The religious right have invaded my workplace, please go away!

[La Coliniere]

I work at a public elementary school, in a very conservative county, in very liberal NY State. Last week a memo was placed in our mailboxes inviting any member of the staff and faculty to attend weekly prayer sessions to be held once a week, before school, in our public school building.
This memo had the names of the people who already joined this group, as well as the principal, who seems to be their "leader" (Its a known fact that he is studying to be a minister for an evangelical church).
I 'm astonished at how bold these folks are in pushing the envelope of what's tolerable in this era of blurring the distinction between church and state. I used to love going to work, even though I 've known that some of my colleagues had differing political and spiritual ideas than I. I keep my religion out of the workplace, and I don't ram my politics down my colleagues throats either, although I will debate the republican hardliners, any time, any place. Now, when I enter my workplace I'm continually aware of the fact that "they've" created this dichotomy: we the righteous, and you who are not so righteous. By the way, every member of the prayer group is a republican who supports the chimp and his immoral, illegal war in Iraq. I want my country back and for these lunatics to go away. God, their zealotry is starting to really hit close to home and I'm going to fight back. Or should I just drop it? Any suggestions?

[Maru Kitteh]

1. You have a right to not feel singled out or uncomfortable in your workplac

Raise the issue quietly with the principal first, if that does not get results talk to a lawyer and go big with it.

That's my two cents.

[FreedomAngel82]

36. I agree

Tell them you appreciate the sentiament of the invite but you don't share their beliefs and don't want to be invited anymore. If you still have problems than I'd go farther up.

[Vincardog]

2. Try talking to somebody at the ACLU

[sarcasmo]

37. I agree, if you don't stand up to the Christian Taliban who will. ACLU

would love to see a copy of that letter.

[tx_dem41]

3. You're in a very gray area Constitutionally......

It all hangs on if the principal is in any way leading it in his function as principal.

[Robert Cooper]

55. harassment

This isn't a flyer in the mailbox. This is from an administrator to an employee using workplace facilities and services both for the prayer meeting and the invitation.

Who sanctioned this use of the building? Who sanctioned the solicitations? Does the Board know about it? What guarantee does the employee have that a refused invitation won't come back to haunt them during their job performance or promotion interview?

It's always hard to tell someone to buck the system, but I'd fight back.

[bobbieinok]

99. appearance of a threat......principal is on board, 'you better be there'

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. If he used the school copier to make those notices

he is in trouble.

[MADem]

66. Yeah, hang on to that flyer, it is easy to do a forensic look at the copy

and figure out where it came from!

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. That's how they nailed the teacher I knew

who was fired for using the school copier for her church bulletins.

[spooky3]

65. Other laws are also involved. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964

as amended by later laws, prohibits discrimination on the basis of religion in the workplace.

[tx_dem41]

69. Discrimination would have to occur before that law could be...

invoked. At this moment, no discrimination has occurred.

[spooky3]

71. Hostile environment is a type of discrimination that is

prohibited by this law.  If employees are made to feel
uncomfortable because of religious activities, there is a
question of whether there is a hostile environment. 

Note also that many responders to this thread talk about
expected adverse actions if the teacher didn't participate,
given that The Boss is one of the persons who issued the
invitation.  If any of these occurred, that would raise other
possible bases of workplace discrimination.

Edited to provide the following quotes and link:

"Employees cannot be forced to participate -- or not
participate -- in a religious activity as a condition of
employment."  and

"Employers must take steps to prevent religious
harassment of their employees. An employer can reduce the
chance that employees will engage unlawful religious
harassment by implementing an anti-harassment policy and
having an effective procedure for reporting, investigating and
correcting harassing conduct."

http://www.eeoc.gov/types/religion.html

edited again to add more quotes and link:

Religious Speech:  If some complainants make these claims,
some fact-finders may well agree.  A state court has in fact
found that it was religious harassment for an employer to put
religious articles in its employee newsletter and
Christian-themed verses on its paychecks. 26  The EEOC
likewise found that a claim that an employer "permitted
the daily broadcast of prayers over the public address
system" over the span of a year was "sufficient to
allege the existence of a hostile working environment
predicated on religious discrimination." 27  A recent
article by two employment lawyers gives "repeated,
unwanted `preaching´ episodes [by a fundamentalist Christian
employee] that offend coworkers and adversely affect their
working conditions" as a "bright-line
example[]" of actionable harassment; an employer in such
a situation would be "well advised to take swift remedial
action." 28

              If polite religious proselytizing can be
harassment, then of course harsher criticism of religion would
be, too.  In the EEOC's words, "disparag[ing] the
religion or beliefs of others" in the workplace may be
illegal; "a Christian employee would have recourse under
Title VII if a `secular humanist´ employer" -- or
presumably secular humanist coworkers -- "engaged in a
pattern of ridiculing the employee's religious beliefs.´"
29  A state administrative agency has found that an employee
was religiously harassed by a Seventh Day Adventist coworker
who often talked about religion to everyone.  There was no
allegation that the coworker used any religious slurs, though
he did "[make] negative comments to [plaintiff] about her
Lutheran faith," did "criticize[] (and tr[y] to
change) [plaintiff's] personal life style," and did
"depress[] [plaintiff] a great deal" with what
plaintiff saw as "Seventh Day Adventism's `pessimistic
doomsday´ outlook."  Likewise, a federal district court
has held that a pattern of religiously themed comments, which
mostly consisted of statements that the target was a sinner
and had to repent, and didn't include any religious slurs,
could be religious harassment. 30 

http://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/harass/breadth.htm#I

[frazzledmom]

4. If it's not mandatory why would you care if they

want to go pray before school? As long as they keep it out of the classroom I don't see the big deal. Let them wallow in their ignorance.

[misternormal]

7. You know how fundies work...

Job security is at stake here... Any supervisor, if looking deep enough can either find reasons to fire, or make someone's life so miserable they'll opt to quit.

Be ready for an interesting fight, but for your own piece of mind, don't give up, or give in.

[FormerDittoHead]

13. Because the next circular will list those who DON'T come, THAT'S why.. n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

19. It's a PUBLIC school. Not everyone who pays taxes to support the schools

are Christian? What's wrong with meeting at a church to pray? I'm still trying to figure out why churches even exist. Sundays ONLY? Or what? Schools are not the place to be holding prayer meetings, IMCPO.
They hand out Bibles in front of schools and hold morning prayer meetings at schools...next up, PRAYER IN THE CLASSROOMS. It's a small leap from where we are with these people.

[frazzledmom]

28. While I see your point

what if they were forming a progressive group to meet before school. Would you be against that? I do understand that they are trying to get a foot in the door but if I ask myself honestly I would have to admit that I wouldn't be against a liberal or progressive group meeting before school so unless they are trying to make it mandatory or do it during school hours I would have to let them have their little prayer group. Now the minute that they try to push it beyond a before school meeting I'm in for the fight.

[mondo joe]

31. If fundies had aa better track record there'd be little reason to worry.

But we've seen time and time again that they have no boundaries and will push every opportunity to the legal limit and beyond.

I would further suggest that the principal's job, when done well, would be to bring staff together on the work they do - not participate in divisive issues using the school to do so.

[FreedomAngel82]

41. How do you know these people are fundies though?

As a Christian I find that offensive and I haven't seen any sort of proof that these people are fundies. Just because the principle is working on being a preacher doesn't mean he's a fundie either. There are still really good preachers out there (mine is a great one). We're not all like them and as long as it's before school hours and not mandatory they aren't doing anything wrong legally I don't see. I remember when I was in high school before school began this group (some Christian club) would meet at the flag and pray silently. They never bothered anybody and never pressured anybody and everybody knew they were there at the same time. So I think as long as it's nothing mandatory and they aren't being pushy and everything than you should let it be and just throw away the invite.
If they keep bothering you just throw it away. I wouldn't comfront them until they bugged me in person.

[mondo joe]

42. I'm trusting the OP who deemed them "the religious right".

And we know there is much that goes on in the workplace that skirts the issues of legality with regared to pressure and coercion.

[FreedomAngel82]

46. You're lumping them all together

I don't like them anymore than everyone else here does, but just because someone is religious and a republican and supports Bush doesn't mean they are fundies. My Grandma for the longest time supported Bush and is a very religious Christian. She just recently confessed out of nowhere that she is even doubting him and his faith with all of his lying. So just because someone is religious and a republican doesn't necessarily mean they are a totally fundie. I still haven't seen any sort of proof they are from the orignial poster. All the orignial poster stated is they know they support Bush and all of his plans and are religious and invited them to a prayer session. Now if they were passing out anti-gay lit and anti this or that than that would be a better clue.

[mondo joe]

48. I'm lumping them based on the OP's first hand knowledge and my

experience. If they are religious, republican and support Biush they are as fundy as I care to know.

What they are FOR tells me as much about them as what they're AGAINST.

[rpannier]

87. I think you several excellent points

Being a Christian does not make one a fundamentalist, nor does it make one a follower of Pat Robertson (not all fundies think robertson is cool). Second, being a minister is not a bad thing. Third, back when I lived in the US, I saw schools where students and/or faculty met before school to pray. My attitude is, their business not mine.

[oxbow]

62. let them have their prayer group

let em slide on the solicitation this time too. If it starts becoming a habit, then it's time to have some sort of confrontation.

I think they're allowed to ask ONE time if anybody else wants to join them in their little group.
After that, it becomes harassment

[northzax]

83. progressivism is not a religion

there is no constitutional wall between politics and state.

Basically, I'd let one slide, but I might make it clear to the principal that others might find it coercive and have a problem with it.

[leesa]

75. It's a PUBLIC building.

[alcuno]

5. I'm a public school teacher and a union officer.

And I don't even know where to begin. My first question, maybe because I'm Catholic, is what's a prayer session?

Second of all, do you have a union? You can anonymously have the union leadership bring this up with the superintendent and the members of the School Board.

This is odd and I have to think about it more.

[alcuno]

16. Definitely go to the union.

If you are a member of a union, go to the leadership. Leave a message on their voicemail if you want.

Often, central administration and the School Board members have no idea the nutty things going on in the schools.

If you are not a member of a union, see if their is someone else sympatheitc to the cause who is who will go to their union. I've done meetings with the Sup a hundred times and we say, "we hear from Building A that x, y and z are going on. Did you know that?"

[La Coliniere]

22. The union

is presently involved. Their main concern is that this memo may be interpreted as a subtle form of coercion by un tenured teachers. The union is responding to this issue, I'm not the only employee in the school who is having an issue with this prayer group, not by a long shot.

[alcuno]

26. Excellent. Wait to see the outcome before doing more.

Our superintendent is continually getting regaled with stories from the trenches. Those building administrators are always getting themselves in trouble. Not every problem is a grievance or a lawsuit. My guess is that the administrator went ahead with this without any approval from higher ups.

[Gormy Cuss]

38. Coercion is exactly the problem.

The principal has no business being involved in such a thing on campus. That's like the boss doing an ideology check. At least you have union representation.

[mondo joe]

44. You got it. I'm reminded of the value of unions by this case.

I'm very conflicted about unions - I hope never to belong to one, personally. But that has more to do with the sort of work I do and the employers I'm likely to have. I do recognize that in some settings unions are cruicial to a fair workplace - and this could be one of those cases.

[MissMarple]

96. Unions have done an excellent job overall.

As with any human venture they are subject to the vagaries of human nature. Corruption has and will occur, and they need to be endlessly monitored to ameliorate it.

However, specifically in regard to the teachers' unions, I believe they have kept many in the teaching profession who would other wise be making more money elsewhere. In the 70's when women were flocking to the other professions, teaching lost many of the "best and the brightest". The unions fought and did obtain better wages and fair benefits for school personnel. This drew and kept many in teaching who would have otherwise pursued other careers.

Are they perfect? No. Do they need to focus on teacher training and better ways to teach today's children? Yes. Do teachers need better pay? Yes. Do the unions need to work with the districts to find better ways to evaluate teachers and move under performing teachers to other jobs? Absolutely.

[kestrel91316]

89. Exactly - this IS an ideology check, and rather blatant.

[MissMarple]

95. Coercion is exactly the point if the administration is involved.

It creates "insiders" and "outsiders", and can actually spill over to impair student performance. The principal will then begin to favor and even hire "insiders" regardless of teaching ability. Professionalism and focus on student achievement goes out the window.

But, hey, I'm sure they will do "a heck of a job". ;)

[FreedomAngel82]

43. A prayer session

is where you meet and just pray for anything you feel you need to pray for. I think the only thing really odd is them doing it at school. I've never known of that but I personally don't see anything wrong if they aren't totally bothering you to where it's annoying and they aren't making it mandatory (such as show up or be fired). I'm sure if you knew other teachers were in the school who shared your faith (the orginial poster) than you could set up a group as well to meet somewhere in the school. If the principle tried to stop your group than you'd probably have something.

[proud2BlibKansan]

60. I am a public school teacher and I used to be a union officer

and I know this would never be OK in my district. Not in a million years.

1. improper use of mailboxes
2. school district must approve all meetings taking place in the building
3. the principal leading the group could be construed as pressure to attend
4. if the principal used the copier or school paper to print the notices, he is in trouble

[Cassandra]

6. NYC is the liberal part.

There are so many of us here that it makes the state look liberal but it's actually quite conservative up there.
My sympathies to you in your time of oppression.

[WePurrsevere]

30. Actually I thought that as well until I saw the 2004 red/blue area map

we're actually a lot more purple up here then folks usually think :) and from what I'm hearing people seem to be waking up and we're getting bluer up here every day.

2004 US elections purple counties:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=edit&forum=104&topic_id=5350368&mesg_id=5350932

[kahleefornia]

8. it's the righteousness

that's the problem. For some reason, if people at your school wanted to have a Buddhism meeting before or after hours it wouldn't be so offensive. But I understand - they're not going to just have their little prayer meetings. They're going to give you looks like "Oh, there's that liberal heathen - we need to pray for him/her". And you'll get those sideways comments about how happy they are compared to you, who must not be happy enough without Jesus and GW Bush to tell you what to do.

It's not the religion itself that is the problem - it's the cult mentality that some of these groups get into.

If I were you, I'd be passive aggressive and start a liberal political discussion group that meets at the same time as their prayer group. Then watch them be frustrated because they can't say a thing about it unless they want to stop their prayer meetings. It would be childish and unproductive, but that's what I'd do. Can't help it sometimes!

[frazzledmom]

10. Now that is a great idea!

:toast:

[EVDebs]

21. Great idea, and while they're at it discuss matter mentioned in post #11

Along with Christopher Hedges

Soldiers of Christ II : Feeling the hate
www.harpers.org/FeelingTheHate.html

and George Monbiot's

Their beliefs are bonkers, but they are at the heart of power--
US Christian fundamentalists are driving Bush's Middle East policy
www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1195568,00.html

Their preoccupation with a Third Temple (where antichrist is to come prior to Second Coming of Christ) to the neglect of the Gospel's actual calling is their main failing (the log in their eye while they point at specks in others), see

Impact of Millenium on Holy Land
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week319/cover.html and

Christian Zionism, Evangelicals and Israel, by Gary M. Burge, Ph.D.
http://www.hcef.org/hcef/index.cfm/ID/159

along with the books End Times Delusions by Steve Wohlberg and Forcing God's Hand by Grace Halsell (former LBJ speechwriter) make the case for shaming this group by pointing out to them their actual abuse of the scriptures for their own ends and gratifications (holier than thou treatment of others).

We should also pray for them.

[La Coliniere]

12. Thanks kahlee

Your observations are very astute, the righteousness aspect is downright annoying. My first thought of how to handle it was as you suggest, but I'm there for my students first and foremost and I really don't want this issue to supersede my primary responsibility.
P.S. Congrats about last Tues.

[kahleefornia]

67. that's very understandable

And admirable. If you can ignore it, great. Let us know how things go.

Thanks - last Tues. was awesome!!!!

[FreedomAngel82]

49. I do like the idea of counteracting the group

If you feel the need to do so than you can have meetings yourself. This would be a test to see how far this group would go. So far I haven't really seen anything of a problem but if you do try this and the principal stops you than that really means something and would show me their colors. True Christian's wouldn't have any problem with other groups meeting on the campus.

[MindPilot]

9. check with the Freedom From Religion Foundation

www.ffrf.org

Oftentimes all it takes is a letter from a church/state separation organization to make them stop.

[La Coliniere]

14. Thanks

I'll look into this.

[in_cog_ni_to]

Is that legal? Holding a prayer meeting in a PUBLIC school? n/t

[FreedomAngel82]

51. I'm not sure

I remember in high school there was a group who met and prayed at the flag outside of school before school began. I think it's okay as long as it's not during school hours and you don't fire anybody for not showing up. Such as that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. There were high schools nationwide that did that

and several were sued by the ACLU. One in my area had to stop their prayer around the flagpole group; they lost in court.

[EVDebs]

11. Determine if he holds to the "futurist" eschatological viewpoint

This would mean the same held by the authors of the Left Behind series of novels. In that case you may wish to engage him/them in the debate as to the validity of this 'end times' viewpoint.

The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm

The debate over Historicism, Futurism, and Preterism should wake them up as to whether they are, as my old college New Testament professor once said, "so heavenly minded that they're no earthly good".

[NAO]

15. Contact the 'Freedom From Religion Foundation'

they may be able to help. They work cases like these and are more specialized than the ACLU for fighting religuos intrusion into the public sector.

Freedom From Religion Foundation
http://ffrf.org/

[immoderate]

17. Ask if they will pray for peace.

Also inquire if it is nondenominational. What are say, Jewish teachers supposed to do?

--IMM

[struggle4progress]

86. !

[kevinbgoode]

18. If any of these people asks you to join them

all you need to say is: "I'm sorry, but I don't believe that school is a place for political party organizations, particularly ones that are thinly disguised as "religious."

Don't wait for them to respond. Smile and walk away.

[LeftCoast]

20. Because they've displayed the names of the group members and one is

your boss, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that this is creating a hostile work environment. Hope things blow over. :hi:

[Fla Dem]

52. Yes, that is subtle intimidation. Wat if they actively started to

recruit more school employees to participate? What if it becomes a topic of discussion during staff meeting ? I can just imagine someone saying; "We prayed for the poor Jones boy today." or "We said a prayer today that all the students will score well on the standardized test." While the sentiment is fine, it places non-participators in an awkward position.

Also, was/is school supplies used to create fliers?

I know all so picky, but gosh it sure does seem like proselytizing to me, partically where the principle is studing to be a minister.

[Warren DeMontague]

23. Organize a flying spaghetti monster worship prayer group

on a different day.

http://venganza.org

[La Coliniere]

24. LOL

A colleague wants to have a weekly wiccan prayer thing.

[tanyev]

25. That was my first idea! You probably wouldn't even need to actually

have one, just put a flyer in everyone's box inviting them. Sit back and watch the fur fly.

[Fla Dem]

39. Now, I like that idea.....the reaction would be interesting. LOL n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. Don't use the mailboxes

pass them out in person and not during school hours.

[tanyev]

91. Yes, that would be the appropriate way to do it,

but the point is that the first round of invitations was put into everyone's mailboxes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

98. And that could be key to stopping these meetings

So she shouldn't repeat the mistake.

[tanyev]

101. Before one does what is logical, rational, and appropriate,

one may certainly think about how funny it would be to do something wildly inappropriate.

[Bigmack]

88. Print the flyers at Kinko's...

.. so they can't be traced and slip them into office boxes and onto bulletin boards.

Don't stop with Wiccans... try the Hare Krishnas and every fringe group you can think of.

[frazzledmom]

29. Humor is the greatest weapon known to mankind

:toast:

[sarcasmo]

40. WWFSMD, hello brother Pastafarian.

[raysr]

27. My daughter-in-law

works for a truck-brokerage firm and the same is happening there.

[stanwyck]

32. Every year when we have our company

Thanksgiving buffet at work, I mysteriously disappear during the opening remarks, which always include one of our fundy co-workers and their wingnut diatribe. Last year's, as reported to me, was our worst offender. This guy is a real Bushie and he took the opportunity to make a particularly obnoxious speech. He even evoked the name of my son, a Marine then in Iraq. (he forgot to mention my son is a liberal who voted for Kerry).
So. I have an urgent phone call/situation which I just have to take care of during that time. Other co-workers do likewise. One guy always has to take his dog to the vet. Every year. He even passes on the incredible food. Because he just can't stomach the pious, smug fundamentalism which has no place in our workplace.

[bluedawg12]

34. WTF!? Kerry and Santorum sponsored Workplace Religious Freedom Act

Was anyone aware of this doozey? Just ran across it researching this thread.

http://home1.gte.net/lardil/id241.html

The ultra-conservative Santorum and the famously L-word Kerry are joined by a bipartisan list of strange bedfellows that includes everyone from Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, to Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y. And WRFA is endorsed by more than 40 religious groups — a mind-boggling coalition ranging from the Southern Baptist Convention to the North American Council for Muslim Women.


http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=15886&c=142

ACLU Letter on the Harmful Effect of S. 893, the Workplace Religious Freedom Act, on Critical Personal and Civil Rights

June 2, 2004




Dear Senator:

The American Civil Liberties Union strongly urges you to oppose S. 893, the Workplace Religious Freedom Act (“WRFA”)--unless it is amended to ensure that the legislation will not have the presumably unintended consequence of harming critical personal and civil rights of coworkers, customers, or patients. Unless amended, the bill would threaten important rights of religious minorities, racial minorities, women, gay men and lesbians, and persons seeking reproductive health care and mental health services.

Religious Minorities: The courts have rejected an array of claims by employees claiming a right to proselytize others, or otherwise engage in unwanted religious activities directed toward others, while at work.

A county sheriff did not have to accommodate--and thereby risk disrupting the county’s religious neutrality policy--a social worker hired to provide secular mental health counseling to county prisoners, but who used Bible readings, prayer, and the “casting out of demons” with the inmates. Spratt v. County of Kent, 621 F. Supp. 594 (W.D. Mich. 1985), aff’d, 810 F.2d 203 (6th Cir. 1986). Similarly, a Veterans Administration hospital had no obligation to accommodate a hospital chaplain in a psychiatric department whose practices included interfering with medical decisions, contradicting religious advice given by another chaplain to a patient, and using graphic metaphors in talks that confused the psychiatric patients--because such practices were antithetical to the medical work of the hospital. Baz v. Walters, 782 F.2d 701 (7th Cir. 1986).
A court held that an employer had no duty to accommodate an employee’s need to write letters to both a supervisor and a subordinate at their homes severely criticizing their private lives and urging religious solutions. Chalmers v. Tulon Co. of Richmond, 101 F.3d 1012 (4th Cir. 1996). The court reasoned that accommodating the employee’s need to send these letters would subject the employer to potential liability for not protecting the religious rights of its other employees. Id. at 1021. Similarly, a court held that a retail employer did not have to accommodate an employee’s religious belief that “required her to preface nearly every sentence she spoke with the phrase “In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth” because it would impose an undue hardship of “offend the religious beliefs or non beliefs of its customers.” Johnson v. Halls Merchandising, Inc., 1989 WL 23201 (W.D. Mo. 1989). In a similar case, an employer reasonably accommodated an employee’s need to say “Have a Blessed Day” to everyone in the workplace by allowing her to use the phrase with coworkers, but prohibiting her from using the phrase with clients that complained about its use. Anderson v. U.S.F. Logistics (IMC), Inc., 274 F.3d 470 (7th Cir. 2001).

[bluedawg12]

33. Take careful notes, research the matter, find a lawyer>>>

I posted about this type of experience that happened to me, on another thread here at DU. (Link at the bottom of this reply) So, yes your denomination can play a big role in earning your daily bread, even in modern day America.

Some organized religious groups, have become aggressive in using religion as a tool in society.

In your case, because it takes place at work, involves co-workers and a direct supervisor, it could be argued that it is coercive. Meaning, if you don’t play ball you will be dealt with differently than those co-workers who are part of this group.

It also seems coercive because they did not post a flyer in the teachers lounge, as a general invitation, they placed individual memo’s- thus singling out each employee, in the mailboxes. Further evidence of coercion is that the names of those who attend are posted. That is pressure and coercion.

In another words, a prayer meeting in the morning, announced by a public flyer, open to all, as a voluntary and open meeting would be dubious, but more tolerable, but individual memo’s and listing the names of others so that those not attending feel monitored and excluded is wrong and that is what creates a hostile environment.

These intrusive "faith-baiters" do this for several reasons above and beyond “prayer”.

First of all, it is a social litmus test. Because if you are an Evangelical then they know that you:

1.) Are not a practicing gay.
2.) Are anti-choice.
3.) You are not a papist.
4.) And probably go along with the entire shopping cart full of conserva-pig dogma.

I think it also creates a hostile working environment. It’s an us v. them posture.
I know that former Atty. Gen. Asscrafty held daily AM prayer meetings, so there is a president in society that signals that this type of exclusionary behavior is OK, even at the highest levels of government.

I would NOT:
1.) Debate them.
2.) Inflame them
3.) Draw attention by having counter -meetings.
That will only ignite their self righteousness and feelings of persecution for the sake of their faith.

I would:
1.) Take careful notes and keep every flyer.
2.) Write down any comment that any co-worker might make to you about religion and/or the meetings.
3.) Quietly go about gathering info. from the groups that were mentioned here.
This web site has some really useful info:
http://www.tangledmoon.org/work-harrassment.htm

This is a WICCANS story of how work discrimination evolved for her.
http://members.aol.com/Runes3/work.htm


Also know thy enemy.
They may claim you are discriminating against them!

Check out this rightwing site:

http://www.rutherford.org/issues/religious_freedom.asp

Religious Discrimination in the Workplace:
An Epidemic in Need of a Legislative Cure
Calling on Congress to take legislative action to protect the rights of religious individuals in the workplace, The Rutherford Institute has issued a special report and 10-year overview of religious discrimination in the workplace. In addition to illustrating how protections for religious persons in the workplace have been weakened by various court rulings over the years, the report provides a 10-year overview of workplace religious discrimination cases handled by Rutherford Institute attorneys and highlights the sharp increase of religious discrimination complaints filed with the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) in recent years. Specifically, the report calls for the passage of the proposed Workplace Religious Freedom Act (WRFA), which was co-sponsored by Senators John Kerry (D-Mass.) and Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) and has languished in Congress since being introduced in April 2003. More.


......
I was asked about my religious denomination on 3 job interviews.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5349763&mesg_id=5349933
......

[FreedomAngel82]

35. While I understand completley how you feel

I don't think this is a huge ordeal. They're not totally pushing religion on you. Just inviting you and you can always throw away the invite. Now if they keep pressuring you and you've denied it already than that would be a bigger deal. It is frustrating and I am getting tired of them too (and I'm a Christian myself). So while I understand completley how you feel I would let this one go and save the fight for another day. Something bigger might come a long that you'd really need to fight.

[bluedawg12]

47. Boy, I sure disagree. Religious activism in the work place?

That's not faith neutral.

As I explained my opinion, in an above reply, they crossed the line when they placed memo's in each persons mail box and listed co-workers who had joined the prayer group, among them the boss.

One memo placed on a public BB would be barely intrusive. These people have crossed the line.

This teacher needs to keep records and at last consult an attorney once.

[mondo joe]

50. And having the boss lead the group is a problem too.

We recognize all sorts of behavior as creating an ENVIRONMENT of sexual harassment which, to my thinking, are less coercive than this.

[jazzjunkysue]

80. I know the law, and the leader cannot be part of the prayer, or be

an administrator.

The law states that you can have prayer in schools, but the school person in charge cannot lead the prayers. They simply serve as a security representative when kids are involved. Since these are adults, they don't need supervision at all.

The law would shut this down because it's being lead by an administrator, but the rest of it is legal.

However, if that administrator tries to put anything religous into the regular workings of the school, they're breaking the law. It's a violation of the establishment clause.

[Vincardog]

54. That is right move along nothing to see here. Better to fight another

day on something important. Not like having your boss coerce you into his faith based cabal is anything to worry about you can always say no. You can stand idly by as they take over your school and start teaching ID in place of real science. They only want to corrupt the public school system from the inside proving that public education does not work. That being the best reason to de-fund public education and let the private sector spew their hate for them.

What ever you don't fight back.


In case you missed it this post is dripping with
:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Bluestar]

57. To FreedomAngel

I love your posts--I almost always agree with your opinions. But in this case, I think we need to look at what some of our Christian friends are about.

I believe the term "fundie" refers to fundamentalist Christian. If I remember correctly from my early indoctrination into this church, this is one who believes in a literal interpretation of the Bible. They believe in the literal translation of every miracle, a pure virgin birth, the story of creation--many things that other Christian faiths have termed as parables, or metaphor for explaining Christian concepts.

The poster said that the principal was studying to be a minister of an "evangelical" church. Evangelism is the spreading of one's religion to others. I was raised in an fundamentalist/evangelical church. The evangelistic part was where we were told we first must be "saved" and then spread the gospel to everyone we meet. We were to aggressively attempt to get others to conform to our belief system. I believe this is what the principal is doing, and therefore he must be stopped. I hope what he is doing is still illegal in this country and I think the union is the first place to start.

[upi402]

45. ACLU -the cure for the new cancer!

These people need to be cut from the fabric of America if they cannot leave us to live our lives.

I HOPE THERE'S A HELL!

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. Call the district's office

Is it big enough to have an in house attorney? Call him. Or call the state dept of education.

No way would this EVER fly in the large urban district where I work. No way at all. Putting the notices in school district mailboxes (yes, those mailboxes belong to the school distrct, not to the individual employees) is enough to charge them with crossing that line they know they aren't supposed to cross.

In my district, a teacher was reprimanded for putting church notices in mailboxes. Another was fired for using the school copier to run off bulletins for her church. So I know they can't use your mailboxes for this.

You might try to find out if they used the school copier to print these flyers.

Good luck!!

[bluedawg12]

56. Problem: organized religion is in support of religion in the work place!

God bless the ACLU for their hard work.

In reviewing my goggle search, it looks like the Sikhs, and Jews, and even a coalition of organized religion are in favor of the
Workplace Religious Freedom Act.

http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/970808/bill.shtml

>"For many religiously observant Americans, the greatest peril to their ability to carry out their religious faiths on a day-to-day basis may come from employers," said Richard Foltin, chairman of a broad coalition of religious and civil liberties groups supporting the legislation<

Give me a break. Oh that repressive American work place enivornment that does not accomodate every one of a hundred holy-days, head ware, swastika's, and a gazillion more outer trappings of personal faith.

>The new bill is a modified version of similar legislation Kerry introduced at the beginning of the current 105th Congress. Other workplace discrimination bills were introduced in the previous two Congresses, but no action was taken, mostly because of time constraints.

A companion bill, introduced in January by Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.) in the House, is still pending.<

Let's uncork Religious Freedom in the Work Place and watch the loonies and control freaks emerge!

http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=15886&c=142

>>Over the past 25 years, employees have brought an array of claims for employers to accommodate religious practices that would have resulted in harm to critical personal or civil rights.

If WRFA had been law, the following rejected religious accommodation claims could have been decided differently:

police officer’s request to refuse to protect an abortion clinic,

another police officer’s request to abstain from arresting protestors blocking a clinic entrance,

social worker’s decision to use Bible readings, prayer, and the “casting out of demons” with inmates in a county prison, instead of providing the county’s required secular mental health counseling,

state-employed visiting nurse’s decision to tell an AIDS patient and his partner that God “doesn’t like the homosexual lifestyle” and that they needed to pray for salvation,

delivery room nurse’s refusal to scrub for an emergency inducement of labor and an emergency caesarian section delivery on women who were in danger of bleeding to death,

two different male truck drivers and a male emergency medical technician request to avoid overnight work shifts with women because they could not sleep in the same quarters with women,

employee assistance counselor’s request to refuse to counsel unmarried or gay or lesbian employees on relationship issues,

hotel worker’s decision to spray a swastika on a mirror as a religious “good luck” symbol,

private sector employee’s request to uncover and display a KKK tattoo of a hooded figure standing in front of a burning cross,

state-employed sign language interpreter’s request to proselytize and pray aloud for her assigned deaf mental health patients,
and
retail employee’s request to begin most statements on the job with “In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.”

These examples were all actual cases brought into federal court by employees claiming that their employers refused to provide a reasonable accommodation of their religious beliefs. <<

[YOY]

59. Agree to come but only if they let you worship the FSM...

n/t

[bluedawg12]

64. Ahh, now we can see why SCOTUS and Alito are so important!

They want special rights for religous groups and churches.

"This has nothing to do with protecting legitimate religious exercise. It's all about creating 'special rights' for churches and other faith groups, and discriminating against millions of Atheists and other nonbelievers..."- American Atheists California State Director Dave Kong

A conservative SCOTUS will do more than reverse Roe. They will allow those forces that want to impose their version of religion on the lives of others to have special rights to do this.
.....

No one wose testicles have been crushed or his penis cut off, may be admitted into the community of the Lord. - Deuteronomy 23:2.

......
http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/rfra18.htm

>Only Justice John Paul Stevens directly addressed the substance of the RFRA in his concurring decision in Boerne:

In my opinion, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 (RFRA) is a 'law respecting an establishment of religion' that violates the First Amendment to the Constitution.

If the historic landmark on a hill in Boerne, Texas happened to be a museum or an art gallery owned by an atheist, it would not be eligible for an exemption from the city ordinance that forbid an enlargement of the structure. Because the landmark is owned by the Catholic Church, it is claimed that RFRA gives its owner a federal statutory entitlement to an exemption from a generally applicable, neutral civil law. Whether the Church would actually prevail under the statute or not, the statute has provided the Church with a legal weapon that no atheist or agnostic can obtain. The government preference for religion, as opposed to irreligion, is forbidden by the First Amendment...<

and...

>The same can be said of the RFPA on the state level. The RFPA essentially fosters a system of "dual justice," and exempts religious groups and practices from the civil laws that apply to everyone else-private individuals, businesses, and even civic institutions. It encourages "special rights" for believers, and in the process of doing so, discriminates against millions of Americans who profess no religious beliefs.<

[upi402]

70. Pass out Paganism books in the school parking lot and it will stop

Quick fast and in a hurry, it will end when Satanic literature is being promoted right next to bibles, etc.

[Cleita]

72. Do not feel coerced to attend those prayer meetings.

They have the right to pray if they want to, but any intimidation to make you do so gives you a case to take to the right authorities.

[insane_cratic_gal]

73. Our school on weekends is a church

I found out that out last year when my neighbor who is trying to find a church and raise money for .. invited me to attend his session held at our elementary school.

I about fell down!

A pay decent wage in taxes, I don't mind doing it because I know it goes for our local schools, but when I found this out I was a bit taken back.

Tell me again about separation of church and state? How is using the premises my tax dollars go to support, not a violation of that? It sort of muddles the whole perceived barriers when your giving mass in the cafeteria doesn't it?

[Cleita]

77. Sometimes we get too picky about allowing our classrooms

to be rented out for other uses, when they aren't being used for school. I once lived in a place where the only building that could be used for public meetings was the school. It was in a very remote place, so traveling priests, rabbis and ministers set up weekly services for their congregations. Town meetings and other political venues were held there too along with traveling enterainment and shows that would do a circuit in the villages and camps in this place.

I also noticed that churches are often used for voting precincts and no one gets upset about the separation of church and state issue there. I think just a lot of common sense needs to enter in these debates.

[spooky3]

78. Actually, many people do object to the use of churches for voting

particularly if there are alternatives available.

FFRF has done some work on this--sorry, I don't have a link other than their general website.

www.ffrf.org

[Cleita]

82. Yes, but some of those churches have the best facilities for

voting, especially the ramps and other facilities for the handicapped. I really am not into throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[tanyev]

85. That's pretty common here for new churches starting out.

But I'm pretty sure they have to pay a fee to use the facility.

[leesa]

74. Please don't just drop it. It is a public place and they should not be

doing this in your building. I stopped some anti-abortion e-mails that were circulating this way...if you don't speak out, who will?

[0rganism]

76. Start a Pagan ritual group that meets before school in another building

See if they get the message that way.

[LevelB]

79. I am dumbass intolerant

I would go and then pray aloud for God to deliver us from the evil that is Dubya and the Culture of Corruption that is crushing our country.

But that is me ;)

B.

(and as the OP said, I am also religious).

Edit: typo

[tlsmith1963]

81. You Should Fight

If they are trying to shove their religion down other peoples' throats, it's wrong. America has many religions, and fundamentalist Christians have a bad habit of forgetting this. This is why religion should stay out of the schools. Students come from many different backgrounds & religions. You cannot force someone else's religion on them. It's wrong. It's better to leave religion at church. If people want religion, go to church. No one is stopping anyone from doing this.

Tammy

[DanCa]

84. I had this very same problem until i put a sign up.

It said from 7 -4 no politics no religion no problem Causal buisness conversation only. Than while most of the cloned ones left me alone I decided to be big about it and let them have thier "prayer meeting." I hope that helps in some small way. Danny.
:hugs:

[Festivito]

90. From my different perspective.

Free speech can be loutish, but the alternative I deem worse, so I defend free speech, first and foremost.

The ACLU and I have subtly differing views of separation of church and state. They see it as a requirement of the first amendment, I see it as built from the first amendment. And I see a wall built not from silence and forced inaction, rather from tolerance of free speech's noise and free practice's non-right infringing intrusions.

That said, I see an invitation as an invitation, a choice, not a mandate that forces you to practice another religion. No hidden punitive notions for not attending I take it. No overwhelming the invitation world such that it were to occlude or exclude other possible invitations as a free speech issue. You are still able to practice your religion, or lack thereof, and are under no obligation(of law, certainly) to practice anyone else's.

Whether they practice (practice is their right) in a school room or at a local chain restaurant, they will still be deemed just as self-righteous zealous lunatic bigoted or whatever. The location they are in won't affect your opinion of that.

It is also an offer made to anyone, no discrimination. If it were an invite to a party the local rules of copier usage would apply. It seems reasonable to me that something for the benefit of choice of the teachers is a benefit to the school and warrants the use of a copier paid for by the school.

Just because you don't wish to use your first amendment right at work or wherever, does not mean that others cannot use theirs -- unless you change the Constitution.

This is actually a grand opportunity to sway opinion, were you to be so imbued with prayerful grace. Not the case? Shucks! They could use you. US could benefit. Alas.

Again, this depends upon my subtle differing.

[mcscajun]

92. If they were gathering privately before school to pray off campus,

no problem. Gathering privately before school to pray on campus and keeping it to themselves, small problem.

BUT...putting all the names of those participating on a memo, with the principal leading the group? HUGE Problem, it smacks of more than just peer pressure, but not-too-subtle coercion, loyalty oaths and blacklists.


The Duke of Norfolk: Oh confound all this. I'm not a scholar, I don't know whether the marriage was lawful or not but dammit, Thomas, look at these names! Why can't you do as I did and come with us, for fellowship!

Sir Thomas More: And when we die, and you are sent to heaven for doing your conscience, and I am sent to hell for not doing mine, will you come with me, for fellowship?

[wryter2000]

93. Americans United for Separation of Church and State

www.au.org

They ought to be able to tell you if you have reason to take action or not. They're also very good at sending letters to educate people about the issues, rather than going immediately to legal remedies.

Besides, Barry Lynn is my hero. :evilgrin:

[BJW]

94. Do Not Be a Hero Here

unless you want to seriously risk losing your job. Report it anonymously to sympathetic: media figures, politicos, school board members and your union reps first. If it's necessary for you to later "go public" to pursue this, fine, if you want to, but your first option s/b to get others involved w/o openly involving you.

[TrogL]

97. Inform the parents

It's time for the principal to go.

[GreenPartyVoter]

100. You can fight this quietly. Make your opinions known without raising a

hullaballoo. Just be a shining example of a progressive and stand out as an alternative to their "moral majority".

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[proud2BlibKansan]

102. Great link, Green!

I am adding it to my favorites. Thanks! :hi:

[GreenPartyVoter]

103. Glad you like it. Get the word out cause I am not having much luck in

climbing up in the search engines. :P

[proud2BlibKansan]

104. You know I will

:hi:

[GreenPartyVoter]

105. :^D