Alabama Vote Opens Old Racial Wounds

[yardwork]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1802&e=1&u=/washpost/20041128/ts_washpost/a16443_2004nov27

Alabama Vote Opens Old Racial Wounds

Sun Nov 28, 6:48 AM ET
by Manuel Roig-Franzia, Washington Post Staff Writer

TUSCALOOSA, Ala. -- On that long-ago day of Alabama's great shame, Gov. George C. Wallace (D) stood in a schoolhouse door and declared that his state's constitution forbade black students to enroll at the University of Alabama.

He was correct.

If Wallace could be brought back to life today to reprise his 1963 moment of infamy outside Foster Auditorium, he would still be correct. Alabama voters made sure of that Nov. 2, refusing to approve a constitutional amendment to erase segregation-era wording requiring separate schools for "white and colored children" and to eliminate references to the poll taxes once imposed to disenfranchise blacks.

[UpsideDownFlag]

1. they're soooo behind the times. it's all about the anti-GAY bigotry now..

sigh.

[IndianaGreen]

3. What do you expect from Jesusland?

The same people that quoted the Bible to justify the separation of races are the same people that are quoting the Bible today to justify their bigotry towards gays.

[w4rma]

44. Please don't insult Jesus's name by calling that place "Jesusland". (nt)

[IndianaGreen]

45. Too late, the name has stuck in our culture!

Too late, the name has stuck in our culture! From Buzzflash:

The United States of Canada and Jesusland

A BUZZFLASH READER CONTRIBUTION

Maybe we should be seriously thinking about this:



Graphic by Dave Ruderman

I bet if we got this on the ballot in all 50 states that even the jesus states would vote to let us go. We'll tell 'em its a moral values issue.

Dorothy

A BUZZFLASH READER CONTRIBUTION

A BuzzFlash reader says, "The graphic presented ... is from a recent issue of NZZ - the German Newspaper from Zurich (www.nzz.ch)."

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/11/con04485.html

[jdj]

71. I think Jesus is far more insulted by these pretend xtians.

[SammyWinstonJack]

92. self delete...nt

[flaminbats]

41. who knows?

they may be on the cutting edge, politically...:scared:

[Mojambo]

2. In case anyone is interested

I'm currently constructing a giant-sized exacto knife in order to cut that entire region away from the Noth American continent and set it sailing into the Atlantic.

"Oh God No! We can't guarantee education to our children!"

What a bunch of backward ass worthless people.

[NYC]

14. Good luck.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mojambo]

17. You want to defend those people?

Be my guest. But spare me your disdain.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mojambo]

19. I'm fine with all the progressives in the south.

I'll give them ample warning to get out of dodge before I send Alabama packing.

I'm no unfeeling brute!

[QC]

20. You remind me of homophobes who tell me they have nothing against me,

just all those other filthy perverts.

Do you honestly think that alienating allies helps the cause at all? Because that's all this red state/blue state bullshit does, you know. Driving a wedge between Southern Democrats and their own party benefits no one but the Republicans, and it's disturbing to see how much joy so many alleged liberals take in doing Bush's work for him.

[Mojambo]

21. This isn't red state/blue state BS

And where do you get the idea that I'm trying to drive a wedge between Southern Democrats and their party?

I'm talking about the ignorant racist fucks who live in Alabama regardless of what political party they are from. I don't like them, I don't like what they stand for and they can go fuck off. Period.

I'll work with progressives and democrats in the south all day every day, but those aren't the people we're talking about here.

[QC]

28. Sure it is.

When you condemn an entire place, you condemn all the people in it. And if seeing posts that do that every day here, written by fellow Democrats, doesn't drive a wedge between Southern Democrats and their party, then what does?

[purduejake]

23. I don't see how that reminds you of homophobes.

It was a statement to make a point... you act as if somebody was really going to cut the south away. Nobody is trying to say that we don't want progressives in the south. Personally, I wouldn't care if the south was booted out of the union. It would save us a lot of money and grief... and I am coming from a red state myself.

[QC]

29. Indiana has supported one Democratic presidential candidate in 64 years.

Not even Utah is that far gone. Perhaps we would do well to cut Indiana loose, while we're deciding who gets to stay and who goes.

Or perhaps we could keep in mind that the "reddest" states have some blue in them, and vice versa, and stop letting the media and the GOP frame the issue by repeating this simplistic little formulation that they, and many DUers, love so much.

[Moloch]

25. Name ONE Democratic politician in the south who even

bothers to talk about Gay rights... I'm willing to bet that you can't.

[QC]

27. You bet wrong.

Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Cynthia McKinney, ...

[Sterling]

58. Great two are gone and one is mocked by the party leadership.

nice try.

[Boosterman]

37. Preaching to the choir in my case

I fail to understand how someone can condemn what another group does and then they adopt their tactics. Logically you put yourself into a box in which you cant win.

[TahitiNut]

43. Why is it ...

... that Democrats who live in the South refer to themselves as "Southern Democrats"? I never heard any Democrat living in California, Oregon, or Washington refer to themselves as "Western Democrats". I've never heard of Democrats who live in the southwest refer to themselves as "Southwestern Democrats". I've never heard of Democrats who live in the midwest refer to themselves as "Midwestern Democrats". I've never heard of Democrats who live in the northeast refer to themselves as "Northeastern Democrats".

It seemes to me that folks who complain about being treated as "other" might benefit if they stopped referring to themselves in separatist terms.

But what do I know? I've only lived in the northeast, south, midwest, west, southwest, and northwest. :silly: And being a non-partisan liberal by principle, I'm not a (big 'D') Democrat, either.

[0007]

57. Why are southern democrats so special from the rest of us?

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

62. Many, if not most, democrats in the south *are* black people.

Along with teachers, union members, etc.

Attitudes like yours are why I have had so many people here say to me, when I try to persude them that their best interests lie with the Democrats, that "Democrats hold people like me in contempt." Clearly a lot of Democrats do, as we see every day at DU.

But hey, if that rush of self-righteousness you get from wholesale condemnations of large, diverse groups of people means that much to you, then far be it from me to try to deprive you of it.

[Sterling]

66. I am not sure they are the people who identify with being called that

I can only speak from my experience growing up white in the south with a relative in the US congress from my home state. I can tell you that there were many people I knew growing up who felt the party let them down in the 60's when they supported Civil rights yet they were still influenced by the experience of the depression and understood that the Republicans were exclusively the party of the rich.

These were the people who went out of their way to identify themselves as southern period much less southern Dem's. Most of these people are leaving the party anyway and may never return at least until the Dem's return to their populists roots or they are finally screwed bad enough to start sympathizing with their fellow man again.

So if there are blacks who identify with being called a southern Dem I suggest they reconsider for the company they are keeping is not the kind that has their best interest at heart.

[QC]

69. As you say, those people are mostly Republicans now.

And since they don't hang out here at DU, those who want to confront them would do well to go to a place where they do hang out. Insulting people here, which so many seem to take such delight in, really serves no purpose other than to drive off people the party needs if it hopes to start winning elections again.

And, as I pointed out below, I use the word southern here in the very literal sense of "someone from the south." If I wanted to refer to racist Democrats, I would call them "racist Democrats," or better, "Dixiecrats."

Frankly, you do not know me, or the work I am doing, well enough to make the judgments that you have made in this thread. I am an untenured teacher in a very conservative place who discusses issues of racial and economic justice in his classes and catches some flack for it. If I were Zell Miller, as you seem to imagine, I would not be doing that. I would just sing the praises of Bush, who carried my county by almost a 3-1 margin, and collect my paycheck.

[Sterling]

77. "And since they don't hang out here at DU,"

Ok if you say so...

"If I were Zell Miller, as you seem to imagine, I would not be doing that."

Please don't think I am refering to you in the same context as the Zell. Unless you like him then you just plain suck.

I think you are assuming white southerners who are not racist are offended by the idea that the south is full of bigots. I am sure many are but it still does not change the fact it's true.

[QC]

82. No, I am assuming, and I think correctly, that non-racist southerners

resent being lumped in with the racist variety.

Am I offended when people say there is a lot of racism in the south? No. Am I offended when people say that I am a virulent racist because I am from the south? Certainly.

Why is it so hard to grasp that condemning all members of a diverse group based on the characteristics of many (or even most) members of that group is sloppy and counterproductive?

[Sterling]

88. No one said you were.

You are very thin skinned it seems on this subject. The south is an ass back wards shit hole, sorry.

You must really hate living there. I had to leave for my own personal growth. If you don't know that you are not a racist then nothing anyone here can say can help you there. If you know you are not a racist you understand you are part of a minority in your state most likely.

When your state votes for something like this you are speaking as a State. People will in turn refer too your state's prevailing attitudes in kind. Take pride in the fact you fought the bigots in a losing fight but be prepared to acknowledge your state speaks as a whole and what it is saying is really turning a lot of the world off.

We all face this as Americans these days. It is a shame we have to apologize for the deeds and prevailing attitudes of our government but yet we do just the same.

So maybe you should not have so much state or regional pride? That is what I would like to see more of is people from the south knocking the chip off their shoulder and stop trying to drag the rest of the country into the toilet because the majority of the people in the south hate the idea of a future for everyone, not just white people with money.

[QC]

61. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, my friend.

People from the south are known as southern. People from the northeast are called northeastern, etc.

If it will prevent you from raising irrelevant quibbles like this one, I will be happy to substitute the phrase "Democrats who live in the southeast."

[Sterling]

68. "Democrats who live in the southeast."

Yes that might be a good idea considering that Southern Dem is definitely more specific than Dem living in the south.

For starters the first puts the southern part before the Dem part ,both literally and ideologically.

There is a reason people identify themselves as "southern" primarily and usually it has more to do with the old south and it's culture than it does geography.

Say what you want but these are my people, racist white folk. I don't like it but I own it.

I think it is a duty for whites from this kind of background to do our best to acknowledge the culture of bigotry and do what we can to change it.

[Sleepless In NY]

47. QC...... what allies?

they call them Red States because the MAJORITY voted for bush. What's so hard to understand about that? And sorry, I have no desire to "appeal" to them anymore. Let them go their own way, as they have been since the passage of the Civil Rights Act..lets stop fooling ourselves, ok? Gore couldn't carry the south, neither could Edwards...its over.

All I want from them now is economic parity. Let them pay for their own. I'm not thinking about 2006 or 2008, because we have allowed this republican "morality" myth to go unchallenged, and if that is allowed to continue we wont win anything no matter how hard we "appeal" to them.

All I'm going to concentrate on now, is how to get these people off my back and out of my wallet.

[QC]

65. Ah, the joy of binary thinking!

If the majority of a state votes Republican then there are no Democrats there. Makes a lot of sense :silly:

Will Pitt is from Alabama. Does he strike you as someone who is not an ally of yours? He seems like a staunch Democrat to me. jchild and Rowdyboy are Mississippians and as loyal to our party as anyone you will ever meet. I have spent most of my life in places that make Utah look like Berkeley, which I can assure you is much harder than being a Democrat in Manhattan, and I'm still fighting the good fight. Are we not allies of yours? Does the place of our birth make us insufficiently pure for your Democratic Party? Would you prefer that we just throw up our hands and get out of politics so that you will not have to sully yourself by talking to us?

[geek tragedy]

73. I admire your dedication, but to be quite honest,

what the hell good do progressives do in Alabama politics?

It's like the tree that falls in the forest when no one is around. For every decent progressive voter, there are two with white hoods in their closet.

[QC]

74. So we should just sit down and shut the hell up?

Yeah, that will do a lot of good. All the progressives in the states where Bush is popular should just sit down and shut up. Let the reactionaries have it all without a fight. That will accomplish a lot.

Perhaps you are happy with the thought of a Democratic Party that exists in a few urban enclaves and nowhere else, but many of us are not. I want to see progressives speaking truth to power in every corner of this country.

[geek tragedy]

76. Why not just move to Florida? That state isn't a lost cause, and it needs

all the help it can get.

[QC]

79. I do live in Florida.

That's because I managed to get a job here, which is no small thing in the Age of Bush.

Most people have to work for a living, and that makes it difficult for them just to pack up and go to wherever suits them. I know that "why don't you just move somewhere else" is a popular line at DU, but it's precisely that sort of privileged cluelessness that feeds the perception that Democrats know nothing about how working people live.

[Sterling]

80. I am not sure what you should do but whatever you are doing ..

aint working. The south is getting worse not better.

Last time I went home I was shocked by the level of anger from southern whites targeted at pretty much anything not in lock step with the Bush agenda.

An entire football stadium of 60,000 booed Tom Brokaw apparently because he is part of what they perceive as the "liberal media" that is trying to make our wonderful president look bad.

[Sterling]

75. Will Pitt is from Alabama.

Yes and I am sure he knew his share of racist white people while growing up there. I am sure he knows some where he lives now too.

But what people like he and I that did grow up there can acknowledge, at least if we are being honest is that it is a part of the culture there that to this day longs to go back to the good old days of seperate but equal if not slavery. I think this election confirms that.

I am not sure if Will is offended by the charactorization of the south being backwards and racist but I am not. In fact I am embarassed that it is true and trying to change it as much as I can.

Why can't we just acknowledge it and try to correct it?

[QC]

78. Of course we acknowledge that.

Any thinking person does. We live with it every day. That's not what I am talking about.

My objection is being lumped in with those people you and I both condemn. It's sloppy, simplistic thinking, something we liberals should be too smart for, and it's damaging us politically. Why persist in something like that?

You wanna condemn the Zell Millers of the world? Fine. I'll gladly join you. But attacking people who are on your side is just pointless.

[Sterling]

81. I think you are projecting guilt

to yourself when it is not inferred. Only you know what is in your heart. But you do live around a lot of assholes.

[xerox]

49. ever think

that they think the same about your neck of the woods? Remember you live where all the serial killers are from.

[Sterling]

72. "Remember you live where all the serial killers are from."

You might want to think that one over for a while.

[bluestateguy]

4. Not all Alabamians are racist

Just a majority of them.

Had Lincoln just let these people go their own way, this would be a very different country today.

[purduejake]

24. Yea, for the better.

[Sterling]

60. I think this vote clears that up nicely.

I don't want to be lectured anymore about acknowledging there is a huge amount of cultural bogotry in the south.

[TahitiNut]

5. That was June 11, 1963 - I lived in Mobile at the time

My father was a Wallace booster, rebel flag license plate and all. It was absolutely appalling.
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[msgadget]

6. And, they got away with it

by bringing up the boogey men, Activist Judges and Taxes.

[billyoc]

7. This can be easily explained...

Talking Birmingham Jam
(Phil Ochs)

Walking down to Birmingham
Way down south in Dixie Land
I thought that I would stop awhile
Take a vacation southern style
Got some southern hospitality
Down there in a southern hospital.

Oh all the signs said "Welcome In"
Signed by Governor Wallace and Rin-Tin-Tin
They said "Come along and watch the fights
While we feed our dogs on civil rights.
Now, don't get us wrong-
Some of our best Negroes are our friends!"

Well I've seen travelling many ways
I've travelled in cars and old subways
But in Birmingham some people chose
To fly down the street from a fire hose.
Doin' some hard travelling
From hydrants of plenty.

Well a pack of dogs was standing by
I walked up to them and I said "Hi".
I asked one dog what they all were doin'
He walked up to me and started chewin'
I said "Hold it! I'm from the A.S.P.C.A-
Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Agitators".

I said "There must be some men around
There can't be only you dogs in town."
They said "Sure, we've got old Bull Conner
There he goes, walking yonder
Throwing some raw meat to the Mayor
Feeding bones to the City Council."

You know Governor Wallace doesn't mean no harm
Can't you see he's got a lot of charm
He's protecting us Whites, both the rich and poor
Standing in the schoolhouse door
Crakin jokes, talking to Huntley/Brinkley, serving jury duty,
getting re-elected.

So I asked them why they spent their time
With Segregation on their minds.
They said "If you don't like to live this way,
Get out of here! Go back to the U.S.A.
Live with all them Russians.. & New York folksingers."

Some say they're passed their darkest hour
Those moderates are back in power.
Oh, they listen close with open ears
They'll help us out in a couple of hundred years.
But don't push 'em- whatever you do
Or else you'll get those extremists back in.

You see, Alabama is a Sovereign State,
With sovereign dogs and sovereign hate
They stand for the Bible and the Constitution
They stand against Communist Revolution.
They say "Its Pinkoes like you that freed the slaves!"
And they're right.

[daleo]

8. Has the poll been analyzed by age?

I suppose that would take...ahem...exit polling. But it would be interesting to know if a hard core of older white voters is the bulk of the reactionary vote. If so, this might change. If not...

[BamaLefty]

9. My Grandfather Lost 1 Election in His Lifetime...

and it was to George Wallace in the race for AL Governor. He is still living and it is nice to talk about the good ole days when Dems owned Bama...

[QC]

11. Who's your grandpa?

Albert Brewer?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

30. And then a good portion of Dems became Republicans when it became...

...obvious to them that the GOP represented their segregationist beliefs more closely.

[Boosterman]

38. Now thats an oversimplification

No offense but thats not why Southern Democrats became republican. IMO in this case it had more to do with the defense issue and the feeling of "disconnect" between the Dems and the populace than any gay or segregationist issue

[Kellis]

56. you are wrong.

Civil rights practically gauranteed the Republicans the South.

I live across the street from an old man(70) who refers to black people as the "N" word-when I first introduced myself to him we were talking about the neighborhood and down the street there was a black kid mowing someones yard and just as if it were the most natural thing in the world he asked me who the "N" was.

The South is full of those type of people unfortunatly.

[flaminbats]

40. even then it was a two-party state...

now one party dominates.

[The Backlash Cometh]

94. And slaves. Don't forget slaves.

:eyes:

[Benhurst]

10. Why those were lovely times in Alabama, and you can ask

Secretary of State designate Condoleeza Rice, herself, if you think otherwise. She'll set you straight.

Why next thing you know, people will be saying the slaves weren't happy in the Old South and that Alabama doesn't have the finest system of education in the whole United States of America.

When, oh when, will this vilification of the South ever stop?

[VegasWolf]

12. Hell, you know that as soon as you remove references to

"white and colored children", from the constitution,
you know you'll find
a dozen reasons that you needed them and you will have wasted
all that time.

[Moloch]

13. That is just disgusting....

I've lived all over the country and I have never seen a place, as regressive, backward and intolerant as Alabama. I am not suprised in the least that the redneck sisterfuckers there voted for this. After all, they did vote for Fob James and Roy Moore. Absolutely sickening, I hope Alabama will succeed again and become the third world country that they deserve to be.

[moondust]

16. I don't want those f-ing bigots to be my "fellow countrymen."

If they haven't cleaned up their depravity by now they never will.

I vote to secede and join Canada.

[Boosterman]

39. So you are going to deport the 45% of California that voted for Bush....

Right? No? why not?

[moondust]

46. Who said anything about voting for Bush?

Or deportation?

As long as you mention it, though, it is interesting to note that the Hero of Bigots Everywhere is GWB. I believe widespread overt and tacit bigotry is the thread that holds the red states together. It's why "Bush Country" today corresponds almost exactly to "Slave Country" of 140 years ago. (See map: Pre-Civil War Slavery). I'll bet Bush got 100% of the KKK vote and 100% of the Aryan Nations vote to name a couple.

Interesting, too, is that blacks overwhelmingly "illogically" reject the "party of Lincoln that set them free" (which of course it has not been for at least several decades no matter how many times Bush, McCain, and others say it is).

I favor blue state secession and adoption by Canada...if they wouldn't mind of course.

[Boosterman]

50. So you would welcome any conservatives

in your new nation once you seceded? How would you deal with any conservatives?

[Sterling]

85. I am sure most of them would look at it as an oppertunity...

To live in a fundie state of their dreams and move to Jesus land. The rest would would probably enjoy the benefits of health care and an education system that was funded well enough to work in the Blue USA.

The list of perks would far outweigh the fact they can't keep gays from getting hitched or invade countries for their resources.

It would be hard to feel sorry for them that is for sure. I would be more worried for our non racist trash Americans living in the red zone. Never mind being a minority there.

[Traction]

53. Not really

If you go on Stormfront you will see that the real white nationalists generally hate Bush and all big-government neo-cons like him. The KKK and Nazis support anti-government, anti-immigrant, anti-affirmative action, anti-Israel, militia supporting paleo-cons, like Pat Buchanan, David Duke, Bob Barr, Helen Chenoweth, Jesse Helms, etc. Bush is despised by them.

[American Tragedy]

55. But I suspect they hate liberals far more, being such moral authoritarians

The militant white-pride nuts that I've encountered do see Bush & neocons as misguided, but even more they regard progressives as decadent and diametrically opposed to their agenda.

Incidentally, there are definitely issues on which we agree with paleo-cons, like foreign intervention. However, I tend to think that we hold our respective positions for somewhat different reasons.

[Sterling]

84. You have to admit he is the "lesser of two evils" for them though.

Kinda like a perverse parallel of the quandary of liberals in this country, they have no voice that overtly works for their interests in the mainstream political process because the republicans had to at least on the surface co opt the idea of civil rights and can only work to marginalize minorities through underhanded Orwellian double speak.

Most of these initiatives like "no child left behind" and "compassionate conservative" are to nuanced to impress the skin heads but they sure do resonate with the smart bigots who went underground into the churches and local governments of the south.

You seem to be under the impression that bigotry only exists in it's purest form but that is not what we are up against. We are up against people who take great offense at being called a bigot but will show up and vote for a return to the good old days of separate but equal or worse.

That is why I refuse to play nice with southerners on this issue. If you are not a racist then put your money where your mouth is and get out and work for change and most of all STOP PRETENDING IT"S NOT A PROBLEM!!!

[undergroundrailroad]

22. Ruby Bridges is my hero:

The Ruby Bridges Foundation

[fujiyama]

26. What we see here

is that a higher percentage of the residents of Alabama voted against racist language being stricken from their comstitution than for John Kerry as president.

And some people think Democrats can and should still relate to these people?

Some people are VERY naive in believing that an economic message will resonate with these people.

And to progressive liberal southern DUers, you have my sympathy and admiration for sticking it out - but don't act all self righteous and surprised when people speak ill of your state. A majority of the people in your state are seemingly brain dead.

And you have to realize that you are vastly outnumbered by these people. I hate to say it, but you'all need to reclaim your region back from the fanatics.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. No, what you ACTUALLY see here is the fact that you're being told...

...that a MAJORITY of Alabamians voted against the racist language being stricken from the Alabama constitution. If you believe that an actual majority of ALL Alabamians support a racist point of view, then I suggest that you're the one who is brain dead/naive and incapable of some very simple political analyses.

Alabama uses the optical scanning machines which provide no receipt other than the paper ballot used in voting. This is a receipt that becomes totally worthless when you understand that the software used to add and store the votes within each voting machine can be manipulated to produce any desired total.

Ask Riley how he managed to win the governorship a few years ago when thousands of votes shifted to the GOP column overnight in Baldwin County, a GOP stronghold.

[QC]

32. Careful....

The mods in this thread are allowing bigoted posts to remain while deleting those that call them on their bigotry. I guess we should just smile while we're being slandered.

[CTLawGuy]

51. name me one

northern state whose governor stood in the door of a school to prevent it from being integrated.




The point is, sometimes a state deserves it.


I for one, if I were president, I would have arrested governor dickhead and thrown him in federal prison for contempt of court.

[vajraroshana]

91. even harder find one that got the black vote after doing it

My black government teacher in high school in Birmingham (a Rhodes scholar) used to say Wallace was an absolutely brilliant politician for that fact alone. Wallace managed to somehow to turn it back around and get the black vote. Politics in Alabama is a very weird thing at times.

This latest debacle is really starting to make me laugh. The people allowed the Christian Coalition of Alabama to convince them that it was all a leftist plot to raise taxes; they told them that the leftover segregationist language didn't matter anyway because it had been struck down already and that liberals were just trying to manipulate their sentiments in a sinister bid to raise taxes.

This is going to bite Alabama in the ass very hard, and perhaps precipitate a state constitutional crisis -- which many people that voted "no" wanted to happen anyway.

[BamaBecky]

34. The Republicans have employed Karl Rove in the state of Alabama

that should tell folks a lot....right there......

[fujiyama]

52. Very true

I remember reading an article about the work he did for various SC justices from that state.

BTW Welcome to DU!

[Sterling]

64. Hmm, interesting idea.

I for one agree that our elections are compromised by these machines yet I am not certain that they would pull out the fraud for something so petty when you really think about it.

Coupled with the fact I grew up in the south and the majority of the people I knew were bigoted to some degree or another, myself included. It was so bad I did not realize I was guilty of it until I left and moved to the coast.

[BamaBecky]

33. Well I have to live here for the time being.......

I think people may have not known what all those amendments were for. The Alabama Constitution is so old and antiquated, that anytime a county wants to raise taxes for any issue, THE WHOLE STATE HAS TO VOTE ON THE ISSUE. So when we go to vote, we also have to read through a SLEW of state amendments. Most of them are about raising taxes, and most people just vote no OUT OF HABIT. I think we could do a better job of educating voters on the amendments. The first order of business in Alabama is a new Constitution. I'm certainly not raciest and work with minorities everyday. I would love to communicate with some of my Alabama peers here at DU, especially if you think that there might be a way I could help. Most of my white democratic friends are ready for me to move on and get over it.

[quaoar]

36. Hey Becky

Another Bama Democrat here. What part of the state do you live in?

[BamaBecky]

54. Clarke County - send private message if you want to e-mail

[sonicx]

35. opponents say they are afraid of rising taxes...

i wonder where i can get some of that Kool Aid...

[quaoar]

42. That Kool Aid is available here

http://www.ccbama.org/EmailAlerts/pr110304.asp

[Rose Siding]

63. AL got $1.69 back for every federal tax dollar in '03

They don't seem to have a problem with people in other states paying taxes.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxingspending.html

[QC]

67. Here's some "red state welfare" you can have back.

http://www.mindfully.org/Air/Army-Incineration-VX-Sarin-GB29mar02.htm

Bear in mind that much of that federal money flowing into "red states" is stuff like this, nuclear projects, military bases, etc. I would be more than happy to send those projects to those who are paying for them.

[xerox]

48. Remember

Wallace would not vote the same way as he did back then. He was a champion for racial issues during his late years as governor. He was even forgiven by some of the black leaders at the time. If wallace was in office, the constitution would have been changed by now.

[Secular-Tool]

93. We can't give up on Red States

Most of the Red States need the Democratic party. Oklahoma, for example, may not want Democratic ideas--although about 40% of us do--but, Oklahoma needs Democratic ideas more than almost any other state.

We have counties with 10% illiteracy, 20% poverty levels, 30% who don't finish high school. We among the highest in heart disease, low birth rate, immunization rates, overall death rates, teen pregnancy rates, divorce rates, drug abuse, and heart disease. If it's good for you, we don't have it. If it's bad, we've got plenty.

Think of us as a third world country that needs lots of help and it's way easier to understand.

I'm irritated with the backward looking ignorant majority of Oklahoma Voters. We sent Tom Coburn to the Senate and Ernest Istook to the house for 4 freaking terms! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!

But I'm not leaving and I'm not giving up.

We have an awesome Democratic Governor and a growing populist uprising spreading from the eastern part of the state where voting machines counted Kerry votes backward to deliver 57 of the originally Kerry voting counties to Bush. It wouldn't have been enough to carry the state, but it is indicative of the fertile ground for democratic ideas which exist here.

People in the poorest parts of the state--just about everywhere outside of Oklahoma City and Tulsa, are pissed and ready for a change from God, Guns, and Gays the fundy churches have steered them toward for the past 20 years.

[geek tragedy]

70. Alabama is a national disgrace. Always has been, always will be.

Not every Southern state is a lost cause, but Bama surely is.

Oh well--they enjoy living in a shitty backwards racist place. They get the society they deserve.

[Sterling]

86. Maybe the blacks on the Alabama football team should quit

in protest. Maybe that would make a difference?

[geek tragedy]

87. I would never ask them to do that. A college education may be their

ticket OUT of Alabama.

[Sterling]

89. True but my point is that to whites in the south that is about the only

place blacks have any real value. They don't like blacks but they sure like the touchdowns blacks bring to their beloved institutions of athletic education.

[snippy]

83. Democrats all over the country should make this about the GOP. n/t

[symbolman]

90. I absolutely Abhor and DETEST that state

I lived there for about a year and near there for another to be close to my kids -- finally gave up on trying to get them out of there ( you see in AL you can get drunk and drive all you want and beat or literally kill your kids and get probation for the death, and my ex did everything but kill them) due to the backwards attitudes of the Right Wing HyperChristian hypocritical legal system there..

I moved back to California only to have my ex (who has BIT boyfriends twice in one year, drove my kids around drunk, hitting TWO cars and getting away with it, got TWO DUIs in one WEEK, beats them, refuses the one with ADHD medication, etc, etc) charge ME with "Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor" - my OWN SON (age 15) from 2500 miles AWAY on the PHONE.

Kid told me he was smoking pot, I told him not to do that but was happy to hear he'd screwed up enough to maybe FINALLY get him out of that abusive household.. no such luck - Instead, while my backwards country lawyer is filing custody papers, my Ex's lawyer filed charges against me with illegally recorded phone tapes (my ex had recorded me for 10 years with my son and I both saying, "whoever is taping us you don't have our permission) -- Both Civil and CRIMINAL charges mind you --

I was in a deathtrap, if I didn't show up for the civil they would arrest me for the criminal charges, and if showing up at all would let the RIght wing, man hating hyperchristian hypocrite Judge screw me..

and she did.. she sentenced me to 20 days in their fabulous jail (which has been compared by congressmen to South Africa) in family court, then the SAME JUDGE sentenced me in Criminal court to ONE YEAR in their county jail..

I brought 5 lawyers in, some local, some volunteered all the way from Beverly Hills California to show up and fight this for over a year, all the way up to the Alabama Supreme court who refused to hear the case..

this cost us our home in Cal, we had to move and get a cheaper home, in the end, after running out of money fighting it, I had to plead guilty and do 20 days in their jail -- the Bitch Judge sentenced me for my "tone of voice" on the phone call (I sounded happy - I always sound happy..) and even admitted that the evidence was not enough WHILE sentencing me..

I laid on a floor in that jail without my pain killers (arthritis of the spine) in LOCKDOWN, freezing (where they put the degenerates and killers) for FIVE days, while the guy in the next cell flushed everything in the room down his toilet the whole time 24/7 - and was making animals out of his feces, biting the heads off them and flushing them.. he was naked and rolling in a gruel of his own shit - which flowed out into the cell bay and was running under our door.. we didn't even have toilet paper, and the other guy in the cell with me was crying the whole 5 days.. next door were idiots who robbed a Waffle House and killed their own roommate who worked there for $60.

They were coated in nazi symbols and the riot squad was called in more than once, spraying the whole cell block with mace (you can only pull your shirt up over your head and hope you don't die), and they screamed and threatened everyone, threw cups of semen at guards who did nothing.. one night I had every single piece of clothing wrapped around my head, naked on a freezing floor because the noise at night was JUST LIKE you'd hear in HELL.. gibbering, shrieks, etc, ALL NIGHT, and I've worked in TWO nuthouses and NEVER heard sounds like that..

I was then moved (because I was able to finally contact my wife - in lockdown you get to move around outside the cell for a whole half hour then back to laying on the floor - in a cell where someone had painted the walls with turds) -- one of my lawyers was threatening to call congressmen so they backed off and put me in population.. regular people - not like the guy in my lockdown cell who was forced to wear a DRESS while in the cell..

Population was a real treat, where people cut each other and bashed one another -- the most stupid ignorant mean bunch of dumbasses I have ever seen in my life.. and then there were the prisoners :)

the day I left that jail Hurricane IVAN slammed Mobile (near the jail) and next time I'm sending locusts..

I still have to spend each day wondering if and when they will drag my ass back there and jail me, or cane me in the town square for NO REASON or EVIDENCE.. you would be surprised what the Court INDUSTRY can do to you there.. and it IS an Industry there..

If I could personally slice off that miserable state and shove it to hell I would.

Some nice folks there otherwise, but you always feel nothing but relief when you leave, there's a tension behind the southern drawl bullshit and that tension is that they are mean and frightened and will stab you in the back if you aren't LIKE THEM..

If I were the President I would declare WAR on that state - once I got all the racists in one spot...

Alabama can go to hell - not really, because is already IS HELL.

I've been through family court many many times fighting for my kids and every other state worked to solve family problems, not CRUCIFY some "stereotype" "liberal from California" and try to basically let them be killed in their jail for their tone of voice.

A SOUTHERN Democrat? They never WERE Democrats.

[VegasWolf]

95. Alabama is doing just dandy reinforcing their stereotype! n/t