Hillary's desperate moment, with video

[ProSense]

Desperation captured on video: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2/23/14417/7638/731/434555">Clinton to Obama: 'Shame on you'

She added: "Shame on you, Barack Obama. It is time you ran a campaign consistent with your messages in public. That's not what I expect from you. Meet me in Ohio -- let's have a debate about your tactics."

"Enough about the speeches, and the big rallies, and then using tactics right out of Karl Rove's playbook," she said angrily. "This is wrong and every Democrat should be outraged."

link

Hillary's performance is an attack on the facts about who is running a nasty and divisive campaign.
Hillary's misleading messages!

Hillary joins McCain in attacking Obama on accepting public financing in the GE (will she be running again Obama in the GE?). Hillary, like McCain, refuses to release her tax returns.

In the last fews days, Hillary has accused Sen. Obama of plagiarism, and her campaign pushed to reporters today stories about Barack Obama and his ties to former members of a radical domestic terrorist group.

Hillary campaign's Rovian tactics: Robo Calls, mailers disguised as coming from Edwards' campaign, etc.

On Hillary's latest outrage over an Obama mailer about health care and NAFTA, a few facts (some being ignored by the media).

Factcheck.org did an analysis of the the health care mailer and found nothing factually wrong with the piece:

According to news reports, the Clinton campaign lashed out at the use of the mailer in a conference call with selected reporters, complaining that the mail piece bears a resemblance to the "Harry and Louise" TV spots of 1993 and 1994 (pictured here).

One person on the call emotionally said the Obama mail piece was "outrageous as having Nazis march through Skokie, Illinois." That outburst was quickly disavowed during the call by Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson, who said it is "not a comparison that (the campaign) would make." The unpaid health care adviser who made the remark, Len Nichols of the New America Foundation, later apologized. He sent an e-mail to reporters saying, "My passions overwhelmed me. I chose an analogy that was wholly inappropriate."

We agree that there is a resemblance between the photo on the Obama mailer and the TV spots. In those ads actors portraying a white, middle-class couple expressed grave concerns about how the Clinton administration's health care plan would affect them. The ads were part of a $17 million campaign by the insurance industry that was widely credited – rightly or wrongly – with contributing to the defeat of the Clinton plan, and the ads still anger many advocates of broader government efforts to provide health insurance. But so far as we can see, Obama's choice of images in his mailer has nothing whatever to do with the accuracy of the claims it makes, or the accuracy of what "Harry and Louise" said, for that matter.

link

Is anyone in the media going to cover the "Nazis" comment?

Will the media mention Hillary's recent appearance on ABC's This Week when she discussed "Going after people's wages"? (8:17)

Then there is NAFTA.

The mailers in question say that her health plan would force people to spend money on health coverage even if they can't afford it, and also that she considers NAFTA to be a "boon" to the economy. Recent reports have argued that Hillary actually opposed NAFTA at the time, but could not publicly disagree with her husband's policies.

link

Ah, so she and only a handful of people knows she opposed it back then? Well, no need to limit it to secret opposition in the 90s.

Hillary Clinton's Support of NAFTA Has Been Well Documented

February 23, 2008

HILLARY CLINTON PRAISED NAFTA FOR YEARS

2006/2008: Newsday Reviewed Clinton's Statements, Concluded She Supported NAFTA. According to a Newsday issues rundown, "Clinton thinks NAFTA has been a boon to the economy." Newsday wrote in 2008, the word "boon" was their "characterization of how we best understood her position on NAFTA, based on a review of past stories and her public statements." (New York Newsday, 9/11/06; Newsday blog, 2/15/08)

2003: Hillary Clinton Expounded on Benefits of NAFTA, Calling it An Important Legislative Goal. "Creating a free trade zone in North America—the largest free trade zone in the world—would expand U.S. exports, create jobs and ensure that our economy was reaping the benefits, not the burdens, of globalization. Although unpopular with labor unions, expanding trade opportunities was an important administration goal. The question was whether the White House could focus its energies on two legislative campaigns at once . I argued that we could and that postponing health care would further weaken its chances." (Living History, 182)

2003: Clinton Called NAFTA a "Victory" For President Clinton. In her memoir, published in 2003, Clinton wrote, "Senator Dole was genuinely interested in health care reform but wanted to run for President in 1996. He couldn't hand incumbent Bill Clinton any more legislative victories, particularly after Bill's successes on the budget, the Brady bill and NAFTA." (Living History, p.231)

1998: Clinton Praised Corporations for Their Efforts On Behalf of NAFTA. The Buffalo News reported, "As first lady, Hillary Clinton had nothing to do with either trade move. Nor has she repudiated them. In a 1998 World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, she praised corporations for mounting "a very effective business effort in the U.S. on behalf of NAFTA." (Buffalo News (New York), 7/16/07)

1996: Clinton Said "I Think Everybody Is In Favor Of Free And Fair Trade. I Think NAFTA Is Proving Its Worth." A questioner pointed out that UNITE opposes the North American Free Trade Agreement, backed by the Clinton administration, on grounds it sends American jobs to Mexico. In March 1996, three years after President Clinton signed NAFTA into law, Hillary Clinton said, "I think everybody is in favor of free and fair trade. I think NAFTA is proving its worth," she said, adding that if American workers can compete fairly, they can match any competition. "That's what a free and fair trade agreement like NAFTA is all about," she said. (AP, 3/6/96)

1996: Clinton "Vowed That Her Husband Would Continue To Support Economic Growth In South Texas Through Initiatives Such As The North American Free Trade Agreement." AP wrote, "Mrs. Clinton vowed that her husband would continue to support economic growth in South Texas through initiatives such as the North American Free Trade Agreement and the Rio Grande Valley empowerment zone, which allows tax breaks to businesses that relocate to the border." (AP, 11/2/96)

1996: Hillary Clinton "Touted" President Clinton's Support for NAFTA, Saying it Would Reap Widespread Benefit. On a trip to Brownsville, Texas, Clinton "touted the president's support for the North American Free Trade Agreement, saying it would reap widespread benefits in the region." (United Press International, 11/1/96)



DURING THIS CAMPAIGN, WHEN ASKED ABOUT NAFTA, CLINTON HAS NOT CLAIMED SHE DID NOT SUPPORT IT

Asked Whether NAFTA Was a Mistake, Clinton Said It Was a Mistake To the Extent That It Did Not Deliver. Clinton, asked whether NAFTA was a mistake, said "Look, NAFTA did not do what many had hoped. And so we do need to take a look at it and we do need to figure out how we're going to have trade relations that are smart, that give the American worker and the American consumer rights around the world. ... NAFTA was a mistake to the extent that it did not deliver on what we had hoped it would, and that's why I call for trade timeout. When I am president, I'm going to evaluate every trade agreement. We do need to get back to enforcing the ones we have, which the Bush administration has not done. They have totally abdicated that. But I think we have to get broader than that. We've got to have enforceable labor and environmental standards. We've got the WTO that enforces financial and corporate rights. We need the International Labor Organization and other mechanisms that will be there to enforce labor rights and environmental rights. And that's what I intend to do as president." (Democratic Debate, 11/15/07) VIDEO HERE

Clinton Didn't Say Whether NAFTA Should Be Repealed; Just Said It Didn't Realize The Benefits It Promised. Clinton, on whether she'd be willing to repeal four things (DOMA, Telecom Act of 1996, NAFTA and Welfare Reform) that happened during the Clinton years said, "NAFTA, you know, I have said that NAFTA did not realize the benefits that it was promised for a number of reasons. This is not just about Mexico but about the tri partied relationship. So I thing generally we've have to generally have smarter trade agreement that not only have labor and environmental standards which I fully support but really have an ongoing evaluation of the impact of trade agreements." (YearlyKos, 8/4/07]



BILL CLINTON CONTINUES TO ARGUE FOR NAFTA

JANUARY 2008: Bill Clinton Said "A Lot Of People Think NAFTA's A Bigger Problem Than it Is. During an event in Las Vegas, Clinton said "She believes that NAFTA, she believes that all our trade agreements should be reviewed in the first 90 to 120 days of taking office. She would have a total moratorium on all new trade deals until we conducted a review. And one of the things that we have to examine is the point I made earlier. That is, is the trade agreement basically fair, but we just don't enforce it. A lot of people think that NAFTA's a bigger problem than it is. Our problem with Mexico, our trade deficit with Mexico is mostly because we buy oil from them."

Bill Clinton Defended His Decision To Enact NAFTA And Disagreed With His Wife That It Has Hurt Workers. "President Clinton is closing one policy disagreement with Senator Clinton while keeping another alive, saying his wife is right to forbid the use of torture but wrong that his signature trade deal has ‘hurt' American workers. ... He staunchly defended his decision in 1993 to support the North American Free Trade Agreement, which Mrs. Clinton said over the summer had ‘hurt a lot of American workers.' Asked directly by ABC's George Stephanopoulos if he agreed that the pact had hurt workers, Mr. Clinton replied, ‘No.' He said NAFTA had become a ‘symbol' but America had worse trade deficits with countries such as China and Japan than it did with Mexico." (NY Sun, 10/1/07)

COMMENTERS HAVE CRITICIZED CLINTON FOR HER FLIP ON TRADE

Bloomberg: Clinton "Praised" NAFTA, Friends Said She Was "A Free-Trader at Heart." Bloomberg News reported, "Clinton promoted her husband's trade agenda for years, and friends say that she's a free-trader at heart. 'The simple fact is, nations with free-market systems do better,'' she said in a 1997 speech to the Corporate Council on Africa. 'Look around the globe: Those nations which have lowered trade barriers are prospering more than those that have not.' Praise for Nafta At the 1998 World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, she praised corporations for mounting 'a very effective business effort in the U.S. on behalf of Nafta.'' She added: 'It is certainly clear that we have not by any means finished the job that has begun.' Clinton 'is committed to free trade and to the growing role of the international economy,' said Steven Rattner, a Clinton fundraiser and co-founder of Quadrangle Group LLC, a New York buyout firm. 'She would absolutely do the right thing as president.' There was little evidence of a protectionist tilt to Clinton's trade views during either her 2000 campaign or first years in the Senate. She stressed issues such as homeland security and children's health care, and wasn't a major voice in trade-policy debates. As she began to gear up for a White House run, Clinton became less of a free-trade booster and more skeptical about the payoff of globalization." (Bloomberg News, 3/30/07)

SF Chronicle: Clinton's Position On Trade "Clearly A Flip-Flip To Unions And Industry Sectors" And A "Bid To Outflank Her Rival, Senator Barack Obama." "Add to this Democratic front-runner Sen. Hillary Clinton's coolness to the idea. Her husband moved earth and sky to win passage of the NAFTA trade pact with Mexico and Canada in 1993. Now she favors periodic reviews to continue such deals, a "timeout" on new ones, and more federal officials to oversee complaints. It's clearly a flip-flop favor to unions and industry sectors hit by layoffs and cheap imports and bid to outflank her rival, Sen. Barack Obama, who is more favorable to free trade." (San Francisco Chronicle, 10/12/07)

On negative campaigning:

February 22, 2008

He’s Rubber She’s Glue

Hillary Clinton was in an unenviable position in last night’s CNN debate from Austin. Beforehand, our cable TV friends were all talking about how she had to come up with a “game-changer,” how Obama would “win” if it was a tie or even if she outpointed him, how she would have to land a “knockout punch,” how she would have to—what, exactly? No one had any actual suggestions for that. Because there was really nothing she could do, apart from hoping Obama would be gallant enough to commit a gargantuan gaffe.

She tried being mean once, with that prepackaged crack about “change you can Xerox.” The crowd booed, and so, I suspect, did the folks at home. But even before the booing she didn’t look happy about what she was saying. If this was the fun part, she wasn’t having fun. She looked a lot more comfortable, even content in a melancholy sort of way, at the end, when she said, “No matter what happens in this contest—and I am honored, I am honored to be here with Barack Obama. I am absolutely honored,” and the two clasped hands.

That was a game-changer of sorts, but the game it changed was her own. My hunch is that she has recognized that there are no magic formulas that can win this for her, and she has decided that if go out she must she intends to go out with class. Last night she backed away from her recent talk of Obama being unfit to be commander in chief—a very dangerous theme, because (unlike, say, her argument that his health-care plan doesn’t go far enough) it hands McCain a powerful talking point. Clinton will continue to talk about her differences with Obama on questions like an individual mandate for health insurance, the proper balance between conciliation and confrontation with Republicans, and the conditions under which a President should meet with nasty foreign leaders. She’ll talk about her experience and her diligence. This kind of thing hasn’t “worked” for her, but at least it is her. She’ll give it her best shot, not her worst shot, and let the chips fall where it looks like they’re falling.

“Going negative” has been a bust. It could never be anything but a bust, because there is no audience for it in the Democratic Party. Her supporters (almost all of them) like him; his supporters (most of them) like her. The finger-pointing has already begun: she spent too much money on fancy hotel rooms, her husband made too many blunders, she never settled on a theme, and so on ad infinitum. But all that may be beside the point—the point being that Barack Obama is a phenomenon that comes along once in a lifetime. Unfortunately for Hillary, it’s her lifetime; fortunately for the rest of us, it’s ours.

Negative campaigning doesn't appear to be paying off for Hillary.


Polls yesterday:

Ohio:
Clinton 48% (-3)
Obama 40% (+3)

Texas:
Clinton 47% (-7)
Obama 44% (+6)

link

Polls today:

Ohio, Texas uphill climbs for Clinton

<...>

The Illinois senator has mobilized his party's left wing, a big help in caucus races where party activists and fired-up newbies are key. And he's drawn crossover Republicans and independents to primaries in which they are allowed to vote.

<...>

Moreover, both states let people vote early. Obama, fresh from his Wisconsin victory on Tuesday, didn't wait for the dust to settle before exhorting Texans to vote right away. "I don't want you to wait until March 4," he said. Clinton, with a head start in campaigning in Texas, also appealed for an early lock on votes.

In the 22 contested Democratic primaries so far, independents made up 22 percent of the vote and they supported Obama by an overwhelming margin of 64 percent to 33 percent. Crossover Republicans, a far smaller percentage in the Democratic primaries, backed him 55-33.

Yet Obama has had the left flank covered, too: a 52-44 advantage over the New York senator among those who consider themselves very liberal.

more

Senator Obama is still focusing on the issues, Ohio:

Barack's Healthcare Roundtable in Columbus

[Flabbergasted]

1. She could have made her point without seeming nasty.

[Cha]

33. But, that wouldn't be

hilary.

[ErnestoG]

37. The Entitled have no patience for facts that reflect poorly on them.

[Skip Intro]

2. She called him on his rovian campaigning. Nothing desperate about it.

[lapfog_1]

3. Really... rovian

after the mailers her campaign sent out.

And who was it that tried to disenfranchise the culinary union workers in Nevada after the leadership endorsed Obama. That was a TRUE Rovian(tm) move.

[IndianaGreen]

6. Hillarycamp has been the one engaged in Rovian tactics for months

even before Hillary announced for President, she didn't miss a chance to stick a dagger in the back of a potential rival. Remember when Hillary joined the GOP chorus that accused John Kerry of sliming the troops?

[Skip Intro]

15. She did not. There we go again. Misrepresenting what really happened.

Repukes and some Dems were calling on Kerry to apologize - Hillary did NOT.

She said his statement, as it was delivered, was inappropriate. Kerry pretty much said the same afterwards, during his clarification.

She did not join the repuke chorus that accused Kerry of sliming the troops.

[ProSense]

18. BS! Accusing Obama of

meeting with terrorist is a Rovian as one can get! Disgusting!

[Skip Intro]

21. Did he? n/t

[lapfog_1]

30. No more so than when Hillary met with an IRA mastermind

not Sein Fein either, but a real live IRA commander, responsible for the deaths of many british soldiers and quite a number of northern Ireland's protestants, including men, women, and children. All documented.

There was a photo of the meeting posted here earlier.

[karynnj]

60. No

Obama met a Professor from an Illinois university who specializes in progressive education. He was a radical in the 1970s, when Obama was about 10. Bill Clinton pardoned a member of the same group. Maybe HRC should speak to Bill if that is a problem - Obama"s meeting is way less than Bill's pardoning on the scale of things.

[blm]

20. She coulda said "what he said was inappropriate but I knew he didn't mean it as

it was delivered because his written remarks handed to the press proved that, and besides, we all know there isn't anyone in DC who has worked harder for military personnel and veterans more than John Kerry has over the last twenty years."


Isn't THAT what an HONEST Democrat would say?

[Skip Intro]

22. She didn't join the repuke chorus demanding an apology, as was alleged.

Yeah, she coulda said a lot of things, she also said it was time to move on and win in November (06). Kerry himself took himself off the campaign trail after those remarks so as not to damage Dems' chances of winning back the House and Senate. He did screw up the line, and she acknowledged as much, and then said let's move on and win.

I have no problem with what she said about this. Kerry evidently concurred.

[blm]

31. He didn't take himself off, Schumer and Hillary hounded Reid to FORCE him off of it...

you obviously don't remember that just a week earlier that heyjohn website popped up to try and shame Kerry into turning over most of his campaign money to Dem candidates - except Kerry had already donated more money to candidates and to the DNC than any other lawmaker. The website got immediate mainstream press the very morning it launched - who had that power and connections? It was tracked to Schumer's staff.

And it wasn't the first time Schumer and Clinton teamed up to trash Kerry. They did it during Alito filibuster, too. Both argued against filibuster in the Dem caucus, though Hillary jumped on the bandwagon the next day. But both of their staff dogged Kerry and his motives for filibustering in the press.

You think all this shit happens in some sort of vacuum.

Well, some of us no longer believe in coincidences with the Clintons anymore.
http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=13354

Their solid support for Bush on his terrorism and Iraq war decisions during Bill's 3 week book tour in 2004 smelled intentional, especially since he seemed to forget Kerry's lengthy record as the top lawmaker in DC on the tracking of terror networks and their funding.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/

And then there's the 'coincidence' of Carville's call to WH on election night and Blackwell's announcement to Ohio Dems that the 250,000 provisional ballots they thought they had was a mistake - there were only 150,000.
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward

[Skip Intro]

35. Yes I remember. Kerry was slimed. But not by Hillary.

I'd need to see some links that prove Hillary hounded Reid to force Kerry (force him?) to remove himself from the camapign trail. Force?


I'd need to see some links that prove Schumer's people were behind that website, but even then, that does not implicate Hillary, as you do.


I'd also need some links that prove Hillary's staff dogged Kerry and his motives in the press on the filibuster of Alito.

Still, she did not join in the repuke chorus demanding Kerry apologize for his "botched joke." She just didn't.

[ProSense]

38. She called his comment inappropriate and she knew damn well what he meant

Hillary Clinton Joins In

[Skip Intro]

39. Yes, and the repukes were screaming for an apology. Not the same.

She also said it was time to move on and focus on winning.


Don't see the problem.

[ProSense]

40. She is a disingenuous opportunist, that's the problem! n/t

[blm]

44. Because the RIGHT THING TO DO would be to defend Kerry and attack Bush and McCain for

trying to smear a veteran and staunch supporter of the military just for political gamesmanship.

And if she HAD done that at the time or whenever ANY Democrat was attacked unfairly by Bush and Rove, alot of people would trust her more today.

But she and Bill have done PLENTY to prove they would side with the devil himself if they thought they could gain from doing it.


And guess what? They HAVE.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/

And their little dog, too.
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward

[Skip Intro]

47. She didn't join in the chorus. Kerry effed up, you don't defend a fuck up. Just like "for it before

I was against it."

No defense to that.

Political dynamite.

I admire Hillary for NOT calling on Kerry to apologize, and keeping the focus on the BIG picture.

A quality vastly underrated on this forum.

[ProSense]

57. "Kerry effed up" Oh effing BS! You're trying to defend Hillary for being opportunistic.

Strength Sells. Show Some.

Rep. Sherrod Brown, a Democrat leading in late polls in his bid to unseat Republican Sen. Mike DeWine, said Republicans are merely trying to change the subject. "The people who should apologize are George Bush and Mike DeWine for sending our troops into battle without body armor and without examining the cooked intelligence," he said.

"John Kerry is not only a great leader for the Democratic party and a great U.S. senator, but he's a patriot," Casey said after a morning political rally in Allentown. "He said he botched a joke and I think that is the beginning and the end of it. He was talking about the president and I think he has every right to criticize this president." – Bob Casey

"I think people will remember John Kerry's press conference today as the moment we Democrats stopped once and forever accepting the disgraceful smears of Republicans. John Kerry showed our Party how to fight back with the truth.

“John Kerry is a patriot who has fought tooth and nail for veterans ever since he came home from Vietnam. He has stood with his brothers in arms unlike this Administration which exploits our troops to make a political point and divide America.

“John Kerry should apologize to no one for his criticism of the President and his broken policy in Iraq. George Bush is the one who owes our troops an apology. This is text book Republican campaign tactics.

“Everybody knows it's not working this time around. If anyone thinks a veteran would criticize the more than 140,000 heroes serving in Iraq and not the president who got us stuck there, they've got a partisan political agenda and that's the bottom line. We're not going to take it any more." -- Max Cleland

"It's time for the President and Vice President to start leveling with the American people, and stop attacking brave veterans like John Kerry who have dared to question the White House's flawed decision to stay the course in Iraq. Every day they attack Democrats instead of reaching out to find a new way forward is another day our security suffers and our troops go without the political leadership they need to succeed. -- Harry Reid

Hillary showed no class!

[Skip Intro]

63. Oh please, he did fuck it up. That's fact. Wtf?

he also fucked up when he said he was for something before he was against it.

that's fact.

that fact, actually, probably cost him, and us, the election.


wait until they get their claws into the "O"


revisionist history sucks

[ProSense]

77. No, he didn't. Hillary stabbed him in the back, face facts. Her hypocrisy is why

her campaign is falling apart! Face it!

[Skip Intro]

79. How did she stab him in the back? HOW??? Give me one sentence, not a link, please.

This has nothing to do with her campaign. Why bring that into it?

[KAZ]

80. It has everything to do with her campaign. You refuse to see it.

[Skip Intro]

83. Ok, reply here and explain it to me like I'm a second grader. Go for it.

[ProSense]

85. OK, explain to me

Hillary said his comment was "inappropriate"

Did she believe it was inappropriate to criticize Bush?

or

Did she believe it was inappropriate because Kerry was insulting the troops?

[Skip Intro]

89. replied to wrong post

[Skip Intro]

91. Well, thanks for answering my question with a question. It's ok, though. I'll answer.

Your two options are loaded and therefore bullshit. But surely you, you, author, know this.

She was asked about his comment that if you don't get a good education, you get sent to Iraq. Well, that pretty much leaves out your first "option" in answer to your question - she's not talking about criticizing bush, something she has done effectively, for some time now.

So much for that crap.

I believe she was trying to move past a precarious political moment, created by Kerry, and that she was saying it was inappropriate to phrase such attacks on bush in such a way that the general public could view those remarks as being against the troops - as in they're all too stupid to have not joined up.

Yes, there was a growing firestorm over Kerry's remarks. Yes, many Dems were calling for an apology. No, Hillary did not ask him to apologize - to her credit.

Again, I ask, at what point did she stab him in the back?

Can you answer that question?

[ProSense]

93. Talk about BS spin, Hillary is a disingenuous opportunist. Her performance today proves that. n/t

[Skip Intro]

94. You were supposed to explain to me how HIllary stabbed Kerry in the back. Can we get to that now?

[ProSense]

95. No, you're in denial. Hillary is a backstabber. That is all. n/t

[Skip Intro]

96. Once again, PS? All you've done is say it - that doesn't make it so. You can't back it up.

Tell me how she backstabbed Kerry, if you can.

Though it's becoming obvious that you can't.

[Skip Intro]

92. Well, thanks for answering my question with a question. It's ok, though. I'll answer.

Well, thanks for answering my question with a question. It's ok, though. I'll answer.

Your two options are loaded and therefore bullshit. But surely you, you, author, know this.

She was asked about his comment that if you don't get a good education, you get sent to Iraq. Well, that pretty much leaves out your first "option" in answer to your question - she's not talking about criticizing bush, something she has done effectively, for some time now.

So much for that crap.

I believe she was trying to move past a precarious political moment, created by Kerry, and that she was saying it was inappropriate to phrase such attacks on bush in such a way that the general public could view those remarks as being against the troops - as in they're all too stupid to have not joined up.

Yes, there was a growing firestorm over Kerry's remarks. Yes, many Dems were calling for an apology. No, Hillary did not ask him to apologize - to her credit.

Again, I ask, at what point did she stab him in the back?

Can you answer that question?

[KAZ]

86. You're not a "second grader", so I won't need to. Campaigning

is all about perception. I know you're probably sick of this word, but a significant portion of what should be her base, perceives that she "triangulated" a few Dems in the past several years, in order to put herself in the position of capturing the middle. Might have worked, had the primaries been held 2 years ago. Some people don't forget the Kerry stuff, let alone some of the more egregious votes. Anyway, it's all about timing, and her campaign is behind the times, causing her to lose a huge portion of her base.

[blm]

105. It IS about her campaign and what she is willing to do to OTHER Dems in pursuit of

HER goals.

You think what Clintons have done over the years has turned out to be GOOD for the party?

[cali]

101. you should know all about revisionist history.

after all that's precisely what you're doing on this thread. In Nh, Hillary was accused by the executive board of a union that supports her of using dishonest tactics in attacking Obama on Healthcare. She sent out flyers suggesting he wasn't really pro-choice, and was rebuked by pro-choice organizations for doing it. And yet you insist that Hillary is all innocence and the Barack is the big mean rove. Now, that dear, is revisionist history.

[karynnj]

72. Kerry defended a major Bil Clinton F up in 1992

Bill Clinton was in major trouble because he lied several times about whether he was drafted. There also was a letter that Bill Clinton wrote that came out where he wrote of "some who loathe the miliary", Kerry used his status as someone who could have avoided the draft, but served and was a decorated war hero to defend Clinton and others who did not serve.

The mess Clinton was in then was his fault, not because of what he did in the 1970s, but the fact that he simply did NOT tell the truth the first time he was asked. Instead he went through at least 3 stories and attacked people who called him on it.

What Kerry did was leave out a word - NO ONE ELSE has ever been called on something like this. There was no reason to apologize because he did NOTHING wrong. It required an explanation, which was provided immediately.

As to "for it before I was against it" one usually only uses quotes when you are giving the exact words. Kerry had just given a complete expalnation of 2 bills - the first funded the war, but specified oversight on the spending and rolled back part of the tax cut and the other didn't. It was quite simple to explain - but the media persisted in playing dumb.

Admire HRC all you want, but many of see in that action about 3 days after Kerry spoke - a premeditated, cold stab in the back.

[blm]

42. Schumer has always acted for Hillary's interests. And the tracking of that website was

done quietly and the outcome was never discussed publicly or to any press. I say it here because I know for a fact that it WAS traced to a Schumer staffer.

You can distrust what I say all you want, but it won't change the facts that I know and I doubt you can offer ANY explanation for how a website that pops up overnight gets full-on press attention immediately.

I didn't say she called for an apology, but what she did do was VALIDATE the smear and the TACTIC - she did not SIDE with Kerry knowing how the smear machine was twisting - she went into it to scold Kerry and distance herself from him and THAT validated Bush and McCain's smear.

Yet when Hillary was attacked by DoD tool last year, Kerry was the FIRST to stand up for her because she was being WRONGLY smeared. THAT is what an HONEST Democrat does. What did Hillary choose to do? VALIDATE Bush and McCain and wouldn't say ONE POSITIVE THING about Kerry WHILE he was being unfairly attacked and WHILE she was in front of a camera.

[karynnj]

61. Kerry would not have agreed it was "inappropriate"

There's a difference between inappropriate and you misread a line. You may not have a problem with HRC saying this - but many people who admired Senator Kerry did and many thought it a stab in the back.

[Skip Intro]

84. Kerry nonetheless became a liability for the party through his own words.

That happened, and so did the "was for it before I was against it" crap. Yeah, he misspoke and yeah, it became a political liability for our party, both times.

That is a fact.

[blm]

106. It was based on a LIE - YOU SUPPORT the distortion over the truth.

Kerry was being HOUNDED by those who CLAIMED he was the hurting the party when the FCAT was that the attack on Kerry generated alot of strong editorials DEFENDING Kerry and attacking Bush for deliberately smearing Kerry yet again. Those editorials came out right before the vote - and voters were urged to vote AGAINST Bush's type of politics.

Even Tom Friedman wrote an excellent editorial urging votes for Dems and condemning Bush's attack on Kerry. What did Hillary, Schumer and Reid do?

[karynnj]

109. He did not become a liability

Look at the projections on the previous Sunday and look at the reslts a week later in the polls. The Democrats did substantially better than projected. (Look up the last set of Sunday talk shows in Oct 2006 - the consensus was we would take the house and not the Seante. We took both and the House margin was greater than expected. Kerry's efforts that year were a net plus - especially in defending a few of the vets.

As to 2004 - he had about 3 or 4 stumbles and no scandals that were real. His race to the nomination was far better than HRC's.

If you want to see a case where a surrogate WAS A LIABILITY for a campaign - google - Bill Clinton South Carolina. He hurt her chances in a very big way.

[karynnj]

59. Not true

Kerry had already spoken about the joke at least 2 days earlier explaining that he skipped a word in prepared text. He also strongly attacked the RW spin that twisted EVEN the words he said to mean things they didn't. He in NO way said that he did something inappropriate.

Kerry then wrote an apology to the troops and their families for any hurt they had from the way the words were distorted.

In neither did he suggest that he did anything "inappropriate"- because he DIDN'T, he skipped a pronoun in reading a joke. He also spoke on Imus - explaining that it was just a botched joke that he misread - pointing out you don't do that on purpose - it makes you look dumb.

All of these preceded HRC's stab in the back. Kerry had already dropped out of sight, the story was dying down, and daily tracking polls showed that Democrats were gaining everywhere. (This is when Schumer and HRC came out.)

What do YOU think inappropriate means - it means that you deliberately did something wrong - which he didn't. The logical assumption was that she was agreeing his the RW lunatics claiming that he was dissing the troops. She could have responded that it was a gaffe - that would be fair - and no one I know in the JK group would have thought elsewise. Implying anything negative about Senator kerry's relationship with the soldiers given his 4 decades of genuine love and support is beyond the pale.

If you want inappropriate behavior, look to her husband - that was inappropriate, not an over tired Senator with a bad cold skipping a two letter word in a speech when he was out working as hard as he could to help other Democrats.

[Skip Intro]

74. The political reality was that he had set off a firestorm that threatened to erode Dem chances

in the approaching election.

spin it all you want now, but that was what was going on then - he didn't step off the campaign trail for nothing.

[karynnj]

76. There were already daily tracking polls showing no such thing

The refrain "stuck in Iraq" did not help Bush. The fact is that had all the Democrats stood behind Kerry - admitting that he misread a joke that he himself characterized as a poor joke with even poorer delivery, the issue would have gone away faster than it did with HRC re-igniting it when it was already on the decline. He stepped off the campaign trail to make the issue die faster - it was when he was not there that HRC struck. He did respond to her attack because that would have hurt the party - and he is a far better person than she will ever be.

You can dispute this - but look back in the DU threads. I was one of the people fighting the distortions on the blogs.

[Skip Intro]

82. You're saying she single-handedly re-ignited the issue when it was dying, yes?

need to see some proof of that, please.

Reporters were getting feedback from many candidates, in an election year close to the election, on the issue. Many were asked and said he must apologize. Hillary was asked and said it was inappropriate, but that we, as a party and a nation, need to move on. That is a very fitting statement for the context of the time. That it has been blown into her "stabbing him in the back" serves as a testament to the hate-filled spin from the destroy-Hillary brigade, now with offices in the Democratic party.

[blm]

110. Most editorials generated from that went AGAINST Bush and Rove for that smear.

And even urged voters to pay them back by voting for Dems in 2006.

[karynnj]

111. No it didn't

It NEVER had that potential. Look at the projections of the results before it and after it and the actual results. In fact the likely reason for HRC waiting until the story was old news - was BECAUSE it was not hurting anyone in the race - she could keep the "stuck in Iraq" language out there and harm a rival all in one shot.

If you want to see what an "event" looks like that erodes chances - look at HRC numbers in SC after Bill Clinton misspoke. There you see a cause and effect.

[blm]

5. Rove's tactic is to accuse opponent of what you know you are doing.

TeamClinton loyalist Carville was certainly in tune with Rove's tactics:
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward


I'd say Hillary Clinton feels in tune with Rove's tactics more often than many Dems realize:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg

[Voice for Peace]

16. This is the weird mirror phenomenon

also called projection.
We look at other people and we see ourselves, but we think it's them.

[Skip Intro]

26. The talk of hope and change does not mesh with misleading fliers.

yeah, rovian comes to mind...

[blm]

34. Hillary has been putting out misleading fliers since Iowa and NH. You are outraged NOW?

Have you been sharing Hillary's bottle of Feign-Feign?

[kid a]

121. she's readin ghis handbook

[Yael]

10. Yeah -- like those nasty robocalls in SC against John Edwards

Oh wait....

[Skip Intro]

24. Or the bullshit labelling of the Clintons as racist?

[blm]

36. They aren't racists - their campaign was appealing to racists and that is why Bill apologized

on his I'm sorry tour to black churches. They knew exactly what they were doing at the time.

[karynnj]

75. Obama never labeled the Clintons racist

The Clinton campaign said the Obama campaign called them racist - they were called on playing the race card.

[rucky]

48. What's "Rovian" is to attack an opponent...

then act outraged when they fire one back.

[casus belli]

55. So, debating policy is Rovian now? I guess we're screwed. n/t

[samdogmom]

97. Nothing at all! It takes a "Rovian" to know a "Rovian"!

Maybe she's just angry that her well-compensated staff hasn't earned their keep this month.

[K Gardner]

4. Nazi??!! Why hasn't THIS been covered?! Unfreakinbelieavable. Where is Howard Dean? I

can't believe he thinks this is a good thing. She needs to be stopped.

[workinclasszero]

7. That was Hillary's defining moment

She is done. A spent force. Stick a fork in her.

[MagickMuffin]

8. So, it's perfectly alright to attack Obama by claiming he's using tactics out of Rove's playbook

Do as I say not as I do, appears that she doesn't want to play by the same standards.

I can't wait to cast my vote against her rhetoric, on March 4th.

[tabasco]

9. She needs to sound tuff so the Fox-watching morons will think she's tuff enuff to fight turrists!

That way, all the scaredy cats will vote for her.

"Look how tuff I am everybody! I can scold Obama like the vice principal!"

Brilliant!

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[Raine]

11. Hillary needs to leave out the "snark"

that's not doing her any good at all and makes her really unlikable. Sometimes I can just about really like her than she shows that "snarkiness" and turns me off all over again. :-(

[iconocrastic]

13. Her scolding is obviously well-practiced. It is obviously habitual

Somebody tell her STFU.

[dailykoff]

25. That was my thought too, but

we're not allowed to say that here. :)

[jlake]

12. Damn Hillary is hitting all the right notes!

Call a spade a spade.

[ErnestoG]

49. dissonant ones.

[NDambi]

51. uh huh...trying to be cute...I get the meaning of that...I'm sure you'll deny it though

[jlake]

69. What is the meaning you "get"?

[NDambi]

100. I'm sure you know..not going to play games

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NDambi]

113. Tell ya mama

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

98. Interesting

That the very act of not supporting Hillary can get one labeled as a sexist but you can play on racially charged words in support of Hillary..

[Az_lefty]

14. Hillary demonstartes more and more that she is not ready to be President...

she and her damned husband brought us NAFTA and supported it. If she can't handle being called on her bullshit she needs to go away.

[dailykoff]

17. She sounds scary!

Hope that's not homomisogynagist! K/R

[greguganus]

27. Do we want this woman with her finger on the button??? n/t

[dailykoff]

28. We don't want a neocon of either gender

make that any gender to include all our members. :)

[ErnestoG]

50. I dont want ANYONE like that with their finger on the button.

[beachmom]

19. Great post, Prosense. nt

[ProSense]

46. Thanks, and

to everyone for the recs.

:hi:

[greguganus]

23. ..."enough of the big rallys..." LMAO

Jealous much Hillary?

[ErnestoG]

53. yeah! STOP BEING POPULAR, dammit!

[Sanctified]

29. I was totally shocked by the video, I thought for sure she would accuse him of plagiarism

for using her campaign tactics.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

32. YOU GO HILLARY! ...that was EXCELLENT!..."MEET ME IN OHIO!"....THANKS FOR THE VIDEO!

[zulchzulu]

73. She meant "Beat Me In Ohio.." which he surely will...count on it

[ElsewheresDaughter]

87. ahhh that was weak....I thought you were witty, zulchzulu

[ProSense]

116. Wow! n/t

[BootinUp]

41. Proud of Hillary here, thanks for posting. nt

[Barack_America]

43. If it took her a month to learn about this flier that so *enrages* her...

...Then her campaign is more fucked up that I thought.

Fuck her, she's irrelevant. I've no doubt that this desperate tactic will lead to the same result as all the others...failure.

And, about Democrats using Rovian-tactics about one another...ahem...

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4330128&page=1

[Arugula Latte]

45. I can't tell if this is genuine anger or Hillary's newest persona.

And that is one of her big problems.

[Major Hogwash]

52. How in the hell is Hillary going to support Obama after she has said all this about him?

Or, to put it another way, who will believe anything she says later?

[ErnestoG]

54. She can plaster on that fake smile and then work against him clandestinely

[Major Hogwash]

103. Looks to me like she's already doing than now.

It's time to pull the plug on another misguided campaign full of crap.

[grantcart]

56. Here is Hillary's two appearences today (press con/SOBU) in literature:

Dr Jekyll meet Ms. Hyde

[AtomicKitten]

58. Excellent research.

K&R

[yellowcanine]

62. It might have been a little more convincing without the flunky in the background nodding in

agreement. This was a scripted attack meant to look as if it was Hillary speaking from the heart. This will fall as flat as the "change as xerox" line.

[Skip Intro]

64. I think that flunky was the Gov. of Ohio.

yeah, the Obama unity bus runs another one over...

[yellowcanine]

66. So what? He looked like a flunky nodding like that. So be it. The whole thing was a sorry

episode and she did her campaign no favors. There is no positive spin that can erase that reality.

[Skip Intro]

68. Well then to hell with the Democratic Governor of Ohio. All Hail Obama!

:eyes:

[yellowcanine]

90. This isn't about Obama.

[ErnestoG]

88. I was wondering who that bobble-headed idiot was....

thanks

[ElsewheresDaughter]

65. that "flunky" happens to be Govenor Strickland of Ohio

[Generic Brad]

67. Her campaign has obviously forgotten the Nazi & Hitler argument rule

Whoever compares their opponent to the Nazis or Hitler automatically loses the argument.

This crosses the line for me. I will now actively work to prevent her from securing the nomination. I want Democrats to win in November, not go down in flames.

[zulchzulu]

70. An EXCELLENT reference to the Hillpocrisies we are seeing

K&R

[ProSense]

114. More

hypocrisy

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

71. Finally I Get To See It! THAT Was The Video? She Wasn't Screaming At All!

Actually, it was an AWESOME response when it comes down to it.

Now I know for certain that the other side has come unhinged as it relates to overhyping this incident. This was SOOOOOOOOO not what I was expecting from the video. She responded EXACTLY with the level of strength we need ALL of our dems to have the ability to respond with towards attacks.

So THIS is what she's been getting these amazingly immature and vitriolic attacks here for today? THIS????? What a bunch a melodramatic overhyped characterization from the other side. Holy cow. I'm actually PROUDER THAN HELL of her for the way she handled herself with it. I thought it was gonna be FAR worse. FARRRRRR worse than that. Jesus christ can some overinflate things here. Unhinged? Hysterical? Bitch? Shrill? What a crock of shit. She responded with STRENGTH. I admire her for that. My god have some here lost their minds for hyping it up to be so much more than it was. I don't believe that's what the video is. Holy cow.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

108. Oh I agree she was neither screaming nor unhinged

It looked very deliberate and staged to me. The problem is, acting coach aside, Clinton is not a very good actor. The only moment where the outrage didn't look feigned was when she mentioned "big speeches and rallies". Then you could see some real resentment. How dare the upstart get the crowds that belong to her! :rofl:

[Carolina]

78. you've done it again, ProSense

great, fact-filled post. Thanks!

[grantcart]

81. I never saw a you tube with only one star before I would have thought

you would have gotten 2 stars if you had audio with your clip.

Boy Gov Strickland sure looked like he wished the mothership would come by and pick him up.

[ProSense]

99. LOL! n/t

[OneBlueSky]

102. THAT's what all the fuss is about??? . . .

I've seen post after post about Hillary's "hysteria," but when I finally saw the video, it sure didn't seem hysterical to me . . . a bit disingenuous, perhaps, since Hillary's tactics are no better than Obama's . . . but not hysterical by any means . . .

frankly, they're both running shitty campaigns -- though Hillary's is a bit worse . . . but neither one has impressed me one little bit . . . I keep thinking "is this really the best we can do?" . . . damn shame . . .

[ProSense]

104. Obama's campaign makes

Hillary's look like a bunch of amateurs.

[ProSense]

107. Not sure how this is going to help Hillary in Ohio

Marcia Pappas, Kennedy-Basher, Heads to Ohio for Clinton

by Azi Paybarah | February 22, 2008

Marcia Pappas, the outspoken activist who called Ted Kennedy’s endorsement of Barack Obama a “betrayal" to women, is heading to Ohio Wednesday to campaign for Hillary Clinton.

Pappas, the president of the National Organization for Women-New York State, said her past comments won’t be an issue.

She told me this morning, “Certainly what I said drew attention temporarily, but I don’t think that it takes away from Hillary Clinton’s campaign. What we try to do is bring attention to the issues that affect women and via Hilary being the sacrificial lamb at this point in history, we certainly have been able to talk about sexism in a way that we have not been able to talk about it before. And it’s been brought out to the forefront due to the fact that I spoke out so vehemently against Kennedy’s endorsement of Obama.”

Pappas also disputed the notion that Clinton would end her campaign anytime soon.

“I have not heard any call for her to drop out. In fact, I’ve heard calls from people that I know for her to stay in and fight till the end.”

more

[ProSense]

115. Wonder if this episode was designed to insulate her from today's photo flap?

On a conference call with reporters just now, Hillary spokesperson Howard Wolfson strongly denied any role in pushing the photo of Obama in a turban and Somali garb.

Drudge reported this morning that Clinton staffers had "circulated" the photo. He didn't say who circulated it, what level of Clinton staffer had circulated it, or to whom it had been circulated. Nonetheless, the media has been all over the story today.

Asked if the campaign had any role, Wolfson said, "No, not to my knowledge...I've never seen that picture before. I'm not aware that anyone else here has. I'm not aware that anyone here has circulated this e-mail."

Wolfson did say, however, that the campaign agreed with part of the message in the email -- that if the same photo had appeared of Hillary, it would have been a big story: "It is a common view among this campaign and our supporters that there is a difference in how the media covers our campaign and how it covers Senator Obama."

link

Damage control.

This latest incident is different in that it comes on the heels of Hillary's campaign and her surrogates promoting Obama's ties to "former members of a radical domestic terrorist group."

Obama's campaign would not connect Hillary to the latest attack story without validation.

It has happened before and Axelrod denounced the attempts to link Hillary's campaign to an attack:

The article further reported that Obama strategist David Axelrod said he did not "believe ... for a second" the allegation that Clinton's camp was behind the story.

[BootinUp]

117. Still proud of Hillary, thanks again. nt

[ProSense]

118. All the grandstanding and it was into cover up

her past comments in support of NAFTA

[apocalypsehow]

119. K & R.

n/t

[ProSense]

120. Clinton belittles Obama as 'a lot of talk, little action'

Clinton belittles Obama as 'a lot of talk, little action'

By Rick Pearson

FT. WORTH, Texas—Democrat Hillary Clinton made it clear to reporters aboard her campaign plane today that in the final days of the Texas-Ohio delegate spectacular, her focus will remain on portraying herself as stronger than Barack Obama on national security.

Clinton, a New York senator, said now that voters know Sen. John McCain of Arizona is the presumed Republican presidential nominee, they also know what to expect from him—using the GOP playbook to focus on the national security issue. She said that’s why she’s brought it up, in her speeches and a controversial ad, and rejects any charges from the Obama camp that she’s engaged in fear mongering.

“My opponent says it’s fear mongering to talk about national security and the fact that we’re at war,” Clinton told a crowd at the historic stockyards in Fort Worth. “Well, I don’t think people in Texas scare all that easily.”

Clinton sought to belittle Obama, a first-term senator from Illinois, as inexperienced compared to herself and McCain.

“He (McCain) will put forth his lifetime of experience. I will put forth my lifetime of experience. Sen. Obama will put forth a speech he made in 2002,” she told reporters aboard her plane.

“And that’s why national security is a critical issue for Democrats as we go into this primary because everyone knows that John McCain will make this election about national security. That is a given. And it will be imperative that we have a nominee who is able to stand on that stage with Sen. McCain, and I believe I am the person best able to do that,” she said.

“His entire campaign is based on one speech he gave at an anti-war rally in 2002,” Clinton said of an Obama speech opposing the war in Iraq. “And I give him credit for making the speech, but the speech was not followed up with action, which is part of the pattern we have seen repeatedly—a lot of talk, little action.”

more