Traditional Chinese medicine is NOT harmless.

[TZ]

South African reserve’s last rhino butchered for her horn
Poachers have butchered the last adult rhinoceros at a South African game reserve, cutting off her horn and letting her bleed to death, the chief game ranger says.

“We’ve had rhinos here for 20 years,” Japie Mostert told the Star on Thursday from the Krugersdorp Game Reserve, 60 kilometres northwest of Johannesburg. “She was the last one.”

The nine-year-old rhino at the 1,400-hectare reserve was likely attacked by poachers who hovered in a helicopter, shot her with a tranquillizer dart then leapt out and sliced her horn off with a chainsaw, Mostert said.

“The whole operation would take seven to 10 minutes.”

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/844335--south-african-reserve-s-last-rhino-butchered-for-her-horn?bn=1
This makes me sick. And there is no reason not to think the "practitioners" in this country don't use this stuff either. Anyone who patronizes these "doctors" is enabling this disgusting trade. Just like buying Ivory from anywhere encouraged poaching of elephants...:puke:

[ixion]

1. Yes, so use Big Med instead and send yourself to the poor house...and that's better how?

[TZ]

4. Because Western Medicine WORKS

Please find me a peer reviewed journal that says that rhino horn (FUCKING FINGERNAILS) does anything.
But hey, if you want to defend the slaughter of endangered species for woo-woo go ahead.
Just don't ever post about how you hate whalers or dolphin killers or shark fin soup eating habits because that makes you a FUCKING HYPOCRITE.

[ixion]

5. LOL...sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't

And either way it puts you in the poor house, simply for using the system.

And if you think Western Medicine is in ANY WAY innocent of animal torture and/or abuse, they you, ma'am, are the hypocrite.

Of course I don't approve of killing animals in the name of humanity. Just don't try and say one does and the other does not, for that is intellectually dishonest.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

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[wtmusic]

13. Here.

[ixion]

40. oops... wrong thread

:toast:

[closeupready]

33. Amen.

n/t

[DailyGrind51]

42. And rhino horn works? Why not just chew your own finger nails, they're free?

And, about as effective!

[Ricochet21]

47. I agree

I agree

[Orrex]

50. Does it really strike you as equivalent?

That is, do you think that killing an animal for the sake of a magical remedy without actual effect is no worse than testing on animals specifically to produce drugs that do work?

[DailyGrind51]

61. Cancer + conventional combination chemotheapy = me, alive nearly 30 years!

What has rhino horn ever "cured", except the future existence of rhinos?

[Orrex]

64. That's excellent!

Of course, your oncologist probably slipped you some ground-up rhino horn or powdered gorilla testicles or something while you were on chemo. What else could possibly explain your recovery?

[DailyGrind51]

65. So, that's why I get "horny"? I thought it was just because I was feeling better!

[ixion]

62. Your assumption is that Holistic Medicene has no value...

which is a flawed assumption. It also makes the assumption that EVERY test that tortures animals in the name of science produces something of value. This is also incorrect.

[Orrex]

63. Actually, you're incorrect on both counts

Here's what I wrote{div class="excerpt"]That is, do you think that killing an animal for the sake of a magical remedy without actual effect is no worse than testing on animals specifically to produce drugs that do work?

[ixion]

66. the phrase "magical remedy" is obviously diragatory, and is the basis for your statement

so yeah, it does. Nice try, though.

[Orrex]

68. Do you propose that rhino horn is not a magical remedy?

Do tell! I'd love to hear what you think is the verifiable biological basis for the supposed benefits of rhino horn.


For the record, calling a "magical remedy" a "magical remedy" is only derogatory except to people with a vested interest in passing off the "magical remedy" as an actual, efficacious remedy--which rhino horn is not. For that matter, referring to a "magical remedy" as "bullshit magical snake oil" isn't derogatory either; it's just a fact.

I expect at this point that you will offer some rebuttal a la "that's your opinion" or "millions of people think otherwise" or whatever, and that's fine; let's see the evidence in favor of the medicinal effectiveness of rhino horn, and then we'll talk about it.

[ixion]

69. There are many things on the planet that have medicinal properties... millions in fact.

Some we already know, some we don't

I'm not saying Rhino horn is magical. Chinese medicine is not magical. Just like western medicine, there are medicinal properties in the ingredients used.

I guess my point is that neither practice is flawless nor perfect, and one does not wholly discount or nullify the other.

[DailyGrind51]

73. "Vincristine", derived from the periwinkle plant, has been used effectively against certain

leukemias. However, it took the scientific method to isolate the effective therapeutic properties in the plant and test them. My own malignancy was successfully treated with a medication "cisplatin", derived from the precious metal, platinum. But, it took years of testing to learn whether or not something used in jewelry could also be used to eradicate cancer cells, and, if the toxic effects were worth the risk.

[Orrex]

74. Any medicinal system that relies on magical thinking is bullshit, Chinese or otherwise

For instance, the notion that acupuncture or Reiki or chiropractic deals in the manipulation of magical life energy is bullshit, and any system predicated on bullshit is itself ultimately bullshit.

If you disagree, then I invite you to share the solid evidence that these magical energy treatments actually work as described.

Note that this doesn't discredit the pharmacological or nutritional aspects of so-called Chinese medicine, because these treatments can be verified experimentally and are only regarded as "Chinese medicine" by people who want to give them an exotic, esoteric ambience.


This isn't a matter of ethnocentrism or scientific dogmatism either, lest you be tempted to make that argument. All I'm asking is that medicine be able to withstand empirical examination.

[LanternWaste]

30. Does your concern for the slaughter apply only to endangered animals?

Does your concern for the slaughter apply only to endangered animals?

[n2doc]

10. Doesn't kill endangered species

If we want to do in ourselves, fine.

[Book Lover]

41. A) Evidence-based medicine isn't what sends you to the poorhouse; for-profit...

insurance companies do.

B) I would be happy to know which species have been rendered extinct because the western tradition (not evidence mind you, but *tradition*) says certain body parts cure disease.

[ixion]

44. nice try, but nope. The Doctors and the hosipitals write the bills

and set the price.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. Works fine in countries with free health care.

Not that facts are important to you.

[ixion]

57. Sometimes does, sometimes doesn't

just like anything else... that is fact. Likewise, probably not important to you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

58. Um, no.

Real medicine works. Alternative medicine does not.

They are not like each other.

[ixion]

60. Um, no

But whatever. You've got an agenda, and there's no point debating anything with you.

It is not flawless, it is not perfect, and in some cases, it makes things worse.

[leftofcool]

2. All practitioners of Chinese Medicine use Rhino horns?

[TZ]

7. If not Rhino Horn than they have other stuff like Tiger penis

BTW, how is it that people like you scream about the FDA not enforcing Pharmaceuticals but these so called doctors can do whatever the hell they want and there is no regulatory agencies to control what they do say.
Oh btw even if they don't have endangered species they do use these potentially TOXIC substances..
http://supplementspot.com/health/library/fda-list-of-dangerous-supplements/
Funny how regulation is only a good thing when its not applied to ones precious herbs.

[leftofcool]

12. Let's see, I know three Chinese Doctors, all traditional

One performs acupuncture and the other 2 are oncologists. Neither of my oncologists have ever suggested I use rhino horns or tiger penis for my cancer and I know for a fact the doctor who performs my acupunture uses neither one. And yes, my herbs are precious to me. I gather them myself, make my own supplements and take my own supplements. I also use them in cooking, making soap, making laundry soap etc.... You are correct, I do not want the government regulating the use of herbs. But if that particular government regulation floats your boat, fine. I will contintue to gather, make and take my own.

[mzteris]

28. no - not ALL - that's a pretty sweeping statement. n/t

[Richard D]

11. Not at all

There are also many practitioners of TCM who will never utilize any products from endangered species. From what I've seen it's the vast majority of practitioners in Euro-centric countries. A few old school Asian hold-outs, for sure, but they are dying out.

[leftofcool]

14. That is my understanding as well

[Mimo78]

3. Traditional Chinese medicine is NOT harmless.

I agree, that IS disgusting. There are several species endangered of extinction that are hunted for the "sake of healing", tigers for example. It makes me sick to hear such news over and over again. Men are evil :(

[wtmusic]

6. Welcome to DU

:bounce: :toast: :bounce:

(doing my best to convince you that not ALL men are evil) :D

[wtmusic]

8. I'm a little slow on the uptake

but I finally figured out why rhino horn is regarded by very stupid people as a cure for male impotence.

They're shaped like boners.

Stupidity is not harmless, it's actually very dangerous.

[malaise]

15. And neither are human organ transplants

Some people get rich capturing poor people on the streets and stealing their organs.

[felix_numinous]

16. It is not a black and white world

Some of Chinese Medicine uses ancient practices not applicable to today. Allopathic Medicine is not perfect either, the corporate domination and outlandish prices have created a market for alternative medicine. It is faulty reasoning to single out the worst case scenarios of a complete discipline to dismiss it. We are human, therefore any school of thought, system or religion we have created is inherently faulty. So we need to search for the best tools offered in each system to improve the whole. Please do not dismiss an ancient medical system you most likely do not understand.

Having said that, poaching sucks and has no place in today's world.

[Upton]

17. If that "ancient medical system" relies upon the killing

of endangered species in order to survive..then it needs to be dismissed..and right now.

[Richard D]

20. It doesn't need poaching to survive.

A very high percentage of the materia medica of Asian medicine is plant and mineral based. The few things that utilize endangered species are non-essential and the majority of practitioners, at least in Euro-centric countries, will not use them in any way or form.

[jobendorfer]

26. thank you

It is my understanding that there are a few "old-school" practitioners who use ingredients harvested from threatened and endangered species.
The overwhelming majority do NOT, as for all such ingredients there are effective alternatives.

With regard to the Chinese herbal phamacoepia:
There are two concerns with any medication: is it safe, and is it effective?
Much of the TCM pharmacoepia was written down two thousand (or more) years ago.
They have CENTURIES of experience with it.

Now compare this to the western medication of your choice.
For some of the "older" stuff, like penicillin, we have maybe 75 years of history.
Most of the medications used today are much newer than that. Ten years of history? Maybe?

Think about that.

If I had to bet which medication is more likely to do me harm, the Xiao Yu Wan (sorry, my Chinese is nil and I may have spelled
this wrong) I take to stay level-headed, or the metformin I take to control my blood sugar, I'm betting on the metformin.

There's a lot more room to argue about efficacy for some of the Chinese formulas, but I'll leave that for another day.

J.

[felix_numinous]

22. My point was lost

which is that some practices of Chinese Medicine, for example, are useful and ingenious--it is a whole system of medicine--and other practices should be banned. I guess I was not clear. :)

Just like the evolution of allopathic Western Medicine, there are practices that were once used and now are obsolete.

I am actually agreeing with you, I hate poaching too!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

35. That's why the OP said "is not harmless" instead of "is always harmful".

Not that avoiding broad brushes ever stopped people hell bent on bringing the hay mannequins. But I digress.

[Starry Messenger]

18. BIG k&r

I could hardly read those articles yesterday.

[Orrex]

19. K/R

"Where's the harm?"


Maybe someone can resurrect this dead rhino via judicious application of Reiki.

[eilen]

21. I read about a rhinoceros dying in Mississippi

because of the heat. It was in a zoo.

[Orrex]

38. Link?

:shrug:

[eilen]

48. Here's one:

http://current.com/news/92591378_deadly-heat-wave-6-people-thousands-of-fish-and-jackson-zoo-rhino-all-die-from-the-intense-heat.htm


Behold the mighty google.

[Orrex]

49. Thanks, but...

I'm of the old-fashioned thinking that when a person offers a significant point into the discussion, it's up to that person to provide the citation, rather than up to the readers to find it.

Thanks all the same!

[eilen]

67. I wasn't aware it was significant

I just wanted to share what I heard last about Rhinos!

I read it at work anyway on a Yahoo link on 8/5.

[flvegan]

23. I'm in the middle on this.

Traditional Chinese "medicine" using ingredients harvested from poaching/killing exotic animals is most certainly harmful, and mostly questionable/quackish at best in effectiveness as treatment. However, *some* of it is quite good. We got ma huang (since banned by the FDA in certain quantities because God forbid big pharma lose money somewhere) from them.

That said, Western medicine tortures an awful lot of animals in the development of our drugs and procedures, too.

[superduperfarleft]

24. You beat me to it.

Western medicine is hardly blameless when it comes to torturing animals.

[flvegan]

25. It was bound to be one of us.

Usually just depends who gets to the thread earliest, LOL.

[Call Me Wesley]

36. You're ahead of me.

I just wanted to ask how many mice, rats, cats, rabbits, pigs, etc. are worth a rhinoceros?

:thumbsup:

[Lucian]

55. +1

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

56. Ephedra got banned because it kills people.

You're not in the middle of this.

You're way out in left field.

[Iggo]

27. But it's TRADITIONAL!!111111!!!!11

How dare you!

[mzteris]

29. my TCM practitioner saved my life -

and no, she doesn't use "rhino horn" nor "tiger penis". Herbs and acupuncture. Just a few months ago I was ready to lie down and die, she gave me a whole new attitude!

[closeupready]

34. You just IMAGINED your new attitude!!!!!!!11111111 11111111111

:sarcasm: ;) :hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. Your TCM practitioner didn't do squat.

Except rip you off.

[mzteris]

72. how kind of you to know exactly

what my health and well-being is like.

You have absolutely NO freaking idea what you are talking about.

Do you have any idea the level of study and training TCM practitioners go though? Do you know that there are increasing numbers of "traditional" doctors getting their licenses in TCM as well?

Rejecting research done over TWO THOUSAND YEARS is quite foolish. But you go ahead a deprive yourself of a possible solution to your "charming" disposition.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

75. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Your "TCM practitionder" didn't do squat.

"Rejecting research done over TWO THOUSAND YEARS is quite foolish."

Traditional chinese medicine is not based on any research whatsoever. If it were based research it would be real medicine, not alternative medicine. It's based on two thousand years of scientific illiteracy and con artistry.

[mzteris]

77. you absolutely do NOT know what you're talking about.

You have rejected - out of hand, without the least bit of evidence - something you know nothing of, don't understand, and have never even tried.

TCM is based on over two thousand years of research. How can you not comprehend this? It IS "real medicine" - it was here WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY the fk before "western medicine". In their eyes, OUR's is the "alternative medicine".

Look, I don't reject all western medicine out of hand. But I am intelligent enough to know that going directly to a plant based treatment is generally preferable to taking that plant, synthesizing it artificially and adding a bunch of chemicals that may be questionable, and giving it in doses to people based on "test subjects" that are usually men aged 20-30.

****
". . . Shen Nong, the legendary emporar who lived 5000 years ago is hailed as the "Divine Cultivator"/"Divine Farmer" by the Chinese people because he is attributed as the founder of herbal medicine, and taught people how to farm. In order to determine the nature of different herbal medicines, Shen Nong sampled various kinds of plants, ingesting them himself for to test and analyse their individual effects. According to the ancient texts, Shen Nong tasted a hundred herbs including 70 toxic substances in a single day, in order to get rid of people's pain form illness. As there were no written records, it is said that the discoveries of Shen Nong was passed down verbally from generation to generation.

The first written documentation on traditional Chinese medicine is the Hung-Di Nei-Jing (Yellow Emperor's Cannon of Internal Medicine). Hung-Di Nei-Jing is the oldest medical textbook in the world, different opinions date the book back to between 800 BCE and 200 BCE. Yellow Emperor's Cannon of Internal Medicine lays a primary foundation for the theories of Chinese medicine which extensively summarizes and systematizes the previous experience of treatment and theories of medicine, such as the meridian theory, as well as many other issues, including, physiology, pathology, prevention, diagnosis, treatment, acupuncture and moxibustion, tuina, etc.

Finding The Pulse
Some of the most specific discoveries of Chinese medicine were made during the Zhou dynasty, including the theoretical foundations of yin and yang, the five elements, the pathogenic factors of external environment as a cause of disease and further understanding of the meridians of acupuncture. The basic theories of acupuncture were established and stone needles became obsolete, being replaced by metal needles. Bian Que, a famous doctor/physician at the time of the spring and Autumn Warring States Period, was the first man in the world to use the pulse for diagnosis.

Zhang Zhongjing (150-219 CE), the most famous of China's ancient herbal doctors lived during the Eastern Han dynasty was known for his remarkable medical skill. He wrote a book a medical masterpiece entitled Shang Han Lun or "Treatise on Febrile Diseases". To date Zhang Zhongjing's theory and prescriptions are still of great practical value. It is still used as a standard reference work for traditional Chinese medicine, including moxibustion, needling and herbal medicine.

One of the most famous physicians/surgeon of traditional Chinese medicine was Hua To (110-207 CE) also lived during the Eastern Han period. Hua To was the first of the Taoist physicians, the most famous doctor in ancient China who developed/invented the use of anaesthesia called Mafei San, and furthered the limited Chinese knowledge of anatomy. He was the first person who used narcotic drugs in the world and his skill in this field was ahead of the west about 1600-1700 years.

During the Sui Dynasty, Chao Yuanfang, together with others compiled a book called the Zhubing Yuanhou Zonglun (The General Treatise on the Causes and Symptoms of Disease), which consisted of 50 volumes, divided into 67 categories, and list 1,700 syndromes. This book had a strong influence on the later development of medicine, expounding on the pathology, signs and symptoms of various diseases, surgery, gynaecology, and paediatrics.

In 752 CE, Wang Tao another well-known scholar of Chinese medicine wrote a book called Waitai Miyao(The Medical Secrets of An Official). This book consisted of 40 volumes, 1,104 categories and discusses over 6,000 herbal prescriptions.

The Tang Connection
The Tang dynasty is often referred to as the second golden age of China. It was during the Tang dynasty when China's first school of medicine was established. Sun Simiao (581-682 CE), the most famous physician of the Tang Dynasty devoted his whole life to Chinese medicine starting from a very young age. It is said that by the age of 15 he not only had a thorough understanding of Taoism and the classics of many of its sects, but also had also deeply researched Buddhist classics. He had mastered all the Chinese classics by the age 20 and became a well-known medical practitioner and was crowned "King of Herbal Medicine".

The Materia Medica
During the Yuan Dynasty, China was controlled by Genghis Khan's vast Mongolian empire. During the period of Mongolian empire Chinese medicine became increasingly specialized and the understanding of acupuncture was further detailed. In 1368 BCE, the Chinese regained control of their land under the Ming dynasty. Li Shizhen, (1518-1593 CE) was one of the greatest physician and pharmacologist of the Ming dynasty. His major contribution to medicine was his forty-year work, which is found in his epic book Ben Cao Gang-mu (The Compendium of Materia Medica). The text contains 1,900,000 Chinese characters and details more than 1,800 drugs, including 1,100 illustrations and 11,000 prescriptions, as well as record of 1,094 herbs, detailing their type, form, flavor, nature and application in treatment. This book was one of the greatest contributions to the development of pharmacology both in China and throughout the world. Materia Medica has been translated into many different languages and remains as the premier reference work for herbal medicine.

[Name removed]

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[provis99]

32. that's an incoherent, irrational statement.

The OP is saying traditional Chinese medicine is crap. Which it is. How is that in any way racist?

[Bluenorthwest]

37. He is saying that all practioners of Chinese medicine do

what a few horrid people do, and in fact claiming that assuming the guilt of the majority because of the actions of a few, based on any shared aspect is racist.
The OP states: "And there is no reason not to think the "practitioners" in this country don't use this stuff either."
So, what is the reason to think that they do use this stuff, as the OP seems to insist? Because it is Chinese medicine. Think about it.
It is the same as saying all western doctors are like Mengele, and that we have no reason to think that they aren't. Mengele was a doctor, and headed a huge staff of other "western practitioners" there is no reason to think other "western doctors" do not do the same thing. They all are after all, "western physicians" just as was Mengele. They have as much in common with him as a random Chinese doctor has with those who practice illegal and immoral methods from that tradition.
Clear enough for you?

[Orrex]

39. Part of the problem is that the noble supplement industry resists all efforts at regulation.

Ostensibly on the grounds that it interferes with natural remedies, or really any other bullshit libertarian/opportunist excuse they can come up with.

The point is, you have no idea what your favorite supplement company is putting in its snake oil. None at all.


Honestly, I doubt that it's powdered rhino horn, but who knows? Certainly they've had no qualms about including dangerous amounts of toxic metals.


The problem, ultimately, is that much alternative medicine (Reiki, therapeutic touch, detoxification, accupuncture, etc.) relies heavily on principles that are not only inconsistent with known (and experimentally verified) science; these principles directly contradict science in a way that would say, in essence, "your computer doesn't actually work, and neither does that antibiotic that you thought just saved your life."

[Odin2005]

43. I see the usual suspects are out defending this crap!

:grr:

[slampoet]

45. Chinese medicine doesn't use the majority of Rhino horn.

Most of it goes to blade handles.

So go slur the whole of the Sikhs instead of the
Chinese.

Or better yet. Don't.



OH AND BY THE WAY.......


Do you know what is actually killing off the most endangered rhino species?


LANDMINES!!!

Landmines left from the Vietnam War are ensuring slowly but surely the extinction of the Javan Rhino.

[parkia00]

46. Most Rhino horns are used for other things

Most are made into decorative objects and knife blade handels for ceremonial purposes. Like the Yemeni dagger called (jambiya ?) worm by many men. To have a handel made of Rhino horn is considred of higher status. Although Chinese medicine is guilty of many things, for this Rhino horn issue, you better go point elsewhere.

[DailyGrind51]

76. Most rhino horns ARE used for Asian meds! Link provided

It is from PBS:

"In the Middle Eastern country of Yemen, the horn continues to be coveted by Muslim men, although imports were banned in 1982. The material, whose luster increases with age, is used for the handles of curved daggers called “jambiya,” which are presented to Yemeni boys at age 12. Jambiya are considered a sign of manhood and devotion to the Muslim religion, and are used for personal defense. Yemeni men place great value on the dagger handles, which are commonly studded with jewels. In China, the ornamental use of rhino horn dates back to at least the 7th century AD. Over the centuries, rhino horns have been carved into ceremonial cups, as well as buttons, belt buckles, hair pins, and paperweights.

Far more pervasive, however, is their use in the traditional medicine systems of many Asian countries, from Malaysia and South Korea to India and China, to cure a variety of ailments. In Traditional Chinese Medicine, the horn, which is shaved or ground into a powder and dissolved in boiling water, is used to treat fever, rheumatism, gout, and other disorders. According to the 16th century Chinese pharmacist Li Shi Chen, the horn could also cure snakebites, hallucinations, typhoid, headaches, carbuncles, vomiting, food poisoning, and “devil possession.” (However, it is not, as commonly believed, prescribed as an aphrodisiac)."

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/rhinoceros/rhino-horn-use-fact-vs-fiction/1178/

[wickerwoman]

51. Well, it's not like a ton of Western pharmacology

doesn't come from stealing intellectual property from indigenous people and experimenting on newly discovered, potentially endangered species.

TCM is a huge field. I'm not giving up my magic cough syrup (made from non-endangered roots and berries) because some asshole somewhere in vaguely the same profession is an ethics-free quack.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. It's all quackery.

[Jamastiene]

59. I thought I was the only person left in the world

who thinks an awful lot of the "herbal" and "ancient secrets" types of self treatments are total bullshit. And yes, sickening how they maim and kill endangered animals to get that "medicine" too.

Thank you. I'm too late to Rec, but not too late to thank you for saying it out in the open and letting me know I'm not the only one.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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