dean does it again aggghhhh

[corporatewhore]

CONCORD MONITOR NOTES DEAN'S CLAIM

On Saturday, Dec. 27, the Concord Monitor in Concord, NH, noted: "Dean recently mailed brochures to homes in New Hampshire with a headline stating that Dean is the only candidate who 'opposed the war from the start.'"

Here is an image taken from the brochure, which the Dean campaign has mailed to people in New Hampshire and other states:

It's hard to believe that Dean supporters would stand for this kind of misrepresentation. We won't stand for it.

WHAT YOU CAN DO:

1.--Contact all of your friends who are Dean supporters.

2.--Contact the media and ask them why they are not asking Dean about his misrepresentation. Remember to be polite and keep to the point. Make each communication unique. No form letters.

Here are Email addresses for letters to the editor:
http://www.kucinich.us/responses_contacts.php

Here are phone numbers for talk shows:
http://www.kucinich.us/responses_phones.htm

Here are a few key places to contact:

New York Times News Desk phone [phone], fax [phone],
Email [email protected]

Los Angeles Times News Desk phone [phone], fax: [phone].

Washington Post Political Desk phone [phone], fax [phone].

USA Today News Desk phone [phone], fax [phone].

[corporatewhore]

1. for got to add

WHAT THE FACTS ARE:

As you all know so well, Dennis Kucinich led the effort against the war in the House of Representatives, is the only candidate who voted against the war, is the only candidate who consistently opposed the war from the beginning and continues to oppose it now, and is the only candidate with an exit strategy. His "Prayer for America" speech against the buildup to war in February 2002 catalyzed this campaign. Rev. Al Sharpton and Ambassador Carol Mosley-Braun also opposed the war.

The war is not over. Soldiers are dying every day. And Dean would like to continue the military occupation of Iraq for "a few years," as he said in the debate on December 9th. Dennis is campaigning on his record of opposition to the war and his plan to end it in 90 days.
Dean's flyer and mass mailing effectively calls Dennis a liar. People have begun asking Dennis whether he really opposed the war. Dean knows the truth. After we complained in October about his similar misrepresentations in TV ads in New Hampshire, he acknowledged Dennis' leadership against the war at an AFL-CIO forum and stopped running the ads. He later acknowledged Dennis' courage on this issue during a national debate. And yet he continues to use a flyer that says "Only Dean Opposed the War from the Start."

If Dr. Dean chooses to gloss over the inconsistencies of the positions he took during the first stage of this war, that's his business. But when he denies Dennis's record, that becomes our business, and
it ought to be the business of the media. Dean is misrepresenting a material fact, and doing so despite his demonstrated knowledge of the truth. It is the media's responsibility to find out why he is doing this. The public has a right to know.

Here is information on who opposed the war when:
http://www.kucinich.us/antiwar.php

[Raya]

18. Watched Dean Campaign Take-Over My Kucinich action group. I am ANGRY at

all the misrepresention of Dean that went on. I am angry at the fact the the campaign seem to be willing to use whatever tactic to win.

When I was doing IMAGINE AMERICA meetings for Kucinich, Dean was seen as just one of those establishment politicians. We have been calling for an end of sanctions on Iraq for years. Dean was saying nothing significant against what Bush was up to even during the IWR vote.

As far as I have discovered Dean was completely new to the
peace movement and has very little in common in philosophy with me and my friends.

It is disgracefull for him to pretend to have been against the War before Kucinich.

[Myra]

31. But, it seemed like I was just reading reports about Dean wanting the DNC

To get the other Democratic candidates to defer to him,
and not say anything critical.

Where did I read that?

[DemBones DemBones]

213. Yes, Dean wants everyone else to sit down and shut up while he

lies and bullies his way to the nomination.

He's just like Bush: a smart-ass rich boy who thinks he's entitled to whatever he wants whenever he wants it. What a tragedy it will be for the Democratic Party if this arrogant little man is actually nominated.

:puke:

[Freddie Stubbs]

61. DK led the effort against the war in the House of Representatives? LOL

Not a very effective leader, it would seem.

[no name no slogan]

103. Try it yourself

when you've not only got to go against the opposing party's leadership, but the YOUR OWN PARTY'S LEADERSHIP, as well.

That's called standing up for your convictions. Jumping on an already-moving bandwagon to garner additional political support, OTOH, is not.

[Freddie Stubbs]

139. Call it what you will, it is working

Dean is on his way becoming the Democratic nominee for President. Kucinich is on his way to being a footnote in history.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

171. So you support lying as long as you win?

hmm interesting..

TWL

[Freddie Stubbs]

258. They all lie -- even Kucinich

None one the nine running for President are pure. They all bend the truth when it is to their advantage.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

267. Time to bring some substance to the thread.

"They all lie -- even Kucinich"

I will allow you to expand on this.
It's time for you to post substance.. I haven't found it in any of your posts on this thread so far.


TWL

[Freddie Stubbs]

273. He said that his candidacy was not a long shot

That makes either a liar or very out of touch with reality. He has been in politics long enough to know that he is a long shot.

[diamondsoul]

297. Actually that's not at all a lie- in context-

Just like you Dean supporters keep telling us.

He's been asked over and over what does HE think of his candidacy being termed a "long-shot". His response never wavers. "I'm used to being a long-shot, I thrive on it.", and how many times has he won elections after being called a "long-shot"? How many times has Dean?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

318. Dean: 1,256 lies Dennis:1 (maybe)

n/t

[kerry-is-my-prez]

317. It's a sad comment on our society, isn't it? Kinda reminds you of the Bush

phenomenon.

[Freddie Stubbs]

322. Like it or not

Dean and his people are taking over the party.

[bearfartinthewoods]

244. to garner additional political support, ???

HAHAHAHAH..oh stop it..yer killin' me...additional support?

he was a no name govenor of a little state until he cast his eyes about and saw a ready made "base" of people begging for attention.

that's where deans's anti-war convictions came from.....

[Freddie Stubbs]

256. I wonder where Kucinich's pro-choice views came from

Funny how he switched right before he ran for President. There are no saints running.

[redqueen]

259. Didn't Dean say he would appoint pro-life judges?

I can't remember... didn't he say he would not promise not to do that? That he wouldn't swear only to nominate judges that were clearly intent on upholding standing laws?

Geez, I guess you're right. We should all stop supporting the candidate who may change his mind, but actually stands for something once it's set -- to supporting the candidate who changes his mind based on which way the wind is blowing, and who can't even be counted on to follow that decision up with action.

How fooled we all were! Dean is clearly the most honest candidate running, and if you look at his record in Vermont, it's clear he cared about people more than big biz, right? Right?!

[Freddie Stubbs]

264. Dean never said that he would appoint pro-life juddges

[redqueen]

268. No, no... I don't remember him saying that

But I could have sworn someone had a quote where he'd asserted that he would not refuse to appoint a pro-life judge.

Not sure... anyone else remember this? I remember being quite appalled as this means he would not refuse to appoint people who are not qualified (won't uphold existing law).

[kerry-is-my-prez]

321. Make it easier to convict guilty people & not have as many technicalities

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/10/273853.shtml

“I’m looking to steer the court back towards consideration of the rights of the victims”, Dean said three weeks ago in a radio interview with Bob Kinzel of the Vermont News Service. “I’m looking to make it easier to convict guilty people and not have as many technicalities interfere with justice, and I’ll appoint someone to fit that bill”.

Asked if that reflected a “get-tough-on-crime” approach, Dean responded: “I’m looking for someone who is for justice. My beef about the judicial system is that it does not emphasize truth and justice over lawyering. It emphasizes legal technicalities and rights of the defendants and all that.”

-snip-

Throughout his six-year tenure, Dean’s public chiding of the judiciary has led many lawyers to question the doctor-governor’s grasp of constitutional law. In their eyes, Dean views the protections contained in the Bill of Rights as mere “technicalities”.

-snip-

“Dean is just ignorant. I don’t think he understands what judges ought to do.” Says Michael Mello, a Vermont Law School professor who teaches advanced courses in constitutional law. “He perceives the Supreme Court as being broken in some way and sees himself on a mission to fix it.”

[Freddie Stubbs]

324. He has a beef with the Supreme Court?

Wow. I'm sure that there aren't any people here at DU who would agree with him.

[redqueen]

325. Yes, his stance on law and justice

and his lack of understanding of it is another big reason he's fallen to the last Democrat I'd choose to vote for.

[Freddie Stubbs]

330. Yet that stance makes him more electable

Funny how that works.

[redqueen]

333. Which stance?

The one where he claims that most defendents are guilty? Is that the one the voters like?

Or the one where he says that the public defenders office is supposed to be adversarial with the governor's?

Please be specific.

[Freddie Stubbs]

336. Being tough on criminals

Caring more about convicting and punishing criminals is much more popular than worrying about the rights of the accused. You may not like that, but that is the country in which we live.

[redqueen]

338. Exactly - right wing red meat

Sorry, but this is how centrists have conducted themselves for too long. This is the reason 'that is the country in which we live'.

For it to change, it has to start with us. As liberals, it's our job to staunch the flow of ideas to the right. We can't do that by co-opting them. We learned that lesson (or should have).

It's not about what I like, it's about right and wrong. The reason our founding fathers were careful about criminal law is because it's wrong to imprison people unjustly.

By imitating republicans, we've managed to ensure that this careless, flippant attitude towards 'the accused' is deeply engrained.

So, do we want it to stop? Or do we want to make it worse?

[Freddie Stubbs]

340. Being soft on crime didn't work for Mike Dukakis

His opposition of the death penalty made him look like a kooky far-left liberal. Clinton had a more balanced outlook, and was successful.

[redqueen]

341. I see your point

But somehow, I just think that after the attacks, the war, the economy... that most people will respond more positively to real plans to solve our problems, not the usual feel-good macho talk that cowardly candidates manage to pass as 'strength'. :)

[MidwestMomma]

125. Don't try to take away the honor of Kucinich's fight against the war

I remember we all admired him for it during the march to war. He fought the valiant fight and lost. But he still fought it and some people on this board still admire him for it. We haven't forgotten his fight against Bush and the powers that be and you shouldn't belittle his effort.

But peace....it's hard to maintain your integrity in the battle for the White House. That's why I admire Dennis Kucinich!

[Freddie Stubbs]

141. He certainly fought

But his lack of success in that fight draws into question his effectiveness. It is one thing to talk a good game, but it is another thing to actually get things done.

[babzilla]

151. he got a lot done freddie

I believe it was 133 representatives voting against with Kucinich and the CBC taking the lead.

Here is a link to the vote in the house:

http://www.capwiz.com/votenowar/issues/votes/?votenum=455&chamber=H&congress=1072&tally=1

[Freddie Stubbs]

154. This would not have passed without the support of some Democrats

http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.asp?year=2002&rollnumber=455

Yet 81 Democrats voted for it. The total vote, 296-133, wasn't even close.

[babzilla]

163. yea ,well some democrats didn't count for shit

and some did. Those that supported it were wrong.

Kucinich was one of those that didn't support it, therefore he is righteous.

[Freddie Stubbs]

166. Perhaps righteous, but not very effective

We need someone who can get things done, not just blow a lot of hot air.

[Mairead]

226. 'Blow a lot of hot air' is the sum and substance of what Dean's done!

So I wouldn't aspire to be critical of Kucinich, if I were you.

[Freddie Stubbs]

255. He has a record of accomplishment as Governor of Vt -- That's not hot air

Kucinich's record consists of 'speaking out' and fingting for' issues. Buts his record lacks any real accomplishments.

[redqueen]

260. Record - losing votes to another party

His record consists of giving speeches to the Cato folks, telling them how much he luuuuurves republican fiscal policy.

His record consists of losing votes with each and every passing election, whether or not gay 'civil unions' was on the agenda.

His record consists of fighting against Democratic legislators, and siding with Republican legislators.

Yeah, he can get a lot done alright -- for republicans!

:eyes:

[Freddie Stubbs]

286. Dean has never lost an election. I'm pretty sure Kucinich has

;-)

[redqueen]

290. Dean lost votes with every election

With each and every election he had to be involved in (and no, he never ousted an incumbent, ever), he lost votes to the "progressive party". Each and every time, he won by slimmer and slimmer margins.

And there are no excuses. He had no vast corporate empire fighting against him. On the contrary, he was very cozy with corporate entities during his reign. He had no massive funding from banks and their friends in the media running against him. Nope, he lost those voters himself. Not because he kept campaign promises, either. He did it by fighting against Democrats and siding with Republicans.

Progressive Democrats were so sick of the way he ran things, that with each and every election Dean was the Dem choice on, they decided that they'd rather defect to a third party and lose than vote for the Democrat on the ticket.

I guess you want to see that done on a national level again (Clinton did a good job of alienating voters as well).

[Freddie Stubbs]

296. Dean recieved more votes than his opponent every time--Kucinich didn't

Sure he works with the other party. So did Clinton. It is hard to get things done when you refuse to work with the other party. Kucinich doens't have to worry about that, becasue he just gives a lot of speeches and pretends like he is getting things done.

[redqueen]

299. Yes, he did. But he lost votes every time.

Do you not get that? That there are a lot of Democrats that will vote for the Democrat no matter what? And that Dean manages to drive them away?

And I didn't say he 'worked with' republicans. I said he 'sided with' them. Big difference.

Here's an example:

Working with republicans:
Bush and Clinton screwing us with NAFTA

Siding with republicans:
Saying medicare benefits should be cut (or using the euphemism "limiting growth" so you don't have to say the words 'cut' or 'benefit')

Working with republicans:
Getting a few tax cuts for average Americans included in bills that republicans only wanted to aim at fatcats.

Siding with republicans:
Having republicans in your legislature that 'have no problems' with you, but having your fellow Democrats in the leg. barely able to stand you.

Oh yeah, and trying to overturn even those meager tax cuts other Democrats worked hard for, so that you make it easier for your Republican opponent to win.

[Freddie Stubbs]

306. Lost votes = keeps getting reelected Sounds good to me!

I suppose that since Dean has managed to piss off so many VT Democrats that he will do poorly in that state's primary.

[redqueen]

310. Who knows?

He might... he might not.

The important thing is what he'll do to the party nationally.

One might reasonably expect it would be the same as he did in VT.

You seem happy to accept that. Good for you.

[Mairead]

262. Check your facts--you've been called on this one over and over again

I think the mods should do something about it, because it's now clearly NOT a mistake on your part if it ever was.

Dennis Kucinich saved the publicly-owned electric company in Cleveland at the cost of a giant chunk out of his career. That rock-solid, self-sacrificing integrity --something Dean has never displayed-- has been worth some $300M to Clevelanders, and the total continues to rise.

[Freddie Stubbs]

265. He made Cleveland the laughingstock of the nation

And the voters of Clevelend showed their displeasure with him by tossing him out of office and replacing him with a Republican.

[revcarol]

266. So now they realize the MILLIONS of $$ he saved consumers,

and they HONOR HIM. And FirstEnergy is still up to its old tricks: the company that started the recent blackout.

Freddie, the Kucinich campaign really ought to hire you. You are devastating at proving our points: that DK really is the honest man for the ordinary person, that he will do what is right for us even when it means personal sacrifice. Thank you for ponting out DK's strengths.

[redqueen]

270. That's funny - you act like you haven't been told already

I guess you somehow manage to forget it immediately, each time you're told:

- that Kucinich was elected on a promise to save MUNY light from privatization

- that it was the four members of the board of BOTH the bank AND the private corporation trying to buy MUNY light that tried to blackmail Kucinich into breaking his promise to the voters

- that despite his knowing that this could be political suicide -- that by doing what was RIGHT by the PEOPLE he would probably lose his job and not be able to continue doing what he loved in life -- despite all this he STILL did the right thing

- that after years of savings, the people of Cleveland honored him with the recognition of the debt of gratitude they owed him

- that after this recognition, they elected him not to city council, or as mayor (for he had done these jobs well already), but to state legislature

- that after his service to citizens in the state legislature, the people he served elected him to even higher office

- that a display of integrity and courage this clear is almost impossible to find, anywhere in politics (go ahead, please find another occurrence of a public servant sacrificing their own interests for the public good -- I'd like to see how many you can find.


Additionally, what I find ironic is that the people of this country are literally starving for this kind of honesty, forthrightness, and integrity.

Thank God corporo-whore media has good, pablem-lovin' folks around to keep the lies going. We might actually have to adapt to real changes in our country if the public found out about the Kooch.

[Desertrose]

272. freddie freddie freddie...

are you having fun yet?

Its like you actually enjoy repeating lies that you have been repeatedly "enlightened" on...
almost pathetically funny....almost...

hey revcarol & redqueen....I know how to make freddie disappear and you know what they say about it takes two to play...
bwa ha ha haaaa
:evilgrin:

Peace
DR

[Freddie Stubbs]

284. What lies?

Kucinich's record in Congress is one of a lot of talk, but not a lot of accomplishment.

[redqueen]

292. "Kucinich bankrupted cleveland!" <-- that lie

:eyes:

I wonder... is willful ignorance painful?

[Freddie Stubbs]

301. He put the city in recievership--big difference

Regardless of his record as mayor, he has not accomplished anything worthwhile as a memeber of Congress. He may have tried, but he hasn't been terribly effective. How many endorsements has Kucinich recieved from his colleages in the House? Compare that with the number of endorsements that Dean has recieved from those poeple. These people know Dean from working with him, yet they are endorsing Dean.

[redqueen]

303. No, he didn't, the bank did.

And endorsements from people who have been playing the power game, for a person who has a proven track record as a republican-loving centrist... these are meaningless to me. Meaningless endorsements from people wanting to curry favor don't impress me. Go figure.

You claim he hasn't accomplished anything worthwhile. I pointed out already that this can be blamed on the last compromising, lying centrist we elected. Due to his amazing coattails, we're now in minority status in both houses of congress. Dean will do more of the same. If it weren't for the idiotic "us too just not as much" DLC crap, Kucinich may have been able to accomplish something. As it is, he had to work under the leadership of people like Dean. God help us all.

[Freddie Stubbs]

313. Some of those endorsements have have come from progressives

Jesse Jackson, Jr. and Hilda Solis, both oficers of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, have endorsed Dean. Other members of the caucus, such as John Conyers, have also endorsed Dean. I suppose they aren't real Democrats.

[redqueen]

323. Oh stop already with the strawmen

I never said they weren't 'real democrats'. I said they were currying favor. And I believe it. For a progressive liberal democrat to support Dean, you know something else has to be involved.

[Freddie Stubbs]

327. Something else is involved -- they want a candidate that can win

Why aren't they trying to curry favor from Kucinich? Perhaps they don't have much confidence in him.

[redqueen]

332. Exactly

Just as a lot of them had to be talked into standing up against Bush's war (by Kucinich), they now would have to be talked into voting their conscience, rather than voting for the one who can 'help them out' down the line.

MUCH of politics is gamesmanship and currying favor and getting cronies on your side.

That's the big draw for Kucitizens. We're sick of it. He doesn't play that game, and we recognize it and love him for it.

Yes, you're right, just as many, many Americans have been convinced that winning is more important than what you win; so too our leaders have been corrupted.

Hey, but look where it's gotten us so far! Why should we complain, right?! This is the best country on earth!

[Freddie Stubbs]

339. I agree with you

This is the best country on earth.

[Mairead]

274. Check your facts.

He was defeated by a massive campaign mounted by the corporatocracy. They lost hundreds of millions in profit because of his integrity and they made him pay for it.

The 'laughingstock' refers to the Cuyuhoga river fire that occurred while he was still at school.

I really think the mods have an obligation here.

[Freddie Stubbs]

283. The voters spoke

The campaign that spends the most money doesn't always win. If you think that is the case, just ask Al Checchi.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/keyraces98/stories/ca060398.htm

[redqueen]

293. What the heck are you talking about?

Spends the most money? So you mean Dean, right? :eyes:

Yeah, the voters spoke -- they elected him on a promise to save MUNY light.

Thank God Americans aren't gullible... thank God they don't believe propoganda, right? Or else you might have to wonder if collusion between the bank, private interests, and the local media might have something to do with the voters tossing Kucinich, who had done the right thing, done what they asked him to, and by doing so, saved them over a hundred million dollars, out of office.

:eyes:

Thankfully, all one has to do is review the circumstances following the voters' decision to realize how close you come to just flat-out LYING. They welcomed him back, and gave him promotion after promotion. :D

[Freddie Stubbs]

315. I guess the voters were too stupid to see the truth

when they threw Kucinich out of office.

[redqueen]

326. You can call them stupid if you want

I'll continue to believe they're just more of the many fooled by the media.

It's not a new phenomenon, you know. The media lying to people... that whole 'manufactured consent' thing.

They did it before, and they'll do it again. As a matter of fact, they're doing it right now, even!

Hey look, Dean's on the cover of the Sunday Times! He's the chosen one, let's just ignore his record and support a winner!!!! God knows the primaries aren't about voting your conscience or anything silly like that! Just get behind the leader, right Gore?

;)

[Freddie Stubbs]

334. It's about getting behind someone who can beat Bush

Kucinich is strugling to get past Al Sharpton. If he can't beat Sharpton, he isn't going to be much of a match for Bush.

[redqueen]

337. Well, I'd put that differently

I'd say that would be more accurately phrased as follows:

"It's about getting behind who the media tells us to, because they tell us they and they alone can beat Bush."

See, many people just refuse to believe that the media's treatment of Dean has anything to do with his standing. Many others (myself included) refuse to believe Dean would be where he is today without a helpful push from the media at a critical time.

It's one thing to analyze the primaries and make assertions about Kucinich vs. Sharpton.

It's quite another to fool yourself into thinking that between two candidates, during a general election, that Bush will be able to hide from the laser that is Kucinich's vision.

It is quite impossible to imagine that, despite it's cravenness, the media will be able to somehow ignore Kucinich's message. They can bury him now pretty easily. Nobody's really paying that much attention, and there are 9 candidates to talk about.

The GE is much different.

They cannot bury Kucinich in the GE.

While they can try to distort his message, we Kucitizens know that the only way to win is to spread the word ourselves. Kucinich getting the nomination would be the best thing to happen to this country since FDR. :D

[Freddie Stubbs]

342. Winning campaigns don't need to make excuses

If only the media would pay attention to Dennis! Then he would have all of the success that Dean is having. If Kucinich had don the things that Dean had (building a broad based coalition of supporters, raising a ton of money) he would be the one who had gotten all of the coverage.

[blm]

298. Dean sold Vermont Yankee to BFEE loyalists the Koch brothers.

Dean the deregulator acted the exact OPPOSITE of Kucinich whoconfronted the deregulators and privatizers and stuck BY the people of Cleveland.

Dean has his records dealing with the Koch brothers under seal so Dem primary voters will never see the depth of his procorporate whoredom for BFEE loyalists.

[Freddie Stubbs]

320. It's no secret that he sold the electric company

How do you know about it if it is sealed? This issue doesn't seem to have hurt Dean's candidacy.

[redqueen]

329. How could it?

Who knows about it, outside of DU members who care enough to read blm's and others' posts about it?

You know darn well that hasn't been publicized in the mainstream media.

Gee, why is that?

Why is it that the media is giving Dean the kid-glove treatment - chastising him for the 'frivolous' issues (draft, infighting), and letting him slide on the meatier ones (close ties to big energy, rhetoric conflicting with record in VT)? Hmmmmmm... makes one think, doesn't it? Oh wait, I guess for most people, it really doesn't.

Nevermind.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

331. And then he was promoted to the senate - what a horrible fate....

n/t

[TorchTheWitch]

232. ha!

But his lack of success in that fight draws into question his effectiveness. It is one thing to talk a good game, but it is another thing to actually get things done.

Remember you said that if by some miracle Dean is elected president and when he has to go up against a GOP filled House and Senate. :eyes:

[Freddie Stubbs]

257. That is the likely fate of any Democrat who wins

But Dean has started to help raise money for House candidates. when will Kucinich do this?

[redqueen]

261. Oh pish posh, TTW, he'll side with the Rethug congress!

Remember, judge him on his record, not his hot air... I mean 'rhetoric'.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

319. And what has Dean done? Look at his record - it's nothing to be proud of

unlike that of Kucinich.

[Clark Can WIN]

165. Ohhhh.......... that's helpful..................

alienate some more voters on behalf of Dean.

[Freddie Stubbs]

168. Sometimes the truth hurts

And the truth about Kucinich is a lot of talk but not a lot of accomplishments.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

172. Yes it does, as in Dean will lie to win, even against fellow dems.

That's not what I want in a candidate.

TWL

[babzilla]

178. click on Freddies sigline

and you might get a better picture of where he is coming from.

I don't think he is being very "helpful".

[ThirdWheelLegend]

187. lol thanks

I get to click on the little sleeping guy icon by his name now!

Just read some of that and it was enough.

;-)


TWL

[babzilla]

195. you are welcome

now you owe me a non-dean bash post.

To be collected when you feel that it is appropriate to do so. ;-)

[ThirdWheelLegend]

197. Dean was my first choice before Kucinich enterered the race.

Then Dean became my second choice for then.

Dean is better than Bush!


Is that good? :)

TWL

[babzilla]

206. love it

and accepted in good faith my brother. :)

[babzilla]

175. that vote was a huge accomplishment

to all of us who begged our representatives to vote against the IWR.

He delivered the vote that would accomplish what I was talking about. What is the problem Freddie?

[Freddie Stubbs]

288. Losing by a lopsided margin isn't a very impressive accomplishment

but if you think that it is, then you will probably consider the Kucinich's lask of success in the primaries a 'huge accomplishment.'

[redqueen]

291. Back up a bit there, time traveler

How about you wait until the primaries are at least well under way before declaring whether or not someone has shown any success in them?

Is that too much to ask?

Expecting one to remember the facts surrounding the MUNY light incident is obviously too much, as evidenced by the lies being repeated over and over and over ad nauseam... but I hope this isn't too much to expect.

[babzilla]

86. you also forgot to add the real point of Kucinich's speech

which was being reported on in this article.

Kucinich: Terror alert is scare tactic

Bush trying to instill fear, he says

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/recent2003/122703%5Fkucinich%5F2003.shtml

Why are you focusing on Dean instead of the Patriot Act and the Homeland Security Agency, which were the issues that Kucinich was actually speaking about?

[BootinUp]

2. This is why Dean needs more money than Bush

and the other candidates. Its the only way to win a smear war.

[WiseMen]

41. Dean Anti-War Just a Gimmick. Kucinich and Kerry Both More Anti-War

And Sharpton, And Braun.

Kerry's IWR vote was a tough call which I personally question but understand. Overall, though, Kerry was very critical of Bush's war rumblings throughout. As far I can see Dean took up the anti-war flag when it was political convenient as part of his campaign strategy.
Here are some links to Kerry's record of opposition to Bush on the War:

John Kerry's Statement on Iraq Before the War
TEXT FROM THE SPEECH JOHN KERRY MADE ON THE SENATE FLOOR
October 9, 2002
…..

Let me be clear, the vote I will give to the President is for one reason and one reason only: To disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, if we cannot accomplish that objective through new, tough weapons inspections in joint concert with our allies.

In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days--to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out.

. . . . . . . . .

If we do wind up going to war with Iraq, it is imperative that we do so with others in the international community, unless there is a showing of a grave, imminent--and I emphasize "imminent"--threat to this country which requires the President to respond in a way that protects our immediate national security needs.

http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/kerry-iraq.html

After the IWR vote, During U.N. Inspections
Senator John Kerry
Remarks Georgetown University
Thursday 23 January 2003
"Mr. President, Do Not Rush To War"

………

And, while American security must never be ceded to any institution or to another institution's decision, I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition.

Mr. President, do not rush to war!

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/012503A.kerry.no.rush.htm


After the war started:

April 4, 2003
''What we need now is not just a regime change in Saddam Hussein and Iraq, but we need a regime change in the United States,'' Kerry said in a speech at the Peterborough Town Library.

http://www.buzzflash.com/editorial/03/04/04.html

April 7, 2003
(AP) Presidential candidate John Kerry said Monday that democracy affords rival Democrats the right to criticize President Bush even with the nation at war.

The Massachusetts senator has come under a withering attack from Republicans for suggesting that the United States, like Iraq, needs a regime change. Traveling through Iowa, Kerry rejected what he called "phony arguments" from the GOP that political candidates should mute their criticism of the commander in chief.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/04/politics/main547730.shtml

Bush sidestepped process on war in Iraq, Kerry says


By Amy Fagan
THE WASHINGTON TIMES (July, 22, 2003)


Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. John Kerry yesterday said President Bush "circumvented" the process laid out in the congressional resolution authorizing action against Iraq, which Mr. Kerry supported in the Senate last year.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030721-103628-1890r.htm

[mouse7]

174. Kerry anti-war? BWA-HA-HA-HA!

Pull up all the double-talk quotes you like, Kerry VOTED in support of allowing Dumbya the means to conduct an invasion of Iraq.

[zulchzulu]

201. Oh little misinformed you

Kerry fought in Nam, scored medals and came back and helped end the war. He was against the first Gulf war (unlike Dean) and was for the UN to do its job in this recent war...

I may as well type "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah" since you probably don't care anyway...

[mouse7]

210. Kerry voted FOR the IWR

Kerry voted Yes to war.

Anything else is spin.

[maddezmom]

3. might want to edit the exclamation points so it doesn't get locked.

:)

[Desertrose]

8. Yeah, just sent corporate whore a PM about that

ain't that the truth...all those evil little !!!!'s and ????'s
They will turn us against each other yet!
(Oh wait...I think its too late)

then they will turn our brains to sponges!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:evilgrin:
DR

[maddezmom]

14. it was just a suggestion

I don't want it to get locked. BTW just sent DK a donation, so I'm on your side. :)

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

91. heh...that's what I say.

DR always has a calm demeanor, while I tend to be the hothead.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Desertrose]

183. hey maddezmom..no prob :)

I was just on a roll about the pickiness of locking a thread for too much punctuation....I was glad you mentioned it actually. My :grr: wasn't directed at you even remotely!

And you guys saying I have a cool head...wow! Maybe for an Aries I do...but I do *ahem* ...talk... a lot to some posts before my fingers hit the keys if you know what I mean

It is frustrating tho, knowing your guy is the real deal and having everyone act like he's not even there...lemme tell ya :grr:

anyhow :hi: maddezmom thanks for the DK donation :loveya:

:hug: & peace
DR

:grouphug: diamondsoul,blm, no name no slogan

[maddezmom]

253. .....

:-)

[rucky]

4. so the "major candidate" qualifier went out the window

writing them. maybe they'll listen to a contributor

[worldgonekrazy]

305. Yeah I wrote too

I'm not easy with the misrepresentation. Kucinich opposed the war from the start and is the only one to have actually voted against it. Not only that, but he led a valiant effort in the House to oppose it (despite what some apparently think). For Dean to dismiss him out of hand is not right.

[SahaleArm]

5. Dean to DNC: All the other candidates are hurting me...

Make them stop so I don't have to lie :cry:

[diamondsoul]

6. Is THIS what they mean when they whine

about Party Loyalty?!

I'm done, Dean just blew himself off my radar completely. I'll vote for Lieberman first, at least he's honest.

[blm]

11. He's behind Lieberman for me, too.

I dread having to spend 2004 making excuses for someone I KNOW is a gawddam liar.

Dean was FOR a resolution to allow Bush the final determination for use of force. Dennis was the ONLY one speaking out against that even from the beginning.

[XanaDUer]

12. Right

and Carol MB and Sharpton, too, right?I mean, they too were against the invasion of Iraq.

EDIT:For clarity

[blm]

25. They weren't Dems in office at the time of the IWR.

Dean was governor of Vermont still when the resolution was being offered, and Dennis was in the house and fighting against ANY resolution.

I was basing it on Dems who were in any official position at the time.

[diamondsoul]

47. The way things are going right now

Those three + Kerry will be the last ones left on my list of acceptable candidates. Please go right ahead and ask me why Kerry.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

55. I'll venture a guess on why Kerry deserves your support

because, well....he DESERVES IT!

Who has been fighting for liberal ideals his whole G*DAMNED career?- John F. Kerry!
and it is a long and distinguished career at that! 35 years if you include his military serivce.
It's as simple as that for me. He is a proven liberal champion.

[diamondsoul]

124. Exactly. There are a couple of things about him

or actually that he's said and done that I don't agree with. Yes IWR was one of them, but give his long history of doing the right thing, one or two votes are mitigated in my view.

On top of that, I'd be one HELL of a hypocrite to slam Kerry for two votes and accept Kucinich's 6 or so years of voting PL without complaint!

[bearfartinthewoods]

248. the thing that bugs me the most is that they hold up kerry's IRW vote

ONE move that in the long run would't have changed a thing, as a deal breaker, yet swallow what dean is pumping out daily with a "so what".

as we learn more about dean's 'mini me' immataion of bushco, they just squeeze their eyes closed and jam their fingers further into their ears and keep pushing us closer and closer to the cliff.

and they say there is nothing in the koolaid...

[aldian159]

149. Amen for that

Same reasons I work for the junior Senator from Mass.

[mouse7]

177. Kerry's sense of being entitled to nomination affected supporters

Kerry deserves the nomination? Not hardly. Kerry can't run a Presidential Campaign. If he fails that test of leadership, he sure can't claim he deserves nomination.

[JohnKleeb]

200. Hes a fine man, I am sure I am not the only one in my camp to believe this

I wish him well, I would love nothing more well other than DK really getting on fire, sorry for the bias :) but to see Kerry catch on. I in particular on Kerry appreciate his contributions to the environment, a 96% from the LCV is no small feat and he stands up for veterans as well. He is a good guy. My second choice as it stands.

[bearfartinthewoods]

249. 96% from the LCV is outstanding which is why i could put my heart

into supporting Kerry.

[MuseRider]

80. Me too

he has been last on my list for quite some time. At least I KNOW what Lieberman stands for and that is worlds better than having to guess each and every day which way the wind is blowing.

[bearfartinthewoods]

251. each and every day ??hah! with dean, we'll be waiting for hourly updates

[Clark Can WIN]

169. And also for me, I started out on "team dean" but now I'd rather just

write in my dad. Dean has a snowflakes chance on a extra hot day in hell in my state. May as well.

[burrowowl]

7. I remember Kucinich's Peace Panels

on C-Span long before Dean made a peep.
I'm getting angry that Dean the Libertarian and Lieberman the Republican are stooping so low.

[diamondsoul]

36. "I'm getting angry "

Darlin', I'm f*cking LIVID! I'm so pissed I'm shaking from it. I have tried, and tried and tried even harder to find something to respect in Howard Dean. I'm tired of it. No more ABB, no more being generous or forgiving. Howard Dean just ignored my candidate's record while he keeps his hidden. He's lied so many times I doubt even HE knows the truth anymore, and I WILL NOT elect another LIAR to my Nation's Oval Office!

[in_cog_ni_to]

69. Sooner or later,

HOPEFULLY sooner, this kind of shit is going to take Howard down to where he belongs. He's proven himself to be a liar, a whiner, an angry screamer and a win at all cost candidate. When you tell lies, it's very difficult to remember what you said. He will screw up big time and he'll be finished. I just hope it's not after he gets the nomination...should he win. It doesn't look like this lack of character matters much to his supporters, so I would still expect a fight for a while until he inserts BOTH feet in his mouth. He knows damn well that Kucinich has always been against the war. What a slimey thing to do. :grr:

[KittyWampus]

83. Dean's Osama Statement

Followed by his Osama "Do-Over" Statement was pretty much BOTH feet.

I honestly don't think the money that his hard core supporters are throwing at him can help anymore.

It might buy Dean some time though...

[worldgonekrazy]

307. Yeah how stupid to support the Rule of Law

Jeez I sure don't want that guy to be my president. I would much rather have a guy that would just execute anybody we call a terrorist without even so much as an illusion of a fair trial. Principles are only good as long as they are convenient, and the "innocent until proven guilty" thing has clearly outlived its usefulness.

[CoffeePlease2004]

346. I agree with you 110%!

I am a Clark supporter. But I have to say that if I had my way, Kucinich would be President. I think he has the best platform. I back Clark because he the next best thing and has a shot at beating Bush.

What Dean has done and said is absolutely an outrage and a disgrace. If Clark gets knocked out of the race, I will vote for who ever is the second strongest under after Dean. If the election is between Bush and Dean, I will go into the booth drunk. That way I will not remember who I voted for because I could not live with myself either knowing I backed Bush or Dean for President. If I go in sober I will most likely write somebody in or vote Green.

Mike

[NewYorkerfromMass]

9. Hey I'll donate a boatload of cash to Kucinich for this alone

Dean really needs some attitude adjustment.

[Nadienne]

278. Thank you

I know. Dean's value is inflated.

[mikehiggins]

10. How hard is it to tell the truth about the first anti-war candidate?

Actually, I'm surprised any of you guys are surprised by what is going on. Leave it to us old guys to clue you in.

Dean is an old fashioned ward-heeling professional pol who's put on a new suit and is acting out the role of a liberal, anti-war, populist. Nothing in his record supports anything else.

He's surrounded himself with the kind of brainiacs who will swear he is the second coming until a cushy job opens up with some Beltway lobbying firm, or maybe follow Stepanopolis onto ABC.

You expect something new and exciting? ROTFLOL

Pay no attention to the man behind the green curtain.

[oasis]

138. "green curtain"???Hmmm.

:think:

[Clark Can WIN]

173. Shit Mike,,,,,,,,,,,,,

you're not supposed to speak plain obvious truth here.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

181. well put mike

eom

TWL

[babzilla]

189. yeah, leave it to you old guys mike, to clue us in

except for one thing, your story sounds more like the Clark campaign than the Dean campaign.

He's surrounded himself with the kind of brainiacs who will swear he is the second coming until a cushy job opens up with some Beltway lobbying firm, or maybe follow Stepanopolis onto ABC.

Beltway lobbying? Wasn't Clark the one working for defense contracters in between his military gig and his running for public office gig?

Stepanopolis on ABC you say? Isn't that the guy who worked for the guy that put up your guy?

"Dean is an old fashioned ward-heeling professional pol who's put on a new suit and is acting out the role of a liberal, anti-war, populist. Nothing in his record supports anything else."

Well, if you say so old guy mike, I'm sure that is what you believe because that's what suits ya old guy mike. Its a good thing you've got your truth huh?

[no name no slogan]

275. Thanks for saying this again

I've been saying this myself for a long time, too. Dean is no "outsider" as he claims. Hell, he was the DLC's poster boy until he decided to run for president. He led the Democratic governor's association in 2002, and was supposed to be in charge of electing more Democratic governors that year. Apparently it didn't turn out too well, huh?

If nothing, Dean is a very savvy campaigner. However, running a presidential campaign and running the country are two very different things. Convincing 500,000 people to sign up on your website is not the same as diminishing corporate control of our lives, providing universal health COVERAGE (not just insurance) for ALL, and rebuilding our country.

[arewethereyet]

13. I think Trippi is not getting enough sleep

the wheels are really coming off of late.

And right on time !

Go Edwards !

[Clark Can WIN]

176. Edwards is a good man

i like him VERY much.

[exclark4dean]

15. You have a LINK ?

[Karmadillo]

24. See post #22 for link

n/t

[LWolf]

16. Again?

How about a letter writing campaign to the local newspapers there; letters to the editor protesting the flyer?

[Melinda]

17. A search of the Concord Monitor turns up empty

http://www.cmonitor.com/query.idq?CiRestriction=howard+and+dean&CiMaxRecordsPerPage=25&CiScope=%2Fstories%2F&TemplateName=query&CiMaxRecordsInResultSet=200&CiSort=write%5Bd%5D&HTMLQueryForm=query.htm

As does a search of Howard Dean +brochure:

http://www.cmonitor.com/query.idq?CiRestriction=Howard+and+dean+and+%2Bbrochure*&CiMaxRecordsPerPage=25&CiScope=%2Fstories%2F&TemplateName=query&CiMaxRecordsInResultSet=200&CiSort=write%5Bd%5D&HTMLQueryForm=query.htm

Now I can telephone the monitor tomorrow and ask them to confirm what you're stating here, or you can provide proof. Can you? Will you?

[exclark4dean]

20. Howard Dean + Iraq yields nothing either - Proof please

[5thGenDemocrat]

29. I've got one of those fliers sitting right in front of me

You want to take my word for it or do you want me to quote it to you or something?
John
The front of this flier also says: "Dean for America -- candidate for president". Not DEMOCRATIC candidate for president, mind you -- just candidate for president.
It also says "Health Care for All -- How Dean Delivered." Inside, the text actually says that Dean extended health care to 96% of Vermont's children and extended prescription drug benefits to every senior in financial need. Admirable, yes -- but hardly health care for all (or wouldn't you agree?).

[diamondsoul]

43. Got a scanner? Dude, PLEASE scan that sucker! n/t

[5thGenDemocrat]

50. No scanner -- this came in the mail last week

But contact www.deanforamerica.com or phone 866-Dean-4-Us for your own copy. Or mail your request to Dean for America, 124 W. Allegan Street, Suite 1120, Lansing, MI 48933.
John
Howard Dean wants to hear from all the Kucinich supporters, I am sure. This IS the big-tent party, after all.

[revcarol]

71. Look at the back of the brochure.

It should SAY if it is part of the official literature or by some other group.BTW, what's the official name of Dean's campaign?

This is just another example of Dean lying. I got taken in by Dean being "anti-war" when he wasn't and sent him several contributions. If I ask, can I get my money back?

[5thGenDemocrat]

75. You're right, revcarol

Says "Paid for by Dean for America" right under the return address.
John
Call 866-Dean-4-Us to ask about refunds. Maybe you'd better do it soon.

[revcarol]

90. So it's official.

Put out by his own campaign.

How's he gonna weasel outta this one? Maybe the teflon has spread.

[blm]

92. That teflon was GIVEN to Dean by the corporate media.

Only fools would think that teflon will last. Dean's lies will be used to BURY the whole Dem party in 2004.

[adadem]

142. I'm with you revcarol

I want my money back, too. We were really taken in back then.

[Clark Can WIN]

180. Thank God I was broke busted

when I went through my deanlusions.

[blm]

77. Dean inherited 91% coverage when he took over

and then the CHIPS legislation drafted by Kennedy and Kerry helped EVERY state increase its coverage for children. Nice of Dean to acknowledge what the federal law did for his state.

[Karmadillo]

22. Here's proof.

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/front2003/122703%5Fkucinich%5F2003.shtml

<edit>

Kucinich was also critical of former Vermont governor Howard Dean for presenting himself as the only anti-war candidate. Dean recently mailed brochures to homes in New Hampshire with a headline stating that Dean is the only candidate who "opposed the war from the start."

"Maybe," Kucinich said of the brochures, "Dr. Dean thinks he's already won the election so he can say anything he wants. But before the votes are in, I have a question: What's up, doc?"

(Ed Pilolla can be reached at 528-2027 or by e-mail at [email protected].)

Saturday, December 27, 2003

[LWolf]

30. Interesting article.

"What's up, doc?"

LOL

Thankfully, the doc hasn't won the election, and we can all ask him what's up...what's up with this lie?

[stickdog]

37. Proof of what? Proof that DK said something that was printed?

[Karmadillo]

53. It would appear to be the reporter's characterization of the content

of the brochure, not DK's.

"Proof", by the way, refers to post #17's request for "proof" an article making such a claim exists. The article, obviously, does exists.

[Clark Can WIN]

184. Stickdog, if/after this is hard and common knowledge

how do you defend Dean saying this?

...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................?

[mistertrickster]

49. WAIT A MINUTE . . . This article just says that Kuchinich said that

the Dean headline claims that he (Dean) was the only candidate against the war from the start.

Exsqueeze me, but I think I'd like to see the actual brochure and not his opponent's claim of what the brochure said.

At any rate, it's true that he is the only VIABLE candidate who was against the war from the beginning.

*****

Also, I have a hard time understanding how some of you say "I'll never vote for Dean" when we have SATAN in the White House. Perhaps Dean exaggerates, perhaps he even lies on occasion, at least he doesn't lie constantly like the son of a bitch who is squatting in America's house right now.

Get a grip . . . this is important, it's not about YOU and your hurt feelings, it's about our country.

[5thGenDemocrat]

Again, I have the brochure right in front of me

Kucinich isn't the one spinning here -- the headline says exactly that. I'll be happy to quote verbatim from the brochure if you have any specific questions.
John
Got nothing better to do and I'll be here all night.

[Karmadillo]

74. Does the brochure appear to be something approved by the

campaign or something direct from the home printer sent out unofficially by a local supporter(s)?

Thanks.

[5thGenDemocrat]

79. Nope

Like I say to revcarol above, this says "Paid for by Dean for America."
John
It's on shiny stock, four-color printing, very nicely done. It's way professional.

[Karmadillo]

81. Thanks. I didn't think DK would have mentioned it if it wasn't official.

Sorry I missed your reply to revcarol, by the way.

[MuseRider]

88. I have a grip

my feelings are not hurt but one more liar in the white house is not something I will ever vote for. Now if you would like to pat me on the head and tell me to run along that is fine but I would thank you to stop characterizing a group of people upset because of someone lies as needing a grip.

Edit spelling I was angry

[bearfartinthewoods]

252. suggestion for dean campaign song

meet the new boss...same as the old boss

no...wait a minute, the name of the song is 'we won't be fooled again" so that won't work for the dean team.

i know...i know..."lie to me...i promise i'll believe" by sheryl crow

perfect!!

[no name no slogan]

112. "Lies consistently"

HELL YES I know it's about "our country". But how can you justify replacing "satan" (as you call him) with somebody who lies nearly as often as he does?

That's the key. Why are a five lies about major issues "acceptable", but, say, six lies means it's wrong?

Dean is promoting himself as "honest", a "straight talker", when the facts are that he changes his positions whenever Trippi and the "focus groups" tell him to, or it's politically expedient to do so, and then claiming that was his original stance all along.

That's not only lying, it's dishonest, and goes against everything he has presented himself as representing.

==============

If we are going to have a liar in the White House, I'd rather have the liar I KNOW is a liar than the one who promises that he's not, and then turns around and double-crosses us. We already got that from Clinton-- TWICE -- and I see no need to repeat the same mistake twice in as many decades.

If Dean gets the nomination (which is not a done deal by a long way) and somehow wins the GE, be prepared to be disappointed for these reasons:

* The "drug war" will not stop, or even decrease-- and may even increase. Dean DOES NOT oppose it-- he even removed drug war terminology from his site last summer.

* "Welfare Reform" will continue along, and more poor families will become increasingly dependent on already-stretched charities to take care of them, since "balancing the budget" is priority #1. Look for more families and small children living on the streets, in their cars, or in shelters.

* Our schools and public infrastructure might get a bone thrown to them on occassion, but not very often, as Dean has committed to maintaining the same bloated Pentagon budget as his predecessor, and has called it "hands off" for budget purposes. If he won't cut the Pentagon and he promises to balance the budget within five years, guess where the cuts will come from? Yup, you guessed it, SOCIAL PROGRAMS. "We sure can't afford to fund schools if we can only blow up the world 1,000 times over", after all.

* 10+ million Americans will remain UNINSURED, and another 30+ million will be underinsured with Dean's "universal healthcare" plan. Apparently "universal" in Vermontese doesn't mean the same thing it means in English.

* Rural America will continue to decline, as Dean has no plans to reign in the power of agribusiness or the large corporations (like WalMart) that are killing small-town economies.

* The Social Security retirement age will still be 67, as passed by BushCo, since Dean has NOT committed to lowering it to 65.

* The whore mass-media will continue to consolidate, as Dean does not oppose the current wave of mergers. As a matter of fact, major execs of (AOL) Time Warner have made maximun contributions to his campaign....best of luck trying to get media reform from him!

* The US will STILL be in Iraq in 2008, with a greater number of troops, and still greater casualties, and with no end in sight...

* The USA PATRIOT act will still be in force, and millions of Americans will continually be denied their constitutional rights, because Dean has stated that he WOULD NOT repeal it-- only the parts he finds "offending".

=============

Does that sound like "your country"? Would you really be willing to settle for the nightmare I just outlined when we actually have a chance to enact REAL CHANGE in this country for the first time in nearly 70 years?

[aldian159]

152. Don't judge viability until a vote is cast.

All are viable, that's what's great about the system.

[Clark Can WIN]

190. Amen baby.............

all our guys are in it.

Football fans, it's like the team that got to the the big game with hot plays and a great coach. But DAMN. Once they get there the quarterback keeps fumbling the ball and tripping over his own feet, or tounge..............

It's a slow realization, but sooner or later, hopefully before the game is over........ the team, the coaches, the fans, everybody knows the annointed QB has been weak all along. He's not up for the big game. Time to look for the strongest backup.

[Mairead]

230. " it's not about YOU and your hurt feelings, it's about our country"

No, it's not about the country. If it were, then people like you would be supporting the demonstrably best candidate for the nation: Dennis Kucinich. Even the Media Inc reporters who've admitted they're doing their damnedest to smother Dennis also admit he's the 900 lb gorilla on the issues.

Play it straight. You'll feel better afterwards.

[Melinda]

56. Thanks, Karmadillo

I googled the same criteria and came up with links to 12/9 and a statement by Kucinich that Dean had distributed brochures in Iowa, but could find nothing anywhere about NH. I appreciate your finding and providing that link.

*edited to add:

12/9/03: Presidential Candidate Dennis Kucinich today released the following statement:

"Al Gore's endorsement of Howard Dean is further evidence that the only electable candidates in this race are the ones who opposed the Bush administration's illegal and unjust war in Iraq. Candidates who chose to stand with George W. Bush in the most consequential vote of the last decade will continue to struggle as the casualties and cost of our misadventure in Iraq escalate.

"To the surprise of some in the media, the list of candidates who will soon struggle over their record on the war and occupation will include Dr. Dean himself.

"In fact, a new flyer mailed out by the Dean campaign in Iowa raises concerns about a pattern of misrepresentation.

http://www.calpundit.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=2837

[Tinoire]

328. Right here. Straight from the Concord Monitor in Black & White

<snip>

Kucinich was also critical of former Vermont governor Howard Dean for presenting himself as the only anti-war candidate. Dean recently mailed brochures to homes in New Hampshire with a headline stating that Dean is the only candidate who "opposed the war from the start."

"Maybe," Kucinich said of the brochures, "Dr. Dean thinks he's already won the election so he can say anything he wants. But before the votes are in, I have a question: What's up, doc?"

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/recent2003/122703%5Fkucinich%5F2003.shtml

Saturday, December 27, 2003
Kucinich: Terror alert is scare tactic

[Donna Zen]

19. Just noticed on another thread:

One of Dean's spokespeople is quoted as saying about Clark: "He spent a lifetime voting for repubs."

Now, Clark has acknowledged voting for repubs, it doesn't bother me a bit. Why? He was in the military and Reagan etal. was promising them money. I'm a teacher and vote for Democrats...sometimes I hold my nose...why? Because they support what I do.

But why would someone say that Clark spent a "life time" when he has been voting "D" for many years now? To me, that's a lie. I really, really, really, don't like liars. This is not about Dean, per se, this is something personal.

I thought about posting in the thread where the statement appeared, but just moved on instead.

I probably shouldn't be posting it here...but it pisses me off. And yes, the "I'm the only Dem...blah, blah. blah" pisses me off too.

Come November I will have one of two choices: I will either get to vote for a Democrat I really like and respect, or I will vote for a Democrat because I want to defeat bush. I'm hoping it is the former.

End rant, and I'm sorry if this interrupted the intent of this thread.

[exclark4dean]

21. He was raising money for Repugs only 2 years ago

[blm]

27. so I guess you're not REALLY an exclark4dean?

Because I cannot imagine a former Clark supporter offering that little slam.

[exclark4dean]

45. I woke up and started to think for myself

The Clark people's whole mantra is ONLY clark can beat Bush. To them he's ak night on shining armor. At first I beleived it. Now I know this is all BS, and their only game plan. Destroying other good candidates. I think Dean Clark Kerry or Gebhart could ALL beat Bus*.

I no longer subscribe to the Clark Brainwashing that he's Jesus #2.

Myabe the other Clark supporters will wake up too. He's only one of SEVERAL candidates who can win !

Wake up !

[SahaleArm]

54. Brainwashing is screamig 'Power' 600x like he's Tony Robbins n/t

[exclark4dean]

64. I've read your posts

And your one of those who think your knight in shining armor is the ONLY candidate who can beat bus@, so you destroy the others.

I support all the candiadte except Joe, but my experiience with the clark supporters negativity turned me off. I decided to support a Dem who has been a Dem for a long time.

Finding out that Wes raised money for repubs was the final straw. I just found out about this a few weeks ago. it's not something Clark supporters talk about ! It turned my stomach. There's quotes saying how much he loves bush, too. Made me sick hearing about these things.

I will still support hin though if he wins, not like you people who say you will vote for Lieberman.

[Crunchy Frog]

102. Thank you for hijacking a thread

That was about Kucinich and Dean, and turning it into another bash Clark thread. Very classy.

[SahaleArm]

135. Transparent is repeating the lastest mantra.

You have been parroting the same tripe - fake indignation. Well if you've been here for the past couple months you'd realize the amount of junk Dean supporters have been spewing on everyone else. What comes arund goes around.

[Clark Can WIN]

202. Clark is our strongest candidate but not our only hope

just our best one.


Dean is hopeless.

[blm]

269. There are quotes from Dean where he praised Bush so if that bothers you

about Clark, how do you feel about Dean doing it? In fact, Dean sided with Bush over Kerry when Kerry went after Bush on his colossal failure at Tora Bora. When asked about it by Russert Dean stood with Bush.

How do you feel about Dean giving the BFEE loyalist Koch brothers a sweetheart deal on Vermont Yankee?

How do you like that Dean pushed for electricity deregulation in Vermont, stopped only by the legislature?

Dean is MORE of a Republican than ANYONE in the race.

[aldian159]

153. haha

I forgot about the JJ dinner.

I felt like I wandered into a Billy Gramm preach-a-thon.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Donna Zen]

73. Hey...I just noticed something

You changed the subject! The subject was the lie...I wasn't talking about speeches...I was talking about voting records.

Now why would anyone do that?

[meow mix]

115. uh

maybe we just think he's the best! i do! =)

ummm,
anyone know why dean supporters are always so dang angry? lol
i just dont get it.

[Tom Rinaldo]

42. Say that then

No excuse for distorting the truth by editing out obvious inconvenient data.

[Donna Zen]

59. When everyone refuses to read

only the soundbite will rule.

One fine a day a friend, and for all of us, friends come to some with a variety of party labels, asked a retired General to give a speech. "No can do," said the General, "not in town that day."

"Oh please," said the old buddy, "Any day you can do it, is fine with us."

So the General gave the speech. Whoaeaze me! The speech started off okay...after all, it was the common drivel...everyone was saying it, the Democrats had voted unanimously to approve these folks....oh oh oh! "Very good team...blah, blah, blah."

But then came the rest of the speech! A shocker! Advising multilateralism? Oh my...how can that be?

To share the wealth...the General goes on the road, and on the stump for Democrats. (psssst! he didn't ask any repubs for $$$ that fateful evening. nada...kinda puts the lie)

Well, one fine day after the General was running for office, repub. 1 finds the speech. And rubbing his repub hands together says, "This is just the thing to make those Democrats eat their own."

"But, but...but..that's just a clip," said repub 2, "What if they read the<b> rest of the speech?</b> What if they find out the General doesn't agree with us at ALL! What if they find out...he's been a Democrat all along?"

"Posh!" said repub 1, "they'll do no such thing. Anybody knows they'd rather eat soundbites, then read the speech. How else can our smears have worked so well for long?"

And so my friends, I think you know, that reading not feeding is the way to go.

[babzilla]

144. yes, reading is fundamental

read what Kucinich really said in his speech.

Terror alert as a scare tactic. Bush trying to instill fear, he says.

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/recent2003/122703%5Fkucinich%5F2003.shtml

[Clark Can WIN]

199. I spoke at a rotary club function

Im sure they were 98% + republican. Didn't make me one. Interestingly enough I took the same debate tactic Clark used................

I gave them empty praise up front, then hit them with stuff I wanted them to listen to. If I'd attacked them right out of the gate, they'd never have listened to a word. Clark is a smart man.

[TorchTheWitch]

242. big fat BS

He was raising money for Repugs only 2 years ago.

That's a pile of bull that's been debunked on here many times. He delivered a paid speech at a GOP $X per plate fundraiser. Paid speakers aren't hired for their affiliations but for their expertise, and it's expected that a paid speaker will say some nice things in their speech regarding the audience's affiliation or the speech isn't going to be approved and they won't be hired to give it. If you had actually READ the speech, you'd acknowledge that he smacked BushCo all the way through as he cited what we were doing wrong, what we needed to do to get it right and actually gave a warning about what would probably happen if we didn't wise up:

"Anyway, a lot of that is in my book. The title of the book is 'Waging Modern War'; I'm not going to go through all of that tonight. But I'll just make a small prediction: When this book comes out, it may be World War III. Because when you're there, when you're a general and you're caught up in these things, it's just like politics or business or anything else--you know a lot of people with different ideas. And I hope that we have learned something out of this experience in the Balkans."

In fact, if you read the speech carefully (and I seriously doubt that you read it at all) you'd acknowledge that he made subtle slams against those people he said nice things about that got passed the censors, and good on him for being smart enough to put one over on the GOP.

I haven't seen you making any complaints to those Dean supporters that would love to have Gen. Anthony Zinni as Dean's VP since Zinni RECENTLY gave a paid speech to a Bechtel global business meeting or the fact that he CURRENTLY works for the Secretary of State as a special advisor. If you're going to freak out about Clark's GOP paid speech that he gave before 9/11, why are were you not freaking out about Zinni?

There's not one single doubt in my mind that you were never a Clark supporter.

[SahaleArm]

23. The Dean campaign has been transparently phony from the start...

Maybe they'll be in Al Franken's next book. Whine-a-minute:

Jay Carson, a Dean spokesman, said the ad "doesn't make up for a lifetime of voting Republican. We're looking forward to seeing the Nixon-Reagan-Bush-Rumsfeld-Cheney ad."

"Voters in America are very smart," he said. "They're not going to read a couple seconds of footage in an ad as anything more than a couple seconds of footage in the ad."

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-clark-ad,0,5158245,print.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

Stop attacking, Wahhh :cry:

[blm]

33. Hey Dean. Your election year conversion to the left is MORE suspicious

since you were pushing deregulation of electricity and making sweetheart deals for BFEE loyalists AFTER Clark was on record voting for Dems.

[BootinUp]

35. Why would we want

to replace one lying bunch of boobs with more of the same?

:shrug:

[babzilla]

147. so what are you inferring in this post?

is it that Franken's books are full of whine-a-minutes?

Have you read Franken's book? I have and let me tell you, it is all about lying liars and the lying lies that they tell and no democrats are portrayed as lying liars or transparently phoney in his writing, nor will they ever will be.

I guess you missed the NYC Dean event when Franken appeared alongside of Whoopie Goldberg and Janeane Garaofolo to support Dean.

Here are some pictures for those who weren't aware of this event:

http://photos.deanforamerica.com/gallery/25226/1/863423

[SahaleArm]

203. How you got that out of what I wrote is impressive...

and the exact opposite of the intent. Dean's campaign lies then turns around to call everybody else a liar or whines; Lies and the lying liars who tell them - Part II. Or maybe Whines and the Whiny Whiners who tell them.

[babzilla]

209. so Franken didn't really mean to fundraise for Dean in NY?

Franken didn't know what he was doing when he stood up for him onstage and soon he will denounce Gore and Dean for being whiney whiners, is that what will happen in Part II? Do go on.

[stickdog]

26. The original article in question.

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/recent2003/122703%5Fkucinich%5F2003.shtml

Until I see the entire brochure, I'm reserving judgment. All we have on this is Kucinich's say so. It might not have been official Dean literature. Or it might have mentioned DK's staunch anti-war stance in the text.

[SahaleArm]

28. If the brochure mentioned the other candidates, why would DK lie? n/t

[5thGenDemocrat]

44. Well, the brochure mentions Kerry and Gephardt

But -- huh -- not a word about Congressman Kucinich.
John
You don't suppose former Vermont governor and leading Democratic presidential candidate Howard Brush Dean MD could be bullshitting yet again, do you?

[babzilla]

156. Does it really?

the article linked doesn't mention Kerry & Gephardt.

Of course you have the brochure in your hand, so spill off a couple of quotes to inform us about what the brochure mentions exactly about Kerry & Gephardt.

This could be helpful in trying to track down exactly where this brochure originated from.

[5thGenDemocrat]

186. Have it your way

Under the heading 'IRAQ...WHAT PLAN? Only Dean Opposed the War from the Start':
Page 2, para 2:
"Remarkably, leading Washington Democrats sided with the Administration in support of the war. Rep. Dick Gephardt and Sen. John Kerry both voted "Yes" with the President and recently Gephardt voted to give Bush $87 billion more to spend on Iraq."
para 3:
"OPPOSING THE WAR FROM THE START. Howard Dean is the only major Democratic candidate for President who opposed the war from the start -- and is against spending another $87 billion there. His fervent opposition to the war has caught fire and his campaign is transforming American politics as we know it."
Note, if you will, the difference between the article's headline and the qualifier in para 3. Isn't Kucinich a "major" candidate? He's one of nine persons in the entire US running for the Democratic nomination, so I say he is. Who is Dean to say he isn't?
John
Still here. Still taking questions.

[babzilla]

205. well it is good to get some details

about this onorous brochure.

Doesn't sound so bad as it was made out to be. In fact it sounds about right.

So the real problem is that Kucinich wasn't qualified as a "major" candidate in the brochure.

Who is Dean to say Kucinich isn't a "major" candidate?
Tell me again who is calling Kucinich a major candidate and I will get back to you on how wrong Dean is on the major matter.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

208. sorry, I have to criticize.

I know you wanted me to make a positive Dean post and I did that way up near the top.

But the defense of this by saying Dennis is not a major candidate smacks of arrogance to no end. So you get to choose. Outright lie? Or disturbing arrogance? Either way Dean comes out on the bad end in my view.

:hi:

TWL

[babzilla]

217. if that is how you want it to turn out

I guess Dean comes out on the bad end as you see it.

I came into this thread because the OP was posting to get Kucinich supporters to alert the media against Dean because of a dubious brochure.

I read the article in question and saw it as an attempt by Kucinich to alert the media about the Bush administration using the fear of terror as a partisan method against the democratic party.

So I get to choose between outright lie or disturbing arrogance?

No, that is not my choice in this instance. I get to choose between what Kucinich was really trying to say in this speech and what others have put forward as an attempt to twist Kucinich's speech to convince me that it was all a Dean bash. I read the speech and I understand and agree with what he is trying to communicate to me, and it isn't about Dean.

This thread should be heralding what Dennis is saying

Kucinich said the terror alert was confusing for many people. He described it as "Beware! But enjoy the holidays."

instead of setting people against one another, which is exactly what he is warning us about!

[ThirdWheelLegend]

221. Actually the thread is about the brochure lie...

That is a copy of an email that came from the Kucinich campaign. Not from an outside source. I receieved the same email. Just not until I got home and there was already a thread or I would have posted the same thing.

It is an alert from the Kucinich campaign on another dishonest remark by Dean that is a slight not only to Kucinich but to other anti-war candidates.

Yes and you are right, Kucinich once again speaks the truth about 'terror alerts'

TWL

[babzilla]

231. so your email was this dean brochure

slighting the other anti-war candidates too?

I am curious to the specifics of the dishonest remarks by Dean that the Kucinich campaign notified you about.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

234. hmmm.. Image from the brochure inside

Are you not familiar with Dean's first lie on this issue? A couple months ago Dean was running ads in N.H. with him specifically stating that ".. all my opponents could.... before they supported the war". This was Dean speaking. Kucinich called him on it, then Dean acknowledged the ads were wrong and pulled them. But only after someone took him to task. He let them run until then, knowing the message was false.

Now this is supposedly an OFFICIAL Dean for America brochue that is being handed out. Another outright lie. It is entirely misleading.

Here is an actual image from the brochure:



Thats what this thread is about as far as I could tell.

TWL

[babzilla]

240. if that is an actual image from the brochure

why can't you show the rest of it?

[5thGenDemocrat]

295. I'd scan it for you and TWL if I had a scanner, which I don't

But I can testify that that is, indeed, an EXACT copy of what is inside the brochure. Right down to the color and the typeface.
John
What I want to know is why did Howard allow it to go out in official campaign literature? Of course, the front of the brochure says "Dean for America, candidate for president," as opposed to, say, "Democratic candidate for president," so maybe it's just poor proofreading.

[5thGenDemocrat]

212. The issue isn't about the "major"

"Major" is only mentioned in passing, in 12-point type buried in the second paragraph of the article. But I do see some deception in the 30-point headline which screams (in boldface, all caps): ONLY DEAN OPPOSED THE WAR FROM THE START.
See why Kucinich or Sharpton supporters might have some problems with this? Of course you don't. But I'll wait to see if any of the supporters of these candidates do.
John
I'd have some problem with the "Health Care for All" headline on page four of this same brochure. In the text of the accompanying article, Dean says he actually provided health care for "96% of Vermont's children" and helped pay for prescription drugs for "(one-third) of seniors on Medicare."
Now, these are admirable and laudable accomplishments -- worthy of presenting in their own right -- but "Health Care for All"? Not hardly.
Oh, well. Let Dean spin his fabulous tale however he wants to. I don't intend to vote for him, anyhow, so I really don't care.

[mikehiggins]

155. Why would DK lie?

I can't think of a reason. Maybe the people who do might have a problem with the truth themselves?

Maybe they're those old style win-at-any-cost kinds of politicians our new anointed frontrunner is going to save us from.

Maybe its necessary to burn the village to save it.

[LWolf]

38. Perhaps you can get

5thGenDemocrat to scan & email it to you?

[5thGenDemocrat]

68. I'd be delighted to xerox and mail it if I have your address

There's a instant print shop a block and a half from here, and I've got some extra stamps. Good enough?
John
Doing my part for democracy.

[diamondsoul]

78. I'll PM you my addy.

I WANT a HARD COPY of this one!

[5thGenDemocrat]

84. Fair enough

I'll mail it out tomorrow. Think kind thoughts about Wesley Clark.
John
Even though HE still hasn't sent me ANYTHING. Damn.

[LiberalBushFan]

48. Reserving judgement on what?

judgement on whether to come up with some tortured defense of Dean?

[Mairead]

233. If you'll read it more carefully, you'll see that it's the Monitor

reporting what the brochure said. That's not a quote from DK. His quote comes in the paragraph following the Monitor's characterisation.

[Scott Lee]

32. Excuse me, but it's correct

Only Dean DID oppose the war from the start - the start of the presidential run. At the time he was the only one in the field who opposed it from the start. Kucinich came in later.

[BootinUp]

39. If you're going to make that claim

would it be too much to ask for a date and link to the actual statement you refer to?

[blm]

40. So if you supported the same measure that allowed Bush use of force

that makes you antiwar?

Uh...other antiwar folks were against ANY resolution that allowed Bush to make that determination of force. Dean was FOR that measure that was included in the IWR.

[Dookus]

51. If that's what they're inferring...

they're fundamentally dishonest.

That's a parsing of "from the beginning" that beggars belief. Clearly, Kucinich was against the war "from the beginning". From the beginning of the WAR, not just the beginning of Dean's campaign.

[Blitz]

67. I haven't commented much on the candidates to date

but my God, that is some INTENSE spin. I mean, that's up there with what "is" is. What next? He was the only candidate that opposed the war from the start of Ramadan? Because, from the beginning of Ramadan until Dean spoke out, no one else spoke out about it? That makes exactly as much sense. How about "Doctor Dean was the first candidate in December to speak out against the war yup, 12:01 a.m., December 1, 2003."

Dean screwed up. Again. He'd win some points if he showed that he has the character to own up to it.

[mikehiggins]

157. I'm surprised you aren't used to it already.

This is the coin of the realm in the bright shiny new Democratic party that our anointed frontrunner is bringing us.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

158. hahaha brilliant...but what's sick about this..

Is that is actually how the Deaniacs DEFEND these OUTRIGHT LIES FOR PERSONAL CAMPAIGN GAIN.

Again, great example ! :)


GO DENNIS!

Dean is now officially the last of the 9 for me and to think BEFORE KUCINICH JOINED THE RACE, DEAN WAS MY NUMBER ONE!(look up old posts of mine to see me proposing Dean/kucinich or Kucinich/Dean)

TWL

[Mairead]

235. No, it's deceptive. It doesn't define the reference point for 'start'

Kucinich could easily say 'start' too, and mean the start of BushCo's drumbeat---a much earlier 'start' than the start of the campaign.

Don't work so hard at being a Dean apologist--it demeans you.

[killbotfactory]

34. Where's the brochure?

Was it official?

[Duder]

57. Probably not official but...

I think we've done away with little things like trials and evidence lately. ;)

[killbotfactory]

309. No kidding...

Evidence? We don't need no stinking evidence!

[babzilla]

46. Kucinich: Terror alert is scare tactic

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/recent2003/122703%5Fkucinich%5F2003.shtml

Bush trying to instill fear, he says

"They (the administration) are building up fear to become more powerful politically," Kucinich said. "My whole campaign is to challenge this fear, this fear about the Patriot Act, the fear about Iraq. The fear of Iraq was not founded. They didn't attack us. They didn't have weapons of mass destruction."

<snip/>

"Let me tell you what it's about," Kucinich said. "It's about controlling people, and I have the gift to see through lies, and this government is not legitimate."

This article you refer to is all about Kucinich speaking out against the administration using the fear factor against us. The comment on the Dean brochure is a throwaway paragraph on the end.

"Maybe," Kucinich said of the brochures, "Dr. Dean thinks he's already won the election so he can say anything he wants. But before the votes are in, I have a question: What's up, doc?"

The speech by Kucinich reported on is all about Bush trying to instill fear, that is the message that he is was obviously trying to convey, why not get the word out about his primary message instead of the what's up doc quote? The rest of the article deals with the real important issues to Dennis' campaign.

Why are you asking people to contact the media to politely ask about Dean's "misrepresentation" instead of contacting the media to focus on Kucinich's primary message of fear being used as a political tactic?

Also, where did the image from the brochure come from? It doesn't look like a scan from a mailed brochure. Is it from an electronic version that was emailed as well? If there is an electronic version of the brochure, where is the rest of it? I went to the url from the properties of the image but got an error message that I am not authorized to view this page.

[lurk_no_more]

52. But bush lies too!

Welcome to dean 101.

Lesson#1 If bush does it, it is OK to do it too.

The man is a liar and doesn't care who he lies about or what he lies about. Not only was he NOT the only one against the war from the start but wasn't against the war at all.

I know this doesn't ease the anger but it does tell just what matters most to this man, when Nader said there was no difference, this is just what he meant.


Food for thought from….“JAFO”

[HFishbine]

58. Oh for goodness sakes

When you guys calm down enough to check the facts, you'll realize there is no evidence that "Dean does it again," but rather that the article was merely giving its readers some context. "Recently" is the key word from the quote and the pretext for the hystrionics being fanned here. Recently doesn't always mean yesterday, or even last week.

Dean has already been chastised for this, by Dean and Kucinish supporters alike, and as another poster noted above, he's been atoning for it by given Kucinich props for his anti-war stance on the campaign trail. There is no "again" here.

[Cheswick2.0]

62. you know the screamers just love an excuse to scream

sour grapes is all it is.

[TLM]

146. It is almost as if they think that if Dean had given kucinich a note

to say that he too was against teh war... somehow Kucinich would be the front runner.


And while Kucinich was against the war... Dean was out in front of that charge.

[Nadienne]

285. "Dean was out in front of that charge"

But he was not alone.

How hard would it have been for Dean to acknowledge this? It actually would have done himself some good. So, why? Why couldn't he tell the truth?

And all this value that gets placed on the front-runner... Absolutely inflated. Kucinich's foundation is a rock. Dean's foundation is sand that will crumble with the tides of public favor. Mark my words.

[diamondsoul]

76. That's funny. There a fellow here

with no dog in this fight who has a copy of the brochure. Says it arrived "last week". Keep on making excuses. I'd love to hear what you'll say when he lies in the White House too. Let's remember he DOES think it's ok for a President to lie to the people in matters of National Security. I guess it;s ok to lie to the people to get elected too.

[HFishbine]

82. So we've gone from citing a newspaper to

Some "fellow" who's bad with dates.

[diamondsoul]

85. No problem. I'll get a hard copy myself

and scan it in. I damn sure want people to think twice before nominating yet another lying politician.

[Duder]

93. Since you have a scanner

Then you realize that anyone can make a brochure.

I noticed it didn't have the Burlington HQ address but a local one for Michigan. Didn't Conyers from Michigan endorse Dean today?

I damn sure wish people would think at least once sometimes.

[diamondsoul]

95. Yes, and I also know that any brochures sent out

From any State Kucinich campaign office HAVE to be approved by NATIONAL before they carry the Kucinich for President endorsement. Unless Dean and Trippi are running a messier campaign than Kucinich, it's official.

[HFishbine]

106. Well, it is a decentralized campaign

I'm not sure how two posters know of the same brochure, unless you're buds or something, or you each got one. But, I'm sure we'll get to teh bottom of this.

[diamondsoul]

108. That would be a little thing called trust-

which Howard Dean and his campaign have yet to earn from me. I requested that 5thGenDemocrat copy the entire flier as well as the envelope with postmark if possible. If not, I guess I'll have some phone calling to do, but let me tell you this will not go away.

Kucinich does NOT LIE, ever. If he says there been a flier that distorts reality circulated in NH &/or Iowa, he's telling the truth. I'd stake my own life on that one.

[5thGenDemocrat]

97. Yes, Conyers endorsed Dean today

My congressman, Dale Kildee (MI-5th District) endorsed Clark this weekend.
I don't have a scanner, but I do have a postman -- who brought said flier to my mailbox. The return address, 124 W. Allegan Street, Suite 1120, Lansing, puts the sender in a high-rent district, right across from the state capitol.
I would guess the Olds Plaza -- but it could be the Michigan National Bank building, too (I'm not quite as good at Lansing addresses as I could be, but I do know downtown Lansing to some extent).
I suppose you feel compelled to presume I'm stupid. That's your prerogative, I guess. But I wish you'd think at least once before assuming I just fell off a turnip truck.

[diamondsoul]

101. See post #95 for why that means nothing.

NO campaign would let a flier circulate with the National log on it unless it was approved by Nationa Headquarters. Keeerist, even Kucinich's people as tight as our budget is know better!

[babzilla]

243. actually anyone can circulate anything

Do the Kucinich people really circulate every piece of paper to be approved by "National Headquarters"?

Where is this National Headquarters exactly?

[diamondsoul]

302. Cleveland Ohio,

and yes. As a State Coordinator, my instructions are NOTHING leave my volunteers hands with the National Campaign logo on it without the approval of National Headquarters FIRST.

Generally speaking our flyers are created as PDFs and sent to Headquarters staff to be approved.

[Duder]

109. Not saying you fell off the turnip truck

I just noticed that the quality of what was posted didn't seem up to the standards of the "official" brochures I've seen.
If Lansing isn't too far you might check with the state office and inquire if it was approved by the National office.

[HFishbine]

110. Not calling you stupid, just wating to be covinced. That return address

BTW, is a telecommunication company:

Waypoint Telecommunications, LLC
124 W. Allegan Suite 1120
Lansing, MI 48933

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:g6gcU85LQwwJ:www.mml.org/legal/telecomlist.pdf++Allegan+Street%22+Suite+1120+Lansing&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[diamondsoul]

113. I'll tell you what, I'm willing to take some deep

breaths here and give you the benefit of the doubt. I'll go do my own poking around a bit and see if I find a connection with Dean's campaign in that building (because as we all know lots of office buildings rent space, right?).

And I'm going to tell you up front, one of the biggest traits I love about Kucinich is his integrity and honesty. I wouldn't even consider making something up to smear Dean, so anything I find I'll do my damndest to prove to your satisfaction. If I find nothing, and Dean shows some honor by looking into where the flier that some people have apparently seen came from, I'll make a public apology and donate to Dean.

Does that sound fair?

[Duder]

118. Sounds fair

The address is where there's a Michigan DFA phone banking office but it'd be interesting to see what you find out about the brochure.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

185. guess you won't be donating to Dean...

Honestly there are two scenarios here. Both lead to Dean and campaign being irresponsible and promoting a lie.

1) This is official and Dean lies for personal gain once again.

2) It is a fake and is being distributed WITHOUT the Dean campaign's knowledge? HUH? They haven't made a public statement denouncing it as a fake. Which then once again puts them in the position of perpetuating a lie for gain.

GO DENNIS! and go diamondsoul!


TWL

[HFishbine]

254. Sounds fair

Since the above promise for a posting of the scanned brochure never materialized, maybe you can at least confirm who occupies the office at the purported return address.

[Melinda]

276. Hey HFishbine, see if you can get 5thGen to cough up the date

of mailing while you're at it? The premise of this thread is that this supposed distribution is CURRENT - and I'm not buying it. Thanks! :hi:

[HFishbine]

279. When They Post The Scanned Brochure

We'll be able to see the date of the postmark. I'm sure it will be posted any minute now.

[Bread and Circus]

63. Dean's shenanigans regarding this issue is why he lost...

any of my good will.

[janx]

143. Really? I come from a family of surgeons at Wash U.

Care to share your thoughts?

[JasonDeter]

66. Yes I would have suggested Dean word it different

Dean, the only candidate who has a chance beating bush who opposed the Iraq war from the beginning. That would have been more accurate.
Does this really mean Dean is unelectable to folk here?

[SahaleArm]

72. Even that's still not true (Biden-Lugar, 30-60 days, etc.) n/t

[killbotfactory]

96. Biden-Lugar, 30-60 days does not equal the Iraq war

[TLM]

160. This crap again....

We once again see this Salon half quote being tossed around to try and claim Dean supported the Iraq war with a 30-60 day deadline, then flip flopped.

He (Dean) gets a deluge of phone calls from reporters asking him to clarify his position. Which is -- "as I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.

Now first of all notice the quotes… the underlined part is not an exact quote, but a paraphrase. Although some would love to try and trick people into thinking it is an exact quote, because this is what they try to use to claim Dean waffled on his position on the war in Iraq.

The problem is Dean never waffled… his position has been consistently against the war because there was no imminent threat posed by Iraq, and thus no justification for unilateral pre-emptive war. What Dean did support was continuation of the inspection and disarming process, through the UN. And IF weapons were found and if there was a real imminent threat to America, AND the UN refused to take action… then and only then, would Dean reluctantly support such action.

Now what the Dean opponents do is cut this little bit out of the story and present it as if Dean was saying 30-60 days period… with no prerequisite of an imminent threat. But once again, if you read the few paragraphs before that quote, you see this that the quote has been taken out of context to hide the fact that Dean specifically notes before that statement that there is no imminent threat, and they hadn’t made the case for war.

Hence, today's phone calls. It's Thursday, Feb. 6, the day after Secretary of State Colin Powell's presentation to the United Nations of evidence of Iraq's noncompliance with Resolution 1441. Edwards calls it "a powerful case." Kerry says it's "compelling." Lieberman, of course, is already in his fatigues.

Dean isn't sold. It doesn't indicate that Iraq is an imminent threat, he says.

From Washington come the barbs -- The New Republic calls it proof he's "not serious." ABC News' "The Note" wonders if he's backed himself into a corner. Dean has opposed the pending war because he didn't think President Bush had made his case. If he doesn't support military action now, the thinking goes, then he's just contradicting himself. Or, at the very least, he's been put in an untenable and -- for the moment, at least inside war-ready Washington, unpopular -- position.

He gets a deluge of phone calls from reporters asking him to clarify his position. Which is -- "as I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.



So you see not only did Dean say that Powell didn’t make the case… in the paragraph just prior they reiterate Dean’s opposition to the war and ho unpopular of a position that was at the time. It s no wonder the Dean opponents cut that out.

And that begs the question… why do they have to put all this energy into making things up about Dean, finding quotes to spin out of context, and attacking folks who support Dean? Don’t let them fool you, because they’ll try very very hard to do so.

[mouse7]

191. Dean said 30-60 regarding allowing inspectors into Iraq

It's in the Face The Nation transcript from 9/30/02...

I was stuck with my nose in it all day yesterday, so I can damn near quote the thing verbatim.

Dean said on FAce The Nation on 9/30 that weapons inspectors needed to be allowed into Iraq with a 30-60 day deadline established. Hostilities justified if inspectors not allowed in. He expected on 9/30 that the US would be part of a UN or NATO coalition.

He also clearly stated that only an "imminent threat" constituted a justification for invasion of Iraq. That's the standard allowed by international law for military force to be used.

[babzilla]

70. Kucinich does it again, yeaaaaah!

Kucinich said. "My whole campaign is to challenge this fear, this fear about the Patriot Act, the fear about Iraq. The fear of Iraq was not founded. They didn't attack us. They didn't have weapons of mass destruction."

Its hard to believe that Dennis Kucinich supporters would rather spend their time bashing Dean instead of speaking out for what he is really trying to do for this country.

WHAT YOU CAN DO TO CHALLENGE THE FEAR:

1.--Contact all of your friends who are Dean supporters and encourage them to challenge this fear and congragulate them for supporting a fellow anti-war candidate, no matter who said it first.

2.--Contact the media and ask them why "The government is trying to place fear everywhere," as Kucinich told some 60 people yesterday inside Yankee Book Peddler, a library services company. Remember to be polite and keep to the point. Make each communication unique. No form letters.

Here are Email addresses for letters to the editor:
http://www.kucinich.us/responses_contacts.php

Here are phone numbers for talk shows:
http://www.kucinich.us/responses_phones.htm

Here are a few key places to contact:

New York Times News Desk phone [phone], fax [phone],
Email [email protected]

Los Angeles Times News Desk phone [phone], fax: [phone].

Washington Post Political Desk phone [phone], fax [phone].

USA Today News Desk phone [phone], fax [phone].

[windansea]

87. buh bye Dean

you are toast!

[BootinUp]

89. I think we are seeing

that he has reached his peak. Could be wrong though.

[corporatewhore]

94. you might be right if

people dont want some one who is misleading deceptive and oppertunistic

[babzilla]

99. hey corporatewhore

Did you notice the primary message that Kucinich was making in this speech?

When you read this article about his speech do you really think that Kucinich is more concerned about criticizing Dean or criticizing Bush?

When you read about this speech, why do you take it to mean that you should concentrate your energies to send messages to the media against Dean, instead of sending out messages against the terror alert as fear factor?

[diamondsoul]

105. Or we could bre really smart,

and do both. Dean is lying to the public yet again. For personal gain. Remind you of anyone?

Hmmm- Bush is lying to the public on a daily basis....major reaction to war=fear, major reaction to terror alert=fear

Naaaah, no similarity there at all. Absolutely no cause to be concerned, right?:eyes:

[babzilla]

111. well if you think that it is beneficial

or 'really smart' to divide your energies against Bush and Dean that is your prerogative.

I find it odd when Kucinich people on this board go out of their way to attack Dean, I see them coming from a similiar place especially in terms of foreign policy and the current state of the democratic party.

If you read the article reporting on Dennis' NH campaining he is concentrating on criticizing Bush, not Dean.

This is the real story of the Kucinich campaign, this is the real reason that he is a good democratic candidate.

"A crooked business deal" is how Kucinich characterized the administration's decision not to allow foreign companies to bid on Iraqi reconstruction contracts.

[diamondsoul]

117. Look upthread a bit.

You make a reasonable point, and I'm willing to do a little investigating. How about Dean supporters? Are you all willing to seriously look into this and deal with what turns up?

I've offered to go looking, and I've stated that one of my main sources of admiration for Dennis Kucinich is his integrity. That being the case there's no way in hell I'd make something up to smear Dean with, and I'm more than willing to provide every shred of supporting evidence I can get my hands on for anything I do find.

If I find no connection to the Dean For America campaign, I'll make a donation and a public apology.

[MidwestMomma]

119. Your offer represents the best of Dennis Kucinich's supporters

Dennis must be happy to be supported by someone like you. :yourock:

[diamondsoul]

122. Thank you, very much.

And your suggestion to the Dean supporters about checking for a PDF of the flier would go a long way toward restoring my belief that the Dean supporters I met on the DFA boards, plus the handful who came by the Kucinich Volunteer boards to post kind things are representative of most of his supporters.

The reaction here is disappointing after the reception I got at the DFA boards.

[babzilla]

128. read the article

Kucinich is not asking for his supporters to reach out to the media to complain against Dean, the person that posted this thread is the one to suggest it.

If you read the article, Kucinich is simply making the point that Bush is trying to instill fear tactics through the terrorist alert system. This Dean supporter agrees with Dennis' assessment on this matter, as most Dem's do. I don't see the controversy in this issue re: Dean & Kucinich.

For my part, I just went to the Dean downloads section of his website to search for this supposed flyer and didn't come up with anything that was close to what has been rumored to have been mailed out to NH.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=downloads

I am bothered that the original poster went out of his way to put the spotlight on the incidental mention of the "Dean brochure", instead of posting the article in an attempt to point out the real message that Kucinich was conveying.

Dennis Kucinich was trying to put out the message that the Bush administration is using fear for partisan purposes in this speech.

That should be the message that resonates, as he intended.

[MidwestMomma]

130. You keep trying to deflect the issue

But nobody is listening...probably because the Kucinich supporters know what the issue is and are trying to address it.

It's a known fact that Dean ran TV ads stating he was the only candidate to oppose the war. So I can see why people are ready to believe there are brochures stating the same. Maybe the brochures were printed to coincide with the TV ad and they didn't get pulled like the ad. I don't know cause I'm not a part of the Dean team.

You could at least be honest enough to admit that this is a pretty upsetting issue for the Kucinich supporters. Dennis Kucinich fought a valiant fight in the House trying to stop the war that so many of us here at DU opposed. And this is the thanks he gets?

[babzilla]

136. I am sorry that you are pretty upset as a Kucinich supporter

I appreciate Kucinich for the valiant fight in the House to try to stop the war, I don't see a disconnect between the Dean & Kucinich camps, they seem to be on the same page.

The issue that I am trying to deflect is that there is no allegiance between the Kucinich supporters and the Dean supporters.

All of the Kucinich supporters that I have met in real life have the same goal in mind as the Dean supporters do, that is to beat bush out of the whitehouse.

[diamondsoul]

133. Thanks very much for checking that out.

And you're right about the main focus of Dennis' message. Even so he is known for challenging Dean when he doesn't speak the whole truth, and we've been through the anti-war wringer before.

I'm going to keep to my word and do a little questioning here and there, plus look up a few things that I know I can get to pretty easily. I'd like to think Governor Dean will do the respectable thing and apologize if he finds an overzealous supporter was responsible for a campaign he wasn't aware of. Unfortunately past experience hasn't left me very hopeful about that. (Nothing personal against you, that's MY impression of the Governor's reactions to things so far.)

[DemBones DemBones]

236. You misunderstand. . . the Kucinich Campaign sent

us all an e-mail which was reproduced in the post that began this thread. It is ENTIRELY about this issue of the brochure. Yes, Kucinich spoke out about terror alerts and that's worth discussing as well, but we are discussing DEAN'S LIES in this new brochure right now.

If Dean gets the nomination, he will need all the votes he can get against Bush. Many of us are very angry about Dean's lies and don't want to vote for him. We are ABB&D.

Dean says that you, his supporters, have the POWER, right? Well, suppose you -- a lot of you -- use your power to get him to stop lying? If he were to clean up his act starting now, he might be able to get us to put aside the ill will we have for him now. He's going to need our votes if he makes the run against Bush.

[babzilla]

245. can you copy & paste it for us?

all I have seen so far is this



maybe I can understand with a little more context.

[mouse7]

196. Oh yeah, a brochure sent from a state group is same as Dubya

Dean may or may not have okayed a bad brochure. It might have been done by a state group with no okay from Burlington.

That said, even if the brouchure is a complete and utter lie, you dare to compare the brouchure on the same level of sheer evil as Dumbya?

Now you know why the left in this country gets nothing accomplished. They have no sense of proportion.

Shock and Awe... EVIL!

Eating chicken sandwich... EVIL! (non vegan)

Both crimes equal in their eyes.

[mouse7]

192. yeah, right

You prononce Dean is toast 20-30 times a day.

Your record isn't too good.

[revcarol]

98. This oughta be worth $100,000 to the Kucinich campaign!!

When Koppel trashed Kucinich, he got a $250,000 bump in contributions.

And Dean ain't no Koppel.
By tomorrow, every Kucinich supporter will be sending in $5.00 more, even if they have to eat beans for two weeks. Good job, Dean. You upped the ante again so Kucinich gets publicity.

[markus]

100. A lot of Dean's support will evaporate or vote Green

if he doens't win the nomination.

I don't think that's a threat. I think that's a fair statement of the reality of the entire Dean movement.

There's a certain segment out there in the Dean campaign that are either new or returning voters who would only support an anti-establishment candidate. And there are people who may have voted for Nader who are holding their noses (or closing there eyes to Dean's record) and voting for an angry, anti-Bush candidate.

If the nominee is anyone but Dean, that nominee is going to have to deal with this constituency, and failing to do so will cost them the election. For these people, I believe Dean's endorement will be meaningless.

One important thing about Dean: he will bring these people to the polls in November '04, even as he reache out to the middle based on his record as governor.

There probably isn't another candidate who can win these votes for the Democratic Party and still appeal to centrist, swing voters.

And swing voters aren't, at the end of the day, that important. The number of actual party splitters has been declining every election for the last several decades. Elections are won and lost with core voters and people who lean largely to one party or the other but who are not reliable, "chronic" voters.

Dean has the potential to motivate the party core, the left-leaning and disaffected leaners who haven't voted or voted for Nader, and to potentially energize the centrist-side leaners.

[Tom Rinaldo]

116. If what you imply really really were true

It would be like everyone who has not joined Dean's campaign being held hostage, and blackmailed at the same time, by a determined minority who threatened to quit playing the game if they aren't allowed to win. That wouldn't be totally unfair I suppose if Dean really only was attracting supporters from Naderites and those who had given up on voting whose votes never could otherwise be counted on, but I don't think that's the case.

I think Dean has begun to fall so deeply into his "I am the anti-establishment" persona game plan that he is starting to breed distrust for all "None-Dean" Democrats within parts of his base, where that distrust wasn't deeply rooted before. Initially Dean attracted many Democratic leaning voters who were looking for a Democrat courageous enough to stand up to Bush, now increasingly it is becoming anyone who doesn't stand up for Dean isn't a real Democrat. Dean is starting to feed the alienation of his supporters by his sweeping attacks on Washington politicians, the DLC, and identifying Bush-Lites behind every, well, bush. Then he uses that increasing alienation to turn around and threaten, "I am the pied piper, make a deal with me or watch me take your children away."

[NewYorkerfromMass]

121. Yep, and for each supposed Green or otherwise disaffecteds

there are many centrist and swing voters who will be lost to the other side.

[Donna Zen]

126. Well said...

and thank you. I'm having a hard time with this split that grows deeper by the day. I'm determined to mark my ballot with an "X" beside the Democrat, but this attitude of "our way or the highway" is making that decision a bitter pill to swallow. By putting my gut feelings into words, you've made the issue intellectual rather than emotional, and thus, easier to deal with. Thanks again.

[BootinUp]

127. lol! pied piper, nicely worded as usual.n/t

[ThirdWheelLegend]

207. Dean's supporters are greens? Since when?

If they hold the green party platform to heart then they would most likely support Kucinich. Kucinich's positions are MILES closer to the Greens than Dean's.

"Dean has the potential to motivate the party core, the left-leaning and disaffected leaners who haven't voted or voted for Nader, and to potentially energize the centrist-side leaners."

You really need to provide proof.

TWL

[Blitz]

238. "And swing voters aren't, at the end of the day, that important."

And that is a misconception that, if relied upon, will make 1988 look like a squeaker. I'm talking about losing, literally, every state in the Union (however, nothing short of an act of God will make D.C. vote Republican). What many people don't understand is that "Angry" != "Base." The base includes centrist Democrats and Kucinich Democrats and Gephardt Democrats. The very people that Dean is currently alienating. People that will stay home or, in many cases, vote for Bush. I know MANY people who voted for Gore in 2000 who intend to vote for Bush in 2004. Dean, as a result of the kind of scorched-earth campaign he has decided to run, will, if he gets the nomination, start the general election campaign bloody and battered against a popular, fresh and much better funded war time President. Moreover, if he DOESN'T get the nomination, he will have weakened whoever the eventual nominee is.

If Dean gets every single Nader voter and loses just 20% of centrist/conservative ("Lieberman") Democrats, the election will be over before polls close in California.

[zulchzulu]

107. What else do you expect from a pathological liar?

Dean has built his candidacy on lies and half-truths about himself and the other candidates.

Why are you surprised?

[MidwestMomma]

114. Why don't one of you Dean folks go look up New Hampshire brochures?

I'm sure that someone connected to the campaign can find a copy of what brochures are being handed out in New Hampshire. After all, isn't everything organized on the internet?

I know I there are all sorts of brochures for download and such aren't there? Seems like somebody would be able to find something out instead of spending all your time bashing the Kucinich people who are understandably upset about this matter.

I know you get worn out from all the 'attacks' but this seems like a geniune concern and one that I would think you would like to check into instead of accusing the Kucinich supporters of lying about the brochure.

Take a step back for a minute and think...these are Kucinich supporters. From what I've read on the board, these are some of the most rational, even-handed posters on the board. They spend most of their time on threads supporting their candidate and rarely start attack threads. (Except maybe for a certain woofer :))

So why don't you see what you can find out?

And if you found out the brochure exists as stated, let us know what you think then. Thanks.

[Lefta Dissenter]

120. OK, I'm sorry, but now I have to

send some money to Kucinich. DAMN. I haven't contributed to anyone but Clark so far, but these constant lies totally overlooking DK's record are really pissing me off.

I can't believe how rabid some of the supporters become in their defense of dean's mistakes. Right away, it's that DK is lying, the DU member who has the brochure in his hand is lying, it wasn't an official brochure, it meant major candidate, no, when we say beginning, we mean the beginning of dean's campaign.... edit: Oh no, wait, I forgot an important one... As soon as bush stops lying, then dean will stop, too... the spin goes on and on, round and round.

Kucinich isn't my first choice (duh, couldn't have guessed that by my name, avatar and sig), but he's right up there, and I will be proud to support him and vote for him if he ends up being the Democratic nominee. That's a hell of a lot more than I can say about 1 or 2 other Dem candidates.

By the way, if we're counting 'beginning' as 'beginning of a campaign,' then Clark's way ahead of dean, because he was speaking out against the war when he was commentator on CNN, well before he was a candidate.

[Tom Rinaldo]

123. Yup, it depends on how you define "is".

Wasn't that the line Clinton used that the Republicans had so much fun jumping on? I might have got it wrong, but you know what I mean.

[5thGenDemocrat]

131. As the guy with the brochure in hand (and 5000-plus posts)

I'm a bit miffed, too. I've said I'm a Clark supporter, but the issue at hand concerns Dean and Kucinich (and, less directly, Kerry and Gephardt). I have been a journalist over 25 years and I know what an official campaign flier looks like. I also know how to read.
I don't like Dean, but I saved his brochure BECAUSE I knew it would come up sooner or later and wanted to have original source material directly from the horse's -- er -- mouth. I didn't write or endorse the words, the Dean for America campaign did.
Why don't you Dean supporters look up the street address, or e-mail them or phone them to verify this? I gave you all that information. As far as I'm concerned, it's pure Dean bullsauce -- printed in four colors under the campaign's imprimatur.
John
Some folks here either must think I'm a liar or think I'm stupid. But I still have the Dean flier in front of me. So why don't you ask the good Doctor why he's intentionally trying to mislead this poor old sap?
ON EDIT: One other thing: This brochure is not only full-color and two-sided, but also double-folded (six pages total) and printed on a single 10.5 x 24 inch sheet of paper. Does that sound like an amateur, scanner-printed job to you?

[windansea]

134. I believe you

can tell just from your posts you're a good guy!

[5thGenDemocrat]

137. Well, thank you

A fella likes to be told that once in a while.
I may (I do) have my own opinions of Dean (most of which this brochure just confirms), but if I say I've GOT PROOF here, then I have proof. I'll let Dean deal in bullsauce. I don't have to because I'm not running for anything.
Thanks again for the kind word.
John
Standing by for any other questions.

[Melinda]

140. Are you in NH or Michigan?

[Clark Can WIN]

194. Is there some reason why that should make a thinbleshit

of difference? A lie is a lie in any state.

[Melinda]

198. Sorry, are you 5thGenDem?

[burrowowl]

145. Does it have a Union mark

DK's campaign insists on using Union printers!
Does Dean?

[5thGenDemocrat]

148. Yes, it does

Between the return address and the "Paid for Dean for America" notation on the back cover. Squinting through the magnifying glass, I believe it says "GCIU."
John
Who did, indeed, look for the Union label.

[Melinda]

150. 5thGenDemocrat - I keep asking - ARE YOU IN NH or MI?

Please respond? Pretty, pretty please? :hi:

[HFishbine]

263. When, did you receive said brochure? (n/t)

[MoonRiver]

129. Yes, this is an outrageous lie.

Add this to the threat that none of his supporters will vote for any Dem candidate other than him and I feel like :puke:

[Freddie Stubbs]

159. At lest he did not say that he would have voted for it

only to change his story a day later after the sh*t had hit the fan.

[BootinUp]

162. Clark's position is no different than Deans

They both supported a mulit-lateral UN effort to disarm Iraq. Anyone who claims Dean is pure as Snow White lives in Disneyland. The man didn't have to vote for cris sakes!

[Freddie Stubbs]

170. Clark and Dean both have the same position on this issue, but

Clark is the only one who was caught on tape saying that he would have voted for it. He took back his comments the next day (or perhaps later that day), but I doubt that the Republicans would include that retraction in their TV commercials.

[revcarol]

132. The cover of the Nation with Wellstone:

"Politics is what we dare to imagine."

DK imagines a world without fear of the U. S.and its war machine.

DK imagines a nation that does not pre-emptively go to war based on lies.+

DK imagines a nation that will spend its national treasure wisely, instead of feeding the Defense Dept. pork and contractors.

DK imagines that one day the new President will tell the truth, and that goes for his fellow Presidential candidates.

Imaginings diametrically opposed to Dean's positions.

[Freddie Stubbs]

161. Kucinich can keep on 'imagining'

Imagining that he is a serious candidate for President, while the real candidates raise more money, attract more supporters, and rise in the polls.

[Desertrose]

193. ....while Dean keeps lying?

and while some get so stuck on polls,money and some kind of supporter "count" and completely miss the fact their candidate is not what they think...unless they know he deliberately misleads but don't seem to care...

wow, what a clever concept to pick a "winner"
:eyes:

Peace
DR

PS Here's a clue for you : a little imagination can go a long way in creating and changing the world

[Freddie Stubbs]

287. Dean keeps on gaining support

While other candidates remain in the low single digits. He must be doing something right.

[Clark Can WIN]

164. I must stand with you on this one

What an ugly lie, for Dean to say this. His stack is getting big enough to make a nice Aggie bonfire.

[Lil Kim]

167. I think

non union printers are cheaper.

[Barbara917]

179. I see two spins of this......

Spin/implication one: Dean is making the point that he campaigned on this issue first. Whether true or not, is this relevant? What is the further implication of this? In order to be the best candidate one must enter the race before all candidates and voice the right meme on the litmus test issue as some sort of proof that you have ownership of that issue? The "I said it first" meme is so childish. It reminds me of my brother laying claim to first dibs on the bathroom when we were children because "he called it first."

Spin/implication two: All the other candidate were for the war until Dean lead the way and showed them the error of their ways. A clear lie.

Now any reasonable person who does not blindly follow Dean no matter what he says and does can see this clear misleading implication in the number two spin. Politicians do it all the time. It's the way they lie without lying. And also shows their paucity of ethics when they do it.

Since I haven't seen any Clark supporters do so I will take this opportunity to remind people of these two written statements of Clark in September and October of 2002. I don't know if those dates are early enough to beat Dean to the "I said it first" contest but since Clark was not a candidate at that time he automatically loses under spin number one. Under spin number two both articles clearly prove the lie.

I hope to God voters do not make voting decisions on such inane points.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/10/timep.iraq.viewpoints.tm/
http://www.house.gov/hasc/openingstatementsandpressreleases/107thcongress/02-09-26clark.html

[ErasureAcer]

182. Dean supporters should be ashamed

that their candidate is misleading voters.

That is something Bush would do, and has done...

Dean supporters...if you have any ounce of good in your heart...you will write Howard Dean himself and tell him to cut the shenanigans or you're leaving his campaign for someone else who has integrity.

[Name removed]

188. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnKleeb]

204. Good god

I try to feel comfortable with Dean but stuff like this is flat out dishonest. Kucinich and the Reverend Sharpton spoke at anti war rallies, I should know for Sharpton, I was there. Kucinich along with Nancy Pelosi led the fight against IWR in the house. This is just disappointing. I wont bash Dean but I hope they reconsider this, its not true. I know my guy isnt doing so hot in the polls but I believe in a little thing called truth.

[Melinda]

211. There's no verifiable evidence that this occurred

Just a blip in a newspaper. No one has come forth to prove this brochure was ever distributed in NH as the article claims. The Dean campaign DID hand out and mail similar brochures in Iowa during the first week of December, but again, there is no verifiable proof that they did this after DK complained in early December.

I have repeatedly asked the location of the lone poster in this thread (whose sig line states he is in Michigan) to no avail - I get no response - and until someone verifies the articles statement, this is just another of a weeks old issue.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

214. So a Dean lie has an expiration date?

I am sorry but I don't forgive the oldest of GW's lies why should I lessen my standards when it comes to Democratic candidates?


TWL

[JohnKleeb]

215. I am not gonna act Dean or Dean supporters over this I promise

but to act like this is nothing is absurd. I am not attacking Dean for this, I am just concerned this. This isnt the only time he claimed he was the lone dog opposed to the war. I wont attack him or his supporters on this, and I still plan to support him if he is the nominee but am I disappointed yes, and I saw the ad, it didnt come out and say all my opponents supported the war, but it sure implied it. Sorry, but this isn't good.

[Melinda]

216. It's the SOS, diffferent day, just stirred up almost 4 weeks later.

and served as happening NOW in NH.. and that's not so. Dean stopped distributing those brochures after DK complained on December 9th.

Look at this thread's title:

"Dean does it AGAIN..."

This threads assertion is false, and all the hysteria that followed is just too friggin much. Darn those pesky FACTS anyway!

:eyes:

[ThirdWheelLegend]

218. Pesky things, facts. They were distributed in the first place.

Really how can you honestly defend Dean on this? It's ok because someone called him on it? What if they are still distributed and it stops 2 days from now, at that point is Dean once again clean?

TWL

[Melinda]

222. edited

Sorry, wrong place to respond

[JohnKleeb]

219. I see if thats the case sorry but if its still going on

I am gonna be still disappointed. It was still wrong IMO that they were passed out in the first place. If he stopped then good, if he didnt, I remain disappointed. Ok if they stopped, I am sorry the way I reacted, but I am disappointed this happened in the first place.

[Melinda]

223. John, I'm NOT defending him, I called him on it weeks ago when it happened

I was assured by the Dean campaign, albeit through email, that those brochures would not be distributed after 12/9, which is why I question this alleged incident.

Furthermore, I have repeatedly asked the one poster in this thread where he is located, and he never replied to me - yet he continued to post on this thread after I asked him twice.

So there is no proof that Dean is at it AGAIN; the article contains nothing to verify its assertions (states "recently mailed" and that's all), and this thread is a just another example of how Dems continue to eat their own.

[JohnKleeb]

224. Fine I am sorry, my mistake in judgement

but this seems to be a recurring incident, for instance in the early summer Dean said, "I am the only major candiate who voted against the war" or something to that degree, it was defended as a mishap, but I think he clearly had his words. Its wrong to me that he did it in the first place and thanks for calling them on it, its just dishonesty, and it seems like Dean claiming he was the lone dog on the war is a recurring event, and it disappoints me. I'll give my support if hes the nominee but this is not making me feel good, even if its resolved for now. Also he is self described straight shooter, its dreadfully obvious that Kucinich was against the war, and in fact I could argue was equally adamant if not more so in opposition, he was the one with Pelosi leading the charge against IWR in the house. I dont know when this happened but I think its wrong still. This is my first time hearing about this honest.

[Melinda]

225. It disappointed me too cause I love DK

DK has always had my heart... but Dean tapped my anger. And lemme tell ya, it's not easy being an angry pacifist. ;)

Night John. :hug:

[JohnKleeb]

229. Ok I see

Thanks for givin hell for this but please understand that this alienates people about Dean, I wont leave the party if he is the nominee but you must see that stuff like this makes people myself included feel not so good about him, I still plan to support him if hes the nominee but its hard. Why is this constantly done? I find it dishonest. I dont go on the offensive much, I am a defensive person. I hope this isnt being done because if it is, it just saddens me, just understand please that this does turn me off that this happened in the first place and alienates me. Now if Dean is the nominee, well shoot me silly and call me a Deannie lol, but I will continue to support my candiate through the toughness of it all.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

220. Just donated to Dennis K.'s campaign again...

Thanks Dean for reminding me why I choose the integrity of Kucinich!

:)

TWL

[babzilla]

227. this is a pathetic example of the circular firing squad

If everyone would just take a moment to check the actual contents of Dennis Kucinich's speech that the article is based on, they would see that he is speaking out against the current administrations tendencies to use fear as a weapon.

Please pay attention to and read his real message to you.

Kucinich: Terror alert is scare tactic

Bush trying to instill fear, he says

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/recent2003/122703%5Fkucinich%5F2003.shtml

[ThirdWheelLegend]

228. The posted material to start this thread is about the brochure lie

It came straight from the Kucinich campaign. corporatewhore copied the email directly. I have the same email in my inbox. This thread is about another Dean misrepresentation of his fellow dems. While the article is great and once again another reason why Kucinich is the voice of the people.


TWL

[babzilla]

237. yes it is true that the posted material is about the brochure lie

I have been trying to make the point that once you track down the actual speech that the article is based on (not supplied by the OP incidentally) you will find that DK is more concerned with the Bush lies concerning the war on terrorism than with any brochure which may or may not be put out by the Dean campaign.

I have been trying to make the point that Kucinich is speaking out against the Bush administration in his speeches and that he is trying to tell his supporters that that is what should be foremost in their efforts. If you ask Dennis, I'm sure he would tell you the same.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

239. Yes DK supporters are aware of a multitude of issues.

Especially since Dennis is right on almost 99% of them. That and he can and does address an amazing amount of issues. He also is the strongest critic of Bush. Yes Dean may get more press, but Dennis does more.

The reason we do not stand for lies about our candidate is because we love DK for his honesty, passion and integrity. To have that slighted deserves a serious response.


TWL

[babzilla]

241. so the whole thing is about this?

Where does this gif come from anyway? I ask because I have never seen it in any of the Dean graphics, and I have looked for it. The only place that I have seen it is here, and as I noted in a previous post I did not have permission to view it when I went to the original source. The OP is the one who dug it up, he is a Kucinich poster as far as I can tell, maybe he knows where the serious response should be directed to.

This slight deserves a serious response ehh? Maybe if it is actually from the Dean camp we can talk about it. Perhaps a duel at dawn could settle things.

[HFishbine]

280. About that Gif

It's hosted on an official Kucinich account at Kintera.

[diamondsoul]

That doesn't mean it was the source of it, though.

Kintera is our system for keeping important data and for sending National e-mails out, so it makes sense the image file coming from the e-mail would show that as the host account.

That's why I wanted to see the whole flyer myself.

[HFishbine]

311. I agree

The point is simply that the graphic is not something that a receipient of a flyer scanned and posted, but that it's from the Kucinich campaign. So, it raises the question, if the campaign is hosting a graphic of a portion of the brochure, why can't they make available the whole thing, including post mark.

[diamondsoul]

343. My guess would be

that they didn't get both flyer and envelope, but just the flyer from someone who recieved it. That or possibly someone on staff recieved one, but I most certainly can ask about that and hopefully get the truth.

It also may be that our campaign is trying to or has confirmed it was approved by DFA headquarters and is trying to keep the response to a minimum level. Dennis does not like to launch full on vicious personal attacks, he just wants respect and credit where it's due him.

[diamondsoul]

304. dupe n/t

[babzilla]

246. now I get it , this is the entire lying brochure

funny, I love DK for his honesty, passion & integrity too, but I don't see how this came directly from the Dean campaign.

Someone point me to the source.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

247. that is not the entire thing..

If you read 5thgen's posts. He/she has one of the brochures and it plainly has Paid for by Dean for America on the back.

:shrug:

time for sleep

TWL

[babzilla]

250. yeah well I give up too

if it plainly has Paid for by Dean for America on the back who am I to question this thread.

I'm sure no one but Dean for America has the ability to type those words.

I thought you and others got the full lying electronic brochure email, but you don't have to share if you don't feel the need to.

:shrug:

[ThirdWheelLegend]

271. I am having trouble understanding here

Dean can do no wrong?

Did the TV ad in N.H. that I saw and heard with my own eyes, from a LINK ON DEAN'S WEBSITE, not exist either?

The one where he referred to "All my opponents" and then in the same sentence said "..supported the war". The one that Kucinich called him on and Dean then publicly acknowledged it was wrong and PULLED the ad. Did that one not exist? Since I can't post a streaming video in my little post box does that mean that Kucinich is a liar who is trying to make Dean out to be dishonest?

I am not sure where to go from here, this is and the ad are two related examples of misrepresentations. Ones that Dean knows to be false. Why would he allow them?

Anyway, I don't give up. And I haven't since Kucinich entered the race, because now there is actually a candidate worth fighting for.

TWL

[HFishbine]

282. I think you're missing the point

Dean mistakenly portrayed his opposition to the war in a manner that dissed Kucinich. He was chastised for that, including by e-mail from this supporter. He then corrected course, even giving Kucinish props for his opposition to the war during one of the debates.

Now, this "flyer" story surfaces and the implication is that it's something new -- something Dean has done "again" and yet, mysteriously, there is no evidence, of when this brochure was mailed or where it came from.

Promises to scan and post the brochure have not materialized; direct questions about the date it was mailed posed to posters who said they received it go unanswered.

If it's a new mailing, authorized by the Dean campaign, then shame on Dean. If it's the old mailing, about which many of us have already registered our dissatisfaction, which Dean has attoned for, and which the Kucinich campaign is trying to revive as a "new" issue, then shame on Kucinich.

[diamondsoul]

308. I think you may have misunderstood.

I haven't received a copy of the flyer from Dean's campaign myself. I sent 5thGenDemocrat my snail-mail address and asked him to send me a copy of the flyer and the envelope it came in with post-mark showing the date.

It will take a couple of days for me to get it via regular mail, and even then I'm sure you all won't be willing to accept that as clear proof of its origin. I wouldn't either, if I were you, so that's not an issue. I trust my own judgement, and I'm willing to share what I recieve with everyone in this thread for you to come to your own conclusions.

I'm still doing further checking into things here, and honestly there's no way I'm going to get the truth from the Dean campaign as a titled Kucinich vlunteer. (I'm not syaing they'll lie, but if there's something incriminating they certainly aren't going to tell me.) Once again, if I absolutely find no evidence to link this thing to Dean's National HQ, I will send him $50 and post a public apology, but it won't be until I'm satisfied that I've checked thoroughly.

[HFishbine]

347. On a related note

I just caught a Dean speech on CSpan. It was from Sunday in Ames, Iowa. When he got to discussing Iraq, he said, "Of all the canidates running for president from congress, only Dennis Kucinich voted against the war."

Just thought you might find that interesting.

[dpbrown]

277. Dean supported unilateral invasion in FEB 2003.

Dennis Kucinich gave his world-famous "Prayer for America" speech in February of 2002. That was just six months after the Sept. 11th attacks.

And yet a full year later, Dean was buying the administration's line that the United Nations should be selectively enforcing its resolutions (despite the fact that the US kept the UN toothless and without an independent military). The UN, of course, shouldn't enforce its resolutions against Israel or our "friends" - just Iraq: 50% disarmed of its conventional arms according to "Desert Storm" data, and at least 90% disarmed of its "WMD" according to UNSCOM in 1998, with a median age of just 15 years of age after 10 years of sanctions killed hundreds of thousands.

At the same time, Bush pawn and sycophant Richard Perle was crowing about the death of the UN.

And convicted felon Negroponte was strongarming the UN - but the UN was resisting, and the biggest demonstrations in the history of the world were erupting against the planned, illegal invasion.

And despite this atmosphere of loathing for the role of the UN, Dean supporters are now clinging to the thin, frail thread of Dean's "qualifier" than the UN "choosing" not to enforce its resolutions as the straw man standing in the way of Dean's complete, unilateral, and unjustified support for an illegal, preemptive invasion of Iraq.

Not only did Dean favor unilateral preemptive war on Iraq with that "qualifier", this comparison fails because at no time did Dennis Kucinich flog the illegal invasion with or without fake qualifiers attached.

Dennis is right. If Dean wants to lie about his own record, that's his own business, but when he wants to lie about Kucinich's, then that's our business - and it should be the business of everyone.

Dean -

* a man with secret governor records different from George Bush.
* a man with secret energy meetings different than Dick Cheney.
* a man who favored unilateral preemptive war but with a qualifier.

No, thanks.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[no name no slogan]

281. THIS is what DK supporters are up against

This is a repost from a similar (locked) thread-- by request:

==============================

Here's the text of an email a local Dean organizer sent to one of our supporters, after our supporter asked him about his piece of literature. I have changed the names to protect the guilty.


xxxx,

I don't think Dennis should take umbrage. He's not running for
president. Sharpton has 10 times the likelihood of being the nominee
that Dennis has...sorry.

Kucinich is misrepresenting himself if he thinks he's running for
president. Senator or Governor would be terrific, but he's not going
to be anywhere close to winning anything presidential, as you well
know.

Kucinich has spent $2 million for every % in the national polls.
That is a waste of money - he's going to have a squeaker running for
his congressional seat, and he should be concentrating on that!

Dean has spent $350,000 / % . That's the economy of having a
resonant message.

xxxxx



...and people wonder why some DK supporters "have it in for" Dean?

We face this kind of demeaning bu!!$h!7 from them on an almost daily basis. Now, apparently, DK is not running for president-- even though he was DRAFTED to run by thousands of supporters after his "Prayer for America" speech in 2002.

THIS IS WHY IT IS STILL WRONG for Dean and his supporters to publish materials that contain lies and falsehoods about the other candidates in this race. And this is why so many of us are STILL ANGRY about the TV ads, too.

I see a pattern occurring here within the Dean campaign. And it's not an honest one, either.

[Desertrose]

289. the arrogance is reminescent of someone....

arrogance without a reason ...sure does remind me of that feller currently using the WH as his ...

I can't understand how anyone who supports Dean can't at some level see what is going on...its the same damn sense of entitlement that * has ... and I do not want another SOB in the white house like the one we got.

Where is the change? Where is the difference??

I see the best & biggest chance for a turn around is with Dennis Kucinich ...it sure isn't with Dean....

Peace
DR

Edited to add...
isn't it frustrating to have to wade through the long threads? Does it discourage anyone from reading or posting on this one as opposed to the one that was locked. Just curious....

[blm]

300. Dean hasn't campaigned honestly in over a year.

There's no surprise to me. I started pointing out his dishonesty last January and I see he only increases his hubris with the propping up he receives from those supporters who don't care to hold him accountable for those lies because they think he has teflon.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA....wait till they see how that teflon holds up now that Rove feels certain Dean is the nominee.

[Kahuna]

312. So true, BLM... You were on to him from the beginning...

Even when I didn't know about his true character he gave me the creeps. Now he makes me wanna :puke:

[oasis]

314. Pity those who will be at DU doing damage control for Mr. Gaffe-a-Day Dean

during the general election.

[redqueen]

335. That's what I'm thinking as well.

Sheesh... and to think some of them complain about having to deal with this now, from us.

[mouse7]

345. Rage on, angry little ninja

The bloody blades of campaign extermination are whirring inches beneath your feet.

[ErasureAcer]

294. I hope Dean is not president

I can't stand the guy.

He distorts truth, flip flops, and plain out lies just like GW Bush.

This is unacceptable he will not get my vote under any circumstance...

replacing lies for lies isn't worth voting for.

Bush can have the election, nominate his conservative SC judges...I don't give a fuck...

If Dean is the best the Democrats can come up they deserve to lose.

I seriously hate Howard Dean.

This country is fucked either way.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

316. The man has no scruples - that's all I have to say....

n/t

[ThirdWheelLegend]

344. Mods can we get a part 2 for this thread...?

All the related threads are getting locked because they are 'similar'. Yet this one has grown so much that now no one wants to wade through 350+ posts.

Is it possible that we can have a part 2?

Oh and kick :)


TWL