"The antichrist is in the world now. He has just not been revealed."

[Skidmore]

This was a statement made by a caller on C-SPAN this morning. Very strident woman who held that Israel is God's chosen people and that anyone who messes with Israel messes with God.

The statement she made so assuredly about the antichrist is chilling. If this is representative of the current thinking among the fundamentalist, then these people are no longer invested in this world. I grew up in a fundamentalist church but left it many years ago. The end times were always discussed back the as something cloaked in mystery and far in the future.

Did anyone else hear that caller?

[trotsky]

1. What else is new.

Followers have felt the anti-christ "here now" for hundreds of years. It's just a tool to keep the rapturists in line.

[DoYouEverWonder]

She's in for a big surprise

when she finds out that it's George Bush who is the anti-christ and that she blew it.

[tsuki]

13. I'm looking at Rove. Bush just ain't that smart.

:tinfoilhat:

[bullimiami]

18. i dont recall anywhere where it says an antichrist must be smart.

[DoYouEverWonder]

22. According to Molly Ivans

Shrub and Rove are twins. They are intellectual equals.

Don't let the snear and the stutter fool you.

[DoYouEverWonder]

2. Oops dupe

[hippiechick]

3. Oh yes he has ....

http://www.geocities.com/trebor_92627/Bush.htm


:hippie:

[Hubert Flottz]

14. Wow!

No wonder the voting machines didn't work! Does the Bible mention Diebold? Or is it Die Bold!

:hippie:

[Mandate My Ass]

39. LOL

My mother said he has too, and she's not even a fundie.

[lil-petunia]

4. his name is George W. Bush.

[goddess40]

5. He's in the White House

Although someone has suggested that the like of Robertson has convinced * that he had to attack Iraq to fulfill some biblical nonsense. I don't have a link but it was a rumor that someone passed on to be.

[ObaMania]

6. Yeah.

What an f-ing freak!

[TexasBushwhacker]

7. Some think Bush is the anti-christ

I'm not into all that stuff, but there seems to be some pretty compelling evidence.

[Burma Jones]

8. I think he's waiting for the next Super Bowl Halftime Show

If there's any lesson to be learned through the course of human history, it's that greed is our God. All these literalist Christians, and Muslims and Jews need to realize that their texts are NOT HISTORY BOOKS, they're a lot deeper than that.

[Benhurst]

9. Let me guess ... hmmm... Oh, I know! George Walker Bush. n/t

:bounce:

[peach720]

10. The popular theory is that the Anti-Christ..;.

will be the next Pope!!!
I am a recovering British Fundie and I know that they believe that the
Anti-Christ rise to power in Italy and that the EU is bad because it is set up for the end times. Though I have never found this in Revelations personally.
But I think that Dubya is just as likely to be it, the charactaristic of the Anti-Christ is that he will fool people into following him, will be convincing!!!!

[wicket]

11. The antichrist is Bush

:evilgrin:

[Mend]

12. Why Not Cheney?

Is the anti-christ supposed to be stupid....then I guess bush. If not, then cheney.

[Hubert Flottz]

20. Looks like he's even fooled himself!

Now that's what I call being able to fool All the people!

[fishwax]

15. Fundamentalist have always felt that way

Perhaps not all of them, and I can't speak to either the caller or to the sense you had as a child that the end times were far away, but I can say that in the 1950s through the 80s, the end times and anti-christ were most certainly linked with the soviet union, and the rapture was most certainly imminent. I've heard rebroadcasts on christian radio within the last two years of preachers speaking to their flocks during the 80s talking about all the signs that we're living in the end times. Historical context made it clear that the lecture was at least 20 years old.

And it isn't just in the last 50 years, either. It's basically a characteristic trait of American religious fundamentalism and revival since the first wave of revivalist sentiment in the early 1800s. Churches like the Seventh Day Adventist were founded with the belief that the end of the world was imminent, as was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Latter days because it was almost over -- the early mormons certainly believed they would be the last generation). Similar end times sentiments in the 1980s and 1910s/20s (when Mencken said you couldn't throw an egg out the window of the train without hitting a fundamentalist).

Anyway, comments like the caller's can be jarring, but her sentiment isn't really new. They've been believing it for years, and they'll probably still be believing it in 100 years.

[qazplm]

29. its not just an American phenomenon

when the clock ticked over to 1000 many european Christians thought it was going to be the start of Armageddon.

And in 3000, we will see the same thing.

well, not exactly "we" ;), well maybe me, I was planning on living forever personally.

[Dufaeth]

16. 4 more years:

"rev 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

only 3.5, maybe he'll be impeached?

[fidgeting wildly]

17. Fundies are so unoriginal.

They've been saying we're in the end times for 2,000 years now.

[GaYellowDawg]

19. I've always found this the height of irony.

The Bible specifically states of the antichrist that "no man shall know the hour of his coming." Anyone who states that the antichrist is here, or makes any predictions, is biblically illiterate.

I get really sick of this as a Christian. Jesus didn't mention any of this. If all of these people would read the gospels more instead of burrowing into LaHaye's incredibly idiotic books, perhaps they'd spend more time worrying about how to help others out instead of the end of the world.

[AllyCat]

21. Oh she means Shrub?

Yeah, us Kerry (and other) voters have known that for some time now.

[Killarney]

23. The Left Behind books have all the evangelicals

foaming at the mouth thinking the end times are here.

[jdj]

30. "toe to toe, moving very slow..."

"Toe to toe
Dancing very slow
Barely breathing
Almost comatose
Wall to wall
People hypnotised
And they're stepping lightly
Hang each night in Rapture

Back to back
Sacrailiac
Spineless movement
And a wild attack

Face to face
Sadly solitude
And it's finger popping
Twenty-four hour shopping in Rapture

Fab Five Freddie told me everybody's high
DJ's spinnin' are savin' my mind
Flash is fast, Flash is cool
Francois sez fas, Flashe' no do
And you don't stop, sure shot
Go out to the parking lot
And you get in your car and you drive real far
And you drive all night and then you see a light
And it comes right down and lands on the ground
And out comes a man from Mars
And you try to run but he's got a gun
And he shoots you dead and he eats your head
And then you're in the man from Mars
You go out at night, eatin' cars
You eat Cadillacs, Lincolns too
Mercurys and Subarus
And you don't stop, you keep on eatin' cars
Then, when there's no more cars
You go out at night and eat up bars where the people meet
Face to face, dance cheek to cheek
One to one, man to man
Dance toe to toe
Don't move to slow, 'cause the man from Mars
Is through with cars, he's eatin' bars
Yeah, wall to wall, door to door, hall to hall
He's gonna eat 'em all
Rapture, be pure
Take a tour, through the sewer
Don't strain your brain, paint a train
You'll be singin' in the rain
I said don't stop, do punk rock

Well now you see what you wanna be
Just have your party on TV
'Cause the man from Mars won't eat up bars when the TV's on
And now he's gone back up to space
Where he won't have a hassle with the human race
And you hip-hop, and you don't stop
Just blast off, sure shot
'Cause the man from Mars stopped eatin' cars and eatin' bars
And now he only eats guitars, get up!"

the antichrist doesn't come til after the rapture.

[Ravenseye]

24. They've thought he was here for about two thousand years.

You know some scholars say that originally the apostles thought that Jesus would have his second coming IN THEIR LIFETIMES.

Basically since Christianity got off the ground, literally with Jesus' cruxifiction, they've been what we now term a 'milenial cult'. Most people these days I dont' think actually beleive that crap, but there are always enough vocal nutjobs in the world, even if they have to wear a 'the world is ending' sign and walk through Times Square ringing a bell.

[RedCloud]

25. Bush Sr. has 665 stamped on back of head!.

I am surprised this wasn't brought up. It could be Jeb though or a whole host of 'em, like a seven headed hydra.

Oh Mighty Hercules, avenge us in the hour of our need. Smash the evil usurper of your four titles of adoration:

Prince of Peace
Son of Man
The Good Shepherd
The Saviour

[jdj]

31. lol n/t

[flakey_foont]

26. How many Anti-Christs are there supposed to be?

Johnny Rotten? Aleister Crowley? Marilyn Manson? Adolph Hitler? Anton LaVey? Vince McMahon? the Taco Belle talking dog? ....

[Tesibria]

27. The AntiChrist - Short Primer

Most people who believe in the pre-Tribulation Rapture believe that the AntiChrist HAS to be in the world now, but not yet revealed.

(PREFACE: Everything I say below is what at least MANY Fundamentalist Churches (e.g., Assembly of God, etc.) believe. I do not believe it. But it's easier to write as a "believer.")

The AntiChrist will be Jewish, and will be embraced by the Jews as the Christ - the promised one. They did not accept the "real" Christ, because he didn't fit the mold of the Christ King they expected as foretold in the Old Testament. They will accept this AntiChrist. See, e.g., http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Antichrist/anti_02.htm for more information. (Note: There are those who don't agree with this particular view, but they have little Biblical basis to back this up. For an interesting (??) list of "possible" antichrists (which include Barney the Dinosaur and Bill Clinton, see http://raptureready.com/rr-antichrist.html; for an argument that Bush is the AntiChrist, see http://www.geocities.com/trebor_92627/Bush.htm)

Note: That the AntiChrist will be Jewish explains in part the "love/hate" relationship that the Fundamentalists have with Jews. The Fundies HAVE to protect Israel at all costs -- but they know that the Jews are unbelievers, and that the AntiChrist will be a Jew. Therefore, any Jew who rises to power is suspect - because he could be the AntiChrist. They "love" the country -- but are afraid of its people.

The AntiChrist will be rich and powerful and will bring peace and prosperity to Israel and to the world - for a short time. (For the pre-tribulation Rapture folks, he will suddenly appear on the world stage right after the Rapture.) His appearance on the world stage will bring tremendous change - all for the good - both for Israel and for the rest of the world - for 3 1/2 years. The World will love and worship him. Then he'll turn mean, and all the bad Tribulation stuff will start.

Because it is so clear that we are in the End Times, it is highly likely that the AntiChrist is alive today and is probably an adult by now, and is probably already in politics on a world-wide level. That is the only way that he will be ready to step into the spotlight when the Rapture takes place - which could happen at any time.


~Tesibria
-----------------------
www.democracyiscoming.com
www.cafepress.com/tesibria (T-shirts, etc. - "Proud Member of Moral Minority"-"Hitler had a mandate"-What would Jefferson Think-Count the Votes-Great Quotes-much more)

[H2O Man]

28. The Anti-Christ

(1) is not something that occures only once in human history;
The anti-Christ occures with the fall of every empire.

(2) the anti-Christ and the beast are not individual; it is a collective.

(3) the anti-Christ is not consciously evil; it is the unconscious negative that creates a collective cruelty.

(4) the Bush administration is an "anti-Christ" in the most literal sense; the woman caller does not recognize Jesus, who is the least among us in every hamlet, town, and city in America. Jesus is the unwed mother, the abused child, and the teen-ager in jail.

[Jackie97]

32. These people scare me.

Give fundamentalist Christianity a chance, and it can be as dangerous as fundamentalist Islam. The history of Christianity proves that to be so.

Unfortunately, all churches claim the end of time is coming. Wouldn't it be funny as heck if Jesus did return, take us liberals, and leave them behind? LOL.

[Sallyrat]

33. CLICK ON........bushistheantichrist.com n/t

[Hubert Flottz]

34. I found this yesterday !

THOMAS JEFFERSON ON CHRISTIANITY & RELIGION


Compiled by Jim Walker

snip>

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

Back in Jefferson's days he gave much thought to the very same things we are seeing today, as far as mixing church and state! I was blown away by these quotes!

[Unstuck In Time]

40. And yet the religionists will look you right in the eye and tell you...

... that the notion of "separation of church and state" is a myth invented by liberals, that the founders intended America to be a christian nation, etc. etc.

Keep your ears tuned for this meme of theirs. It shows up everywhere, from baptists and catholics alike, and is one of their strongest propaganda pieces today. They are re-writing Jefferson right out of our nation's history.

[Hubert Flottz]

41. Jefferson saw through people like Jerry and Pat!

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

Nazi Germany and Bush's America came to mind when I saw that!
*******

Thomas Jefferson could have been on topic here this morning!

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it(the Apocalypse), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

*********


The whole history of these books is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

I have thought the very same thing, since I was old enough to really think, on my own! How many rewrites of the Bible in the past 2,000 years? And each rewrite in a different language the meaning has to have been changed, at least a tiny bit! Pass a message down a line even in the same language and the message will change, at least a little bit!

[Unstuck In Time]

43. I think you may be on to something here. We're all asking ourselves lately

... what our message ought to be. Asking ourselves what we can DO, and feeling kind of powerless because there's so much that NEEDS to be done. It's hard to get a handle on it, hard to know where to begin.

Maybe you've got the handle right here: The writings of Thomas Jefferson. He wasn't a perfect man, by any means, but his brilliance shone when he wrote about what America ought to BE.

Let's educate the people we meet about Jefferson and his theories. Let's talk about our principles as the bedrock ideals that they are, traceable to the very beginning of our nation. When we make the liberal and progressive case, let's draw upon the ideas of Jefferson.

There are lots of great resources out there, including:
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/

:)

[rniel]

45. There's plans to change schoolbooks

to reflect this I'd bet.

[Hubert Flottz]

46. Bush is a mouse acting like a man!

Totally cosmetic!

His "Morals" are AWOL!

[Mizmoon]

35. The Low Down on Rapture

Here's the deal. I have read all of the "left behind" books and all of Hal Lindsey's stuff too. Here's what the average rapturist believes:

1) Christ was asked when we'd know the Endtimes were coming. He compared it to childbirth - that the "birthpangs" would come faster and faster in the form of volcanos, earthquakes, hurricanes, wars, etc.

2) The anti-Christ will be so crafty it will be hard for even the faithful to recognize him. I even read in one place where aliens could be the anti-christ. The drawings of them look like demons, we've been long prepared for them, they would bring promises of miracles, etc.

3) THE biggest sign of the anti-christ and The Beast (two different entities) is that one of them will be able to work miracles. Since Christ was crucified, no one else has had the legitimate power to work them. Only satan gives the power to work miracles now (there is a complicated reason for this that I don't feel like typing out).

4) THE biggest sign that the end is coming has to do with the Jew rebuilding the Temple. This would be problematic because the third holiest site in Islam, The Dome of the Rock, is right where the old temple was. It would have to be destroyed to rebuild the Jewish temple. And the Jews must be the ones to do it. The Army Corp of Engineers can't come in there or anything.

At some point, the Jews are supposed to allow the Anti-christ to come into the Temple and sit on God's throne. There they will worship him as God. And boy oh boy is Jesus gonna be pissed off over that.

When you read this stuff, it puts you into a trance - like you've been let in on a big secret, let into a big club. You KNOW it to be true. I feel all mystical just having related the story.

[AllyCat]

36. You will not know the hour of my return

Didn't Jesus also say that? Where the heck do they get this volcano crap?

[Mizmoon]

37. Yes, whenever someone goes too far

they are reminded that no one knows the hour - not even Jesus himself. Only God knows.

The twelve signs that must come to pass before the end are given as follows:


1) Many will come in the name of Christ and deceive many (Matt.24,5; Mark 13,6; Luke 21,8)

2) There will be wars and rumours of wars between nations and kingdoms (Matt.24, 6-7; Mark 13,7-8; Luke,21,9-10).

3) The first sorrows will be in the form of calamities: 'famines, pestilences and earthquakes in divers places', fearful sights and great signs from heaven (Matt.24,7-8; Mark, 13,8; Luke 21,11).

4) Orthodox Christians will be delivered up, killed and hated by all nations (Matt. 24,9; Mark 13, 9-11; Luke 21,12-15).

5) Everywhere men will hate and betray each other (Matt.24,10; Mark 13,12-13; Luke 21,16-17).

6) Many false prophets will appear and deceive many (Matt.24,11).

7) On account of abundant iniquity (evil deeds and unrepented sin), the love of many will grow cold. Only those who endure to the end will be saved (Matt.24,12-13; Mark 13,13; Luke 21,19).

8) The Gospel will be preached throughout the world 'for a witness unto all nations' (Matt.24,14; Mark 13,10).

9) After this Jews will become Orthodox Christians (Romans 11,25-28).

10) Preparations will be made for the coming of Antichrist, called the son of perdition and the beast. Preceded by false prophets and false signs and wonders, Antichrist will be a master of illusion, of 'shock and awe', taking away people's freedom, but making them think that they have been freed. He will persecute the true servants of Christ with rage and fury. The Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt for him to be enthroned there in the place of Christ - hence his name 'Antichrist', he who comes in the place of Christ (Matt, 24,15-24; Mark 13,14-22; 2 Thess.3-11; 1 John 2,18; Rev.13,1-8).

11) Signs will appear in the heavens, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from heaven, the sea and the waves will roar and the powers of heaven will be shaken (Matt.24,29; Mark,13,24-25; Luke 21,25-26).

12) The sign of the Son of man (the Cross) will appear in the heavens and then will take place the Second Coming of Christ with power and great glory. Angels will be sent and shall gather the elect together 'from the four winds' (Matt.24,30-31; Mark 13,26-27, Luke 21,27).

[Edmond Dantes]

47. Wow, sounds like something out of "Skull and Bones".

:-)

[skooooo]

38. It's me.

Seriously.

[MsTryska]

42. I did!

I'm wodnering if C=span is just a magnet for the loonies or if theire are jsut mor eloonies in a post 9/11 world.


either way, boy is she gonna be surprised when she finds out dubya is the anti-christ.

[ProfessorGAC]

44. I Heard Her. Serious Nutball

My wife said "Did she just say that if the Palestinians and Israelis sign a peace accord for 7 years, it's the signer who is the antichrist?" Unfortunately, i had to tell my wife that she heard the nutjob correctly.

The Professor

[Edmond Dantes]

48. Ignorance is bliss!

[ProfessorGAC]

49. You Mean The Nutjob, Right?

I'm neither ignorant nor blissful. So, i'll assume you mean the insane caller to CSPAN! If so, you'd be 100% correct.
The Professor

[Edmond Dantes]

50. Sorry, not referring to you AT ALL.

Yes, referring to the insane caller.