Nazis were left behind to be used as terrorists in Europe in Operation GLADIO.

AIDS has been suspect for a long time since eugenics and bioweapons have long been both an economic and military (same thing) tool for controlling the masses. The Project for the New American Century neocon security statement cites creating bioweapons that target certain genetic populations. Not paranoid 'conspiracy theory' at all.

Use search engines to follow this up. But here is the recent embarassing 'Eichmann' story:

http://test.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/536364.html
(CIA Recruited Eichmann's Assistants)

[Cats Against Frist]

147. I love you and your posts

and I'm dismayed that you've included the phrase "fucking metal rabbit" in response to my post. Of course, you may have meant to respond to the OP and goofed it.

At any rate, I'm just discussing gay sex and meth -- which has intrigued me. Keep up your posts -- I'm completely with you.

And your Frank Zappa avatar.:hi:

[JohnOneillsMemory]

154. I posted at a concept, not at your post or you. Sorry! Too much caffeine..

I didn't mean it to be directed at you personally. Guess I should announce that more clearly when thinking about the larger group of DU-ers.

It's a challenge not to personalize the thread culture and stay on 'society at large'-mode.

Hey-I appreciate your input here, too. Your signature quote is amazingly appropriate and I'm gonna copy it...

[d.l.Green]

162. Yes, the payoff has been that the gay community finally realized it could

not survive the ever-partying lifestyle. We calmed down, organized, embraced and finally dealt as a group with the insecurity of having lived a life of being insulted and marginalized with little hope for society's pressure to commit to a relationship and build a family. We found that many of us have more in common with those in our community besides our sexual identities. And best of all, many of us discovered what true health was all about. I owe my extensive knowledge about health to this "crisis". There is no incentive like being threatened with a lifetime of fear of disease to research the very basic building blocks of life and the reasons for its illnesses. :)

[aikido15]

138. Thanks...

I could have gone the rest of my life without hearing this.

[stepnw1f]

149. Right-Wing Trash Alert!!!

Fee, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell a closeted freeper dumb dumb.

[donco6]

161. Just ONE?

I thought the whole board had climbed in over the past week or so.

[LondonAmerican]

156. press is now reporting

new cases of the same strain in san diego, boston and trinidad. :(

[d.l.Green]

164. Scare tactic formula: pick a city on the east coast, the west coast and a

Caribbean island. They already used New York, San Francisco and Haiti the last time around... can't wear the same dress twice.:evilgrin:

[pandemic_1918]

165. Same Strain Only in NYC and San Diego

The press is confused. Right now there are three people with the same strain, two in NYC (partners) and one in San Diego. This is a new emerging recombinant that will probably show up more, now that awareness has been heightened, but there is no genetic evidence for a match in Boston, Trinidad, or Vancouver.

http://www.recombinomics.com/News/02160501/Novel_3DCR_HIV_Recombinant.html

[d.l.Green]

167. See, it's a press ploy. The "truth" needs a little expounding, eh? eom

[pandemic_1918]

168. No Press Ploy - Emerging HIV Recombinants

Its not a press ploy, its a major genetic recombination that is widespread. There was not a match between NYC and the ex San Diego samples. Both were collected in the fall. This suggests that the isolates are independent and represent the tip on an emerging and growing iceberg

http://news.google.com/news?q=hiv%20dcr&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wn