All of you who are now in love with Gravel... will you come to the funerals of poor folk

[bobbolink]

who die because of his tax shit?

I'm amazed and disgusted at the lack of insight and concern for poor people with his damned tax shit!

Have you thought for ONE MINUTE about elderly people who live on nothing but Social Security, and may get... maybe $800 a month to live on?

Suddenly, they are required to pay 30% tax on EVERYTHING they buy, when many already can't afford decent nutrition, and their medications???

What about many disabled people, living on a little over $600 a month?

How are they going to withstand losing 30% of that????

Why is it that muddleclass people can no longer even consider what these "proposals" do to those other than themselves??????

Why is it only about YOU?

[stevedeshazer]

1. Will you come to the funerals of the dead Iraqis?

For the record, I live on $9.50/hr.

Is that 'muddleclass'?

Come on, now.

[William769]

4. Take this however you want.

But yes I care more for the poor in America than Iraqi's, So I guess you know which funerals I will attend. Since you want to phrase the question that way. :eyes:

[jobycom]

8. Why?

[William769]

11. Well I can't save the world, So I guess I'll just start at home.

[jobycom]

21. You said you care more, you didn't say you would work harder.

I understand working harder where you feel you can be useful and where you see immediate effects, but caring more? I can't relate to that. Poverty in America is a dream of heaven in places like Iraq. The OP blasted people who cared more about the middle class than the poor. You're doing the same thing.

[William769]

25. Good!

I do care more about the poor than I do the middle class.

[jobycom]

33. Good that you care about the middle class more than the poor?

Or that you can't read a post?

[William769]

59. I don't think you can read.

This is what you wrote, "The OP blasted people who cared more about the middle class than the poor. You're doing the same thing.". Yes I would also blast people that cared more for the middle class than the poor. I know of a good eye Doctor, if you need one.

[bobbolink]

9. Thank you, William 769!!! It's really evil that it has been divided this way!

Back in my dirtyhippiecommiepinkobum days, we supported ALL issues, and ALL people! We were big enough people to do that.

But now, it's only what's "SEXY" and "popular".

People hang with the anti-war crowd because it's popular, and they feel included.

Too hell with us poor folk.

:nuke:

[William769]

16. Some people can be really shitty in their responses.

I could rephrase the question and it would sound like that person cares more about Iraqi's funerals that our poor. Would that be right? no. Some people are just so disingenuous.

[bobbolink]

27. Yes, agreed. It's sheer defensiveness. They KNOW in their

hearts the DEMS have been ignoring poverty, and they KNOW people are suffering and dying from it, but it's doesn't gain them any points to support poverty issues, so they'll just attack the messenger.

Same old same old.

Some things are soooo predictable.

They think if they hurt us enough, we'll go away and their lives will be ever so much better.

Goddess, we need another RFK!! :cry:

[stevedeshazer]

82. I met RFK

He is my hero in politics.

You've got it wrong.

Can't you read?

[rockymountaindem]

52. Bobolink: as a child of the "muddle-class", I just want to say

how glad I am to have you on this board bring up these issues. Others dismiss this tax lunacy by saying they only care about the war, but they don't understand that taxes and economic policy have perhaps the biggest impact of any government policy on the lives of individuals.

I'm glad you don't back down. Hopefully you'll get through to some of the thicker skulls around here.

[Bluerthanblue]

65. "those were the days my friend..."

Oh for the passion, hope, and innocence of the 60's early 70's.

Peace for the Iraqi's goes hand in hand with peace for the poor-


"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" as MLKjr so wisely said.

And still here we are-

We've got to get back to the garden-

I care about the Iraqi's AND those who have need everywhere- Peace is mutually INclusive.

Great post-

for the cause of Peace and Brother/Sisterhood

blu

[Zhade]

70. This is a much more compassionate response than "I don't care about Iraqis as much".

Thank you for showing humanity. Excellent post.

[Zhade]

69. How much real effort does it take to CARE about both equally?

You know, as the equal human beings they are?

Do you not see the Iraqi people as human like us?

[William769]

83. Baiting is not going to work.

See post #16. Boy we really have some tools around here. :eyes:

[Wiley50]

101. End Warfare and Spend on Well-Fare Instead!

The MIC gets what we should be spending for Healthcare and eliminating poverty

[stevedeshazer]

81. That's very revealing

I rephrased the original posters question.

So Iraqis should just be flushed down the shitter?

So let's just kill'em all. Right, William769?

Aren't they human beings, just like you and me?

[William769]

151. So I am assuming with you trying to belittle me

You think it's ok to flush our poor down the toilet. You wanna try again?

[Jamastiene]

114. Good answer.

It's about time we start caring about our own people for a while. I think this country is rich enough that it can spare the poor from insult after injury at the very least. Thank you.

[bobbolink]

6. yeah, that's all that counts, the waaaarrrrrr!

Never mind that more poor people are dying the the US?

I'll come to your funerals when you can bother to write and call about the poverty issues that get posted here and are ignored.

As I've said, yes, I'm ANGRY that we've been pitted against each other.

Give some support to poverty instead of dissing me.

[Zhade]

72. "I'm ANGRY that we've been pitted against each other." You're not helping...

...with remarks like "I'll come to your funerals when you can bother to write and call about the poverty issues that get posted here and are ignored."

May I ask, how do you know the other poster does nothing and ignores the issue? S/he may be more active than you know.

His bringing up the import of the war (and with its faster death rate, it's an important point) is not dissing you, or your efforts, as far as I can see.

(Now, as to the tax issue - what is the issue? I am not familiar with Gravel's tax stance.)

[jmowreader]

116. Link to Gravel's tax stance

http://www.fairtax.org

[Viva_La_Revolution]

2. at first I was intrigued

but after looking it over, and doing a little reading... no thanks. I don't think he would find much support for it anyway.

I like about everything else I see on his webpage though.

[Clark2008]

90. That's the way I am.

I actually wrote a paper - 15 or so years ago when I was in college, believe it or not - about how wrong a flat or fair tax was. I'm very familiar with how it works (or doesn't work, as this case may be).

I like Gravel, a lot, for his stances on nearly everything else. I had hoped I'd found someone I supported, but I don't support this.

However, I do keep in mind that Congress would never pass such a thing. Not a Dem congress anyway.

[Blue_In_AK]

3. My guess is

that plenty of safeguards would be worked into any new tax scheme -- if one could even get past the legislature -- to protect the poor.

[jobycom]

5. To quote one of my favorite movies: You know, there was a nice way to say that.

You make a good point, but why jump down people's throats before even stating your point?

Just sayin'

[bobbolink]

12. You wanna know why? Really?

BECAUSE.....

It's been said nicely MANY TIMES and gets ignored.

Yes, poverty threads here drop like anchors.

So, help to boost poverty issues, and make sure we are heard and cared about, and enlist others to do the same, and the tone will be softer.

Simple as that.

[jobycom]

17. I never even heard of Grable until the other day, so you couldn't have tried very hard.

[bobbolink]

20. You're so busy being defensive and blaming me, that you didn't even

READ what I said.

Try growing a heart.

[jobycom]

26. And you'll find that EVERYONE responds that way. Thanks for finally getting it.

You treat people like shit, they don't listen to your message. You are feeding your ego instead of feeding the poor.

My work here is done.

[bobbolink]

31. I AM poor, little one. GET IT?

As I said over and over, all this has been said nicely, and is ignored.

This is the most response ever.

Start caring, and the tone will soften.

Your work hasn't BEGUN, or this wouldnt' be necessary.

[jobycom]

36. As I said, you haven't said it nicely, and this response is me turning my back on you

and your issue.

I've seen poverty you only think you know. That's my issue. Yours is all about YOU. Some of us are worried about a lot more than ourselves.

[bobbolink]

42. If poor folk would only GROVEL enough, well, then people would suddenly

care.

hmmm, I think Malcolm X said some very pithy things about just that....

bye now.... hope you found your way to the ignore button OK...

[Bjorn Against]

124. I am sorry but Bobbolink has lived in poverty...

Don't go telling someone who has to deal with poverty every day that "I've seen poverty you only think you know." It is just plain cold to belittle someone's personal experiences like that.

[sandnsea]

127. Nicely??? Are you serious?

You turn your back on anyone who doesn't treat you nice enough??

[Pastiche423]

47. I have a heart. I am poor. I am disabled

But for the life of me, I do not understand your rant.

Btw, if you think your candidate will help the poor, you are delusional.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clark2008]

91. Lemme guess.

His/her candidate is Edwards.

Edwards never did a thing for the poor when he was a senator - but he sure as hell helped the banking industry get involved in predatory lending to the poor and middle class.

His actions then say more to me than his words now.

[Sapphire Blue]

103. John Edwards' special interest group...

UPDATE: Fragile X, Edwards, and Special Interests
by chuckles1
Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 06:28:39 AM PDT

Greetings friends.
Some time ago, I went searching for the early Senate record of John Edwards. My reason was simple, I wanted to find out what this man, who was elected to the Senate in 1998, stood for. Here in North Carolina, we have recently been treated to Senators that, when elected, fail to do the people's work because they know they have 6 years to make up for screwing the good folks of North Carolina. Even among Democrats, often the first couple years are spent making up favors to special interests. Don't believe me? Go check out the bills SPONSORED by your local Senators in their first couple years.
So, I did that. I wanted to see, who was it that John Edwards considered his "special interest". I'll admit that I, in particular, was shocked by what I found.

(snip)

S.1131
Title: A bill to promote research into, and the development of an ultimate cure for, the disease known as Fragile X.
Sponsor: Sen Edwards, John (introduced 5/26/1999)

(snip)

S.975 : A bill to amend chapter 30 of title 39, United States Code, to provide for a uniform notification system under which individuals may elect not to receive mailings relating to skill contests or sweepstakes, and for other purposes.

S.1018 : A bill to provide for the appointment of additional Federal district judges in the State of North Carolina, and for other purposes.

S.1131 : A bill to promote research into, and the development of an ultimate cure for, the disease known as Fragile X.

S.1424 : A bill to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to provide the same tax treatment for special pay as for combat pay.

S.1610 : A bill to authorize additional emergency disaster relief for victims of Hurricane Dennis and Hurricane Floyd.

S.1850 : A bill to amend section 222 of the Communications Act of 1934 to modify the requirements relating to the use and disclosure of customer proprietary network information, and for other purposes.

S.2064 : A bill to amend the Missing Children's Assistance Act, to expand the purpose of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children to cover individuals who are at least 18 but have not yet attained the age of 22.

S.2065 : A bill to authorize the Attorney General to provide grants for organizations to find missing adults.

S.2100 : A bill to provide for fire sprinkler systems in public and private college and university housing and dormitories, including fraternity and sorority housing and dormitories.

S.3180 : A bill to provide for the disclosure of the collection of information through computer software, and for other purposes.

S.3221 : A bill to provide grants to law enforcement agencies that ensure that law enforcement officers employed by such agencies are afforded due process when involved in a case that may lead to dismissal, demotion, suspension, or tranfer.

S.3228 : A bill to promote the development of affordable, quality rental housing in rural areas for low-income households.

Take a look at those bills. Affordable housing, hurricane relief, Fragile X, "special pay" tax relief for soldiers, heck even junk mail protection, and spyware protection. All of them are aimed at helping people. There are other bills he Sponsored, you can go see them, most are import tariff exemptions for our FORMER textile mills, the ones that are now gone to foreign countries. Again, all his bills are aimed at helping people like us, workers, citizens, voters. They aren't aimed ONLY at the business community, they ARE handouts to his special interest group - people.

Caring about people. It isn't new, it isn't something he is doing for his Presidential race, it is something he has always done, even when the heat WASN'T on him. I like that.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/3/26/92758/1809

UNC-Chapel Hill creates Center on Poverty, Work and Opportunity;
names former Sen. John Edwards as director

CHAPEL HILL -- The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill is launching a Center on Poverty, Work and Opportunity that will be led by former U.S. Senator and vice presidential candidate John Edwards.

The Center on Poverty, Work and Opportunity will be a nonpartisan initiative, bringing together UNC-Chapel Hill faculty and other national public policy experts to examine innovative and practical ideas for moving more Americans out of poverty and into the middle class. The center will have an advisory committee of senior faculty representing multiple disciplines across campus. In addition to leading the center, Edwards also will serve as a guest lecturer on campus.

"John Edwards is a distinguished Carolina alumnus, and we are delighted that he will return to campus to bring together today’s best minds to focus on issues that affect us all," Chancellor James Moeser said.

Edwards spent six years in the U.S. Senate. In that time, he championed policy initiatives such as raising the minimum wage, expanding the earned income tax credit, creating matching savings accounts for low-income families, and providing incentives for teachers to teach in low-income schools. Edwards also focused on poverty during last year’s presidential campaign.

"The time I spent at Chapel Hill gave me many of the tools I have used all my life to help those who are struggling, and I am so proud that I will be able to continue this work and also give something back to UNC-Chapel Hill," Edwards said. "As director of the center, I will work to explore creative approaches to the difficulties that families in poverty face every day."

Continued @ http://www.unc.edu/news/archives/feb05/edwards020405.html

A book from the Center on Poverty, Work, and Opportunity, John Edwards, founding director (and director until announcing his 08 candidacy), and editor of the book: Ending Poverty in America: How to Restore the American Dream: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x661959


John Edwards, Cleaning Up in New Orleans: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5285938


Working w/UNITE HERE & SEIU: http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2006/05/john_edwards_labors_darling.html


College for Everyone: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=689280&mesg_id=689280


John Edwards on the ISSUES: http://johnedwards.com/about/issues


And...

Transformational Change For America And The World - JOHN EDWARDS 08


"I'm proposing we set a national goal of eliminating poverty in the next 30 years." - JOHN EDWARDS 08


Silence is Betrayal - JOHN EDWARDS 08

[sandnsea]

125. That was plenty nice enough

Any nicer and it would have been completely ignored. Why did you choose to chastise instead of listen to the passion behind the complaint? Is the language someone uses to cry for help really more important than the actual plea??

[Mz Pip]

7. I wouldn't get to upset over this

Gravel has no chance of being our nominee. He brings some excitement to the mix but has no chance in hell of winning. Zero.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[bobbolink]

13. Of course I won't get upset. It's only a matter of a few deaths, afterall.

:nuke:

thanks for caring....

[Mz Pip]

35. No one has died

because of a flat tax because we don't have a flat tax and probably never will.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[bobbolink]

40. for gawd's sake, poor people and homeless people are dying all the time.

It will only get WORSE with these crackpot schemes!

I thought Clinton's welfare deform wouldn't pass, either, but people DIED from that.

Not that it matters.

[Zhade]

74. ...but not from the non-existent flat tax. You know, the one we thankfully don't have.

Now, things like Clinton's welfare "reform", absolutely - and you're right to be enraged. Every democratic person should be!

It does matter, but hyperbole about a scheme that doesn't exist and won't pass (because it's not in Congress at the moment) is wasted effort.

[bobbolink]

133. By all means, lets WAIT until it is passed before raising a ruckus.

That worked so well with the welfare deform...

which people died from, BTW.

Does that matter?

[elocs]

18. The very exact thing may be said about Dennis Kucinich.

He, too, has some great ideas, but zero chance of getting the nomination or less than that (is that possible?) of getting elected. But people here get wildly unrealistic and orgasmic over his chances and will go into a frenzy if you say he doesn't have a chance.

[hfojvt]

37. to include a link

The OP is talking about this:
http://www.gravel2008.us/fair_tax

To me, that does not bring any excitement to the mix. It is alot of the same old Republican anti-tax shite. He calls a sales tax progressive. :wtf: Says because the wealthy spend more they will pay more. Uh, dude that's not what progressive means. Progressive is about the percent a person pays, not about the total amount. It also sounds like the Kansas system. In Kansas, they do the unthinkable - they charge sales tax on food!!! However, they provide a food sales tax rebate for low income people. Except they don't. They give the rebate to low income people who a) are over 55, or b) have children. If you are a childless person under 55, you will not get a rebate even if you make less money than somebody over 55 who gets a rebate. Here a 55 year old person making $25,799 gets $36 (which first of all, implies that he will only spend $480 on food in a year and second, is the same amount that a person making $12,901 gets). Thirdly, I make $11,000 and get nothing because I am only 45.

In sum: his plan there is
a) poorly thought out and peppered with inaccuracies
b) repeats alot of Republican anti-tax spin points
c) would be a windfall for the rich and a burden to the middle class and poor.

All in all, on a scale of one to ten, I give it 9 thumbs down
:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

[Mz Pip]

49. I suppose by "excitement"

I meant that he stirs up the pot. His comment about being frightened of some of the people on the stage with him is about the only thing I clearly remember from the debates. The flat tax position is a non starter. It didn't even get Forbes very far when he ran for President way back when.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Toots]

66. I think his plan excluded medicine, non-prepared food and housing

That would pretty much cut down on taxes paid but one good thing about it is crooks would have to pay on their ill-gained money. IMO most Republicans are against taxes so they figure every possible legal, and in a lot of cases illegal, means of getting out of paying. I think if applied properly and it was the one and only tax paid the middle class and lower would come off much better. Just think how much under the table money is being spent right now that isn't taxed.....Think how much good that money could do...Try not to dismiss this out of hand...

[hfojvt]

76. that money still would not be taxed

How would you collect sales tax on under the table money?

This supposed 'fair tax' is just another Republican scheme for reducing their tax bill and dumping it on others. That's why I am dismissing it.

[Toots]

102. Money is absolutely worthless until you spend it

If a person were to be taxed upon spending the money instead of upon earning it a lot more money would end up being taxed. Are you under the impression that illegal oney is never spent? If unprepared food, medicine, and housing were never taxed at all that would illiminate taxes upon the very poor and most taxes on the middle class. The ones that spend the most pay the most but it would have to cover everything including stocks and bonds and office buildings etc.....There would be no "loopholes" other than the ones mentioned.

[hfojvt]

104. money is worth even less until you earn it

I was under the impression that the same amount of money could be spent illegally as is currently earned illegally. My drug dealer, my babysitter, my prostitute, the guy who cuts my grass for cash, etc. - none of those people are going to be charging, or collecting sales tax. Furthermore, unless all transaction take place on credit cards, the government has no way of tracking things. I could sell $100 worth of merchandise, collect $30 sales tax, and report sales of only $40 to the government.

And Gravel does not make exceptions for housing, unprepared food, or medicine. He specifically said that there should be no exceptions. But I am guessing there would be an exception for stocks and bonds, since those are not 'purchases', they are 'investments'. You cannot tax a bond purchase any more than you can tax the 'purchase' of a CD at a bank.

[jmowreader]

119. Tell me why crooks would pay sales tax on their ill-gotten gains

Under "FairTax":

If you buy used merchandise you don't pay sales tax. A year-old Lexus is still a very nice car.

If you buy stolen merchandise--and someone who has "ill-gotten gains" won't have any compunction about doing this--you don't pay sales tax.

If you buy something from a private party, it is considered a used item and, hence, isn't subject to sales tax.

There's no sales tax on drugs. None on hookers. None on bootleg liquor.

The number of problems associated with the so-called FairTax is unbelievably high.

[peacebird]

10. wow - a bit harsh, no? Can't we be excited by someone willing to take on the frontrunners?

Aren't we allowed to be revved up by a truly and honestly p'od politician who talks hard truth to the top tier? Good grief - at least he's a Dem with fire in his belly - and that can only be good for us, he's getting topics thrown out into the discourse that others might prefer stayed in code speak. "All options remain on the table for Iran" being one of them.

Chill, or you'll explode long before Nov 2009.... It's going to be a very long ride....

[bobbolink]

15. Sure, be excited all you want. It's only poor people, after all.

Thank you for caring.

:eyes:

[peacebird]

19. bite me bobbo - you know NOTHING about my efforts locally to help less fortunate folk

Seriously get off your freaking high horse - Gravel has no chance of winning but he CAN fire up the debate.

That is what I like about him, as for your whining that anyone excited by Gravel MUST by default be born with a silver spoon and despise the poor -

:wtf:
what a total crock.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[peacebird]

32. LOL! you attack ME and then claim to be the victim. Nice.

:eyes:

[bobbolink]

56. I forgot, "Bite me" isn't an attack.

In DUworld, that's a kiss on the cheek.

How could I have forgotten.....

Oh yeah, and PEACE to you....birdie

:rofl:

[hfojvt]

109. I think they took the insinuation that they don't care about poor people

to be an attack. It isn't if you include some qualifiers - "IF you support this, then you APPARENTLY do not care about poor people" Absent the 'If' and 'apparently' it reads as a direct accusation - you do not care about poor people.

[BlooInBloo]

14. Such sheep - say a few pretty words and all of the DU herds come'a'runnin'

[libnnc]

23. I know. I hate all our candidates

Fuck all of 'em. Lying sacks O shit the whole lot of them.

I ain't no sheep. :sarcasm:





Who's your candidate, btw? Do you actually have one or are you just DU's professional curmudgeon?

You'd better pace yourself this primary season. I don't know if your bladder is big enough to piss in everyone's bowl of Wheaties until the convention.

[BlooInBloo]

38. Por moi? Gore. Or else a 3-sided coin to decide between Obama, Clinton, Edwards....

I'm happy with being a professional curmudgeon though!

:)

[libnnc]

44. You should stay hydrated.

Hate for you to run outta piss.

[BlooInBloo]

45. Aye aye, mon capitan!

[Clark2008]

92. What's the female equivilant of a curmudgeon?

That'd be me. :)

I don't much care for the three-sided coin, either.

:hi:

[undergroundpanther]

24. For alot of people it IS about them

I am one of those disabled people living on a little over 600 a month. I like Gravel's fierce attitude about stopping the war but his tax shit is wrong and shows his disconnection from the reality poor people face.That is why I support Kucinich.
I am tired of rich people who have no connection to what it is like to be poor NOW running this government,In fact I hate the ruling class and I think they need to feel the pinch more than everyone else. Progressive taxation is important,it means to TAX THE WEALTHY more than the poor.The wealthy have more to spare and are able to afford the basics already so by sane logic if you want society to be free of revolts calling for the heads of the well off, It would be wise the rich pay more to others who have less so they too can live.Once the wealthy are allowed by the citizens and social conditioning of greed as good,leading people to think it's all about themselves and not care about the poor that's when civilization is starting to die.And Ours is near death on life support one more rich thug playing as if he was a man of the common people while stealing more money through taxes from the have less or have nothings and the plug might fall out of the wall.

[bobbolink]

39. I agree, but will add, I'm *tired* of muddleclass people who have lost compassion!

It's only about *THEM* now. Muddleclass people *used* to know from whence they came, and didn't turn their backs on poor folk.

All that has now changed, and you see how few actually give a rip.

It's nearly impossible to keep your head up when dealing with grinding poverty over time, as you well know. My thoughts will be with you, and hope that things improve. The isolation we feel among liberals is *very* painful, but that isn't too likely to change. :cry:

As for Kucinich, I worked hard on his campaign in 04, but he dropped poverty, and his supporters no longer gave a rip, either. He doesn't talk about it, he doesn't work on it, and his lack of leadership on this issue shows in his campaign, because all they can talk about is the waaaarrrrrrr.

I saw Dennis and Elizabeth in person, and talked to them personally, but nothing registered. He no longer cares.

So, my energy, what little there is, will go to Edwards, because he cares DEEPLY, and profoundly, and, as I posted elsewhere, pushes other Dems to start caring about poverty.

[ecstatic]

28. I thought you were going to say who die when another repub gets in office

Because Gravel doesn't have a chance of winning and to waste time and resources promoting him takes away from the other candidates...

[melm00se]

29. I am guessing that you have not actually

reviewed the Fair Tax proposal itself but rather relied on the inaccurate reporting and speculation on it.

The Fair Tax proposal removes the existing federal tax rates and levies and replaces it with a 23% (not 30%) sales tax rate on the retail sales for personal consumption for new goods and services.

Now, as to the elderly people living on nothing but Social Security and your fears that they will not be able to afford decent nutrition and medications. The current proposal in front of Congress (HR 25) allows for rebate, paid in advance, of the sales tax based upon the federal poverty levels. So, in essence, the elderly people who are living on nothing than $800 per month, effectively would pay no federal taxes.

I might recommend that you review Gravel's page on this:
http://www.gravel2008.us/fair_tax
as well as the plain english summary of the proposal at the FairTax.org site:
http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/PlainEnglishSummary_TheFairTaxAct2007.pdf

Until I saw and understood the "prebate" feature of this plan I was not even vaguely interested in the proposal, but now I am open to giving it a fair and equitable hearing, analysis and review and in some ways excited about it.

[Mojorabbit]

43. It would be

lovely not to have to fill out a gazillion forms every year and if there are built in exceptions to help those that are in need then I am all for it.

[Lars39]

54. So when my county and state sales tax is added in,

people in my county would be paying more than 30% sales tax. These are people that would probably get some kind of a refund on their income taxes.
Sales tax are regressive and hurt the poor and lower middle class the worst. Once in place, the national sales tax would have nowhere to go but up.
This idea needs to be dumped once and for all.

[bobbolink]

58. Tell it to those who don't have an address.

THINK.

It only hurts for a little while.

[melm00se]

64. be open to new ideas

and new ways of doing things.

It only hurts for a little while.

[IronLionZion]

156. Change is inevitable

The world changes whether we want it to or not so we have to adapt or maybe we really will drop dead. Benevolent nonprofit organizations (which exist already) will step up and facilitate in getting these people mailing addresses, social security numbers, filling the forms out, and whatever else they need. I plan to be a part of the solution.

Bad things happen but good things are done every day by good people. We can always use more good people doing good things.

It's hard to think rationally when there is alarmist nonsense about people hypothetically dropping dead.

[sandnsea]

128. And those who don't qualify

like those who don't qualify for health care or housing, will have a 23% burden placed on them with no additional relief at all.

Nobody seems to understand it isn't just those with a poverty level income who live in poverty. If you make twice as much as the poverty level, but don't get any assistance, then you're still living in poverty.

Flat Tax sucks. It would destroy 1/3 of the population.

[melm00se]

147. every one qualifies for the prebate n/t

[IronLionZion]

155. Facts have no place here, reality has a well-known liberal bias

:sarcasm:

Of course taking the time to read up on the plan and why Gravel supports it and what he has planned for helping the elderly/poor would be the sensible way to go about this. Discussing the merits and flaws of the proposal would be sensible. Who wants to be sensible?

But evoking the passions of people by saying they will die without providing any connection to that or any meaningful evidence whatsoever is guaranteed to get more attention. This sounds kind of like the wingnuts on guns, God, and gays. Because well, you know if the Dems win, Al Gore will personally take your gun, close your church, abort your unborn child against your will, and put a gay man in your bed. Because as sure as war is peace, black is white, and up is down, the Dems will trigger the apocalypse tomorrow morning before breakfast.

God help us.

[Sanctified]

30. Have you read his proposal.

From his website:

The PREBATE

One of the most exciting features of the Fair Tax is the monthly payments to individuals and/or families to reimburse them for the tax they pay on the essentials of life (food, shelter, clothing, medicine). The amount of the Prebate is calculated by multiplying the cost of essentials by the tax rate. The resulting tax is divided into 12 equal payments and sent on the first of each month to consumers who have registered annually for the program. The progressiveness of the Fair Tax can be determined by adjusting the amounts selected for the prices paid for essentials, which should not be taxed in the first place. However, giving these essentials an exception from the sales tax opens the door for wealth to game the system and we are back with the problems we have in the income tax system.

http://www.gravel2008.us/fair_tax

Currently poor people pay 10-15% of their income in taxes and they don't get the money back till the following year.

[hfojvt]

46. apparently he is stupid enough

to think this will replace his regressivity, and also that he can administer such a program without a bureaucracy about the size of the IRS. Gee Mister, won't we have to file a 1040 to prove that we are eligible for the prebate?

[melm00se]

50. not really

if this prebate applies to all individuals and families, all you would have to do is prove that you have X number of people in your household and that would automatically receive the prebate.

[bobbolink]

61. And all these shemes have worked so well in the past....

until a republican majority comes along and cancels them all...

Geeeee, that could never happen, could it??????

And what about those WITHOUT AN ADDRESS?

Nobody has addressed that at all.

[Strelnikov_]

106. A National Sales Tax would entail more cost to enforce than the income tax system

and ultimately would probably eliminate paper money.

Per Krugman:

KUDLOW: Paul, why not go to a national sales tax, which would allow to us abolish the incredible-crazed income tax and maybe even, if not get rid of the IRS, slim it down by about 6,000 pages? How about a national sales tax?

Prof. KRUGMAN: Well, you know, the only way to make a national sales tax really work is--and, you know, you probably--I suspect you know more than you're letting on. The only actual practical way to do that is a value-added tax, which is what, you know, most European countries rely on a lot. And the funny thing about that is, although it doesn't require as big an IRS, it actually imposes paperwork burdens on business that are a lot bigger. The actual enforcement collection cost of VATs is much higher than our system. Our system runs on very few resources compared to what most other countries do because we have an income tax that, at least historically, people have tended to pay because we have been relatively honest. If that's going away, which is one of the things David Cay Johnson talks about a lot, then that's a real concern.

And per David Cay Johnson, in order to have any chance of enforcement, a National Sales Tax would require all transactions to be conducted electronically (debit/credit cards) (obviously to counter the inevitable black market economy).

About 28:20

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7898658

Bottom line, if so-called Progressives want to implement an Oligarchs wet dream, so be it. I am having trouble locating articles that address what I have heard and read guys like Krugman, Johnson and Barlett/Steele address over the years regarding a flat/sales tax replacement of the current system. Fuck it, don't have the time to waste. Not that any amount of argument would sway those jumping on the Oligarchs bandwagon anyway.

Per Barlett/Steele:

Their solution: a massive rewrite and simplification of the existing progressive tax structure, elimination of special-interest provisions, and vigorous enforcement.

[bobbolink]

51. Have you ever actually experienced that shit?

Do you know how many things start off with "rebates", then it's cut and there goes that wonderful idea?

How do people make it until that "rebate" even gets to them?????

What about people who DON'T HAVE AN ADDRESS?????

How about thinking of others who are barely staying alive?

[Sanctified]

57. It's a Prebate not a Rebate

Thus they get the money before they spend it. Also this would do wonders for our current consumption culture this may cause people to really contemplate their next purchase instead of impulse buying and the tax would not affect used goods so more people are going to be buying used products instead of brand spanking new.

I would much rather have this tax system over the current one which takes 10-15% from the poor off of their labor and then gives it back at the end of the year. If people have 10-15% more of their money they can afford more food, more health care and more goods.

[bobbolink]

60. And those who have no address can die in your front yard?

Of course you'd rather have it.

IT's best for YOU.

[Sanctified]

62. How many people without Addresses

Do major grocery shopping, pay for medication or other goods?

[bobbolink]

63. Did you just fall off the turnup truck???

Have you ever heard of homeless people?????

THey don't buy food, ever???

Or it just doesn't matter to you?

[Sanctified]

67. When was the last time you saw

A homeless person pushing a grocery cart full of groceries? There are more people who make $10,000-$20,000 a year who would greatly benefit by being able to keep $1,000 to $2,000 a year over the number of homeless who would have to pay .92 in tax on a $4.00 purchase.

[Bluerthanblue]

71. I'm sorry to disillusion you- but you'd be surprised how

much money people without shelter have to put out to simply survive- People who go to work in the am, and sleep under bridges in tents and cold weather shelters at night-

Imagine if you will, how would you "store" anything ???
Sure, stocking up on essentials when they are on sale, shopping for food weekly or monthly saves pretty substantial $- but what do you do when there is no refrigerator?

Where do you put your winter boots in July? Your parka?

It isn't as cut and dried as you'd think- My friends who are caught in situations that don't allow them to obtain and maintain their own personal housing would break down alot of the stereotypes and preconceived notions that many people have-

We need to stop buying into the "poster-child" images that the media feeds us- We need to stop clumping people into neat little piles of "worthy" and "un-worthy". Anything else IS prejudice- if you stop and think about it- Pre conceived judgment.

Someday we'll finally understand that

We all need to treat others as if "we" were "them" and "they" are "us"-

Until we do that- we will continue to kill, envy, wage war, oppress, and destroy each other.

I for one am really weary of all this circling-
peace,
blu

[bobbolink]

131. thank you so much for your intelligent and caring reply!

I simply can't handle the cold-heartedness and ignorance any more.

I so much appreciate people like you who have responded to this ugliness!!

:loveya:

[Bluerthanblue]

150. I just wish this was

an issue that could be talked about in the past tense.

Thank you for your kind words. You aren't alone. There is a change comming. A long overdue change coming.
:hug: :grouphug: :hug:
wishing you peace and comfort
blu

[bobbolink]

132. You have been answered about that, and you ignore it.

Yes, it's all about you, dear.

BYE

[hfojvt]

68. Under our current tax system

the IRS took .06 dollars out of my last paycheck. Much less than 15%. Plus, there are personal deductions of about $8,000 which is income tax free. Then there is the EIC which can be paid to people in advance.

[Cobalt Violet]

96. How do they know how much a person is going to spend before they do.

What kind of financial proctological exams are we going to have to summit to for the crime of being underpaid?

Is it all based on what a undervalued person should be spending?

[mudesi]

34. I missed it. What is his tax policy?

Can you give me a synopsis of his tax policy?

[CBGLuthier]

41. You mean a flat taxer is calling themselves a democrat?

I guess I am out of the loop but I can't imagine there is anything more against democratic principles than the flat tax.

Flat tax benefits the wealthy and destroys the lower and middle classes. Only RW asses can be for that.

[brer cat]

48. I share your pain, bobbolink.

I'm not in love with Gravel, and would have by-passed this post except for your username, which I have come to respect greatly.

There was a time in the not-too-distant past when I would have just said "no way, not gonna happen ever" when seeing something about a sales tax that high, but after enduring the * administration, I know that anything is possible.

As strong as we DUers are anti-war, we must remember this isn't the only issue and cannot not be.

I hope that you won't mind if I add to your post. Children who have no dinner and no breakfast, yet are expected to perform in school. Parents working at minimum wage or just above who have to choose between food for their family or medicine for a sick child (forget the meds for the parents...they just can't afford to go there). Older life-long working Americans who are too "old" for regular jobs and too young for social security or medicare.

We are allowing countless numbers of our neighbors to die without dignity, without respect, without care. It is a tragedy and a disgrace!

Thank you for this post, bobbolink. A K&R here...as well as


:hug:

[bobbolink]

136. Thank you so very much! I think you can see right here why poor folk don't

even try anymore.

The amount of hatred is amazing--especially considering that the Dem party *USED* to be the party of poor people.

Oh, for the days of RFK!!

I so much appreciate you taking the time to write... your kind words are a balm to all this injury.

:loveya: :hug: :loveya:

[brer cat]

138. I too miss RFK greatly!

Off-topic, but the only time I ever saw him in person was during the procession in Atlanta before Dr. King's funeral. Little could I have imagined that in such a short time, the poor and oppressed would lose both champions.

Please note that I have changed my sig line. That is the greatest come-back I have seen in a looong time.



Rose :hug:

[bobbolink]

144. I forgot I said that....

:rofl:

:hug: :loveya: :hug:

[Jacobin]

53. Anyone who thinks our current tax system is "progressive"

Needs to spend a bit of time seeing what the wealthy pay in taxes as a percentage of their income under the current system. the loopholes are gargantuan and obscene. As Warren Buffet notably said (the guy is worth 30 billion or so "My secretary pays a higher marginal tax rate than I do"...and to his credit, he thinks its wrong and was against the recent tax cuts.

[Telly Savalas]

85. Then raise the top marginal rates, simplify the code, close loopholes,

and tax capital gains at the same rate as income from compensation for labor.

Proponents of goofy national sales tax and "fair" tax schemes never explain how implementing a costly overhaul of the entire system is superior to the simple reforms listed above.

[Jacobin]

105. the problem is that wealthy people make campaign contributions

its smoke and mirrors when the marginal rates are high with loopholes and exceptions galore.

I'm not saying it couldn't be fixed. I'm just saying that suggesting that we currently have a progressive income tax is not what is real right now.

[watrwefitinfor]

75. It is somewhat scary that so many people on DU have so little understanding

of the purpose of campaigns like Gravel's, or Kucinich's. In 2004 there were many of the same slams about Braun, and Sharpton, and Kucinich here on DU.

What were they doing besides taking wind away from the REAL candidates. If they couldn't win, and they couldn't, why were they running? They were just in it for their ego.

So many DUers repeating the same arguments the MSM blowhards toss out ad nauseum.

Simple truth is, Braun and Sharpton and Kucinich constantly pushed the dialog to the left in 2004. They pushed the "REAL" candidates to much more of an anti-war position than they would have EVER taken without being pushed. If they hadn't been campaigning, the REAL candidates would have been running the same old pablum, much much worse than what we witnessed, and their positions on the war would have never changed.

That is why Kucinich and other progressives run. They educate and stir up the people, who then make noise, which pushes the REAL candidates to the left. (This shit used to be taught in 9th grade Civics classes.)

Kucinich, Braun, Sharpton - they all understood they had that role. They also understood that every delegate they picked up could be used at the convention toward helping to broker a platform that was perhaps just a little more progressive - just a little better for working people than it would have been without them. And any delegates they managed to pick up could be available to be bestowed on the candidate of their choice, if they so chose. This could certainly be a factor in moving the REAL candidates just a little further to the left.

The same is true of Kucinich and Gravel this year. They know the situation. For goodness' sake, they are two of the smartest candidates. They know they are not up there to win, though it may be part of their plan to say so. They know exactly why they are there. They are there to hold the others' feet to the fire, and to educate the masses. They are there to move the whole shebang to the left. They are there for those poor people the original poster is so afraid they are going to starve to death. As if they would ever be in a position to do that.

So Gravel has bought into the flat tax scheme. So that's a strike against him. (Kind of like Hillary's support of the war is a strike against her, you think?) Doesn't take away a thing from what Gravel achieved on that stage last night. Priceless. And to keep him doing that, a few donations are certainly in order.

How on earth can the OP get in such a stew over something that is an impossibility? And that does so much potential good? I, for one, certainly had my old heart lifted just by hearing him lash out at the pablum spewers on that stage. Here I was, all alone, jumping up and down, screaming YES! YES! YES! I’ll give what little I can out of my little fixed income, too, to see him keep on doing that for awhile.

It is the job of the MSM to make fun of all candidates with honest progressive positions; to belittle them, mock their positions, call them fruitcakes, try to get rid of them. It is the job of the leftist candidates to keep shit stirred up as long as they can afford to. And it is our job to keep the shit-stirring candidates enabled for as long as possible, pushing to the left. We are the progressives, are we not? It seems to me there are some on this board who work hard to do the job of the MSM for them.

Wat

[libnnc]

78. Wish I could nominate a post.

Your's would be it. It's sorry that so many people don't understand the value of the shit stirrers. Let them rant, let them get THEIR message out. While they take the hits, eventually their salient messages (the BIG ones--like Iraq and the phoney baloney "war on terra" and the $$ wasted on those enterprises that could be spent elsewhere--like helping the poor) become OUR messages. What's the harm in that?

[bobbolink]

135. It's too bad that some people don't understand the value of people they see as beneath them.

[libnnc]

137. Don't put words into my mouth.

If you'd stop long enough to listen, maybe you'd understand that keeping a guy like Gravel around will--

1. get the top tier off their duffs and get us OUT of Iraq
2. so we can use those billions of dollars wasted in an illegal war to get you out of the public library and into affordable housing.

Do you get it now? It's not either or. It's all connected. Gravel doesn't have a chance in hell to win but just the fact that he's sticking his neck out there to push the debate further to the left is what matters. And that will help YOU. It will help ALL OF US.

Edit to soften my reply to you, but it probably won't matter. You'll still be offended.

[bobbolink]

143. sorry I thanked you.

good bye.

[libnnc]

146. You didn't thank me. You implied that I think you're somehow

beneath me. Did I misunderstand?

[stevedeshazer]

80. That is exactly right

You made my point much more eloquently than I did.

Thanks.

[Dutch]

86. It's scary that so many DUers believe disagreeing with them=lack of understanding.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[illinoisprogressive]

79. Not impressed with Gravel. But, I think of Seniors. My mom is in her 70s.

[Sapphire Blue]

84. bobbolink, I've also seen the lovefest for Gravel since the 'debate'.

It made me realize just how ill-informed voters can be.

Those who are informed in regard to his tax plan, yet still look to him as some sort of savior? Well, that explains the lack of regard for social & economic justice issues that comes from a certain faction.

$600 or $800/mo. Rent. Utilities. Food. Medicine. Transportation. Clothing. On $600 or $800/mo?!?!?! How in God's name, in the United States of America, can a person be expected to live on so little? Why in God's name can't people understand how much it hurts to be left out, to be forgotten, to be fucking invisible to so many people? Why aren't people out in the streets, demanding justice for all?

repubs hold raygun & ghouliani up as two of their heroes, and actually admire what they've done to this country.

Dems used to hold Dr. King & Bobby Kennedy up as heroes. Many of us still do. Others... too young? Too yuppiefied? Too comfortable in their own lives & can't seem to be bothered by someone else's misfortune? What the hell happened? Is it really going to take another Great Depression to wake people up? It just doesn't seem to be enough to point out that it could happen to them; they know that it can. It seems that it has to happen to them for them to finally get it.

*** sigh ***

[hfojvt]

111. It is a love for some of his other messages

My first knowledge of Gravel came from a link to a speech about the Military Industrial Complex. I generally get behind people who oppose the MIC. I do not expect that person to come with a radical rightwing tax plan.

BTW, my take home pay is about $720 a month, and I do okay. It's quite possible to live on. Since I have DSL and two dogs among other things, I would not even say I am scraping.

[Sapphire Blue]

113. Gravel comes w/a "a radical rightwing tax plan", and there are people...

... here cheering him on like he's the Democratic Party's savior. :puke:

Since you posted your take home pay & say that you're doing okay, would you care to post your monthly expenses, too? Do you pay all your own expenses, w/o assistance from anyone else... family, friends, or gov't?

[hfojvt]

130. I don't really track my expenses

I am not on a budget. The only reason I know the income side of it, is because my employer handily keeps track of that, and there is only one paycheck every two weeks. Unlike bills that come all over the place. I do all my shopping with credit cards (but pay the bill every month to avoid finance charges.

My bills from January AFAIK

water + garbage - 30.06
credit card - 19.72
dog food - 11.75
electric bill - 33.11
gas bill - 68.13
credit card - 280
property taxes - 98.44 (my country property, not my house)
credit card - 15
phone bill - 85
Kiwanis - $50

January total - 691.21

child sponsorship - 96 (I pay 3 months at a time to save 8 stamps a year plus envelopes plus 15 cents per check (I probably outta pay on-line))
kiwanis - 42
credit card - 154.47
electric - 43.81
gas - 90.68
phone - 85
water + garbage - 30.06

feb total - 542.02

credit card - 20.02
dentist co-pay - 42
electric - 41.36
gas - 120.71
credit card - 300
credit card - 43.97
water - 30.06
phone - 85
kiwanis - 45

March - 728.12

That's from my checkbook registry, so I am sure I am forgetting some things. I also remembered that I pay my phone bill with my credit card, so I have been counting that twice. Leave it in there as a fudge factor. You probably noticed that rent is missing, but I cannot say that I miss it :o. Trick is that my house has been paid for since Oct. 2005. Obviously a person cannot survive on $700 a month if they are paying $500 a month for rent or for house payments, but why should people pay that (unless they are trapped in their city by their job?) I'd rather buy a person a fixer-upper house, than subsidize a price-gouging landlord. But, yes, I did make house payments on this income too. I bought the house in Nov. 2001, got fired from my job in March 2002, was on unemployment (what was it $125 a week? or $175?) until I got a part-time job in August 2002. (a good-paying part time job $235 a week gross).

This feels like TMI, but I still bristle at the blanket suggestion that people cannot survive on $800 a month. In some places, they still can.

[Sapphire Blue]

134. "Obviously a person cannot survive on $700 a month if they are paying $500 a month for rent ...

... or for house payments..." EXACTLY! Not everyone is fortunate enough to own their homes, and those who don't cannot survive on a $600-$800/mo income.

[hfojvt]

139. I guess my perspective on that

is not that they need 'more money', but that they need 'more affordable housing'. If they get more money, it just enriches their landlord.

But I did acheive home ownership in three towns without ever leaving the bottom quintile of income.

[RestoreGore]

121. And how hard do you have to work for that money?

Do you have anything left to even think about saving for your future? For your children? Could you live if you lost your job tomorrow? If someone in your family had a catastrophic illness hit them? The answer to those questions for many Americans is no across the board, and I think that for a country that touts itself as the richest in the world that is an utter disgrace. And the fact that so many have now been brainwashed to believe that the pittance they make is OK while those who are out of touch with what so many in this country deal with on a daily bases continue to plot to take more from them is unbelievable. Life in America shouldn't just be about scraping by.

[Dutch]

87. Damn good question. Gravel's tax plan is vicious right-wing lunacy.

Personally, i don't go in for that.

[Clark2008]

88. First of all, it would never pass Congress, so I wouldn't worry

about it too much.

Secondly, most people here are in love with his refreshing demeanor. He sounds like he could be swayed to change his mind if people showed him how detrimental this would be to the poor and middle class. In other words, he has the sense NOT to stay the course.

That said, I'm not in love with him, but I like him better than the stodginess I'm seeing from the so-called front runners. I still don't have a candidate.

[The Count]

120. Exactly! he is a genuine voice against war. he is reframing the Dem debate!

It's not like he'll be changing tax laws any time soon. Attacking him for that is like attacking W today for plans of destroying Social security.

[MyNameGoesHere]

89. Holy fuck

So Gravel is going to kill people? He isn't even a contender really and he is killing people? His tax plan is not in play and will not be. I assure you the corporations will not allow it with mouth pieces like you to stop it.

[hfojvt]

108. only corporate mouthpieces would try to stop a plan

that eliminates taxes on corporations. :crazy: That's kinda hard to follow. Sure his tax plan is not in play, because he can never win, but I wish he would stop pushing right-wing lies and tax plans that would be windfalls for the rich and for corporations.

[MyNameGoesHere]

112. First the current plan

is not even close to fair. Second why not give it some thought before accusing him of putting people in graves. If a new tax plan ever comes to fruition i hope it will have some ideas from many economic disciplines that is fair to the majority of people. See that's what we do in a functioning society, we try to make it better for all people, just not accuse someone of some bull shit like sending poor people to graves.

[hfojvt]

115. it's been getting more unfair because of plan's like Gravels

I gave it some thought. Went to the site and read about it, and found errors and inconsistencies in it. The OP is clearly on target, IMO, in that his so-called 'Fair tax' would be a windfall to the rich and an extra burden to poor and working people. Stated a little bit hyperbolically, but essentially correct.

[MyNameGoesHere]

140. And the current system is better how?

I agree it needs work but knee jerk reactionaries are what get us into this problem in the first place. Saying things about poor people and funerals is not very helpful.

[hfojvt]

141. the current system at least has rich people paying 35%

instead of 25%. It is still mildly progressive if you exclude payroll taxes. A progressive answer to our current system would be to return to pre-Reagan rates and fund social security with income taxes instead of socking it to the working people like this idea does. At least moving in that direction instead of suggesting a radical move in the other direction.

It's not knee-jerk reactionary to puke on Gravel's rightwing plan, it's knee-jerk progressive. To a poor person or an advocate for poor people the reaction to his plan happens to be the verbal equivalent of projectile vomiting. The plan is that revolting, but you should be blaming the ipecac not the person who accidentally drank it.

[MyNameGoesHere]

142. Bull

No "Successful" company or person is paying 35%. The CEO would be fired, and they would not be able to buy that extra H3. You really think under this system it is fair? Wow i am shocked i tell you.

[hfojvt]

148. Bull yourself

that is their marginal rate. If they were not paying that much then why was Bush so concerned about lowering the top rate? Why bother if none of his base (the rich and the ultra-rich) are paying that rate? Why bother reducing the tax rate on dividends, which they did in 2003? They have their legal loopholes and dodges, but in the final analysis, they are paying 35% on the last million (unless it is dividend income thanks to the BS from 2003, or unless it is income from tax-free munis.)

I cannot claim to know about corporate taxes or their rates. I understand alot of profitable corporations are not paying any taxes. One of the big loopholes for individual income taxes IMO is Schedule A, and that may be untouchable since so many middle class taxpayers also use it. It is clever because it saves the middle class a dime while saving richer people $10.

[rucky]

93. Tax wealth.

it should be really simple. all of these other elaborate schemes are just a way to get around the one tax method that's truly fair.

[melm00se]

95. taxing wealth

would also include the retirement accounts, home equity and the like of regular folks. it would also be an incredible disincentive to save (also wealth).

[Bluerthanblue]

107. what IS wealth anyway? is it not a hoarding of that which is

necessary for life??

Total up the amount paid to the top 500 US CEO's from last year- we're talking 500 individual human beings-

What were they paid?????

A combined total of 5.1 BILLION dollars.

$ 5,001,000,000. One single year- for arguments sake lets divide that equally among the 500.

They "earned" $10,002,000 each- or

$27,403 dollars each and every day (weekends and holidays included) for a year.


Can anyone honestly justify that?

Can anyone sincerly say "so what- they 'earned' it?"

What is wrong with "civilization"????

[melm00se]

129. CEO

compensation is income and is taxed as such. If the compensation is stock based deferred income, it is taxed when those shares are exercised or purchased or just plain sold.

In the case of option shares, when they are exercised, the $$$ is treated as ordinary income and taxed at whatever rate that is called for by income level.

(I know, i exercised some last year, fortunately I had $$$ for taxes withheld otherwise I'd have been in a world of hurt)

[JNelson6563]

94. He rants and raves

Very popular here. ;-)

[Clark2008]

97. Well, you know what they say: If you're not angry, you're not

paying attention.

Ranting and raving is a result of anger. I think Americans SHOULD be angry, myself.

[JNelson6563]

100. Does a leader rant and rave or

offer practical solutions?

I can't imagine Wes Clark wasting a valuable opportunity to educate the masses on a what sort of things we should consider doing, can you? When Gravel whined about himself being a "senior statesman" who was "feeling like a potted plant", I thought it was a good thing he announced his "senior statesman" status cause I wouldn't have deduced it by his behavior.

Just sayin'.

Julie

[melm00se]

98. I was thinking last night

and a lot of people here state that sales taxes are regressive, especially on the poor.

they are correct, historically and as they exist now, they are regressive. That fact, however, should not prevent folks from working to create a sales tax plan (in lieu of existing forms of federal taxation) that address the inherent inequities, having that tax plan be debated upon its merits and analyzed with an open mind and not be dismissed completely out of hand based upon the way in used to be.

As to this specific plan, the prebate idea has been dismissed, quite derisively, by some based upon the fact that some people don't have addresses. Homelessness is absolutely deplorable and should be high on the list of things to fix but that issue (or any non-catastrophic issue for that matter) should not paralyze other public policies or be used as the sole reason to dismiss new ideas.

I look at this plan as a potential, something that should be looked at and seriously analyzed (with an open mind) to see if it:

a) would (or would not) negatively impact lower income families.
b) have the suggested impact of lowering prices by 20-25% (which would make the new price + the new tax equal to the current shelf price).
c) would generate sufficient revenues to make this plan revenue neutral to the federal government.
d) would generate the actual savings of the $270 billion lost to the overall economy (or $900 per person) to comply with the existing federal tax laws.

If it doesn't and would create a worse issue than (or not improve on) what exists now, then scrap it or rework it to see if the flaws can be addressed...the status quo, which is an out of control, easily manipulated, special interest catering, disaster, is no longer, IMO, a viable situation.

[toddaa]

99. Todd's handy dandy fair tax

Decriminalize all drugs
Cut the Department of Defense's budget by 80% and remove all bases from from foreign soil.

Done.

[IndyOp]

118. TODDAA FOR PRESIDENT! That's MY kind of fair tax. Where do I sign up? (n/t)

:hi:

[LeftishBrit]

110. Good points...

I don't know too much about Gravel; but I do think that it's important to consider a politician's views on everything. This war is an extremely crucial issue; but a politician's economic approach is also important, and can be a life-and-death issue for those who are poor. Thatcher destroyed some of the best things in our country by her right-wing economic approach.

[The Count]

117. Not crazy about his tax. But war is the issue that needs to be addressed now

and that's what he does: addresses them forcefully.
The risk of Gravel becoming POTUS and enforcing this law are zero.
But PEOPLE ARE DYING NOW DAILY IN IRAQ!
I am with you on the poverty issues - and don't for a minute trivialize their importance.
But Gravel is a voice against the war. he has a big microphone now. And I intend to cheer him all the way - and it's a mistake for you to attack him. For all intents and purposes he is an activist.
Why don't you attack the phony candidates who actually have a chance to enforce laws?

[Rex]

122. Flat tax issue?

Haven't been paying attention to the Gravel threads.

[Milo_Bloom]

123. Read the plan... It is a progressive sales tax!

Stop the gloom and doom. It is an EXCELLENT plan.

[JVS]

126. Poor people can't afford funerals!

[bobbolink]

145. It's really sad that there are threads about poverty, and reasoned posts about this tax,

yet the only thing that really gets attention is an angry post.

That's really sad.

:(

[IronLionZion]

159. You're right about that.

It is very sad. Another thing that is sad is the serious lack of discussing all other factors involved in poverty. Job creation and universal healthcare are good things that Dems can agree on. Social responsibility is a central tenet of our party. Mike wants single-payer, which you decided to ignore completely.

False conclusions are sad too. I could easily say that there was more death during the reign of America's most economically left-wing president (FDR) than any other time in US history but that has nothing to do with anything. I could also say there was very little death and a lot of prosperity during the reign of America's most libertarian president ever (Coolidge) but that also has nothing to do with anything because there are so many other factors involved so Coolidge and FDR had very little to do with the deaths.

jobs are good
war is bad
healthcare is good
education is good
poverty is bad


Mike has a pretty reasonable platform http://www.gravel2008.us/

[tavalon]

149. You're making the same mistake here that people make with the draft issue

and Charlie Rangel. I support him being able to bring up the draft issue not because I want a draft (I don't) but because that is the quickest way to get the debate on this soulless war to heat up. Everyone will pay attention if they have potential skin in the game. And with Gravel, I don't support all of his issues but I want the conversations about Iraq and other important issues to heat up and NO ONE who is running right now is willing to talk about anything substantive. That is why I'm supporting him right now. I know he will never be elected just as I know that Rangels campaign to reinstitute the draft will ever get passed but we need to have these conversatons and NO ONE with the exception of Rangel and Gravel are having those conversations.

[Cetacea]

152. I think it's good. The dems destroyed welfare: bad

I would like to give the guy a chance and hear how he is going to accommodate the poor and disabled.
You ought to be putting your anger into Clinton and the dems who supported his gutting of the welfare system. I believe some of them are still around, and I would love to know if they supported that crime against humanity. Did Biden? I would guess that "the end of welfare as we know it" has killed millions.
The dems and media were complicit.
Do you think that any one of these candidates, no matter how well intentioned, are really going to ALLOWED to help the poor in any meaningfull way once they are elected?

At least Gravel is trying to shake things up. We should give him some time to fine-tune his proposal before being so quick to judge him.

edit: if any of you know who voted yes on Clintons welfare "reform" act who are still active please respond

[nolabels]

153. Phlat tax and fake boobs make for mockery of democracy

How many years do we need to get hip to the double switch. No need to analyze what they want to offer because they just need to know they will take what they are given. Viva for what worked before and never change what isn't broken.

When was bush EVER funny?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x732793

Not bitter, just waiting for people to realize there is a couple hundred years of case example of how it worked before.
All the cons want to offer is more cons :shrug:

[Matsubara]

154. I kind of agree with the sentiment RE taxation, but Gravel is not going to go the distance.

He just isn't, clearly.

[rinsd]

157. Gravel has no chance of being elected but it looks like he may draw from Kucinich's well (nt)

[Madspirit]

158. People Don't Care

Few people care about the poor, the homeless, the mentally ill, the disenfranchised, the walking wounded. I've been all of those things and am still some of those things, so I do care.

I tried to recommend but it's been over 24 hours. I can still kick...
Lee