Why Should Any One of Us at DU (Ever) have to Apologize for Not Hating Hillary Clinton?

[Mike03]

I think I've put my finger on how DU has changed from the way it was in previous elections. Last week, I found myself apologizing for the fact that I didn't hate Hillary Clinton, even though it was clear from my post that I had preferred Biden or Edwards.

This hateful attitude towards Hillary Clinton is creeping me out, because it seems disproportionate to what she has done, or the reality of her campaign. In my opinion, it's almost cartoonish parnanoia that people hate this person in almost a pathological way. Why?

I didn't vote for her, but I will vote for her if she is the nominee.

What is wrong with the following appraisal:

I LIKE AND RESPECT ALL OF OUR CANDIDATES.

MOST IF NOT ALL OF THEM HAVE CONTRIBUTED AND MOLDED THE OPINIONS AND EMPHASES OF THE REMAINING TWO CANDIDATES.

EVEN THOUGH I PREFERRED AND VOTED FOR SOMEONE ELSE, I HAVE NO RATIONAL REASON TO HATE HILLARY CLINTON.

I PREFER (...Insert the name of your candidate here, if it is not Hillary...) BUT WILL VOTE FOR ANY DEM OVER ANY REPUBLICAN, NO MATTER WHAT. I WON'T WASTE MY VOTE OR NOT VOTE AND RISK GETTING ANOTHER FOUR YEARS OF A REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATION.

[Armstead]

1. I don't hate Hillary -- But I feel very strongly that she should not be the nominee

I could give you a long list of substantiative policy reasons, as well as more intangible reasons, why the brand of politics she represents, and the special interests who support her, is the opposite of what IMO the Democrats should be these days.

Has nothing to do with pathological hatred or any other dismissive crap phrase you care to trot out.

[LostinVA]

33. It's not dismissive crap -- the OP is right, even if it doesn't pertain to you

[mentalsolstice]

74. I respect your view if it's based on intelligent reasoning

Hey, it's (was) a free country, right? However, I despise the pure shit-flinging that some here do.

[conspirator]

138. You should have used brackets around the (Not) Hating. It works both ways n/t

[Maddy McCall]

2. Rec.

[Metric System]

3. SHE'S BUSH IN A DRESS!!!!!! n/t

[foxer]

87. Pantsuit

[springhill]

112. Bullshit!

Do you even know her voting record or the things she has worked for in her life? You can't possibly make that claim if you were really basing it on reality.

[rodeodance]

116. Did you mean to put a sarcasm button on that comment??

[cjmastaw]

4. You get it just as much for not hating Obama

and you get it just a much for not loving bill clinton

you forget, these are the Uber-Lefties here.

They do not represent a cross-setion of democrats. They represent, in vast majory, the far far left.

there is no room for anyone who is middle-left; then they call you a freeper troll and tell you to go to the free republic.

[Deja Q]

9. Not the vast majority, but a majority nonetheless.

I know how you feel.

But, for better or worse, always try to remain on the high ground when attempting to discuss issues. And, heck, it's not easy at times...

[LostinVA]

34. You think they're "uber lefties"?

I think they're something else....

[ErnestoG]

81. Careful. You may need those "something elses" in the general election

Unless you are so full of that Hillary arrogance that you think you can do this easily by yourselves this time.

Remember 2004.

[cjmastaw]

92. I think they are EXTREME left.

Most democrats are middle left. that's what i'm saying.

[rodeodance]

110. Whatever you call them--they spew forth vile comments about Sen.Clinton-

[RetroLounge]

60. Uber-Lefties?

B'Bye...

RL

[eridani]

102. "Far left" = wanting the same goddam universal health care every other industrialized country has

--and a similar list of reasonable stands that consist of the "center" in just about every European democracy. Thanks for the rightwing memes. Jerk.

[yardwork]

103. I thought you left in a huff.

[Jamastiene]

135. If the shoe fits, Cinderella...

In the words of Courtney Love, "trolls a troll."


Oh, and for the "far far left" comment, with incorrect comma placement to boot, you have enabled me to use my handy dandy Ignore function once again. Buh-bye, asshole.

[enid602]

5. Blame Hill

The pukes and the MSM know she's the only one that will make waves and threaten the status quo. They don't want her as a nominee or in the White House. So, they collude to make it look like SHE'S responsible for the loss of $6T and two wars during the last 7 years. It was all Hillary's fault; vote for her, and you're voting for more of the same. It's pretty brilliant, when you come to think of it.

[Ken Burch]

22. Nobody running as a "moderate" can threaten the status quo.

Everybody elected as a bland centrist stays a bland centrist the whole way. They never get better AFTER they're elected.

[enid602]

30. Hillary

She's had to assume the 'moderate' stance in recent years to counteract the constant barrage of attacks occasioned by her perceived liberalism. I don't think the Hillary of the late '90's is dead, though.

[The_Casual_Observer]

6. "progressive" Greens, Freepers & now Obama cultists

all have a field day with the Clintons. Other than the new cult, it's the same stuff that's been going on since '92.

[Andromeda]

93. Yes it is.

It's been going on since Bill Clinton was elected. Hillary showed that she wasn't just the "little woman" and that she was an intelligent, strong person in her own right and entitled to her own opinions.

The right-wing crucified her for it.

Now, her detractors use the same garbage to smear her with.

[Maven]

7. "cartoonish paranoia"

is a good way to describe it.

In fact, I think her underdog status on DU has driven more people towards her than away from her.

[Yukari Yakumo]

11. Count me as one of those people. {nt}

uguu

[creeksneakers2]

91. Me too. n/t

[AJH032]

96. yep, including me!

all the Hillary bashing has turned me into a supporter of hers.

[SeattleGirl]

8. I don't hate Hilary.

Edwards was my choice, and now I have to choose again. I hate neither Clinton or Obama, and will make my choice after re-reading their campaign websites.

I can honestly say I hate and despise Dubya; I can also honestly say I feel nothing like that for either of the remaining Democratic candidates.

[noamnety]

10. "it seems disproportionate to what she has done"

I can only speak for myself, but I have a hard time picturing what a disproportionate amount of disgust is for a person who votes to commit, and to continue to fund, genocide.

[MonkeyFunk]

12. This is Bush's war

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. There's plenty of blame to go around.

The thing about genocides is that one person can't do all the work.

[martymar64]

17. And on Jan 20 2009, it'll be Hillbama's war.

Just as Vietnam became Nixon's War in 1969 after being LBJ's war. Expect us to still be talking about this in 2012 and wondering when our troops will come home.

[Armstead]

18. Which the Clintons help to shove down our throats

Why did the Clintons not stand up and defuse the phony WMD Crisis that Bush fabricated?

A "No Phony war" from the Clintons in 2002-03 would have done wonders to legitimize the opposition to that war.

[rodeodance]

113. Yes, it is the Bush/Repup war--

[Maven]

14. And yet no such outrage was expressed at Sen. Kerry

when he endorsed Obama and was thenceforth untouchable.

Or at Obama himself, for continuing to fund it. And for saber-rattling on Iran and Pakistan when he started his run for President.

BOTH remaining candidates have articulated plans to withdraw from Iraq. Anyone who thinks EITHER of our candidates is in favor of continuing the war suffers, in the words of the OP, from cartoonish paranoia. I am sick of people starting posts with the premise "X candidate is aligned with the enemy" when there's every indication to the contrary.

[JAbuchan08]

35. No matter how you cut it Hillary voted for the war and Obama didn't

[MonkeyFunk]

38. There was never a vote to go to war

Bush took us there. It's his war.

[JAbuchan08]

51. It was a vote to go to war

for all intents and purposes. Congress abdicated it's responsibilities. I used to buy into this same argument that you're pushing, but when you vote to defer to someone else's judgement you can't really complain when they exercise it.

[MonkeyFunk]

64. I agree the congress abdicated its responsibility

and shouldn't have. They should've stopped him. But they didn't, and it's still his war.

[JAbuchan08]

66. It's his war - except he needed a vote to authorize it

The IWR was essentially an ass-covering by congress.

However I do agree that Hillary abdicated her responsibility. That she should have voted to stop him, but she didn't. It's his war, except for the fact that it required congressional authorization.

[MonkeyFunk]

70. and without her vote

nothing would be different.

I opposed that resolution vehemently, but a lot of good Dems went along with it. Sucks, but Bush would've gotten it with all the republicans plus Lieberman.

I just don't see the usefulness of remaining so angry at the Dems when Bush is behind all this. It's his war.

[JAbuchan08]

77. I will grant that Bush was the catalyst for this mess, but that doesn't excuse Hillary

and it never will.
She is a hawk and she doesn't even apologize for it.
Maybe she is not that far removed from Obama, but I'm not going to reward her for her tough posturing - especially as she hasn't given it up.
Maybe when you remove the IWR vote from the equation there is not a lot of wiggle room between Hillary and Obama, but he's not trying to be the "tougher than thou" candidate. Frankly Hillary's wannabe tough-gal swagger offends me ALMOST as much as Bush's.
I feel that Hillary still thinks of the IWR as a good vote. I do believe that many Dems voted for the IWR out of political expediency, but Hillary is one of the few that I sense thought it was a good policy vote. I think she only regrets it in light of Bush's actions - but it was a bad vote independent of Bush.

[rodeodance]

115. Yeah--that is what I hear from the Hannity/Rush L types--

[rodeodance]

120. OK Hannity, I will believe you if you say so.

[joshcryer]

75. Yes, what many people fail to understand was that we were already at war.

[rodeodance]

114. So so many spout off RW propaganda on this board -it is part of their Reasoning/

justification for opposing Sen. Clinton.

I have to wonder if they are aware that they are spouting off RW talking points??

[LostinVA]

39. Because he wasn't in the Senate yet -- good gods

And, as per his Iraq votes during his Senate term, he would have voted the same way as Biden, Kerry, Edwards, HRC, etrc.

[JAbuchan08]

52. Doesn't matter to me the choice is now between someone who voted for the war and someone who didn't

that is the bottom line to me.

I am not supporting Obama with great loyalty or joy, but he is the last option.

[rodeodance]

117. What happens to the argument that it was the Bush team that ILLEGALLY

invaded Irag?

[Maven]

40. Sorry, he doesn't get credit for votes he wasn't even around for.

You don't get to claim the high road for saying what you "would have done," especially when the conditions have changed so dramatically.

In fact, Obama himself said he didn't know what he would have done at the time when he was defending Kerry's vote in 2004.

All indications show that Obama has taken the "safe" position on the war since getting to the Senate, meaning he voted consistently to keep funding it as soon as he got there. At one point Obama said there was no difference between Bush's war policy and his own. There is no reason to believe that he would have risked his neck at the time to vote against the IWR. He just doesn't have a risk-your-neck kind of record in the Senate, particularly on issues of national defense.

[JAbuchan08]

54. So Obama is nearly as bad as Hillary?

great argument.

[Maven]

63. The argument is, make your decision based on facts.

Not preconceptions.

[JAbuchan08]

65. The facts are, Hillary voted for the war, Barack did not

The facts are, that Barak's reasoning in the years since has been no worse than Hillary's and no more disingenuous, so basically you're tearing down Barak for voting the exact same way as Hillary, and because he *might* have voted the same way as Hillary on IWR *if given the opportunity.*
To me that reeks of insincerity. Hillary wants to be the hawk, let her be don't try to pretend that she's not.

sorry Barack

[Maven]

67. The fact is, Barack didn't GET to vote for it, and he very well may have.

And in fact, everything (including his own statements and his votes since then) indicate he probably would have, to put it very bluntly.

What reeks of insincerity is the attempt to give someone credit for something he had no ability to do.

If Obama does become the nominee you may be very disappointed as it's more than likely running against McCain he'd take a far more overtly hawkish position on defense than he has to date.

[cjmastaw]

97. Obama did give a well known speech against the war

That's how you know he wouldn't have given his authorization for it. The logic is that if you give a speech then adopt a position different than your speech then I could see where you would make the point that he may or may not have voted for it if he had to vote.

[noamnety]

137. A lot of senators gave great anti-war speeches as they voted FOR it.

or they gave great speeches, then voted to fund it first chance they got.

If I refuse to allow my 14 year old daughter to go out to the movies with a 28 year old man, I don't vote in a family meeting to let her make the decision for herself, and I don't give her money for popcorn.

[rodeodance]

118. First he said NO, then he said he did NOT know and said Bush policy was fine, then

he safely voted for funding for war first years in Senate, then he came out against it when he made decision to run for Pres.

my summary of your very good post.

[CyberPieHole]

94. Obama would have voted "present" if he had bothered to get his slacker butt

back to congress in the first place. He has missed more votes than he could possibly have an excuse for. He has admitted he doesn't know how he would have voted for the IWR and he has funded the war since he has had a chance to do so. So don't get so high and mighty with the vapid Mr. Obama.

[Andromeda]

95. How could he?

Obama didn't have to make that decision because he wasn't in the U.S. Senate yet.

After he was elected he voted with the majority to fund the war.

[LostinVA]

36. THANK YOU -- excellent post

[rodeodance]

126. Obama and hissaber-rattling on Iran a while go really scared me.

[okasha]

100. Obama has voted to fund the war.

He bears just as much blame as anyone else who's done so.

[noamnety]

101. Okay, but this is a thread about Clinton, not Obama.

So I am responding to someone saying the anger at CLINTON is disproportionate to what she's done. And while some of the anger seems misplaced and sexist, and I speak out against that when I see it, anger in a broad sense really cannot be disproportionate, given her part in promoting and funding genocide.

And I will add that she has STILL not spoken out against, or expressed any regret about, the half million Iraqi children that Bill Clinton helped starve to death. She claims that experience as part of her resume, which is mind boggling to me.

So I look at her, and I see hundreds of thousands of dead bodies piled up at her feet, and then I come here and see someone here saying "you seem way too angry about that."

I have friends, good friends, who are still dealing with PTSD from things Bill Clinton did which she appears to be proud of. I have friends who are dealing with PTSD from things she voted for and funded. I've been on the phone with police trying to figure out if some of my friends are dead or alive, as a result of her actions. And a million other families have gone through worse than that, because it's been their family, their children, not just their friends, and they had to watch first hand as their children starved or had limbs blown off.

WTF at being "too" angry about that. Seriously.

[rodeodance]

111. I tend to look more broardly at her whole plan for the future.

[BlackVelvet04]

13. But it's so "cool" to hate Hillary...

everybody does it.

I've never seen as much hatred toward a Democratic candidate.

[krabigirl]

56. lol, that's exactly it. Scarily enough, it's the Rush Limpballs RWingers who started with the hate.

how can that be cool?

[rodeodance]

123. And many on this board who follow suit and spout off their hate-filled rhetoric. Yes

how cool it that!!

[AX10]

16. Because she is a

hardball player and does not take shit from anyone.
That's why she is hated.

[martymar64]

20. But she won't fight for working people (most of us)

She only fights for those that bring her big fat campaign contributions.
You dance with those that brung you.

[LostinVA]

42. Not true at all -- her first for working people has been a big reason she's been elected to the Sena

[martymar64]

50. She was elected to the Senate because of her last name.

She's just another DLC corporate stooge that LOOOOOOVES outsourcing. Expect workers issues to be ignored for the next 4 years.
If you want to think she'll represent us against corporations and the aristocracy, then I won't interrupt your little fantasy.
If your job gets outsourced, then at least there's still the military, Iraq needs fresh IED fodder.

[LostinVA]

58. Again, your post shows you know little about her record and voting record

I don't have a "little fantasy" -- I deal in facts, which is why she's my choice and then Senator Edwards then Senator Biden (since VP Gore chose not to run).

[martymar64]

61. IWR, Kyl/Lieberman, support from Rupert Murdoch and Norman Hsu, etc

I know her record just fine.

[rodeodance]

119. Please read her record before you spout off crap/misinformation.

[eridani]

104. Like hell she won't. She takes anything from her corporate funders that they tell her to take

I'd feel different if that "toughness" was in any way used on behalf of ordinary people.

[rodeodance]

125. gee, have you bothered to look at the money Obama gets form corps??

[eridani]

129. Yes. The corporations won big today, all the way around n/t

[rodeodance]

131. You did not address my question.

[eridani]

133. I did too answer it. You think I LIKE the fact that "viable" candidates--

--must be vetted by corporations to qualify for the highest office in the land?

[eridani]

145. Well, yes, as a matter of fact

That's why I don't like either one of them.

[Spiffarino]

19. I'm not on the haters bandwagon

I do wish she'd have waited at least one election cycle before entering the race. We need a president who isn't a Bush or a Clinton for a while. This isn't some Third World country where the presidency reverts to the "other" family every few years.

Besides that, she's a corporatist who thinks NAFTA is just great.

[martymar64]

21. Remember she also loves outsourcing

Expect more jobs to leave us.

[Maven]

24. If you think Obama will reverse NAFTA, you are fooling yourself.

Obama also wants to "reform" NCLB. That's not the kind of confidence-inspiring proposal that makes me believe he'd change much of anything.

[Spiffarino]

27. I don't know if he will or not

I do know that Hillary won't.

[Maven]

37. Well, now you do. His position papers show unequivocally that he won't.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/

Be a Tough Negotiator for Smart Trade Agreements: The process of globalization is bringing millions of people into the global economy, increasing the efficiency of resource allocation through stronger capital markets, raising productivity by putting new technologies to work, and exploiting efficiencies of integrated supply networks. But globalization also leaves some Americans behind as patterns of production change, jobs relocate, and wage pressures intensify. Barack Obama supports trade agreements that lower prices for American consumers while also opening up fair and competitive markets for the sale of American-made goods and services abroad. Obama will ensure that trade agreements include strong labor and environmental protections and that all Americans share the rewards of globalization. As president, he will lead a proactive strategy to make sure that those who lose their jobs to globalization have the tools and resources to find other work and share in the benefits of the global marketplace.

Promote American Businesses Abroad: Trade can create wealth and drive innovation through competition. Barack Obama supports a trade policy that ensures our goods and services are treated fairly in foreign markets. At the same time, trade policy must stay consistent with our commitment to promote improved labor and environmental practices. In its first six years, the Bush Administration has filed only 16 cases to enforce its rights under WTO agreements. This compares to 68 cases filed during the first six years of the Clinton Administration. President Bush has failed to address the fact that China has engaged in ongoing currency manipulation that undercuts US exports; that China fails to enforce US copyrights and trademarks and that some of our competitors create regulatory and tax barriers to the delivery and sale of technology goods and services abroad. Barack Obama will fight for fair treatment of our companies abroad.

Yeah, that sounds like a real rabble-rouser in the international trade arena, to me. And this is an area I deal with every day, professionally, by the way. As an aside: Did you notice he cites figures from the Clinton administration to make the case for Democratic policies on trade? :rofl: Ironic, no?

From his white paper:

Amend the North American Free Trade Agreement: Obama believes that NAFTA and its potential
were oversold to the American people. Obama will work with the leaders of Canada and Mexico to fix
NAFTA so that it works for American workers.

So there you have it, in black and white. Obama has no plans to undo NAFTA; he simply plans to "reform it," just like Clinton.

[Spiffarino]

108. So Edwards was the only choice left.

Well, we're certainly fucked.

[LostinVA]

44. Wrong -- HRC wants to get rid of NCLB -- which is a good thing

[rodeodance]

121. Yes, she said a few months ago.

[eridani]

105. Of course Obama is just as bad in that respect

Even Edwards was late to the party on NAFTA and outsourcing, but he did get there eventually.

[robbedvoter]

23. MSM hysteria is catchy...OTOH, the backlash to it is building too: see votes.

[hfojvt]

25. because she is Liebermanesque and thus one of the enemy

or worse.

We, the undersigned would like to see a Democratic party that is progressive. One that opposes Republican and corporate policies and plans. Nothing is more harmful to that goal than prominent Democrats who incorporate Republican ideas into their platform, and nobody does this more than the Clintons and the DLC. So here we are trying to create a progressive tax system, and we have Democrats campaigning on "middle class tax cuts" and defining the "middle class" as a person who makes $110,000 a year. Now the RWNM can say "even Democrats agree that tax cuts are good for the economy". Here we are trying to create, and fund, social programs that help the poor, but how can we do that when "Democrats" number 1 priority is "fiscal responsibility". Since we already ruled out increasing taxes, put that together with fiscal responsibility and we are gonna be cutting funding for social programs.

Throw in things like "free trade" and "tough on terror" and "grow the economy" and the Democratic Party becomes more and more like a "moderate Republican party". Presumably we will "win" more elections that way, but it did not seem to work in 1994, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2002, or 2004, and currently the country is not very happy with a Democratic Congress that is Bush's lap dog. Hillary is simply not part of the solution. She's a big part of the problem. And so is Bill.

[Maven]

29. I don't see a candidate who trumpets "unity" with Republicans as helpful to progressive causes

either.

Again, posts that start out with "X candidate is aligned with the enemy" and work from there should be dismissed out of hand.

[hfojvt]

41. neither do I, and I have been lukewarm about Obama at best

Obama, however, does not bring the baggage that Hillary does. Republicans did not, for example, run against Obamacare in 1994 and take control of both houses of Congress. Michelle Obama did not sign the telecommunications act, or push for NAFTA, or promise to "end welfare as we know it" or say "the era of Big Government is over", etc.

But I suppose posts that contain the word 'lukewarm' should be dismissed out of hand. That's much easier than trying to refute a thesis.

[Maven]

46. Obama has his own baggage which will become apparent in the GE.

They all do. Hillary has a lot of "pros" in her column in terms of the electorate that aren't often discussed. In particular, I think she'll drive tremendous turnout of women voters to vote for her.

And I don't think you're seeing the upside to "Hillarycare," which is that it would probably backfire against Republicans in the general. That is, Hillary owns the healthcare reform issue because it's such a big part of her past, and it's an issue that Republicans are completely out of touch with voters on. People want healthcare reform. I also see it as a plus as far as actually getting it done once she's in office. I think she probably sees it as unfinished business, a sort of blemish on her record that needs to be remedied. Thus, I believe she'd have a personal impetus to actually get it done. I also think her health plan is simply better than Obama's.

[hfojvt]

55. anecdotally, my mom doesn't like her

and she's a Democrat. Around here, Claire McCaskill, Kathleen Sebelius, and my local state rep are all against her too. Not to mention a couple of Republican women I have heard from, one of which voted Democrat in the last election. I am not seeing the women factor as all that powerful.

The Obama baggage will be a new tune that people may not learn all that quickly whereas Hillary's haters hits are as well known as "Camptown races"

[Maven]

62. Anecdotally, my mom voted for her.

In Florida, but in any case she did. And a lot of her female friends did too. I don't think anecdotal evidence is helpful. But I do think the exit poll numbers speak volumes, and they show that Hillary's candidacy is driving high turnout of women voters proportionally and that she wins them by double-digit margins.

[LostinVA]

68. Anecdotally, my Republican Dad and Dem Mom will vote for her

And, hearing about HRC's baggage will be as boring for the average voter as listening to their grandpa tell the same story for the 1,000th time.

The polls and voting trends show women voters as very important this election season.

[JAbuchan08]

79. Maybe because she voted for the IWR?

[rodeodance]

127. Thanky them for me will you.

[Andromeda]

90. That's a silly analogy.

And equally silly is your comparison of your mother, McCaskill and Sebelius.

You're ignoring the facts. Women DO make up most of Hillary's demographic and you're trying to falsely minimize her support among women---of all ages.

The women voting for Hillary as a whole are older but she has a lot of firm support from younger women also.

[eridani]

106. Except for those of us who don't think there is anything "feminist"

--about putting the entire female population of Iraq under house arrest.

[NoPasaran]

43. "We, the undersigned?"

Can't help noticing the total lack of signatures there.

[hfojvt]

47. I am hoping to collect some

right now there are only several voices in my head agreeing with me. Also I was pretty sure I was elected spokesperson of the HHH club.

[krabigirl]

57. Obama isn't Liebermanesque as well? He was his mentor, and O always talks about unity with Repubs.

[JAbuchan08]

69. Doesn't mean he agrees with them

[hfojvt]

84. sigh, I am so old, I can remember a time when "anti-Hillary"

did not mean "pro Obama"

Plus, I have covered that in my journal, why I think Obama would be more progressive than Clinton.

[rodeodance]

124. Obama's showing up at fundraisers and lavishing praise on Joe L. during

the 04 election cycle made me sick.

[LostinVA]

26. "Pathological" is an excellent way to put it

It's creeping me out, too. As are the out-and-out lies, use of RW memes and slurs, use of RW sources, and an "attack mode" over ANYTHING about ANYONE.

What's especially funny is that HRC and Obama have very close Senate voting records, with Senator Clinton's record a little to the left of Senator Obama's.

In the last few weeks, I've been called a troll, a racist, a sexist, a fucking bitch, etc. just because I don't hate HRC. People on here may not like what I post, but they know all of that is patently untrue.

[Armstead]

32. That's as stupid as saying Hillary supporters are pathological cultists

I can only speak for myself, but I have very sound reasons for being very strongly against a restoration of The Clintons and perpetuating their control of the power in the Democratic Party.

You are more than free to agree or disagree.

But associating mental illness with long held frustrations that far transcend the current candidacy of Hillary is indulging in either 1)Projecting your own form of mental illness or 2)Cynically using the same Rovian tactics that you accuse those on the otehr side of.

[LostinVA]

45. Some of it IS pathological -- and neither I nor the OP said it was everypne, did we?

NO.

If you honestly think some of teh true hatred spewed here isn't scary and pathological, then you must be reading a different DU than most of us.

[creeksneakers2]

99. Hatred of the Clintons is mysterious

It takes such a hold over people who have it. I can't figure out what drives them. The reasons given for hating the Clintons never make sense. They are almost always some expression of hatred given as a reason, like "I hate them because they are fucking corporate terrorists out to destroy the working class." The reason don't resemble reality at all.

I've notice that once the Clinton hatred starts it gets worse. Hillary haters desire to read and spread stories about what terrible people the Clintons are. The stories temporarily satisfy a need for the Clinton haters. But then, after hearing the stories, the Clinton haters hate the Clintons even more. So they want to hear and spread more stories.

I watched the right wingers hate the Clintons worse and worse from 1992 through 2000. They reached depths of depravity that equated to profound mental illness. Most of them couldn't get through a day without hearing some new lies about the Clintons. Every new lie was greeted as a new great truth that was going to destroy the Clintons. People were willing to believe anything just to satisfy this bizarre urge. The more they wanted lies the more they got. The more lies they got, the more they wanted.

I see the same thing happening on the left now.

[eridani]

107. So, you like Mark Penn and Rupert Murdoch?

Tell us why. Inquiring minds want to know.

[creeksneakers2]

139. Are they reasons to hate Hillary?

[eridani]

143. I hate them, not her. And I won't vote for anybody with associates like that n/t

[LostinVA]

28. And, to paraphrease your OP: why should anyone of us have to "prove" why we support HRC?

Especially longterm DUers who aren't trolls.

[JAbuchan08]

31. Why should I have to apologize for disliking her?

I suspect that those who feel as if they have to "apologize" for not disliking Hillary Clinton are getting blowback for trying to shame people for disliking her.
Nobody has an Obligation to like anyone. I dislike Hillary for her Iraq war vote, and every time she tries to defend it she patronizes, condescends and insults my intelligence, making me dislike her even more. Not to mention the fact that her supporters seem to take great joy in lumping her every detractor in with Chris Mathews and Newt Gingrich.
You may think that Hillary's opponents drew first blood, but remember it was after she was criticized on her POLICY positions that she first pulled the gender card.
Then she tried to imply that questioning her sincerity was the same thing as questioning her womanhood while lumping every criticism of her in with Chris Mathews obsessions.
Then her husband began to insinuate that Obama and his supporters were naive (presumably because they were taking his admittedly vague principles over her disasterous pragmatism)
I'm sorry, but I DO feel like you should have to apologize for liking Hillary Clinton, because... well how can you like her after she's been so harsh and cruel to your fellow Democrats?

[LostinVA]

71. I don't have to apologize to you or anyone else for a fucking thing -- how arrogant

Welcome to Ignore.

[JAbuchan08]

78. run away.... run away.....

so long as you get the last word its okay.

apology accepted.

[electron_blue]

48. I honestly think a lot of the hate is rooted in sexism and misogyny.

I'm sick of it.

[LostinVA]

72. I've been saying that for a year

[hfojvt]

86. I think that's true for some, even on DU

but I am not sure if that is true of "a lot" and probably not true as often as it is charged.

[electron_blue]

89. Obviously we have different takes on this, and probably different life experiences

affecting our take.

[LittleClarkie]

49. Conversely, if I don't support Hillary it doesn't make me a Hillary hater

Reminds me too much of when someone criticizes the president and is called a hater, as if there was just hate with no reason or thought.

[LostinVA]

73. Who said it did?

You KNOW how nutso some of the anti-Hillary posters are, just like some of the anti-Obama, and anti-Edwards posters are. They are pathological.

[LittleClarkie]

82. Indeed, I'm glad you were inclusive. But sometimes, just because of my icon

I get lumped in. "Typical Obama supporter" some say, as if we were all the same. I'm sure it happens on your end too.

On edit: case in point, the reference to "Obama cultists" in this thread. I can't help but think the poster means all of us. And if he doesn't, I'd hope he'd make that clearer.

[rodeodance]

122. well, little clarkie, I have known you to be fair. But I, too think their are so

many Obama supporters that spew hate-full crap so often--at times I think it is cult-like thinking.

[HughMoran]

83. Imagine if it was just good old fashioned criticism

If I posted a picture of the "Hillary is the antiChrist" bumper sticker I've seen on some cars, many, many people here would think it was cool. In fact, I mentioned it in a post previously and people did think it was appropriate!

[krabigirl]

53. I feel the same way as you. I will always vote for a Dem over a Repub.

[rosetta627]

59. Because she voted to invade Iraq

Duh.

[rodeodance]

128. well hello Hannity--or is it Rush L. or.???

[Jamastiene]

136. Nice post Hannity.

[joshcryer]

76. Republican talking points rub off on you after nearly 20 years. People are just desensitized.

[ErnestoG]

80. Add this line to the bottom of your pledge...

I WILL VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE EVEN THOUGH I KNOW FULL WELL THAT THEY WILL GET CREAMED IN THE ELECTION.

[Maven]

85. More "vote for my candidate OR ELSE" fearmongering from the Obama crowd

[rodeodance]

130. So many are becoming so Bush/Cheney like that is is reall scary.

[ErnestoG]

144. Really? That's actually the mantra of the Hillarites on DU.

Guess you're looking at a mirror image or something....

[femrap]

88. You must be a reasonable and kind man. nt

[sniffa]

98. YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO APOLOGIZE

YOU SHOULD JUST BE ASHAMED

[Beacool]

109. Apologize??????????

Quite the contrary, I'm extremely proud to be a Hillary supporter and so are millions of people.

The one I can't understand why he's getting all this support is Obama. No matter how hard I try I'm not impressed by the man. I hear him speak and can see that he's a great speaker..........and that's about it. I find the guy smarmy, cocky and not prepared to be president.

If he ends up being our nominee, so be it, but I won't donate a penny of my money nor spend a minute of my time campaigning for him. The only reason why I would drag myself to the voting booth in Nov. are the Supreme Court appointments.

[VotesForWomen]

132. correct; the haters have bought into the charicature of her created by the right. and talk about som

some irrational hate. some of the people on this board have forgotten the 8 straight years of vicious attacks on the clintons during bill's presidency (and after, for that matter.)

[Jamastiene]

134. Every Hillary hating post I have seen uses right wing

propaganda straight out of Faux/Republican/right wing play books. It's sickening. It's like someone merged DU and FR. :puke:

[robbedvoter]

140. Someone requested a purge of the likes of you (or me). No kidding.

I asked it they were kidding, and got a nasty "NO" back.

[Miss Chybil]

141. I won't apologize. I did vote for her.

But, I like Obama and Edwards, too. Imagine that. I had to pick one. May the best Democratic candidate win!

[hayu_lol]

142. Many women out there don't like Hillary...in fact, they hate her...

some examples of this hatred are force-fed to their followers by Huffington, Dowd, Noonan, and Schafley. They don't like Hillary and are quite rabid about their hate.

Rush, Matthews, O'Reiley, and the rest of what passes for the Repugnant Intelligentsia, all 'hate' Hillary.

What these people really hate is an uppity female who has chosen to rise above her 'station' in life. And, make no mistake, their hatred is real.

Hillary has spent the greater part of her professional life working for those who needed help and weren't getting it. Some 20 years of such help. Yet we have posters who continually, in the face of this record of achievement, say that Hillary is not for the ordinary person. Her history speaks for itself.

Hate Hillary? Must be, in part at least, just the fact that she is a woman. How else can this mindless hatred, groundless hatred, continue?
Only in our and a few other countries in the world can a woman rise above the role of breeders. Only in a very few countries can women hope to rise to the top. Women by the way, helped bring this about. Generations of women who thought highly enough of their own abilities to make it happen. Maybe not for them, but for those women who came after them.

Hate Hillary? Why?