Who represented the Brady Campaign at CPAC?

[HankyDubs]

We all know the NRA was there, because the NRA is a right-wing political organization. It is only right that they should be there alongside war criminals, religious fanatics and bigots, white supremacists and radio propagandists.

My question is...did the Brady Campaign have any representatives there? I'd be very interested in seeing whether there were any.

[TheCowsCameHome]

1. I just watched a clip from the CPAC freakfest.

Never have I seen so many wannabe assholes and whoremasters in one place.

To answer your question about Brady, I really dunno.

[RSillsbee]

2. I think it was Marsha

Or maybe Joe

[HankyDubs]

3. Sooo...

No clever remarks.

I take it that this means there were no reps from the Brady Campaign at CPAC. Just the NRA sitting there next to white supremacists, bigots, fanatics, war criminals and propagandists.

Point made.

[RSillsbee]

4. I said I though Joe was there

What more do you want?

[Euromutt]

25. "Point made"?

What point would that be?

[HankyDubs]

32. I'm afraid

that if I wrote this answer out for you, my post would be reported to the moderators. That's why I need to talk around the point rather than making it more directly.

[Euromutt]

34. Going by the OP, I would have imagined...

...that your point was something along the lines that the Brady Campaign's absence at CPAC somehow constituted evidence that Helmke and the Bradies themselves don't subscribe mostly to right-wing politics. Correct me if I'm wrong in that surmise.

[HankyDubs]

36. you'd be wrong

but I think you probably know that.

My point was to make a point about the NRA, about its importance to right wing politics. Helmke and the Bradies may have right wing politics in other areas, I'm sure that Bloomberg does...but is their influence as strong as the NRA's? I read your previous post about the NRA sponsoring CPAC, so I assume you are a rational person. I just wonder why supposed democrats support such a powerful right wing organization?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

44. "is their influence as strong as the NRA's?"

That might be more to do with more people agreeing with NRA vs the Brady Campaign.

If you aren't popular, you aren't popular. Nobody lines up for skunk flavored ice cream and a punch in the stomach, either.

Perhaps a better question is, "Why don't more progressive/liberal/democratic events make room for the NRA?" Self-defense is, after all, a civil right.

The RWers also had GOProud at their event and DADT was struck down in the courts because of the Log Cabin Republicans, not a democratic organization. We're losing the cross-over battle and we deny that fact at our own peril.

[HankyDubs]

45. there is no doubt

that the NRA is more popular in conservative politics than the Brady campaign. Hey, they helped sponsor the event, as Euromutt pointed out.

GOProud are not respected in the gay community, nor are they respected by conservatives. Is this the organization you wish to emulate?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

51. "Is this the organization you wish to emulate?"

Yes. Absolutely.

You know why?

Because they are TRYING.

They aren't stewing in the fact there is distrust and suspicion. They are reaching out.

Unlike you who comes charging in to the forum with outrageous blandishments and arrogant proclamations, belittling people at every turn.

Conflict comes from two parties refusing to understand each other. When nations do it we call it war. Somebody has to be brave enough to be the first person to stop acting stupidly. You rail in thread after thread, post after post about how dangerous people wanting their natural and legal rights are and yet you do everything to antagonize them with your smarmy diatribe. No matter how many citations of statistics and case law people have patiently shown you, all you return with is nastiness that just gets nastier.

Why?

Are you so arrogant you believe your own propaganda or do you really know, deep inside, that guns or not none of these people would even consider harming a hair on your head? That would make you what my dad would refer to as "a meely-mouthed little punk" who taunts people he knows won't hurt him.

Guess what?

Self-defense is a civil right and civil rights should be a progressive value.

Reaching out and understanding like GOProud does should be a progressive value.

Adherence to the law and not emotional opinion should be a progressive value.

Facts, not personal opinion, should be a progressive value.

Being a punk is for bullies and that is not a progressive value.


I'd take lunch with GOProud over you any day.




Sorry for the rant, everybody else.

[HankyDubs]

53. Because they are TRYING.

Yeah, TRYING to pretend that conservatives aren't virulently anti-gay.

"Unlike you who comes charging in to the forum with outrageous blandishments and arrogant proclamations, belittling people at every turn."

I am belittled here frequently, but it doesn't bother me.

"You rail in thread after thread, post after post about how dangerous people wanting their natural and legal rights are and yet you do everything to antagonize them with your smarmy diatribe."

Actually, I never said that law abiding gun owners are dangerous. I merely said that gungeoneers are wrong.

"No matter how many citations of statistics and case law people have patiently shown you, all you return with is nastiness that just gets nastier."

Now again, I have patiently made my case here, despite ample amounts of bile being spewed at me. You have insulted me a few times here, because the point I made bothers you. But don't worry, I won't report your post.

"Self-defense is a civil right and civil rights should be a progressive value."

You don't need a gun to defend yourself.

"Being a punk is for bullies and that is not a progressive value."

Don't do it then.

"I'd take lunch with GOProud over you any day."

Yeah, but the gay community wouldn't take lunch with GOProud. They are regarded as liars and sellouts by REAL gay activists.

"Adherence to the law and not emotional opinion should be a progressive value."

This is why I keep pointing out that playing on FEAR, as the gungeoneers do, is not progressive.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

57. Oh please, all you do is run around fear-mongering

What else is your position based on except that guns in the hands of otherwise law-abiding people will needlessly kill innocent people.

That's fear-mongering.

[HankyDubs]

59. nah

Fearmongering is all this jibber-jabber about "gun grabbers" "duh gubermint" and "self-defense."

When I point out that guns kill people, that's just a fact of life.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

Except it is NOT a fact that law-abiding people kill innocents

From the evidence I've seen in this forum properly license citizens are safer then the police. That's not a slam on the police just a statement.

So if law-abiding citizens are safer than those charged with public safety just who do you intend to disarm and why?

[HankyDubs]

64. law abiding citizens

are law abiding right up to the moment that they choose to break the law. But that wasn't my point.

Their guns kill innocents, whether they are stolen by burglars or fall into the hands of minors.

I'm not proposing that we disarm anyone, that's a misrepresentation.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

67. And you're law-abiding up until the moment you aren't

What is your future crime?

Drunk-driving?

Wife-beater?

Kiddie-porner?

What did the windmills do to make you tilt them so?

[HankyDubs]

71. when I said that wasn't the point

that's what I meant. You didn't respond to the point I did make, though.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

75. From what I've seen, your contentions are overstated

not to say they are non-existent and every one of them is a tragedy but your presentation of them is inflated.

I would add that misuse does not negate proper use.

Self-defense is a natural right just as is free speech but free speech is not negated by practices of libel, slander or even pointless graffitti tagging.

And if there is no ban in your plan then what is your objective?

[HankyDubs]

76. my objective

is to reduce gun violence in America. I thought that was obvious. I'm willing to look at various solutions to ameliorate this propblem.

"Self-defense is a natural right"

Ownership of an assault rifle or a handgun is not necessary for self-defense. Nor is ownership of a 33 round magazine a natural right. Over and over, the gun enthusiasts conflate self-defense with unlimited access to firearms, but this is a misrepresentation.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

77. It must be awesome to be omniscient

Since when are other people's natural rights weighed against what you think they ought to be allowed?

And this just puts the stink to the BS you've been shoveling. You claimed kids were being accidently shot and guns being taken away from legal owners.

Yet, you want to take assault rifles and hi-cap magazines away; things that don't figure in those tragedies to any statistically significant degree.

That's not arguing from fact; that's exploiting tragedies for political opportunism.

And how can a home/shop-owner, stalker victim, gay leaving a nightclub, woman with a purse defend themself with a rifle?

And your sword cuts both ways. Let's play pin the tail on the jackass. Nobody wants to take away your right to free speech but since you obviously use your right to the detriment to other people's rights maybe you don't need a computer and internet connection.

See how assigning limitations for other people's rights works?

[HankyDubs]

80. calm down.

"Since when are other people's natural rights weighed against what you think they ought to be allowed?"

And again, there is no natural right to own a 33 round magazine or an ak-47. You can keep repeating this, free country and all, but it's simply not true.

"You claimed kids were being accidently shot and guns being taken away from legal owners."

How is that BS? Do I really need to link to the zillion reports of firearms being stolen in home invasions and robberies? Do I really need to link to all the reports of kids being shot accidentally? This isn't a "claim," it's a fact.

"Nobody wants to take away your right to free speech but since you obviously use your right to the detriment to other people's rights maybe you don't need a computer and internet connection."

I don't see how my speech here has been detrimental to other people's rights. I have made a point here about the NRA and CPAC, one which still has not been addressed; there has been a ton of subject-changing here.

I don't have a natural right to a computer or an internet connection, just as I have no natural right to purchase a 33 round magazine or an ak-47.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

87. What is the point of claiming something is a right if others can so narrowly define it

that is ceases to be?

You're effectively saying people cannot have handguns or "assault rifles" which obviously aborgates the need for any magazine regardless of capacity.

How long until you lump in rifles and shotguns?

Tell me, if abortion were as restricted as you intend for guns would it still be *my* right?

How is that BS? Do I really need to link to the zillion reports of firearms being stolen in home invasions and robberies? Do I really need to link to all the reports of kids being shot accidentally? This isn't a "claim," it's a fact.

Link to the statisitics about stolen guns and accidental shootings that involve hi-cap magazines and "assault rifles" since these are your repeated complaints.

I don't see how my speech here has been detrimental to other people's rights.

Admitted without argument.

And you never answered about how all those people could reasonably defend themselves with your restrictions in place. Yet, you chose to answer everything else to the point of excising select quotes. That demonstrates evasiveness.

[HankyDubs]

93. ah the slippery slope

Always we return to the slippery slope.

There have been laws concerning firearms in this country since colonial times. Yet here we are. Slippery slope arguments are prima facia bullshit. If by some miracle we reach a point where all shotguns are subject to nationwide bans, you would find that I would join you in opposing such measures.

"Tell me, if abortion were as restricted as you intend for guns would it still be *my* right?"

What is going on inside your body is different from what goes on outside your body. Notably your ally Scalia believes you have no right to control what is going on inside your body, but does agree with your stance on gun "rights." Ironic? I think so.

"And you never answered about how all those people could reasonably defend themselves with your restrictions in place. Yet, you chose to answer everything else to the point of excising select quotes. That demonstrates evasiveness."

'Scuse me? Where was I evasive? People could reasonably defend themselves by learning hand-to hand self defense techniques, or if they are not able to do that, they could purchase a revolver or a non-lethal weapon such as a can of mace/pepper spray etc.

"Link to the statisitics about stolen guns and accidental shootings that involve hi-cap magazines and "assault rifles" since these are your repeated complaints."

I actually didn't say that accidental shootings necessarily involve assault rifles or high capacity magazines. This is another misrepresentation. I said, in one post here, that the guns of law-abiding owners are stolen and/or fall into the hands of minors. I also said that 33 round magazines and assault rifles are not necessary for self-defense. You even admitted that you can't keep an m-16 in your purse. Both of these are undeniable facts, but they are not directly connected, until you attempted to make that connection by conflating two different statements I made.

In fact, this entire conversation has been an excercise in evasion on your part...anything to avoid discussing the fact that the NRA is a right wing political organization.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

What is going on inside your body is different from what goes on outside your body.

Unless it is a rapist in which case it kind of overlaps.

Thanks for the abortion, I guess I just need to learn to lay there and relax.

Or take Tae Bo lessons.

The guns that scare you most are least likely to be stolen or involved in an accidental or malicious shooting. Just because something scares you doesn't mean others should be deprived of their legal rights.

The ones that are most likely to be involved in a tragedy are nonetheless most practical for legitmate defense, more so than Tae Bo lessons.

[HankyDubs]

120. Whoa!

"Unless it is a rapist in which case it kind of overlaps."

WHOA THERE! I don't think that a person has a "natural right" to rape another person. So there is no overlap, unless you believe there is a "natural right" to rape people.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

123. Oh good grief!

If a woman cannot defend herself then the rape occurs inside her body so there is an overlap to the gun outside my body.

No gun outside, unwelcomed penis inside.

Get it?

No one should ever tell a woman she has no right to defend against that. It is one of the cruelest and most violent acts that could ever be perpetrated against another human being.

[HankyDubs]

130. good grief indeed

You are now attempting to insinuate that since I support sensible restrictions on gun ownership, I must therefore be pro-rape.

"No one should ever tell a woman she has no right to defend against that."

Who said that? All I pointed out was that you don't need an m-16 or a Loughner mag to defend yourself against a potential rapist.

[derby378]

132. Then how is ownership of a 10-round magazine a natural right?

And who makes that decision? And what's to stop that person from deciding that a 5-round magazine is all the right that the American citizen needs?

I'll keep my 30-round magazine and the rifle it's used with. That is my natural right.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

137. Your rights are whatever he says they are.

Just lay still and try to relax. It'll soon be over.

[derby378]

138. Reminds me of "The news is whatever we say it is"

Steve Wilson and Jane Akre would beg to disagree most strenuously. :hi:

[HankyDubs]

142. Right

Again you insinuate that I'm a pro-rapist...in fact it looks like you're now crossing over and implying that I'm a rapist. That's not very nice.

No rights are absolute. There is the safety of your fellow citizens to consider...if you ever thought about anyone but yourself this would be easier to understand.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

151. When dealing with the pro-rapist, anti-minority self-defense types

yeah, you kind of have to think about yourself.

I have the safety of me and my fellow citizens to think about after all.

[HankyDubs]

157. now now now

nastiness isn't a substitute for an argument.

You aren't thinking about anyone's safety. That's a joke, right? The safety of those citizens is sacrificed because you'd prefer to have a Loughner mag and an m-16 to put in your purse.

PS: I'll remind you again, as you call me "anti-minority" that the KKK supports your position and Bobby Rush+MLK III support mine.

[PavePusher]

178. Now you are just flame-baiting.

You lose.

[gejohnston]

183. look deeper in history

Neither is stupidity. Until the last fourty years, our strictest gun laws were in the South. Do you think those (including South Carolina's handgun ban from 1902-1966) was supported by the Klan? Anti gun groups like Brady have said in thier propaganda one should not resist and "lay back and enjoy it."

[Nuclear Unicorn]

136. Please straighten out your points

Your post, #76: Ownership of ... a handgun is not necessary for self-defense.

Your post, #93: People could reasonably defend themselves by learning hand-to hand self defense techniques, or if they are not able to do that, they could purchase a revolver or a non-lethal weapon such as a can of mace/pepper spray etc.


First, you either changed your position between the 2 posts or you're confused to the fact that a revolver is really a handgun. Even I know that much.

Second, hand-to-hand and/or pepper spray? Really?

Third, African Americans used surplus military weapons to defend themselves from the KKK during the Civil Rights Era. So who is really siding with the racists?

[HankyDubs]

140. Straightened

"Ownership of ... a handgun is not necessary for self-defense"

Absolutely true. For many centuries people defended themselves without handguns. Incredible. To this day, people defend themselves every single day without brandishing a gun or firing a shot.

"People could reasonably defend themselves by learning hand-to hand self defense techniques, or if they are not able to do that, they could purchase a revolver or a non-lethal weapon such as a can of mace/pepper spray etc."

I'm making an accomodation here for those who for various reasons cannot learn self-defense skills. I'm OK with revolvers because I presume you can't make a revolver with a 33 round capacity.

"Third, African Americans used surplus military weapons to defend themselves from the KKK during the Civil Rights Era. So who is really siding with the racists?"

Gee wiz, I dunno. Let's see here:

"Give me the sense to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the weapon to make the difference. Never surrender your firearms. Without the Second Amendment, we would not have the First Amendment."

--Jeff Berry, grand dickhead of the KKK.

Who is siding with the racists again? Read my sig. Black people during the jim crow era were actually in danger, every day, potential victims of people like your amigo Jeff Berry...who were all armed to the teeth with firearms, incidentally.

Many civil rights pioneers were murdered with guns, still others (like Bobby Rush) agree with me, not you, as does MLK III.

[RSillsbee]

119. Ownership of a semi automatic military look -a-like might come in handy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L5ttIHV12s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmsKGhLdZuQ&feature=related

[QuintinInAlaska]

181. "Self-defense is a civil right and civil rights should be a progressive value."

You don't need a gun to defend yourself.


Pfffft.

What color is the sky where you live?

Maybe you've heard this one before:

Gun control is the idea that a 150 pound woman should have to have a fist fight with a 250 pound rapist.

[shadowrider]

70. I'm bowing to the master n/t

[RSillsbee]

74. She spanked him good NT

[Hoopla Phil]

111. She usually does. Very logical and ever more informed.

I guess that is why, as her education in firearms and the 2A increased, she made a big change.

[Euromutt]

153. I'd say that's a chicken-and-egg question

For better part of forty years, the Democratic party has allowed itself to be yoked to the cause of increased gun control, whereas the Republican party has, for the most part, been supportive of gun rights. So we have to ask: is the conservative movement pro-gun rights because the NRA is a right-wing organization, or does (the leadership of) the NRA lean right because that's where the voters and politicians are who can be counted on to be pro-gun rights?

I would say that the fact that the Brady Campaign doesn't have much traction with the right wing of the American political spectrum is because right-wingers tend to be pro-gun rights, and that, I would argue, is the same reason that the NRA does. Ergo, the NRA's rightward tendency is an effect, not a cause, of its raison d'être.

I just wonder why supposed democrats support such a powerful right wing organization?

Very simply, because it's the 400-pound silverback of pro-RKBA organizations. More politically neutral, let alone left-leaning, gun rights organizations are few and far between, don't have anywhere near the political clout of the NRA, and may support policies that many left-leaning gun owners consider too restrictive. Those liberal Democrats like myself who are NRA members hold out some hope of being able to exert some measure of influence on other members by making it clear that being left-wing and socially liberal does not ipso facto make you anti-gun. I'll be the first to concede that there is a lot to dislike about the NRA, but that's not going to change if we refuse to engage.

It is, moreover, over-simplifying the situation to say the NRA is right wing. The leadership most assuredly does express itself as sympathetic to conservative causes, but the Political Victory Fund (the arm that actually contributes to political campaigns) assigns grades and issues endorsements purely on the basis of a candidate's stance on gun issues (with incumbency acting as a tie-breaker for endorsements).

[PavePusher]

5. Well, it is refreshing for someone to be so open and honest...

about their bigotry. Some people are shy with theirs, but you... you wear it right there on your sleeve.

Stay classy.

[HankyDubs]

7. so you're saying that

I'm bigoted against white supremacists, war criminals and bigoted fanatics.

Ooooh ya got me. Guilty as charged. See I'm a librul...are you?

[lawodevolution]

10. You are a bigot because your ignorance of gun owners and the NRA has brought about fear which has

turned into such a blind and unchecked rage against gun owners and the NRA that you are willing to make such an outrageous post attacking the NRA using deceptive loose associations with those who were at this meeting and further using loose associations between them and certain unpopular groups. You're using a primitive coping mechanism known as "acting out" which is kind of like a temper tantrum because the big bad NRA is keeping you from controlling the guns law abiding citizens can own.

[HankyDubs]

15. the only blind and unchecked rage here

is the rage displayed by the gungeoneers any time anyone disagrees with them, points out their hypocrisy, etc etc etc.

[lawodevolution]

17. Where? Point out my rage. I don't often show emotion here. But your OP is pure emotion and

anger

[HankyDubs]

20. what?

I merely asked a question. Where's the emotion? I think you're projecting just a weensy bit.

[lawodevolution]

38. Your attempt at bypassing the debate process and smear a group for being around other groups that

You rage against shows your emotionalism. I try to engage the groups like the ones you wrote that went to CPAP and win hearts and minds while you try to dismiss them and their views as unacceptable trash. Would you suggest placing the attendees of CPAP in concentration camps and reeducating them to think how you feel they should think?

[HankyDubs]

61. I'm not bypassing, I'm encouraging

Debate. The NRA is a right wing organization, which sponsors CPAC. Are you a member of this right wing organization? Why?

"I try to engage the groups like the ones you wrote that went to CPAP and win hearts and minds while you try to dismiss them and their views as unacceptable trash."

Yeah...no. I'm not going to go pal around with white supremacists, religious bigots and war criminals.

"Would you suggest placing the attendees of CPAP in concentration camps..."

Uh, no. But don't stop hyperventilating and misrepresenting what I said or anything.

[lawodevolution]

98. no but you just admitted you pal around with the "pure race" la RAZA

[HankyDubs]

102. please stop with the racist fearmongering about la raza

it's not a racist group.

[PavePusher]

21. I am not enraged.

Disgusted, possibly.

You compared law-abiding firearm owners to vile bigots and criminals.

The hypocracy is entirely your own.

[HankyDubs]

22. I did no such thing

Please don't misrepresent what I said. I didn't say one single thing about "law abiding firearm owners."

I merely pointed out that the sainted Wayne LaPierre was invited (I presume...perhaps he was paid a speaking fee) to hang out with the bigots and criminals. I don't confuse gun owners with the NRA, that's the game that the NRA plays to pretend it has more members than it does.

[PavePusher]

43. Your own words:

"We all know the NRA was there, because the NRA is a right-wing political organization. It is only right that they should be there alongside war criminals, religious fanatics and bigots, white supremacists and radio propagandists."

No mention of LaPierre (nice attempt to move those goal posts), but clear insinuation that NRA members are consorting with, and thus sympathise with, bigots and criminals.

You really aren't very good at playing disingenuous.

[HankyDubs]

46. again, misrepresenting

The NRA certainly was consorting with bigots and criminals...they sponsored the event that these criminals and bigots attended, as Euromutt pointed out.

You referred to law abiding gun owners...do not confuse all law abiding gun owners with the NRA. As I said, the NRA plays this game to inflate its membership, but I didn't confuse the two...you did.

[rl6214]

8. I was going to say something a bit more obnoxious

but I think you pegged it right there. Good job.

[lawodevolution]

6. Links please. First off show us the NRA was there. Next show me racists etc were there

[HankyDubs]

9. done and done!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x552675 ----> war criminals

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x552735 ----> white supremacists

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/santorum-at-cpac-obama-doesnt-say-that-jihadism-is-evil.php ----> fanatics and bigots

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4728617 -----> and last, but not least...the NRA.

[lawodevolution]

12. Not much going on at your links but more acting out. Cheney was there. Ok yawn

Try pulling some quotes from your links to make your point

[HankyDubs]

14. You have difficulty opening the links?

A) the nra president was there.

B) a war criminal was there

C) nasty gay basher and anti-muslim bigot Santorum was there.

D) white nationalist freaks were there too.

Peas in a pod.

[lawodevolution]

16. Martians were there too

You made a strong statement, back it up and show me with real evidence that there was a racist group there.

Also who among them was convicted in court of war crimes?

[HankyDubs]

19. aw please

"back it up and show me with real evidence that there was a racist group there."

Watch the video I linked to...it's from DU. I'm not sure why it is so hard for you to watch it. Then again the only real evidence I need to prove that there were racists at CPAC...is that conservatives were at CPAC.

"Also who among them was convicted in court of war crimes?"

Ah, so you're one of these democrats that doesn't think torture is a war crime. Right?

[lawodevolution]

37. "For those inside the race, everything. For those outside the race, nothing."

This is a slogan of a group that considers themselves the "pure race" or in Spanish La RAZA who also work with LULAC

LULAC is also a racist group and they are partnered with the Brady campaign.

http://lulac.org/news/pr/progressive_coalition/

"America Votes’ national partners include organizations that work on many issues such as choice, the environment, labor, “netroots”, civil rights, education, minority rights, retired persons, and much more. Our partners include: ACORN, AFL-CIO, AFSCME, Alliance for Retired Americans, American Federation of Teachers, Association of Trial Lawyers of America, Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence with the Million Mom March..."

Does this matter? Should I make this into a new thread and investigate it in depth including parts of the Brady campaign website that sources from la raza?

[HankyDubs]

47. oh sweet ignorance

La Raza is not a racist organization. "La Raza" refers to the "La Raza Cosmica," if you actually knew anything about the organization. Please don't participate in right wing fearmongering about La Raza. I am proud to be associated with La Raza, as I am proud to be associated with all anti-racist groups.

[lawodevolution]

95. wow, you are proud to be part of a racist group that mainstreamed itself, good for you.

and you are also calling other groups racist and bad. shame.

how's your "pure race" going for you?

[HankyDubs]

99. I'm not a member

of La Raza. Of course if you were informed, you'd know La Raza is not a racist organization in any way, shape or form. In fact this allegation isn't just a sign of ignorance, it is a sign that you are buying in to hysterical shrieking racists who deliberatly misrepresent what La Raza is all about.

La Raza is about uniting different ethnic groups in central/south america and rejecting racism pointed at indigenous groups.

[lawodevolution]

101. so what groups at CPAP were racist groups? show the proof. if you don't have to prove that they ar...

racist, I don't need to prove that la RAZA is racist although their organization started off because they wanted to protect their "pure latino race" and promote it above other races, actually promoting latinos above other races is still the MO of LULAC and la Raza and that is also racist.

[HankyDubs]

103. again with the anti-latino fearmongering.

"pure latino race"

La Raza, coming fom the book La Raza Cosmica is exactly opposed to the idea of a pure latino race. Please stop with the bigotry against S. and C. American people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXDWEZekD-A

I already presented this vid to you. Please open it and watch it.

But of course large percentages of white conservatives are in fact extremely racist anyway.

[lawodevolution]

105. organizations that promote one race over others is racist, la RAZA and LULAC promote latinos

over other races, which is racist.

so both sides are in bed with some kind of racist. So you have made no point in this thread at all. Both democrats and republican have racist groups and racists supporting them. The NRA and the Brady Campaign will have racist groups at events that they participate in.

I recall you originally attempted to make the claim that the NRA was associated with racists because they were in close proximity to groups you think are racist, and the brady campaign was clean. I just showed you that is not correct, the brady campaign is also associated with racists.

[HankyDubs]

110. you've yet to prove

that La Raza is racist. You've made many of the typical right wing accusastions about La Raza, but I don't see that you have proven that they are racist. You simply repeat the same drivel without regard for the facts.

"I recall you originally attempted to make the claim that the NRA was associated with racists because they were in close proximity to groups you think are racist"

Supplying money to CPAC does more than place them in proximity to racists...they helped provide a venue for this EXTREMELY RACIST GROUP to use to build membership.

"the brady campaign is also associated with racists."

Probably, but then again, they weren't at CPAC.

[lawodevolution]

133. you have not proven anyone is racist either. Your video link is broken.

Still, the white supremesist groups support and promote whites over other races = racist
latin groups like la Raza and LULAC support and promote latinos over other races = racist

[HankyDubs]

139. video link fixed

And it also appeared earlier on this thread, though you apparently still refuse to watch it.

"latin groups like la Raza and LULAC support and promote latinos over other races"

Never proven this, but keep repeating it if you like. Your hysterical hatred of Latino Advocacy organizations is creepy.

http://lulac.org/

http://www.nclr.org/

Don't see any racism here...but your comments about them, totally unsupported and quite vicious...

[lawodevolution]

179. In the video the guy seems to be from a group that wants to support and benefit his

Race in a similar way la raza and LULAC do. Both are racist. Your original point that the NRA was bad and the Brady campaign was good has been disproved because both sides have associated with racist groups, in fact most political organizations have associated with racist groups so the point is moot

[Euromutt]

172. C'mon LoD; you're getting a bit silly here

Would you say that the NAACP is racist because it strives for the "Advancement of Colored People"? You appear to be assuming advancement is a zero-sum game, and that striving for increased civil rights for one ethnic group must necessarily occur to the detriment of other ethnicities.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

129. Richard Dreyfuss was there

:shrug:

[DonP]

39. Watch what you say about Cheney, two weeks ago he was a gun contol friend

As long as we're wallowing in pseudo association fallacies ...

It kind of shocked me that when Cheney agreed with the idea of a magazine ban, some people on DU that had been calling for his prosecution, all of a sufdden thought he was a great example and there were all kinds of posts citing his statements.

It just amazes me who people will agree with, as long as they support one form of gun control or another.

[HankyDubs]

52. again:

Copied from my post below:

Hilarious that you pretend Cheney is a gun control advocate, because of one remark he made after the AZ massacre, despite his lengthy record as a congressman and VP:

http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/NewsReleases.aspx?id=10...

http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/Speeches.aspx?ID=32

And he actually spoke at the NRA annual meeting in 2004. So yeah, not much of a gun control advocate.

[DonP]

169. I never said he was - you really have to work on that reading thing more

Last week and the week before we had at least a dozen posts in GD and down here pointing out how "reasonable" Cheney and Meghan McCain were for speaking out for magazine limits.

It's not me, it's your "highly principled" gun control people that fell in love with him for the week. Gun control people seem to love anyone that says anything critical about guns.

[Euromutt]

26. The NRA is one of CPAC's sponsoring organizations

Even if none of the leadership show up, the organization is still represented.

As a member, I am far from happy with that state of affairs, but oh well, baby steps.

[onehandle]

55. You don't think that racists were at the biggest Conservative party?

And yes, the NRA was there addressing their people:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4728617

[beevul]

11. Of course they weren't there.

Of course they weren't there.

They went to the BC treasurer, and between the treasure and themselves, they couldn't come up with bus fare. The treasurer had almost enough for 1 fare, but the rest of them were too cheap - Neither cheney nor peggy noonan nor lugar nor mark helmke nor sara nor paul would chip in.

"because the NRA is a right-wing political organization"

NRA Support For Democrats In Key Midterm Races Frustrating GOP


So far this year, the NRA has endorsed 58 incumbent House Democrats, including more than a dozen in seats that both parties view as critical to winning a majority.

Among the most vulnerable Democrats who have won NRA backing are Reps. Betsy Markey (Col.), Harry Teague (N.M.), Chet Edwards (Tex.), Allen Boyd (Fla.), Earl Pomeroy (N.D.), Debbie Halvorson (Ill.), Paul E. Kanjorski (Pa.) and John Boccieri (Ohio).

The NRA has endorsed three of the four potentially vulnerable Democrats in Virginia, backing Reps. Rick Boucher and Glenn Nye as well as Perriello. Rep. Gerald E. Connolly, who represents Fairfax and Prince William counties, received an F rating from the group.

In Maryland, the NRA has endorsed freshman Rep. Frank M. Kratovil Jr., who will be one of the most vulnerable Democrats in November.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/06/nra-endorsing-democrats_n_752790.html

Did seeing that burn your eyes?

[friendly_iconoclast]

13. Awww, you went and ruined a perfectly good associational fallacy

Keep up the good work!

[HankyDubs]

18. tell me

if the NRA isn't a right wing political organization, then why was their leader speaking at the "Conservative Political Action Conference?"

Most of the democrats you mention there are blue dogs, aka "conservatives," aka right wingers. Now of course the NRA is willing to contribute to corrupt politicians in both parties...that's how they do business after all. But check out the split, it's not even close, republicans get far more cash from the NRA-ILA every single election year:

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000082

The NRA supports right wingers, be they dems or reps. The key is corrupting politicians who are willing to be corrupted...

"and between the treasure and themselves, they couldn't come up with bus fare"

Yes, you're right. The Brady campaign doesn't have the sort of financial backing from wealthy private donors and multinational corporations that the NRA does. Sounds like another reason to support them.

Hilarious that you pretend Cheney is a gun control advocate, because of one remark he made after the AZ massacre, despite his lengthy record as a congressman and VP:

http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/NewsReleases.aspx?id=10594

http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/Speeches.aspx?ID=32

And he actually spoke at the NRA annual meeting in 2004. So yeah, not much of a gun control advocate. But don't let the fact that you are spewing horsecrap slow you down.

[PavePusher]

23. Perhaps you could invite the NRA to speak at Dem events.

Give them an opportunity to prove their bipartisanship.

[HankyDubs]

24. that would be a laugh

Yeah, why not sell out real democratic values just a little bit more, so they can be even more like republiklan-lites.

[slackmaster]

28. The Brady Campaign doesn't represent real Democratic values any more than the NRA does

You seem to be having a hard time getting your head around it.

[one-eyed fat man]

40. Democratic values and a puzzle

Obama backs extending Patriot Act provisions

Are the No Fly List and Selectee List constitutional? The ACLU believes that the entire system of watch lists is unconstitutional, ...

Bush used the war on terror to take away many rights once they are lost, it's hard to get them back. Too much money is spent on these programs to do away with them.

All governments love power. Ours is no exception. But you can always trust your government, the government has your best interests at heart. Especially if you are too big to fail.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8343417&mesg_id=8343541

Which of the unconstitutional power grabs made by the Bush administration has the Obama adminstraion overturned? Who campaigned saying the Patriot Act should be allowed to die?

Secret watch lists are a bad idea until you get to use them against people YOU hate?

Pardon me if that looks like a pachyderm shipping container to me...

[Hangingon]

89. What are those "real democratic values" ...

that would be sold out by inviting the NRA? I thought we were for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I thought we prided ourselves on being open. I thought that many Democrats were for the 2nd Amendmmment.

[beevul]

29. Ok, your told.

"Most of the democrats you mention there are blue dogs, aka "conservatives," aka right wingers. Now of course the NRA is willing to contribute to corrupt politicians in both parties...that's how they do business after all. But check out the split, it's not even close, republicans get far more cash from the NRA-ILA every single election year"

Yes, the party which represents the gun owner to a better degree, gets more support from the nra.

Many of US have been trying a long time to change that, in spite of loudmouth hatemongering fools who do everything they can to make the Democratic party an unfriendly place for gun owners who don't agree with them on the gun issue.

Besides, You've made perfectly clear, you wouldn't have it any other way.

You dont want the support of the nra.

That kind of makes your complaints of "conservative" blah blah blah...a bit hollow.


"Yes, you're right. The Brady campaign doesn't have the sort of financial backing from wealthy private donors and multinational corporations that the NRA does. Sounds like another reason to support them."

Nor do they have 4 million-ish dues paying members, which is about a hundred times the membership of all gun control groups combined. Besides brady and co, you also got your crooked little "mayors against illegal guns" group. They seem to have a knack for destryoing their own credibility (Just like the brady bunch) though, so they really aren't worth bothering with.

Don't let the fact that your side is losing, and will continue to lose, or the reasons for both, slow YOU down.

[HankyDubs]

31. hmmm

hatemongering fools eh? Sounds like a bit more projection. Pretty pathetic response, not much here for me to work with since you didn't really respond, but just went straight into shreiking insults.

"Besides, You've made perfectly clear, you wouldn't have it any other way."

Yeah, I don't want support from the NRA. I also don't want support from the American Family Association or the Chamber of commerce. At some point you have to stand for something. Good or evil, your choice. Communities ravaged by gun violence, or the Firearms manufacturers. I side with the people and against the arms manufacturers.

"Don't let the fact that your side is losing, and will continue to lose, or the reasons for both, slow YOU down."

As I point out each time that you gloat and brag, my "side" is the side of sane people looking for solutions. Your side is the extremist absolutists and th weapons manufacturers. Though it might seem to you that you will "win" something, this is actually not the case.

[beevul]

33. You have this odd habit...

"Pretty pathetic response, not much here for me to work with since you didn't really respond, but just went straight into shreiking insults."

You have this odd habit of ascribing an emotional response to others, where no such emotional response or indicator of such is present. You have, multiple times in this thread, ascribed to others "shreiking", and other such reactions which were not in fact true.

Why do you continue to do so?

"Yeah, I don't want support from the NRA."

Then you have no business complaining who they support, unless its Democrats. Complain away.

"As I point out each time that you gloat and brag, my "side" is the side of sane people looking for solutions. Your side is the extremist absolutists and th weapons manufacturers. Though it might seem to you that you will "win" something, this is actually not the case."

No sir. Your side is the one that must lie and mislead the general public at every opportunity, because it can not gain widespread support any other way.

Your side is the one that can not, in any measurable terms, simply state what level is enough gun control.

Your side is the one that is unwilling to even discuss by what measure it will make any determination of when theres enough gun control.

Your side is the one that tries to take the American arms manufacturing business and turn it into "big gun", in spite of it being the relatively smaller industries there are.

Your side is the one that claims "we aren't for gun bans, were not a gun ban group" while supporting the DC and chicago gun bans out of the other side of their mouth.

Your side is the one that claims glock handguns are “not suited for hunting or personal protection”, which is an outright lie.

Your side is the side that crookedly argues for a ban on "high capacity magazines", while actively trying to ban "standard capacity magazines" out the other side of its crooked mouth.

Your side is the one with the mayors group complete with crooks and fellons and people who have shown they're incapable of being in a position of public trust without abusing it.

Your side is the one that untruthfully said to the public "assault weapons were the choice of crooks and gangbangers" in order to push an agenda.

Your side is the one that tries to paint anyone that opposes it as "extremist absolutists" in an effort to minimize and reduce your opposition.


Say, hows all that working out? I mean, you guys have been at it for better than ten years.


What have you gained?

What have you lost?

What have WE - your opposition - gained, on the other hand?

This seems a supremely appropriate time and place for a zappa quote:

"Do you love it do you hate it? There it is the way you made it”

Enjoy your bed.

[HankyDubs]

35. these are always fun convos

"You have this odd habit of ascribing an emotional response to others, where no such emotional response or indicator of such is present. You have, multiple times in this thread, ascribed to others "shreiking", and other such reactions which were not in fact true."

Well I did point the finger back at those who accused me of rage and whatnot, but that's because I was right. Every third post you write is some sort of diatribe, so I think it's fair to describe you as "emotional." Do you think emotions are bad? You're a human, it's OK to have emotions. Take a deep breath and accept that you have emotions.

"Then you have no business complaining who they support"

I'm not complaining that the NRA is a right wing organization, like the AFA and the Chamber of Commerce. I'm just pointing that out because it annoys the gungeon so much when I tell the truth about them.

"Your side is the one that can not, in any measurable terms, simply state what level is enough gun control."

Finally a good point. Well my response is that gun control must take different forms in different communities, based on what the people in those communities want.

"Your side is the one that claims "we aren't for gun bans, were not a gun ban group" while supporting the DC and chicago gun bans out of the other side of their mouth."

And your side is the one that wants to subvert the will of people in these communities, forcing your agenda on them no matter how many people die.

"Your side is the one that claims glock handguns are “not suited for hunting or personal protection”, which is an outright lie."

I dunno about "suited," but you just don't need a glock to defend yourself. Get a katana, learn jiu jitsu or something. Get a revolver if you must.

"Your side is the side that crookedly argues for a ban on "high capacity magazines", while actively trying to ban "standard capacity magazines" out the other side of its crooked mouth."

And your side is the one that runs interference for assassins and mass murderers.

"Your side is the one that untruthfully said to the public "assault weapons were the choice of crooks and gangbangers" in order to push an agenda."

Yes! Another good point! There certainly was a racist aspect of the assault weapons ban push, based on this "gangbangers" angle. I do note that gungeon posters often use similar racist arguments, describing all gun criminals as "drug dealers and gangbangers." But we do see that the drug cartels do like the assault weapons that they can buy here and smuggle over there.

"Say, hows all that working out? I mean, you guys have been at it for better than ten years."

Actually control advocates have been at it quite a bit longer than that. I thank them for the fact that the criminals and loonies in my urban area don't have RPG's and .50 caliber machine guns.

"Your side is the one that tries to take the American arms manufacturing business and turn it into "big gun", in spite of it being the relatively smaller industries there are."

You're joking right? Weapons manufacturers are big business.

"What have WE - your opposition - gained, on the other hand?"

I dunno. What do you think you have gained? More death...is that a victory? Some victory.

[oneshooter]

42. Question, answer please............

"similar racist arguments, describing all gun criminals as "drug dealers and gangbangers." "

Please tell me what race is "drug dealers and gangbangers."? In order to be a racist comment a race must be established. What race was offended?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[HankyDubs]

48. answered

these references to gangbangers and drug dealers are dogwhistles for white racists. I know that racists love to play dumb when it comes to this sort of racist code language, but I don't expect to see that sort of feigned ignorance on DU.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

58. "dogwhistle"?

There's a convenient term.

Do you need a secret-decoder ring to figure that out?

[oneshooter]

68. Not an answer. Please answer the question presented.

Unless you are unable to describe what race "gangbangers and drug dealers" are. There are not that many to choose from.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[HankyDubs]

72. actually, I did answer

you just didn't like the answer. That's ok. I'll point out that I made this point about the proponents of the assault weapons ban, as well as gun "rights" activists.

"Gangbanger" is code for black and latino youths.

[rl6214]

86. Bad arguement

I have seen plenty of white (caucasian) gangbangers and plenty of white (hispanic) gangbangers as not all hispanics are brown skinned. The narcos from the interior of Mexico are very white skinned with blue eyes as are many from the interior of Mexico/Mexico City.

[slackmaster]

69. Sometimes a reference to a gang-banger or drug dealer is just a reference to a gang-banger or drug..

...dealer.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4727842

[Nuclear Unicorn]

114. Freud also said fear of weapons displayed retarded sexual development

just sayin'

[HankyDubs]

118. Freud also said:

"Women oppose change, receive passively, and add nothing of their own."

"Girls hold their mother responsible for their lack of a penis and do not forgive her for their being thus put at a disadvantage,"

Just sayin!

[Hoopla Phil]

50. "criminals and loonies" the new code words for "gang bangers".

[HankyDubs]

54. well

I'll give you that loonies is a nasty way to refer to the mentally ill. In future I will stop using this term to people diagnosed with mental illness.

Criminals is a neutral term.

[rl6214]

83. "Get a katana"

Here is a Katana I would be more than happy to own.

http://www.redjacketfirearms.com/about/about.html

[rl6214]

85. Not this tired arguement again

"But we do see that the drug cartels do like the assault weapons that they can buy here and smuggle over there."

It's our own ATF that is making sure this happens.

[slackmaster]

27. The Brady Campaign isn't a conservative organization. It's an authoritarian one.

Maybe they'll show up at the next APAC meeting. No doubt HankyDubs will be there as well, and will fill us in.

[HankyDubs]

30. ah

lovely...evidence? Not a bit of it...

[slackmaster]

41. Their manifest goal is to BAN things, which means reducing the CHOICES available to people

That is fundamentally authoritarian, even if you take them at their word that they don't really want to ban all private gun ownership. Their long-term stated goals have included an outright ban on private handgun ownership. That was when they were called the National Coalition to Ban Handguns.

Despite two or three name changes designed to make their position appear "reasonable", they're still the same bunch of AUTHORITARIANS.

[HankyDubs]

49. err...

the NRA was sharing the podium with Dick Cheney and the religious right. Those are the authoritarians. Make no fucking mistake.

Since bans are actually put in place by the majorities in local communities, the idea that they are authoritarian is just plain laughable.

[slackmaster]

60. I regard the religious right, e.g. anti-abortion people, as authoritarians as well

Not true conservatives.

Since bans are actually put in place by the majorities in local communities, the idea that they are authoritarian is just plain laughable

Red Herring. The Brady Campaign is the subject here. Blanket bans on handguns have been ruled unconstitutional, but a nationwide ban is one of the Brady Campaign's goals.

[HankyDubs]

62. certainly they are conservatives

Conservatives supported monarchists, slavery, segregation. Conservatives are always the enemies of progress.

"Red Herring."

WHAT? The will of the people in these communities is a red herring, merely because you want to force your views on them, no matter what the consequences are?

[slackmaster]

63. We're not discussing "the will of the people in these communities" in this thread, so it is a RH

...merely because you want to force your views on them, no matter what the consequences are?

Please point out where I have ever said that I want to force my views about anything on anyone.

[HankyDubs]

65. yeah, actually

I started this thread to discuss the NRA's participation in (and now I know they also sponsored) CPAC. So I guess I could refer to most posts here as red herrings.

"Please point out where I have ever said that I want to force my views about anything on anyone."

If you support the Heller decision, that's what you support. Using judicial power to usurp legislative power...the power of the people and their elected representatives.

[slackmaster]

66. I support self-determination at the household level over tyranny by a local community

If you don't want handguns in your house, that's your business and I support your right to ban them.

I don't support allowing a local community to dictate what kinds of weapons a person can keep in the privacy of his or her home any more than I would support allowing a local community to ban all abortions. Too often local communities are run by busy-bodies who are too interested in putting their noses into peoples' stuff.

[HankyDubs]

73. so you're an anarchist

opposed to all democratic governments? Or is it just when they do things that you disagree with ?

[slackmaster]

79. No, I'm OK with curtailment of rights being done at a higher level, so that rights are uniform

Restrictions should be done with the broadest consensus possible so that all people have equal protection.

Local restrictions remind me of the arbitrary rules imposed by homeowners' associations. At that level, there isn't enough real consensus to ensure that people are treated fairly and equally.

Why should a local community have more say in individual personal choices than individuals or families have?

[HankyDubs]

82. because

these local communities are the ones being torn apart by gun violence. Voters in rural areas should not be able to over-rule decisions about the public safety of those living in urban areas.

[slackmaster]

84. The fact that you can't isolate communities kind of negates the effect of local gun control

The same criminals who commit the violent crimes you refer to are surely going to be willing to go outside of the community to acquire weapons.

The only effect local gun control has is to restrict the choices of the people you don't need to worry about.

[HankyDubs]

88. certainly true

but the idea is that the local ban empowers police to act against criminals for violating the local ban, and not force them to wait until the creeps start blasting away. Doesn't mean all guns disappear, but the idea was to reduce the total number of guns, not to disappear them entirely.

[slackmaster]

90. The city of Chicago is a woeful example of that extra tool in kits of police not doing any good

Doesn't mean all guns disappear, but the idea was to reduce the total number of guns, not to disappear them entirely.

I don't buy the argument that the gun bans in Chicago or DC made any difference in how many guns ended up in the hands of the criminals in those locales. Guns don't distribute themselves randomly like gas molecules.

[HankyDubs]

94. it's difficult to prove this right or wrong

"I don't buy the argument that the gun bans in Chicago or DC made any difference in how many guns ended up in the hands of the criminals in those locales."

That's up to you. It's hard to say with any certainty what would have happened had no bans been in place, it's not possible to get statistics on entirely theoretical propositions.

[slackmaster]

115. I have to agree with you on that

We reach.

[HankyDubs]

56. lots of subject-changing

let's see if we can return to the topic. Not only did the sainted Wayne speak at this event, but Euromutt has educated me and explained that the NRA actually sponsored CPAC.

Does this cause any of you NRA members to reconsider your membership in this right wing organization?

[Union Scribe]

78. Do you have any hobbies

besides this? Can you do them more often?

[HankyDubs]

81. i can appreciate

the fact that gun rights activists don't appreciate my prescence here and would very much like to silence me.

[Union Scribe]

91. There you go, one of your hobbies could be climbing off that cross.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

92. When did refuting nonsense become suppression?

:crazy:

[HankyDubs]

96. did I miss the post

In which you refuted the point that the NRA is a right wing organization? Oh right, more evasion.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

113. Who cares?

They have a right to their position.

Which incidently is a right that includes women and minorities and all religions.

The fact the democrats don't do more to gain NRA support is the democrats fault.

Oh, and when did refutation become suppression or are you still evading?

[HankyDubs]

117. well it does matter

when you claim that you refuted something when you actually never did.

The NRA is a right wing political organization. Fact. Not refuted here or anywhere else.

I didn't claim that I was suppressed. I said that the gungeon would like me to be silent, to stop pointing out how wrong they are, and certainly this is also a fact.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

121. So the NRA went to CPAC and because

conservatives support them the most they in turn support conservatives the most.

This is news, how?

However, it has been pointed out, in this very (ridiculous) thread, that the NRA has backed plenty of democrats recently.

Maybe they have principles for their single issue.

I wish democrats would woo them away from the GOP or maybe if both sides agreed to protect people's rights on this issue the NRA would have nothing to work for anymore.

You, if anything, supply the fodder for their fund-raising letters.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[X_Digger]

125. The NRA supports anyone who supports the second amendment. That's a fact,

As shown by who they endorse and give money to.

If they were a right-wing political organization, they would never endorse or give money to anyone with a (D) behind their name.

[HankyDubs]

128. no democrats are right wing?

Meet Zell Miller.

"The NRA supports anyone who supports the second amendment."

Yup. No matter how bigoted they are, no matter how many war crimes and violations of the constitution they have committed, the NRA would support ANYONE, no matter how poisonous, as long as they support an absolutist interpretation of the 2a.

To use an extreme example, if the NRA had existed in Germany in the 1930's they would have supported Adolf Hitler because he loosened gun restrictions.

Thanks for making my point again.

[X_Digger]

131. Thanks for agreeing - "the NRA would support ANYONE"

They are a single issue group.

I plan on remind you of your statement every time you call them right wing.

[HankyDubs]

135. refuted below

[X_Digger]

97. Well, it is very dangerous to faith-based positions..

And because every idea is a special snowflake, worthy of it's own participation trophy in the contest of popular opinion.. fairness doctrine and all that..

Aww fuck it. Nonsense deserves to be refuted.

[HankyDubs]

100. so

You're pleased that your sainted NRA president spoke at CPAC and that your beloved NRA sponsors the event?

Oh right, you were just avoiding this point.

[friendly_iconoclast]

104. He said nothing of the sort, but if you want to pretend he did- go right ahead.

I will treat those with factose intolerance exactly the same as any other person with a disability.

I'm not obliged to give their diktats any weight, however...

[HankyDubs]

106. right, sarcasm is difficult

for the gungeon.

I assume that x-digger is not particularly pleased that his sainted leader was addressing the CPAC that his beloved NRA helped to sponsor.

I'm just wondering whether this causes him to re-evaluate his support for the NRA.

[X_Digger]

109. Honestly, I don't give a shit either way.

As long as they fight for the second amendment, I'll support them.

You see, I don't put political party above my principles. It's okay to say that my party fucked up on this issue around 1968, got the stuffing beat out of them in 1994/6 over it, and is wont to go there again, today.

The NRA would dissolve away into obscurity if a group like the ACLU took up support of the second amendment as vigorously as they do the rest.

Until that point? Too bad, so sad.

[HankyDubs]

116. THANK YOU! The most important post on this thread

Most of the rest was just elaborate evasion. Here we have the truth.

The single issue voter cares only for one thing.

Women's rights over their own bodies? Not important.

Equal treatment for religious minorities? Not important.

Labor? Not important.

First, second, third, fourth, and last, is xdigger's gun. Nothing else matters.

[X_Digger]

122. Playing Carnac again?

I said I support the NRA.

I also support the ACLU, Planned Parenthood, Dallas SoupMobile, DFW Dachshund Rescue Foundation, among others.

I am not a single issue voter.

If you're going to try to shove words in my mouth, at least have the courtesy to wash your fucking fingers- what, did you scratch your ass with those?

[HankyDubs]

124. you said you don't give a shit

that the NRA supports CPAC...

Which means you don't give a shit that they support this platform for anti-choicers, religious bigots, war criminals. Doesn't matter to you that your dues go to this right wing political organization.

This makes you a conservative (doubtful) or a single-issue fanatic (far more likely).

[X_Digger]

127. They are a single issue advocacy group.

They support anyone who supports their single issue. It's as simple as that.

If more democrats would get on the proper side of this issue, the NRA would come woo us, instead.

I can't fault the NRA for seeking out those who support their single issue. To do otherwise would be hypocritical.

Which means you don't give a shit that they support this platform for anti-choicers, religious bigots, war criminals. Doesn't matter to you that your dues go to this right wing political organization.

Addressed above. They are not right-wing, left-wing, or chicken-wing. They support those who support the second amendment.

This makes you a conservative (doubtful) or a single-issue voter (far more likely).

False Dichotomy.

(And a glaring lack of imagination, I might add.)

I evaluate candidates on the totality of their positions. Social positions, fiscal positions, signature issues, voting record, previous experience in business, philanthropy, governance, committee appointments / chairmanships.. many factors. I don't automatically vote (D) for every candidate, though. There have been some republicans in local races that were flat out better than their democratic opponents.

[HankyDubs]

134. "To do otherwise would be hypocritical."

"They are not right-wing, left-wing, or chicken-wing."

Beg to differ. Exibit A...they sponsor CPAC, which is a hodgepodge of various interest groups that have nothing to do with the 2a.

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/healthwellness/144135/gun_lobby's_absurd_new_claim:_healthcare_reform_will_take_away_your_guns/

They opposed the HC reform on ludicrous grounds, and worked in a loophole for themselves in the defeated "DISCLOSE" act.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/us/politics/13nra.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

[X_Digger]

141. That's a weak refutation, even for you..

If group A is mostly pro-chicken wings, and group B is less pro-chicken wings, and group C is a single issue advocacy group for chicken wings, which do you think group C would support more?

Re the HC act- they took their single issue and made sure the HC act didn't impinge on their single issue. How is that ludicrous?

Re the disclose act- perhaps you should actually read the letter the NRA sent to congress - http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=5888

Or some of the provisions they objected to and what effect it would have had-

http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/NewsReleases.aspx?ID=13920

The introduced version of the bill would also have prohibited political speech by all federal government contractors. The NRA has contracts to provide critical firearm training for our Armed Forces and law enforcement agencies throughout the country. The bill would have forced us to choose between training our men and women in uniform and exercising our right to free political speech. We refused to let this Congress force us to make that choice.

What part of 'single issue advocacy' don't you understand? The DISCLOSE act would have affected their ability to advocate.

[HankyDubs]

144. Wrong

"The DISCLOSE act would have affected their ability to advocate."

Nope.

"We would also have been forced to list our top donors on all election-related television, radio and Internet ads and mailings—even mailings to our own members. We refuse to let this Congress impose those unconstitutional restrictions on our Association."

The NRA-ILA would merely have been forced to admit who their big money donors are...until they were exempted of course. Revealing the truth about their financial relationships in no way affects their ability to advocate, but merely their ability to collect huge sums from right wingers in corporate america.

"During consideration of the previous campaign finance legislation passed in 2002, congressional leadership repeatedly refused to exempt the NRA from its provisions, promising that our concerns would be fixed somewhere down the line. That didn’t happen; instead, the NRA had to live under those restrictions for seven years and spend millions of dollars on compliance costs and on legal fees to challenge the law. We will not go down that road again when we have an opportunity to protect our ability to speak."

Right, this is the same right wing argument, repeated ad nauseam by the other big money lobby shops and corporations, that money = speech. It does not.

The NRA is a right wing organization, offering their support for CPAC and the other totally unrelated right wing interests that use CPAC as a platform.

[X_Digger]

150. Wrong..

Here's the bill at Thomas

SEC. 101. PROHIBITING INDEPENDENT EXPENDITURES AND ELECTIONEERING COMMUNICATIONS BY GOVERNMENT CONTRACTORS.

[HankyDubs]

154. right

"To the extent that subsection (a)(1) prohibits a person who enters into a contract described in such subsection from making any independent expenditure or disbursing funds for an electioneering communication, such subsection shall apply only if the value of the contract is equal to or greater than $50,000."

So this applies only to organizations or individuals contracting for $50,000 or more. So this is all about electioneering and bribery, not speech. The NRA is free to say anything it wants, but its bribery arm would have been severely restricted if they wanted to continue to leech off the government. Or it could have chosen to accept $49,999 for its supposedly patriotic activity. Or it could have created an entirely separate entity in order to provide training, one that is totally unaffiliated with its various bribery activities.

Isn't it a bit ironic that the NRA tells its members to fear duh gubermint, while at the same time it is collecting large sums of cash from that same government?

[X_Digger]

156. They train federal marshals, border patrol agents, capitol hill police, among others.

And that's just at the federal level.

So this applies only to organizations or individuals contracting for $50,000 or more. So this is all about electioneering and bribery, not speech. The NRA is free to say anything it wants, but its bribery arm would have been severely restricted if they wanted to continue to leech off the government. Or it could have chosen to accept $49,999 for its supposedly patriotic activity. Or it could have created an entirely separate entity in order to provide training, one that is totally unaffiliated with its various bribery activities.

If they'd created a separate entity, you'd be pissing and moaning about a 'loophole' and how they'd bypassed the 'spirit' of the law on a technicality.

[HankyDubs]

159. you didn't exactly

dispute anything I said there. Thanks.

"If they'd created a separate entity, you'd be pissing and moaning about a 'loophole' and how they'd bypassed the 'spirit' of the law on a technicality."

If they created a truly separate entity, and did not use any cash from government contracts to lobby congresspeople, push-poll voters or to buy TV time, I'd have no problem with that.

[X_Digger]

161. I gave your garbage the response it deserved- nothing more.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/lookup2.php?strID=C00053553&cycle=2010

http://dailycaller.com/2010/11/01/thedc-exclusive-nra-spends-20-million-this-cycle/

In the 2010 cycle alone, they spent $20M - a hell of a lot more than they took in for training. 4,000,000 members at $30 per = $120,000,000.

The NRA has endorsed 197 Republicans and 61 Democrats running for House seats. Of the endorsed Republicans, 45 are considered targeted races where the organization has focused resources on a pro-gun Republican candidate running against an anti-gun or marginally anti-gun Democrat.

In the Senate, the NRA endorsed 23 Republicans and two Democrats. Asked about the two Democrats — Brad Ellsworth in Indiana and Joe Manchin in West Virginia — Cox said, “We don’t ignore those who have put their necks on the line in the legislative process.”

Cox said the organization roughly supported this year the same number of Democrats as it did 2008.

Here’s a glimpse of the NRA’s spending, exclusively provided to The Daily Caller by the gun lobby:

—The organization has sent out over 20 million pieces of mail. Of that total, 10.5 million pieces went to members, while 9.5 million pieces — enough to fill four tractor tractors, Cox said — was sent to gun owners who aren’t NRA members.

—About 40,000 individual radio and TV ads were purchased in key federal and state races.

—At least 4.5 million calls have been made.

—The gun lobby mailed out 2 million bumper stickers.

[beevul]

143. Exhibit B C D E F G H I and so on and so on....

NRA backs Schweitzer as he seeks second term

The Associated Press helenair.com | Posted: Tuesday, May 27, 2008


BILLINGS -- The National Rifle Association has endorsed Montana's Democratic governor, Brian Schweitzer, as he seeks re-election to a second term.

NRA Vice President Wayne LaPierre said Tuesday that his organization's backing reflects the governor's support of gun rights and laws to preserve fishing and hunting access.

Schweitzer's Republican opponent, Roy Brown, also has been an advocate of gun rights during his years in the state Legislature. The state senator from Billings received an ''A'' grade from the NRA during elections in 2002 and 2006.

Randy Kozuch, director of the NRA's state and local affairs division, said in races with multiple gun-friendly candidates, the endorsement goes to the incumbent.

During Schweitzer's first gubernatorial run, in 2004, the NRA backed his opponent, Republican Bob Brown. Both candidates got high marks from the NRA that year, but Schweitzer at the time lacked a voting record on which to base an endorsement.

http://helenair.com/news/article_f4c4152d-2ace-5cdd-b7ef-64d1b9c71c90.html


There are MANY such Democrats who the nra has endorsed over republicans. Cough Bill Richardson - nra endorsed.

That right there disproves your assertion that they're right wing. A true right wing group would NEVER endorse Democrats like Schweitzer and Richardson.


Btw, go ask in the montana forum how Montanan DUers like their governor.

Brian David Schweitzer (born September 4, 1955) is an American politician from the U.S. state of Montana. Schweitzer is its 23rd and current governor, serving since January 2005. Schweitzer currently has one of the highest approval ratings among governors in the nation, with polls regularly showing a rating of above 60 percent.<1><2> Schweitzer chairs the Western Governors Association<3> and formerly chaired the Democratic Governors Association.<4>


And then theres these nra endorsed democrats from 2004:


Heres a bunch of NRA Endorsed Democrats. This is only 36 states worth. They all Zell wannabees? (notice Howard Dean, first on the list).

(D) Howard Dean (D) Mark L. Doumit,(D) Jim Hargrove, (D) Jean Berkey, (D)Brian Hatfield, (D) Brian Blake, (D) William 'Ike' Eickmeyer, (D) Joe Baca, (D) Mike Schneider, (D) Barbara Buckley, (D)Genie Ohrenschall,(D) Ellen Koivisto, (D) John Oceguera, (D) Jerry D. Claborn, (D)Richard D. Perkins, (D) Mo Denis, (D) David Parks, (D) James Alexander, (D) Gino White, (D)Wendy Jaquet, (D) Mike McGrath, (D) Jim Elliott, (D) Lane L. Larson, (D) Kim Gillan, (D) Paul Clark, (D)Brennan Ryan,(D)George Golie, (D) Bill Wilson, (D) John W. Parker,(D) Margarett H. Campbell, (D) Ralph L. Lenhart, (D) Gary Matthews, (D) Monica J. Lindeen, (D)Gary L. Forrester, (D) Jayne Mockler, (D) Larry Caller, (D) Keith Goodenough, (D) Ross Diercks, (D)George W. Bagby,(D)Marty Martin, (D)Ann Robinson,(D) *Mary Meyer Gilmore, (D) Bill Thompson, (D) Jim Matheson, (D)Mike Dmitrich, (D) Eli H. Anderson,(D)Laren "Larry" C. Livingston, (D) Carl Duckworth, (D) Brad King, (D)Linda Aguirre, (D) Marsha Arzberger, (D)Pete Campos, (D)Shannon Robinson, (D)Mary Kay Papen, (D)Phil Griego,(D)Patricia Lundstrom, (D)Dona Irwin, (D)Andrew Nunez, (D) Joseph Cervantes, (D)Pauline Ponce, (D)Thomas Swisstack, (D)Bob Hagedorn,(D)Lois Tochtrop, (D) Liane "Buffie" McFadyen, (D)Max Sandlin, (D)Nick Lampson, (D) Henry Cuellar, (D) Mark Homer, (D) Chuck Hopson, (D) Jim McReynolds, (D) Robby Cook, (D) Dan Ellis, (D)Patrick M. Rose, (D) John Mabry, (D) David Farabee, (D) James "Pete" Laney, (D) Mike Villarreal, (D) Kevin Bailey, (D) Dan Boren, (D) Jim Wilson, (D) *Jeff Rabon, (D)Richard Lerblance, (D)Susan Paddack, (D) Charlie Laster, (D) Mike Morgan, (D) Jerry Ellis, (D)Glen "Bud" Smithson, (D)Neil Brannon, (D) Mike Brown, (D)Joe Eddins, (D) Ben Sherrer, (D)Barbara Staggs, (D)Ray Miller,(D) Terry Harrison, (D)Paul Roan, (D) John Carey, (D) Dale Turner,(D) Bob Plunk, (D) John Young, (D) Danny Morgan, (D) Joe Sweeden,(D) Terry Hyman, (D) Raymond McCarter, (D)David Braddock, (D) James Covey, (D) Purcy Walker, (D) Abe Deutschendorf, (D) Roy "Butch" Hooper, (D) *Joe Dorman, (D)Lucky Lamons, (D) Darrell Gilbert, (D) John Auffet, (D) *Debbie Blackburn, (D)Rebecca Hamilton, (D)Al Lindley, (D) Mark Gilstrap, (D)Chris Steineger, (D) Jim Barone,(D) Anthony Hensley, (D) Henry Helgerson, (D) Doug Gatewood, (D)Robert Grant, (D) Bill Feuerborn, (D) Jerry Williams, (D) James Miller,(D) Bonnie Sharp, (D) Tom Burroughs, (D) Margaret Long, (D)Candy Ruff,
(D) Harold Lane, (D) Jerry Henry, (D) Sid Regnier, (D) Jim Ward, (D) Janice Pauls, (D) Dennis Mckinney, (D)Stephanie Herseth, (D)Jim Peterson, (D) Gil Koetzle, (D) Garry Moore, (D) Frank Kloucek, (D) David Sigdestad, (D) Dawn Jaeger, (D) Gerald Lange, (D) Richard Engels, (D) Mary Glenski, (D) Gary Stodelmon, (D) Dale Hargens, (D) Paul Valandra, (D) Thomas James Van Norman, (D) Mike Wilson, (D) David O'Connell, (D) Larry Robinson, (D)Joel Heitkamp, (D) Dorvan Solberg, (D) Lyle Hanson, (D)Joe Kroeber, (D) Ole Aarsvold, (D)Ralph Metcalf, (D) Arden Anderson, (D) Bill Amerman, (D)Pam Gulleson, (D) Collin Peterson, (DFL) Kent Eken, (DFL) Loren A. Solberg, (DFL) Tom Rukavina, (DFl) Anthony "Tony" Setich, (DFL) David Dill, (DFL) Paul Marquart, (DFL) Mary Ellen Otremba, (DFL) Al Juhnke, (DFL) Lyle Koenen, (D) Leonard Boswell, (D) John Kibbie, (D)Dick Dearden, (D)Eugene Fraise, (D) Michael Gronstal, (D) Greg Stevens, (D) Marcella Frevert, (D) Dolores Mertz, (D) Roger Thomas, (D) Dick Taylor, (D) Geri Huser, (D) Jim Lykam, (D) Philip Wise, (D) Kurt Swaim, (D) Paul Shomshor, (D) Ike Skelton, (D) Victor Callahan, (D) Jim Whorton, (D) Rachel Bringer, (D)Wes Shoemyer, (D)Terry Witte, (D) Wayne Henke, (D) Thomas Green, (D) Gary Kelly, (D) Mike Sager, (D) Terry Young, (D) Ray Salva, (d)Paul LeVota, (D) Curt Dougherty, (D) Al Liese, (D) Allen Icet, (D) Tim Meadows, (D) Ron Casey, (D) Wes Wagner,(D) Harold Selby, (D) Belinda Harris, (D) Frank Barnitz, (D) J.C. Kuessner, (D) Terry Swinger, (D) Mike Ross, (D) Randy Laverty, (D) Jack Crichter,
(D)Jim Hill, (D) Jimmy Jeffres, (D)Gene Jeffress, (D) Percy Malone,
(D) Ken Cowling, (D) Robert Jeffrey, (D)Randy Rankin, (D) Lenville Evans, (D) Jay Bradford, (D)Scott Sullivan, (D) Dewayne Mack, (D)Bob Mathis,(D) Dawn Creekmore, (D) Dwight Fite, (D) Janet Johnson, (D) Sandra Prater, (D) Jeff Wood, (D)Will Bond, (D) Preston Scroggin,
(D)David Evans, (D) David Dunn, (D) Wayne Nichols,(D)Leroy Dangeau,
(D) Bill Stovall, (D) Charles Ormond, (D) Travis Boyd, (D) Dave Obey,
(D)Roger Breske, (D )Robert W. Wirch, (D) Julie Lassa, (D) Terry Van Akkeren, (D) John P. Steinbrink, (D ) Amy Sue Vruwink, (D) Marlin D. Schneider, (D)Barbara Gronemus, (D) Jerry Costello, (D) Pat Welch,
(D)William Haine, (D)Gary Forby, (D) Jack Franks, (D) Mike Boland,
(D)Patrick Verschoore, (D)Careen Gordon,(D)Frank Mautino, (D)Lisa Dugan, (D) Michael Smith, (D) Gary Hannig, (D) Robert Flider, (D) Kurt Granberg, (D) Bill Grunloh, (D)Steve Davis,(D)Jay Hoffman, (D) Thomas Holbrook, (D) Dan Reitz, (D) John Bradley, (D) Brandon Phelps,
(D)Gene Taylor, (D) Bud Cramer, (D) Sanford Bishop, (D) Tim Golden,
(D)Michael S. Meyer Von Bremen, (D) Steve Thompson, (D) Valencia Seay, (D)Steve Henson, (D) Mike Snow, (D) Barbara Massey Reece, (D) Buddy Childers, (D) Bill Cummings, (D) Jeanette Jamieson, (D) Don Wix, (D) *Stephanie Stuckey Benfield, (D) Hugh Floyd, (D) R. M. Channell, (D) Curtis S. Jenkins, (D) Lee Howell, (D) Robert F. Ray, (D) Bobby Eugene Parham, (D) Jimmy Lord, (D) Dubose Porter, (D) Johnny W. Floyd, (D) Greg Morris, (D) Penny Houston, (D) Ellis Black, (D) Ron Borders, (D) Jay Shaw, (D) Hinson Mosley, (D) Allen Boyd,
(D) Will S. Kendrick, (D) Dwight Stansel, (D) Sheri Mcinvale, (D) Lincoln Davis, (D) Jim Cooper, (D) Bart Gordon, (D) John Tanner, (D ) Tommy Kilby, (D ) Jerry W. Cooper , (D ) Jo Ann Graves, (D ) Rosalind Kurita,(D) Roy Herron, (D ) John S. Wilder, Sr., (D ) Harry Tindell, (D) Dennis Ferguson, (D ) Jim Hackworth, (D ) George Fraley, (D ) Frank Buck, (D ) John Mark Windle, (D ) Jere L. Hargrove, (D ) Charles Curtiss, (D ) Mike McDonald, (D) Stratton Bone, (D) Michael L. Turner, (D ) Ben West, Jr., (D ) Curt Cobb, (D ) Joe Fowlkes,(D) Eugene E. (Gene) Davidson, (D) David A. Shepard, (D) John C. Tidwell, (D ) Willie (Butch) Borchert, (D) Mark L. Maddox, (D) Phillip Pinion, (D) Craig Fitzhugh, (D) Ben Chandler, (D) Dennis L. Null, (D) Joey Pendleton, (D) Walter "Doc" Blevins, (D) Johnny Ray Turner, (D) Ray S. JonesII, (D) Denise Harper Angel,
(D ) Charles Geveden, (D) Fred Nesler, (D) Frank Rasche, (D) Mike Cherry, (D) *J.R. Gray, (D) *John A. Arnold JR., (D) *James E. Bruce, (D) *Joseph E. "EDDIE" Ballard, (D) Gross Clay Lindsay, (D) *Jim Gooch JR, (D)Tommy Thompson, (D) Brent Yonts, (D) Dottie J. Sims, (D) Jody Richards, (D) Rogers Thomas, (D) Rob Wilkey, (D) Jimmie Lee, (D) James H. Thompson, (D) Steve Riggs, (D) Perry B. Clark, (D) Robert R. Damron, (D) Rick W. Rand, (D) Royce W. Adams,(D) Charlie Hoffman, (D) Arnold R. Simpson, (D) Mitchel B. "Mike" Denham, (D) John Will Stacy, (D) Carolyn Belcher, (D) Don Pasley, (D) Adrian K. Arnold,(D)Susan Westrom, (D) Harry Moberly JR, (D) Rick Nelson, (D) Ted "TEDDY" Edmonds,(D)Ancel Smith, (D) W. Keith Hall, (D) Charles "CHUCK" Meade, (D) Robin L. Webb, (D) Hubert Collins , (D) Tanya Pullin, (D) Rocky Adkins, (D) Baron Hill , (D) Craig Fry, (D) Patrick Bauer, (D) Thomas Kromkowski, (D) Scott Pelath, (D) Dan Stevenson, (D) Chester Dobis, (D) Robert Kuzman, (D) Joe Micon, (D) Sheila Klinker, (D) Ron Herrell, (D) Ron Liggett, (D) Tiny Adams, (D) Terri Jo Austin, (D) Scott Reske, (D) Dale Grubb, (D) Clyde Kersey, (D) Alan Chowning, (D) Phil Pflum, (D) Peggy Welch, (D) Jerry Denbo, (D) Dave Crooks, (D) John Gregory Frenz A, (D) Terry Goodin, (D) Robert Bischoff, (D) Markt Lytle, (D) Paul Robertson, (D) James Bottorff, (D) William Cochran, (D) Dennie Oxley, (D) Russ Stilwell, (D) Dennis Avery, (D) Trent VanHaaften, (D) Win Moses Jr., (D) Ted Strickland, (D) Kimberly Zurz, (D) Charlie Wilson (D) Marc Dann, (D) Kenneth Carano, (D) John Boccieri, (D) William Hartnett, (D) Derrick Seaver, (D) Todd Book, (D) John Domenick, (D) L. George Distel, (D) John Dingell, (D) John J. Gleason, (D) Doug Bennett, (D) Jennifer Elkins, (D) Matt Gillard, (D) Stephen Adamini, (D) Rich Brown, (D) John W. Drummond, (D) Glenn Reese, (D) Linda H. Short, (D) Thomas L. Moore, (D) NikkiI Setzler, (D) Gerald Molloy, (D) Kent Williams, (D) John Yancey Mcgill, (D) John C. Land III, (D) *E. Dewitt Mccraw,
(D) *Olin R. Phillips, (D) Walt Mcleod, (D) Mike Anthony, (D) Herb Kirsh, (D) Douglas Jennings, JR., (D) Denny W. Neilson, (D) James A. "JIM" Battle, JR., (D) C. Alex Harvin III, (D) Jimmy C. Bales, (D) Thomas N. Rhoad, (D) Harry L. Ott, JR., (D) Bill Bowers, (D) Mike Easley, (D) Beverly Perdue, (D) Roy Cooper,(D) Mike Mcintyre, (D) Marc Basnight, (D) Scott Thomas, (D) Clark Jenkins, (D) Robert Holloman, (D) Cecil Hargett, JR., (D) R. C. Soles, JR., (D) Charles Albertson, (D) A. B. Swindell, (D) Tony Rand, (D) Daniel Clodfelter,
(D) David Hoyle, (D) Walter Dalton, (D) Joe Queen, (D) Martin Nesbitt, (D) Bill Owens, JR, (D) Bill Culpepper, III, (D)Alice Underhill, (D) Russell Tucker, (D) Arthur Williams, III, (D) Edith Warren, (D) Marian Mclawhorn, (D) William Wainwright, (D) Dewey Hill, (D) Edd Nye, (D) Joe Tolson, (D) Jim Crawford, (D) Marvin W Lucas,
(D) Douglas Yongue, (D) Ronnie Sutton, (D) Lucy Allen, (D) Earl Jones, (D) Alice Bordsen, (D) Pryor Gibson,(D) Lorene Coates, (D) Hugh Holliman, (D) Walt Church, (D) Jim Harrell, (D) James Black, (D) Bob England,(D)D. Bruce Goforth, (D) Rick Boucher, (D ) Joe Manchin, III, (D ) Darrell McGraw, (D) Alan Mollohan, (D) Nick Rahall, (D) Jeffrey V. Kessler, (D) Robert H. "Bob" Plymale, (D) John Pat Fanning , (D) Earl Ray Tomblin, (D ) Billy Wayne Bailey, Jr., (D) Anita Skeens Caldwell, (D) Shirley Love, (D) Bill Sharpe, (D) Roman W. Prezioso, Jr. (D)Jon Blair Hunter, (D) Mike Ross , (D ) Joe DeLong, (D) Randy Swartzmiller, (D) Tim Ennis, (D) Kenneth D. Tucker, (D) Scott G. Varner, (D) Dave Pethtel, (D) J.D. Beane, (D) Brady R. Paxton, (D ) Kevin J. Craig, (D) Jim Morgan, (D) Don Perdue, (D ) Joe C. Ferrell , (D ) K. Steven Kominar, (D ) Harry Keith White, (D) Richard Browning, (D) W. Richard "Rick" Staton, (D) Eustace Frederick , (D) Marshall Long, (D) Gerald L. Crosier,
(D) *Virginia Mann, (D) *Robert S. Kiss, (D) Ron Thompson, (D) Thomas W. Campbell, (D ) Tom Louisos, (D) David G. Perry, (D) John Pino , (D) Sharon Spencer, (D)Jon Amores , (D) Mark Hunt, (D ) William F. "Bill" Stemple, (D) Brent Boggs, (D) Sam Argento, (D) Joe Talbott, (D ) Bill Hartman, (D) Bill Proudfoot, (D) Doug Stalnaker, (D) Mary M. Poling, (D) Samuel J. "Sam" Cann, (D) Robert "Bob" Beach, (D) Larry A. Williams, (D)Stan Shaver, (D) Harold Michael, (D) Jerry L. Mezzatesta, (D) Bob Tabb, (D) Paul Kanjorski, (D) John Murtha,(D)Tim Holden, (D) Vincent Fumo, (D) Michael O'Pake, (D) Tom Scrimenti, (D) Joseph Markosek, (D) Frank Dermody, (D) Victor Lescovitz, (D) Timothy Solobay, (D) Peter Daley, (D) Lawrence Roberts, (D) James Shaner,(D) Joseph Petrarca, (D) James Casorio, (D) Thomas Tangretti, (D) Edward Wojnaroski, (D) Thomas Yewcic,
(D) Camille "Bud" George, (D) Michael Hanna, (D) Robert Belfanti, (D) James Wansacz, (D) Todd Eachus,(D)Kevin Blaum, (D) Neal Goodman, (D) Richard Grucela, (D) William T. Stachowski, (D) Ginny A. Fields,
(D) Robert K. Sweeney, (D) Aileen M. Gunther, (D) Bill Magee, (D) Darrel J. Aubertine, (D) Francine DelMonte,(D)Robin Schimminger, (D) William L. Parment, (D) Michael Michaud, (D) Bruce Bryant, (D) Christopher Hall,(D) John Martin, (D) Troy Jackson, (D) Rosaire Paradis, (D) Jeremy Fischer, (D) Raymond Wotton, (D) George Bunker, (D) John Wakin, (D) Edward Dugay, (D) Thomas Watson, (D) John Richardson, (D) Sonya Sampson, (D) Rodney Jennings, (D) Susanne Ketterer, (D) Janet Mills, (D) John Patrick, (D) Robert Duplessie, (D) Timothy Driscoll, (D) Elizabeth Ready, (D) Jeb Spaulding, (D) Dick Sears, (D) James Leddy, (D) Virginia Lyons, (D) Robert Starr, (D) Sara Kittell, (D) Richard Mazza, (D) Susan Bartlett, (D) Mark Macdonald, (D) Ann Cummings,(D) John Campbell, (D) Matt Dunne, (D) Peter Welch, (D) Alice Miller, (D) Jim Mccullough, (D) Mark Larson,
(D) John Patrick Tracy, (D) Albert Audette, (D) George Allard, (D) Richard Howrigan, (D) Avis Gervais,(D) Kathleen Keenan, (D) Albert Perry, (D) Floyd Nease, (D) Shap Smith, (D) John Rodgers, (D) Maxine Grad,(D) Harry Monti, (D) Tony Klein, (D) Michael Obuchowski, (D) Carolyn Partridge, (D) Steve Darrow, (D) Alice Emmons, (D) Jim Masland, (D) Alice Nitka, (D) Daniel Adams Eaton, (D) Roland J. Lefebvre, (D) Claire D. Clarke, (D) Robert E. Martel, (D) Dominick J. Ruggerio, (D) Frank A. Ciccone III, (D) Walter S. Felag Jr.,
(D) John F. McBurney III, (D) Joseph A. Montalbano, (D) Michael J. Damiani, (D) Roger Badeau, (D) Marc A. Cote, (D) John J. Tassoni Jr., (D) Joseph M. Polisena, (D) Beatrice A. Lanzi, (D) Michael J. McCaffrey,(D) Stephen D. Alves, (D) Leonidas P. Raptakis, (D) Peter G. Palumbo, (D) Robert B. Jacquard, (D) Matthew J. McHugh, (D) Brian Patrick Kennedy, (D) Stephen R. Ucci, (D) Joseph J. Voccola, (D) Peter J. Petrarca,(D) Roger A. Picard, (D) Arthur J. Corvese, (D) William San Bento Jr., (D) Jan Malik, (D) Michael B. Forte Jr.,
(D) Robert O'Leary, (D) Marc Pacheco, (D) Stephen Brewer, (D) Richard Moore, (D) William "Smitty" Pignatelli,(D)Stephen Kulik, (D) Daniel Keenan, (D) Peter Kocot, (D) Geoffrey Hall, (D) Patricia Walrath, (D) Stephen LeDuc, (D) William Greene, Jr., (D) Bruce Ayers, (D) William Galvin, (D) Garrett Bradley, (D) Christine Canavan,(D) Thomas O'Brien, (D) Brian Knuuttila, (D) Anne Gobi, (D) Harold Naughton, Jr., (D) John Fresolo, (D) Biagio "Billy" Ciotto, (D) Joan V. Hartley, (D) Tom Colapietro, (D) Antonio "Tony" Guerrera, (D) Brian J. O'Connor,(D)Edward E. Moukawsher, (D) Steven T. Mikutel, (D) Jack Malone, (D) Linda A. Orange, (D) Michael J. Cardin,(D)Stephen M. Jarmoc, (D) Peggy Sayers, (D) George M. Wilber, (D) Reginald G. Beamon, (D)Jeffrey J. Berger,(D) Roger Michele, (D) Kosta Diamantis, (D) John "Corky" Mazurek, (D) Emil "Buddy" Altobello, (D) Peter J. Panaroni Jr., (D) Stephen Dargan, (D) Louis Esposito Jr., (D) James Amann, (D) Richard Roy, (D) Terry Backer,(D) Kevin Ryan, (D) Ruth Ann Minner, (D) Anthony Deluca, (D) Robert Venables, SR , (D) Bethany Hall-Long,(D)John Vansant, (D) Michael Mulrooney, (D) John Viola,(D) Bruce Ennis.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=172118&mesg_id=172141
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Schweitzer#Political_positions


Assertion busted. Completely, totally, and unquestionably.

Next?

[HankyDubs]

145. the NRA is a right wing political organization

Which is why they support CPAC, though most of the speakers address topics on completely separate issues. Why would they support anti-choice groups, racist groups, war criminals if they weren't right wing?

The NRA supports right wing politicians, regardless of their party. As a legalized bribery organization, of course they work to bribe everyone in sight, and I'm sure they succeed in bribing many in both parties.

http://www.ontheissues.org/2004/Howard_Dean_Gun_Control.htm

Howard Dean supported the Assault weapons ban and the Brady Bill. He believes, as I do, that different laws should apply to different communities.

Donations from the NRA pac to other pacs:

2004 Joint State Victory Cmte $50,000
Republican National Cmte $30,000
National Republican Senatorial Cmte $30,000
National Republican Congressional Cmte $15,000
National Republican Congressional Cmte $15,000
US Smokeless Tobacco $9,950
Alliance for the West
(Affiliate: Larry E. Craig (R-Idaho)) $9,900
Together for Our Majority
(Affiliate: Thomas M. Reynolds (R-NY)) $8,450
Americans for a Republican Majority
(Affiliate: Tom DeLay (R-Texas)) $8,000
Blue Dog PAC $7,950
Storm Chasers
(Affiliate: Steve Buyer (R-Ind)) $7,450
New Republican Majority Fund
(Affiliate: Trent Lott (R-Miss)) $5,000
Republican Party of Tennessee $5,000
Bluegrass Cmte
(Affiliate: Mitch McConnell (R-Ky)) $5,000
Bob Barr Leadership Fund
(Affiliate: ex-Rep. Bob Barr (R-Ga)) $4,950
Republican Party of Illinois $4,950
Rely on Your Beliefs
(Affiliate: Roy Blunt (R-Mo)) $4,500
America's Foundation
(Affiliate: Rick Santorum (R-Pa)) $4,000
Vision for Tomorrow Fund $4,000
Glacier PAC
(Affiliate: Max Baucus (D-Mont)) $3,500
American Conservative Union $3,000
Principles Exalt A Nation PAC
(Affiliate: Mike Pence (R-Ind)) $2,500
Black America's PAC $2,500
Midnight Sun
(Affiliate: Don Young (R-Alaska)) $2,500
American Prosperity PAC
(Affiliate: Randy "Duke" Cunningham (R-Calif)) $2,000
Heart PAC
(Affiliate: Todd Tiahrt (R-Kan)) $2,000
Senate Majority Fund
(Affiliate: Jon L. Kyl (R-Ariz)) $2,000
Missouri Republican State Cmte $1,950
American Success PAC
(Affiliate: David Dreier (R-Calif)) $1,000
Every Republican is Crucial PAC
(Affiliate: Eric Cantor (R-Va)) $1,000
National Conservative Campaign Fund $1,000
Congressional Leadership Fund
(Affiliate: Chris Cox (R-Calif)) $1,000
Promoting Republicans You Can Elect
(Affiliate: Deborah Pryce (R-Ohio)) $1,000
Volunteer PAC
(Affiliate: Bill Frist (R-Tenn)) $1,000
Majority Initiative-Keep Electing Repubs
(Affiliate: Mike Rogers (R-Mich)) $1,000
Northern Lights PAC
(Affiliate: Ted Stevens (R-Alaska)) $1,000
Tallatchee Creek Inc
(Affiliate: Jeff Sessions (R-Ala)) $1,000
Republican Party of Minnesota $1,000
Senate Victory Fund
(Affiliate: Thad Cochran (R-Miss)) $1,000
Campaign for America's Future
(Affiliate: Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah)) $1,000
Stearns, Cliff $1,000

[beevul]

146. Is that the best you can do?

"The NRA supports right wing politicians, regardless of their party."

The nra also endorsed Schweitzer, Richardson, and those in the list below.

Are they all right wing?

Tell you what, start with Schweitzer, Richardson, and Howard Dean, and tell us all how they're right wing politicians.

Or, you could simply acknowledge that at best, you aren't telling the whole truth.


(D) Howard Dean (D) Mark L. Doumit,(D) Jim Hargrove, (D) Jean Berkey, (D)Brian Hatfield, (D) Brian Blake, (D) William 'Ike' Eickmeyer, (D) Joe Baca, (D) Mike Schneider, (D) Barbara Buckley, (D)Genie Ohrenschall,(D) Ellen Koivisto, (D) John Oceguera, (D) Jerry D. Claborn, (D)Richard D. Perkins, (D) Mo Denis, (D) David Parks, (D) James Alexander, (D) Gino White, (D)Wendy Jaquet, (D) Mike McGrath, (D) Jim Elliott, (D) Lane L. Larson, (D) Kim Gillan, (D) Paul Clark, (D)Brennan Ryan,(D)George Golie, (D) Bill Wilson, (D) John W. Parker,(D) Margarett H. Campbell, (D) Ralph L. Lenhart, (D) Gary Matthews, (D) Monica J. Lindeen, (D)Gary L. Forrester, (D) Jayne Mockler, (D) Larry Caller, (D) Keith Goodenough, (D) Ross Diercks, (D)George W. Bagby,(D)Marty Martin, (D)Ann Robinson,(D) *Mary Meyer Gilmore, (D) Bill Thompson, (D) Jim Matheson, (D)Mike Dmitrich, (D) Eli H. Anderson,(D)Laren "Larry" C. Livingston, (D) Carl Duckworth, (D) Brad King, (D)Linda Aguirre, (D) Marsha Arzberger, (D)Pete Campos, (D)Shannon Robinson, (D)Mary Kay Papen, (D)Phil Griego,(D)Patricia Lundstrom, (D)Dona Irwin, (D)Andrew Nunez, (D) Joseph Cervantes, (D)Pauline Ponce, (D)Thomas Swisstack, (D)Bob Hagedorn,(D)Lois Tochtrop, (D) Liane "Buffie" McFadyen, (D)Max Sandlin, (D)Nick Lampson, (D) Henry Cuellar, (D) Mark Homer, (D) Chuck Hopson, (D) Jim McReynolds, (D) Robby Cook, (D) Dan Ellis, (D)Patrick M. Rose, (D) John Mabry, (D) David Farabee, (D) James "Pete" Laney, (D) Mike Villarreal, (D) Kevin Bailey, (D) Dan Boren, (D) Jim Wilson, (D) *Jeff Rabon, (D)Richard Lerblance, (D)Susan Paddack, (D) Charlie Laster, (D) Mike Morgan, (D) Jerry Ellis, (D)Glen "Bud" Smithson, (D)Neil Brannon, (D) Mike Brown, (D)Joe Eddins, (D) Ben Sherrer, (D)Barbara Staggs, (D)Ray Miller,(D) Terry Harrison, (D)Paul Roan, (D) John Carey, (D) Dale Turner,(D) Bob Plunk, (D) John Young, (D) Danny Morgan, (D) Joe Sweeden,(D) Terry Hyman, (D) Raymond McCarter, (D)David Braddock, (D) James Covey, (D) Purcy Walker, (D) Abe Deutschendorf, (D) Roy "Butch" Hooper, (D) *Joe Dorman, (D)Lucky Lamons, (D) Darrell Gilbert, (D) John Auffet, (D) *Debbie Blackburn, (D)Rebecca Hamilton, (D)Al Lindley, (D) Mark Gilstrap, (D)Chris Steineger, (D) Jim Barone,(D) Anthony Hensley, (D) Henry Helgerson, (D) Doug Gatewood, (D)Robert Grant, (D) Bill Feuerborn, (D) Jerry Williams, (D) James Miller,(D) Bonnie Sharp, (D) Tom Burroughs, (D) Margaret Long, (D)Candy Ruff,
(D) Harold Lane, (D) Jerry Henry, (D) Sid Regnier, (D) Jim Ward, (D) Janice Pauls, (D) Dennis Mckinney, (D)Stephanie Herseth, (D)Jim Peterson, (D) Gil Koetzle, (D) Garry Moore, (D) Frank Kloucek, (D) David Sigdestad, (D) Dawn Jaeger, (D) Gerald Lange, (D) Richard Engels, (D) Mary Glenski, (D) Gary Stodelmon, (D) Dale Hargens, (D) Paul Valandra, (D) Thomas James Van Norman, (D) Mike Wilson, (D) David O'Connell, (D) Larry Robinson, (D)Joel Heitkamp, (D) Dorvan Solberg, (D) Lyle Hanson, (D)Joe Kroeber, (D) Ole Aarsvold, (D)Ralph Metcalf, (D) Arden Anderson, (D) Bill Amerman, (D)Pam Gulleson, (D) Collin Peterson, (DFL) Kent Eken, (DFL) Loren A. Solberg, (DFL) Tom Rukavina, (DFl) Anthony "Tony" Setich, (DFL) David Dill, (DFL) Paul Marquart, (DFL) Mary Ellen Otremba, (DFL) Al Juhnke, (DFL) Lyle Koenen, (D) Leonard Boswell, (D) John Kibbie, (D)Dick Dearden, (D)Eugene Fraise, (D) Michael Gronstal, (D) Greg Stevens, (D) Marcella Frevert, (D) Dolores Mertz, (D) Roger Thomas, (D) Dick Taylor, (D) Geri Huser, (D) Jim Lykam, (D) Philip Wise, (D) Kurt Swaim, (D) Paul Shomshor, (D) Ike Skelton, (D) Victor Callahan, (D) Jim Whorton, (D) Rachel Bringer, (D)Wes Shoemyer, (D)Terry Witte, (D) Wayne Henke, (D) Thomas Green, (D) Gary Kelly, (D) Mike Sager, (D) Terry Young, (D) Ray Salva, (d)Paul LeVota, (D) Curt Dougherty, (D) Al Liese, (D) Allen Icet, (D) Tim Meadows, (D) Ron Casey, (D) Wes Wagner,(D) Harold Selby, (D) Belinda Harris, (D) Frank Barnitz, (D) J.C. Kuessner, (D) Terry Swinger, (D) Mike Ross, (D) Randy Laverty, (D) Jack Crichter,
(D)Jim Hill, (D) Jimmy Jeffres, (D)Gene Jeffress, (D) Percy Malone,
(D) Ken Cowling, (D) Robert Jeffrey, (D)Randy Rankin, (D) Lenville Evans, (D) Jay Bradford, (D)Scott Sullivan, (D) Dewayne Mack, (D)Bob Mathis,(D) Dawn Creekmore, (D) Dwight Fite, (D) Janet Johnson, (D) Sandra Prater, (D) Jeff Wood, (D)Will Bond, (D) Preston Scroggin,
(D)David Evans, (D) David Dunn, (D) Wayne Nichols,(D)Leroy Dangeau,
(D) Bill Stovall, (D) Charles Ormond, (D) Travis Boyd, (D) Dave Obey,
(D)Roger Breske, (D )Robert W. Wirch, (D) Julie Lassa, (D) Terry Van Akkeren, (D) John P. Steinbrink, (D ) Amy Sue Vruwink, (D) Marlin D. Schneider, (D)Barbara Gronemus, (D) Jerry Costello, (D) Pat Welch,
(D)William Haine, (D)Gary Forby, (D) Jack Franks, (D) Mike Boland,
(D)Patrick Verschoore, (D)Careen Gordon,(D)Frank Mautino, (D)Lisa Dugan, (D) Michael Smith, (D) Gary Hannig, (D) Robert Flider, (D) Kurt Granberg, (D) Bill Grunloh, (D)Steve Davis,(D)Jay Hoffman, (D) Thomas Holbrook, (D) Dan Reitz, (D) John Bradley, (D) Brandon Phelps,
(D)Gene Taylor, (D) Bud Cramer, (D) Sanford Bishop, (D) Tim Golden,
(D)Michael S. Meyer Von Bremen, (D) Steve Thompson, (D) Valencia Seay, (D)Steve Henson, (D) Mike Snow, (D) Barbara Massey Reece, (D) Buddy Childers, (D) Bill Cummings, (D) Jeanette Jamieson, (D) Don Wix, (D) *Stephanie Stuckey Benfield, (D) Hugh Floyd, (D) R. M. Channell, (D) Curtis S. Jenkins, (D) Lee Howell, (D) Robert F. Ray, (D) Bobby Eugene Parham, (D) Jimmy Lord, (D) Dubose Porter, (D) Johnny W. Floyd, (D) Greg Morris, (D) Penny Houston, (D) Ellis Black, (D) Ron Borders, (D) Jay Shaw, (D) Hinson Mosley, (D) Allen Boyd,
(D) Will S. Kendrick, (D) Dwight Stansel, (D) Sheri Mcinvale, (D) Lincoln Davis, (D) Jim Cooper, (D) Bart Gordon, (D) John Tanner, (D ) Tommy Kilby, (D ) Jerry W. Cooper , (D ) Jo Ann Graves, (D ) Rosalind Kurita,(D) Roy Herron, (D ) John S. Wilder, Sr., (D ) Harry Tindell, (D) Dennis Ferguson, (D ) Jim Hackworth, (D ) George Fraley, (D ) Frank Buck, (D ) John Mark Windle, (D ) Jere L. Hargrove, (D ) Charles Curtiss, (D ) Mike McDonald, (D) Stratton Bone, (D) Michael L. Turner, (D ) Ben West, Jr., (D ) Curt Cobb, (D ) Joe Fowlkes,(D) Eugene E. (Gene) Davidson, (D) David A. Shepard, (D) John C. Tidwell, (D ) Willie (Butch) Borchert, (D) Mark L. Maddox, (D) Phillip Pinion, (D) Craig Fitzhugh, (D) Ben Chandler, (D) Dennis L. Null, (D) Joey Pendleton, (D) Walter "Doc" Blevins, (D) Johnny Ray Turner, (D) Ray S. JonesII, (D) Denise Harper Angel,
(D ) Charles Geveden, (D) Fred Nesler, (D) Frank Rasche, (D) Mike Cherry, (D) *J.R. Gray, (D) *John A. Arnold JR., (D) *James E. Bruce, (D) *Joseph E. "EDDIE" Ballard, (D) Gross Clay Lindsay, (D) *Jim Gooch JR, (D)Tommy Thompson, (D) Brent Yonts, (D) Dottie J. Sims, (D) Jody Richards, (D) Rogers Thomas, (D) Rob Wilkey, (D) Jimmie Lee, (D) James H. Thompson, (D) Steve Riggs, (D) Perry B. Clark, (D) Robert R. Damron, (D) Rick W. Rand, (D) Royce W. Adams,(D) Charlie Hoffman, (D) Arnold R. Simpson, (D) Mitchel B. "Mike" Denham, (D) John Will Stacy, (D) Carolyn Belcher, (D) Don Pasley, (D) Adrian K. Arnold,(D)Susan Westrom, (D) Harry Moberly JR, (D) Rick Nelson, (D) Ted "TEDDY" Edmonds,(D)Ancel Smith, (D) W. Keith Hall, (D) Charles "CHUCK" Meade, (D) Robin L. Webb, (D) Hubert Collins , (D) Tanya Pullin, (D) Rocky Adkins, (D) Baron Hill , (D) Craig Fry, (D) Patrick Bauer, (D) Thomas Kromkowski, (D) Scott Pelath, (D) Dan Stevenson, (D) Chester Dobis, (D) Robert Kuzman, (D) Joe Micon, (D) Sheila Klinker, (D) Ron Herrell, (D) Ron Liggett, (D) Tiny Adams, (D) Terri Jo Austin, (D) Scott Reske, (D) Dale Grubb, (D) Clyde Kersey, (D) Alan Chowning, (D) Phil Pflum, (D) Peggy Welch, (D) Jerry Denbo, (D) Dave Crooks, (D) John Gregory Frenz A, (D) Terry Goodin, (D) Robert Bischoff, (D) Markt Lytle, (D) Paul Robertson, (D) James Bottorff, (D) William Cochran, (D) Dennie Oxley, (D) Russ Stilwell, (D) Dennis Avery, (D) Trent VanHaaften, (D) Win Moses Jr., (D) Ted Strickland, (D) Kimberly Zurz, (D) Charlie Wilson (D) Marc Dann, (D) Kenneth Carano, (D) John Boccieri, (D) William Hartnett, (D) Derrick Seaver, (D) Todd Book, (D) John Domenick, (D) L. George Distel, (D) John Dingell, (D) John J. Gleason, (D) Doug Bennett, (D) Jennifer Elkins, (D) Matt Gillard, (D) Stephen Adamini, (D) Rich Brown, (D) John W. Drummond, (D) Glenn Reese, (D) Linda H. Short, (D) Thomas L. Moore, (D) NikkiI Setzler, (D) Gerald Molloy, (D) Kent Williams, (D) John Yancey Mcgill, (D) John C. Land III, (D) *E. Dewitt Mccraw,
(D) *Olin R. Phillips, (D) Walt Mcleod, (D) Mike Anthony, (D) Herb Kirsh, (D) Douglas Jennings, JR., (D) Denny W. Neilson, (D) James A. "JIM" Battle, JR., (D) C. Alex Harvin III, (D) Jimmy C. Bales, (D) Thomas N. Rhoad, (D) Harry L. Ott, JR., (D) Bill Bowers, (D) Mike Easley, (D) Beverly Perdue, (D) Roy Cooper,(D) Mike Mcintyre, (D) Marc Basnight, (D) Scott Thomas, (D) Clark Jenkins, (D) Robert Holloman, (D) Cecil Hargett, JR., (D) R. C. Soles, JR., (D) Charles Albertson, (D) A. B. Swindell, (D) Tony Rand, (D) Daniel Clodfelter,
(D) David Hoyle, (D) Walter Dalton, (D) Joe Queen, (D) Martin Nesbitt, (D) Bill Owens, JR, (D) Bill Culpepper, III, (D)Alice Underhill, (D) Russell Tucker, (D) Arthur Williams, III, (D) Edith Warren, (D) Marian Mclawhorn, (D) William Wainwright, (D) Dewey Hill, (D) Edd Nye, (D) Joe Tolson, (D) Jim Crawford, (D) Marvin W Lucas,
(D) Douglas Yongue, (D) Ronnie Sutton, (D) Lucy Allen, (D) Earl Jones, (D) Alice Bordsen, (D) Pryor Gibson,(D) Lorene Coates, (D) Hugh Holliman, (D) Walt Church, (D) Jim Harrell, (D) James Black, (D) Bob England,(D)D. Bruce Goforth, (D) Rick Boucher, (D ) Joe Manchin, III, (D ) Darrell McGraw, (D) Alan Mollohan, (D) Nick Rahall, (D) Jeffrey V. Kessler, (D) Robert H. "Bob" Plymale, (D) John Pat Fanning , (D) Earl Ray Tomblin, (D ) Billy Wayne Bailey, Jr., (D) Anita Skeens Caldwell, (D) Shirley Love, (D) Bill Sharpe, (D) Roman W. Prezioso, Jr. (D)Jon Blair Hunter, (D) Mike Ross , (D ) Joe DeLong, (D) Randy Swartzmiller, (D) Tim Ennis, (D) Kenneth D. Tucker, (D) Scott G. Varner, (D) Dave Pethtel, (D) J.D. Beane, (D) Brady R. Paxton, (D ) Kevin J. Craig, (D) Jim Morgan, (D) Don Perdue, (D ) Joe C. Ferrell , (D ) K. Steven Kominar, (D ) Harry Keith White, (D) Richard Browning, (D) W. Richard "Rick" Staton, (D) Eustace Frederick , (D) Marshall Long, (D) Gerald L. Crosier,
(D) *Virginia Mann, (D) *Robert S. Kiss, (D) Ron Thompson, (D) Thomas W. Campbell, (D ) Tom Louisos, (D) David G. Perry, (D) John Pino , (D) Sharon Spencer, (D)Jon Amores , (D) Mark Hunt, (D ) William F. "Bill" Stemple, (D) Brent Boggs, (D) Sam Argento, (D) Joe Talbott, (D ) Bill Hartman, (D) Bill Proudfoot, (D) Doug Stalnaker, (D) Mary M. Poling, (D) Samuel J. "Sam" Cann, (D) Robert "Bob" Beach, (D) Larry A. Williams, (D)Stan Shaver, (D) Harold Michael, (D) Jerry L. Mezzatesta, (D) Bob Tabb, (D) Paul Kanjorski, (D) John Murtha,(D)Tim Holden, (D) Vincent Fumo, (D) Michael O'Pake, (D) Tom Scrimenti, (D) Joseph Markosek, (D) Frank Dermody, (D) Victor Lescovitz, (D) Timothy Solobay, (D) Peter Daley, (D) Lawrence Roberts, (D) James Shaner,(D) Joseph Petrarca, (D) James Casorio, (D) Thomas Tangretti, (D) Edward Wojnaroski, (D) Thomas Yewcic,
(D) Camille "Bud" George, (D) Michael Hanna, (D) Robert Belfanti, (D) James Wansacz, (D) Todd Eachus,(D)Kevin Blaum, (D) Neal Goodman, (D) Richard Grucela, (D) William T. Stachowski, (D) Ginny A. Fields,
(D) Robert K. Sweeney, (D) Aileen M. Gunther, (D) Bill Magee, (D) Darrel J. Aubertine, (D) Francine DelMonte,(D)Robin Schimminger, (D) William L. Parment, (D) Michael Michaud, (D) Bruce Bryant, (D) Christopher Hall,(D) John Martin, (D) Troy Jackson, (D) Rosaire Paradis, (D) Jeremy Fischer, (D) Raymond Wotton, (D) George Bunker, (D) John Wakin, (D) Edward Dugay, (D) Thomas Watson, (D) John Richardson, (D) Sonya Sampson, (D) Rodney Jennings, (D) Susanne Ketterer, (D) Janet Mills, (D) John Patrick, (D) Robert Duplessie, (D) Timothy Driscoll, (D) Elizabeth Ready, (D) Jeb Spaulding, (D) Dick Sears, (D) James Leddy, (D) Virginia Lyons, (D) Robert Starr, (D) Sara Kittell, (D) Richard Mazza, (D) Susan Bartlett, (D) Mark Macdonald, (D) Ann Cummings,(D) John Campbell, (D) Matt Dunne, (D) Peter Welch, (D) Alice Miller, (D) Jim Mccullough, (D) Mark Larson,
(D) John Patrick Tracy, (D) Albert Audette, (D) George Allard, (D) Richard Howrigan, (D) Avis Gervais,(D) Kathleen Keenan, (D) Albert Perry, (D) Floyd Nease, (D) Shap Smith, (D) John Rodgers, (D) Maxine Grad,(D) Harry Monti, (D) Tony Klein, (D) Michael Obuchowski, (D) Carolyn Partridge, (D) Steve Darrow, (D) Alice Emmons, (D) Jim Masland, (D) Alice Nitka, (D) Daniel Adams Eaton, (D) Roland J. Lefebvre, (D) Claire D. Clarke, (D) Robert E. Martel, (D) Dominick J. Ruggerio, (D) Frank A. Ciccone III, (D) Walter S. Felag Jr.,
(D) John F. McBurney III, (D) Joseph A. Montalbano, (D) Michael J. Damiani, (D) Roger Badeau, (D) Marc A. Cote, (D) John J. Tassoni Jr., (D) Joseph M. Polisena, (D) Beatrice A. Lanzi, (D) Michael J. McCaffrey,(D) Stephen D. Alves, (D) Leonidas P. Raptakis, (D) Peter G. Palumbo, (D) Robert B. Jacquard, (D) Matthew J. McHugh, (D) Brian Patrick Kennedy, (D) Stephen R. Ucci, (D) Joseph J. Voccola, (D) Peter J. Petrarca,(D) Roger A. Picard, (D) Arthur J. Corvese, (D) William San Bento Jr., (D) Jan Malik, (D) Michael B. Forte Jr.,
(D) Robert O'Leary, (D) Marc Pacheco, (D) Stephen Brewer, (D) Richard Moore, (D) William "Smitty" Pignatelli,(D)Stephen Kulik, (D) Daniel Keenan, (D) Peter Kocot, (D) Geoffrey Hall, (D) Patricia Walrath, (D) Stephen LeDuc, (D) William Greene, Jr., (D) Bruce Ayers, (D) William Galvin, (D) Garrett Bradley, (D) Christine Canavan,(D) Thomas O'Brien, (D) Brian Knuuttila, (D) Anne Gobi, (D) Harold Naughton, Jr., (D) John Fresolo, (D) Biagio "Billy" Ciotto, (D) Joan V. Hartley, (D) Tom Colapietro, (D) Antonio "Tony" Guerrera, (D) Brian J. O'Connor,(D)Edward E. Moukawsher, (D) Steven T. Mikutel, (D) Jack Malone, (D) Linda A. Orange, (D) Michael J. Cardin,(D)Stephen M. Jarmoc, (D) Peggy Sayers, (D) George M. Wilber, (D) Reginald G. Beamon, (D)Jeffrey J. Berger,(D) Roger Michele, (D) Kosta Diamantis, (D) John "Corky" Mazurek, (D) Emil "Buddy" Altobello, (D) Peter J. Panaroni Jr., (D) Stephen Dargan, (D) Louis Esposito Jr., (D) James Amann, (D) Richard Roy, (D) Terry Backer,(D) Kevin Ryan, (D) Ruth Ann Minner, (D) Anthony Deluca, (D) Robert Venables, SR , (D) Bethany Hall-Long,(D)John Vansant, (D) Michael Mulrooney, (D) John Viola,(D) Bruce Ennis.

Assertion busted. Completely, totally, and inarguably, busted.

[HankyDubs]

147. Still refusing

to address the CPAC issue.

Big surprise.

[beevul]

148. Quite to the contrary, in fact.

Quite to the contrary, in fact. I've debunked your central point. That:

"We all know the NRA was there, because the NRA is a right-wing political organization."


I've given quite sufficient evidence that the nra is NOT in fact a right wing political group.

Of course, you haven't touched on any of the evidence I have presented.

Start with howard Dean.

Why would a right wing organization endorse Howard Dean?

Why would a right wing organization endorse Brian Schweitzer?

Why would a right wing organization endorse Bill Richardson?


Go ahead, take a stab, don't be shy.

[HankyDubs]

149. questions

about your list.

Where does it come from? Did you compile it yourself? If not, why did you not link me to your source? If you have no source, why would I trust your claims?

What does it represent? Does it represent democrats endorsed over republicans? Does it represent democrats who recieved campaign cash when they were running against republicans who did not get cash from the NRA? Does it merely represent candidates who recieved good "grades" from the NRA...when their opponent was also given such a grade and given large amounts of cash as well?

The fact that you didn't address any of these issues makes your claims quite dubious.

And no, you never ever addressed the CPAC issue.

[beevul]

152. Of course.

"Where does it come from? Did you compile it yourself? If not, why did you not link me to your source? If you have no source, why would I trust your claims?"

I DID link to it, but you did not bother, apparently, to follow those links.

"What does it represent? Does it represent democrats endorsed over republicans? Does it represent democrats who recieved campaign cash when they were running against republicans who did not get cash from the NRA? Does it merely represent candidates who recieved good "grades" from the NRA...when their opponent was also given such a grade and given large amounts of cash as well?"

How about following the link and figuring it out.

"The fact that you didn't address any of these issues makes your claims quite dubious."

The fact, is that there is simply no way on earth, that you can claim all those Democrats that were endorsed are right wing, particularly Dean, Richardson, and Schweitzer.

Logically, it follows that a right wing group would not endorse those which are not right wing.

Dean, Richardson, and Schweitzer are not right wing, and yet were endorsed.


"And no, you never ever addressed the CPAC issue."

Every time I show a Democrat endorsed by the nra, I address the central core of your point. I destroy it, in fact.

Richardson, Schweitzer, and Dean, utterly destroy the underlying premise of your "cpac" argument.

I'm sorry I'm addressing it in a way you don't like and refuse to acknowledge, but I AM addressing it.

You've been proven wrong. Your point has been proven wrong. Your premise, utterly dismantled.


By all means though, keep pretending otherwise.

It entertains me.

[HankyDubs]

155. actually

I don't see anwyere what your source for this list is. I have followed your links, see no documentation for this list. If you have it, please provide it. If you don't, it must be dismissed, since you didn't provide any context. If I am asked for the source of any claim I make and refuse to provide sourcing, my claims should also be dismissed.

Do you have documentation?

You didn't address any of my questions, either. Not one of them.

From what I can tell, the NRA never gave money to Howard Dean, or endorsed him over any republican, but merely awarded him an A grade. Had Dean won the presidential nomination that year, no person in their right mind believes that a supporter of the brady bill and AWB (Dean supported both) would have been endorsed over GWB.

I'm talking about endorsements of democrats over republican opponents, cash donations to real liberal democrats, not blue dogs like Schweitzer.

[beevul]

158. I really do not care.

"I don't see anwyere what your source for this list is. I have followed your links, see no documentation for this list. If you have it, please provide it."

That list is from the nra itself, and if you'd have bothered to read that thread, you wouldn't be asking.

You see, this discussion, and claims like the one you are attempting to make, have been tried before. That list refuted it then in 2004 in the thread i linked, and refutes it now.

You aren't coming up with anything new, you understand?

I mean, I'm sure you think this is some grand new tact your taking, and I'm sure you think your being clever and crafty, but you really aren't.

This argument has been played out a hundred times in this very forum - both under the forum headings of J/PS and GUNS.

Your side of the argument has not won it. Not even once.


"If you don't, it must be dismissed, since you didn't provide any context. If I am asked for the source of any claim I make and refuse to provide sourcing, my claims should also be dismissed."

And your claims usually are dismissed.

" From what I can tell, the NRA never gave money to Howard Dean, or endorsed him over any republican, but merely awarded him an A grade. Had Dean won the presidential nomination that year, no person in their right mind believes that a supporter of the brady bill and AWB (Dean supported both) would have been endorsed over GWB."

Dean was endorsed 8 times by the nra, as governor of VT. Wait, they endorsed a Democrat that supported the AWB?

How right wing of them. :eyes:


"I'm talking about endorsements of democrats over republican opponents, cash donations to real liberal democrats, not blue dogs like Schweitzer."

I really don't CARE what your talking about, because you do not get to set criteria for what it takes to break your premise.

Your premise has been broken.

Deal with it.

[HankyDubs]

160. So you refuse

To provide documentation or to answer the perfectly reasonable questions I asked.

This is extremely dishonest, you have just disqualified yourself on this thread.

"I really don't CARE what your talking about, because you do not get to set criteria for what it takes to break your premise."

Actually I do get to set that criteria, since I set the premise. That premise being...the NRA is a right wing political organization...that allys itself with war criminals, white supremacists and religious bigots.

CPAC support, never addressed. List, never provided in any context.

Defeated though your own dishonesty.

PS: This is a little bugaboo for me, when you use "your" incorrectly. Please note that "you're" = you are and "your" is a personal pronoun indicating posession. Not that this invalidates anything you said (you did that yourself by refusing to source your claims), but it is annoying to me to see this mistake so often.

[X_Digger]

162. You can't be bothered to click and read?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x103881#103983

^ I made it easy for ya, by linking to the actual post in the thread quoted above..

[HankyDubs]

164. this isn't a link

to the information I was seeking. It's not a link to the source of the list, which might place this claim in context or answer the questions I asked.

It's a link to the NRA-PVF's homepage. That doesn't cut it. You know that doesn't cut it.

[X_Digger]

166. "I don't see anwyere what your source for this list is." -- asked and answered.

Feel free to put those goal posts down any time, they must be heavy.

[beevul]

168. Isn't it great?

I actually got those names from the nra pvf page 8 years ago, myself.


And he says "that doesn't cut it rofl.

I think hed have people believing that there was a better source to ask who the nra endorsed, than the nra itself.

[X_Digger]

170. None so blind as those who will not see. n/t

[beevul]

163. Nope.

I told you where to look. That you have not found it, simply means that you have not found it. It does not on the other hand mean its not there.

"This is extremely dishonest, you have just disqualified yourself on this thread."

BWAhahahahahahaha.

Thanks for the laugh. I'd give more weight on the DEA opinion of drugs than I would on yours of honesty.

"That premise being...the NRA is a right wing political organization..."


In case you hadn't noticed, evidence has been provided, that shows the nra doing things a right wing organization would not do.

That in itself disproves your assertion, as it is written, as I have quoted above. You do not, by virtue of having set that premise, get to simply sweep that under the rug, or claim it does not refute what you said.

It does refute what you said.

Game set and match.

"CPAC support, never addressed. List, never provided in any context."

It was addressed, just not in a way you like. You see, in showing that the nra also endorsed Democrats that NO sane person could call right wing, it deconstructs your asserting that "the nra is right wing", and shows clearly that their presence at the cpac does not mean what you imply it does.


"Defeated though your own dishonesty."

ROFL.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[HankyDubs]

165. Of course

You will bluster, because that's about all you ever do, but you didn't actually link to the list...ever. If you have a link to this list, by all means I'd love to see it. But now you're just obfuscating and telling me I just go and look for a link that presumably you could provide, since you must have copypasted this from somewhere. Instead of being snotty, I would simply provide the link to the information...if I had such information.

See when I was asked for proof that the NRA was laying down with white supremacists, war criminals and religious bigots at CPAC, I provided links to prove exactly what I was saying. You didn't do that...because you're somewhat honesty challenged.

Good night to you. I'll check back tomorrow and see if you wanted to link to the location of this list which places it in its proper context.

[beevul]

167. I linked it the very first time I addressed it.

"You will bluster, because that's about all you ever do, but you didn't actually link to the list...ever. If you have a link to this list, by all means I'd love to see it. But now you're just obfuscating and telling me I just go and look for a link that presumably you could provide, since you must have copypasted this from somewhere. Instead of being snotty, I would simply provide the link to the information...if I had such information."

I provided a link to this same discussion happening 8 years ago, here on DU, and within that discussion, had you bothered to read it, the source of those names is posted, by me.

Yesm virginia, it's a link to the NRA-PVF's homepage. I myself copied and pasted those names from nrapvf homepage, some 8 years ago. Hows that for proper context?

Who else should I be asking about who the nra did or did not endorse?

Do you have a better source?

I thought not.

"See when I was asked for proof that the NRA was laying down with white supremacists, war criminals and religious bigots at CPAC, I provided links to prove exactly what I was saying. You didn't do that...because you're somewhat honesty challenged."

No, you didn't bother reading. Calling me "honesty challenged" while supporting a crooked fact devoid movement and its underhanded agenda yourself...well...everyone gets the picture, even if you don't.

[HankyDubs]

175. So its outright refusal

with the "trust me" guarantee! So let's set that stankin bullshit aside and look at some more evidence.

"A new gun law being considered in Congress, if aligned with Department of Homeland Security memos labeling everyday Americans as potential "threats," could potentially deny firearms to pro lifers, gun rights advocates, tax protesters, animal rights activists, and a host of others -- any already on the expansive DHS watch list for potential "extremism."
Read About It: WorldNetDaily

http://www.nraila.org/news/read/inthenews.aspx?id=12470

Right wing shreiking on the NRA-ILA site--COMPLETE WITH WORLDNUT DAILY LINK!
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Back in 2001, National Rifle Association President Wayne LaPierre traveled to Lynchburg, Virginia where he appeared on Jerry Falwell's television program and presented him with a lifetime membership to the National Rifle Association..."

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/groups/nra

What do I need to add here? LaPierre and Falwell...smooch!
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/05/17/nra-obama-second-amendment/

"Indeed, right-wing leaders brought their inflammatory rhetoric to this year’s conference. NRA favorite Ted Nugent repeatedly claimed that “there’s a Marxist in the White House,” while Palin and Beck entertained thousands of NRA members with classic anti-Obama one-liners.

PALIN: Don’t doubt for a minute that, if they thought they could get away with it, they would ban guns and ban ammunition and gut the Second Amendment.

BECK: The people that we have running the country, these are not Democrats. These are revolutionaries! They are Marxist revolutionaries!"

Yup, at the NRA convention, invitees included Palin and Ted "Nazi" Nugent, as well as the other classic right wing whores (no offense to sex workers) like Gingrich and Beck.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/05/14/blackwater-nra/

"The convention has attracted speakers like former Alaska governor Sarah Palin and Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour (R), as well as a significant number of exhibitors selling all sorts of gun and gun-related paraphernalia.

ThinkProgress is at the convention and noticed a booth for Blackwater, the contractor that became infamous after one of its convoys in Baghdad opened fire in a crowded square in 2007 and killed 17 Iraqi civilians. Despite this dangerous legacy, ThinkProgress’s Ben Armbruster noticed that the company was proudly displaying assault rifles today:"

Yes...Blackwater! Now there's a librul organization!
________________________________________________________________________________
"The Time reporter asked one Ohio militia officer what government action the militia is defending against. He replied, "Most likely it will start when the government tries to take our guns." Of course, the NRA stands alone in its ability to inspire hysterical fears of gun confiscation. During the last Presidential campaign, the NRA maintained a www.gunbanobama.com website and its delusional rhetoric about the Administration's supposed gun-banning intentions has been unrelenting. Looking forward to the upcoming elections, LaPierre seeks to rally the NRA troops by warning of "dark clouds on the horizon," with Democrats "lying in the weeds in wait to pick their time to destroy this freedom."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dennis-a-henigan/right-wing-militias-and-t_b_756250.html

Hysterical fear? Right wing militia groups? Liberals lying in the weeds? Sounds like left wing propaganda...
__________________________________________________________________________________________________

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ray-schoenke/oh-what-a-mighty-web-the-_b_89646.html

"A former assistant NRA general counsel and top lobbyist for the gun industry, Bob stepped forward a few years ago and went public about the NRA/gun industry conspiracy of silence and their refusal to address the problem of corrupt gun dealers who sell guns to criminals. NRA has long had it out for Bob after he was quoted in the New York Times as saying someone in the gun industry needed to speak up about bad dealers because ''we've got a bunch of right-wing wackos at the N.R.A. controlling everything..."

...Over the last twenty years however, the organization has changed dramatically. Their leaders call our first responders "jack booted thugs"; they fight efforts to restrict armor piercing handgun ammunition that threaten cops; they oppose background checks on all sales at gun shows; they opposed voluntary industry efforts to provide free child safety locks with all new guns sold; they oppose efforts to keep guns out of the hands of terrorists; they want to repeal restrictions on keeping guns out of bars and restaurants when liquor is served; they want to force employers to allow guns in the work place; they oppose efforts of our nation's big city mayor's to stop illegal gun traffickers; and, incredibly, they want to criminalize efforts by law enforcement to share crime gun trace information. This is just a short list that more than justifies labels like "right wing whackos."

From a progressive gun rights organization called the AHSA. This sentiment has been echoed here by several REAL progressives on the gungeon who are pro-gun...who are no longer members since the NRA started paying Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich to speak at their national convention.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

http://unionreview.com/mccain-and-nra-are-soul-mates-union-busting

"Ricca named names of NRA top guns who are openly anti-union. She quoted Neal Knox, former NRA vice president. He bragged that the gun issue "is the one thing that will spin the blue-collar union member away from his union." Ricca also wrote that before Grover Norquist joined the NRA board, he led anti-union "paycheck protection" ballot initiatives in a number of states."

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=15

The NRA is also anti-Union, features Grover Norquist on their board, lists the AFL-CIO on an enemies list...this was helpful for me to know since so many gungeon inhabitants pretend that the NRA is somehow pro-union. Also on the enemies list...The Anti-defamation league, the American Federation of teachers...and just about every other decent progressive organization in the country.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________
And this was amusing, I thought:

http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/bcam/gunlobby/nra/NRA-1st-Freedom-Beck-Palin.pdf

Yup, the NRA supported Glenn Beck's Freedumb rally.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201007260065

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

So Grover Norquist on its board, inviting FOXNEWS personalities and Blackwater to its national convention, placing Unions on an enemies list, placing links to Worldnutdaily on its own site...and helping pimp Glenn Beck's disgraceful rally.

Not right wing? Don't make me laugh.

PS: Note here, beevul, that all these references I refer to can be FOUND. You can research any of the claims I made because I LINKED TO THE ACTUAL INFORMATION, not some homepage without said information.

[beevul]

180. Aww, poor Mrbenc...err...hankie, you still don't get it.

I myself got those names from the nrapvf website.

I copied them, and I pasted them.

At that time, one could view, on that website, who the nra endorsed.

So sorry you can't seem to understand that.

If you would bother to read the actual thread, you might get it.


As to the rest of your post...occasionally, you let slip...forget who you are now...and revert to your...um...habits.

I find it quite entertaining watching it.

It must be a real hardship having to hold back, not using the words "festooned" and "pantload", etc.

Yes, very entertaining.

Yup.

[PavePusher]

177. Bump the needle arm...

your record is stuck on "stupid".

[X_Digger]

107. Ooh, Carnac is in the house!

Quick, what am I thinking.. now!

[HankyDubs]

108. how many times can xdigger avoid discussing the subject?

Two so far.

[X_Digger]

112. Try talking _to_ me, rather than _about_ me, and you might get a response..

But I actually did respond, post 109.

[friendly_iconoclast]

171. I must say I've never seen someone so determined to defend an association fallacy.

But that's okay. We understand these are desperate times for your sort....

[HankyDubs]

176. Its not association, it's sponsorship

[LAGC]

173. I'll admit, I've been reluctant to join the NRA because of shit like this...

I've been a heavily contributing card-carrying ACLU member for the better part of 14 years, I just wish they'd support the entire Bill of Rights, not selectively ignore the 2nd Amendment, as there would then be no need for the NRA.

I appreciate the overall agenda of the NRA in promoting/supporting gun rights, including tacking pro-gun rights riders to unrelated legislation, but by giving them money and knowing that 80% of it is going to be redirected to Republicans who DON'T support the rest of the Bill of Rights, that I cannot stomach. I know half the problem is that too many Democrats aren't as supportive of the 2nd Amendment as they should be, and I hope the NRA continues to haunt them for their authoritarian stance.

But I mean, at least the ACLU doesn't actively campaign against the Second Amendment and for more gun control, they just take a neutral stance. So its not like I'm undermining what the left hand is doing with the right hand by giving them money. But many of the Republicans that the NRA endorses based on their RKBA stance alone are out-right hostile to other civil liberties and I just can't fathom helping them towards victory with my donations.

I really hope the tide continues to change, and more Democrats come around on this issue, as I'm sure they will get more NRA support. But until we get closer to 50% donations going to Democrats, I am loathe to support them. I realize this is largely a self-fulfilling prophecy, that is, if we don't push more Democrats to become more friendly to gun rights, the NRA will likely support their opponents by default.

All we can do is keep pushing for change and awareness, both within the ACLU and the NRA, and Democratic candidates in general.

[jpak]

174. Nancy Reagan

gun violence survivor spouse

:D

[slackmaster]

182. That's actually the closest anyone has come to a correct answer in this thread

She would fit right in with the Brady people.

[jpak]

184. Stop spamming this forum you anti-gun troll!!!1111

:sarcasm:

:yourock: