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Dean Concedes He Would Have Allowed Bush To Wage War Without Congress

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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:38 PM
Original message
Dean Concedes He Would Have Allowed Bush To Wage War Without Congress
Dean later conceded that he backed an alternative to last fall's resolution that would have allowed President Bush to wage war against Iraq without congressional approval. But he said the measure, which never passed, might have averted war.

Bush would have been required to send Congress a letter, not seek a vote of approval, before waging war, Kerry said. He argued there was no significant difference between the Lugar-Biden resolution and the one passed by Congress.

Dean acknowledged that the alternative resolution was not binding against the president, but argued that Bush would have somehow been more likely to use restraint.

"Biden-Lugar required the president to come back to Congress - not for a vote," but only to certify that a number of actions were taken, including more diplomacy, Dean said. "Had the president done that, we would not have gone to war, because then he would have been forced to certify with his word ... all the claims he made that were not true."

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1211campaign11.html

Kerry said that at the time of the congressional debate, Dean was on record saying then that Saddam Hussein needed to be disarmed and had supported a resolution sponsored by Sens. Joseph R. Biden Jr. and Richard G. Lugar that would have required Bush to report back to Congress if he failed to win international support for the war.

Kerry said Dean was "trying to have it both ways" on his position. "If you don't have to vote, you can run around and say a lot of things. But that's not leadership."

A Senate Democratic aide involved in the discussions over the competing resolutions said Wednesday that the White House had opposed the initial Biden-Lugar amendment, saying it would tie Bush's hands. Later the White House began negotiating with the sponsors, but those negotiations were undercut when Gephardt cut a deal with the White House to support their preferred resolution.

The aide said Biden-Lugar would have added an additional requirement for Bush to satisfy before going to war unilaterally, but added that a president determined to launch military action probably would not have been deterred by the alternate resolution.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54585-2003Dec10.html

One of those alternatives -- offered by the top men on the Senate Foreign Relations, Democrat Joe Biden of Delaware and Republican Dick Lugar of Indiana -- authorized the use of force after a new UN resolution requiring Iraqi disarmament and compliance with past resolution; if UN diplomacy was exhausted it authorized unilateral action if the president declared Iraq a threat.

This alternative was not only supported by Howard Dean, it was supported by Senator John Kerry, whom Dean also attacks for being Bush's war buddy.

Lacking votes, the Biden-Lugar proposal was never formally introduced. Instead, the negotiations with Democrats produced the resolution that passed. It authorized force for several other offenses beyond prohibited weapons (including ballistic missiles, which Iraq had), but also encouraged UN involvement. The differences between the two were not huge, and each authorized war, including unilateral war.

After the vote, Dean reiterated his Biden-Lugar position but did not denounce the enacted resolution until later. He also said Bush should be taken at his word that Iraq constituted a threat.

As a result of Congress's resolution, the Bush administration went to New York and secured unanimous Security Council passage of a new resolution demanding new inspections and threatening serious consequences for disobedience.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/
articles/2003/11/23/deans_negative_tilt_in_iowa/

<>

Russert: ...and I'll show it to you. You said in January, Governor, "I would be surprised if didn't have chemicals and biological weapons."

Dean: Oh, well, I tend to believe the president. I think most Americans tends to believe the president.

Russert: What did you think of Senator John Kerry's comments that President Bush misled the country?

Dean: Well, I thought it was Senator Bob Graham that said that and I agree with that.

Russert: No, John Kerry said the president misled us and...

Dean: Well, I wasn't aware that Senator Kerry said it. I knew Senator Graham had said it in Iowa. But I believe that. I think we were misled.

http://www.deanrocks.com/page.cfm?p=1&c=9
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. That Deanie doesn't look too happy - clenched fist and all...
Edited on Fri Dec-12-03 11:44 PM by SahaleArm
He almost looks green:)
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
24. It always amazes me, how brave wimpy folks can
get in large crowds. Or maybe there's more to that Kool-aid than even I suspect.
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
38. looks like some of the Dean guys at the Fla convention
First they harassed the Gephardt people, then the Kerry people, then the Clark people, then the Edwards people. I don't know why the Dean campaign condones (maybe encourages) this behavior. The Kerry Campaign was especially polite, friendly and helpful when we were trying to do our advance work.

We had these burly union guys threatening the seniors. Most of the people in the other campaigns (Edwards, Clark, Gephardt, Kerry) were seniors and the Dean campaign was almost ALL young males who were very aggressive. They were trying to pick fights, etc. I won't say all of the Dean supporters were like that - but a good number of them were.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #38
49. I Talked To Several Campaigns In New Hampshire
And they spoke in very similar terms about how the other campaigns would be cool with each other, but the Deanies were just relentless. But that was staffers, and doesn't necessarily reflect what Dean supporters are like in person (actually, the ones I've met in person were very sweet).
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tlb Donating Member (611 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #49
64. The Dean moonies I've dealt with are downright creepy.
Seriously.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. OMG - NO - not the anti-war Dean?
Edited on Fri Dec-12-03 11:44 PM by molly
does Al Gore know?

on edit....

Dean: Oh, well, I tend to believe the president. I think most Americans tends to believe the president.
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Raya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #2
40. Move to the Center earlier than expected
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. Because of the new rules....
I am afraid to say what I really think of this post
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I Appreciate Your Reticence
But it never hurts to call Kerry a war criminal again...
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. It's just rehashing something over and over and
over again that's going nowhere. Dean was against this travesty in Iraq and kerry wasn't..
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. Not According To The AP, Washington Post, and Boston Globe
Apparently they think there is something novel about Dean's raison d'etre being a sham.
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. Well duh you cant be against the war
and for occupation that was my first clue
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sharkbait2 Donating Member (161 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Wow Seventhson!
Are you the same Seventhson from Smirking Chimp and Capital Grilling?

Nice to see you.
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. Ummmm, yeah
Nice to see you too

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Don Claybrook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. Reply
Edited on Fri Dec-12-03 11:54 PM by Don Claybrook
When I see the same people making the same Dean attacks day in and day out, my eyes begin to glaze over, just like they did when I was required to read Beowulf. It's all been said, you've made your points. I thought I'd just post some of Beowulf here so you could see how your attacks come across. It's the textual equivalent of Charlie Brown's parents on the telephone.

And I hope you'll agree that Beowulf in the original Old English beats "poop".

Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,

5
monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra

10
ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning!
Ðæm eafera wæs æfter cenned,
geong in geardum, þone god sende
folce to frofre; fyrenðearfe ongeat

15
þe hie ær drugon aldorlease
lange hwile. Him þæs liffrea,
wuldres wealdend, woroldare forgeaf;
Beowulf wæs breme (blæd wide sprang),
Scyldes eafera Scedelandum in.

20
Swa sceal geong guma gode gewyrcean,
fromum feohgiftum on fæder bearme,
þæt hine on ylde eft gewunigen
wilgesiþas, þonne wig cume,
leode gelæsten; lofdædum sceal

25
in mægþa gehwære man geþeon.
Him ða Scyld gewat to gescæphwile
felahror feran on frean wære.
Hi hyne þa ætbæron to brimes faroðe,
swæse gesiþas, swa he selfa bæd,

30
þenden wordum weold wine Scyldinga;
leof landfruma lange ahte.
þær æt hyðe stod hringedstefna,
isig ond utfus, æþelinges fær.
Aledon þa leofne þeoden,

35
beaga bryttan, on bearm scipes,
mærne be mæste. þær wæs madma fela
of feorwegum, frætwa, gelæded;
ne hyrde ic cymlicor ceol gegyrwan
hildewæpnum ond heaðowædum,

40
billum ond byrnum; him on bearme læg
madma mænigo, þa him mid scoldon
on flodes æht feor gewitan.
Nalæs hi hine læssan lacum teodan,
þeodgestreonum, þon þa dydon

45
þe hine æt frumsceafte forð onsendon
ænne ofer yðe umborwesende.
þa gyt hie him asetton segen geldenne
heah ofer heafod, leton holm beran,
geafon on garsecg; him wæs geomor sefa,

50
murnende mod. Men ne cunnon
secgan to soðe, selerædende,
hæleð under heofenum, hwa þæm hlæste onfeng.

Ða wæs on burgum Beowulf Scyldinga,
leof leodcyning, longe þrage

55
folcum gefræge (fæder ellor hwearf,
aldor of earde), oþþæt him eft onwoc
heah Healfdene; heold þenden lifde,
gamol ond guðreouw, glæde Scyldingas.
ðæm feower bearn forð gerimed

60
in worold wocun, weoroda ræswan,
Heorogar ond Hroðgar ond Halga til;
hyrde ic þæt wæs Onelan cwen,
Heaðoscilfingas healsgebedda.
þa wæs Hroðgare heresped gyfen,

65
wiges weorðmynd, þæt him his winemagas
georne hyrdon, oðð þæt seo geogoð geweox,
magodriht micel. Him on mod bearn
þæt healreced hatan wolde,
medoærn micel, men gewyrcean

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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Now my eyes are really..
"Glazed Over"! Thanks! :)
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Don Claybrook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I edited some of it out
In order to still make a point, but not take up several screens' worth.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #14
36. You Took Out The Best Parts!
The story was just starting to pick up! How does it end?
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Don Claybrook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. OK, you win, here's how it ends (warning: spoiler)
January, 2005, gray, bitter, snowy day in Washington, D.C.

Howard Dean takes the oath of office and, contrary to popular belief, he doesn't put Bush on a Greyhound bound for Crawford. He's classy enough to let him use Air Force One, which has also been loaded with every damned keyboard in the White House, W keys still intact.

The scene slowly fades out as you see Dean getting to work to begin to fix the horrible abortion that Bush has left for him.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #39
46. Fair Play To Ya!
Make it happen! You seem like a decent, reasonable chap, and your campaign would do well to have more like ya.
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Don Claybrook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #46
73. Thank you
It bears repeating that we're all really in this thing together. In the end, I'd be more than happy to pull the lever for Clark or for Kerry.
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DancingBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #39
84. Oh, then it must be a fiction story

too easy - couldn't resist.... :)
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. A Great Passage About Grendel - I love lines 150-155!!!
Besides knowing the binary language of moisture vaporators, I am also fluent in Middle English.

150
ylda bearnum, undyrne cuð,
gyddum geomore, þætte Grendel wan
hwile wið Hroþgar, heteniðas wæg,
fyrene ond fæhðe fela missera,
singale sæce, sibbe ne wolde

Powerful stuff!
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Don Claybrook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Well, let's strike a deal then
I could certainly use some of your knowledge. Maybe we can talk Beowulf and you could teach me a thing or two.

Or maybe you could explain to me why my Vicks vaporizer says I may need to add salt if steam doesn't appear within 10 minutes.

And if I can keep you busy enough with these two conversations, maybe you'll lay off Dean for awhile and let it lie.

So, let's say I want to make modifications to this vaporizer such that the volumetric flow rate is doubled, but the humidity level in the room isn't raised by more than 10% or so. I guess my first question is, do you need this request put into some sort of assembly language to be able to work with it in binary, or do you go to the higher vaporizer layers? Next, will you need to know the specific gravity of the water coming out of the tap in my house........
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. I Also Speak Ewok
They consider me something of a Golden God, attributing me powers I don't actually have, kind of like Deanies.;)
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CalProf Donating Member (219 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #11
53. Er, strictly speaking, Beowulf is in Old English
But still, it's great stuff. Mere mortals might want to check out Seamus Heaney's outstanding translation. It came out a couple of years or so ago.

On the other hand, speaking the language of moisture vaporators... is that Greek?

Though Republicans are also full of hot wet air, so maybe...

oh never mind.

Go Kerry!
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Well, spend some more of DU's bandwidth and
translate - try to keep your eyes clear and on target.
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Don Claybrook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Do you have any idea what you're talking about r.e. bandwidth?
I'm a network engineer by trade. Do you know just how small the bandwidth requirement (and corresponding server space requirement) is for that little passage of Beowulf?

More to the point, and I'll reiterate the point I was trying to make in the first place, if that little passage can be considered a waste of bandwidth, then certainly the hate-inspired Dean attack pieces appearing in GD every 3 minutes like clockwork should be considered a much greater waste of bandwidth.

Let's stay clear and on-target.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. So - do your thang!
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. Wherefore Hate?
I don't hate Dean. I just don't like him. I don't see things in the pure binary logic of zealots. You know, kind of like "If you don't agree with Dean's candidacy, why don't you vote for Bush?"

Ever heard the comrades throwing that one around?

PS - Just kidding about the whole "comrades" thing, but there are certainly plenty of, uh, emphatic Dean supporters out there.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #19
58. how about saving some of my dial-up download time?
pffffft
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
9. You're lucky that none of the Dean supporters are fired up tonight
:D
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. Quiver-quiver-quiver!
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
12. Good, he admits it
Now we'll see if he stops saying he was against the war from the beginning.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #12
27. And, he'll unseal his records - showing us what an
upfront - honest - patriotic - for-the-people - DEM - he is.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
59. i knew i was smart to wait a couple days for him to 'clariify'
what he meant to say about what he said when he was talking about what he said before.........again.

errr......may i ask, is this the final version?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. A couple days!!!
rotfl, a couple days. Gads.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
21. don't people on this board have better things to do?
I just got home from work, I'm tired, I'm checking out DU, and I'm seeing post after post bashing candidates.

I really don't get it. How do you possibly have so much time on your hands, and who are you trying to sway?

There are, what 30,000 people max on DU? Are you trying to change people's minds so your guy will win?

How about a reality check?

I honestly don't understand how/why people can spend so much time and waste so much energy slinging mud when nobody's watching but us.
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frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
26. Wow.
I've seen the light now. Dean required the president speak before congess before he could declare a unilateral war. The other guys just wrote a blank check, like they've done on every issue since 2001. BAD Dean, he eats babies, you know?
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. Frustrated Much?
Dean didn't require jack, because he's just an unemployed guy from Vermont.

Is that part about eating babies true? Do you have a link?

PS - You forgot about the blank checks on ANWR, the federal nominations, the energy bill that just passed, the health care filibuster blank check. I realize that simple distortions sound better, but you really should do your homework before trying them out.
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frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #32
44. Frustrated a LOT
that's why the handle.

To clarify, the proposal Dean supported required that the president appear before Congress before declaring war. Would that have made a difference? It's impossible to say in hindsight, but it would, at the very least, have allowed time to assess intelligence. It also wouldn't be perceived as laying down like a kicked dog.

This Congress has written blank checks to Bush, and I'm sick of it. Iraq was one. ANWR, the energy bill, the Medicare bust, as you point out, are other areas where Congress has played dead.

There are other issues. Personally, I'm pissed about the slam dunk on stem cell research, because it hits me where I work.

I object to people trying to portray Dean in the same light as other dems on this issue, though. He didn't roll over, he supported a bill that required the president appear before Congress to make a case. While everyone else was bowing to Bush, saying it would be political suicide to do otherwise, Dean was busy pointing to a balance of power in our government and pointing to the RIGHT way to do things.

Don't tell me I haven't done my homework and just dismiss me, I read up on this shit from the moment I get home til I go to sleep. I express my thoughts in simple terms and I want a new president. Don't dare assume I'm not paying attention.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. You Should Have Studied Longer
ANWR was a successful filibuster (led by Kerry), as was the blocking of several key appointees to the Federal bench. Democrats lost the healthcare filibuster when a few jerks jumped ship, but it was still a ballsy move. And the Bush energy bill went NOWEHERE.

Kerry is a big supporter of stem cell research.

Kerry didn't bow to Bush. When others were fighting to get Iraq "off the table," he was fighting to keep it on the table past elections and continue to negotiate. Kerry also strongly supported Biden-Lugar. But he ultimately voted for the same reasons he believed in 1997, which Bill Clinton said so well:

"The credible threat to use force, and when necessary, the actual use of force, is the surest way to contain Saddam's weapons of mass destruction program, curtail his aggression and prevent another Gulf War."

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/1998/12/17/loc_clintons_statement.html

As for Dean pointing to the right way to do things, he didn't come out with a policy plan until February. Meanwhile, Kerry's October floor speech presented an impeccable course of action. If Kerry were President, there is no doubt whatsoever that he would have pursued the right course of action. And unless you think giving Iraq 30-60 days before unilateral war is a good plan, I wouldn't be too impressed by Deanie-come-lately.
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frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:34 AM
Original message
You must really peeve Deanies..
Ok, the problem with the ANWR is that it's still on the table. It shouldn't be.

The HealthCare thing...well, republicans won, no?

The energy bill? Well, I'm looking for indictments in the Enron case, I'd love to see a case against Halliburton.

With regard to stem cell research: Kerry said: "President Bush was faced with a difficult decision on stem cell research, but leadership is making choices, and governing means laying out priorities. Regrettably, tonight's announcement aims to create a political middle-ground where there is no scientific one." I do not see that as a profound defense of stem cell research.

I don't want to blast Kerry, I like the man. He's a good person, akin to Ted Kennedy. Thirty-sixty days allows time to invesigate, by the way, yeah, we should have done that.

I guess I should sign this,

a Deanie-come-lately
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #44
61. psssst...ANWR was blocked iirc?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
69. deleted
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 03:58 AM by WilliamPitt
Wrong spot.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
28. Recipe #1254 for rehashed bullshit
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Myra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
29. The fact is, Kucinich is the only one who can prove he was against IWR.
Because he's the one on record voting against it in congress.

So, if the vote bothers people (and I'm one), I think it can be
used as filtering criteria (which I did).
Then it's pretty much unprovable among the remaining candidates.


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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Yuppers. DK said no to it in Congress, Dean outside of it.
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catherineD Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #29
83. True. Clark was on CNN against it, but reporters twisted his words later.
I've seen transcripts that show that Clark argued often that it would be a bad idea to go to war with Iraq as things stood, without further UN involvement, more evidence of the need for it, and an exit strategy. But I think he saw the resolution as a means to give the president more leverage with the UN, and presumably he was fooled, as we all were, into believing that weapons of mass destruction might be stockpiled there. I don't think he thought that Bush would just run with the resolution straight into the war.
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
30. Excellent post Dr. Funk!
:loveya:
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. what a circle-jerk. n/t
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. The Feeling's Mutual
;-)

(It's good to see my education is being used well on painfully bad puns on the internet)
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #35
42. yes, because of your post I'll never vote for Dean now! No, never!
and that will sway the fate of America!
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #33
51. nice response
:eyes:
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. Share The Love!
:grouphug:

(I have the feeling there is a Deanie hanging over a bucket as he sees this...)
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #34
52. LoL
:grouphug:
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Lobo_13 Donating Member (569 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #30
37. Its a little thing called nuance
What the limited folks around here don't get is that the opposition to the war was conditional and he never claimed otherwise.

He would support the war if Saddam had WMD AND was an imminent threat.

Congress okayed the use of force without getting a high level of proof on either point.

Therefore, since Bush could not produce the evidence that would have gained his support, he withheld it.

These are not hard concepts to understand.

Everyone here knew that the proof about WMD in Iraq was pure bullshit from day one. And yet our elected leaders couldn't suss that out. They sacrificed hundreds of young soldiers in the name of political expediency. That is the ugly truth. Kerry and Gep laid down for Bush. For that, I'll never forgive them.

The next time someone says to me that Kerry has more foreign policy experience, I'll just say, "Then why did he get outsmarted by Bush?"
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. Uh...
Edwards and holy joe did too.

P.S. Great last sentence!
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #37
43. If he expects the grace of nuance, why does he never grant it in return?
That's the hypocrisy issue that rings in my head. He says that he's the only guy who ever talks about race in front of all-white audiences, and when it's pointed out that other candidates have it in their stump speeches, he says he can't be held accountable for knowing everything they've said. Then when he's called out for the Confederate flag issue, he says that it's dishonest to make an issue out of it now when he said it once many months ago, as if they all were responsible for being aware of his every word.

I know he's been a breath of fresh air to many who opposed the war and wanted an "outsider", but that doesn't exempt him from living by the laws of the other mortals.

To his credit, he's said that it's a flaw of his to speak too quickly sometimes and not be willing to back down when called out about it, but this does not give him absolution just because he acknowledges a failing.

The very idea that this guy demands a respect for subtlety and finesse is at once galling and laughable.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. welcome to DU and to the Dean campaign!
:hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #45
62. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #37
50. Dean is a centrist democratic politician
before the war he was just as wishy washy as all the others, he just wasnt in a position that required him to make a vote that could have ended his political career. So he basically was saying all the same things as everyone else, hedging his bets knowing that if Bush failed he could attack him, but that if he succeeded in finding WMD etc Dean would be able to deny he was against the war. Just like Kerry, Gep, Edwards, Lieberman, and every other liberal politician in thier situations. Progressive congressman could vote more freely because their constituancies would support them, and because they arent going to be running for president, except Kucinich, but there is a reason he is considered unelectable.

If you morally need to support someone who was anti war, vote Kucinich. If you are looking at the people in the race right now you are dealing with a bunch of politicians who make political decisions. I frankly thank them all for not risking the entire party on the gamble that things would go this badly or worse. I think even the most anti war amongst us thought they might find something they could pass off for WMD.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #50
54. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Instead of Being Rude
Why don't you back it up with some quotes from early October, 2002?
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #56
67. Like this?
Kerry said he expects Democrats will overwhelmingly approve the pending Senate resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq. "I think there will be a significantly more unified front than in the last Gulf War," he said.

But Dean said there are significant differences among Democrats on the issue, and suggested a political motive for presidential moves toward war.

"What’s the imminent danger?" he asked. "The president has never said, and all the intelligence reports say there isn’t any. It’s hard to escape the conclusion that some of this has to do with the midterm elections."
October 6, 2002

Do I have to post my full list of quotes again?
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. Really, how so
I just explained my reasoning, and you reply with a total flame post. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion forum.

Dean has a centrist democratic platform and is a politician like everyone else. Im sorry that some people cant accept that politics involves politicians and want to pretend that superman came from the fortress of solitude to rescue the system. Dean wouldnt have gotten where he was without being a politician. Its good that hes a politician, without politicians we would have absolutely no voice. But when people crucify the other candidates for acting as politicians in their own situations when all Dean has ever done is act as a politician in his position they are leaving reality and rationality at the door and delluding themselves.

Dean is not a progressive visionary, he is not a terribly progressive politician. Dean made a calculated move early in his campaign to go hard anti war and to be more agrressive because he needed to take more risks than the others. It worked very well and he managed to pick up a great deal of strength, and luckily for him his gamble worked. Bush ended up in a muck. Great, good for him. If you want to reward him for his guts, fine. If you truely think that he is the best man for president, or the best candidate to run against Bush, fine. Argue those points. He is a good politician or he wouldnt be here.

But do not sit around and pretend he is some kind of progressive idealogue. He isnt.
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #54
65. Ya know....
This kind of response doesn't exactly swing reasoned people around to your point of view. It just makes you sound as if you have no argument and must therefore be rude in response.

FWIW, I have not yet picked a real horse in this race unless Kucinich manages to surprise everyone. Dean is a possibility to me. His supporters however (some of them at least) seem intent to piss everyone off who doesn't get on the damned bandwagon, and RIGHT NOW!

You aren't doing your guy any favors mate. Trust me on that one.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #37
55. That Passes For Nuance?
1. Dean supported Biden-Lugar, which was not contingent upon proof of an imminent threat.

2. Kerry and Gephardt are not in the same boat, and it is a distortion to present them as equals. Kerry was on the foreign policy committee for 16 years and watched first hand as Saddam yanked UNSCOM's chain throughout the 90's. He also pushed hard to continue negotiations past the 2002 elections for honest debate (Andy Card: you don't introduce in August, etc.).

Rose Gardener Gep on the other hand, pulled the rug out to get Iraq "off the table." Kerry is on the record as pissed at Gep (so was Daschle, Biden, et al).

3. As for being out-smarted by Bush, I point you to #1, and this brief exchange:

Russert: ...and I'll show it to you. You said in January, Governor, "I would be surprised if Saddam didn't have chemicals and biological weapons."

Dean: Oh, well, I tend to believe the president. I think most Americans tend to believe the president.

Russert: What did you think of Senator John Kerry's comments that President Bush misled the country?

Dean: Well, I thought it was Senator Bob Graham that said that and I agree with that.

Russert: No, John Kerry said the president misled us and...

Dean: Well, I wasn't aware that Senator Kerry said it. I knew Senator Graham had said it in Iowa. But I believe that. I think we were misled.

http://www.deanrocks.com/page.cfm?p=1&c=9

I could NEVER trust someone foolish enough to be misled by Bush (that was Dean's comment one month after this interview).
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #55
68. Yep, I do have to post my full list of quotes
Kerry was played for a fool. Dean wasn't. Kerry has no legs to stand on when he attacks Dean on this issue.

Vermont Gov. Howard Dean said if Saddam is shown to have atomic or biological weapons, the United States must act. But he also said Bush must first convince Americans that Iraq has these weapons and then prepare them for the likelihood American troops would be there for a decade.

August 12, 2002

President Bush would have to meet two criteria before he ordered a U.S. invasion, Dean said Sunday during a presidential campaign trip to New Hampshire.

"The first is, he has to show the American people, as President Kennedy did in the Cuban missile crisis, that there’s evidence (Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein) has either atomic or biological weapons and can deliver them," Dean said. "So far he has not made that case. So where’s the threat? We need to see that evidence."

...

"We also have to be honest about how long we’re going to be there. We’re going to have American troops on the ground in Iraq for 10 years," Dean said. "If we’re not honest about that, then I don’t think the president ought to have the right to make the decision to go into a war with Iraq because the American people ought to be told ahead of time what that’s going to mean to us."

August 21, 2002

“He needs to first make the case and he has not done that,” Dean said. “He has never come out and said Saddam (Hussein) has the atomic bomb and we need to deal with him.”

...

"He needs to be forthright with the American people about what this means," said Dean. "If we go into Iraq, we’re going to have to stay for probably five or 10 years."

He warned that simply deposing Hussein is not enough. The United States would have to plant the seeds of democracy in a country with little such tradition, he said.

"Americans are going to have to die and a lot of money is going to be spent," said Dean.

...

"The American people need to be told the truth up front," said Dean. "It’s not going to Afghanistan and it’s not going to be the last Iraqi war. If we don’t stay there and remold the country into a democratic country, which will take 10 years, then it’s stupid to go in there."

September 04, 2002


"There's substantial doubt that is as much of a threat as the Bush administration claims." Though Americans might initially rally to military action, 'that support will be very short-lived once American kids start coming home in boxes,' Mr. Dean warned Wednesday as he campaigned in Iowa.

September 06, 2002

"The president has to do two things to get the country's long-term support for the invasion of Iraq," Dean said in a telephone interview. "He has done neither yet." Dean said President Bush needs to make the case that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, such as atomic or biological weapons, and the means to use them. Bush also needs to explain to the American public that a war against Iraq is going to require a long commitment.

September 18, 2002

Dean, in an interview Tuesday, said flatly that he did not believe Bush has made "the case that we need to invade Iraq." Dean said he could support military action, even outside the U.N., if Bush could "establish with reasonable credibility" that Hussein had the capacity to deliver either nuclear or biological weapons against the United States and its allies. But he said that the president, to this point, hadn't passed that test.

"He is asking American families to sacrifice their children, and he's got to have something more than, 'This is an evil man,' " Dean said. "There are a lot of evil people running countries around the world; we don't bomb every one of them. We don't ask our children to die over every one of them."

September 18, 2002

"I think most of the focus on Iraq is because of their terrible record on the economy and health care," said Dean, a Democrat. "I think there’s a healthy amount of domestic politics involved."

September 25, 2002

"There’s no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the United States and to our allies," Dean said on CBS’ "Face The Nation" via satellite from Austin, Texas.

"The question is, ‘Is he an immediate threat?’ The president has not yet made the case for that. I think it may very well be, particularly with the news that we’ve had over the weekend, that we are going to end up in Iraq. But I think it’s got to be gone about in a very different way."

...

While Dean said the United States must defend itself unilaterally if necessary, he emphasized that now is the time to be getting the cooperation of the United Nations Security Council and U.S. allies.

"It’s not good for the future of the foreign policy of this country to be the big bully on the block and tell people we’re going to do what we want to do," he said.

September 29, 2002

Kerry said he expects Democrats will overwhelmingly approve the pending Senate resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq. "I think there will be a significantly more unified front than in the last Gulf War," he said.

But Dean said there are significant differences among Democrats on the issue, and suggested a political motive for presidential moves toward war.

"What’s the imminent danger?" he asked. "The president has never said, and all the intelligence reports say there isn’t any. It’s hard to escape the conclusion that some of this has to do with the midterm elections."
October 6, 2002


"The president approached it in exactly the wrong way. The first thing I would have done is gone to United Nations Security Council and gone to our allies and say, "Look, the UN resolutions are being violated. If you don't enforce them, then we will have to." The first choice, however, is to enforce them through the UN and with our allies. That's the underlying approach."

October 31st, 2002

"I would like to at least have the president, who I think is an honest person, look us in the eye and say, 'We have evidence, here it is.' We've never heard the president of the United States say that. There is nothing but innuendo, and I want to see some hard facts."

December 22, 2002


Appearing on the CBS news show "Face the Nation," Dean, who is running for president, said President Bush had not made the case to go to war against Saddam Hussein’s Iraq.

...

"I do not believe the president has made the case to send American kids and grandkids to die in Iraq. And until he does that, I don't think we ought to be going into Iraq. So I think the two situations are fairly different. Iraq does not possess nuclear weapons. The best intelligence that anybody can find, certainly that I can find, is that it will be at least a year before he does so and maybe five years."

January 05, 2003

"I personally believe hasn’t made his case"

January 10, 2003

Dean, meanwhile, said he would not have voted for the Iraq resolution, though he is not against the use of military force if necessary.

"The problem with the resolution on Iraq is the president has never made his case," he said.

January 23, 2003

"These are the young men and women who will be asked to risk their lives for freedom. We certainly deserve more information before sending them off to war."

January 29, 2003

"The secretary of state made a compelling case for what the American people already know: Saddam Hussein is a deceitful tyrant who must be disarmed," said Dean. "But I heard little today that leads me to believe that there is an imminent threat warranting unilateral military action by the United States against Iraq."

...

"I am not in the no-way camp. Definitely not. I think Saddam must be disarmed. The problem I have is that I have a deep reluctance to attack a country unilaterally without a pretty high standard of proof," he said. "I am hoping to resolve this peacefully.

"To say you are in the not-yet camp implies that war is inevitable and I don’t think that is true," he added.

Dean did say he is not completely opposed to a U.S. attack on Iraq: "There are circumstances under which I would attack Iraq unilaterally, but we are very far from those circumstances."

February 5, 2003

"Terrorism around the globe is a far greater danger to the United States than Iraq. We are pursuing the wrong war,"

February 5, 2003

"We ought not to resort to unilateral action unless there is an imminent threat to the United States. And the secretary of State and the president have not made a case that such an imminent threat exists.''

February 12, 2003

In an interview, Dean said that he opposed the congressional resolution and remained unconvinced that Hussein was an imminent threat to the United States. He said he would not support sending U.S. troops to Iraq unless the United Nations specifically approved the move and backed it with action of its own.

"They have to send troops," he said.
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/5236485.htm">Feb. 22, 2003

"Well, I think that the United Nations makes it clear that Saddam has to disarm, and if he doesn't, then they will disarm him militarily. I have no problem with supporting a United Nations attack on Iraq, but I want it to be supported by the United Nations. That's a well-constituted body. The problem with the so-called multilateral attack that the president is talking about is an awful lot of countries, for example, like Turkey-- we gave them $20 billion in loan guarantees and outright grants in order to secure their permission to attack. I don't think that's the right way to put together a coalition. I think this really has to be a world matter. Saddam must be disarmed. He is as evil as everybody says he is. But we need to respect the legal rights that are involved here. Unless they are an imminent threat, we do not have a legal right, in my view, to attack them.

February 27, 2003

Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean said Friday he remains unimpressed with President Bush’s argument for attacking Iraq and he called for a standdown of military force.

"We ought not to go attack unilaterally or preemptively," Dean said. "We have a right to strike against those countries that pose an imminent threat and I don’t think Saddam possess an imminent threat."

March 8, 2003

The key is there has to be an imminent danger in order to go into Iraq.
March 9, 2003

MR. RUSSERT: In an interview with Roll Call, the Capitol Hill newspaper, in January, you said this, "In a meeting...with 'Roll Call' editors and reporters, Dean said this if President Bush presented evidence that Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction, 'Then I'd go back to the U.N. and get a new resolution that either disarms in 60 days or we go in.'"

Isn't that exactly what the president did in November? He went to the United Nations, made the case, and it's now been 120 days and Saddam Hussein is still not cooperating.

MR. DEAN: See, I don't think the president has made the case. I think what the president has made a reasonable case for is that Saddam is moving weapons around in terms of biologicals and chemicals, perhaps. He has not made a case for the three things that I think require or enable us to invade unilaterally or pre-emptively or preventively, as we are now calling it. He has not made the case for Saddam possessing nuclear weapons. He has not made the case that he has any kind of a credible nuclear program. And he has not made the case that Saddam is giving weapons of mass destruction to the terrorists. If he were doing any of those things, I think we would have a right to defend ourselves, and we should go in. That case has not been made, either by the president or Secretary Powell, and I don't think that we ought to go in, if we don't want to use the word unilaterally, than preventively or pre-emptively.

...

MR. RUSSERT: If he hadn't disarmed within a year, would that be too long?

MR. DEAN: Well, again, Tim, I prefer very strongly that the United Nations make this decision about disarming Saddam. I said to Mort Kondracke, I think we can get a resolution, and I hope we will get a resolution that says 60 days, but it's the United Nations resolution that's important here.

March 9, 2003

What I want to know is what in the world so many Democrats are doing supporting the President’s unilateral intervention in Iraq?

March 15th, 2003

"I went to Parris Island so I could look into the faces of the kids who will be sent to Iraq," Dean told a cheering lunchtime crowd in Concord, N.H. "We should always support our kids, but I do not support this president's policies and I will continue to say so."

March 18, 2003

"Anti-war Presidential candidate Howard Dean said he will not silence his criticism of President Bush's Iraq policy now that the war has begun, but he will stop the 'red meat' partisan attacks.

"No matter how strongly I oppose the President's policy, I will continue to support American troops who are now in harms way," said Dean

March 20, 2003

While Dean said he was staunchly opposed to the war and planned to continue criticizing it, he also said the United States should keep fighting, putting him at odds with other antiwar activists who have been calling for an immediate cease-fire.

''We're in. We don't have any choice now. But this is the wrong choice,'' Dean said. ''There will be some who think we should get out immediately, but I don't think that's an easy position to take.''

March 23, 2003

"I’m certainly not going to change my message," Dean said. "I don’t see how I could. I think the war is a problem, in terms of our long-term foreign policy."

"What I’ve said is, I’m not going to criticize the president in a partisan way or in a personal way during the war," said Dean. "But for me to change my policy on that now wouldn’t make any sense. I haven’t altered my view about this."

March 24, 2003

On day one of a Dean Presidency, I will reverse this attitude. I will tear up the Bush Doctrine. And I will steer us back into the company of the community of nations where we will exercise moral leadership once again.

April 17th, 2003
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #37
63. Dean not anti-war, Dean nuanced
That is the single funniest post I've ever read.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 02:35 AM
Response to Original message
66. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #66
70. Weak response to hard data.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. It's the 523rd time this arguements come up...
I'm getting a bit weary...

But the fact remains. Dean was clearly and consistantly against the war. Any of the people who voted for the war had time to renounce their vote and come out against it, but they didn't. It's sucks to be them.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. 'Facts' that are open to interpretation are not facts.
It's not like he voted and has a clear record like Kucinich.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. Clear record...
I have 30 sources where Dean spoke against the war and said Bush never made the case, spanning a period of several months.

It's indisputible Dean spoke out against the war consistantly.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. Not so clear from Mr. 30-60 days *nm*
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 03:30 AM by SahaleArm
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. Yeah...
explaining under what conditions (which had not even been met) Dean would use force is the exact same thing as supporting the Iraq war, and totally erases his opposition to the war before, during, and after that quote. Bravo.
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saoirse Donating Member (257 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:34 AM
Response to Original message
77. Herein lies the problem
Trying to be all things to all people.

Nothing spoils success like... success.

I'll vote for the man if he gets the nomination,
but there AIN'T A CHANCE IN HELL he'll win.

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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:15 AM
Response to Original message
78. Stick. Dead horse. Beat. Repeat.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. Well, maybe if they post it a few hundred more times...
And if we stay up for 78 hourse...

And snort a lot of glue..

It might start to make sense..
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. Makes sense to me
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #78
81. Lol...
Love your animations!:toast:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
82. Bottom line: Dean's rhetoric doesn't match Dean's record.
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 03:30 PM by blm
That's why Dean cannot be the nominee. The ammo in the ads will be Dean's own words. The ammo in the ads will be Dean's own record dangled in front of Dean's current rhetoric.

He'll sound like a disingenuous opportunist who switched positions in an election year to get ahead, not because he believed in them.

At least 60+% of the Dems paying attention already think so with no ads influencing us. What will the general electorate think with those ads from the RNC playing in full rotation every day for months?
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
85. No credibility in original post
The original post misquotes the Dean/Russert interview and provides a broken link as the source. Here's the conversation as it actually transpired and which some would, for reasons only they know, rather distort:

--------------------

MR. RUSSERT: ...and I'll show it to you. You said in January, Governor, "I would be surprised if didn't have chemicals and biological weapons."

DR. DEAN: Oh, well, I tend to believe the president. I think most Americans tends to believe the president. It turns out that what the president was saying and what his administration's saying wasn't so. We don't know why that is. So...

MR. RUSSERT: But the Iraqi people are not better off without Saddam Hussein?

DR. DEAN: I think right now they are. Here's the problem. If we can't get our act together in Iraq, and if we can't build Iraq into a democracy, then the alternative is chaos or a fundamentalist regime. That is certainly not a safer situation for the United States of America. And we don't know for sure if it is or not. Saddam Hussein is a dreadful human being. He's a mass murderer. I think it's terrific that he's gone. But the fact is, that in the long term, we went into Iraq for reasons the president of the United States still has not made clear. And because of that, we really don't know what the outcome is going to be.

MR. RUSSERT: What did you think of Senator John Kerry's comments that President Bush misled the country.

DR. DEAN: Well, I thought it was Senator Bob Graham that said that and I agree with that. And Bob Graham is in a position to know. He's a senior senator on the Intelligence Committee and...

MR. RUSSERT: No, John Kerry said the president misled us and...

DR. DEAN: Well, I wasn't aware that Senator Kerry said it. I knew Senator Graham had said it in Iowa. But I believe that. I think we were misled. Now, the question is did the president do that on purpose? Was he misled by his own intelligence people? Was he misled by the people around us? Or did he, in fact, know what the truth was and tell us something different. I've called for an independent investigation headed by Republicans and Democrats who are well respected in the country to find out what the president did know and when he knew it. We essentially went to war, supported by Senator Kerry, Representative Gephardt, Senator Lieberman and Senator Edwards, based on facts that turned out not to be accurate. I think that's pretty serious and I think the American people are entitled to know why that was.

http://www.demog.berkeley.edu/~gabriel/dean2004blog/Dean_MTP_June_22_2003.htm
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