Brady Campaign launches "Second Amendment Fantasy" PR drive to blunt DC gun ruling

[derby378]

The Legal Action Project of the Brady Center to Prevent Violence is launching a multi-part online critique of the D.C. Circuit's recent Parker opinion, the only federal appeals court decision in American history to strike down a gun law as a violation of the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Read more here, if you wish:

http://www.bradycampaign.org

[benEzra]

1. The lengths to which they're going to defend an absolute ban

on the possession of ANY functioning firearm IN YOUR OWN HOME, shows pretty much where they would like the rest of the U.S. to look like...

The Brady Campaign is sliding into complete irrelevance. I think the adoption of the VPC's bait-and-switch tactics in the late '80s/early '90s destroyed the credibility and rationality they had.

Background checks were a good idea, and they ran well with it. On the other hand, bans on protruding rifle handgrips, .22 centerfire pistols, post-1861 magazine capacities, etc., were idiotic causes to take up in the first place.

[derby378]

2. Right now, they're focusing on the MILLER arguments in relation to PARKER

As of yet, I can't see where they've made any good points. Are they still trying to tell us that the US v. Miller decision says that the Second Amendment doesn't mean what it says?

[virginia mountainman]

3. I guess

Anything less than a total ban is not "reasonable" or "common sense"..

After all that is what they say they want....Repuke bastards.

[iverglas]

7. gee, way to endear yourself to the base

"Repuke bastards"

Yes, that's what the majority of Democratic Party voters, who support firearms control and the kinds of measures advocated by the Brady Campaign, like to hear themselves being called by, er, fellow Democrats.

Excellent tactic. Spread it around, and you might attract 3 Republican votes somewhere to the Democratic Party ... which won't really matter, since all the real Democrats will be staying home anyhow.

[thirdpower]

8. So you're saying..

that Democrats really do support gun bans and frivolous lawsuits? Those are the "measures advocated by the Brady Campaign". I guess that's why they have a membership of only 50K nationwide. Everyone must be staying home.

[iverglas]

10. to you?

Absolutely nothing is what I'm saying. That brick wall is just far too impermeable.

[aikoaiko]

4. Brady's are worried because Miller will help gun owners

Miller is clear -- if a gun has some military purpose then it could be owned by civilians (perhaps without NFA rules).

In the context of the DC handgun ban, how can someone show up for militia service with a handgun if they are banned from ownership?

[jimpeel]

34. Militia weapons

The same people who will state that handguns should be banned because they have no militia purpose are the same people who will tell you that semi-auto rifles should be banned because they are weapons of war.

They want it both ways and they want us to believe it.

[L1A1Rocker]

5. Read it.

Thanks for the link. I read their trip on the Parker case. There is some real intellectual gymnastics in the articles to come to their conclusions. Every conclusion they come to on Miller relating to the Parker finding is beyond logic.

[thirdpower]

6. That's actually been up for quite some time.

You should check out the blog. It's most entertaining.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

9. LET THE PEOPLE OF DC GOVERN OURSELVES

Isn't it nice that your Constitution allows you to have a gun but it doesn't allow those who actually live in the District of Columbia a right to govern ourselves or to VOTE for a voting member of the House of Representatives or the US Senate.

[benEzra]

11. OK, how about this...

you LET THE PEOPLE OF NORTH CAROLINA GOVERN THEMSELVES (and every other pro-gun state, i.e. nearly all of them) and keep your damn laws out of our gun safes, and maybe we'd care less about Federal 2nd-Amendment jurisprudence.

It's a bit hypocritical of you to support "home rule" when you're complaining about a law being overturned on Bill of Rights grounds, but throw "home rule" out the window when you want to shove H.R.1022 down our throats and ban protruding rifle handgrips nationwide.

[derby378]

12. That's one of the best responses I've ever seen

I can't think of a single thing to add to that. Well done! :applause:

[fightthegoodfightnow]

13. Hogwash

Your Constitution gives you and the citizens of North Carolina rights that the people of the District of Columbia do not have.

Don't talk to me like things are equal. They are not.

[pipoman]

14. By all means give those responsible DC voters a break..

[fightthegoodfightnow]

19. Thank You for the Support of DC Residents

I appreciate it.

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. No one here has supported continuing "Uncle Sam's Plantation"

I'm all for DC statehood. But the statehood argument has *nothing* to do with Parker.

You might consider that the District's argument that the Second Amendment didn't apply
there probably didn't help.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

20. Suspect

The authority for laws rests with the people.

Using the Constitution when it's convenient and ignoring it when it's not circumvents the will of the people, particularly when our laws are overthrown by a government that we do not participate in fully and equally.

[SteveM]

29. Partner, you don't know how this consitutional democracy works.

The people have chosen to pass laws, through representatives, in accordance with the Constitution; to do otherwise would make the Constitution nothing more than a temporal grocery shopping list.

Take a look at the first Ten: the language is couched in such a way as to protect the minority; otherwise, notions of tolerance and civil freedoms would be just a bumperstrip slogan.

You may not like this arrangement. How would you change it?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

30. Shopping List? Voting is on a Shopping List?

You write: The people have chosen to pass laws, through representatives, in accordance with the Constitution..........."

Just for clarification, do you mean the law abiding citizens of legal voting age?

No ..........you meant .........SOME of the people.

This country isn't a Republic or a democracy. If it were, the law abiding citizens of the District of Columbia would be able to have a say in what your constitution says and how it is amended whether it's regarding guns or anything else.

We don't.

[qdemn7]

16. What's this "Your Constitution"

Bullshit? Are you a US Citizen or resident of the US? Then the US Constitution applies to you as well.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

21. Consent

It's your Constitution.

It'll be mine when the citizens of the District of Columbia are afforded the rights and responsibliites of other citizens, including "No Taxation without Representation."

[qdemn7]

25. Right....

It's not YOUR Constitution. You get into legal trouble and see how soon it becomes YOUR Constitution.

[nuclearfishin]

26. And on that note

Since ftgfn isn't protected under the Constitution, does that mean he/she/it doesn't have the right to freedom of speech?

If ftgfn isn't protected under the first, would be within all of our legal rights to tell he/she/it to "pipe down" and that ftgfn has no right speak in this or any other forum?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

31. Until It Gives the Law Abiding Citizens of DC the Right of Vote

......it's a disappointment you should be fighting to make better rather than taking me to task for trying to do so.

Our gun laws are subject to the approval of both houses of Congress and the President.

Meanwhile, here on the planation, we are trying to deal with real issues affecting real people.

King George has as much meaning today as he did 225 years ago.

[SteveM]

40. But D.C. argued the Plantation Plan in Parker. On the pot or off it?

[Recursion]

41. SteveM's right: Fenty's argument is that the 14th Amendment doesn't apply to DC

Which, incidentally, essentially concedes the 2nd's incorporation under the 14th

[SteveM]

65. Good point. (nt)

[nuclearfishin]

18. I'd say.......

move.

You can still fight for the rights of DC and not have to endure the obvious pain of living there.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

22. Move?

I always find this argument revolting.

Too bad today's King George didn't just tell the Iraqi people that if they wanted freedom and self goverment, they should move someplace else.
Too bad yesterday's King George didn't just tell the colonist that if they wanted freedom and self goverment, they should move someplace else.

Nuclarfishin..........go ahead and sell your house and move, but I think a republican form of government includes representation from all jurisdictions.

[nuclearfishin]

24. Always the victim.

Didn't the colonists from yesterday's King George move to escape persecution because of their beliefs and to take advantage of the freedom in a new land that wasn't offered or cherished in their country?

I don't feel persecuted or less than a citizen where I live. Why would I move?

[benEzra]

28. They DID move someplace else...

here...

and the "shot heard round the world" was fired when British law enforcement showed up in rural Massachusetts to confiscate some farmers' weapons.

The first gun ban in Massachusetts (not all that different from D.C.'s ban, I suspect) was instituted by Gen. Gage, representive of King George III, who tried to confiscate the personally owned guns of Bostonians. It didn't go over so well with the people who later wrote the Constitution, now, did it?

The Bill of Rights was a post facto response to the abuses of power perpetrated by the British before and during the Revolution, to ensure that such things would not happen again; the Third Amendment responded to the quartering of British soldiers/law enforcement in private homes, the Fourth Amendment responded to the Writs of Assistance, and so on. The Second Amendment was a similar response to British gun bans.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

32. HELLO?

King George 225 years ago is the same King George today.

We are taxed without representation in our own goverment.

The fact that so many Americans seem to accept this makes me want to vomit as my tax dollars are spent on wars our people have no say in.

You want me to buy into your constitution, start fighting for democracy and a republican form of government right here in DC.

King George may have confiscated guns. If the people of DC want to ban guns in our own city, then we should be able to UNTIL such time as your Constitution includes voting representation for us.

[jimpeel]

37. The Iraqi people don't have to move to own a firearm

All Iraqis are allowed to keep one AK style (fully automatic, select fire, assault weapon) firearm in their homes for self protection by Iraqi law.

It seems that their Constitution is stronger than ours.

[SteveM]

66. I agree with you on the "moving" argument...

Wayne Pacelle, the rabid anti-hunting leader of the Humane Society, U.S.A., when told that the Inuit (and other Polar region peoples) depend utterly on hunting for their survival, suggested: "Why don't they move?"
(Bloodties, Ted Kerasote, Random House)

How imperial can you get? As a kid, I heard a few Foghorn Leghorn Southern reps suggest this remedy to D.C. residents. These yeehas made the same argument that the minority view did in Parker.

[slackmaster]

62. You have the option of moving out of DC

If you aren't happy there.

[qdemn7]

17. Well hell...

If we're going to start that "State by State" bullshit, then that's equally applicable to the "Right to Choose" isn't it? See how many Progressives (including Howard Dean) are in favor of State by State Laws when the shoe's on the other foot.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

23. It's a Big Leap to Go from that Post to Arguing there should be No State Laws

It's a Big Leap to Go from that Post to Arguing there should be No State Laws

PS - DC is not a state (although last time I checked North Carolina was).

[benEzra]

27. Parker didn't say "no state laws"; it said that an ABSOLUTE BAN

was an infringement. In D.C., of course, it is a crime to possess any functioning firearm whatsoever inside your own house, even disassembled handguns are de facto completely banned (bodyguards for the wealthy and politically connected excepted, of course), and any nonfunctional firearm with the ability to hold 12 rounds of ammunition is legally classified as a "machinegun" (presumably including the pistols carried by D.C.'s finest). D.C.'s law was the one struck down because its laws were the extreme case, not because of "home rule" issues or the lack thereof, and the fact that the Bradyites are defending the D.C. absolute ban speaks volumes about their desired endgame for the rest of us.

Parker didn't say there isn't room for reasonable restrictions, i.e. the NFA registry for automatic weapons, background checks for purchase, prohibition on possession by criminals, minimum age requirements, etc. What it said was essentially that restrictions should be weighed by the same "strict scrutiny" test as is used for the rest of the Bill of Rights.

And as I said, if you want "home rule" for D.C. on the gun issue, then you can't simultaneously argue against "home rule" for those of us in pro-gun-ownership states. North Carolina, Florida, and most other states have considered and rejected bans on modern-looking carbines and over-10-round magazines, so if you advocate shoving such restrictions down our throat at the Federal level, don't complain when the shoe is on the other foot.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

33. Give Us Representation and then You can claim Sovereignty

You write: 'And as I said, if you want "home rule" for D.C. on the gun issue, then you can't simultaneously argue against "home rule" for those of us in pro-gun-ownership states."

Newslash: DC is not a state. When it becomes one, you'll have a point. You want us to bow to your constitutional laws, then stop taxing us without representation. YOU are taxing us and not giving us representation.

It's like both houses of Congress and the President being given the power to write a law restricting or granting certain gun rights in just the county where you live. It's repugnant to the values this country claims to embrace.

[NYVet]

60. Ditto... NT

[Recursion]

39. I still don't see how you view this as a home rule question

This isn't like the rest of the times when Congress has tried to overturn the handgun ban (I was against those, incidentally); this is a DC resident suing for her Constitutional rights. Surely you agree we have the option to seek relief from the courts if the District violates our Constitutional rights, don't you?

[slackmaster]

61. You already have the power, FTGFN!

If you don't want a gun in your home, don't buy one.

[jimpeel]

35. There are three issues that the Brady Bunch have to overcome ...

ISSUE NUMBER ONE:

They state that the Second Amendment protects the states from the federal government disarming the state's militias.

Article I, Section 10, para 3 states:

"No State shall, without the consent of Congress, ... keep troops, or Ships of War in time of peace, ..."

ie: The States have to have the permission of Congress to do what is otherwise prohibited to them; but the Second Amendment prevents the Congress from disarming the States who need their permission to be so equipped in the first place. (start over from beginning of sentence and repeat to infinity)

ISSUE NUMBER TWO:

They state that "the people" as mentioned in the Second Amendment does not indicate an individual right, as it does in the rest of the bill of Rights; but instead confers that power onto the states.

In other words, they believe that the Tenth Amendment actually reads:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the States.

ISSUE NUMBER THREE:

They believe that the word "right" as used in the Second Amendment is used to reference a power of the states.

The word "right" appears only once in the main body of the Constitution and refers to human individuals: authors and inventors.

Wherever any government entity is referenced (States, Congress, Judiciary, Executive) the word "power" or "powers" is used.

Only human individuals have rights.

States have only powers granted at the consent of the governed.

If they can simply overcome these three roadblocks -- convince the people that what they claim is the truth in the face of everything written by the Founders in direct opposition -- they can then get the full and total ban on all firearms they seek.

[SteveM]

67. Or as Alan Dershowitz sez: Want to get rid of guns? Get rid of the Second Amendment.

[jimpeel]

36. Okay ... so let's repeal the Second Amendment

Even if they manage to repeal the Second Amendment, they face the myriad Constitutions of the states that use the unambiguous language of "person", "individual", "his", "their", etc. There are 32 states that have an individual right to arms in their Constitutions.

Most of the rest use terms that are a duplicate of the federal Second Amendment language.

[friendly_iconoclast]

38. The Brady Center's interpretation of the Second Amendment

resembles the Women's Christian Temperence Union interpretation of the turning-water-into-wine at the wedding at Cana.

[iverglas]

42. yes, the WCTU was usually in the vanguard of progressive social policy

Imagine what a fool someone would have to be, to believe that water was turned into wine. Glad to hear they didn't fall for that one.

Those castrating bitches ... kinda like those million mawms ...

[friendly_iconoclast]

43. Here's what your 'progressives' are promoting these days

this from a link at their main site:

http://www.wctu.org/affiliates.html

which links to:

http://www.twid.org/

Truth Without Interruption Day (TWID)
Finally, Christians have the opportunity to speak up against the homosexual agenda on Truth Without Interruption Day ® On April 25, 2008, homosexuals across this nation will participate in a day they are calling the National Day of Silence.

Yes, from 8 am until 5 pm participants will remain silent to show their support of the homosexual agenda within our schools.

The event sponsored by homosexualists has grown from a single campus in 1996 into an international effort involving hundreds of schools.

What an opportunity God has given us to share Truth Without Interruption during their (homosexualist) Day of Silence.

We ask you to help protect America's youth by speaking out, in love, for purity and for the natural family.

Still maintain they are in "the vanguard of progressive social policy"?

[iverglas]

44. still beating your dog?

Still maintain they are in "the vanguard of progressive social policy"?

Since I never maintained any such thing, why would you ask me whether I still maintain it? I mean, other than to create the false impression in someone's mind that I did maintain it. Eh?

I'm sure you read what I said:

yes, the WCTU was usually in the vanguard of progressive social policy

Now, how are you on verb tenses?


And of course, you do know that the U.S. didn't and doesn't have a monopoly on this movement any more than it does on most others, and that most other countries aren't as just plain weird as the U.S., and that I have no reason to be thinking of the weird and wonderful things that some outfit in the U.S. might be getting up to when I use the title it shares with organizations elsewhere:

http://theeyeopener.cfhosting.ca/storydetail.cfm?storyid=1651

The building across the street from Jorgenson Hall was built in 1921 by the WCTU, an influential, but unheralded, group in the fight for prohibition in Canada. It is now the home of Covenant House Toronto. More than 5,000 homeless young people seek comfort here every year. Counselling, health care, and educational and employment assistance give tenants the opportunity for "independent lives and a better future."

... The inhabitants of Covenant House have Letitia Youmans to thank for their comfortable surroundings.

Youmans, a stepmother of eight from Picton, Ont., organized the first Canadian local union of the WCTU in her hometown in 1974 {obviously 1874}. A year later, she started the Toronto local and 13 years later Youmans organized the Canadian National Union of the WCTU.

It was an organization that advocated for woman's rights. It fought to protect the rights of children and worked to reform society by promoting Christian moral values.

The WCTU helped found the Parent Teacher Association, promoted stiffer penalties for sexual crimes against women, fought for federal aid for education and demonstrated for world peace.

... "The WCTU effectively passed from the scene in the 1920s and their many accomplishments soon faded into the mist of the forgotten past, replacing this important historical record was the stereotypical view of the WCTU as a group of aging women rather irrelevantly railing against mainstream society and its mores," writes Cook.

The WCTU is still around. They donate to Covenant House Toronto, appreciative that their old headquarters provide a safe alternative to the streets.

For good measure:

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0004841

McClung, Nellie Letitia, née Mooney, suffragist, reformer, legislator, author (b at Chatsworth, Ont 20 Oct 1873; d at Victoria 1 Sept 1951). ... In Manitou, where her husband was a druggist, she became prominent in the WOMAN'S CHRISTIAN TEMPERANCE UNION, of which her mother-in-law was provincial president. ...

In 1911 the McClungs and their 4 children moved to Winnipeg, where their fifth child was born. The Winnipeg women's rights and reform movement welcomed Nellie as an effective speaker who won audiences with humorous arguments. She played a leading role in the 1914 Liberal campaign against Sir Rodmond ROBLIN's Conservative government, which had refused women suffrage, but moved to Edmonton before the Liberals won in Manitoba in 1915.

In Alberta she continued the fight for female suffrage and for PROHIBITION, dower rights for women, factory safety legislation and many other reforms. She gained wide prominence from addresses in Britain at the Methodist Ecumenical Conference and elsewhere (1921) and from speaking tours throughout Canada and the US, and was a Liberal MLA for Edmonton, 1921-26.

... Her active life continued: in the Canadian Authors Association, on the CBC's first board of governors, as a delegate to the League of Nations in 1938 and as a public lecturer.


McClung, Murphy and Jamieson
Nellie McClung (left), Emily Murphy (right) and Laura Jamieson (March 1916) were the leaders of the feminist cause in western Canada (courtesy City of Edmonton Archives).

Stupid women.

[qdemn7]

45. All the good the WCTU did

Or attempted to do was far outweighed by their absolute foolishness in promoting Prohibition. Prohibition was the second worst internal social policy disaster the US has ever engaged in, only outweighed by the War on Drugs. People want to consume alcohol, tobacco, cannabis and other street drugs. The problem arises when people who want to Save other peoples Souls, or Lives, or Save the World are simply unwilling to accept the fact that some people don't want their Souls / Lives Saved, nor the World Saved according to the "Saver" morality.

What the issues of Alcohol, Tobacco, Cannabis, et al, and Guns all share is not a question of danger they present, rather it is a moral conflict between two polar opposite ideologies. I don't care what all these Moralists believe or the basis of their morality. I just want them to keep their morality in their homes and leave myself and others who don't share their beliefs the hell alone.

[iverglas]

46. nah

The problem arises when people who want to Save other peoples Souls, or Lives, or Save the World are simply unwilling to accept the fact that some people don't want their Souls / Lives Saved, nor the World Saved according to the "Saver" morality.

The real problem arises when someone chooses to characterize a group, and a lot of individuals, that worked their asses off to win protection for women and children from the brutality and poverty they suffered, and to get the vote for women, and schools and other services for children, and peace on the international level, as people who wanted to save other people's souls.

But pardon me -- what exactly might be wrong with wanting to save other people's lives? I thought that was what all the Big Daddies hereabouts with their Big Guns were dedicated to doing ...

Oh, I see. You're talking about the poor castrated men whose lives you think these women were trying to save.

Yeah. It's all about men, alla time.

You musta bin reading this. It's an odd one.

http://www.ccel.us/missingfromaction.ch1.html

The Forgotten Male

... In most measurable ways, believe it or not, the stresses of modern life seem far more damaging to men than to women.

Look at substance abuse. Who is it who is trying to mask their pain with drugs and alcohol? According to government statistics, the rates of arrests for alcohol and drug use are considerably higher in the male population. Five times more men than women are charged with drug abuse. For every woman arrested for drunkenness, more than nine men will be incarcerated. When someone gets cited for driving under the influence, almost nine times out of ten, the person behind the wheel is a guy.

and the usual yada yada blah blah about how hard men have it. But despite all their troubles with the demon rum and the devil weed, men are still the victims when women take action.

http://www.ccel.us/missingfromaction.ch7.html

Wine, Women, and Psalm

... The accepted gender image of the Victorian male as a spiritually inferior agent, no longer capable of being responsible for the moral climate of home and society, made him powerless to resist the assault of a moral crusade aimed directly at him. What started out as a legitimate attempt to protect homes by curbing existing abuse ended up as an implicit crusade against masculinity. And when the smoke cleared, men were more emasculated than ever before.

There is no doubt about it — in nineteenth-century America, irresponsible male drinking was on the increase. With all the pressures, stress, and personal anxiety arising from the loss of patriarchy and the rise of industrialization, men began to spend more and more time in the taverns. To them, the tavern increasingly became a refuge from the humiliation of being under their wives' moral guidance at home.

Poor, poor, poor emasculated men. And yet, funny thing, it was women and children getting beaten and becoming homeless, and women who had no economic or social or political rights and so were unable to protect themselves and their children against the violence or poverty ...


What the issues of Alcohol, Tobacco, Cannabis, et al, and Guns all share is not a question of danger they present, rather it is a moral conflict between two polar opposite ideologies.

Nah, but I'll tell you what they do share. They form the foundations of the You Aren't The Boss Of Me school of sociopolitical "thought". That will be the junior kindergarten. Adults usually move on to a rather more advanced school of thought, which is one that involves recognizing that one is not the centre of the universe, as people with normal personalities do by about the age of three.

[benEzra]

48. So how do you feel about alcohol and drug prohibition?

"What the issues of Alcohol, Tobacco, Cannabis, et al, and Guns all share is not a question of danger they present, rather it is a moral conflict between two polar opposite ideologies."

Nah, but I'll tell you what they do share. They form the foundations of the You Aren't The Boss Of Me school of sociopolitical "thought". That will be the junior kindergarten. Adults usually move on to a rather more advanced school of thought, which is one that involves recognizing that one is not the centre of the universe, as people with normal personalities do by about the age of three.

So how do you feel about alcohol and drug prohibition? Do you think the WCTU made a mistake in supporting it, and do you believe the opposition to, disobedience of, and repeal of, alcohol prohibition was justified?

(I'm not going anywhere with this, just wondering where you fall on that spectrum.)

[friendly_iconoclast]

49. Still maintain that the WCTU was progressive?

You might want to look at these

From:

http://www.binghamton.edu/womhist/teacher/DBQwctu7.htm

And now comes the sweet voice of a Northern woman, Miss Frances Willard, of the W.C.T.U., distinguished among her sisters for benevolence and Christian charity. She speaks in the same bitter tone and hurls the same blasting accusation. She says in a letter now before me, 'I pity the Southerners. The problem in their hands is immeasurable. The colored race multiplies like the locusts of Egypt. The safety of women, of childhood, of the home, is menaced in a thousand localities at this moment, so that men do not dare go beyond the sight of their own roof tree.' Such, then, is the crushing indictment drawn up against the Southern Negroes, drawn up, too, by persons who are perhaps the fairest and most humane of the Negro's accusers. Yet even they paint him as a moral monster, ferociously invading the sacred rights of woman and endangering the home of the whites.


-- Excerpt from Frederick Douglass, "Why is the Negro Lynched?"
in the pamphlet, The Lesson of the Hour, 1894

or this, from:

http://www.binghamton.edu/womhist/teacher/DBQwctu8.htm

Of the fact that the position taken on the race question by the W.C.T.U. fails to satisfy the more sensitive and self-respecting coloured women (and men) there are abundant and, as we think, hopeful evidences. . . .

Miss Willard has carefully avoided saying anything which was calculated to arouse a feeling against her in the South. She says the national W.C.T.U. allows separate state organizations in the south (condones the drawing of a colour line), and attempts to justify this by saying that those of the two races in that section of the country desire it. One race, Southern whites, do without a doubt desire this, but we question the truthfulness of the part of her statement which has relation to the desires of our people of intelligence there. . . .

We hold that the error lies in this 'allowing' and condoning of injustice. How long will the Northern members of the W.C.T.U. fail to see that this insistence on Caste separation on the part of their white sisters at the South is not only an infliction of personal humiliation and injustice on every coloured woman against who it is applied, but an attempt to evade and repudiate the very principles and spirit of Christianity.


-- Excerpt from "The WCTU and the Colour Question," Anti-Caste, March 1895

So let me get this straight. As far as the WCTU goes, we should just overlook the
less savory bits of their history and look at what good they did do?

For that matter, has the Canadian WCTU distanced itself from the USAian WCTU as
far as their position on abortion and/or homosexuality?

[iverglas]

56. how 'bout that Thomas Jefferson, eh?

Swell guy, I hear. Burnt that constitution yet?

For that matter, has the Canadian WCTU distanced itself from the USAian WCTU as far as their position on abortion and/or homosexuality?

And it would do this because ...?

Because the USA is the centre of the universe, I suppose, and its gravitational pull must be resisted at every moment ...



http://www.osstf.on.ca/Default.aspx?DN=fb38b32f-92f0-416b-b16e-c86e581a87c3

In Canada that year <1971>, the Royal Commission on the Status of Women had just tabled its 488-page report containing 167 forward-looking recommendations on a wide-range of issues, including equal pay for work of equal value, maternity leave, poverty, education, daycare, birth control, family law, pensions and the Indian Act. ...

As one might expect, the commission received submissions from the usual suspects, including assorted political parties and groups such as the YWCA, the Voice of Women and various provincial councils of women. With all due respect to these important organizations, however, the commission could in no way be seen to represent just a small number of voices, let alone be characterized as a group of radicals on the fringes of society. One must remember the year was 1967. Not only was it still illegal to distribute public information on birth control, it was still considered proper to identify married women as Mrs. husband’s name. In fact, a great irony of the royal commission was that Florence Bird, chair of the commission and notable in her own right, was routinely referred to as Mrs. John Bird.

No, what ultimately gave the commission and its report such resonance and credibility was how far the range of voices extended, coming as they did from all parts of Canada and representing a wide spectrum of perspectives. They included organizations such as the Imperial Order of the Daughters of the Empire (IODE) <think "DAR">, the Women’s Christian Temperance Union (WCTU) and the Salvation Army, as well as labour organizations such as the Canadian Labour Congress and individual unions and teacher federations. There were women from the farms and the cities; from the north, east and west; from Quebec and from aboriginal communities. There were business and professional women, nurses, lawyers, teachers and homemakers. Submissions came from Planned Parenthood and children’s aid societies as well as seniors’ organizations and parent associations. Many different faith-based and religious groups also provided their input.

I doubt that the WCTU does much more in Canada these days than raise money for charities like Covenant House, which is about what the IODE does as well.

[friendly_iconoclast]

63. No one has disputed that the WCTU has done some good...

including myself. You yourself have said:

I have no reason to be thinking of the weird and wonderful things that some outfit in the U.S. might be getting up to when I use the title it shares with organizations elsewhere

The WCTU are not all of one mind on social issues. We got that.

Yet you paint us "gun nuts" (to use a phrase) with a broad brush. We are (supposedly) Republicans, or crypto-Republicans. We are (supposedly) male supremacists.

Some person or organization may be admirable in one or several instances, yet be wrong
in general. Or vice versa (cf: John Adams and the Alien and Sedition Acts).

You have fought for the rights of women and children. Does it follow that you
must agree with Valerie Solanas? Of course not.

Yet, somehow, even progressives who are staunch Democrats and dislike the Bushistas
are irrevocably tainted in your mind if they are in favor of gun ownership.

I wonder if some of your posts are not in violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, given the misandry and racism against USAians found therein.

Or perhaps they are acceptable because they are directed at men and Yanks?

[iverglas]

64. nah

Yet you paint us "gun nuts" (to use a phrase) with a broad brush. We are (supposedly) Republicans, or crypto-Republicans. We are (supposedly) male supremacists.

And the truth is: I do no such thing. Ah, what did we expect?

I respond to what people say. If people say icky crap about protectin' their wimminfolk, or persistently exploit violence against women to promote an agenda that an overwhelming majority of victimized women and advocates for victimized women reject outright, I call that shit what it is. Male supremacist is as male supremacist does. If ya don't do male supremacy, well then I won't be calling you a male supremacist.

I'd just point out, though, that dumping on the WCTU is a pretty tired male supremacist trick ... as that link I offered pretty much exemplified.


Yet, somehow, even progressives who are staunch Democrats and dislike the Bushistas are irrevocably tainted in your mind if they are in favor of gun ownership.

What's this "in favor of gun ownership" now? Isn't that one of those personal choice things? What, are you in favour of abortion and same-sex marriage now too? Don't you really think those should be left up to the individuals involved?

Apart from that silliness, of course, your statement is just one more big misrepresentation.

For one thing, I'm under no obligation to take anyone at his/her word that s/he is a staunch Democrat or dislikes Bushistas. Again, is as does. I'm perfectly at liberty to assess what someone says and does and decide whether s/he looks like a staunch Democrat (or some kind of genuine progressive) or not. And I'll tell ya: constant bad-mouthing of numerous Democrats, and in particular constant misrepresentations crossing over into lies about things that some Democrats have said or done, those will be some of the factors that are seriously considered in that assessment.

What's for sure irrevocably tainted in my mind is someone who claims to be progressive -- in the genuine, long-standing sense of that word, not the Hillary Clinton sense -- and opposes the kinds of restrictions on access to firearms and on the possession and use of firearms that all the staunch Democrats and Bushista-haters around here oppose.

Ron Paul dislikes the Bushistas. He's also a right-wing asshole. The enemy of mine enemy is not always my friend. Even when said enemy's enemy isn't just speaking with forked tongue.


I wonder if some of your posts are not in violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, given the misandry and racism against USAians found therein.

Yeah. And I wonder whether you have a clue. And I see you don't. Were you under the impression that I am a government?

Hmm. I wonder how racism could be found in my posts if I hadn't put it there. Wouldn't I have to be a racist to do that? Do you imagine you have just evaded a rule here? Quite apart from when US residents/citizens became a race ...


Or perhaps they are acceptable because they are directed at men and Yanks?

Or perhaps they're figments of your fertile, er, imagination.

[friendly_iconoclast]

50. So we are supposed to let the WCTU slide on racism, homophobia and Christian Talebanism

because *some* of their critics were/are sexist male supremacists? Or because they (the
WCTU) undoubtedly did many good things?

[qdemn7]

52. It appears from your constant rants about the plight of women

And children, that you don't give a damn about men. You never spare a chance to denigrate men, especially white men. OK, that's your warped viewpoint. But if women like yourself who are so pro-woman don't care about men, then why should men should give a damn about the plight of women that you perceive?

As far as this:

Nah, but I'll tell you what they do share. They form the foundations of the You Aren't The Boss Of Me school of sociopolitical "thought". That will be the junior kindergarten. Adults usually move on to a rather more advanced school of thought, which is one that involves recognizing that one is not the centre of the universe, as people with normal personalities do by about the age of three.

This is hypocritical coming from you since the You Aren't The Boss Of Me school of sociopolitical "thought" is precisely what Feminists have been saying to men for the last 35 years. So apparently once again there are two set of rules for the sexes, or rather the single old one of "Do as I say, not as I do."

And you did not address a single word to the issue of Prohibition and it's negative impact on American society. Since the WCTU was at the forefront of this movement which your apparently turning a blind eye to, you would have to accept that the WCTU was not a pure as drive snow. Of course to do so you would have to also address the bootlegging that occurred across the Canadian border.

And to repeat myself, I don't give a damn what positive effects the WCTU did for women and children since the negative aspects of Prohibition far outweighed any good deeds they did. Unless you think that gangsters running wild in the streets, bribery of officials and multiple killings are an acceptable trade-off. As the old saying goes, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

[friendly_iconoclast]

69. It also appears that she's been violating the Canadian Human Rights Act

with her constant anti-USAmerican posts. The specific part she's violated being:

13. (1) It is a discriminatory practice for a person or a group of persons acting in concert to communicate telephonically or to cause to be so communicated, repeatedly, in whole or in part by means of the facilities of a telecommunication undertaking within the legislative authority of Parliament, any matter that is likely to expose a person or persons to hatred or contempt by reason of the fact that that person or those persons are identifiable on the basis of a prohibited ground of discrimination.

from the Canadian Human Rights Commission site at:
http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/default-en.asp

"prohibited ground of discrimination" in this case being nationality or ethnic origin,
i.e., us Yanks.

as stated at the above website:

Hate messages
Internet and pre-recorded telephone hate messages are forbidden.

Now if one or more persons with legal standing under the Canadian Human Rights Act, i.e
a legal Canadian resident (presumably one of US birth, citizenship, or ancestry) were to
make a written complaint to the CHRC, they (the CHRC) are duty-bound to investigate.

source:
http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/discrimination/watch_on_hate-en.asp

I suppose if one were to trawl for iverglas' posts on DU or via Google and the Internet
Archive, and amend the offending ones to the complaint it would increase the odds of the
case against her reaching the CHRC Tribunal.

iverglas is Canadian, let the Canadian legal system deal with her.

[SteveM]

70. Few people realize that Canada was our biggest "trading partner" during Prohibition.

And Canada is now our second biggest "trading partner" with regards marijuana. Even here, most of the ganja is high grade (because shipments are small and highly contrived affairs along a mainly rural border). This second-place status is more significant given the dollar value over Mexican commercial. Oh, and I forgot to mention tobacco...

[benEzra]

47. Prohibition certainly finished them as a political movement. (n/t)

[friendly_iconoclast]

51. And we are just now getting to the analogy between the Brady Center and the WCTU

WCTU and other Christian Prohibitionists:

"wine" in a positive reference in the Bible (wedding at Cana, "take a little wine for thy stomach's sake") = unfermented grape juice

"wine" in a negative reference (John the Baptist won't drink wine, condemnations of
drunkenness) = wine as in what we commonly refer to as wine

Similarly,

Brady Center and the ACLU, et al:

"the people" in all the US Constitution save the Second Amendment = individuals

"the people" in the Second Amendment = the collective citizenry

[qdemn7]

53. Good...

Too bad we can't "finish" the modern Neo-Prohibitionists. http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/Controversies/1072876180.html

Of course as the evil "Red-Leg" Officer in the Outlaw Josey Wales said "Doin' good ain't got no end."

[pipoman]

59. I first became interested in WCTU

a number of years ago while studying Carry Nation, a local historical figure and certainly one of the most colorful figures ever associated with WCTU. It is hard to deny the impact WCTU had in the late 19th and early 20th centuries in the US. It would appear it had an impact after it's spread to other countries as well. While the prohibition movement which began in the mid 19th century proved to be a complete failure it was, IMO, a very progressive movement involving several other christian groups as well such as Demorest. This was long before the progressive movement began distancing itself from christian morality. I don't believe the issue of women's suffrage would have gained the traction it did without the WCTU. Also the recognition of crimes against women and children which were previously considered property rights, can't be disputed. So while WCTU has became insignificant in the US since prohibition their influence absolutely shaped 20th century progress toward a more civilized society IMO.

[qdemn7]

54. And once again

I don't a damn what you do in Canada. The issue isn't the Canadian WCTU and their actions, it's the American WCTU and their actions.

[SteveM]

68. ...and prohibition. (nt)

[reforger2002]

55. ProGun Group buys Guns with Gun Grabber money!

Proof gun grabbers ain't the sharpest tools in the shed!

http://www.illinoislovestogoshooting.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2528

Chicago Gun "Buy"

On Saturday, July 21, Chicago held its largest and most generous city-sanctioned gun buy of junk and orphaned firearms. The organizers paid $100 for each firearm, regardless of age, functionality or type. Turn in locations were situated at 23 churches throughout the city.

GUNS SAVE LIFE PARTICIPATED!

Guns Save Life participated in this worthy event, attracted by the offer of $100 pre-paid credit cards for any firearms!

…into a bunch of pre-paid $100 MasterCards.

I left Champaign-Urbana at 0530 with 27 guns in my trunk and one on my hip(fanny pack per Illinois Law). Given that Chicago Police reportedly now receive one vacation day and a $300 bonus on their paychecks for each gun they confiscate, I was very cautious. Visions of a car accident and subsequent police contact and discovery of the guns in my trunk filled the back of my mind. It would surely earn me the label of "gun runner" and incarceration in the disease-ridden bowels of Chicago’s city jail.

I'm sure the first officer to find said guns would go:

"Hoo YAH! Cha-CHING, BABY! I just got a month and a half off and a free trip to Aruba!"

I had a map with turn in locations listed and had planned to be there at 0800, so as not to get there after they ran out of cards (as almost happened to us in Joliet a few years ago when we got there at 0930 or so). I went to the best location proximate to I-90/94 and found myself in the heart of the bad-news ghetto in Chicago. Fortunately, the thugs were sound asleep at this wee hour. I found the door locked at the church and nobody around. Called 311 and found that the event started at 1000.

I killed some time by reconnoitering the second location I planned to transact business with and found a store for a restroom. Returned to location #1 and guardedly read a couple of chapters of “Godless” by Ann Coulter. Towards 1000, there were a lot of folks around looking like they were going to be turning stuff in, so I grabbed two bags (of five) out of the trunk and went to the door at 1000 sharp.

I stood in line there listening to a bunch of hopeless sheep bleat for half an hour. It repulsed me. "I've been blessed," one man said. "When things happen around me, like shooting or people screaming, I don't even look up."

"I figure if something's gonna happen to me, it's gonna happen," he concluded.

Won’t look up if he hears a woman screaming? How pathetic is that?

They finally opened a half-hour late. They let us in, two at a time. I was first with a real gun... or ten, in this case. Older, but nice, cop played the gun expert, but it was clear he was no expert at handling guns. I had to help him show clear on many of the revolvers as he was painfully slow in his inept effort at opening some of these old wheelguns. After professing an ignorance about guns, I had to pretend to fumble around with the mechanisms. I threw in a few muzzle sweeps for good measure to make it look good. I did keep my finger off the trigger though, which any "pro" would have noticed right away.

He took all ten, including the starter pistol, as real guns. Not my problem that he gave us $100 for that starter pistol. He was just glad and happy I could show him empty cylinders, as he was initially taking about two or more minutes per gun to check them (until I started fumbling and sweeping) and there were lots of folks waiting outside.

They gave me my ten credit cards and thanked me profusely, falling all over themselves to tell me what a great thing I was doing and I reciprocated, encouraging them to do it again!. I stuffed the envelopes into my back pocket after folding them.

I noticed that she was pulling the envelopes out of a box which contained an estimated 200 envelopes. ($20,000 x 23 locations = About a half-million in support of this program from someone. Looking back, it seems like a pretty fair estimate!) Separate box for the $10 cards for pellet guns and replicas. Similar number of envelopes there.

I left the building in condition orange, watching for any thugs waiting to ambush anyone coming out. The suspicious character who was eyeballing me earlier with my two bags of guns wasn’t there any longer. Got into the car across the street and was giddy with excitement. I had just sold $10 worth of scrap plus maybe a $50 5-shot .22 "affordable" wheel gun for $1000! It was too good to be true, but it really was true!

On to location #2. I was a little worried, since I was a half-hour behind schedule, thanks to the late open at the first church. I had reconnoitered the location #2 earlier, so it was effortless to find after a few minutes and a single turn. Found a parking spot fairly close to the door.

That was a good thing, because I had nine long guns in two bags, plus another small bag of handguns to go. About forty awkward pounds of rusty (s)crap. I mulled over whether or not to split this into two take-ins (at location #2 and then #3), but decided that based upon my warm reception at location #1, I'd just take them all in.

In I went, greeted with "whoa! I see you've got some guns!" by the lady at the door. Waited in line, watching "the room". Hot shot young guy was clearing the guns on the table by the door. Very "friendly", but invasive at the same time. Classic "good cop". I’m sure he’d be a good buddy – if you were a fellow cop.

"Hey, howya doin'" he greets me. "All these unloaded?"

"I dunno. I think so. I'm not real big on guns." My toes were crossed.

He has trouble getting the guns out of the duct-taped bag. I instinctively reached for my blade, which was not there because it’s four and a half-inch blade would have landed me in the slammer in disarmed-victim Chicago.

“One of you guys got a knife to help him open this up?” I asked.

They all looked at one another like I just asked them for a gold brick or something. Not one of about five cops had a blade. How sad.

Finally, some little old lady brings a pair of $1.00 scissors and Hotshot cuts the tape, with some difficulty.

He starts checking them, and notices the rust on his hands from a couple of really choice specimens. You could get tetanus from these if you had any open sores.

"Didja hit a bunch of pawn shops or something?" He asked. "Hey, Benny, come look at these."

Benny comes over and starts sweating me. He's playing "bad cop" in a restrained way. Same questions, only a lot more assertive. "Where'd you get all these? You buy them to bring here?"

They broke me in about as long as it takes in CSI or one of those other cheesy TV cop shows.

"Uh. No, they aren't really mine. They belonged to my grandfather and his father. I sold the decent ones and had this stuff in the attic for a long time until I saw you guys were giving $100 cards for any old guns."

Midway through his clearing of the guns, Hotshot motions for me to come closer while he was holding one of the guns.

"Hey, did you know this one was one of our sniper rifles from World War II," he said. "See this here," he noted, pointing at the elevation mechanism, "this is the windage adjustment."

I’m thinking: SUPPRESS LAUGH!

"Wow. If I'd have known that, I might of kept that one," I replied. It was a broken down, 60s-era, hardware-store, tubular-fed .22 long rifle pump gun with the tube hanging out of the receiver. I told this to the guy who donated this gun to the club, and he laughed. "It must have been a one-of-a-kind custom gun!" he said with a hearty laugh.

After showing clear on all thirteen, Benny showed me to the "money table." Similar number of envelopes, only the box was only 2/3 full here. Another woman was busy making notes for each of 13 envelopes and putting labels on the guns. I sashayed over to the other end of the table and had a peek at the "pistol" box. Total junk. Pot metal wheel guns. Maybe a couple of S&Ws, but more likely, just patent-infringement guns from no-name makers. No modern semi-autos.

"Hey you, get over here." Oops, they caught me eyeballing their treasure.

I sheepishly returned.

They gave me the envelopes and watched suspiciously as I verified the count. Gave them a big thumbs up and a smile and turned to leave. It was like they had formed a reception line behind me. Four or five of the women wanted to shake my hand and thank me profusely. Even took my photo with a big shot there. I remembered to stick my middle finger out a lot further than the rest of my fingers while trying to hold a fanned out stack of envelopes for the photo.

Ugh! Got out of there and I ran out of hand sanitizer and baby wipes in the car wiping the funk off my hands.


EPILOGUE

So, Guns Save Life ended up netting $1700 worth of MasterCards from the event. The club is in the process of selling some of the cards to members for cash and five of the cards are going to be spent at Darrell’s Custom Guns in Cayuga, IN for two CZ bolt-action .22s to be given away to two lucky kids participating in the NRA Youth Shooting Camp coming up over the first weekend in August. The rest of the money (and then some) will be spent purchasing ammo for the kids to use during the camp. The camp, located in Bloomington at Darnall’s, is the longest running NRA Youth Shooting Camp in the nation.

You accounting wizards should know that I didn’t turn in the personal defense pieces that I keep in my trunk, especially when going to dangerous places like Cook County.

And they sure weren’t getting the pistol in my fanny pack!

[iverglas]

57. hmm ... sharp tools

Now, I wonder about people who, in their, er, first post, violate the copyright rules of the forum and do nothing but regurgitate a bunch of bumph that has already been discussed in a thread devoted specifically to an issue that has nothing to do with this thread at all ...

[reforger2002]

58. so I enjoy twisting tails - shoot me!

Oh wait ewe can't!