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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:03 PM
Original message
(Continued) "Here is a new wrinkle on the Gannongate story..."
Edited on Mon Feb-21-05 06:03 PM by Faye
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Thank you mods. Anyone who was trying to post more info or questions on the original thread, please post them here!! (Mod gave permission to start a new thread, so here it is.....)
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greenmutha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. YAY! Thanks, Mods! n/t
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jeanarrett Donating Member (813 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. I often have to print these threads to read later. . .
This one was 142 pages when I printed it (because I'm work when I try to read them). I just read what I had when I got home and will go back to the other thread and finish it. But here is what I've noticed by being able to go back and thumb through the pages rather than having to scroll up and down the pages, look for yourself:

1. If you compare merh's "another image of jimmy-jeff" at post #170 and

2. Minstrel Boy's photoshopped (with no hair) age-enhanced photo of Johnny Gosch at #227, even with an "age-enhanced" photo, the similarities are uncanny, right down to the dimples.

Now, if Minstrel Boy photoshopped the other age-enhanced photo with no hair at post 162 by chiburb (a different age-enhanced photo than the other one), I think the look-alike would be even more remarkable.

This is fascinating, but a stretch. But what if it were true. . . poor Jeff/James/Johnny would certainly be deserving of our sympathy and compassion. I can't even fathom. . . I would have to agree with the other posters that he's probably in grave danger.
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NV Whino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Just a reminder...
As interesting a theory as this is, the ears don't match. Always, always, always look at the ears. They are the hardest thing to change by surgery. Most people trying to change don't bother with ears. Ears maintain shape and set to head from child to adult.

Jimmy-Jeff has Dumbo ears. The child doesn't.
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. yes but Gannon's head is shaved bald now
so his ears would appear to protude less if he had hair.
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NV Whino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Look closer
The lobes are different
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. you are looking at a computer enhanced photo - not his real ears n/t
Edited on Mon Feb-21-05 06:58 PM by seemslikeadream
are you are going by this photo? This is enhanced, not his real ears

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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
104. How about putting hair on Gannon
instead of visualizing what the child would look like without hair?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #104
230. Look at post 227
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. There is no photo of his ears
Edited on Mon Feb-21-05 06:43 PM by seemslikeadream
original photo his ears are covered by his hair.
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NV Whino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. You may have to go back to the original thread
there are plenty of photos of Gannon/Guckert and one unretouched photo of the boy.
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. yes, and his ears are covered with hair in that one!
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. I've emailed folk who should want to know and asked the simple...
....question and provided the original DU link:

Is "Gannon," Gosch?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

It should not be difficult to get an accurate answer.

Will post any answers I receive.

Peace.


BE THE BU$H OPPOSITION;24/7
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. post the picture you're talking about n/t
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
37. Here are the pics that were talked about...
The only original photo of Gosch, taken before he disappeared:



The age-enhanced photo of what he might have looked like at an older age:



Compilation of 'Gannon' photos:



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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
85. Nevermind.
Edited on Mon Feb-21-05 11:03 PM by mzmolly
Just read that he was reunited with his family.

http://www.johnnygosch.com/johnny_story.html
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. Andy spoke with Johnny's mom, Noreen, yesterday...
Here is his post on that:

Andy_Stephenson (1000+ posts) Sun Feb-20-05 09:15 PM
Response to Original message

309. I sent Mrs Gosch an email.


Followed by a phone call. Here is her response

"Andy,

Thank you for taking the time to email me the photo link. I have already contacted my PI and we will be checking this out as much as possible.

If I have any questions, I will get in touch with you.

Regards,


Noreen "



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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:17 AM
Response to Reply #88
117. Wow!
:wow:

I'm dumbfounded at this whole situation. I'm a sceptic by nature but the resemblence in the photo's is uncanny.

once again. :wow:
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #85
90. mzmolly , I just read your link and
I didn't see anything in it about him being reunitied with his family. As far as I can see, it just says that he met with his mother for a short amount of time before going back underground.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #90
120. I think that the similarities are too much to dismiss, but why would he
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 05:47 AM by mzmolly
not spill the beans?

He's got the publics attention, now would be the time to do it. I'd be very surprised if this guy doesn't end up "suicided" and the left wing blogs blamed. Unless of course, he's still a lover of one of the powerful pedo freaks involved, and they can't part with him?

"Johnny took a chance to come and see his mother for a very short time. He wanted to give her information, in the hope she could bring it out to the public. Information about this network of pedophiles and how they operate. He is very angry about what has happened to him and the years with his family which have been taken from him. Who could blame any of these young people for being angry at the system."

Thanks for clearing up my confusion. I assumed that he was still in contact with his family from time to time. I assumed that his mother probably knew who Guckert/Gannon was.

Do we have photos of Gosch's father? His mother is here, Guckert/Gannon/???? does resemble her:



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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #120
126. Gannon appears to be a true believer in the right wing cause.
If it's true that he is this kidnapped boy, and I'm not convinced that he is, he seems to have become a willing footsoldier for the right wing.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #126
127. Read About the Stolckholm
Syndrome.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #127
303. I was thinking that as a possibility as well.
:shrug:
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #120
281. She's got the chin and eye thing going. and the nose is similar too.
Has anyone attempted to photo shop her hair out and place this next to the phote that is right next to her?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #120
297. What about JDG with hair?
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 05:29 PM by merh



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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #297
302. The eyes!
The teeth, the chin, the hair color .... totally freaky.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #302
305. The similarities are so freaky --
I can't say if it is or isn't the same person, but damn so many features seem to be so similar. :shrug:
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #90
168. Note that
his father doesn't believe his ex-wife in regard to Johnny showing up a few years ago.

People should do some research about the so-called SRA cults of the 80s and what actually became of them. After years of study, it was concluded that there was NO reliable evidence for ANY satanic ritual abuse of children in the US.
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Blue Gardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #168
291. If I recall
I did read Noreen Gosch's book, but it's been a couple of years. However, I believe she thinks her husband somehow has a connection to their son's disappearance.
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nascarblue Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #37
151. No possible way
Look at the style of clothes. "Gannon is 47 yrs old, claims he's anywhere from 38 to 42 depending on the site, but he's 47. I'm 40 and grew up in the 70's. There's no way with those clothes. No one wore black Adidas shirts and straight leg jeans in the early 70's. I started wearing straight leg pants and jeans in 1980 and was yelled at constantly that I was a punk rocker or "devo" or some lame shit like that.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #151
163. We have no concrete evidence of what age 'Gannon' is
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 09:46 AM by Spazito
at this point. As to the clothing on Johnny, the Adidas logo shown on the t-shirt was designed and put on their products in 1972 so this t-shirt design fits the timeframe. The photo is from the johnnygosch.com site and was taken in 1982, not in the 70s.

Edited to add link to site with photo:

http://www.johnnygosch.com/
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
82. I just can't figure out where you are seeing the kids ears in the only
legitimate photo of the kid though. The enhancements can't mimic an ear they don't have a record of. Wrestling and other things can also alter the shape of an ear dramatically. Wrestlers often get something called cauliflower ear and it really can change the shape. Built up scar tissue can thicken it and alter its wrinkles. I know of no way, other than plastic surgery that an attached earlobe could be change to an unattached one though. If Gannon/Guckert really was this kid though I might tend to think it would have beent o his benefit to undergo some changes before he decided to out himself on C-Span and I am beginning to think he did just that.

Another thing someone said was that the noses were different. I can vouch for the fact that a twelve year olds nose can change rather dramatically as an adult. They don't have fully formed cartilage at age twelve. I used to fit kids for glasses and one of the biggest problems with children and glasses is the fact they have no bridge and their glasses fall down all the time because of it.
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nonny Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
54. Photoshopped "bald" 2 photos
These were the 2 age-enhanced photos.
Original post 162 and 227
I would like to post them but can't figure out how.
Also, I don't have enough posts to email them to someone who can.
So, if someone wants to post them -- please email me.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #54
248. nonny do you have a free photo bucket account? Or shutterfly?
Sign up for either and then we'll be able to let you know how to post.

:hi:
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nonny Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #248
278. Just signed up for photobucket -- thank you thank you
Here goes-----------

>
>
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #278
307. Post one of gannons with yours so the comparision can be made
- that would help! Thanks
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm afraid to click on the original - it's HUGE....
Is this the smoking one that Andy participated in - the one with the fact that the des moines newspaper editors name was James Gannon?

if so.
THANKS MODS!
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. yes
don't worry, it doesn't take TOO long to load. i'm even on dial up and it takes less than a minute. you really should read through it and come to your own conclusions. whether the connections end up being valid or not, i learned a LOT that i never knew before.
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I Have read it... awesome stuff, bone chilling and awful too...
just didn't want to go through loading it up again and thought I'd take the lazy way and ask instead.

thanks. :)

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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thanks, admin, for allowing the discussion on this to continue!!
The previous thread has some very good information and I am glad it can go on!!
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. this was one of the last links left on the original thread
by flyarm: http://www.apfn.org/apfn/ring.htm

i read through it and it has a lot of information. while reading it, i started to feel really eerie - almost like it was put there on purpose. it just seemed to play into our hands, the people who were following this thread. either that or it's just a coincidence that it somewhat connects some of the things that have been said in the original thread.

please read through that link and say what you think.....
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
25. Reference to the McMartin case in that link:
THE JUDICIARY

During the last 20 years, Ted Gunderson (this writer) has been
contacted by hundreds of victims claiming corruption in the judiciary at all levels of our government. I have noticed a tendency by Criminal courts, Family courts, Civil courts, and Juvenile Dependency courts throughout the United States to base their findings on disbelief of testimony of satanic abuse, MK-Ultra Mind Control, and FBI, CIA, and government corruption. This writer has more than 2000 pages of
documentation alone on the CIA Mind Control MK-Ultra Program.

Dangerous child abusers, such as was the case in the famous McMartin Preschool Manhattan Beach California trial, are regularly found innocent. (See Ted L. Gunderson's extensive Scientific Tunnel Report on the McMartin case and/or "The Dark Tunnels of McMartin", by Ronald Summit, M.D. in the "The Journal of Psychohistory", Volume 21 (4), Spring, 1994, pp. 397-416; see references below).

Children are regularly returned to parents involved in satanic abuse. Children are regularly removed from protective parents who allege satanic abuse based on the courts viewing these parents as delusional.

===
Here is a link to that case, one of many if you dogpile/google.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_mcmar.htm

The main evidence of abuse was based on what the children testified were memories of repeated, sadistic, ritual molestation. Years later, child psychologists realized that such memories can be easily implanted in children's minds by the interview techniques which were used at the time. Since psychologists and police investigators have changed their methods of interrogating young children, no more MVMO cases have surfaced in the U.S. and Canada. The children's testimony was supported by medical tests, which were believed at the time to be accurate. Years later, they were found to be useless.

The hoax adversely affected the lives of hundreds of children, who are now young adults. It has become the most famous MVMO case of its type. Many feminists and others still believe that the children were subjected to horrendous abuse at McMartin.

===
what to believe. omg.
I saw the James Woods movie of this case and it Definitely made you believe that there was No child abuse involved.
what to believe.

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nascarblue Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #25
154. I lived in the same county as Mcmartin...
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 09:59 AM by nascarblue
It was a severe case of widespread paranoia. The McMartins and Ray Buckey never did a friggin thing. Never. They were lynch mobbed. It was a sad era, but then again it was the Reagan days.

As far as the Franklin/Nebraska/Bush 41/King case, have you all seen the video at http://www.thelawparty.com/FranklinCover-up.htm
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
255. I lived in Long Beach CA during that trial. It was total BS
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #25
265. McMartin case was a freakin witch hunt that destroyed way too
many -- not just those involved in the case - but others throughout the country when everyone was suspect and many were wrongly accused of sexual abuse.
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bear425 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
79. Fly,
I got the same eerie feeling when I clicked on it! When you click on the properties, you get: Satanic Cult Sex Drug Ring It's almost as if they titled it with words someone would enter into Google in order for it to come up quickly. Anyway, its interesting.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #79
110. i have had that link for quite some time
gives me the creeps too..but it sure has lots of info in it..
i can't even remember where i got it from but i have had it for some time..i think i got it from someone last yr from message boards..aol..but i cant remember.it was in my files..

and yes it gives me the creeps too!

fly
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
8. Yes, thank you admin. I think there's more to learn about all of this.
Edited on Mon Feb-21-05 06:40 PM by LibInTexas
It's amazing what DU can glean from internet searches and such.

I was very weirded out this morning when someone found out Hunter Thompson was linked to the Franklin Coverup in DeCamp's book -- in 1992.

I'm in the process of ordering DeCamp's book, it's something I should have read a long time ago--

--Since I lived in Nebraska once and knew 3 people who went to prison as a result of either the scandal at the S&L or in one case a pedophile conviction that came from revelations due to the investigation.



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soulcore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. i'm reposting the H.S. Thompson angle cuz' i find it so "timely"
Thompson, whose legal representation is provided by the same politically connected law firm that successfully shielded John and Patsy Ramsey from prosecution, has been accused by the child witnesses in the case dubbed the 'Franklin Cover-Up.' Anger was suspected by police investigators, but was shielded from prosecution by sex researcher Alfred Kinsey, a devoted follower of Aleister Crowley. Kinsey died shortly after he and Anger visited Crowley's Thelema Abbey in Sicily.

from http://davesweb.cnchost.com/wtc13.html
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. haha!
that was the post where i really started to get creeped out. it just seems a little 'timely', doesn't it?
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
11. I'm don't buy into the Gannon connection...
BUT I SUPPORT ANYTHING that gets people to take a look at the Franklin Affair.

Keep going, and I'll keep reading.
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sickinohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
13. flyarm posted an article on this discussion about a 72-
year-old man by the last name of Weiss that "died a violent death" in Dec. (?2003). Wasn't the last name of "Weis" the people that "Bush" was "toasting" in that video where he appears to perhaps have had a few too many "to drink" not long ago? Anyone seen that video? It was on posted somewhere on the net, but I don't have it. Anyway, I found that to be a coincidence also.
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soulcore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. * toasted well after he went cold turkey
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/bush/bush.html

i've seen this vid .. he's WASTED. lol.
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sickinohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Thanks - that's the one I was talking about. So,
is there a connection to the Weiss name?? Also, until a couple of months ago, we had a TV Anchorwoman with the last name of Weiss in Ohio that was from TX. She went back to her Tx home. Same family? Dunno. Just sayin.
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Weiss is a fairly common name. n/t
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
34. Gus Weiss "wired into the intelligence community...mystical secrets"
Links to stories about his death on my blog here: http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004/08/suicide-d...

Nashville native Gus Weiss, adviser to 4 presidents, dies

Gus Weiss, a Nashville native who advised four presidents, served on the National Security Council for 16 years and won numerous awards for his foreign policy and intelligence-gathering skills, has died. He was 72.

Mr. Weiss died Tuesday in Washington, D.C. The circumstances surrounding his death could not be confirmed last night.

Friends of Mr. Weiss expressed shock at his death....

"He was wired into the intelligence community, and there were a lot of mystical secrets we weren't privy to," said Harris Gilbert, a Nashville attorney who had been friends with Mr. Weiss since childhood. "He was very interested in diplomatic strategy and was very, very opposed to the Iraq war. It was the first military action he ever opposed, but he believed we shouldn't go to war in the Middle East without knowing what we were getting into."

Gus W. Weiss, 72; White House Adviser

Gus W. Weiss, 72, a former White House policy adviser on technology, intelligence and economic affairs, died Nov. 25 of a fall from the Watergate East residential building in the District. The DC medical examiner ruled his death a suicide.

A spokesman for the D.C. police said that officers found his body at a service entrance to the apartment cooperative. Dr. Weiss lived in the building....

Much of his government work centered on national security, intelligence organizations and concerns over technology transfers to communist countries. As an adviser to the Central Intelligence Agency, he served on the Pentagon's Defense Science Board and the Signals Intelligence Committee of the U.S. Intelligence Board.

During the Carter administration, Dr. Weiss was assistant for space policy to the secretary of defense.
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sickinohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #34
273. Another "suicide" - hmmmm
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Bethany Rockafella Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
15. Thank you Mods!
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
27. Thanks Faye.
vey much!
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. i would have waited so you could post it.....
Edited on Mon Feb-21-05 07:49 PM by Faye
but i wanted to make sure it got started back up quick so it doesn't fade. :hi:

you're welcome!
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. Welcome back to the fray, Andy.
Has anybody found out anything about where the people convicted in the Franklin scandal are today?

King was supposedly released and seeking a job with the GOP. Anybody find anything on that? Is he working for the GOP now?

I know of 2 that were released (for the embezzlement aspect) but cannot find anything about the others (like Peter Citron from WOWT-TV and the Omaha World Herald who was convicted of pedophilia.)
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Omaha World Herald owns ES&S
Edited on Mon Feb-21-05 08:27 PM by Andy_Stephenson
voting systems. Or has a huge stake in it. I need to reread that real quick...and will post when I have.
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Hmmm interesting, also remember Gunderson implicated
Edited on Mon Feb-21-05 08:42 PM by LibInTexas
Harold Anderson, then publisher of the World Herald:

Eighty children initially came forward as a result of newspaper publicity of the raid and subsequent stories in the local news. These children identified some of the most prominent citizens in the Omaha area as involved, including then Omaha Chief of Police, Bob Wadman; former Omaha World Herald newspaper publisher, Harold Andersen; Eugene Mahoney, former Omaha vice squad officer and later head of the Nebraska Forestry Service (he has a park named after him); former Omaha World Herald entertainment columnist, Peter Citron; Alan Baer, Knights of Ak-Sar-Ben, Financier; and Omaha County Judge Theodore Carlson. The children who came forward reported, among other things, satanic ceremonies of human and animal sacrifice.

from-
http://www.johnnygosch.com/gunderson_report.html
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. The Herald and ES&S
ES&S is a subsidiary of McCarthy Group Inc., which is jointly held by the holding firm and the Omaha World-Herald Co., which publishes the states largest newspaper. The voting machine company makes sophisticated optical scan and touch-screen vote-counting devices that many states have begun buying in recent years.

from-
http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/000895.php
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
211. Online directories show a Peter L. Citron in Omaha
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 01:11 PM by starroute
If you Google for "peter citron" + Omaha, his name and phone number come up. Another online directory gives his age as 65, which suggests it probably is the same person.
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #211
267. It has to be him.
I don't recall how many years he was sentenced to, but with good time, he's probably out by now.

The age is right, he was about 10 years older than me when I first met him in the late '60's.

He is not registered as a High Risk/Level 3 sex offender (which is the only thing you can search for) with the Nebraska State Patrol, which oversees such registrations.

Over and above that phone # does not reverse to his name, it looks like he's dropped off the radar. Perhaps understandably so.

Also, trying to find anything on Larry King has been like looking for a needle in a haystack. Especially with the CNN talk show host having the same name. It would sure be interesting to see if he got that job with the GOP he is reported to be looking for, after he got out.
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fob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #27
113. Andy, I think I'm in shock right now. This stuff is phenomonal.
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 02:14 AM by fob
Here's my 2 cents worth...

In the E&P interview this is the part that jumped out at me;


http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_di ...

COOPER: But when you would go into the White House to get a pass for a briefing, you would use the name James Guckert.

GANNON: Yes, because that's the name on my driver's license.

COOPER: And then -- but then you would switch to Jeff Gannon to ask questions?

GANNON: Because that is the name that I do my reporting under. It's not uncommon for journalists, authors, actors, to have pseudonyms.

end snip

Isn't that a weird way to say, "well yeah that's my name". It really blared out at me like he was talking about a third person. That was BEFORE I even came across your threads. I talked the whole thing through to the missus and the scary part was hearing the story and her reaction, which was NOT surprise because it all fit so well.

It's all so horrifying. If this JDG/JDG/JDG connection is true, then Mr. Gannon could end up being the savior of us all were he to come clean and take the whole sordid mess out. Irony isn't a big enough word in this case.


Good night and thanks.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
29. oh my
It does get messy doesn't it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Is this slop shop going to be shut down?
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. huh?
Edited on Mon Feb-21-05 08:03 PM by Faye
what do you mean? that is the thread i referred to begin with. this is a continuation of that thread with permission from the moderator.

or do you mean slop shop as in, all of the stories' "connections" being talked about?
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Oh yes.. the STORY
not the threads!

The 'slop shop' as in the WOOSHITERIA MANIAC EXPRESS TO HELL!

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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. LOL
oh ok. seriously, i hope we figure out the truth in all this. i am spending way too much time refreshing these damn threads.....it's actually stressing me out :wtf:
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. I'm just getting started on the first thread
my link actually points to post #53 on that thread.

I'm thinking we need to get Nancy Reagan on the stand.
Oops! Alzheimer's?

It's really too disgusting to think about. But these perverts are writing our LAWS for criminy's sake.

I'm still expecting Utopia. Any minute now.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
33. What are the chances the NYT writes an article about THIS thread? Zero
I bet.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Depends. If someone does the homework and determines that Gosch...
....is 'Gannon,' every frigging paper in the world will be writing the story for a very long time.

We simply need an answer to the question: "Is 'Gannon,' Gosch?"

Peace.


TBO;24/7
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zann725 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #38
83. But Gannon's not anywhere near the right age, right?
n/t
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #83
111. If you believe he is 47 No
If you believe he is between the ages of 36-37 then he is exactly the right age. I do not think he is 47. He doesn't have a single wrinkle. He is lying about this age.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #111
139. Roger that! And, an artist friend who has looked at his photos...
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 08:36 AM by understandinglife
....give a big 'no way' to the 47.

Peace.


TBO;24/7
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
40. Re original thread post #96
Edited on Mon Feb-21-05 08:31 PM by votesomemore
Kansas Wyatt (245 posts) Sat Feb-19-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #71

96. Didn't Shrub rant and rave about the global sex trade awhile back?

If I recall, he was blaming a lot of it on Castro in Cuba and he was making a mission to abolish it around the World. Or was this just a ploy to get out ahead of it, and smear others with it before it led back to him? Common Shrub tactic.


YES! Last year (or year before), out the blue, during the SOTU gwb mentioned SEX TRADE. Everyone was going :wtf:
We did not know (did we) that SEX TRADE was on the agenda or a possible threat to our freedoms. har har
(Not unless you visited Bosnia, et al).

So what is gwb doing today? Is he tracking down the illicit SEX TRADE? Or trying to pass anti-marriage laws?

HMMMMM??



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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. He was throwing a fundie group a bone.
Sorry, been too long ago, I don't have a link, but I remember being startled by an article wherein some hoity-toity fundie had expressed satisfaction about bush mentioning the sex trade.

Typical bush M.O. Give him thousands and thousands of dollars and he'll make a casual mention in a speech, causing everyone to say "WTF?"

I honestly don't think it's related to the subject of this thread.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #47
58. Really?
Edited on Mon Feb-21-05 09:27 PM by votesomemore
I honestly don't think it's related to the subject of this thread.

Are these two threads implying that he (and his ilk) are involved (Owners/Operators/Participants) in THE sex trade of the world?
He mentions it in a speech (for whatever reason), and that's not related to this thread?

Could have fooled me. Maybe I don't understand the intent.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
72. I remember thinking that was weird too
Edited on Mon Feb-21-05 10:08 PM by Blue_Roses
also Pickles wanting to spend more time helping boys. She thinks boys don't get near enough attention these days :wtf:
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #72
112. She's Recruiting Ped Couples Work In Teams
The woman is often used as the conduit for recruitment. Many times the woman is not involved in the direct abuse but to keep the relationship protected she will work behind the scenes for her ped partner.

I have an incredibly beautiful female toddler and I can't tell you how many very strange and weird women have tried to befriend me and I know it is because of my little girl.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
41. Dozens Of Local Foster Children Considered Missing
Local Agencies Say They're Actively Looking For Kids
We've seen stories of missing foster children and states losing children in their care in headlines for months.

FeedRoom

Kids Lost In The System

In Florida, for example, the system has been under heavy criticism since admitting it lost a 5-year-old who caseworkers had not checked on for more than a year.

So how does Ohio stack up? And why are so many children missing from Ohio's foster care system?

The following is a transcript of Tylar Bacome's special report, shown exactly the way it appeared on NewsChannel 4 at 11 p.m. on April 24, 2003.

Tylar Bacome: Pictures are all that Annette Ison has of her missing 16-year-old daughter. The struggling mother of four is usually calm when talking about young Trina Ison (pictured, below, left) -- usually.

http://www.nbc4i.com/target4/2153732/detail.html
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #41
56. now i can't remember all the details but we need to look into this
reinquists daughter was in charge of this dept i believe here in fla..and when she got fired they gave her 5 months to clear out her office..i remember being furious about that , evidently money was missing or mis appropriated and they gave her 5 month to vacate her office...i thought at the time and i wrote a letter to the editor at the time..who gets 5 months to shred their records when getting fired for a real lousey job..missing kids and missing money..and they didnt put locks on the doors and do an audit??
and i remember they said the paper work was in such a disarray that some kids would never be found.

also i know jeff fisher discussed bay point school in so e fla , troubled kids..boys i believe and he said there was abuse and a connection with the vote hacking.,.i am too tired tonight to look it all up..but these may be some clues to help people do research!

ill search my files tommorrow..

fly
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. Bay Point School and Mel Semler (Straight)
Edited on Mon Feb-21-05 09:47 PM by seemslikeadream
HOT!! Florida U.S. House Rep. says he has evidence of hacked voting.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


http://thestraights.com/pickets/fl-holo-011704/fl-holo -...

David Lopez Blass released from Straight-descendent Growing Together, Oct 29 Heat from John Kerry and Florida Democrat candiate Jeff Fisher helped secure the release of David Blass. link aA new site shed's light on Growing Together. link There is a petition out to grant full Constitutional rights to David Blass and to all clients at Growing Together. petition
http://thestraights.com/index.htm

It is worth the pain giving a glance to its new friend, Sembler ambassador. His Excellency Melvin Floyd Sembler, beyond to being "extraordinary and plenipotentiary Ambassador in Italy", is also a "distinguished citizen" of the Scout, has had a medal from the National Conference of the Christians and of the Hebrew, it has had the Humanitarian Prize of the center Hebrew Golda Meir/Kent, but above all he is ex-president of the International Council of the Centers Trades them.

In fact, Sembler is not sure a diplomats of profession. For the precision, he is a former-vendor of feminine underwear, become one of the main constructors of centers trades them of the United States.
http://thestraights.com/articles/sembler-italian-kelebe ...


They run very close to really performing psychic murder. Marge Robertson, executive director of the Cincinnati Chapter of the ACLU, speaking of Straight, Inc., from Cincinnati Post

http://thestraights.com/articles/melsembler-bio.htm

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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. The McMartin daycare/abuse scandal...
from one of your links, fly. Another story that makes my flesh creep.

If anyone if familiar with this case or saw the movie (James Woods is in it) WHAT IF that idiotic analyst (who Apparently cajoled the kids into making some outlandish claims like sacrificing ponies, etc.) the case was dropped for this reason. WHAT IF she was a deliberate PLANT to do Just This (she was also involved with and living with a local Media guy that covered the story).

The movie makes the McMartins look like the victims, but O M G what IF it really was true and we were all hookwinked in both directions. What if something evil Really was going on but the media and the PtB did what was necessary to cool it down and make it sound so bizarre and unbelievable..

I feel sick

===
THE JUDICIARY
During the last 20 years, Ted Gunderson (this writer) has been
contacted by hundreds of victims claiming corruption in the judiciary at all levels of our government. I have noticed a tendency by Criminal courts, Family courts, Civil courts, and Juvenile Dependency courts throughout the United States to base their findings on disbelief of testimony of satanic abuse, MK-Ultra Mind Control, and FBI, CIA, and government corruption. This writer has more than 2000 pages of
documentation alone on the CIA Mind Control MK-Ultra Program.
Dangerous child abusers, such as was the case in the famous McMartin Preschool Manhattan Beach California trial, are regularly found innocent. (See Ted L. Gunderson's extensive Scientific Tunnel Report on the McMartin case and/or "The Dark Tunnels of McMartin", by Ronald Summit, M.D. in the "The Journal of Psychohistory", Volume 21 (4), Spring, 1994, pp. 397-416; see references below).
Children are regularly returned to parents involved in satanic abuse. Children are regularly removed from protective parents who allege satanic abuse based on the courts viewing these parents as delusional.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #56
130. here ya go:
Inquiry explores role of politics in audit delay
Whistleblowers raise suspicion that the delay of a federal audit of the state plan was tied to Gov. Bush's re-election campaign.
By ALISA ULFERTS and MARY JACOBY
St. Petersburg Times
published November 13, 2002


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TALLAHASSEE -- A congressional committee wants to know whether politics are behind the delay of a federal audit of the state employees' pension fund.

Gov. Jeb Bush's administration asked for a delay because of recent staff changes, a spokeswoman said Tuesday, not to avoid damaging his re-election effort.

But Iowa Sen. Charles Grassley, the top Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, isn't so sure.

He has asked for an investigation into whether Health and Human Services inspector general Janet Rehnquist delayed the audit to avoid possible embarrassment to Bush, who was in a spirited re-election fight.

Grassley said Tuesday the audit delay is just one part of a federal inquiry into whether Rehnquist, daughter of U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice William Rehnquist, has improperly infused politics into her administrative duties.

Bush spokeswoman Elizabeth Hirst said the governor's staff requested the delay because the director of the state agency that oversees pension funds was about to retire.

"It was appropriate that we had a delay," Hirst said.

Grassley asked the General Accounting Office to look into Rehnquist's operation in October after learning that she made 19 senior-level staff changes at HHS. Grassley called that number "exceptionally high."

In talking with the whistleblowers from HHS, Grassley learned of suspicions that Rehnquist had delayed the Florida audit to avoid the possibility of damaging Bush's re-election campaign.

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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #130
180. thanks for finding that..but there is more to it...
this i believe was the beginning..after the audit was done..they found a holy mess...many kids were missing...and they found documents in dumpters and trashed..rehnqist was subsequently fired or asked to leave,..but they gave her 5 months to leave..
money was missing..i dont remember all the details...but i know at the time i was furious, and it was hard to get info on it..i tried at the time, and thats why i wrote letters to the editor..i wanted them to cover the story...and they weren't it was like a huge coverup...but being a mom..i could not stop thinking of the children..where were they , why was no one up in arms about it..why was the media white washing this...thats what kept going through my mind..where was the outrage for these children..and if they didnt know where many of the kids were , why were they not turning over the desks screaming to find them.
and who gets fired and gets to stay 5 months when they have been completely incompetant, unless its for a coverup??

look into what jeff fisher said about children in so fla school for troubled kids..and who was on the board of the school...

http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com/Campaign2006/index...

i dont know how credible this guy is...but its worth relooking at.

fly
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
42. Good job, Faye & thank you, Mods. n/t
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
43. OK!!
I have been reading the original since 3:00 PM today. I am now at post 179, although I had started at the bottom and worked my way up until I realized that shit was unfolding before my very eyes, so I started from the beginning. I watched the documentary on Franklin/ Larry King scandal. I've checked out almost every link posted. Blew my mind. I have sent it to everyone I know with the original threads (sept 25 and Feb 19)I cannot drag myself away from the computer.

I cannot begin to express my gratitude for this forum. I'm positively spellbound, my hair is on fire. I'm beside myself with shock, awe, sadness, and the highest of anxiety. Everyday you think you've seen it all with politicians. And every day you think it's the last straw, the one that will break the camels back, but this??? I'm speechless!

Please don't kill the thread, Moderator. This is historical.
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. i'm in the same boat
i can't pull myself away from these threads today. i need to go the eff to bed soon and its' gonna be hard :nopity:
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. This thread has taken us into some very dark places
Edited on Mon Feb-21-05 09:01 PM by bklyncowgirl
Frankly I don't know what to think. The sheer horror of this sex ring and the suspicious deaths associated with it is incredible. I find it hard to believe that people could be capable of such evil but of course they are.

This was clearly a massive scandal and if half of it is true, and I believe the part about underage hookers being used to set up politicans for blackmail was true, this could destroy many peoples lives. I find the parts about Satanic rituals involving high level politicians considerably less credible.

One thing that bothers me. Assuming that Guckert was indeed Johnny Ghosh, why the hell would anyone in the administration let him anywhere near the president much less recruit him as a faux reporter?

Personally I've been hoping that someone would find a picture of JimmyJeff sitting on Bush's lap like Donna Rice and Gary Hart on the Monkey Business. The idea that this guy was somehow tied into a decades old crime strains credibility--but it is fascinating.

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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #48
55. Simple answer:
One thing that bothers me. Assuming that Guckert was indeed Johnny Ghosh (note: it's spelled "Gosch"), why the hell would anyone in the administration let him anywhere near the president much less recruit him as a faux reporter?


If 'Gannon' is Gosch, then what we automatically know is that Gosch is one very successful 'survivor.'

And, much of his ability to survive is likely due to his ability to both gather compromising information on very powerful people and make it clear to those very powerful people that if anything happens to him, multiple sources will deliver the hard facts to the public, via multiple modalities.

I think 'Gannon' has shown us how good he is by baiting folk to pump him to #1 Ranking on the DU scum-bag chart and his other stunts starting with the gee-georgie-boy-can-you-keep-a-straight-face-while-i-ask-this-dumb-ass-question on 26 Jan 2005 -- in other words, he knew that he was about to be 'suicided' (or whatever form of disappearing act), and began showing those who would 'do him' that he really meant that he has all the tools to expose them if they pop him.

Just speculation folks; but, hey, the guy is still alive -- think about it.

Peace.


"DO YOU ENJOY BEING A CITIZEN OF THE ROGUE SUPER_POWER?"
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #48
64. please look up bohemian grove
alex jones infiltrated the elites bohemian grove in n calif..here is a link..please research it, also look into the illuminati, trilateral commission , cfr and bildebergs

then look up dominionism

and

http://theocracywatch.org /

fly


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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. opps forgot the link for bohemian grove here it is
Edited on Mon Feb-21-05 09:45 PM by flyarm
http://www.prisonplanet.com/archive_bohemian_grove.html

http://www.infowars.com/bg1.html
Alex Jones Presents Infowars.com -- Dark Secrets: Inside Bohemian ... - National Radio Broadcaster and Documentary Filmmaker Alex Jones Tells the Story of His Infiltration into the Ultra-Secret, Elite Bohemian Grove Where the ...


http://www.fair.org/extra/best-of-extra/bohemian-grove....

Inside Bohemian Grove: The Story People Magazine Won't Let You ... - ... November/December 1991. Inside Bohemian Grove: ... Mathison entered the grounds three times July 1991, aided by activists from the Bohemian Grove Action Network. ...



http://www.mt.net/~watcher/bohemiangrove.html

Secret Societies, Bohemian Club, Bohemian Grove Herbert Hoover and ... - Secret Societies, Bohemian Club, Bohemian Grove, Herbert Hoover, San Francisco Bohemian Grove, illuminati, Moloch Pagan Cult, human sacrifice, masons, secret ...


fly
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #48
67. Did anyone else find themselves checking all their doors last night
and watching all the cars today to make sure they weren't going to get "wrecked?"
I know that's a bit paranoid of me, but after reading all we've been discussing since Saturday night, I'm about of a mind to start taking my big puppy everywhere I go (120 pounds of solid muscle and wouldn't allow a soul to harm me or mine).
This is simply mind-boggling.
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. dude
i am having a fucking panic attack right now! this shit has seriously disturbed the hell out of me.
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. Yeah. Especially after I heard about Thompson.
I know in my intellectual side, there is probably absolutely no connection.

But it creeped my out all the same.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. Ah but there is a connection
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Yes, sir. I know. And that's what creeped me out.
Edited on Mon Feb-21-05 10:13 PM by LibInTexas
DeCamp's '92 book.

I've just ordered it.

But, I keep thinking (hoping), well it could have been a coincidence.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #73
94. dunno
I was reading through one of these threads last night and came across Thompson's name. I was wondering who he was and finally (lazy researcher sometimes) decided I'd find out.

But then I got interrupted, had to log out of computer, lost the bloody thread. When I got back on --- 15 minutes max, there on the DU front page was the news of his suicide. First thing I wondered was whether there COULD be a connection and he was suicided just in case (maybe they have figured out that y'all rock as researchers and sent someone out for him immediately upon seeing us start finding these old stories).

Then again, maybe not. But I'd damn sure be careful - especially if I had a position of some notoriety, 's all I'm sayin'.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #67
95. ahhhh clark!!
i have had some of these files hidden on my computer for years!! and copies in my safety deposit box..and i have friends keeping it for me as well all over the country!!lol..paranoid..who me???


i have this stuff hidden everywhere!!

hiiiii clark!!
:scared: :hi: :loveya: :hug:

fly
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #67
136. YES! and the back seat of my car
and around the corner of the house and I was caustiously entering any room that was dark. :scared: This creeps me out. There's a lot of dead people who were involved in this story. They obviously aren't concerned about murdering too many people.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #136
234. look out..........
boo!!

the boogy man will get you!!!

lol...but honestly i have been freaked for 2 yrs having alot of this stuff in my files!!

fly B-) :smoke:

freaks ya out! :freak:


but dont worry we will have your back!! :hug:
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
49. Could someone sum this thread up for me? Thanks n/t
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Hokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Beat me to it
Ha Ha :)
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #49
57. LOL!
I'll pay money for that. MY best friend will be calling me any minute to ask for the summary b/c he's gonna be too tired to read the thirty links I've sent him thus far. My advice? Watch this video first, then read the original thread. Yes all four hundred or so posts.

http://www.thelawparty.org/featureddocumentary.htm
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #57
69. is there any way to download that?
It started to play and now won't even start.
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Hokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
50. Could someone summarize these threads?
I am lost. What is all of this about?
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Summerize? Man...I think the best thing is to start at the origional
now closed thread, follow as many links as you can. It takes a lot of time I know, but at the end you'll start to see connections.

And if you are like me, I got really freaked out this morning and just had to leave it and ride my bike down to the lake to clear my head.

We've had our Eyes Wide Shut.


Also, I've just ordered John DeCamp's The Franklin Cover-Up: Child Abuse, Satanism, and Murder in Nebraska.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. Here's the documentary link on the Franklin/King scandal
http://www.thelawparty.org/featureddocumentary.htm

it's about an hour and the quality is poor, but it is necessary if you want to understand this whole mess.
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Thanks for posting again, I started to watch it yesterday
but didn't have enough time, and alas, I'm not going to tonight either.

It really is poor quality, but you can understand the audio, and that's what counts.

Perhaps I'll get to it tomorrow.
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #50
60. link to original thread
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
52. Glad to see this thread continued...Thanks mods!
I am beyond disgusted and dismayed and not to mention scared by how all of this ties in together and to where it leads... :scared:

Who will save us from these evil bastards?! John Kerry, Michael Moore, someone! Please Help!!! :scared:
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
65. Glad you got the thread over here
Something happened when I saw the photo of Johnny Gosch (unretouched). Not able to say whether he's the same person. But I connected with that kid. Damn. (Maybe my mommy genes.......I have 5 kids).

Although I share the belief that y'all need to take care with drawing conclusions and going too wild with the theories, the number of coincidences are astounding. Johnny and James and Jeff all have the same first, last and middle initials. Johnny worked for a newspaper whose editor was named Gannon. The similarity in facial characteristics...Yikes!

Should keep watch on who else gets suicided over the next few months or so. I'm feeling like y'all are getting close to uncovering something. The closer you get the more danger there is for those who have any history connected to all this (except those who they absolutely own). That includes Jimmy/Jeff.
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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. I am an artist as well, and the ears are as individual as fingerprints.
Edited on Mon Feb-21-05 10:09 PM by DearAbby
But was this picture used to compile the computer age enhancement then they had no reference for the ears. We have to have a picture that has Johnny's ears to compare them.

I have been following the other thread, Thanks Mods for allowing this to continue.






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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #71
80. Eye color?



Does anyone have the description of Gosch - eye color, etc.?
Gannon's websites provide his eye color, along with other physical attributes. Just wondering if any of the sites on gosch provide his eye color.

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seventythree Donating Member (904 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #65
87. John's mom is alive, is she not?
I read an interview with her, as I imagine everyone here did, that was from what? 2001? Her child was like 27 when he visited her and that was in the late 90's, if memory serves correctly -- aren't we off in the ages of the two? The supposed fact that the Des Moines register guy was Jeff Gannon is very bizarre but I have to think if there is anything at all to this line of thinking, someone would be talking to her.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #87
93. Andy called
it's on the parent thread...........she didn't dismiss him out of hand. He's sending what he's got.
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seventythree Donating Member (904 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #93
233. thanks, caught that catching up on the other thread
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Griffy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
70. hows Capitol City Escorts connected to Real Estate?!! seems odd!
While searching for Capitol City Escorts here in DC.. (I'm a Realtor in DC area.. and yes I searched for Gannon/Guckert holdings.. none in Greater DC).. I found they are advertising for both escorting AND Real Estate appraisal services. Odd to say the least. I been trying to think of why they might have both services.. and all I got so far is the real estate is used somehow in transferring money, cause theres always a money link! There are courses and accreditation processes required for appraisers...

http://www.switchboard.com/Real_Estate_Appraisers/Washi...

-notice the phone number is the same as the 1 in the previous thread for Capitol City Escorts
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FULL_METAL_HAT Donating Member (673 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #70
84. Supposedly Escort Services often have Real Estate biz for billing cover
You know, someone pays for a "in-depth market assesment" with the Real Estate company coming up on the credit card receipt.

The key would be finding receipts from that Real Estate company...
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #70
296. Just thinking here...When I was a wild and crazye teenager we often used
houses we knew were vacant for drinking parties. some of the homes we managed to get ourselves into were very nice. Besides the money laundering angle and THAT assuredly happens OFTEN in Real Estate despite the fact they have rules about escrow money not being touched.
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DemocracyInaction Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
75. What I know about Johnny Gosch (sp?)-from HIS PARENTS
Glad I started to read the original thread. I didn't know that this had now gone into the question of whether he was the paperboy kidnapped in Iowa. I lived in Iowa during that time. His parents were brought in by my children's school district to address parents. I talked about this here at DU awhile back and was sneered off the board like I made it all up. Now...do you want to listen??

They were there to tell parents about what they found out about all this child sex trade, etc. that none of us had even imagined was going on in this country (scared shit out of everyone). They told us about the Man/Boy Love group and how people who take your kids pictures at schools were where they got kids pictures (and info on where to find them)to put into a magazine from which these fucking perverts shopped. If they wanted a kid, the kid was kidnapped and some of the kidnappers who were serving prison time laughed about how if they want your kid you can do absolutely nothing to stop them. BUT the big news involved our government and the Mafia.

The parents were working with the FBI, of course. At one point they were literally introduced to a Mafia guy who wanted to assure them that the Mafia was not into this racket BUT that they knew (and the FBI) of where this shit went down. For some reason the FBI wanted to protect the good name of the Mafia (go figure). They flew the parents (blindfolded) to a location and took them into a warehouse. They were able to watch an auction of kids paraded across the stage and sold. The FBI told them most of the kids are sold to people outside the country and wisked away quickly. The parents were trying to get out the message that this is such bullshit when our government agencies know this is going on and did NOTHING about it.

I will never forget that speech of theirs---and never knew it would show up this many years later. So, I hope this helps in that our government has permitted this shit to go on because obviously some very big people don't want this investigated. That is why alarm bells went off when Bush would talk about the child sex trade in this country. They know where to look if they really want to stop it. And, of course, all the rumors that had been around for years about Papa Bush and his 'love' for little boys. I want to stress that the parents were just relentless in their pursuit besides talking to newspapers, etc. and the FBI felt a lot of pressure. I can remember sitting there in outrage that the FBI would hook them up with people who could take them to a slave auction but couldn't seem to arrest and put these people away. Soooo, you go figure out why the law just stood there and did nothing when they knew of this. The parents were apparently taken there to search for their son. If there are any people out there from Iowa who had the parents come to their school and give the presentation, you know what I'm saying is exactly what they told us.
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DemocracyInaction Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. bump
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Sparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #75
81. Speaking of auction of kids, I copied this from one of the links above:
>>While investigating the Gosch case, Whalen told Noreen Gosch of a slave auction in Houston, Texas. He asked her "Would you go $50,000 to buy your son back, if he goes across the auction block?" Noreen Gosch borrowed the funds. Unfortunately, Whalen informed Noreen Gosch that Johnny was not at the Texas auction. Whalen was discovered as helping Noreen Gosch and was forbidden from
attending other auctions.<<

Yikes!
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #75
108. thank you for reporting this to us..this is also why the media ...
is silent...i also believe the media people get hooked into this to silence them..or it used to be how it was done..now they are just plain owned by the reich wing nazi criminals!

thanks again for related your info!!

fly
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
77. There have been pedophile scandals in other countries too
Edited on Mon Feb-21-05 10:19 PM by starroute
I frankly don't know what to make of all this. Half the time I think it's a pure witch-hunt (especially when it gets into the Satanic abuse stuff) and the other half of the time I'm convinced there are monsters running our world and this is one of the few visible keys to their true nature. Or perhaps the real situation is something very different from either of these . . .

Among other things, there's something that just doesn't pass the smell test about a lot of these stories. They seem to have more to do with the extreme right-wing agenda -- the stuff that's all about Bavarian Illuminati and decadence and nameless horrors -- than with anything even remotely liberal or progressive. As with Moon's Washington Times running the Franklin scandal above the fold, they often seem designed to convince people that there are dark Satanic forces operating everything behind the scenes and to destroy all faith in liberal democracy as a result.

Even beyond that, there's an element of Shock and Awe built into these kinds of stories that I can tell has already plunged many of you on this thread into some very unsettled emotional states. The use of aberrant sexuality is a well-established factor in many mind control techniques -- Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo being two well-known examples. Once your reality has been destabilized in that way, you become easy prey for outside manipulation.

So by all means let's keep looking at these things, but please also reserve judgment and be suspicious of *everything* -- including your own personal emotional reactions. There's no other safe way to approach it.

That said, here are a few links I've saved over the last few years regarding related cases outside the US:

There was the Marc Dutroux affair in Belgium a while back:
http://konformist.com/2001/pedophocracy1.htm

There was the more recent scandal in Portugal:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/ex_minister_held_in_child_s...

There was something involving Blair's cabinet in Britain:
http://www.counterpunch.org/james01292003.html
http://www.propagandamatrix.com/blair_protection.html

And here's a page of links to all of those and more:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/archive_elite_sex_ring.html
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phusion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
86. ATTN: in_cog_ni_to et. al RE: birthmark!
Hmmm...this is too weird. I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet...

But, as mentioned per this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

John David Gosch had a large birthmark on his chest. Assuming that he had it removed, there could be a scar or blemish in its place.

Look at this photo of Gannon. It was the only high-res, closeup photo I could find of his chest:


You see that purplish blemish to the LEFT of his dogtags???

????????????
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #86
141. I DO see it.
That could be a very light birthmark or a scar from having one removed. I wish we could see that enlarged. Thanks for the post! :hi:
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thecrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #86
217. Check out this photo
at: http://www.male4malescorts.com/reviews/bulldogdc.html

There is a big mole or something on the left side of his chest, near the collarbone. I'm sending you to the site so it cannot be said I edited the photo. Warning: explicit text on this page. Do not go there if you are offended. The photo itself is not pornographic.

I've been reading this thread and I am totally freaked by some of the information here.
I, too am an artist/sculptor and from a portrait perspective I do see A LOT of similarities in the photos, especially in the lips, eyes, eyebrows and chin.

I wonder what Andy is up to....
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FULL_METAL_HAT Donating Member (673 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
89. Visual connections of Gosch to the other players -- AWESOME SITE
This site has an excellent feature to see the connections between people.

I've posted a few of them in the hopes that someone catches an interesting connection between someone.

The site has lots of entries so if there's someone else you'd like to check out, go to the site and search.

NameBase a cumulative index of books and clippings
-----------

Citations to names of individuals and groups involving :
assassinations, organized crime, and scandals
Wall Street and transnational corporations
foreign policy and media establishments
political elites from the Right and Left
Cold War history and intelligence
http://www.namebase.org



Connections to "Rusty Nelson" (one step away from Gosch)
http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb06?_NELSON_RUSTY_


Connections to "George HW Bush"


Connections to "George W Bush"


Connections to "Negroponte"


Connections to "Karl Rove"


And this is interesting, a list of all "Gannons" they have

GANNON ANTHONY
Britain 1948
Lee,M. The Beast Reawakens. 1997 (98)

GANNON FRANCIS X (JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY)
Epstein,B. Forster,A. The Radical Right. 1967 (207, 210)

GANNON FRANK (CNP)
Council for National Policy. Mailing List. 1984
Resource Center. The New Right Humanitarians. 1986 (36)


GANNON JIM
Dealy,F. The Power and the Money. 1993 (277)
Hartung,W. And Weapons for All. 1994 (131)
Kurtz,H. Media Circus. 1994 (251-2)

GANNON JOHN C
Assn. National Security Alumni. Unclassified 1995-W (17)
Council on Foreign Relations. Membership Roster. 2004

Covert Action Information Bulletin 1979-#6 (26)
Intelligence (Paris) 1995-11-20 (45)
Intelligence (Paris) 1997-08-25 (22)
Intelligence (Paris) 1998-06-08 (14)
Intelligence (Paris) 1998-06-22 (5)
Intelligence (Paris) 1998-11-30 (8)
Intelligence (Paris) 2000-12-11 (16)
Mangold,T. Goldberg,J. Plague Wars. 2000 (10)
Neuberger,G. Press Conference in Costa Rica. 1981-11-05
New York Times 2002-11-30 (A10)
Washington Post 1995-08-01 (A17)
Washington Post 2001-05-29 (A13)
Washington Times 1995-08-01 (A4)

GANNON MATTHEW KEVIN
Yemen 1979 Jordan 1981 Syria 1986 Lebanon 1988

Bainerman,J. The Crimes of a President. 1992 (205-6)
Chasey,W. Pan Am 103: The Lockerbie Cover Up. 1995 (350)
Covert Action Information Bulletin 1990-#34 (42)
Geheim Magazine (Germany) 1988-#9 (33)
Goddard,D. Coleman,L. Trail of the Octopus. 1993 (83, 85, 143)
Intelligence Newsletter (Paris) 1989-03-29 (1)
Intelligence Newsletter (Paris) 1989-07-19 (5)
Nair,K. Devil and His Dart. 1986 (119)
Perry,M. Eclipse. 1992 (161-4, 167-70, 176-7)
Stich,R. Defrauding America. 1994 (594, 596)
Thomas,G. Gideon's Spies. 2000 (326-7, 334)
Thomas,K. Keith,J. The Octopus. 1996 (93)
Time 1992-04-27 (31)
Washington Times 1988-12-26 (A8)
West,N. Games of Intelligence. 1990 (12)

GANNON ROBERT (JESUIT)
Cooney,J. The American Pope. 1984 (11, 281)

GANNON SUSAN TWETTEN
Time 1992-04-27 (32)

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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #89
96. That's amazing
thanks.
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sleipnir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
91. Unfriggin' Believable!!!! The Doctor was murdered because of Guckert!
It seems to be true......damn they will stop at nothing.

We certainly are at the end of times.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #91
97. wha. . ?
what doctor???

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phusion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #97
101. he means H.S. Thompson n/t
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #91
99. whoa there!!!!!!!
It's occurred to me, too. But we really can't just say it as if there's no question. Seems to me it's too early to tell.

(I posted upthread, too, but still was just sharing a bit of speculation. Pure speculation. We need to take it a step at a time.)
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Sparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
92. Supposedly Gosch has blue eyes and Gannon's eyes are green.
Probably isn't him.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #92
100. youngsters often have blue eyes
then grow up into people with green eyes. I did.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #100
137. That is so true! My husband had blue eyes as a child and
they changed to green in his later teen years. My mother-in-law,when I first met her, thought he still had blue eyes and was blown away when I pointed out they were now green (that was shortly after I had first met him.)
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #137
300. Brown eyes OFTEN turn to green or amber as a person ages.
As a child I had nearly black brown eyes. As I age they become more and more green. I read this is a sign of a specific vitamin deficiency but I can't remember what. copper maybe
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #92
103. Sometimes my eyes are blue, sometimes
greenish and sometimes greyish, depending on how I'm feeling or what I have on for clothing.(I guess anyway) but they do change colors.
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soulcore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #103
107. i second this, i had greenish eye as a child, they eventually turned...
a Hazelly blue and still waver between greyblue/greygreen. I know lots of peeps that have the same "colors".
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #92
124. Also, the eyebrows are totally different. I don't believe that would
change either.

I don't think they are one and the same, as JimmieJeff is much older, but I have a feeling that this is one of the mysterious things (same initials) that might lead to finding out what happened to Johnnie.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #124
145. In the only unaltered photo taken before he disappeared
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 09:03 AM by Spazito
his eyebrow shape, etc, is not really visible although his left one shows a little:



The photo that shows his eyebrows is an age-enhanced photo that shows what he might look like in later years.

Edited to add second photo posted by Andy, another untouched one that shows his eyebrows:



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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #124
309. Eyebrow thin with age. Gay men often pluck them too.
You can change the shape of your eyebrows very easily with plucking. If Gannon was a high priced call boy that dealt with wealthy individuals he likely got regular pedicures, manicures and , facial treatments.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #309
311. Interesting that you mention this.
I have been thinking about the eyebrows, and 'plucking'. He is known to be shaving his body hair (according to his websites). Plucking eyebrows for a more 'pert, youthful expression' is a possibility.

If you pluck long enough, it does not come back (I wish I'd done less plucking for the fashion of my youth).

I still am not sure it relates to Gosch, I'm just saying that there are so many similarities that the eyebrows can't rule it out.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #92
140. i cant say what color my childs eyes are
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 08:38 AM by seabeyond
normal there is not a name for the color and sometimes green, blue or grey. so i dont know
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #140
152. Your child's eyes I believe would be called hazel.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #92
286. I've had green eyes all my life and people swear to me they are blue.
this is a good deal because this is how they identified the afghan girl (national geographic), the eyes are like fingerprints if you have a close enough photo to scan.

MY eyes still look blue most of the time in photos.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
98. TWO!!!
TWO fucking packs of cigarettes I have smoked since I started reading this thread at 3 PM today. (most just burned away in the ashtray, but STILL.

I have visited nearly 60 links today. I feel like I just drove from DC to LA. What have I learned about that I did not know before?

The franklin thing.
The Barney Frank scandal.
Chemtrails, what are they and why I should be worried.
Bohemian Grove.
Bush Sr. and a black child prostitute.
Mindcontrol by the gummint.
Aliens and portholes brought to us by Ron Hubbard and A. Crowlee
Barney Franks gay prostitute lover.
Satanic Rituals.
The List of people who were suicided.
James Gannon
Jeff Gannon and his lack of moles and big ears.
and a whole bunch of other stuff, so much that my brain has decided to shut down the RAM function.

And now I get to go to sleep for five hours.

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #98
122. I'm afraid to really dig in here.
:scared:
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #122
129. I know what you mean.
I had to go pick my son up at a friend's house the other night. I had been DEEP into the original thread. I found myself looking in my back seat for CIA agents, around the corner of my house to see if anyone was there and when I returned home I cautiously walked into a dark room. :scared: Paranoia is setting in. This crap really is scary. All the bodies along the way says a lot. They will kill anyone to keep this story quiet. :scared:
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #129
170. They'll kill anyone to keep the story quiet
but then put Johnny Gosch in the White House Press room?
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #170
196. Johnny Gosch could be under mind control.
That's what they do. It's part of the whole program. The dead people are not people who were on the inside. They were people who had found info they shouldn't have. A Deputy died when he found child porn pics in a field after a journalist's plain crash. That journalist had been given pictures by one of the kidnapped boys who took pictures for Larry King. The dead people were not from within the ring. At least not the ones I'M referring to. The children involved have/had no control over their actions.
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #196
236. Just to be correct here, the plane crash in Iowa
killed an investigator for the Nebraska legislature, Gary Caradori and his son.

http://www.johnnygosch.com/gunderson_report.html
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #236
271. You're right. He was an investigator for the Nebraska State Legislature
not a journalist, but the plane crashed in Illinois. Just to be correct here.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #98
275. LOL!
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
102. Even if this ends up being the wrong trail this would make a great book!
I just cant wait to read the ending.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
105. Continued Indeed!
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 01:08 AM by votesomemore
LibInTexas (850 posts) Sun Feb-20-05 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #193

247. Here's another take on the mysterious Caradori plane crash...

By Ted Gunderson:
<snip>
The evening of July 11, 1990, Gary Caradori, the investigator for the Nebraska State Legislature, Special Committee, called Senator Loran Schmit, Chairman of the Committee, from Chicago and told him he had the "smoking gun". Caradori told Senator Schmit he would fly that night from Chicago on his private plane with his son en route to Lincoln, Nebraska, with the evidence. The plane exploded in mid-air a short time later while flying over Aurora, Illinois killing Caradori and his 8-year-old son.
(cut)

My question was going to be WHY did he have his son with him in the plane? Found this: (cuts)
A Committee of the Nebraska State Senate was formed to investigate the pedophile charges. Their investigator was Gary Caradori. He took his son to a sports game in Chicago and while in Chicago, Gary was able to apparently pin down with witnesses the role in the pedophile ring of the Elder Bush. Gary called from Chicago to Loran Schmit, a member of the Nebraska State Senate investigating committee.



Gary "called committee chairman Loran Schmit, before his (Gary's) return trip and said, 'I got it, Loran. We've got 'em by the balls' ".That was July 11, 1990. "Caradori wasn't finished with his investigation. He and his son were killed on 7-11-90 while returning from the All Star game in Chicago. The plane came apart in the air and crashed and burned on impact. The NTSB has not issued a formal statement on the cause of the crash. In addition to going to the ball game, he was also working some leads on the case." And Gary's "briefcase and papers were inexplicably missing from the crash site, along with the two rear seats of the plane." (from "The Mystery of the Carefully Crafted Hoax", pages 77-78. The book goes into great details how the state and federal authorities, through a hoax, tried to cover up the pedophile ring operating at the highest levels in the nation's capital.) http://www.thisistherealtruth.com /


http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a396facc72f4d.htm
This goes deep and the freepers were writing about it FIVE YEARS AGO!

AND YEARGHH .. I'm gonna pull my hair out (I missed this story over the weekend - wasn't online. My outrage is recent. THANKS to all of you to present this issue!)

207. Covenant House

Edited on Sun Feb-20-05 02:38 PM by starroute
(cut)
http://www.blythe.org/nytransfer-subs/99cov/The_Real_Hi ...

(cut)In the United States, it fit into the Reagan scheme to "privatize" social services. According to Russ Baker's article in the Voice, the vast majority of Covenant House's clients were inner-city minority youth suffering from the loss of social services under the Reagan administration.

OH YES! LET's PRIVITIZE. All the more victims/prostitutes to make. Of course we know who the REAL prostitues are.
They bow to greed and corruption. Let us pray for them.


:grr:
:argh:
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #105
228. gary cadaori had just taken his son the the baseball
all star game in chicago!!

a wonderful father son experience...and then they were killed!

fly
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
106. Just to recap JDG - JDG linkage
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 01:08 AM by sojourner
similarities (and handle the objections that keep popping up)

Jeff (D?) Gannon
James D. Guckert
Johnny D. Gosch

Johnny Gosch worked for newspaper; his boss' name James Gannon

Ages for James/Jeff differ by about 10 years; the youngest of those matches age for Johnny Gosch.

Facial similarities as spotted by artists at DU: chin, eyes, mouth

Johnny Gosch had a birthmark on his chest. Left side. Check out the photo of Jeff Gannon...a purplish mark on his chest - left side.

----
People keep saying different ears...but the ears for Johnny Gosch don't show in the unretouched pix. So there's nothing to match with.

Eye color: blue for Johnny Gosch and green for Jeff Gannon. Doesn't mean a bloody thing. My own eyes were blue in youth. Now green. Really green. And they still look blue sometimes.

Jeff has moles that aren't there in Johnny's photo. Again, moles can and do show up later in life. My 30 yr old daughter still finds new ones.

So, there you have it. A summary of the major "coincidences" seeming to link the JDGs. You decide how wacky it is to think there's a possibility here. No one says certainty. But possibility? Me thinks so.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #106
118. O.M.G.
As a portrait artist (non-professional) I found the similarities in bone structure, lips, chin striking. I expected to dismiss this immediately when I saw the photos. I could not.

Then upon reading this:

Jeff (D?) Gannon
James D. Guckert
Johnny D. Gosch

Johnny Gosch worked for newspaper; his boss' name James Gannon

Ages for James/Jeff differ by about 10 years; the youngest of those matches age for Johnny Gosch.


I'm speechless.

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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #106
123. Also, Andy's communication from Gosch's mother
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 06:12 AM by Minstrel Boy
certainly didn't blow this off:

I sent Mrs Gosch an email. Followed by a phone call. Here is her response

"Andy,

Thank you for taking the time to email me the photo link. I have already contacted my PI and we will be checking this out as much as possible.

If I have any questions, I will get in touch with you.

Regards,

Noreen"
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #106
178. If Jimmy-Jeff served in the military and participated in the gulf war
or was around the same chemicals used during the gulf war, the moles could be caused by that. I dated a gulf war vet, it freaked him out to have new growths poppy up on his body - of course the VA said it was not related to the war, he had no problems, go away, you are okay!

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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #106
292. on the contrary
that kid has unusually thick hair.

and it doesn't lay flat around the sides of his head, but bowls out. what could cause that? protruding ears, maybe?
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #106
306. As for moles... they are usually caused by a virus and can also be
a sign of over exposure to the sun. Moles mean nothing from the standpoint of a child to an adult.
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EC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
109. All this would certainly explain how they are able to keep
people quiet and doing what they want....I posted something the other day about Bush's speech mentioning child slave markets during one of his SOTU addresses because everytime they want to throw someone off their trail, they bring it up first as something they are fighting against...I wonder if last year some of this threatened to come out?


I can see them using these "parties" after hours as blackmail to get Senators and Reps to vote the way they want...get them plastered at the regular party or put ruffies in their drinks, set them up for the "after party" take pictures and video, presto instant vote....
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #109
128. He also brought it up before the UN!
I remember thinking how damn STRANGE it was. Literally, out of the blue, he brought up the child slave/porno issue during his UN speech. It was like he was sending a "private message" to someone. There has to be a transcript of that UN speech somewhere. The issue came out of left field.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #109
132. I just thought aout that--"child slavery and sex-trade" GWB. Coincidence?
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 02:57 AM
Response to Original message
114. UPDATE: It is hitting the Fan
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 02:59 AM by votesomemore
(edits)

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42...
Posted: February 21, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern
By Joseph Farah
2005 WorldNetDaily.com

In a report based on an unnamed source, Raw Story reported McClellan visited a homosexual bar March 19, 1995. Another anonymous source was quoted as saying McClellan regularly frequented Austin, Texas, "gay clubs." McClellan is an Austin native. His mother, Carolyn Keeton Strayhorn, former mayor of Austin is comptroller of the state of Texas and considered a contender for the governorship.
...
Dotty Lynch, senior political editor for CBS News, about Rove, she speculated about a link.

"The architect of the Bush victories in 2000 and 2004 came through the ranks of college Republicans with the late Lee Atwater, and their admitted and alleged dirty tricks are the legends many young political operatives dream of pulling off," she wrote. "So when Jeff Gannon, White House 'reporter' for Talon 'News,' was unmasked last week, the leap to a possible Rove connection was unavoidable. Gannon says that he met Rove only once, at a White House Christmas party, and Gannon is kind of small potatoes for Rove at this point in his career."

She continued: "But Rove's dominance of White House and Republican politics, Gannon's aggressively partisan work and the ease with which he got day passes for the White House press room the past two years make it hard to believe that he wasn't at least implicitly sanctioned by the 'boy genius.' Rove, who rarely gave on-the-record interviews to the MSM (mainstream media), had time to talk to GOPUSA, which owns Talon."


http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0222/p11s01-codc.html
from the February 22, 2005 edition
Time for Bush to define 'independent press'
By Dante Chinni

What was more interesting than that exchange, however, was the one that immediately preceded it at the same press conference - a back-and-forth with reporters about the administration's paying reporters for positive coverage, as the Education Department did with Armstrong Williams. "There needs to be a nice independent relationship between the White House and the press," the president said.

The question is where Guckert fits into all this. True, the White House didn't pay him for coverage, we assume. But how exactly do he,and pseudo-reporters like him qualify as journalists and help create the "nice independent relationship" the president says he seeks?

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.pa...

White House shuns news hounds in favor of lap dogs

By Clarence Page
Originally published February 22, 2005

But all that's a titillating sideshow compared with the charges that House Democratic Whip Steny H. Hoyer of Maryland has called to the attention of the special prosecutor investigating the leak of Valerie Plame's identity as a CIA operative to columnist Robert Novak. In 2003, Mr. Guckert wrote on Talon News that he had asked Ms. Plame's husband, Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, about "an internal government memo prepared by U.S. intelligence personnel" that revealed his wife's CIA role.

Revealing a CIA agent's identity is a federal crime. Reporters for Time and The New York Times face possible jail sentences for refusing to say who revealed Ms. Plame's CIA role to them in an apparent effort to discredit Mr. Wilson's criticism of the Bush administration's Iraq war policy. Is the prosecutor putting Mr. Guckert's feet to the fire too? If not, why not?

Of course, every administration tries to manipulate the media. Team Bush has elevated it to a high art.

http://www.dailyillini.com/news/2005/02/22/Opinions/Col...

Column: You got some splainin' to do
By Elizabeth Aleman
Published: Tuesday, February 22, 2005

There are few things that would be more outlandish than me scribbling the word "PRESS" on a scrap of paper, tacking it onto a fedora and being granted a White House press pass. Perhaps a gigolo who moonlights as a writer for a right-wing Web site receiving such a pass could be considered slightly more ridiculous. Only because I actually write for an accredited news source, while he was admitted into the White House pressroom for two years without any credentials whatsoever.

February has been a booger of a month for James Guckert, a.k.a. "Jeff Gannon," who, aside from being my casting choice for any Right Said Fred tribute band, has recently retired from his post as White House reporter for Talon.com. Not only has he been caught with his pants down figuratively, but in the literal sense as well. Bloggers discovered nude photos of Guckert last week on numerous Web sites such as MaleCorps.com, WorkingBoys.net and MeetLocalMen.com.
...
Guckert, who applied for his passes under his real name, was denied a Capitol Hill press pass because Talon.com was not considered a "legitimate, independent news source." One would think that this fact alone was a hint to the White House press office that Guckert was not eligible to be admitted into the White House pressroom. Therefore, logic would indicate that whoever gave Guckert access to the White House everyday since 2003 must have known that he was not an accredited journalist and/or that he was a hooker, or else they would have simply asked him to apply for a hard pass. Continued...
...
I'm speculating at this point that Gannon/Guckert/whoever was scheduled to go down for Valerie Plame. High espionage is not my forte. Is this a red herring? A way to take him down? Or, will he squeal? Given the survial rate of potential squealers, he owes it to humanity to come clean while there's still time. Promise even if he goes away THIS doesn't!

Homeland Security . My Ass.


Hit the google links. Cry it OUT LOUD!


http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=gannon&ie=UT...
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 03:54 AM
Response to Original message
115. More deepness . From original thread
in_cog_ni_to (1000+ posts) Sun Feb-20-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #280

286. ANOTHER twist! Johnny Gosch worked for the Des Moines Register!


WHY on earth would his employer not want to do EVERYTHING in his/it's power to help the Gosch family find Johnny? Odd. VERY odd!

<snip>The Des Moines Register was ignoring any kind of helpful publicity
(no one could understand why. (Johnny worked for them), so we worked
with other forms of the press, in and outside our state. I received a phone call
in the spring of 1983, a woman saying, she worked at the Des Moines Register
in the newsroom. She reported, Shortly after the kidnapping, the editor at
that time, came into the newsroom and announced all articles written about
the Gosch boy WILL be slanted against the family and for the police. She
would not give me her name she was afraid of losing her job. I now knew
what was happening but didnt understand why!<snip>

http://www.johnnygosch.com/chap.pdf

Can someone ask Ms. Gosch where the father of her son is?
Hate to be "rude" but this might be espionage against the American People and the Republic for which we stand.
So rudeness will have to suffice.

I'm too polite to voice what I'm thinking at this point.
btw. for those just catching this, the owner of the paper was James Gannon.


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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:22 AM
Response to Original message
116. Is this an 'old' wrinkle on the story?
Google seems to end up in the oddest places, especially when looking for odd info. Gawd help me, I don't know how the hell ... but freeps were on this stuff (not tied to gannon, but gannon was in my search?!) over 4-5 years ago! Weird? Is this related to the rings you guys are talking about? Looks like they were on it to nail Barney Frank, although there are alot of others thrown in the mix.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a388cd49f5ce8.htm


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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #116
121. Look at this link:
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a388cd49f5ce8.htm#art...

Military officials involved. Could explain the poor bloques "military" facination/backround.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #121
134. Creepy that the ckickenhawks in Washington might be
"bottoms" for military type sex-sellers.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:29 AM
Response to Original message
119. My apologies if this has been posted, I have not scoured the
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enigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
125. incredible stuff on these threads..
I have no idea where (if at all) the stuff uncovered in this and the previous thread leads to, but it's unbelieveablt engrossing to read.

Well done to everyone that's contributed; you done a heck of a job.
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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
131. Interesting stuff in the latest Voice of the White House.
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 08:25 AM by tanyev
http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a1396.htm#001

February 19, 2005 ; The internet anti-Bush people are completely right about the Karl Rove/Gannon love affair business. I have been repeatedly told by people on the inside that would know, that Rove, who is a closet queen, has had an affair with this creep (it's all over now thanks to the heat generated by the alternate media. )Karl likes to be dominated and Gannon, an ageing weight lifter, likes to be around the seat of power...if you will forgive a terrible pun. Also, Fat Karl is the one, informed sources have repeatedly advised me, that leaked the name of Frau Wilson to Novak....

This is not going to go away and I can see it as a lovely vehicle for outing all kinds of the Beltway prominenten starting with one Supreme Court Justice, several governors (all Republican) and at least one very prominent televangelist...

I worked in the White House during some of the Reagan years and I can tell you for a fact that there was more action in dark closets and back offices than in all of the gay bars in Greenwich Village. None of this ever came near to Reagan who would have thrown up if he knew about the sticky floors and used condoms tossed out of White House windows, to decorate the bushes, but it certainly existed then and it exists now.


Just had a flash--VOWH mentions "one Supreme Court Justice". Somewhere up this thread or in the other one somebody mentions Rehnquist's daughter had a connection to missing foster children in Florida. Going to look for it...

Here it is. This thread, post 56, flyarm:

reinquists daughter was in charge of this dept i believe here in fla..and when she got fired they gave her 5 months to clear out her office..i remember being furious about that , evidently money was missing or mis appropriated and they gave her 5 month to vacate her office...i thought at the time and i wrote a letter to the editor at the time..who gets 5 months to shred their records when getting fired for a real lousey job..missing kids and missing money..and they didnt put locks on the doors and do an audit??
and i remember they said the paper work was in such a disarray that some kids would never be found.


Oh, dear God.


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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #131
142. i would say scalia, seems to be in the cult sick group
with things in his speech i have heard

thomas probably plays too
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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #142
147. Scalia did make that remark about orgies.
And of course it was SO outrageous that everyone immediately knew he was not serious.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #142
256. Scalia, Opus Dei, and Sadistic Cults
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 04:13 PM by Donailin
Scalia belongs to Opus Dei, the same cult of catholicism (and same "parish" in VA.) that Robert Hanson, Convicted FBI turned spy for the Soviets, belonged to. Hanson was so holy that he would set up a hidden camera in his bedroom and allow his best friend watch Hanson have sex with Mrs. Hanson. Sick and twisted. Which is what always happens in a puritanical religion it appears.

Some info:
http://taconline.org/2001/2001-04/Henningsen401.htm

Founded in 1928 in Spain by Josemaria Escriva de Balaguer, the stated purpose of Opus Dei is to Spread throughout society a profound awareness of the universal call to holiness and apostolate through ones professional work carried out with freedom and personal responsibility. One would be hard-pressed to argue with their mission statement. The controversies that arise over Opus Dei stem from their practices, which may be the main reason that they prefer to cloak the majority of their activities in secrecy. Among the more questionable practices of Opus Dei members are: The wearing of a spiked chain called a Cilice that breaks the skin around the upper thigh for two hours each day; beating oneself 33 times once a week with a cord-like whip known as a Discipline (many Opus Dei members ask permission of their superiors to engage in this activity more often. Opus Dei Founder Josemaria Escriva de Balaguer was said to be so fierce in his use of it that he routinely splattered the bathroom walls with blood); recruitment through the use of front groups; lack of informed consent (practices such as opening all incoming and outgoing mail, corporal mortification such as that described above and the donation of entire salaries are not revealed until after an initial commitment has been made); a prohibition against telling family members and friends of ones involvement in Opus Dei; and a prohibition against displaying photographs of loved ones. Though some close to Opus Dei claim that the corporal mortification has been modified in recent years, the impenetrability of the organization makes that assertion impossible to verify. Though it is a fact that corporal mortification was once more widely practiced within the church, modern psychology has long since brought an end to those practices since such behavior is now deemed sado-masochistic and inappropriate as an aid to spiritual development. The combination of questionable forms of corporal mortification and the strict controls it imposes on its members have made many refer to the group as a cult, and much as the moonies gave rise to numerous organizations dedicated to deprogramming those who had become victims of Sun Myung Moon, Opus Deis activities have given rise to the Opus Dei Awareness Network (ODAN) which provides education, outreach and support for those negatively affected by Opus Dei. Perhaps most damaging of all to the organization was the testimony of one of its most revered members, Maria del Carmen Tapia, who, in the autobiography of her experiences within Opus Dei, claims that she was held a virtual prisoner at the organizations headquarters in Rome from 1965-66 and subjected to severe psychological abuse.

Opus Dei has unfortunately discovered no better friend and ally than John Paul II. The popes personal spokesperson, Joaquin Navarro-Valls, who is widely credited with the creation of our media pope, is himself a member of Opus Dei. In the 1980s, John Paul II granted Opus Dei the status of personal prelature, an entity that answers only to their prelate in Rome (in this case, Javier Echevarria). Popes Pius XII, John XXIII and Paul VI had all refused to grant Opus Dei this status and Opus Dei is currently the only personal prelature within the church. In practical terms, what this means, is that local church authorities have nothing to say about Opus Dei activities or its members. John Paul II also beatifed Opus Dei founder Josemaria Escriva de Balaguer despite the fact that Tapia and others warned him against it and he is said to be bent on canonizing him. Reportedly given to massive outbursts of temper throughout his life, Josemaria de Balaguer was hardly a model for Catholic imitation and yet members of Opus Dei are inculcated into a cult-like reverence for him and told both that they may not question his teachings and that he is to be revered even above the pope.



The status that Opus Dei currently enjoys within the church raises serious questions about who they are and what theyre about. And given the large number of photo-opportunities our Protestant President Bush has been engaging in with high-ranking cardinals and bishops within our church, and his extremely surprising suggestion in mid-March that Americans put the teachings of Pope John Paul II into practice, it is probably a good thing that major news agencies are focusing attention on what role, if any, Opus Dei plays in the lives of prominent U.S. politicians.



More to the point, we need to ask what secrecy, class-bound caste systems and sado-masochistic abuse have to do with our church. What possible activity could any Catholic group be engaged in that justifies secrecy? If the work of Opus Dei is so vital to the Vatican, why not shout it from the rooftops and make both their membership lists and their practices public? Is there something that the Vatican does not want us to know about them? These are questions were long overdue in asking and it should be evident to all Catholics that any organization that claims the need to live under cover of darkness has nothing whatever to do with Jesus Christ.



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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #256
295. it's not surpising these fundie cults go satanic with regard to
sexuality. It's an extremely abusive paradigm they are raised with, and done while their brain is forming, those configurations are hard to un wire once they are embedded.

I had a friend whose father was a minister, she said he was in a pedophile ring called "We too belong" or WTB, and that she was sexually abused by him and his friends.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #131
146. OMG. That is unbelievable. I have never heard about the Rehnquist daughter
scandal. All these connecting issues/people is not a coincidence. It just can't be.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
133. More Pics of Johnny one untouched the other to age 30
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #133
135. does gaggert have a scar on his right cheek? Anybody care to refine
the Gannon images? (Can't they be tweaked and blown up, like el-moronicus' backbox?")
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goodboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #133
144. If that's not gannon, I'll make a sizeable donation to DU..
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #133
149. Does anyone have any information
about Guckert's family now? Where do they live and does he see them much? This story is just so freaky but I keep thinking about the boy Steven Stainer who was abucted and escaped from his captor 7 years later. That was a heart-wrenching story.
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #149
167. I found a listing for Guckert at Classmates.com
It said he went to school in Conneaut Lake, PA from 71-75.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #167
169. It would be great if we could get a photo of the Guckert
listed as attending that school so we could compare it with the White House Guckert. That could definitively answer some questions, imo.
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #169
171. I just went back and one of the listings is gone
When I first looked, about two weeks ago, there were two listings for "Jim Guckert" one of them had no profile, the second one redirected me to "Mary Smith". The latter is now missing. :shrug:
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #171
172. Whoa, more scrubbing being done?
This is so strange, it seems anything with the name Guckert is being re-directed or scrubbed. One sure has to ask why!
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #169
216. False identify?
I posted something on the first thread about Covenant House -- the other major sex-and-powerful-people scandal of 1989. It included something that might be relevant here:

http://www.blythe.org/nytransfer-subs/99cov/The_Real_Hi...

Covenant House is a New York-based organization for teenage runaways founded by Franciscan Father Bruce Ritter in 1968. Ritter began the organization to serve "streetwise" youths who could not obtain assistance from New York social service agencies. In 1977 Ritter and his cause caught the attention of business magnate and founder of AmeriCares, Robert Macauley. Macauley "adopted" Covenant House and recruited some of his influential friends, including former Treasury Secretary William Simon and J. Peter Grace to join the Covenant House board of directors. Under the tutelage of Macauley and the board, Covenant House gathered influence and financial support from around the nation and expanded its operations.

<snip>

The Covenant House image began to crumble in December 1989 when former resident Kevin Lee Kite, a former male prostitute, claimed in an interview in Outweek Magazine that Father Ritter had used some $25,000 in Covenant House funds to support him in return for sexual favors. Kite also revealed that Ritter had provided him with papers that allowed him to assume the identity of Tim Warner, a young boy who had died.

<snip>

Covenant House was implicated in the issuance of the baptismal certificate of a 10-year-old boy who died of leukemia to Kevin Kite to provide Kite with a new identity. It is believed that the certificate was obtained from a Buffalo diocesan priest affiliated with Covenant House. Father Ritter has acknowledged that Covenant House officials secured the certificate.

On the other hand, Guckert/Gannon's connection to the college fraternity from c. 1980 seems like more of a problem. Does anybody have any details on that?
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #216
322. Guckert's response to Anderson Cooper during the interview
when Anderson was questioning him on his use of 'Gannon' versus applying for a pass under Guckert, Guckert's response " That is the name on my driver's license" struck me as VERY odd. I would have responded to a question as to why I used my name by saying "That's my real name" not "That's the name on my driver's license". I have, since that interview, asked friends who are not at all interested in the details or members of DU or the other sites currently investigating the 'Gannon' story, how they would have responded to a question like that and they all agree Guckert's response was very odd.

There is certainly a question, imo, whether Guckert is his real name, never mind his use of 'Gannon' as alias. It certainly merits further investigation, imo.
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nonny Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #167
176. Graduation year should be about 1988
Johnny Gosch was 12 years old when he was kidnapped in 1982.
He would have been 18 in 1988.

I think this listing (1971-1975) would be for an older man.

:shrug:
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #176
177. I looked this up a couple of weeks ago
When it was assumed that Jeff Gannon was 47 and it fit pretty well into the timeline. Now, I really have no clue.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #176
270. Yeah and you're hooked to a polygraph when you register at Classmates.com
Hello?
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #149
313. Yes, and Adam Walsh. "America's Most Wanted's" host's son
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 06:57 PM by bush_is_wacko
I heard Mr. Walsh mention a while back that he thought they were getting close to finding out who killed him. He also ran a story on Goche or whatever his name is and apparently did so against the wishes of MANY callers. I think he should be contacted. I don't know how that can be done though. I don't watch much TV and I have no idea if this show is still on but they did used to have a hotline. I'm still engrossed in this thread, but I will attempt to look around at some point for a contact on the guy. The Ramsey connection has been going through my head for a long, long time and the HST connection hit me hard.

BTW, Staynor's brother was convicted of murdering several women in Yellowstone Park I believe and is serving time in prison with a death sentence if I remember right. Didn't "America's Most Wanted" help break that case?

I just remembered, I think Staynor was murdered in jail. Anyone know for sure?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #133
153. side by side helps me
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 09:39 AM by merh


Uncanny similiarities

Full bottom lip, thin top lip
prominent check bones
shape of the eyes
chin

:shrug:

Is there a gap in the front two teeth in both photos?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #153
157. The cleft chin did it for me n/t
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #157
165. I added chin to the list, I had mistakenly left it off. thanks
You have to look at all features. The eyes appear to have the same shape. We need someone to photoshop the images and then overlay one eye over the other (similar to how cops compare). The check bones and shape of the face, the chin, they are all similar.

It looks like the same gap in the front teeth too.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #153
208. ..
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #208
277. Is that his Mom? Anybody have a pic of his Dad?
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #153
231. Wisdom teeth would have pushed the front teeth in later on...
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 02:13 PM by Goldmund
...so the gap wouldn't necessarily remain.
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laundry_queen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #231
240. This is true.
I had a huge gap as a child (9 or 10), so much so I was told I would probably need braces, but as I got older, gap disappeared, Now have totally straight teeth, front teeth touching, no gap at all.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #133
155. I will repeat as I did in a previous post, Johnny and JimmieJeff
have different eyebrows. JimmieJeff's get full as they arch upward.



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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #155
160. That photo is a computer enhancement of what he would look like
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #155
161. eyebrows
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 09:43 AM by merh
Don't they thicken with age? Look at the second photo of gannon and the arch and extenstion of the eyebrows.



The extension and arch appears the same. Also note, shaving eyebrows to shorter lengths is not unheard of.



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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #161
227. Maybe this will help
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 02:28 PM by DearAbby


Edit:

Artist eye...I can see the resemblence in the cheeks, and dimples at the side of the mouth...the chin seems longer, but that could be the angle and age. (from lower lip to the tip of the chin.) the square angle of the chin is the same. (Guckert's face seems narrower, slimmer, but remember the face of Johnny is young and still has some "baby fat" due to age.

Tip of nose as well is very simular.

This is scary the holy crap out of me.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #227
229. All I can say is that the similarities are uncanny!
:shrug:

Thanks for the hair transplant.
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #227
308. horizontal flop the left pic for a better comparison. n/t
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #161
315. This is another reason I KNOW Gannon is not 47!
First of all eyeybrows often THIN with age but they may grow bushy hair that is kind of akimbo making them APPEAR thicker AND my husband is only 41 and his eyebrows have thinned immensly and grow funny hairs like that. Gannon is for sure UNDER 40 or has his eybrows done professionally. That would not be farfetched given his profession and salary as a high priced callboy who regularly does business with the elite.
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12345 Donating Member (267 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #155
164. I'm not convinced of the resemblance, yet, but
I can say that my husband's eyebrows have changed over the years that I've known him. They seem to get bushier as he ages...
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #155
266. He probably waxes, plucks and pencils them, anyway.
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jeanarrett Donating Member (813 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #133
182. These are both age-enhanced photos.
Just different ones.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
138. Tell me all these stories are just in my head, please:
BRITAIN:

Alleged Pedophiles Helm Blair's War Room
Counterpunch, January 29, 2003

A child-sex scandal that threatened to destroy Tony Blair's government last week has been mysteriously squashed and wiped off the front pages of British newspapers. Operation Ore, the United Kingdom's most thorough and comprehensive police investigation of crimes against children, seems to have uncovered more than is politically acceptable at the highest reaches of the British elite. In the 19th of January edition of The Sunday Herald, Neil Mackay sensationally reported that senior members of Tony Blair's government were being investigated for paedophilia and the "enjoyment" of child-sex pornography:

"The Sunday Herald has also had confirmed by a very senior source in British intelligence that at least one high-profile former Labour Cabinet minister is among Operation Ore suspects. The Sunday Herald has been given the politician's name but, for legal reasons, can not identify the person.

There are still unconfirmed rumours that another senior Labour politician is among the suspects. The intelligence officer said that a 'rolling' Cabinet committee had been set up to work out how to deal with the potentially ruinous fall-out for both Tony Blair and the government if arrests occur."

The Blair government has responded by imposing a comprehensive blackout on the story, effectively removing it from the domain of public discussion. Attempts on the part of this journalist to establish why the British media has not followed up on the revelations have met with a wall of silence. Editors and journalists of The Times, The Daily Telegraph, The Guardian, The Independent, The Sunday Times, The Observer, The Sunday Telegraph, The Daily Mail, The Daily Express, The Mirror, The Sun, the BBC, Independent Television News and even The Sunday Herald have refused to discuss the matter.
http://www.counterpunch.org/james01292003.html


Call to lift veil of secrecy over Dunblane
The Guardian, February 14, 2003

Campaigners yesterday called for a review of the 100-year secrecy rule imposed on some documents seen by the inquiry into the Dunblane killings which were never made public.

The move comes after the Scottish cabinet this week instructed Scotland's most senior law officer to look again at the 100-year ban placed on a police report on Thomas Hamilton, who murdered 16 primary schoolchildren and their teacher.

There have been allegations that the lengthy closure order was placed on the report after it linked Hamilton to figures in the Scottish establishment, including two senior politicians and a lawyer.

...

There has been much speculation about the identity of the politicians in the report. It is known that in June 1996 Michael Forsyth, then Scottish secretary and MP for Stirling, congratulated Hamilton on running a boys' club in Dunblane.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianpolitics/story/0,3605...

BELGIUM:

Ritual abuse, pedophilia, murder, and the charge of a government cover-up
The Telegraph, August 17, 2001

Five years after the bodies of four murdered Belgian girls were discovered at houses owned by the paedophile Marc Dutroux, the father of one of them has accused the country's police and justice system of a cover-up ensuring that his trial has still not begun.

The claims by Paul Marchal, father of An Marchal, who was 17 when she disappeared in 1995, echo what many Belgians now privately believe: that Dutroux and his paedophile ring had connections with high-ranking members of the establishment in Belgium.

In a country that is becoming inured to corruption in public life, the theory of a cover-up is now increasingly accepted as the real reason why the Dutroux case has yet to come to court.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/20...

Adding further fuel to the fire, as a Los Angeles Times report revealed, were claims by a highly regarded childrens activist, Marie-France Botte the Justice Ministry is sitting on a politically sensitive list of customers of pedophile videotapes. The same report noted, the affair has become further clouded by the discovery of a motorcycle that reportedly matches the description of one used in the 1991 assassination of prominent Belgian businessman and politician Andre Cools. Michel Bourlet, the head prosecutor on the pedophile case, meanwhile, has publicly declared that the investigation can be thoroughly pursued only without political interference. Several years ago, Bourlet was removed from the highly charged Cools case, which remains unsolved.

A report in Time magazine alluded to murky links between the Dutroux operation and organized crime figures. Marc Verwilghen - the chief investigating magistrate on the case stated the case more bluntly: For me, the Dutroux affair is a question of organised crime. Also mentioned in the Time article was the use of secret underground tunnels, not unlike those described by children a decade earlier at the infamous McMartin Preschool.

Outrage continued to grow as more arrests were made and evidence of high-level government and police complicity continued to emerge. One of Dutroux's accomplices, businessman Jean-Michel Nihoul, confessed to organizing an orgy at a Belgian chateau that had been attended by government officials, a former European Commissioner, and a number of law enforcement officers. A Belgian senator noted, quite accurately, that such parties were part of a system which operates to this day and is used to blackmail the highly placed people who take part.

http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/Pedo...


PORTUGAL

Portugal rocked by child sex scandal
Allegations that a child sex ring has been operating out of state-run children's homes in Portugal for decades has prompted intervention by President Jorge Sampaio.

BBC, May 29, 2003

The developments sparked an outcry in Portugal, particularly when it was reported that a former president and several government ministers, as well as the police, knew of the allegations as far back as the early 1980s but failed to take action.

"Faced with the horror that so many children, who were entrusted to us to be educated and cared for, were victimised it is necessary to declare here that the president is certain that the guilty will be severely punished," President Sampaio said in a speech.

The latest high-profile arrests are of men publicly accused of sex abuse by former children of Casa Pia, Portugal's largest network of homes for troubled children.

Casa Pia first made the headlines following allegations that an employee at the institution allegedly helped wealthy child molesters to meet young boys in his care for over two decades.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2948766.stm

YUGOSLAVIA

Government officials in sex trafficking ring arrested

The Independent, 06 December 2002

When police in the tiny republic of Montenegro swooped on a suspected pimp accused of running a major sex trafficking operation, they ran into an embarrassing problem.

The man they were about to put behind bars was none other than the country's deputy state prosecutor.

Montenegro has been shaken hard by the burgeoning scandal, which allegedly involved leading members of the judiciary, police and political officials. Zoran Piperovic, the republic's deputy prosecutor, was arrested this week, and six other officials have been detained. They are accused of forcing women, mostly from Moldavia, Ukraine and Romania, into prostitution.

The arrests are only a small part of the scandal, according to sources in the Montenegrin capital, Podgorica. It is an open secret in the Balkans that people-trafficking rings run through Montenegro to Bosnia and Kosovo, with profits from the dirty trade reaching millions of euros.
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=35...

CHILE

Chilean elites caught in child porn ring

Boston Globe Jan 12 2004

VALPARAISO, Chile -- Congresswoman Maria Pia Guzman is a strait-laced conservative who has suddenly and unexpectedly become an outcast at the Congress building here. Sometimes her follow legislators murmur an insult when she comes within earshot: "Witch!"

Guzman did not unleash the sex scandal now rocking Chile's political and social elite, a sordid tale centered around a millionaire businessman and some runaway teenagers.

But she did publicly link a handful of congressmen and senators to the case, suggesting some of her own political allies might be involved in an alleged ring of prostitution and child pornography. And for that, some of her fellow legislators will not forgive her.

When she gets in an elevator with other congressmen, they often step out. "There is a very strong psychological warfare going on," Guzman said in an interview in her Valparaiso office. Lighting a cigarette, she added: "Before this case, I had stopped smoking."
http://www.prisonplanet.com/120104chileanelites.html

MEXICO

Mob In Mexico Burns Two Federal Agents Alive

November 24, 2004

MEXICO CITY -- A crowd angry about recent child kidnappings cornered plainclothes federal agents taking photos of students at a school on Mexico City's outskirts and burned the officers alive, the latest example of mob justice in a country beset by corrupt police and high crime.

...

The violence began in the early evening, when locals collared three men staking out a school in the San Juan Ixtlayopan neighborhood. The area has been tense since two youngsters disappeared and were feared kidnapped from the school. Some in the crowd appeared to believe the agents were kidnappers. When asked about complaints that authorities had failed to respond to demands to investigate the disappearances, Figueroa said a full schedule had prohibited federal authorities from concentrating on the case.
http://www.10news.com/news/3946530/detail.html

TOLEDO

April 2004

TOLEDO, Ohio - Investigators re-examined the 1980 slaying of a nun whose body was found in a chapel surrounded by candles after another woman alleged she was abused by Roman Catholic priests during Satanic and sadomasochistic rituals.

...

Rev. Gerald Robinson, 66, was charged Friday with murdering Sister Margaret Ann Pahl, who was strangled and stabbed about 30 times on April 5, 1980. Her body was found in a hospital chapel, surrounded by lit candles with her arms folded across her chest.

...

The woman whose allegations led to the reopening of the case testified before a church review board in June and wrote a detailed statement alleging years of abuse by priests during her childhood.

The woman, now in her 40s, alleged that the clerics killed an infant and a 3-year-old child, performed an abortion on her and mutilated dogs, according to a copy of her statement obtained by The Blade. She described Satanic ceremonies in which priests placed her in a coffin filled with cockroaches, forced her to ingest what she believed to be a human eyeball, and penetrated her with a snake "to consecrate these orifices to Satan."
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&nci...

Dark allegations arise amid probe of nun's slaying
Authorities expand investigation to claims of ritualistic sex abuse

February 20, 2005

For Toledo police, it was a rare assignment: Search an abandoned house on the edge of a cornfield in western Lucas County where people reportedly took part in ritual abuse ceremonies.

...

No longer was the probe focusing solely on the man accused of killing Sister Margaret Ann Pahl, but was expanding into a new direction: accusations that children were molested and raped by priests in ritual services.

...

The investigation started with the details of the crime scene: an aging nun found strangled and repeatedly stabbed in the sacristy of the hospital chapel, her body posed to look like she was sexually assaulted.

But now, deeper issues have surfaced over accusations of sexual abuse of children in churches and schools by priests and lay members beginning in the late 1960s.
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2...
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #138
143. literally the rich/powerful feeding off poor/weak ........cannabalism
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #143
272. "Suddenly Last Sumnmer", baby!
Tennessee Williams. Look it up! ;-)
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nonny Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
148. "This whole coincidence is just unbelievable...."
Another coincidence.
2 boys named John Gosch missing?

http://infoweb.newsbank.com.oh0177.oplin.org/iw-search/...

Body Is Found; Lost Paperboy Case Reopened
Los Angeles Times
April 5, 1990
Author: From United Press InternationalNational Desk


The mother of Johnny Gosch, the West Des Moines paperboy who disappeared seven years ago, said Wednesday she was stunned by the discovery of the body of a young man with a similar name.

West Des Moines police thought they had a break in Gosch's baffling disappearance when Mexican authorities on Friday pulled the body of a young man from a drainage ditch in northern Mexico and identified him as John E. Gosch. The name was similar to John D. Gosch, who vanished on Sept. 5, 1982, while delivering Sunday newspapers in Des Moines.
But West Des Moines Police Lt. Gary Scott said a Tacoma, Wash., family named Gosch maintains the body is that of their adopted son.

Police in Yuma, Ariz., said John E. Gosch apparently was killed near their city in a drug-related shooting and the body ended up in Mexico. Yuma authorities said they will send dental records to West Des Moines for comparisons to the missing paperboy.
"I feel terrible," said Noreen Gosch, the paperboy's mother. "This whole coincidence is just unbelievable. It would be such a relief to have it over. I'd rather have the bad news over now instead of later."

The coincidences do not stop at the names of the victims. The man found in Mexico was born on Oct. 22, 1969, two weeks before the missing paperboy's birthday.
The Gosch family in Washington told West Des Moines police they adopted a boy in Oklahoma in 1980 and renamed him John.

Noreen Gosch said her son was spotted in Oklahoma a few months after he disappeared. A boy reportedly begged a woman for help before being dragged off by two men. The woman called police but they could not locate the youth.
In another coincidence, Des Moines police traveled to southern Mexico last week to check out a reported sighting of Eugene Martin, who disappeared from his Des Moines paper route two years after John D. Gosch vanished.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
150. We need information on this fella. I have a picture to post...
server space anyone?


Police arrest two on child porn charges:

A complaint about excessive comings and goings of teenage boys at a Chantilly house led, this week, to the arrest of two Fairfax County men for child pornography offenses.

Richard Evans, of Annandale, and George Bishop, of Chantilly, who co-manage a literary Web site, were both arrested by Fairfax County Police on Friday, Jan. 28.

Police started investigating Bishop, 46, after they received a complaint that he was allegedly inviting teenage boys to come to his house, to drink alcohol and to take illegal narcotics.

On Jan. 7, Detective Peter Charles, of the Fairfax County Police Department, served Bishop with a search warrant at his home at 4156 Pleasant Meadow Court in Chantilly.

http://www.timescommunity.com/site/tab5.cfm?newsid=1387...
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #150
166. From Johnnys' Mother
April 1983, six months after the kidnapping of my son, a young man identifying himself as George Paul Bishop contacted me by phone. He told me an international kidnapping/pornography ring had taken my son. I asked, how do you know that to be true, can you prove it! He replied, I work for a government agency which is investigating pedophile organizations. And there are indicators in your case that suggests your son was taken by such an organization. We feel he is being used for pornography and prostitution. All clues were pointing to the kidnapping being organized and not that of a lone criminal. I found it difficult to believe and accept that my son could have been targeted by such an organization. It was only in later years, I was to learn the possible reason Johnny was selected.



THE SECOND KIDNAPPING

I received a phone call from Sam Soda, local private investigator. He claimed to have valuable information for me and wanted to meet as soon as possible. We arranged to meet at his office the evening June 13, 1984. This was another of the tons of calls from people trying to help, I had no idea if his information was something I could use or not. Many of the leads turned out to be nothing. But I accepted the meeting with him.



I brought a tape recorder along and placed it on the table. Sam raised no objection to being taped. During this meeting, he disclosed information about a second kidnapping in Des Moines. He claimed this came from an informant. The kidnapping was to occur on the second weekend in August, on the South Side of Des Moines and that it would be another paperboy. I thought it strange that he would be telling me this and not the police. When I questioned him on this point, he claimed that I should be the one to take the information to the Des Moines Police, as it would be their jurisdiction. I thanked him for the information and left. I thought that if this information were on the level it would be a chance to prevent another kidnapping. I believed him but still questioned why he told me and not the police.

I went the very next day to the Des Moines Police Dept., asking if I could play the tape of the meeting with Mr. Soda for them. The uniformed officer at the front desk would not allow me to talk to a Detective, he insisted, If they felt my information was of importance they would call me. Repeatedly, I told him that I had a tape recording and in a couple of months, there would be another paperboy kidnapped. They treated me as though I had lost my mind and didnt want to be bothered with me. I was shocked, my son was kidnapped and they were rejecting information to prevent another crime.

When I left the Police Dept., I contacted WHO, WOI & KCCI TV station program managers. I did speak to each of them and relayed the information, telling them I also had a tape recording of this conversation. I was shocked to find out that even though they listened to me, no one wanted to listen to the tape. I was very uneasy about the whole situation and felt that Mr. Soda had given me important information. Someone needed to take it seriously. I contacted Frank Santiago, Des Moines Register reporter, who had been assigned to Johnnys story since the beginning. He was the only one who really listened to the information. He asked if I had been to the police. I told him yes and to the TV stations. He showed concern and then thanked me for the information.



Paul Bishop, CIA Asset made a short trip to Des Moines, July 31, 1984. It was at this time, he reported the name of the man who was the spotter. Sam Soda in Johnnys kidnapping. Paul explained that a spotter is the person who secures a photo of a victim prior to a kidnapping. Years later in 1991, I learned from Private Investigator Roy Stephens, that Paul Bonacci, (who participated in Johnnys kidnapping) positively identified a photo of Sam Soda as the man, who brought photos of Johnny to the kidnappers, who stayed in a motel room in West Des Moines, on September 4, 1982, the night before the kidnapping.



When Paul spoke his name, I said, Paul, you need to listen to this tape. I played recording of my meeting with Sam Soda. He listenedI then told him of my attempts to share the information with the police department and media. Paul was not shocked at what he heard on the tape and paid a visit to Sam Soda, questioning him concerning the source of the information on a second kidnapping. Sam was not too cooperative, became annoyed with Bishop, asking him to leave his office. There is indication today that these two individuals knew each other prior to this time.

Before Paul left Des Moines, he created a very intricate map of the Johnnys crime scene, indicating time sequence of each aspect of the kidnapping. Paul dated and initialed the map using GPB (George Paul Bishop)

After Paul flew back to Washington, I began to hear from Sam Soda on a regular basis. He wanted to be the investigator for Johnnys case. He asked for a bank account to be set up for him to draw upon for a salary. I explained to him, we already had a private investigator and could not afford another. He continued to attempt to be involved in any way he could on the case.

I think this suggests how intricate are the manipulations of those involved in the kidnapping and exploitation of children like Johnny. Eventually, I had reports from not only Paul Bishop but also Paul Bonacci (See Bonacci chapter) implicating Sam. What better way for them to keep track of my progress in this case than to plant someone in our very midst? To this very day no police agency has ever conducted a thorough investigation of Sam Sodas alleged participation in Johnnys case.

During this time, I had also been working with Senator Grassley from Iowa, he had been particularly helpful in facilitating with the FBI. Many times Paul Bishop would call me from Senator Grassleys office, when finished speaking with me, he would hand the phone to one of Grassleys aides who I was familiar withThat convinced me Paul was an accepted visitor on the hill in Washington. A short time later, I received my invitation to testify in Washington D.C. before Senator Arlan Specters Hearing on Organized Crime and its Relationship to Kidnapping. Senator Grassleys office made all of my arrangements

I was instructed by Senator Grassleys office to Federal Express a copy of my testimony and to carry a copy on the plane when I flew to Washington D.C. In testifying before Congress or State Legislature, you are required to prepare a written presentation of your testimony. Paul Bishop met the plane and escorted me to the hotel. I checked in and then he took me on a tour of Washington, followed by showing me some of the blighted places in D.C., where children as young as ten years old, hang out on the streets late at night. Today those blighted areas include places like the White House Mall at night. Even Congressmen are not safe on the steps of the Capitol.

Later that evening, Paul and I spent time going over every word of my testimony. I wanted to be sure that when I presented my information the following morning that it was clear to the committee, an Organized Pedophile Group took my son. Again and again, I have met with denial on the part of individuals and organizations that any such groups could exist in this country. For my protection, two men, dressed in suits were posted outside of my hotel room door all night. A major disturbance occurred downstairs in the lobby during the night, the police were called and arrested the man causing the problem. I have no idea if it was related to me.

The following morning, Paul Bishop, accompanied by two men arrived at the hotel to drive me to the Capitol for the Hearing. The bodyguards accompanied us always a few steps behind us. They were dressed well but business causal rather than suits. Paul looked very polished wearing a dark brown suit. As I entered the room, I noted there were reporters everywhere from ABC, NBC, CBS television, radio, newspaper and magazine. I recognized Special Agent Kenneth Lanning, a member of the Behavioral Science Unit of the FBI Training Division at Quantico, VA, I walked towards him, saying, Hello, I am Noreen Gosch, extending my hand to shake his. He pulled back and said, We know who you are. With that statement there was a definite chill in the air. It was as though the FBI resented me being asked to testify.

Paul sat beside me at the table, the two bodyguards blended into the background, as I testified to my knowledge of the slave auctions in the U.S. During my testimony, Senator Specter asked a number of questions about my sons kidnapping and the investigation. I explained, the FBI refused to enter the case, because they wanted me to prove my sons life was in danger. The lack of response from the local authorities created the need for private investigators.

At this hearing were books made available by the FBI showing children in a mail order type catalog, and offering them for sale. How much more needed to be proven about the existence of organizations national and international that

Before Paul left Des Moines, he created a very intricate map of the Johnnys crime scene, indicating time sequence of each aspect of the kidnapping. Paul dated and initialed the map using GPB (George Paul Bishop)



My schedule was so tight, I flew immediately back to Des Moines to meet with the crew from ABC 20/20. The following day, Karen Burnes and the film crew from 20/20 arrived in town. It was a beautiful Saturday and the second weekend in August. They filmed locations around Des Moines and West Des Moines, including the site where Johnny was kidnapped. Later when we arrived back at our home. I decided to share the information regarding a second kidnapping, supposed to occur the following day. I played the Sam Soda tape recording for Karen and shared how I had been to the Des Moines Police Dept., telling her of the reaction I received. I had hoped they would at least patrol the paper drop areas on the South Side of Des Moines. I also told Karen, I had given the information to the News Directors at the local TV stations. She showed great interest in the information.



After we finished filming for the day, the crew went to the airport and flew back to New York. Karen remained in Des Moines and stayed at the Marriott hotel. The next morning began with the shock of the phone ringing very early. It was a reporter at the local ABC TV station, telling me the second kidnapping had just taken place. He kept saying, It happened just as you said it would Mrs. Gosch.

I asked the reporter, how he knew what I had reported, as I only talked with his manager. He replied they spread it around the news room everyone thought you were nuts! He informed me the police were calling it a kidnapping immediately and the FBI were bringing in twenty-two agents from Quantico, VA to assist in the investigation and search. The young boy kidnapped was Eugene Martin, a newspaper carrier, preparing to deliver his papers on the South Side of Des Moines.

In Johnnys case, the FBI refused to enter the case, the reason they verbally gave me in my home was that they had no crime and it was my responsibility to prove my sons life was in danger. Why now with Eugene Martins kidnapping under identical circumstances was the FBI coming forward with a bevy of FBI agents. Could it be that somewhere during the months of Johnnys kidnapping the law enforcement here learned something?



Based on this phone call alone, I called Karen at the hotel and told her the second kidnapping had just happened, exactly as Sam Soda had told me on June 13, 1984. She immediately swung into action contacting her network and arranging for a film crew to come back to Des Moines, when the crew arrived, they went directly to the Des Moines police department.

The police department was in a state of confusion; Karen placed, put, shoved a microphone in the police chiefs face and demanded the answers to the following questions. Are you bringing in FBI Agents for this case? They didnt for Johnny Gosch! Are you going to use canine search teams? They didnt for Johnny Gosch! Will you do an aerial search? They wouldnt for Johnny Gosch! The Police Chief had no comment about the Johnny Gosch case and stated the department would do everything in their power to solve the Martin kidnapping. The police went all out using FBI, SWAT Teams, Canine Searches, and Aerial searches but like Johnny, Eugene Martin was probably quickly taken out of the immediate search area. This case appeared to be a duplicate of Johnnys kidnapping.



I expected the Des Moines Police Dept, to contact me and want to discuss the information I received from Sam Soda. Despite the fact that my information proved to be valid, the police never asked to listen to the tape. Sam Soda knew another boy was going to be kidnapped. Shouldnt the police have asked how did Sam Soda know? Who did Sam Soda know? Did Sam Soda also have the information that would have solved or prevented this crime?



Sam Soda, began to contact the Des Moines Police telling them that Paul Bishop (my CIA contact) had been in Des Moines a short time before the Martin kidnapping and was somehow involved. Sam must have bent the ear of some influential people because shortly afterward a Federal Grand Jury Hearing was scheduled; Paul Bishop was subpoenaed to testify.

He returned one more time to Des Moines. Following the hearing, Paul took a taxi to my home. He had been questioned about Eugene Martin, what he was doing in Des Moines, who he talked to in Des Moines for over six hours. While he was sharing the details of the hearing; the phone rang a number of times. It was Sam Soda each time wanting to know if Paul Bishop was there. He became very agitated, when I told him Paul was not there. He claimed, he needed to talk with Paul and could not find him. We felt it best for Paul to change his travel plans, I made arrangements with friends for Paul to stay the night at their home. He flew back to Washington D.C. a couple of days later, under different name. I received two more phone calls from Paul in the following week that was to be the last time I saw or spoke with Paul. The phone number to call Paul at Langley Air Force Base was no longer working.

Shortly after that visit, Paul Bishop or Robert LaVeck vanished without a trace. What happened to Paul Bishop, we have never been able to discover. Paul used to call me Mom. He was a young person in his twenties and I sometimes wonder, had he been used in some manner by the very element that took my son? Was he sent here to share with me the threads of truth, which would unfold later? It was years before the CIA was revealed as a part of this problem of missing children in our country and the world.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #166
201. Thanks Andy
O8)
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #166
209. I noticed that the new article of recent arrests
had the name "Bishop"... I FREAKED, because I read Mrs. Gosch's article yesterday, and recalled her referring to 'Paul Bishop' as the "CIA" guy.

When I went to this new article, I was relieved that it named a "George Bishop"....

BUT THEN, you posted part of Mrs. G's article, and in her first reference to Bishop, she calls him GEORGE PAUL BISHOP.

Now this is truuuuuly bizarre.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #209
210. Egads, Andy...
The recent article says that "George Bishop" is 46.

My recollection of reading Mrs. Gosch's article was that "Paul Bishop" was quite young... perhaps around 20 or so. I remember wondering how a person so young could be "CIA".

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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #166
212. Check this GEORGE PAUL BISHOP bit
From Mrs. Gosch's article:

April 1983, six months after the kidnapping of my son, a young man identifying himself as George Paul Bishop contacted me by phone.
......
Shortly after that visit, Paul Bishop or Robert LaVeck vanished without a trace. What happened to Paul Bishop, we have never been able to discover. Paul used to call me Mom. He was a young person in his twenties and I sometimes wonder, had he been used in some manner by the very element that took my son? Was he sent here to share with me the threads of truth, which would unfold later? It was years before the CIA was revealed as a part of this problem of missing children in our country and the world.

From the recent child pornography arrests:

Richard Evans, of Annandale, and George Bishop, of Chantilly, who co-manage a literary Web site, were both arrested by Fairfax County Police on Friday, Jan. 28.

Police started investigating Bishop, 46, after they received a complaint that he was allegedly inviting teenage boys to come to his house, to drink alcohol and to take illegal narcotics.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #212
213. They need to
show Mrs. Gosch a photo of this "George Bishop" guy, ASAP!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #213
218. She has seen it
and it is him. No doubt about it.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #218
220. OH MY GAWD, Andy.
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 01:41 PM by troubleinwinter
NOW I have literal goose bumps.

George Bishop, arrested pornographer is Mrs. Gosch's "George Paul Bishop"???

Egads. The one that was NOT questioned at the Congressional hearing.

This is real bad, folks. Real bad.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #220
221. Yes empahtically!
George Bishop, arrested pornographer is Mrs. Gosch's "George Paul Bishop"???
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #221
224. And he is the one that was a "CIA" guy...
and sat next to her in the congressional hearing and affirmed her story, as a Gov't. agent??!!!???!!!!

OMFG. This seems utterly unreal.

HOW did you find the article about the arrest?

WHY is this *&%%**!!$% out on bail?!!! He should be arrested immediately by the FBI as a suspect or material witness or something to the Gosch case. They BETTER have him under 24/7 surveillance.
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kittenpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #224
225. this is completely chilling, no matter if it's related to Guckert or not
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #220
253. you bet it is!!!!!!!!!!!!! n/t
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #218
222. Andy, post the link to the Mrs. Gosch 36 page PDF file.
I read it yesterday.

The "CIA" guy in Mrs. G's story has been identified just now as the recently arrested child pornographer... eek.

And he is FREE ON BAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #218
226. Utterly more revolting than I could have imagined...
Mrs. Gosch, trying to deal with the kidnapping of her son, doing everything in her power to help him and other exploited and missing children... and she's got the enemy sitting in her kitchen!
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #226
241. Another possibility: Bishop could have been set up.
For example, I've read numerous instances of decent agents who didn't want to play along with the protected drug trade, who were set up to take the fall for crimes they hoped to expose. It takes them out, and discredits their word.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #241
245. It crossed my mind, too. Could be that he conducts work
on pedophilia investigation, and this is part of the cover. Who knows?

Wonder whatever became of Sam Soda?

I'd be interested to know how Mrs. G was shown the photo of Bishop. Authorities? Andy?



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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #218
319. Are you freaking serious?!
Holy bejeesus! Is she saying anything else yet? This is insane!
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #212
264. Holy Fuck.
:::speechles:::

this is blowing my mind.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #166
251. why am i not surprised??
and gannon knew that these guys were investigated and about to be arrested......so does gannon know he is in grave danger ( yes) and had to do something to bring attention to himself..at the * press conference..he had to do something didnt he!! he had to draw attention to himself.. and he had to do it big...and make his question ridiculous enough for people to look into his background and "out" him...

if this is johnny he is a survivor.,..


fly
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #251
254. Nothing says "gannon knew that these guys were
investigated and about to be arrested....".

"if this is johnny...", well, that is still unknown.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #254
280. unknown, perhaps
but (and let me state that I am only on post 179 so far) why are all these seemingly unrelated arrests and suicides happening at this time?


I was skeptical about the connection of Franklin/King and Gannongate, but found the Franklin story positively extraordinary, yesterday. Twenty four hours later, I am not so sure. Something is going on here.

Thanks and keep up the good work, people. This is beyond a doubt the most interesting thing I've read in the last four years, and that speaks VOLUMES.
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kk897 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #150
183. Fairfax?! Geez, Louise, I'm working on a totally different thing that
leads straight to Fairfax and a "treatment" program for young people and Righties and swifties... no effing joke.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #183
214. Where IS Fairfax County? What state?
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #214
219. Virginia n/t
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #150
249. Isn't the end of January
About the time the bloggers were hot on Gannon's trail?
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #150
260. Here's a picture of Paul Bishop
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #260
262. I have another but
no server space to hold it.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #262
263. You can send it to me & I'll put it up, but...
it seems partly moot at this point, the IMPORTANT thing is taht Mrs. Gosch has seen it and identified him.

How did the photo come to her, Andy? By the authorities, you, a journalist?
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #263
269. Unknown n/t
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:43 PM
Original message
Here is the other photo of Bishop
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #262
283. Have you seen this information from a poster at a news site?
I can also confirm Mr. Evans is the teacher from Hayfield. It is 79/80 when "Pappy" (George Paul Bishop) and Mr. Evans meet. Bishop was in the Coast Guard at the time, stationed down the street from Hayfield High School.

Bishop was arrested between Sept 84 & Sept 85 in Alexandra for having sex with a 12 year old boy. The crime took place at Oak Wood apartments (Duke Street & Van Dorn). He fled to California (San Francisco or San Diego). He was hiding behind a marriage, saying he and his wife (Teresa) could not have children, and being a big brother to children of single mothers. He fled California after charges where filed there. Returned to VA, disappeared again, and apparently returned again.

http://www.wjla.com/news/allposts.hrb?s=204043
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
156. Was Gannon's remark "hiding in plain sight" a clue?
just asking :shrug:
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s-cubed Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
158. EVERYBODY, BE CAREFUL! I'M SPOOKED,
AS WELL AS PARANOID. BUT IF ANYONE FINDS REAL EVIDENCE, BE SURE YOU COPY IT MULTIPLY AND SEND IT VIA SNAIL MAIL TO SOME TRUSTED FRIENDS - AND LET OTHERS KNOW PUBLICLY THAT YOU HAVE DONE SO. REMEMBER, YOUR ONLY SAFETY IS IF THE PBT KNOW THAT SILENCING ONE PERSON WON'T SILENCE THE TRUTH. TOO MANY GOOD PEOPLE MADE THE MISTAKE OF HOLDING INFORMATION PRIVATE, AND LOST THEIR LIVES AS A RESULT.

WHO? ME, PARANOID?

WELCOME BACK ANDY! YOU ESPECIALLY BE CAREFUL! :hug:
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #158
321. I have already done some of this. I had a very strange reaction from
some friends of my dad's when I saw them just recently after sending them this connection. I think at least one of them is fairly well connected to the military Navy Seal, I believe. His girlfriend is in the "petroleum business". I think I am going to send even more to EVERYONE I can think of. SHIT! How many of us can they get to cover this story up?
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
159. Bush UN speech on slavery/sex trade, link here.
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/09/23/sprj.irq.bush.tran... /

There is another humanitarian crisis, spreading and yet hidden from view. Each year, an estimated eight to nine hundred thousand human beings are bought, sold, or forced across the world's borders. Among them are hundreds of thousands of teenage girls, and others as young as five, who fall victim to the sex trade. This commerce in human life generates billions of dollars each year, much of which is used to finance organized crime.

There is a special evil in the abuse and exploitation of the most innocent and vulnerable. The victims of sex trade see little of life before they see the very worst of life, an underworld of brutality and lonely fear. Those who create these victims, and profit from their suffering, must be severely punished. Those who patronize this industry debase themselves and deepen the misery of others. And governments that tolerate this trade are tolerating a form of slavery.

This problem has appeared in my own country, and we are working to stop it. The Protect Act, which I signed into law this year, makes it a crime for any person to enter the United States, or for any citizen to travel abroad for the purpose of sex tourism involving children. The Department of Justice is actively investigating sex tour operators and patrons, who can face up to 30 years in prison.

Under the Trafficking Victims Protection Act, the United States is using sanctions against governments to discourage human trafficking.

The victims of this industry also need help from other members of the United Nations. And this begins with clear standards and the certainty of punishment under the laws of every country. Today, some nations make it a crime to sexually abuse children abroad. Such conduct should be a crime in all nations. Governments should inform travelers of the harm this industry does, and the severe punishments that will fall on its patrons.

The American government is committing $50 million to support the good work of organizations that are rescuing women and children from exploitation, and giving them shelter, medical treatment, and the hope of a new life. I urge other governments to do their part.

We must show new energy in fighting back an old evil. Nearly two centuries after the abolition of the trans-Atlantic slave trade, and more than a century after slavery was officially ended in its last strongholds, the trade in human beings for any purpose must not be allowed to thrive in our time.

All the challenges I have spoken of this morning require urgent attention and moral clarity: helping Afghanistan and Iraq to succeed as free nations in a transformed region, cutting off the avenues of proliferation, abolishing modern forms of slavery. These are the kinds of great tasks for which the United Nations was founded.
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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #159
162. Maybe the purpose of this was to eliminate
any competitors.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #162
173. I think it was a message of blackmail.
That's how I heard it at the time. I even heard it in the tone of his delivery.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #173
188. Me too. It sounded like a warning.
Had it not come up out of the blue, I wouldn't have given it a second thought. Listening to that speech that day, I was thinking how bizarre it was that he was talking about that issue at that peculiar time. It was for a reason. A threat to someone.
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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #173
193. How could they blackmail others without implicating
themselves? They've already "sanitized" the evidence?
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #193
203. If they maintain chain of control over the evidence,
I think they could do it easily.
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Bethany Rockafella Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
174. But Gannon told Wolf that his family was getting harassed.
He finally said it was his mother and his brother and wife. So apparently he is in contact with his family.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #174
184. Who is harassing them? No one can find out who they are
and people have spent hours digging into his background.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #174
186. Gosch was reported to have been given a new family.
Paul Bonacci, himself a victim who testified that he had helped abduct Gosch, said Gosch was for a time being kept on the farm of a family in Colorado.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #174
192. Nothing Guckert has said, so far, has proven out...
so why would we just take his word on this part too? I certainly don't. Every time research is done on something he has said, it is proven he has lied.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
175. An Important Question. Has anyone done any research into JimmieJeff?
Where he grew up, what did he do until 1999 when he seems to start to appear on the scene as a callboy?

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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #175
179. We only have his own info, I believe...
after the escort story broke, there were quite a few posts about how little there was about Guckert before this, researchers couldn't seem to find information about him prior to the setting up of the escort websites.

At this point, I tend to disregard anything Guckert has said as being the truth until separate and credible evidence is found to back up his version.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #179
200. According to Olbermann last night, Guckgannon is suing bloggers, etc
for posting personal info on the net. ie. his social security number. Does anyone know where that was posted? Maybe if it is out there, it can be a lead to finding out who he really is?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7011497 /

He told the New York times he had taken legal action over some personal information posted on the Internet. No, no. He means his Social Security number.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #200
204. I think the comment "He means his SS #" is just a humourous
comment from Olbermann to show how ridiculous the 'suing for political assination' and the ludicracy of saying public advertising oneself as an escort can be considered private.

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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #175
181. The weird thing is that you haven't seen anyone from his "past"
Doing any interviews. The only person who has come forth is the guy who set up the websites, Paul Leddy. People love to have their 15 minutes of fame in cases like this and I just find it weird that no one has come forth to say how Jim or Jeff or whoever was such a nice kid.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #181
191. That's probably because of his "profession" or
the life he has lived has been solely within this child porn ring. No one would come forward. It's very telling, isn't it?
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #181
215. Hah! I keep thinking about this!
He claims to have been a teacher in public schools. IF that were true, you'd think that by NOW, one of his fellow teachers would have been found and give an interview about what a "great teacher he seemed". Or a college classmate... he claims college, eh? Claims the military... not one military buddy to come forward and say what a "swell guy" he seemed?

NO ONE.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #215
223. LOL! Kind of like Bush's "stint" in the Alabama Guard! n/t
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #215
259. the most bizarre thing
about this whole thing is no one has come foward to acknowledge knowing him or giving him any credibility, whether it be teaching or the military. Surely not everyone can be embarrassed by him :shrug:
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
185. Their is a Black Helicopter flying above my house!
Just kidding
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #185
187. LOL, they are yellow here in Canada!
*
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kk897 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
189. an essential link:
http://www.propagandamatrix.com/globalist_sex_trade.htm...

this has lots of info about the general subject. Can't verify how true the stuff is, but, you know...I can say that about lots of things.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
190. I've been interviewing a survivor of mind control, Kathleen Sullivan,
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 11:04 AM by Minstrel Boy
for my blog, and I've posted the first part here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

A couple of questions that may have bearing on this stuff:

Have you had any contact, either as an alter or as a survivor, with perpetrators or victims of the "Franklin Cover-Up"?

I need to mention several things, before I answer this set of questions. First, I still have a lot of memory gaps and may never remember everywhere Ive been, and everyone Ive met. Second, a lot of the people who I met used aliases. Third, there are people mentioned in the book who it is not in my best interest to name; therefore, I will share information without giving their names. Fourth, there are some persons mentioned in the book who I will never name as individuals from my past. Unfortunately, after they die, they are often sainted. Its a no-win situation for me to name them, alive or dead. Fifth, I did not live in Nebraska. I lived in Pennsylvania, then Maryland, then metro Atlanta, Georgia, with a 3-year stint in Chicago. Therefore, I probably never had a reason to meet the Nebraska locals. Finally, I need to mention that I will not go into further details beyond what I share below. Now for my answers:

1. One of my black op handlers was a PsyOps expert/lawsuit-happy Satanist/flaming pedophile mentioned in the book. That person later participated in revictimizing and terrorizing me during a group assault in 1997, after I had gone public during an interview as part of the CKLN radio series on mind control.

2. Although I have no memory of ever going to Boys Town, my maternal grandfather, who claimed to be OSS/CIA and was instrumental in involving me as a child in MKULTRA and beyond, took his annual vacations at Boys Town and often sent donations to them. I always thought it was strange that he went there for vacation; and I especially thought it strange that he sent them money, given that he was a very stingy and selfish man. Knowing what I know now, it makes sense - he was a pedophile.

3. A certain former, very high-ranking politician who also was connected in the past to the CIA was one of my primary owners. I performed a number of illegal activities for him, including assassinations. I also unfortunately couriered children, by air, to D.C. so that he could have at them. The children were instructed to call me Aunt. That politician was also a flaming pedophile and probably still is. It is definitely not in my best interest to publicly name him during this current political climate. Although he now keeps a lower profile, I still consider him to be an extremely dangerous.

4. I met and had some dealings with two former CIA Directors mentioned in the book. One Director was total pond scum. An especially secretive pedophile, he personally gave me as a butterfly for #3s collection when I was an older teenager (this was probably an allusion to the code name for their mind-control slavery operation, Project Monarch) The other Director was refreshingly honest and I sincerely admired him. Although he knew what was going on, but never seemed happy about it. Unfortunately, he was later terminated.

5. The CIA goes without saying. Read my book for more information.

6. I was introduced to another very high-ranking politician who was mentioned in the book, albeit not as a perpetrator. The person who presented my free services to that man, who had just entered office, was a very corrupt, former high-ranking politician. The potential recipient had the moral rectitude to reject my services as a free assassin, but appeared to be compromised later by another sent-in slave whose training was more to his tastes.

7. My father, who was my primary mental programmer and tormentor, was big into the teachings and practices of Aleister Crowley. Dad incorporated them into his extremely gory, murderous occult rituals particularly in the 60s.

8. The George Town Club sounds VERY familiar I was used at least one time in a similar building in the D.C. area that was used for the purposes mentioned in the book, to compromise and blackmail D.C. politicians. (Although my primary training was in black ops, I also had alter-states that were trained and used from childhood on - to sexually service both males and females.)

9. I was exposed to a NSC staff member mentioned in the book. I knew him as a dangerous, totally sociopathic covert operative who definitely had no concern for human life and enjoyed raping female slaves in brutal ways. For that reason, I am amused by his altered public persona as a moral right-wing hero and political commentator.


You mention you heard George HW Bush referred to as the "webmeister." Can you tell me what you think that might mean? Did you hear his name in other contexts?

First of all, one of CIA insiders code-names for the Agency was The Web. Other Directors may have also been dubbed webmeister, but I only remember Bush Sr. being called it by CIA employees who were in the loop. There seemed to be several reasons why he was given the name:

1. The inclusion of the word meister (as opposed to master) alluded to his fathers business connections to Hitler, and the Directors own alleged Aryan leanings.

2. I was told that Bush Sr. was unusually adept at using the Agencys resources the threads and links of the web to further his personal goals. This included his making connections with many influential people, and utilizing information, that he would not have otherwise had access to. (My suspicion is that he has continued to home this particular skill since he left the CIA.) He seemed to be especially respected for this skill because he did it quietly and without fanfare, which continues to be one of his trademarks.

3. They also called him the webmeister because he was the head of the Web.

4. Individuals who were skilled in hypnotic mind control and mental programming were given the honorary title of master. For this reason, he was considered a master on more than one level.
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OBrien Donating Member (243 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #190
247. William Colby "terminated" CIA director
That is probably who she is refering to. In 1996 he was found dead after midnight canoeing??
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
194. Has anyone mentioned the kidnapping and murder Danny Joe Eberle?
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 12:03 PM by qanda
Danny, 13, was last seen alive on his paper route in Bellevue, Nebraska, early in the morning of September 18, 1983. His bicycle and newspapers were found inside the gate at the fourth house on his route, but Danny was gone. On September 21, his body was found in a roadside ditch. He was partially nude and had been tied at the ankles, bitten, and stabbed several times.

Serial killer John J. Joubert was arrested in January 1984 and confessed to killing Danny and another local boy, Christopher Walden. Forensic evidence also linked him to the 1982 murder of Richard Stetson in Joubert's hometown of Portland, Maine. He was sentenced to life for Richard's murder and death for the murders of Danny and Christopher, and was executed on July 17, 1996.

Don't know why I'm mentioning it, but it certainly is strange that it happened just a year after Johnny Gosch was kidnapped in a neighboring state.

On Edit: http://www.free-webspace.biz/thevictims/eberle_danny.ht...

Also: I did note the last name. Does anyone know anything about any Eberles in Nebraska?
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kk897 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #194
195. ummmm.... "Eberle"?!
of the Nebraska clan of Eberles? Anyone else thinking what I'm thinking?
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #194
197. Eberle???? OMG.
Someone tell me THIS IS ALL A COINCIDENCE!
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nonny Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #194
199. Eberle? Where have I heard THAT name?
Talon news........ Bruce Eberle.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #199
299. Talon/GOPUSA is Bobby Eberle. Bruce Eberle is
some other republican bigwig. ("direct mail guru", whateve that means)
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #199
328. This cries out for a picture to be produced!
anyone got one?
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
198. This isn't anything new is it? Right from Free Republic
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a396facc72f4d.htm

Thanks for the post. Disturbing material, but should be more widely reported.

One criticism: someone needs to check all the dates in the story. There are errors (such as 1983 rather than 1993?) that may cause confusion.

Here's an excerpt from Part IV, from a statement by former Larry King associate/photographer Rusty Nelson, that some Rs around here won't like:


"But on the grand scale was Mr. King's close ties with the national Republican party. I always wondered who all he had to blackmail and pull strings with so he could make his dream come true of singing the National Anthem to open the 1988 National Republican Convention...
That's right, he did. Partly a great deal of this was due to some extremely large amounts of money diverted from Franklin to the campaign war chest and more so the special invite sex and drug parties at King's home on Embassy Row in Washington, D.C. often after a normal party to serve as cover.

It was shocking to see who would show up behind closed doors afterwords to fulfill their fantasies and desires. It went all the way to the top! Regan , Bush, and yes, even hopeful Wannabe Baby Bush. The Secret Service would even go so far as to sweep and secure the house for them.
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Bethany Rockafella Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
202. Is it true that Gannon plan to write a book?
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 12:08 PM by Bethany Rockafella
And if he does, will there be pictures? ;-)
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nonny Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
205. Photoshopped pics of Johnny Gosch
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 12:32 PM by nonny
These are 2 pictures that were age-enhanced. I just removed the hair.
Since the original pictures had hair covering the ears, I think that these ears are NOT his real ears.

What do you think?

http://www.ncweb.com/~luke/%20http:/www.ncweb.com/~luke...

Still having trouble with posting pictures --- I guess you have to click on the link.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #205
206. I cannot view the images.
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 12:38 PM by merh
I tried but they are not there!
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #205
207. Photos won't come up
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idiosyncratic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #205
258. You have to upload the pictures to the server
The image properties state they are on the computer

file:///C:/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/john_gosch.JPG
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nonny Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #258
301. Finally got it!
See post 278 --- near the top of the thread.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
232. is there any way to get gannons military records..or even see
if he actually was in the marines???

would we need his s.s. number..or is there another way??

maybe he was no threat to * when in military..but once out he may have been doing blackmail...
and how about the auto company he suposedly worked for..did anyone see him did anyone know him.,.does he have friends??

there is so much we do not know about him..
and i have asked this over and over...gannon said on msm that his mother and brother have been harrassed..has anyone seen anything on any web site or internet group where his s.s. number was given out ..or did anyone have his mothers name..how would anyone know how to contact his mother to harrass her?? or his brother...
is that another lie??

who could have found his mother to harrass her??


if anyone knows let me know!
i was online the saturday night and sunday morn with the writer from american blog..i never saw him mention gannons mother or brother..and he was one of the first to break the story open..so who knew who gannons mother was or is..or his brother??

i think it was a ploy to use his mother to make gannon and his so called family look like victims..

fly
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #232
235. I have thought the "harrassment" claim was complete BS from the beginning.
I don't think ANY of us know who his family is. "Death threats"?? I seriously doubt it. It was an excuse for him to quit the scene.

Seems I've read most everything, and I have never seen his SS# posted. HOW whould any of us get his SS#??!!! What fool would post it? I call BS on that one, too.
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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #235
237. K I C K
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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #237
239. Another Kick
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #235
242. exactly!!
its talking points...its roves talking points!! they are setting gannon up..this * admin is setting this guy up.

be careful gannon..they are setting you up ..be very careful!

fly
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12345 Donating Member (267 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #242
244. I hear that a lot, and I wonder how?
What are they setting him up for?
Do you mean as a distraction, because it doesn't seem as though he can legally take the fall?
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justsomegirl Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #235
243. SS# was posted-
No, I think I recall it being posted by at least one blog; it was on a PDF related to the taxes that Guckert owes.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #232
238. Maybe the harassment is coming from the other side....
Gannon said that his family was being harassed, and everyone pushing the story was like... Huh? When? Who? Where?

Perhaps the harassment in his alternate world was coming from that world, from his own side to silence him and make him disappear before it went too far.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
246. Has anyone tried to get a picture from the grade school
that Johnny Gosch attended ??
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #246
250. I've tried to find out where Guckert attended Grade school, but can't
find anything.
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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #250
252. Faye. Can you start another Thread Wrinkle #3
People are placing info in throughout the thread and its getting harder for me to reload and go through it all. lol I am on dial-up.
thanks
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #252
261. No!!!!
it disrupts the flow.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #261
329. Agree! At least at this point in the thread
It takes away from the free flow of research and data that flows from a continuous thread of information.

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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #252
290. please dont then people have to go back and forth...no!! n/t
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
257. Was I involved in something like the Franklin Cover-Up?
(I also posted this in GenPol, but I thought I would post it in this relevant thread as well. I hope that's ok).

I'm relatively new to DU, and I feel selfish asking for some help on such a disturbing topic. However, my past issues with abuse have been so triggered by the recent DU Johnny Gosch/Franklin cover up discussions--I just felt compelled to throw out my situation and see if anyone can help.

So many of you have displayed amazing insight, sensitivity and wisdom into the Gosch/Franklin/Gannon situation. I am looking for suggestions about where I can turn--to find out what happened to me.

(If anyone has sexual abuse in their past, or if you're easily triggered by discussions of sexual abuse--this post may not be an easy read).

I am a survivor of sexual abuse. I'm highly functional and I have an amazing support system and a great therapist. He's diagnosed me with acute PTSD due to childhood trauma. I don't want pity. I feel really strong and lucky to have everything I do today. I consider myself a fortunate person.

Although I don't know exactly what happened to me, I have been slowly putting together the puzzle pieces since I entered therapy 4 years ago. I do know these things:

--I have always remembered my picture being taken--having sex with adults and with other children.
--I remember screaming at my father, "I don't want to do this anymore!" and crying I "don't like those people." He left me crying on the floor, returned to my room and said, "Do you want mommy and daddy to go to jail? Is that what you want? I can't get you out. Stop crying or we will go to jail." I was 8 when this happened.
--My father's friend, who was a police officer--was heavily involved in this. He was a "photographer" and he had lots of photographic equipment. I vaguely remember him taking the pictures. I distinctly remember asking him one time, "Why is this happening to me?" He replied, "We needed a cute, brunette little girl."
--I have flashbacks of having sex with the police officers oldest son, and pictures being taken. In my memories there are always many people, and lots of equipment in the room.
--I remember being taken from my bedroom, in the middle of the night. I vaguely remember being sexual with older men, but I don't know who.
--I was hospitalized 10 times, before the age of 12, for acute bladder infections that required overnight stays. Through the years, I've asked my mother, why I was hospitalized and she said, "Because your bladder was too small and it had to be stretched." I obtained my hospital records, which clearly stated that my bladder was of normal size, but they found damage to my urethra (a sign of sexual abuse).
--I remember acting out sexually with younger children--and using very vulgar sexual language. When I acted out with these children, I would say, "Ok, now you're supposed to do this...then I'm supposed to do this." One of the children, with which these things happened, told me that I said, <<<<warning trigger>>>> "I think you're supposed to put yourself in my mouth, until you go to the bathroom or something." Clearly, I learned this somewhere, but have barely any recollection of where I learned it.
--I have flashbacks of being injected with needles--by the policeman involved--and being sedated.
--I have serious memory blocks related to a traumatic incident, in which I was being screamed at for "telling." I was severely beaten, psychologically terrorized and I was thrown in a landfill and told I would be picked up with the garbage after I died. I always knew I was thrown in a landfill, but didn't know why. My foot hurt, sitting in the garbage--because I had stitches in it from stepping on a piece of glass a week prior. I checked with the hospital ER, where I received the stitches--to see if I came in with additional damage to my food--after the stitches were initially sewn in. They said they had no record of me even getting stitches and no ER record for me at all. I know I had stitches. It's been discussed in our family through the years, and I still have the scar. I called my former pediatrician's office to obtain records. I was informed there were no records because my records were housed in a warehouse that had been burned to the ground in the mid 1970's. I contacted my childhood urologist--the one who treated me for the bladder infections. He died in a car accident three years ago.
--I demonstrated serious signs of trauma as a child. I wet the bed until the day I left home, at age 18. I woke up every morning, panicked. All of this stuff stopped, the day I left home for college.

<<<triggers in this paragraph>>>
Two years ago, I confronted my father and asked him what in the heck happened to me. He denied any knowledge of anything. I accused him of sexually abusing me and he replied, "That's not MY style. Not MY style at all." I replied, "Dad, I remember having a penis in my mouth when I was a little girl and he replied, "Are you sure it was mine." Clearly, he has knowledge of something happening to me (since when is sex with a child "a style" and his "are you sure it was mine" remark indicates that he knew someone was abusing me).

Also, I was an adopted child. I don't know my birth parents. There are some odd things--that could be misunderstanding on my part. However, there are no pictures of me when I was an infant. I asked my mother about this (and maybe they do exist) and she snapped back, "Well! They exist!" I have never seen pictures of me when I was brought home from the hospital or when they first got me. That seems strange. Wouldn't you mark that significant occasion with a picture or something?

As far as my adoption, it was "handled through an attorney." When I asked my mother about contacting the attorney or doctor who delivered me for information, my mother said they were both dead. I thought it was strange that my adoption was through an attorney--but my sister was adopted through Catholic Charities. I have no knowledge of how this adoption was arranged. I noticed on my adoption papers that my birth date is a day off from the date on my birth certificate. Maybe it's an honest mistake. I don't know. The adoption papers are typed on crinkly, transparent paper. They are not on letterhead or anything.

During the past three years, I've attempted to find answers. After a year of therapy, I felt strong enough to contact law enforcement. I mainly wondered if anyone suspected my father or the cop of anything. I was hoping I might find that I wasn't the only survivor out there. I called our local US Postal Inspector's office--because I heard they handled child pornography issues. The Postal Inspector investigator asked me to share a bit of my story. I shared most of what I remembered and he asked if he could interview me in my home and get childhood pictures of me. He said he might recognize me, because they deal with images of many children who have been abused in the past. I agreed and he interviewed me. He was kind and very professional. I gave him pictures. He wanted me to name names, and even though I was scared to death--I agreed and I gave him my father's name and the name of the police officer.

Three weeks went by. I called back the investigator back and thanked him for listening and for being helpful. I asked him if he could let me know if everything was ok--because I was having a very rough time after "telling." A lot of fear was kicking in. I didn't hear anything back. I called back once a month for several months, and politely asked if he would call me. I never heard back from him again. I felt as if I had done something wrong by reporting.

I also ended up at our local police department one day, because I was feeling incredibly vulnerable and frightened. I drove there and just sat in the parking lot--I guess, to feel safe. An officer saw me crying and I agreed to go inside. I told him my entire story and he was absolutely amazing. He said he understood trauma and how it affects children and he said he believed me. I didn't tell him my name, but he referred me to the head of the childhood sex crimes unit in his dept. I called and the dept head told me there was nothing they could do. He said my story, although tragic, wasn't even enough to get a search warrant on the police officer who abused me. Another dead end. (Also, I don't know if this is important, but the Police Dept is the same one that Johnny Gosch's mom had so much trouble with). I live in the same city that JG is from.

Finally, several months ago, I called the police dept in my childhood hometown; the dept where the officer who molested me, worked. I spoke with another top-notch officer who urged me to name names. I told him I would consider it, but I was grappling with panic attacks and other PTSD symptoms and I wasn't sure I was ready. He validated my experience and he said, "You are relaying exactly what survivors of child porn/child sex rings experience--right down to the threats your father used." I told this cop I wanted to go outside the system and find out what happened to me--because I didn't want the abusive cop to know I was digging around. I told him I wanted to contact people who had been convicted of looking at child porn--and show them my childhood pictures to see if anyone recognized me. The officer urged me not to do that. He said, "You have many missing memories and they're missing for a reason. If you go digging around in this seedy, awful underworld--you may be unprepared for what you find and I caution you." I trusted this officer and I was just about to give up named. All of a sudden, I felt like someone was choking me. I could barely breath. I couldn't speak and I told the officer I had a cough and I had to go. I felt like I was going to die. I was panicked and I felt as if someone had their hands around my neck. I looked in the mirror and I had a bloody nose and I had broken out in hives.

I feel as if I don't know where to turn. I'm trapped between fear of telling and wanting to find out what in the heck happened to me. My father will not divulge info. After I confronted him, he sought guidance from his priest (he's a staunch Catholic). My father positioned himself as the victim. A family member told me that my father moped around the house for days after I confronted him, "She's ruined my life. I'm so depressed." Apparently he had no regard for me, but a great deal for himself. The priest advised my father, "Sometimes you just have to let people go."

Never mind, that my father had an affair with a 16-year old employee of his--when he was 35--or that my mother had a nervous breakdown when I was 18 (and she has no recollection of why) or that my siblings show obvious signs of trauma. One sister has bulimia so severe, that all teeth had to be pulled. My parents do and say nothing about it. Another sibling made a suicide attempt. The police officer's children are all drug addicted or alcoholics. One of them has an eating disorder and a few have been in jail. I want to contact them, but I'm scared.

I'm sorry this is so incredibly long. It's difficult to know what--and what not--to say. I feel very compelled to find out answers.

I just want to know what happened to me. I'm not saying I was involved in the Franklin Cover-Up--but maybe the abuse I endured mirrors many of the ritualistic and sadistic methods used by those who perpetrated the Franklin Cover Up.

Does anyone have any ideas on where I go to find out what happened to me?

Thank you for reading--if anyone got this far. I appreciate any input or suggestions. Please don't worry about me. I know this all sounds awful, and it was. However, I'm very strong and they did not break me. What happened is in the past and I have a wonderful life. My therapist says that only the strongest move on to deal with and process the pain, and I firmly believe that.

Thanks, everyone.


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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #257
268. Oh my...
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 04:38 PM by qanda
I have no words. I'm so sorry for all that you went through. Do you think you were abducted? Have you checked the missing and exploited children database to see if you can find any info? I don't have any advice, but I hope we can help you get to the bottom of what happened.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #268
282. I did check...
...the Center for Missing and Exploited Kids.

There's a site where you can input names. I searched under my given name and my adopted name. No luck.

It's a good suggestion though.

I don't know if I was abducted. It feels shady, but I could be reacting to all of the shady stuff that went on. It's difficult to process the notion that a couple would go out of their way to adopt a child--then do these things. It's surreal.

Thanks for your support. :)
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #282
288. Look at the Dollar couple in Florida.
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kittenpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #257
274. Have you talked to your siblings to see if they have had
similiar experiences? you must be very strong to have gotten this far. I'm glad you have people you can talk with & thanks for trusting us enough to share this too.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #274
279. Thank you...
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 04:53 PM by TwoSparkles
After confronting my father, my mother called up my sisters and asked them if my father sexually abused them. My brother told me that they didn't answer right away and weren't very forthcoming about a definite "yes" or "no."

My other sister said she has no memory of her childhood. Not one memory before the age of 12. My brother said he has no memory of abuse.

All of them show severe signs of trauma.

Unfortunately, I haven't spoken to my sisters since I confronted. My brother and I remain close and he's made it clear that he believes me.

My father has a pretty firm grip on everyone in the household. I am the enemy now. I imagine they feel pressure not to communicate with me.

Thanks for your kinds words. :)
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #257
276. I hate the people that did this to you
HATE THEM! God I am so sorry. :cry: I know how hard it is. The feelings of shame dispair...that somehow it is your fault. Well listen to me...You are strong and far better than these people. I am glad you steped into these threads. Your contribution is welcomed!

Andy
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #276
289. Thanks Andy...
...you are very sensitive and kind.

Yes, the shame and despair is very real. I think I buried a great deal of the shame--because so much of it is centered around my participation in this stuff. I know what I was like as a child--I was extremely outgoing and fearless. I probably thought it was a game and I sense that I complied to keep myself safe. I imagine there's a lot of shame and guilt...and I constantly have to remind myself that I didn't ask for this. I may have adapted in ways that looked compliant--but I did that to survive.

Also--I do sense that I am stronger than these thugs. I sense their own damage. I think that's why I "told" on them. I understood, even as a child, that something wasn't right.

These people are victims who never got help. They're the weakest of the weak--attempting to obtain power from helpless children.

Again, thanks Andy.
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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #289
294. My thoughts are with you TwoSparkles
Also--I do sense that I am stronger than these thugs. I sense their own damage. I think that's why I "told" on them. I understood, even as a child, that something wasn't right.

These people are victims who never got help. They're the weakest of the weak--attempting to obtain power from helpless children.


Those statements right there are the reason you survive and even thrive ! You are strong, you are stronger by far than the ones who tried to destroy you.
I was a child of sexual and physical abuse too not to the terrible extremes put onto you though. Weak or Tough that had to be my choice. :hug:
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #257
284. I need to give you a hug.
:hug: Your story breaks my heart. No child should ever have to go through what you have been through.

Your story sounds like you could have been a part of the Franklin Case.

Since the police dept. you went to is the same one that handled the Gosch investigation, I would say they are not going to help you. Some of them were probably involved in the Franklin cover up. Have you thought about maybe contacting Mrs. Gosch? She has many, many connections to people who may be able to help you. Maybe she could give you some names of people she trusts?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #257
285. Check with Mrs. Gosch
That is who I would contact. She may know who it is you can talk to and/or groups that can help you.

:hug: I am saying prayers for you. :hug:
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nonny Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #257
298. Thank you for trusting us with this horrific time of you life
You have survived, and I can only imagine that better days are ahead. Especially once you are on your own, and move out of your father's house.
Since you are trying to remember --- I think it will come back to you only a little at a time.
TwoSparkles, what a beautiful name. Bless you and I hope you can find the answers you seek about your past.

:grouphug:
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #257
304. "Are you sure it was mine?" "not my style"
sickening reactions.

eerily similar to my mother's reaction when I told her I had been abused by her father.

no emotional reaction whatsoever.

just "well you are lucky he didn't rape you."

(i'm not sure he didn't, was probably also sedated, and have been told by a doctor that I am scarred internally.)

It's great that you are having the courage to come forward and try to get justice. My perp is dead, but I have awful flashbacks that I can't explain, and where I don't know where I am.

Peace.
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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #257
316. Re: your adoption
Have you checked in the District Clerk's office of the county where you were adopted? If there really was an adoption through an attorney, there should have been paperwork filed in district court. States differ on what kind of information they will release, but you should at least be able to find out if there was a suit and what the case number is. I worked in a county records office and that was all the information we could release. The person seeking their adoptive parents would then have to file a petition with a district judge, asking that their case be unsealed. (This was in TX).

My thoughts are with you. I hope that you will find all the answers you need and that your spirit will heal completely.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #257
318. Here are a couple of ideas for where you can turn:
North American Freedom Foundation (NAFF)
"Advocating for U.S. and Canadian victims and survivors of mind control, torture, slavery, and related terror, through education and remembrance"
http://naffoundation.org /
There is an emergency contact number listed. This organization was founded by Kathleen Sullivan, a survivor of ritual abuse, whom I interview on my blog today. It may help as well for you to look at her personal site: http://www.kathleen-sullivan.com

Persons against Ritual Abuse-Torture
http://www.ritualabusetorture.org /
We are speaking the unspeakable; because, without reality there is no truth, and without truth how can there be healing?

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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #257
330. Your recollections are heartwrenching, your strength awesome...
I can only give a virtual :grouphug: for your pain and a :yourock: for your strength.
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libertypirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
287. Anyone get anywhere with "CAPITOL CITY ESCORTS"
CAPITOL CITY ESCORTS
WASHINGTON, DC 20001
(202) 589-1777

Long known to be a CIA front company. Don't ask how I know...They apparently have been involved with more than just escorts. I am doing some searches now....anyone want to jump in...feel free. I have a huntch there is something here...can't say what. Just that there is. I was told a long time ago about Capitol City Escorts. We need to milk this one...pun/no pun intended.


Andy

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #287
293. Yes...apparently they
sell real estate too.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
310. RAW STORY:FLASH: DEMOCRATIC SENATE LEADERSHIP JOINS PUSH FOR INQUIRY ....
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 06:02 PM by understandinglife
...INTO GANNON AFFAIR; WHIP SENATOR DURBIN CIRCULATING LETTER CALLING ON OTHER SENATORS TO SIGN ON: DEVELOPING HARD...


TBO;24/7
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #310
312. Yeah, but the report is 'developing'... come knock me up when it's there!
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #312
317. IT'S UP NOW!
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Metatron Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
314. Here is an interesting connection. Don't know what it means, if anything.
We all know that Gannon/Guckert received his "journalistic" training from the Leadership Institute. In the Washington Times article about the D.C. call-boys scandal (6/30/89), Morton Blackwell (president of the Leadership Institute) is quoted in the article:
'"I had no idea such stuff was going on," said Morton Blackwell, president of The Leadership Institute, which gives political training to young Republicans.

"I think it is time to sit down and write a paper for young conservatives who are washed over by all of this propaganda saying some people are naturally, genetically irresistably inclined to this kind of (homosexual) behavior," Mr. Blackwell said.

"We Republicans stand for traditional values and cannot continue to stand if we fall significantly away from them," he said.'

Don't shoot me because this link is from FR - they scanned in the Washington Times articles and it was just easier for me to read the whole sordid series at this link from the previous DU thread on the matter. http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a388cd49f5ce8.htm

Blackwell's comment about "traditional" values did amuse me in relation to his training Guckert, though.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #314
323. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Cygnusx1 Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #323
326. I do believe I am going insane...
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
320. Where's Larry King now? Because I just learned
a Larry King is now executive editor of the Omaha World-Herald:
http://www.nebraskaprsa.org/modules.php?name=News&file=...

FYI, Harold Andersen, the former publisher, was a close associate of King, and was named in the Franklin Cover-Up, and the paper waged a character assassination campaign against John DeCamp.
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
324. photoshop work with pics at hand...
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 07:46 PM by TrustingDog


can't remember who did the hair thing on the left pic, but seeing as this thread is so long I won't go back and look, but thank you!

I used that one, flopped it, scaled and rotated all to approx same and contrasted, etc to get a more 'even' colour between the all.

all the eyes are on the same horizontal.
The eyes and nose seem to be quite similar, imo.

on edit:
I'm either locked or suspended from village photo, so they say. gak!
This worries me, cuz the only things I put up there are political stuff not very flattering to the admin. paranoia, will destroya!

can we PM .jpgs attachments here?
how do I do this?
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #324
325. your pic doesn't show up
and the direct link to it says your account is locked or suspended :( damn village photos!! they suck!!! try http://photobucket.com ?
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idiosyncratic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
327. A kick, and a request for a new thread. I'm on SLOOOOW dial up . . .
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 07:50 PM by idiosyncratic
:cry:
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ncrainbowgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
331. Locking- and a link to part 3 of the Gannongate story thread
This thread has gotten WAY too long!
Feel free to continue the conversation over here!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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