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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 06:46 PM
Original message
Israel, Palestinians OK Gaza cease-fire
JERUSALEM — Israel and the Palestinians agreed to a cease-fire Saturday to end a five-month Israeli military offensive in the Gaza Strip and the firing of rockets by Palestinian militants into the Jewish state, officials from both sides said.

The cease-fire was to go into effect at 6 a.m. Sunday (11 p.m. Saturday EST), both sides said.

The agreement was reached after Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas telephoned Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert late Saturday to tell him that all Palestinian militant groups had pledged to stop rocket attacks into Israel, Olmert spokeswoman Miri Eisin said.

She said Abbas asked that Israel reciprocate by stopping its military operations in Gaza and withdrawing its forces, and Olmert agreed.

Nabil Abu Rdeneh, an Abbas spokesman, later confirmed that Palestinian armed factions _ including those allied to the Hamas militant group _ had agreed to stop their military activities in Gaza and reinstate a truce reached in Egypt in February 2005.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4359599.html
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is great news...
How does it differ from the proposal Israel rejected a few days ago? Just curious. I've read many news reports and both state Hamas agreed to stopping the kassams.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I couldn't spot any difference...
I suspect pragmatism may have won out in the long run.....
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Ok. I thought I was missing something. nt
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. According to The Jerusalem Post
"Israel accepted a Palestinian cease-fire to go in effect Sunday morning, and will stop military operations in Gaza in return for an end to all Palestinian violence, including rocket fire, tunneling, and suicide bombers, the Prime Minister's Office announced Saturday night."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378480111&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

It seems that the difference is that the cease-fire will include all Palestinian violence as opposed to just the Qassam fire. (Although that is not made clear in the statement from the PRC quoted in the same article: Abu Mujahed, a spokesman for the Popular Resistance Committees, a Hamas ally, said, "We have set 6 a.m. tomorrow morning to stop firing rockets toward Zionist towns in our occupied land in return for a mutual cessation of the aggression committed against our people.")


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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Thanks for that.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. More from the NY Times
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Amazing
The difference was blatant and obvious. If you really couldn't see it, you need to reconsider the sources you are using to get information on the subject.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 10:29 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 10:33 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 07:27 AM
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
33. Of course it made a difference
You need to read more widely. The phoney Hamas offer was widely reported, and the usual suspects here blamed Israel for rejecting it, and then claimed there was no difference between that and the offer of a FULL ceasefire, which Israel said it was prepared to accept.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Try reading the news
Now the Palestinians agree to stop ALL their aggression based from Gaza instead of the bogus offer to just stop the missiles while continuing everything else. Meanwhile Israel was expected to stop all defensive measures. Israel rightly rejected this absurd offer.

By standing firm, they forced the Palestinians to agree to a real ceasefire. Now let's see if they honor it.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-25-06 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I love it. Palestinians are to stop all of their aggression and Israel is to stop all
of their defense. Linguistics class anyone?
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. pretty simple...for those who know the history....
its only a year old: israel left, palestenains immediatly launched 30+ kassams....israel at first didnt even respond, the kassams kept up and then the responses came:

1) israel left
2) kassams launched
3) israel responsed

_________

check the dictionary for the defintion of aggression and defense, its all there.

_______

now the palestenias are back to were they were a year ago, no IDF in gaza, the question now is, will they or wont they shoot kassams?
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. My dictionary appears to be different from yours. Is there a special one Israel uses?
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. heres a challange for you...
Edited on Sun Nov-26-06 01:40 AM by pelsar
explain how the list above is not wrong, the sequence of events.....

here i'll repeat:
1) israel left gaza
2) kassams launched
3) israel responsed
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. A question for you, pelsar...
Edited on Sun Nov-26-06 01:43 AM by Violet_Crumble
Considering the ceasefire covers all violence, can you explain exactly how the killing of those Palestinians civilians recently was in any way defensive?

on edit: It shits me no end that a rare positive moment in the conflict is turned into Palestinians = Bad/Israel = Good crap by another poster and that you guys have picked it up and ran with it...
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. which civilians...
lots were killed.... (the latest?)
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. The ones in Beit Hanoun...
Mind you, it was silly of me to ask and actually buy into the good/bad, aggression/defensive, victim/attacker thing that you guys have bought into in this thread. Can't we just be happy that there's a ceasefire and hope that it holds?
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. cease fire...I would love it.....i'm skeptical....
Edited on Sun Nov-26-06 02:23 AM by pelsar
but make no mistake...i'm hoping it holds (and im sure there are those on both sides that hope it doesnt..... and need any excuse to start up again.....)


beit chanon: As far as I understand it was just one more screw up on the part of the IDF, be it equipment or human:


do you how many times my unit has shot a mortar and someone left too many "rings' on and it overshot the target by 50 meters?

how many times someone shot an anti tank rocket..it missed and then travels another 100meters until it hits something else?

how many bullets DONT hit their target (most)...and they keep on going

how many times looking through a night vision scope/binoculars i would try to tell if the guy in "the corner in the shadows" is carrying a broomstick, a TV camera or a weapon?...zillions (and have been surprised at how wrong i was when he stepped out)

how many times we received faulty equipment?....that doesnt always work?.....almost a standard.

i hate to ruin the IDFs reputation as some military force that only does what it intends....but its simply not true.
_____

a short story:
before the pullout a little palestenian girl approached a base and was shot with the kill confirmed by the commander (a druze)-you remember

a day or two later a similar scenario happend, this time the base commander brought the girl in (against the "rules'), emptied her backpack (just books) and questioned why she did it...she wanted to be famous like the other girl, he then called the UN who picked her up......(this commander was born in sweden-his father is a friend of mine).

both girls walked in clearly marked "free fire zone", both were identified. The difference was in the commanders, their attitude and education.....

thats also part of the IDF, personal reactions based on ones subculture, how quick the individual soldier is on the trigger.....
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. How the killing of civilians in Beit Hanoun could be considered defensive
Edited on Sun Nov-26-06 03:32 AM by oberliner
If it is true that there had been a Qassam rocket attack launched from near the area where the Israeli shells fell then I do think it is fair to characterize that IDF attack as being one of self-defense.

Certainly one could argue that the response to that attack was excessive (even a violation of international law), and of course the deaths of innocent civilians is a horrible tragedy, but that does not mean that the attacks were not defensive in nature.

I cite Ibrahim Gambari, the UN Under-Secretary General for Political Affairs who in addressing this issue at the Securiy Council this week said:

"This month’s events highlighted once again the fact that the conflict could not be resolved through force, he said. The international community fully acknowledged Israel’s right to self-defence as long as it was exercised in accordance with international law. The incursions in Beit Hanoun, however, had produced a huge number of non-combatant deaths, revealing a manifestly excessive use of force. There had been, moreover, a subsequent increase in rocket fire into Israel, even though the stated purpose of the operation had been to stop such attacks. Such actions intensified anger against Israel, both among Palestinians and throughout the Middle East, exacerbating existing resentment over the continued occupation, with apparently no end in sight. In light of those results, it was hard to see the effectiveness of such operations. Palestinian rocket fire, which was legally and morally wrong, was also counterproductive. The occupation of Palestinian territory would not be ended through indiscriminate attacks against Israeli civilians."

Source: http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2006/sc8872.doc.htm

I agree with your sentiments that we should all agree that the fact that there is a cease-fire is something to be happy about.

Let's hope it brings a lasting peace.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. Yes, let's hope the Palestinians don't violate it... again
And once again I point out, Israel tries to warn civilians in advance of attacks and when a mistake happens they express regret and immediately try to find out who was responsible and what went wrong. Palestinians TARGET civilians and when they succeed they celebrate the death of innocent Israelis. The contrast is so blatant that one must be willfully blind to avoid it.

BTW, missed your posted condemning the Palestinian suicide grandmother who fortunately only blew up herself and failed in her mission to kill and severely maim Israelis. Which thread is it in?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #24
37. Since this is the first cease-fire between Israel and the Palestinians, how can it be 'again'?
Unlike this time, Israel has not agreed to participate in previous cease-fires and as such it was no surprise they fell apart. Is there anything you don't blame the Palestinians for or defend Israel for doing? Everything's so utterly black and white simplistic when it comes to yr views...

btw, I dont' know what I said if anything about the suicide bomber. If yr so fascinated, here's a helping hand. Go use the search function and try to stick to the topic of this thread...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #37
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 10:48 AM
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. Take your own advice
You've just proven my point.

Sheesh.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. I don't see how killing civilians while they sleep is defending Israel.
The issue is Israel uses their right to defend themselves to excuse the inexcusable, such as Beit Hanoun.

And the numbers of casulties just don't back up the defense claim.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. surprise!
didnt answer the challange......

the number of dead/wounded was not relevant to the question...now was it.....

and the simplisted: "you killed more therefore you are wrong" has been shown to have no value in terms of determing right or wrong in a war.....one keeps bringing that up since there is little else to use.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #21
31. Please.
Your question had NOTHING to do with my post. You can veer off topic, change the topic and deflect all you want, but you can't force me to answer unrelated questions to make a silly point. And your arrogance does you no favors.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. you questioned the use of the words:
Edited on Sun Nov-26-06 12:07 PM by pelsar
aggressive vs defensive.

i chose the simple sequence of events to explain and then asked you to somehow show that its wrong.

israel left gaza.....palestenians try to kill israelis over the intl border...that translates in them being the aggressors.

israeli fired only in response......and maintained that if they stop shooting so too will israel...thats called defense.
___________________________________

fact is this attempt at a cease fire only shows how true it is: the Palestinians say they will stop shooting and israel is already out of gaza.
all they have to do is not attack, not be the aggressor and no more shooting.

____________________________________

that shows the simple facts: without Palestinians missiles on sederot, this whole last year in gaza could have been one of peace and growth for the Palestinians in gaza, we all know that, that makes them the aggressors.

hopefully they figured it out, even if those at the DU havent.

whether I'm arrogent or not, you have always had a hard time backing up your claims.....
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. To the contrary
Israel does not try to "excuse" the death of civilians. They try to avoid them. And when things go wrong they try to figure out why so it won't happen again. It is your beloved Palestinians who TARGET civilians on purpose, and celebrate when they succeed.

This has been noted over and over. Can't understand why you keep making false statements about Israeli intent.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #25
39. Here's an example of where the IDF has "excused" the death of civilians...
The problem with making such absolutist statements such as yrs is that rarely are things so absolute in real life. of course the IDF has excused the death of civilians. They're not supermen as some here seem to believe....

KILLING THE FUTURE: Children in the line of fire

Khalil Ibrahim al-Mughrabi. On 7 July 2001 three children were shot by IDF sniper fire as they were flying kites and playing soccer in an open space near the border fence at Rafah. Khalil Ibrahim al-Mughrabi, age11, was killed by a high-velocity bullet in the head. Ibrahim Kamel Abu Sussain, age 10, and 13-year-old Suleiman Turki Abu Rijal were also shot and both sustained serious injuries in the abdomen and in the testicles, respectively. The shots came from an IDF post about 800 metres away, and the boys were in a large, open space. According to testimonies given to Amnesty International by Ibrahim Kamel Abu Sussain and by other children who were present at the time of the incident, there were no disturbances or clashes in the area at that time. The IDF claimed that there had been rioting and throwing of fragmentation grenades in the area at the time, but confidential IDF records showed that this was untrue. On 8 November 2001, the IDF informed the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem that it had decided not to initiate an investigation of the incident because there was no suspicion of criminal behaviour by the soldiers. However, a file was attached to the IDFs response, apparently in error, which contained internal records of the IDFs operational de-briefings and the opinions of the IDF Southern Command Judge Advocate and of the Chief Military Prosecutor. These documents, which have been made public by B'Tselem, show that the IDF, in spite of the evidence, decided not to order a Military Police investigation and cleared the soldiers who killed Khalil al-Mughrabi and injured the two other children, and that in its response to B’Tselem the IDF deliberately presented an incorrect version of the incident.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engMDE020052002?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES\ISRAEL/OCCUPIED+TERRITORIES

There's more examples such as this one, btw...



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. Deleted message
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nicoll Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
26. Can the recently agreed ceasefire between Habbas & Olmert work
Edited on Sun Nov-26-06 04:02 AM by nicoll
Yesterday in the news it was said that The Palestinian leader (Habbas) and the Israeli prime minister (Olmert) had agreed a cease fire. Habbas was said to have got agreement from the different factions of the Palestinians for them to stop firing rockets in to Israel form the Gaza Strip. Can Habbas really control the militants in his own people?

Lets say for argument sake he does this and all rockets or suicide attacks and tunneling from the Gaza Strip in to Israel stop. Then there is a prisoner exchange between the two sides (captured Israeli soldier and Palestinian prisoners held by Israel).I want people to see beyond this and deal with the hypothetical possible negotiations between the two sides if Habbas can really stop all militant attacks from the Gaza Strip into Israel. The problem then arises about the West Bank. Habbas wants all of the land awarded to the Palestinians in 1967 to be returned to Palestinian control. Israel wants to keep a number of it's settlements in the West Bank - the amount they want to keep equates to approx 40% of the West Bank I believe. If this the case it is 40/100 * 5860 = 2344sq km of land that Israel want to keep from the West Bank. Does this mean there should be a reciprocal exchange of land. If Israel wants to keep the 40% of the West Bank where its settlements are (2344sq km) then should they give the Palestinian authority the same amount of land somewhere else? This goes to heart of any negotiation between the two. There can not be any more increase in overall territory of the original partitioned land for Israel and any reduction of Palestinian land. You have to keep the amount of land held by the two the same as it was in 1967 for it to be fair and have a chance of working. This means that Israel should not increase its territory any more than 20,770sq km and the Palestinians should not have any less than (5860 + 360) = 6220sq km of land. I have not included the Golan Heights into this equation has this is a territory dispute between Israel and Syria. You have to some kind of resolution to the land deputes of the West Bank between the two sides where both are content with the deal for it to work. This is where the real deadlock between the two sides is and compromise is required for there to be any real peace.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Palestine, like Iraq, is at the mercy of Israel and its leaders.
Edited on Sun Nov-26-06 04:02 AM by shance
We are experiencing something very similarly here.

Palestine is being persecuted and barraged with weaponry and demonized like those countries that the Bush Administration has claimed to be terrorists.

They aren't terrorists that I can see, they just want peace and their own land back, which is something that the Bush Administration and apparently the Israeli goverment do not want as well.

When we will stop the "ownership" and illegal overthrow of property which does not belong to us?

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Waaay simplistic
and overly generalized. Most Palestinians, I'm convinced, do want only peace and control of their own land, but to deny that their are Palestinian terrorists is ridiculous. There are indeed Palestinians who practice terrorism. Or don't you think that suicide bombings targetting civilians, or firing Qassams into civilian enclaves, classifies? What about those who openly advocate an end to Israel by any means?
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #29
54. And let's go further...
Where are the Palestinian LEADERS willing to take a chance on peace? Arafat was a thief who robbed his own people and then further betrayed them by failing to conclude a peace deal with Israel. Abbas is a coward unable to do anything about the terrorists in his midst, although he seems to be doing the right thing at last with this new ceasefire.

And Hamas? Hamas flatly refuses to recognize Israel, explicitly rejects ALREADY concluded agreements, and then thinks a "hudna" (a ceasefire allowing them to rearm) can be negotiated on that basis.

Israeli leaders like Begin and Sharon were able to rise above their past records and make peace. Where is the Palestinian leader brave enough to do so? I wish one would arise. Anyone serious about peace in the region wishes one would arise.

And, as a footnote, your answer was indeed evenhanded in the face of an absolutely ridiculous whitewash of Palestinian terrorism. So I will make an effort to continue to separate you out from those here who are just acting in a kneejerk fashion.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. How are suicide bombers and missiles targeting...
...civilians not the work of terrorists?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. What article is this linked from? nt
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. your too much in to the math
your ignoring areas of "high worth"...i.e. holy places, access to etc.

the middle east is governed far more by its "holy places and the emotion attached than the land per sea. All land is not worth the same, ask any real estate broker. You have to accept that you western "rational" outlook is not entirely appropriate here...then you might get an idea of whats going on.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. True, but...
...it must be noted that the holy sites in Jerusalem have been most secure under Israeli control, with the various faiths controlling their own sites.

I know I don't have to tell you how Jewish sites were desecrated under Arab -- well, let's use their word -- occupation.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. Your premise is fllawed
No land was "awarded to the Palestinians in 1967."

Come back when you've learned something of the actual history of the region.

Here's a big hint: the 1967 borders were simply where the defeated Arab armies (which had been trying to destroy Israel) finally stopped in 1948. There's nothing sacred about those borders, and they will not be the final borders should the Palestinians finally agree to negotiate with Israel.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. Deleted message
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. You need to learn some history
The land was partitioned in 1948. The Arabs -- there were no "Palestnians" then -- rejected the partition and started a war to destroy Israel. They failed. This led to Egypt seizing Gaza and Jordan seizing the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Those were the 1967 borders.

There has been no sovereign state in Gaza or the West Bank in more than two thousand years. Now if and when the Palestinians are ready to recognize Israel, forswear terrorism, and sit down and negotiate, the obvious solution will be a two state settlement which will include Gaza and some verison of the West Bank. Israel has previously been willing to trade land within pre-1967 Israel in exchange for those portions of the West Bank they want to retain. That is to be negotiated.

The idea that there is a "Palestine" with set borders flies in the face of history.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #43
78. Technicality
The idea of a sovereign state is a very modern and Western one which entered into the International diplomatic language at the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648 where the idea of a Nation-State was formalized. Much of the original idea of territorial control as defining the sovereign status has yielded more to a sociological control where group identity and loyalty play more of an increasing role such as what is happening in Iraq today. Even so, only one sovereign state prior to 1948 to lay claim to Palestine, and that was the Ottoman Empire.

Also, the idea of the Palestinians not being somehow not relevent because they didn't exist as a recognized entity prior to 1948 is also wrong, but misleading. Consider the fact the British included them as a distinct body in the referendum shows they were viewed as political peers to the Jewish settlers and thus a competent sociological group. The idea the negative vote on the referendum was about how they viewed themselves is absurd, the negative vote on the referendum was a rejection not of their self-identity, but rather a rejection of the partition agreement and represents one significant statement by the Palestinian people of a unique identity and comes at a time prior to the establishment of the Israeli state.

L-

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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-28-06 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. In fact....
no one was arguing that there was a distinct group called "Palestinians" until the 1960s.

Further, the British Empire laid claim to the what you call "Palestine" after the Ottoman Empire.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-28-06 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Not a relevent point
Edited on Tue Nov-28-06 01:00 PM by Lithos
Besides the fact that the term was used as a means of identification long before the 1960's, the real statement you are trying to refute is whether they were considered a political and/or sociological entity prior to 1948 which is easily proven not only by the writings of Buber and Herzl, but also by the fact that the British and the League of Nations were consulting and negotiating with them on a basis which easily exceeded the attention they gave to the Jewish groups.

Even so, if you want to quibble the non-issue of the term "Palestinian", there exists:

The establishment of the Nationalistic Newspaper in the early 1900's with the name Palestinian.
In his book on the 1956 campaign, Moshe Dayan refers to the Palestinian Fedayaheen as being a problem from 1948 onward and references Egyptian documents which use the term). There are of course many other examples. I just picked two.


As for the British Empire, nope. The British were given a Mandate to administer, not to claim Palestine. They had to give yearly reports to the League of the status of the Mandate.

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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-28-06 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. A few problems with this . .
Edited on Tue Nov-28-06 02:27 PM by msmcghee
"Consider the fact the British included them as a distinct body in the referendum shows they were viewed as political peers to the Jewish settlers and thus a competent sociological group."

It seems this could be a desire on the part of the British to have someone to speak with on behalf of the Arabs - for whom the Brits certainly reserved a soft place in their hearts. The Jewish community was showing their well-developed ability to organize politically and I think the Brits knew that if the Arabs didn't present a politically organized united force against them, they would suffer the consequences. From my reading, I suspect a lot of the "organizing" attributed to the Arabs (other than anti-Jew organizing) on the regional level certainly, was in the minds of the Brits in the form of wishful thinking.

Of course, some real historic evidence of that nationalistic organizing, like political rallies calling for a Palestine state, speeches by those who wanted to head this state, etc. would help.

"The idea the negative vote on the referendum was about how they viewed themselves is absurd, the negative vote on the referendum was a rejection not of their self-identity, but rather a rejection of the partition agreement and represents one significant statement by the Palestinian people of a unique identity and comes at a time prior to the establishment of the Israeli state."

I'd agree that the vote was not a statement of national identity. But certainly you won't dismiss the power of Pan-Arabism that was sweeping the Arab Middle East at the time. The Arab League said that they spoke for the Arabs in the territories, not the "Palestinians". Arab League newspapers implored the Arabs there to leave rather than accept any Jewish state in their midst. The Arab League promised to destroy the nascent state of Israel. The don't think the Arab League ever said a word about creating a new state of Palestine in its place. Those Arabs who left and ended up in the refugee camps of those Pan-Arab states were not leaving Israel as the first step along the way to some "Palestinian statehood". They left because the League told them they had to or they would be accepting the Partition, and with it the State of Israel.

Palestine was a place, not a state. The place was called Palestine and the Arab people who lived there were called Palestinians as a convenience of terminology by news organizations. I have seen no evidence that they ever expected to end up as other than citizens of Egypt, Jordan or perhaps some emerging Pan-Arab empire.

Your opposite opinions on this are interesting.

The most critical part of my reply I think is my counter-statement that,

"Those Arabs who left and ended up in the refugee camps of those Pan-Arab states were not leaving Israel as the first step along the way to some "Palestinian statehood".

It's possible that I have just had my mind closed to other possibilities. I'm sure I have read that the Arab League members actually were strongly opposed to any notion of Palestinian statehood. I think I could go a long way toward accepting your premise if you could show some evidence that those Arabs who left actually believed that an autonomous Palestinian state was to be their reward.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-28-06 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. Notable Palestinian political activities.
Edited on Tue Nov-28-06 10:40 PM by Lithos
1899 - Palestinian Mayor of Jerusalem pleaded with the Chief Rabbi of France to "Leave Palestine alone".
1907 - Palestinian representatives go to Constantinople to plead for the implementation of restrictions against Jewish immigration.
1908 - Founding of the newspaper "Al-Karmil"
1911 - Haram al-Sharif incident where a British archaeological group helped by several Ottoman officials were discovered excavating under the Dome of the Rock; this prompted significant political outrage by Palestinian groups against the Ottoman government.
- Founding of the newspaper, "Filastin" (Palestine)
1919 - First Palestinian National Congress meets and sends two people to the Paris Peace talks demanding Independence. There would be 6 more up Congresses up to 1935.
1920 - French conquer Syria. Most Nationalists start thinking and talking in terms of Palestine, not "Greater Syria". The Second Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations which at the first Congress (1919) declared its position for a combined Greater Syria now proclaimed its support for an Independent Palestine.
1921 - Founding of the Palestinian Arab Action Committee by Jamal al-Husayni
- Foundation of the Palestinian Communist Party later evolved through various steps into today's PPP.
1922 - Founding of the Supreme Muslim Council by the British as a parallel group to the Jewish settler groups.
1925 - Founding of the Palestinian Arab Workers Society by Sami Taha
1934 - Founding of the National Defence Party by Raghib al-Nashashibi
1935 - Founding of the National Bloc by Abd al-Latif Salah
- Sheikh Qassam decided that the diplomatic approch of Grand Mufti Husseini was not succeeding launched a series of attacks. He became the first significant Palestinian "hero" upon his death in 1935 which also provided the spark for the Great Arab Revolt in Palestine from 1936-39;
- Founding of the Palestinian Arab Party by Jamal al-Husayni as a successor of the Palestinian Arab Action Committee
- Founding of the Reform Party by Husayin al-Khalidi in Palestine on 23 June 1935.
1936 - Founding of the "Arab Higher Committee", a shadow parliament/organization of Palestinian parties.
1944 - Musa Alami was elected by Palestinian political parties to represent Palestine at the Arab Congress. It was his recommendations which provided much of the language and thought for the Arab League's non-military actions against Israel. These included the fund for the development of Palestine, lobbying for embargos against Jewish goods from Palestine,
1947 - Husseini (Grand Mufti) made the case for Palestinian independence at the Arab League meeting

1948+ saw a different phase. One notable example was the foundation of the All Palestine Congress in 1948 which served as a shadow government.

The general ideas are that prior to 1920, Nationalism was generally pan-Arab or for a Greater Syria. However, the issues of Jewish colonization and perceived excessive Western influence and meddling in Palestine helped spark the first major Palestinian political efforts and self-identity. 1917-1920 saw tremendous changes through the Balfour Agreement the failure and perceived sell-out by Faisal, and the French conquest of Syria. By 1920, Palestinian identity supplanted that of the pan-Syrian one. The foundation of Palestinian political parties and the first Palestinian Congresses begins at this time. Another wave of political activities began in 1935 when a reactionary movement started against those advocating diplomacy with the British. This ultimately resulted in the 1936-39 revolt and the 1939 White Paper which altered the Balfour Agreement. (In effect, the Palestinians politically forced a change to the Balfour Agreement - again another example of Palestinian identity).

As for the Arab League, the issue was not one of Palestinian Independence, but rather as to which group should have preeminence as various countries vied to nominate people who were favorable to them.

"Those Arabs who left and ended up in the refugee camps of those Pan-Arab states were not leaving Israel as the first step along the way to some "Palestinian statehood".

Those who left were trying to avoid the fighting and had no intention of being gone long. The general perception was that the Arab Armies would have won militarily and they would return fairly soon to their homes.

The main reason Israel exists now is not due to any moral superiority, but because they were more prepared to fight. Nothing wrong with that at all, it is just a fact and actually quite common for the time period (ex: the separation of Pakistan and India has many parallels in terms of how the refugee situation occurred.). However, discussions which try to deny a Palestinian identity are only trying to claim a false sense of morality about what happened. They also are part and parcel of the language used by ultra-Nationalists such as Lieberman and terrorists such as Kahane who rely on such false morality to help justify their outrage and their agendas.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. I just got back from a trip to find your reply.
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 12:25 PM by msmcghee
Thanks for taking the time with it. It's really a pleasure to have an actual discussion with someone I disagree with here - rather than the usual insults.

You start by listing several events starting in 1899 and leading up to 1948. I would agree that there were many political events that occurred on the Arab side during that period. I'm not sure that they show a rising Palestinian nationalism, although some of them probably were in that category. Those practicing politics are seldom clear about their intentions - especially when they are being judged by world opinion and have hidden agendas. Many of them could have been more motivated by a hatred of the Jews who were showing up in ever increasing numbers. Their words generally supports that notion.

One of those examples you offered, "1922 - Founding of the Supreme Muslim Council by the British as a parallel group to the Jewish settler groups." - seems to support my premise that "It seems this could be a desire on the part of the British to have someone to speak with on behalf of the Arabs - for whom the Brits certainly reserved a soft place in their hearts."

I have no doubt the Brits wanted to see a better organized nationalistic movement from the Palestinian Arabs. It was their mandate, after all. The question is how real was that movement among Arab Palestinians. I grant that such feelings existed. I doubt they were the primary motivating factor for most events of the day.

Your last entry before 1948 was, "1947 - Husseini (Grand Mufti) made the case for Palestinian independence at the Arab League meeting".

This brings some questions to mind.

a) If there was a significant nationalistic movement among Arab Palestine, why was it necessary for the Grand Mufti, their nominal leader, to "make a case" to the major Arab political body at the time? It seems that whatever Palestinian Arab national movement existed, the Arab League was a major obstacle, not the UN.

b) Why was this case being made by a person whose motivations were far more anti-Jewish than they were pro - state of Palestine. This was a guy who had written Goering imploring him to keep the Jews from emigrating because they would cause problems for the Reich (and the world) if they were not kept in places (Europe extermination camps) where they could be better "dealt with".

The Grand Mufti was no Palestinian "Nelson Mandella" yearning for self-determination for his people. The UN had already determined that his people (as well as Jewish survivors of the Reich) deserved self-determination and land of their own in the Palestine territories. The only question was where to draw the borders.

These facts tell me that the most important concern among Palestinian Arabs was that a legal Jewish entity would possibly exist in the ME - not whether Palestinians would have their own state.

Next, you said that, "Those who left were trying to avoid the fighting and had no intention of being gone long. The general perception was that the Arab Armies would have won militarily and they would return fairly soon to their homes."

I generally agree with that. The real question seems to be - when they returned, did they expect their homes would be part of a new state of Palestine or part of Jordan, Syria or Egypt.

My reading of history is that the latter was the case. In fact, during the War for Independence, Israel pushed those advancing armies back and away from the new state of Israel where the Arab armies then laid claim to what remained - in what would have been the state of Palestine had the Arabs accepted the Partition. At that time, rather than helping the displaced Palestinians establish their proposed Palestinian state in that territory, most were relegated to refugee camps - where any thoughts of statehood could be more easily quashed.

The last thing the Arab League wanted was another Arab state in the territory of Palestine. And I don't think the evidence shows that many Palestinians expected otherwise.

Finally, one must look at the primary evidence. The Palestinians had their state. Just as the Jews had theirs. The Partition Plan simply allocated borders. It was up to each side to establish their state within those borders. The British had done a lot over their thirty year mandate to help the Arabs prepare for that day.

One has to ask, why the Arab League - with the assent of the vast majority of Palestinian Arabs - thought that killing Jews and destroying their new state was more important than establishing the workings of the new Arab state of Palestine.

Their cry was not that the new Arab state of Palestine was not big enough. Their cry was to push the Jews into the Sea. And if that had been accomplished, I have not seen any compelling evidence that the Palestinian Arabs there expected the Arab League armies to turn that liberated land over to them - or even that they were overly concerned about that.

******************************************

I notice that you bring up a question of moral entitlement. I never claimed nor do I believe that Israel is there because of any "moral superiority". Israel is there because for the first time in history - a major question of entitlement to land (national domain) was settled by international deliberation rather than by the size or superiority of the armies involved. Israel (reluctantly) accepted those UN established borders at the time - that's why Israel is there.

The Arabs rejected those UN established borders at the time and Arab leaders within the territories continue to reject them. That's why, to this day, Palestine is not a state and remains a territory.

What happened after Israel accepted the UN Partition is subject to moral judgment. The Arabs rejected the proposed borders and attempted to destroy Israel. They attacked a legally established sovereign nation in an act of ethnic cleansing. That is immoral. That decision, IMO, makes subsequent border adjustments subject to Israel's need for defense from attack and gives Israel the moral standing to defend those adjustments militarily.

That reality remains today. Until Arab Palestinians (their elected leaders) see statehood as a more important goal than destroying Israel, the only possible solution is for Israel to remain the military occupier of the territories. Fewer Israelis and fewer Arabs will die under that regime than if the Arab Palestinians, still dedicated to the destruction of Israel after 60 some years, were to take control of that territory. IMO the only persons who could possibly disagree with that are those who also yearn for the destruction of Israel.

The recent history of Gaza should be all the proof anyone needs. We are now into the second (recent) test of that theory.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. Edited version of #84.
Trying to read your reply as fairly as possible, I just spent the afternoon re-reading the 83 page chapter, "The Dual Society in Mandatory Palestine" from Tessler's "A History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict". I read it a few years ago but this time a paid more attention.

I now see the question of Palestinian Nationalism as more complex than I did previously. Early on, (1920) it seems there was a strong desire and even an expectation among Palestinians that Palestine should rightfully become part of Greater Syria. They commonly referred to it as Southern Syria. Political and family ties and political clubs were formed to promote that idea which seemed to dominate.

But a desire for Palestinian independence was growing. By the 3rd Arab Congress (1923) such Syrian talk was completely replaced by a focus on Palestinian nationalism. This increased further as Jewish immigration steadily rose and more Arabs sold land to the new arrivals. The idea of a Palestine state took hold completely and was firmly entrenched by 1934.

About this time the Grand Mufti taking advantage of the strong feeling to expand his political power added a strong Muslim focus to the already strong anti-Jew theme of nationalism. Palestinian Arabs (mostly Sunni Muslims) were duly inflamed by this and revolted (the Arab Uprising of 1937-39).

The Uprising consisted of many atrocities mostly Arab against Jews. The Arabs killed mostly Jews. The British killed mostly Arab trying to prevent that. The Haganah and other Jewish self-defense forces expanded their influence and power during this time.The Brits eventually quelled the uprising and by 1939 left the nationalist movement in disarray.

With the Uprising over, as WWII approached, the Brits attempted to appease the Arabs in Palestine and surrounding countries to gain their assistance during the coming conflict. They limited Jewish immigration and caused the deaths of untold Jews who wanted to get out of Germany but were generally unwelcome in other Western nations. During 1932-1939 only 806 Jews made it to England. The US had a more liberal policy but still ony 4621 were admitted during that same period. Palestine was the only real chance of survival for most of Europe's Jews.

After the Uprising the Mufti escapes to Lebanon. This leaves a vacuum that is filled by other Arab states who maintain their position of influence over Palestine during WWII (1939-1945) i.e. no real nationalist movement existed in Palestine during that period. Although by 1945 there were 6 nationalist parties in Palestine none were dominant and all were fragmented.

A theme that seems to pervade the history of Palestine during this pre-Partition period according to Tessler - was that nationalism, while always part of Palestinian aspirations, seemed always to take a back seat to inter-Arab politics and power struggles on one hand - and a growing hatred of Jews on the other. For those reasons and others, it seems that a coherent nationalist movement never really materialized - at least one that was willing and able to set aside parochial, clan and religious differences to pursue the common goal of Palestinian independence and eventually, statehood.

So, rather than say that there was no real nationalist movement, I'd now say that there was. It was just poorly organized and focused. It was never the equal of the Jewish need to finally establish a Jewish state - which literally became a "do or die" task for them by WWII thanks to Adolph Hitler.

The Palestinian Arabs were surrounded by other Arab states which at least offered some support and a chance of a fall-back option for them, which I think perhaps gave them less motivation that the Israelis. The Jews were faced with virtual extinction. The Palestinian Arabs saw nationalism more as a question of politics and divided allegiances by that time.

I see this period as dominated by survival instincts rather than moral issues. I think that all changed in November 29, 1947 when the Partition Plan passed the UN. At that time things became deadly serious for both sides and each side would have to live with the moral decisions they made between then and May 15, of 1948 when the Brits pulled out - of how they would respond to those events.

Specifically I think the decision of Israel to reluctantly accept it - and the Arab decision to try to destroy the new state of Israel, first with a Palestinian army augmented by recruits from surrounding Arab states, and then by the armies of the Arab League itself on May 15 - is where the major moral difference lies and where the stage was set for virtually all the conflict that has come after that fateful date.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #85
86. Mandatory Palestine and the Dual Society
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 03:08 AM by Lithos
Trying to read your reply as fairly as possible, I just spent the afternoon re-reading the 83 page chapter, "The Dual Society in Mandatory Palestine" from Tessler's "A History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict". I read it a few years ago but this time a paid more attention.


Thank you for taking the time. Tessler is a good read. I think he omitted a few things here and there, but the work is solid to a large degree. I would also recommend the following books:

The End of the Palestine Mandate by Roger Louis and Robert Stookey
Uri Milstein's Four volume series "History of the War of Independence"
Kimmerling & Migdal's "The Palestinian People"


I now see the question of Palestinian Nationalism as more complex than I did previously. Early on, (1920) it seems there was a strong desire and even an expectation among Palestinians that Palestine should rightfully become part of Greater Syria. They commonly referred to it as Southern Syria. Political and family ties and political clubs were formed to promote that idea which seemed to dominate.

But a desire for Palestinian independence was growing. By the 3rd Arab Congress (1923) such Syrian talk was completely replaced by a focus on Palestinian nationalism. This increased further as Jewish immigration steadily rose and more Arabs sold land to the new arrivals. The idea of a Palestine state took hold completely and was firmly entrenched by 1934.

About this time the Grand Mufti taking advantage of the strong feeling to expand his political power added a strong Muslim focus to the already strong anti-Jew theme of nationalism. Palestinian Arabs (mostly Sunni Muslims) were duly inflamed by this and revolted (the Arab Uprising of 1937-39).

The Uprising consisted of many atrocities mostly Arab against Jews. The Arabs killed mostly Jews. The British killed mostly Arab trying to prevent that. The Haganah and other Jewish self-defense forces expanded their influence and power during this time.The Brits eventually quelled the uprising and by 1939 left the nationalist movement in disarray.

With the Uprising over, as WWII approached, the Brits attempted to appease the Arabs in Palestine and surrounding countries to gain their assistance during the coming conflict. They limited Jewish immigration and caused the deaths of untold Jews who wanted to get out of Germany but were generally unwelcome in other Western nations. During 1932-1939 only 806 Jews made it to England. The US had a more liberal policy but still only 4621 were admitted during that same period. Palestine was the only real chance of survival for most of Europe's Jews.

After the Uprising the Mufti escapes to Lebanon. This leaves a vacuum that is filled by other Arab states who maintain their position of influence over Palestine during WWII (1939-1945) i.e. no real nationalist movement existed in Palestine during that period. Although by 1945 there were 6 nationalist parties in Palestine none were dominant and all were fragmented.


A couple of differences:

- The idea of pan-Syria fell out of the picture for several reasons including the loss of communication and economic ties to Damascus with the recent French conquest. Plus Faisal's own failures and effective sellout of the Palestinians (consider this from the Palestinian viewpoint) at the Balfour agreement left a very sour note.

- The Grand Mufti did not bring a strong Muslim focus, if anything, he was cautious and tried to play both sides. The person who did this was Sheikh Qassam and his Istiqhal party which was modeled after the Moroccan version. Also, it was not Arab vs. Jew and British vs. Arab. The Haganah/Palmach was quite well known for it's forays into Arab villages. Also, there was quite a bit of infighting with the Arabs over which group was to be dominant. The British for the most part played both sides.

- I don't think it was a matter of hatred of Jews for their religion, but more because they represented a colonizing influence. It was one of the great ironies that Jews who were considered outcasts by the ultra-nationalists of Europe would be considered the epitome of Western colonization.

- Most of the Arab differences were cemented during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39. The moderate Nashashibi family and its allies suffered severely at the hands of those loyal to the Grand Mufti. Thus Per Uri Milstein, by 1947, 80% of all Palestinians generally regarded the Grand Mufti as their nominal leader. So when he spoke of and for Palestinian Independence in 1947 at the Arab League, he was representing the Palestinian people.

- The Arab Revolt ended for a variety of reasons including the growing fatigue for violence and the British negotiation of the White Paper. The British were indeed more inclined to negotiate as they did see the start of WWII. As for Jewish immigration, I read somewhere that while the number appeared to be more limiting, the British actually chose a number which still exceeded the Jewish Agency's capacity to actually absorb new immigrants.

Even before the 1939 paper, the number of Jews who were immigrating to Palestine/Israel were severely constrained by the logistics of Palestine, but also by the fact that Palestine was not the preferred destination of many emigrants. I will however, remain ashamed of the anti-Semitic immigration polices of such places as the US and England at this time though which were crimes against humanity even by the standards of the day.

A theme that seems to pervade the history of Palestine during this pre-Partition period according to Tessler - was that nationalism, while always part of Palestinian aspirations, seemed always to take a back seat to inter-Arab politics and power struggles on one hand - and a growing hatred of Jews on the other. For those reasons and others, it seems that a coherent nationalist movement never really materialized - at least one that was willing and able to set aside parochial, clan and religious differences to pursue the common goal of Palestinian independence and eventually, statehood.

So, rather than say that there was no real nationalist movement, I'd now say that there was. It was just poorly organized and focused. It was never the equal of the Jewish need to finally establish a Jewish state - which literally became a "do or die" task for them by WWII thanks to Adolph Hitler.


The same is technically true of Zionism which was heavily fragmented in its implementation. At its core definition, Zionism is more or less a struggle for respect, what differs is the means to that end though often times this means is often conflated to mean Zionism. At the time of Israeli Independence you had quite a few competing notions of how to implement Zionism of which Nationalism was an affair not wholly committed to by World Jewry. Even at the time of the declaration of Independence, the number of Jews who were in favor of this option were still less than 50% of the world population. This included much of the haredi and others in the ultra-orthodox community who slowly changed their opinion over time so that effectively at this time, a strong majority support the notion with only small groups remaining who do not support it. One such group who has remained steadfast in this is the very small, radical fringe Neturei Karta group.

The main difference between the Palestinians and the Jews were that the Jews, particularly the Ashkenazim from the West, were better able to not only interact and lobby for their interests, but also able to express and understand the mechanics of statehood. Had it been dependent upon the Mizrahim who were much less organized than the Palestinians, then it is likely that Israel would not have been founded.

For many years there existed (and I believe still exists to some degree though there have been major public efforts following revelations such as the 1995 Baby adoption scandal and the attitudes that were displayed in those events) cultural and political disparity between the Mizrahim and the Askhenazim.

The Palestinian Arabs were surrounded by other Arab states which at least offered some support and a chance of a fall-back option for them, which I think perhaps gave them less motivation that the Israelis. The Jews were faced with virtual extinction. The Palestinian Arabs saw nationalism more as a question of politics and divided allegiances by that time.

I see this period as dominated by survival instincts rather than moral issues. I think that all changed in November 29, 1947 when the Partition Plan passed the UN. At that time things became deadly serious for both sides and each side would have to live with the moral decisions they made between then and May 15, of 1948 when the Brits pulled out - of how they would respond to those events.

Specifically I think the decision of Israel to reluctantly accept it - and the Arab decision to try to destroy the new state of Israel, first with a Palestinian army augmented by recruits from surrounding Arab states, and then by the armies of the Arab League itself on May 15 - is where the major moral difference lies and where the stage was set for virtually all the conflict that has come after that fateful date.


- Morality? We went through this before. There is no morality in war, it is amoral. Individuals made moral and immoral choices throughout the campaigns, but there is no such thing as a state ethos or conscious and as such it is an error to try and make moral judgment against the people. As for Israel reluctantly accepting it? No, I do not agree with that as the very idea of any statehood was something to not be missed. I also want to point out there were moderates in the Palestinian camp who did advocate for the partition, but these were effectively silenced by the dominance at that time of the Grand Mufti and the rather strong hubris and nationalism which was sweeping the Palestinians at that time.

However, I do think it very sad that some sort of agreement was not reached which allowed for the two nations to be born in peace and not war. I also pity both nations as they both often seen periods where small groups of small men were able to exert sufficient forces at various key and leveragable moments.

Minor quibble, the initial Palestinian Army consisted of four main elements.
- The Arab Liberation Army consisting of 4,000 men from both Palestine and neighboring countries. This group was the one trained in Syria and equipped by the Arab League. They operated in the Galilee/Samaria areas.
- 3,000 men, mostly Palestinian, operated in the Jaffa/Lydda/Ramleh area and were lead by a German trained leader by the name of Hassan Salemah.
- The Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt was the source of 1500 men who fought in and around what is now Ashkelon
- 5,000 men, mostly Palestinian, under a relative of the Grand Mufti who fought in/around Jerusalem.

While there were indeed foreign elements and supply, the Haganah and Irgun also received outside volunteers and supplies. By the time the Arab armies entered the picture, the war was pretty much already decided. The only remaining issue was where the armistice lines would be.

Even so, it really doesn't matter. Using the US as an example, the US used quite a number of European volunteers and ultimately European regulars in its fight.

L-
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nicoll Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #34
40. what chance of peace
Edited on Mon Nov-27-06 06:17 AM by nicoll
Come on people what chance of peace in the conflict that is sustainable. There are only between 8 and 10 people debating on this thread at present and non of us can agree. If we are not debating the terrorist attacks by the Palestinians or excessive force by the IDF we are in disagreement on how the land should be fairly split.

We just have to admit some things and be honest with ourselves:

Firing rockets into Israel by the Palestinians from the Gaza Strip is wrong and counter productive.

The response from the IDF to the rocket attacks is over excessive and too many Palestinians civilians are being killed in the operations. They only seem to increase the number of rockets being fired and not stop them.

At some point the partitioned land has to be divided between both sides where the Palestinians and Israeli's both get what they want. Both have to accept each others right to exist has two sovereign states within the partitioned land.

What do the Palestinians want - Their own state that is viable. Complete control over the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The land that was not awarded to the Palestinians by the UN, but outside of the state of Israel within the partitioned land.

What do the Israeli's want - Their own state within the Middle East that is viable and without fear of terrorist attacks by it neighbors. Retention and absorption in to Israel of a number of its own settlements within the West Bank.

How can you address these two opposing claims on the same piece of land and have peace that is sustainable when we can not even agree on the split.

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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. No land was "awarded" to the Palestinians
It simply never happened.

When you have a firmer grasp on the actual history of the region, it sounds like you may have something to contribute.
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nicoll Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. Then give me details on what Israel wants in the West Bank
You say that there are parts of the west Bank that Israel wants to keep. I want more specific information on the the subject.

How many settlements does Israel want to keep in the West Bank? Can I have full names, the establishment date, whether there was any Palestinian homes there before and the number of people in each settlement as well?

How much land does Israel want out of the West Bank in sq km please?

What size would a Palestinian state be if this is the case in sq km please?

I just want to know the numbers that you are talking about when you refer to a negotiation for land in the West Bank. I have stated that I believe that all of the West Bank should be under Palestinian control and just want specifics from you as well. Just to say that Israel wants to retain certain settlements is not enough information to contribute to a debate on how the West Bank should be divided.

Boston critic can you please try and answer the above questions the best you can and not ignore them. In previous threads you have not answered the questions asked of you and only criticized what I was saying.

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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. I'm not a negotiator for the Israeli government
These are issues that will be decided when the two sides sit at the table. At the least Israel will insist on keeping most of East Jerusalem and perhaps some of the communities around the city. There are many settlements that were set up without official approval and they will be erased, and others that are more established that will be given up as well. We have the examples of Sinai and Gaza to demonstrate that Israel is willing to risk the wrath of the settlers if they believe giving up the land is the right thing to do.

Before Arafat walked away from the negotiations under Clinton, Israel was talking about giving up over 90% of the West Bank (I don't recall the exact percentage) and to trade off land from within Israel in exchange for land they wanted to hold onto. So all this talk about "apartheid" and "landgrabbing" is just plain false.

Let the Palestinians show they're serious about peace and they will get their nation. They could have had it years ago. It's not Israel's fault the Palestinians wouldn't make peace.
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nicoll Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. what about this then
You say that there has not been a Palestinian state - okay. But the vast majority of the land was Arabic just prior to the december UN Partition plan. This had been the case for well over a thousand years. The Jewish people can not just turn up after almost 1600 years of being away and stake a claim directly over the land. The overall majority of Jews coming to the area were from outside of the Middle East and probably not even had relatives living in the area for well over a thousand years. For you then to question the right of the Arabs to at least control 20% of the land that was partitioned in 1947 is like the pot calling the kettle black. Both claims are questionable. The Jewish claim because there had been such a massive gap in history between the original Jewish state and present day Israel. There has an amount of time that you reach when you can not claim land back - 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000 years how far back can claims be dealt with seriously. The Palestinians it is true did not have there own state there, but for at least a thousand years were overwhelmingly in the majority on the land. This has to count for something when a claim to the land is made.

For me I just think to much time had past imbetween the original Jewish state and the formation of a Jewish state in December 1947 for so much land to be allocated to Israel by the UN and this was not taken into account by the world community at the time. What changed everything was the Second World War and the Holocaust. Without that non of it would have probably have happened. I find it ironic that the most evil man the world has ever known (Adolf Hitler) greatly contributed to forming a state in the Middle East for the Jewish people. Whats done is done, but to question the right of the Arabs to control the West Bank when they were in control of the land for so long is not recognizing the right of the Arabs to the land.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. No, there was no Arab sovereignty there -- ever
And there were indigineous Jews -- not just newly arrived settlers from Europe -- going back thousands of years. Mark Twain cites them in his "The Innocents Abroad," written long before Herzl was talking about a Jewish homeland.

And, in fact, Israel was given a tiny sliver of land, most of it going to the Arabs. Where do you think the nation of Jordan (then called "TransJordan") came from? That was a huge chunk of the Palestine Mandate that was carved out for the Arabs. The remaining land was then divided further. Israel was *prepared* to accept the tiny sliver it was granted, but even that was too much for the Arabs, which declared war.

So you've got your history exactly backwards.
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nicoll Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. Questions to answer for BOSTON CRITIC
Please can you try and answer some basic questions that I ask you.

How much land does Israel want out of the West Bank in sq km please?

How many settlements does Israel want to keep in the West Bank?

What dates were they built there oldest first?

Was there any Palestinian homes on the land prior to the Jewish settlements being built?

What size would a Palestinian state be if this was the case in sq km please?

What were the number of Jewish and Arab populations for the following dates in the land that was partitioned in December 1947: 1800 - 1850, 1850 - 1900 and 1900 - 1947?

Please, please, please, please can you try and answer these questions BOSTON CRITIC has best you can and not ignore them.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. I have answered them...
...I'm not the negotiator for the Israeli government. If you want to know what they think, you can easily find out yourself.

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nicoll Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-28-06 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #51
80. Fine mr boston critic I will find out and get back to you
Okay what I will do is find out all the information and get back a.s.a.p. I want to build up a chronological order for when each settlement was built in the West Bank and what was there before each one was built. As well as this I will find out the exact numbers of Jews who were living on the land from 1880 - 1947 and immigration levels year by year if pos and the ages of all arab towns, cities in the partitioned land and if they still exist.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #50
56. How much land does Israel want out of the West Bank in sq km?
that question has not basis in reality..it cant even be answered by anybody involved......
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
53. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. Your "plague on both your houses" argument...
...is inappropriate. Israel has repeatedly been ready to negotiate with its neighbors. Whatever mistakes they have made, you can not claim that *Israel* has been responsible for blowing chances for peace. Quite the contrary.

Indeed, yesterday when the Palestinians CONTINUED firing missiles into Israel, Ohlmert ordered the IDF to hold their fire to give the ceasefire a chance to work. This time -- unlike in the past -- the PA stepped up to their responsibilities. I hope this continues.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. Oh come on already...
Israelis are as equally responsible for the violence as the Palestinians are.

Their humans rights abuses and excesses of force are well documented, as are the terrorist attacks and abductions by the Palestinians.

I've heard the excuses all of my life, and I've also heard about the peace process which always gets derailed.

Well, I'll tell you why that happens, THE PALESTINIANS AND THE ISRAELIS WANT TO KILL EACH OTHER!

This isn't some uncontrollable force, if they want to stop fighting, they are completely capable of doing so.

They don't. They hate each other so much they want to kill each other.

And the Israelis, despite what you might think, are completely capable of hating Palestinians. The other day I had a conversation in this forum with someone who was trying to justify torturing Palestinians, in my book that's a good indication of hate. (Or maybe I'm wrong on that one? :shrug:)
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #59
70. Sorry, I leave the phoney moral equivalence arguments...
...to people who don't know anything on the subject.

You've just qualified.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. How isn't Israel responsible for civilian deaths when they use F-16s and helicopters?
Isn't that kind of like removing a brain tumor with a machete instead of scalpel?

Why shouldn't Israel be held responsible for those deaths, they're the ones flying the planes aren't they?

How is that phony?
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. I'm sick of the hypocrites who call for a proportional response
No nation under attack has ever felt it has to be polite when defending itself against those who would deliberately maim and kill its populace.

Israel should use all the technology they deem necessary to defend themselves. When the Palestinians decide that the Israeli response is too much to bear -- as they apparently have -- they're finally able to call of the attacks that THEY started.

And what did Israel do? They agreed to a complete ceasefire, and they didn't respond even missiles were fired AFTER the ceasefire started, because they're trying to give it a chance.

Why do you want to blame Israel, and give a pass to the Palestinians? What IS your agenda? It obviously isn't a just peace for the region.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. What a perfectly disgusting post.
NO mention of the encouragement the US (filled also with "horrible awful people"?) lavishes military arms and aid to help one side continue the mayhem.
No mention of occupation.
No knowledge of history.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #57
71. Well, you've finally admitted what you're posting
They say admitting your problem is the first step in dealing with it.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. Here's why:
The I/P conflict is a terribly destabilizing factor in the world. Many beneficial things would flow from peace between the parties. That doesn't mean the Darfur or other areas aren't of equal importance, but surely you can see that peace in mideast is indeed important.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. Go and take the time to research this...
you'll find that the total fatalities from this conflict, even if you account for its effects elsewhere in the world, are far far less than Darfur.

There are about three big reasons we give shit about these idiots:
1. Oil
2. Oil
3. Oil

We should spend the money we send to these fools on research into alternative energy. If they are really willing to make peace they will, but I doubt that this recent "breakthrough" will really lead to anything substantial and lasting.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. It appears you need to do some research if you
believe that it's all about oil. It's about religion and culture at least as much as oil.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Oil's the reason the world pumps in arms and money...
to keep these idiots fighting. It's odd how Jews and Muslims can live in the USA without blowing the crap out of each other, isn't it?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. No, it's not terribly odd
if you know anything about history.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. I've been watching your last few posts . .
Edited on Mon Nov-27-06 02:18 PM by msmcghee
and enjoying the lesson in political science.

But, I'd say there's nothing "odd how Jews and Muslims can live in the USA without blowing the crap out of each other".

Any Muslims attacking Jews in the US would be immediately imprisoned and/or deported. Those who have emigrated here appear to enjoy living in a peaceful society more than they enjoy killing Jews. They have embraced the rule of law instead of vengeance and vendetta. Apparently, that's why they are here.

The reason US Jews don't attack US Muslims is because the overwhelming majority of them also embrace the rule of law - as they have proven through their many generations living as Jews in America.

When the next Israeli government is elected with a platform of the extermination of Arab Muslims from the ME and when Israelis start firing randomly into Gaza with the intent to kill as many Palestinians as possible and then celebrating their successes - I'll start worrying about US Jews attacking Muslim Americans.

That's like, when pigs fly.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Do you really
believe that most Muslims enjoy killing Jews? That's what your post sounds like.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. Most? Many? All? Some?
Edited on Mon Nov-27-06 02:51 PM by msmcghee
I don't see the importance of finding the exact number or percentage that do.(1)

What does seem important to me is that it is a significant number - enough that this conflict has gone on for 75 years now and whenever any kind of peace settlement seems close - that "significant number" starts killing Jews again and destroys any chance of peace.

As I pointed out in another post,

I have posted links before to videos of Palestinian teachers showing off five-year-old girls telling their class how much they look forward to killing Jews when they grow up. We have all seen the videos of the street demonstrations glorifying successful rocket attacks on Israeli civilians. We've all see the posters of the "martyrs" who managed to kill some innocent Israelis with their suicide belts - placed in the public square and publicly acclaimed for their deeds. We've seen the videos of the Hisb'allah terrorists escaping in Red Crescent ambulances. We've seen and exposed the outrageous claims that Israel kills Palestinian civilians "wantonly" and we've debunked the elaborate lies that Israel fires missiles through the roofs of Red Crescent ambulance.

I don't know how we can have any discussion of the problems of the ME without acknowledging those strong cultural / emotional factors that lie behind the conflict.

These strong cultural / emotional factors are actually fairly well understood by most reasonable people in the world. I feel a need to point them out here only because of the constant efforts by some here to deny that they exist. They claim that the Palestinians want peace but that Israel keeps harassing and attacking them and won't let them live normal lives. The purported Israeli harassment and incitement is then given as the reason why the defenseless Palestinians are left with no choice but to struggle back against the mighty IDF - as best they can - by randomly killing Israeli civilians.

This is the ridiculous subtext to most posts on the pro-Palestinian side in this forum. It is a purposeful attempt to re-create reality to justify the actions of this significant part of the Palestinian population that engages in these activities.

At least, I should have the right to challenge this pretense.

(1) To forestall the accusations of bigotry that are likely to follow, I don't believe all Palestinians share these cultural / emotional values. Neither do I believe those values are racial or genetic in origin. I think they are a product of the politics and cultural values of the particular Arab society that exists today in the ME.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. I might have missed the exact thrust of your question.
Edited on Mon Nov-27-06 04:48 PM by msmcghee
The post you were responding to specifically referenced US Muslims and US Jews. Yet your question uses "most Muslims"

I should probably add, in case I missed your meaning - that I imagine that most US Jews and US Muslims harbor some animosity for the other side. I think those few among them who might have some violent tendencies keep it in check because they value living here or not being in prison more than they want to express that violence.

I do know that Hamas and Hisb'allah have both called for attacks against US citizens at various times. I have also heard interviews of US Muslims from the large Muslim community in Dearborn, MI (on NPR) openly express support of Hisb'alla during the recent war in Lebanon. That person said the whole community of Arab Americans in Dearborn supported Hisb'allah. I don't know if that is true. I suspect there must be at least a few who don't.

I don't know if there are any Muslim Americans who would actually attack US citizens (Jewish Americans or not) under some circumstances. I certainly don't advocate treating the whole population of Muslim Americans like we treated Japanese Americans in WWII. But I will admit that after 9/11 the risk makes me a little uneasy.

I have never heard of any US Jewish group express support for anyone who advocates attacking US citizens. So I do have somewhat different feelings - emotional beliefs - about the possible risk to other Americans posed by these two groups.

I guess the actual risk depends on how many Muslim Americans actually hold the strong anti-Israel / anti-American values of their brethren in Palestine. I don't know the answer to that - but I hope it is very small.

PS - I should also add that I can't see how my original post left the impression that "I think most Muslims enjoy killing Jews" but since you thought it did leave that impression - I am trying to treat your question seriously in my reply.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Deleted message
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. You are very wrong
But you've obviously decided that feeling morally superior to both sides is the only way you can address the topic.

And the notion that Israel should limit their military options when dealing with people who are tring to murder Israelis -- civilians are deliberately *targeted* -- and destroy their country is utter nonsense. By such "logic" the US "overreacted" to Pearl Harbor and should have just bombed a Japanese naval base in return.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Deleted message
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. I was going to stay out of this, but
Of course, if the Israelis were truly dedicated to peace, they wouldn't be conducting military offensives


I take it then that the US (not to mention the rest of the Allies, once the fighting left their territory) was the aggressor in both World Wars?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Deleted message
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