How many here think this UN bombing was a BFEE hit?

[ElementaryPenguin]

Granted, I'll readily admit that ChimpCo has effectively pushed me completely over the edge, but this certainly sounds suspiciously like an evil Bushwacking to me. But then, I'm also paranoid enough to suspect that BushCo was behind the mysterious monster blackout. I've said it before - but when dealing with the BFEE/PNAC Mob - suspect the absolute WORST - and you'll be right about 90% of the time!! (The only thing regarding BFEE I feel I've been proven completely wrong was that serial sniper episode right before the anti-war rallies. I still contend that Prick Cheney must have been absolutely furious that someone came up with such a "useful" evil concept first!!)

[ElsewheresDaughter]

1. me for 1

[dpbrown]

2. I vote for a hit by the BFEE

The guy made the mistake of saying something like he was going to protect the rights of the Iraqis.

[ElementaryPenguin]

6. Eggsactly!!

Truly a DEAD give away!

[morningtheft]

3. abso-

muthafukin'-lutely

[arcane1]

4. but, Bush LOVES those UN guys!!!

NOT!

:evilgrin:


I put nothing, and I mean NOTHING, past these devils anymore

[ElementaryPenguin]

11. Me neither! Even at the risk of sounding like a paranoid!!

I just feel it in my gut that these sick fuckers did this!
:puke:

[TomNickell]

60. That's a pretty good definition of Paranoid.

There are medications.

[stickdog]

137. Use your brain.

There are three prime suspects here:

1) Iraqi resistance
2) al-Qaeda
3) US/Chalabi mil/intel black ops

If this was the Iraqi resistance:

a) how and why the sudden huge increase in sophistication and deadly force?
b) why use your most destructive weapon in the entire war on the sensitive, peaceful, diplomatic head of UN delegation?

If this was al-Qaeda:

a) where did they come from? how are the cells operating?
b) why not direct your well-coordinated, sophisticated attack against the hated US?
c) why the hell did we get rid of Saddam again?

*****

Only one of these suspects had obvious, proven means, a clear, unquestionable motive and all of the opportunity in the world.

Cosider the target: peaceful, diplomatic, altruistic, comparatively pro-Iraqi Brazilian human rights activist Sergio Vieira de Mello.

The US had a clear and obvious motive to target this man and his delegation. Pro-Iraqi forces, on the other hand, did not.

The US also obviously had the means to wreak such destruction ten thousand times over. For pro-Iraqi forces, this attack would represent and huge leap in destructive capacity.

The US also clearly had ample opportunity -- free rein, in fact -- to perpetrate such an act under the cover of active hostilities. For pro-Iraqi forces, this attack would represent an uncommon success in the complete and total defeat of any and all US security measures.

[SPICYHOT]

125. Well there are a lots of paranoids around

and i'm include on the list. I believe that they did it..

[TomNickell]

5. RIGHT! OF COURSE IT WAS!

NO DOUBT. NONE AT ALL.

Make Iraq even more chaotic and ungovernable! Make the troops even more fearful! Cause the UN and NGO humanitarian Orgs to pull out and make the Iraqi's even more unhappy!

How could we even begin to doubt Bush did all that himself? Probably offered the poor suckers who blew themselves up a really big medal. And 30 days leave.

WHEE!! THIS CONSPIRACY STUFF IS FUN!

No need for evidence. No need for common sense. Just make the crap up and post it on the Board!

[ElementaryPenguin]

32. Ever defending the BFEE, TN! Scum who considered the murdering of

250,000 Iraqi civilians "acceptable" in order to gain control of their contries oil fields - knowing full fucking well the puny Iraqi military and its puny weapons caused absolutely NO THREAT WHATSOEVER to the United States!! You ALWAYS defend these monsters and their most heinous crimes! Methinks it must be a less than gratifying cause to work for! Defend the friggin' devil. :puke:

Having said all that, it is true that I have no evidence of BFEE involvement - mearly speculation. But I am certain that you have never acknowledged any evidence that BFEE had foreknowledge of 9-11 - and either LIHOPed or MIHOPed our new Pearl Harbor on their way to their beloved Patriotic Act!! Permanent war, folks - make friends with it!! Put your faith in that accomplished peacemaker DONALD FRIGGIN' RUMSFELD!!! Now that is one great, heroic American!! Yes, sir - Herr Scumsfeld is one helluva human being!! I don't know about you, but I always seem to be confusing Rummy with Mother Theresa!!

[TomNickell]

57. ABSOLUTELY NOT!

I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO INTENTION OF DEFENDING BUSH, ROVE OR ANYONE ELSE. I defend Reason and Common Sense.

This stuff is HORSESHIT no matter who is accused.

Leave it with the Black Helicopter and International Jewish Conspiracy crowd.

[Sterling]

84. Bush wants the UN out.

The fact that Dean is running on the idea of handing Iraq over to the UN thus 86ing PNAC’s plan of looting Iraq’s oil for the BFEE is motive enough.

[berry]

33. Your argument about chaos would be more convincing

if it weren't well-documented that the PNACers, at least, say quite openly that they believe chaos is a useful tool. (I think they are wrong--that too much goes out of control when you try to "use" chaos, but these people really are radical revolutionaries who believe they have to break things and then be first on the ground to take advantage of the fear and confusion they have caused.)

[booksenkatz]

47. Ooooh, reminds me of that

Munchausen Syndrome by proxy (isn't that right?), where a parent says a child is terribly ill or dying, lies about symptoms, or makes the child sick via artificial means, then rushes in to "save" the child and appear to be a hero. Similarly, the PNACers create chaos and then rush in to "save" the fearful populace, and in the process they retain their power and get richer.

It's always about getting richer.

[TomNickell]

63. Chaos may be a tool, but

completely losing control of the situation is hardly a rational strategy.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TomNickell]

61. You've found me out.

Darn.

[Junkdrawer]

80. Hey Birdman, didn't Limbaugh use the strawberries bit on McCain???

I googled and found this link...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/916849/posts

[IranianDemocrat]

72. TomNickel don't waste your time.

No rational thought will ever change these peoples' conspiracy-driven minds. In this sense their almost as bad as right wing fundies.

[dansolo]

110. You forgot one more

This attack can be used to garner more sympathy from the American public for our occupation. Bush was getting more and more heat about the quagmire. Now he has a ready made scapegoat (terrorists) that he can use to distract the public away from his responsibility.

[West Coast Democrat]

7. When I Heard a Democratic Senator had Scheduled a Visit

to the UN Building, I immediately suspected the BFEE.

[tom_paine]

21. What XanthaS? Got a link?

If true, that is significant. Though I am far from believing this is the case, not much is really a stretch of the imagination.

And, much as reliable electoral systems validate the losers of an election rather than the winners (think about it), so I find did a halfway-reliable media was similarly comforting knowing it was out there and that, as people used to say so often and now still occasionally say: "But if it really happened, why is there no story in the media? How couldn't it eventually come out?"

Now we have Corporate TV Pravda (and a handful of honest journalists swimming against the tide) and everyone knows that there isn't a single thing they could find out.

"Well, we called Jeb Bush's office and they said they didn't do it. That's good enough for me..."

Anyway, if you have a link, XanthaS, I would love to see it.

[ILeft]

29. Is this the link?

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/135651_Cantwell19ww.html

Sharla Neuman, an aide of Cantwell, told KOMO 1000 News that Cantwell had just arrived in Baghdad from Jordan Tuesday afternoon and was on her way to a meeting at or near the Canal Hotel -- the scene of a car bombing that destroyed the hotel and injured dozens. But her schedule was running far behind and she was not at the building when the bomb went off.

[ElementaryPenguin]

46. Holy shit!!!

eom

[West Coast Democrat]

37. Another Link:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&ncid=536&e=1&u=/ap/20030819/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_iraq

"Several members of the U.S. Congress were in Baghdad touring military sites when the explosion happened — and at least one member of the delegation, Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., was scheduled to meet with Sergio Vieira de Mello, the chief U.N. official in Iraq, who was killed in the attack. Her spokeswoman, Charla Neuman, said first that the meeting was supposed to be at the U.N. facility, but later was unclear where the meeting was supposed to happen."

[tom_paine]

50. That does stir the drink a bit

As always, though, we are again faced with the Soviet Dilemna. When government and media become a daily tissues of lies and misrepresentations, intermeshed in a grotesque and bullying relationship, and seemingly devoid of doing much beside (with a few notable exceptions that seldom get airplay on National Corporate TV Pravda)

then we can never tell what is the truth and what is a lie. Hell, instiutions like the Treasury Department have been purged and turned into "Bushevik Instruments of the Lie". I can't even believe the unemployment figures because the Busheviks have been busted (not discussed on Corporate TV Pravda, of course) messing with 40-and-50-year old reporting methodolgies in the Treasury and other places.

So again, the Soviet's Dilemna.

God I wish I still lived in the Free World.

God Bless this twilight in which it is still possible to pretend this is so, as the "troubles" are still mostly limited to the Ruling Class.

This won't last, I'm afraid, once the Right-Wing Paramilitary Groups springing up get their act together, and National ID Cards and PATRIOT II, change will begin to be felt on the bottom levels

On Domestic Front, Four Men
In Black Answer Call to Arms

In Elkhart, Ind., Defending Homeland
Means a Lot of Gear and Late Nights
By KRIS MAHER
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
4/4/2003

ELKHART, Ind. -- At 11 p.m. on a Friday late last month, Michael J. Carretti donned a black cap with the word "Security" on it and hung a gold-plated badge around his neck. Then the burly ex-soldier got into his pickup truck and barked into his two-way radio: "Are we ready to roll, gentlemen?"

"We're already moving," answered his friend Jack Sanders as he pulled away in his own pickup. A wiry welder with a salt-and-pepper mustache, Mr. Sanders, 56 years old, sported basic black from his boots to his hat. His tactical vest was stuffed with a flashlight, a small first-aid kit, emergency glow sticks and a Hungarian-made FEG 9mm handgun.

Two more pickups, driven by neighbors Al Machin and Mike Baker, completed the caravan that moved away from Mr. Carretti's home and fanned out through the middle-class neighborhood of Woodlawn. So began another night on patrol for the men of Woodlawn Homeland Security.


After the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, President Bush and Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge asked for citizens to get more involved in homeland defense. The National Sheriff's Association, which aids groups in getting started, received $1.9 million in federal money last year to help meet a goal of boosting the number of such groups -- currently about 12,000 -- to 15,000 by next January.

Elkhart doesn't look like a prime terrorist target. A quiet, middle-income city 100 miles east of Chicago, it claims to be the world's capital for the manufacture of band instruments and recreational vehicles.

<snip>
(the original article is limited to OPJ subscribers, unfortunately)

[oasis]

8. BFEE? Their people thrive on money and power. A suicide scenario

is hard to envision.

[morningtheft]

14. eyewitness...

accounts claimed it was a rocket..and if it were a truck who's to say there was a driver.

and it's not like the BFEE couldn't get someone to off themselves with lies and mind control.

[oasis]

25. We will never know the truth. ///Welcome to DU

:hi:

[ComerPerro]

30. Do you have a link?

This would be great to see. Thanks.

[Brotherjohn]

20. Not putting on my tin foil hat yet, but it's entirely possible.

Of course a Bushie wouldn't do it personally. When a mob boss wants a guy dead, even a mob boss doesn't do it himself. He hires out.

There are plenty of Iraqi resistors over there who would do this at the drop of a hat. They'd just have to tell a guy, who'd tell a guy, who'd tell the bomber where to hit (and also provide him with the materials).

Not at all unfeasible.

[Uzybone]

9. Not enough information

for me to say who I think done it. I know who is at fault though....BUSH.

[ElementaryPenguin]

13. Good point!

eom

[TomNickell]

18. THERE'S ENOUGH INFORMATION....

THIS IS HORSESHIT.

[never cry wolf]

44. plenty of information

that the cause of the UN being there and "terrasts" being there is because there was a lil war of invasion and subsequent occupation by the nazi squatting in the white house. no unilateral, illegal, unnecessary invasion, no UN bombing.

[Mari333]

10. anything to take peoples minds off the ever dying Bush poll numbers

and secure the oil for the US companies and work for HalliburtonS profits.

[theboss]

12. Because Bush gains from Iraq becoming horrifying?

Unless everything in Iraq has been a lie - the pipelines being cut, the troops being killed everyday, cars blowing up all over the place -Bush absolutely needs some tranquility there. In the last week, the place looks like a madhouse (IT'S A MADHOOOOUUSSSEEE!!!!)

I would think the last thing the White House wants is to increase the chaos.

[morningtheft]

15. why not use...

the chaos to inject a hit hidden among the chaos???

[theboss]

26. Lacking subtlety

This is where I part with the conspiracy minded. You believe that Karl Rove is capable of manipulating all world events to fulfill a carefully laid-out agenda developed in the 1970s. Yet, the only way he can kill an anonymous UN official is by blowing up a fucking hotel?

It reminds me of The Simpsons episode where Monty Burns is trying to kill Grandpa to get the Fighting Hellfish booty.

[starroute]

51. Too many distortions in what you say

It was not "an anomymous UN official" who was killed. It was Sergio Viera De Mello, who was the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, as well as being U.N. special representative in Iraq. See the thread Will Pitt started on him for just how important he was and how much of a loss this is for the good guys.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=73068

Second, even though the blast apparently went off directly under his window, I'm not sure that anyone here is suggesting it was aimed solely at him. The apparent target of this attack, whoever did it, was the U.N. as a whole, and the likeliest purpose was to discourage any form of U.N. involvement in Iraq.

The only people who could benefit from that outcome are (1) the BFEE and (2) the must extreme nutso wing of international terrorism (assuming it really exists and isn't just a wholly-owned subsidiary of the BFEE itself.) As with the bombing of the Jordanian embassy, there is no plausible reason that either ordinary Iraqis or the Iraqi resistance would be behind it.

[tom_paine]

55. I think it's the Democratic Senator people are referring to

And we will never know what happened.

My guess is, some of the stuff going down from the Wellstone/Carnahan crashes to the Brit suicides (not to mention Cliff Baxter, who conevniently offed himself with untraceable ratshot (Glazer Safety Slugs), to the 9/11 questions and the mysterious "put options" and the Anthrax Assassin who seemed to only target Democrats and "liberal" media...some of it just is coincidence.

And some of it is the Busheviks. How much and what? Might as well ask how much of what was going on int the Soviet Union, 1978 was contrived by the Commies.

Same question, same kinds of people (even if our current cop of Busheviks can't quite implement that phase of their Theft of the Old Republic left).

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

16. Sure. Just like the space shuttle hit.

George Bush is omnipotent. Basically every world event can be attributed to Bush.

You think thar the current Eagles US tour is a coincidence? And how do you explain Michael Vick breaking his leg? Clear evidence that Bush likes the Eagles and hates the Falcons.

[ComerPerro]

35. Well, I don't know about the Eagles tour...

This is completely different than the Space Shuttle.
Stuff like that happens.

But this UN attack is suspicious for two reasons:

One, in what way would it possibly hurt Bush or any of his interests? If anything, it benifits him, just as 9/11 did.

and Two, what possible motivation would there be for terrorists in Iraq to bomb a UN institution?

[theboss]

36. I disagree

1. It doesn't benefit him. How does he benefit from dozens of Westerners dying? It looks like he has no control of Baghdad let alone the more isolated parts of the control.

2. It's a Western target. It appears that US soldiers are becoming less easy targets. So tangental targets are now the objective - pipelines, UN personnel, etc. It says, "We may not be able to kill Americans, but we can make your mission here impossible to fulfill."

[ComerPerro]

48. Well, for starters

Its shows the stupid Faux watchers over here that, "Hey, see, its not just Americans that are dying".

Add to that the fact that when something happens to anyone other than the United States, Americans really just don't give a shit.
All this therefore serves is to show the American population just how dangerous these terrorists are, and it convinces them further that their life is in immediate danger.

Furthermore, the more terror attacks and chaos over there, the more likely people are to forget him and the republicans bragging about how quickly they won the war and how easy it was.

It benifits him in the sense that it gives him a reason not to give a fuck about domestic issues. And, it sure as hell doesn't hurt him in any way, so why would he care if this happens?

Let me put it this way:
Terrorists or not, this is the LUCKIEST administration in history

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. Don't Forget Bush Set Up The Honey Trap For Kobe

cuz he's a San Antonio Spurs fan...


It's that damn Texas connection again.....

[Junkdrawer]

77. Interesting that you would characterize the theory that...

NASA leadership and the Whitehouse may have known that the shuttle was doomed as "the Shuttle hit".

[patdem]

17. As much as I hate bush*...and I HATE bush*...I do not think this was

a bfee hit? Why? bush* has the UN in the bag, and it benefits him to have less violence in Iraq not more. No I think the bfee will suffer for not providing more security in Baghdad. McCain thinks we need more soldiers in Iraq just because of this type of debacle. Just MHO? but who REALLY knows? When lies are the norm, even the truth can look distorted?

[Sterling]

91. "has the UN in the bag",

Its the fact that someone on DU of all places actually thinks this is true that makes me give up hope of ever getting rid of the NEO CON bastards.

Why is it that everyone who poo poos the idea that the BFEE is behind these kinds of events always misinterpret geo politics in general, operate without all the facts or intentionally ignore vital pieces of information to reach their conclusion.

I am sorry if I sound rude. Your response was not rude like others on this thread but to say the UN is not a thorn in the PNAC plans side is a fundamental misinterpretation of the situation.

Please consider that in order for this Iraq adventure to pay off for the BFEE the US must be the arbiter of who gets to pump Iraq’s oil.

There is momentum for the idea that the UN should take over for the US in building a new Iraq. Dean is one candidate who favors this approach.

If that happens Iraq is a failure for the PNACers. Now do you guys understand?

[Eloriel]

114. Let's see who gets blamed for this

and what Bush and others call for as a result.

And beyond that, just re-read Sterling's post. :evilgrin:

Eloriel

[clar]

19. Please, please

try and apply some critical thinking skills here. Yes, this administration is corrupt and awful. They enable terrible things to happen, but did the U.S. directly bomb UN headquarters in Iraq? What shred of proof do you have, and what's the profit for them in doing something like this? This does nothing but further destabilize an already unstable and dangerous situation. It's the last thing they want. If things continue deteriorating at this rate, Bush's chances for election evaporate. Oh, I know, they didn't like the UN attache.
Come on. This is not only tin foil hat stuff, it's sloppy, sloppy thinking.

[Brotherjohn]

24. I agree. I think the Bush gang deserves some responsibility, but...

... didn't do it themselves. They just created the situation, which more and more each day is proving to have made the region LESS stable, not more.

Today's bombing also deepens the quagmire.

[ewagner]

75. Pardon me, but

"try and apply some critical thinking skills here."

That's not allowed in this thread...:evilgrin:

[Pastiche423]

22. Put me in the ayup column

But hey, it could have been Al Qaeda. :silly:

Al Qaeda will continue to be our (invisable) boogeyman, as long as the PNACers et al control our nation.

Hell, they could surpass Clinton's wee wee as the #1 blame-e at this rate.

[maveric]

23. Just the latest BFEE hit!

And just think its been 40 years since the 1st one, 11/22/63.

Bu$hco has everything to gain here. An example of the "evil muslim infidels" and a reason to maintain and escalate this "crusade".

I may be totally paranoid but I beleive that this group of theives and murderers has more blood on its hands than even the most fanatic tinfoilhatter here at DU can even imagine. I dont put anything past them.

[cosmicdot]

27. count me in

n/t

[atreides1]

28. Anything is Possible

Anything is possible with this administration. Who would have thought
that the SCOTUS would place this man in office in 2000, but they did.

Who would have thoguht that the US Congress would have passed a law
that blatanly attacks the Civil Rights of Americans, without even reading what they were voting on.

So you see just these two incidences alone, provide proof that we're
not in Kansas anymore, Toto.


And there is still not enough evidence to say what did happen, whether
it was amissile or a truck bomb. Unlike others I don't believe what the military backed Overlord of Iraq is saying.

Unless this is turned over to an independent investigation team, we
may never know the whole truth.

[Solomon]

38. Don't you know? We don't get

no stinkin investigations about anything anymore. We ran out of investigators and money on the semen stained dress.

[Skinner]

31. Not me.

First, there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Bush is responsible.

Second, there's not even a motive.

[ElementaryPenguin]

42. Well, since ChimpCo doesn't believe in due process for anyone...

Why should we grant it to them?

[Junkdrawer]

65. Motive is what there is plenty of...

As of Aug 18, 2003, the case for turning Iraq over to eventual UN authority was strong and growing stronger. I believe this was a position you advocated yourself. As of Aug 19, 2003, that case has been mortally wounded. And, if this thing is tied to al Qaeda, the current rationalizations for staying in Iraq (the hunt for Saddam and the stabilization of Iraq) will be bolstered by the biggest boogieman of all: Osama himself.

Evidence is, however, iffy since we don't know if there will be an investigation or who will control the investigation IF there is one.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

73. You Going To Let A Little Thing Like Reason

get in the way of bashing Bush.


Seriously , if us folks on the left go off the deep end and embrace every conspiracy theory to come down the pike how we ever going to present the American people with a credible alternative to*

As Burke said "men of intemperate minds can never be free"


or as Orwell said

"Some ideas are so bizzare only an intellectaul can believe them"

[vision]

99. Yeah but life is strange than fiction nt

[birdman]

34. Obviously Karl Rove has a staff of suicide bombers for just this purpose

I mean those of us in the know are fully aware
that Ulysses Bush the current Presidents great-
great-great uncle was in fact the actual murderer
of President Lincoln but he cleverly pinned the
crime on a actor with confederate sympathies and history
has gone along with the deception.

The suicide bomber blew up my strawberries.

[ElementaryPenguin]

52. A simple "yes" or "no" would suffice.

eom

[TomNickell]

67. I think you can count that one as NO.

You can also put a hearty 'HORSESHIT!' down as NO.

Likewise, 'Bullshit!', 'Crap!', 'Nonsense', etc

[FlaGranny]

39. I don't think it was.

I might change my mind if/when I learn more. But isn't it a sad day when we trust our "president" so little that we can even entertain the thought?

[ArkDem]

40. Wonder why the BFEE didn't just down their planes

when they flew in? That's the way they usually operate.

[maggrwaggr]

43. This is as stupid as freepers blaming Clinton for everything!

c'mon, give me a break you people sound like the doppelganger version of the freepers.

If it fucking rained and flooded your basement you'd blame it on Bush.

Quit making fools of yourselves. This stuff will be used against us you realize.

[ElementaryPenguin]

49. How can you put ANYTHING past an administration that will start

a fucking war based entirely on lies??? Think about it! The U.S. broke all international law - STARTED a fucking war, invaded and conquered another nation - putting the president's (you can call him "vice"-president if you like) company in charge of the 2nd greatest oil producing wells in the world! You should be screaming about that - not at me!! These monsters would do this in a heartbeat, and some people STILL haven't figured this out yet!!

[TomNickell]

69. It's not about 'Putting anything past them'....

It's about--
1. Having -some- kind of evidence before making a serious accusation.
2. Using -some- degree of Common Sense about what accusations are plausible.

In this case there is no sensible motive--continued chaos in Iraq is politcal poison for Bush et al, and they know it--

and no plausible means--DOES Karl Rove maintain a staff of suicide bombers?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

70. The Right Doesn't Need To Marginalize Us

We are doing it to ourselves...

This is sad...

Just because * is in power doesn't mean we have to create an alternate reality.


This reminds me of when the Indians were finally crushed at Wounded Knee they created an alternate reality in the form of The Ghost Dance in the hope by doing it it would bring their forefathers back to defeat the white man.

I think some folks here have went off the edge and are doing their own Ghost Dance.

[conservdem]

117. Well said.

[knight_of_the_star]

45. He probably didn't

This goes counter to him saying that Iraq is getting more and more secure. Because the resistance is able to launch an attack like this it shows that we do NOT have the situation under control. That and another reason that they hit a UN building is because it is a BIG and EASY target and they know that the Western media will swarm over that like it is cool. It makes a statement that the war is NOT over yet.

[Dude_CalmDown]

53. I'm pretty suspicious

The only thing I'm wondering is if this was planned then why did it take them so long to respond and why did it sound so half-assed.

[ElementaryPenguin]

56. Well, they aren't even good at being evil! We can bust them everytime!

eom

[Davis_X_Machina]

54. Ask yourself 'who benefits'...

...and it is far more likely to be an internal Iraqi thing. I still think the bombing of the Jordanian embassy was a 'message' from Chalabi's people.

[Sterling]

94. Chalabi's people.

Who are Bush's people. See how it works?

[diamond14]

131. that's the guy...Chalabi...he's into everything vicious that it's on

in Iraq...he's rummy's guy too...convicted criminal...Chalabi's guys got caught blowing RPG's into a bank during the looting spree, and grabbing stuff from the Museum...and lots of other criminal activities...Chalabi does it all, under shrub's orders...he was on the scene of the explosion, and gave a statement to the WP....

Chalabi....watch him move up fast...Chalabi will become the NEXT American-sponsored saddam....

[Old and In the Way]

58. Al-Qaeda, for sure.

But what I want to know, is why does Al-Qaeda do things that always help Republicans support their "War on Terror"?

Like them taking credit for the Blackout.

Why is it that they seem to underscore the Republican position on terror?

Are they mutually co-dependent for their survival? I know there was some terrorist bombings in the 90s, but they certainly seem to be giving this administration a whole lot of credibility and justification to continue our military actions in the ME....are the actions of Al-Qaeda really in the interests of the people in the ME or in the interests of the oil companies that want to maintain US control on the oil spigots there?

[ElementaryPenguin]

85. They sure do seem to have one helluva partnership going, don't they?

Sort of like Road Runner and the Wylie Coyote.

[Junkdrawer]

87. I was thinking more along the lines of Likud and Hamas. n/t

[tom_paine]

59. DOES ANYONE KNOW WHO THE 7 CONGRESSPEOPLE WERE?

Any links would be appreciated.

The reason I ask this: Were there any Busheviks in the delegation? Not people like Snowe and Voinovich, who the Busheviks probably wouldn't mind if they "met with accidents" so they could be replaced by Bushevik Loyalists (Norm Coleman, anyone?)

However, if Trent Lott or pRick Santorum (PAs first closeted gay Senator) or any other Busheviks, were there, it would go far in assauging any thoughts that this was a Charles Kane Bushveik Special.

So, can anyone tell me who the 7 delegates were?

So far I know of two Ds, Rep. Ford and Sen. Cantwell.

Who are the others?

Please provide links...

[Beetwasher]

64. Here's a link:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030819/ap_on_go_co/us_iraq_congress&cid=512&ncid=1480

[tom_paine]

68. Bipartisan group

Kay Baily Hutchinson was there. Of course, there is still the possibility that, had the assault been successful, at the loss of 7 Congressfolk (bipartisan no less) would have been a psychic shock and caused us to howl in pain (perhaps as the Busheviks slid more Totalitarian "legislation" through unread).

But now we are veturing into real :tinfoilhat: zone.

One could certainly argue that Busheviks have killed allies before as well as enemies (such as Tower or Salem Bin Laden).

But that is some serious :tinfoilhat:

Unfortunately, the Soviet's Dilemna regarding corrupt Totalitarianism and Inept, Weak, Parasitized, Propagandized Media makes it such that I cannot dicount it completely, as some other are doing.

[Aidoneus]

62. I thought it might've been blackops at first

because it didn't make much sense, then I read that a bit later in the day there was a scheduled visit by around a half dozen US Congresscritters. I assume they were the intended target, but apparently their schedule was running late.

[Beetwasher]

66. Cantwell was Scheduled to meet w/ de Mello Today!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030819/ap_on_go_co/us_iraq_congress&cid=512&ncid=1480

Just FYI....

[Fescue4u]

74. Good god everything cant be a conspiracy

Bush is far to stupid to be the master of all conspiracys that he would have to be. We've had at least 6 events in the last week or so that have all been atributed to Bush's direct involvement.

Bush is far to stupid to be that effective.

[ElementaryPenguin]

83. Bush?? The Chimp is an errand boy!! I don't think anyone is

suggesting that Georgie Porgie is in control of anything other than hopefully his own bladder!! Now Prick Cheney, Scumsfeld, Wolfman, Tom the Exterminator Delay...these ghoulish PNAC warriors...that's a different story. Still - we ARE the primary target of an ever expanding list (particularly because of ChimpCo) of terrorist groups -so it may well be one of the groups. Still, by far the most accomplished terrorist organization in the world is the BFEE/PNAC Military Industrial Complex Mob - and I think it very unwise to automatically exclude them from any list of terror suspects.

[StandWatie]

76. ummm...

I'm not sure how to say this but the former Mujahadeen of Afghanistan (known in the West as al-Queda) actually do exist and have no use for the UN whatsoever, a UN organized real election would be the thing they would most dislike seeing because that would rob them of the glory of "liberating" Iraq.

I don't know who bombed the UN but it's not like Bush is the only person that would have an axe to grind with them.

[tom_paine]

78. Agreed, StandWatie

n/t

[qanda]

79. I love a good conspiracy...

I always think about who has the most to gain from something like this happening.

[Junkdrawer]

81. Is it my fevered imagination, or is every administration apologist...

out in force today? :tinfoilhat:

[birdman]

86. How is not believing conspiratorial nonsense

constitute being an "admininstration apologist" ?

There are plenty of solid reasons to despise Bush
and you don't have to go beyond his policies to find them.

It doesn't do anything for the image of DU and many of its posters
when you see wild accusations about how the Bushes killed Wellstone
and all the Kennedy's and Martin Luther King and even (I've actually
seen this here) Bob Marley and Jimi Hendrix. And, of course, there's
no evidence to support any of that or that they brought 9/11 about
or that they're changing all the votes from "D" to "R".

There's plenty to oppose the Bushes on and no need for whacko
unfounded silliness.

[Junkdrawer]

88. I see you dropped the strawberries bit..

Good move. :thumbsup:

[ElementaryPenguin]

89. Exactly what I was wondering, Junk!

I wasn't aware that the evil BushCo still had any defenders, much less here on the DU!! One guy just bashed me for suggesting this without ample evidence. When the hell does ChimpCo ever let anyone get a good look at any evidence?? "Wait until we've seen the evidence..." Wake up, folks!! Like everything else connected with this band of shamless thugs - we aren't EVER going to see any evidence!! Not unless the revealing parts are completely redacted, or the key witnesses have all been conveniently Wellstoned!

[birdman]

90. Yeah, evidence is vastly overrated

How can we have conspiracies if all these unreasonable
people keep demanding "evidence".

[Junkdrawer]

93. Say, isn't evidence something that comes about when...

someone forms a theory and then puts it to the test?

Well, you apologists demean every attempt to form a theory and I am breathlessly waiting for an honest investigation into any one of a dozen questionable events.

So, who will examine that cement truck for any signs of a remote control device? Absolutely nobody, that’s who. And, why even to suggest it is, of course, sacrilege.

[Sterling]

95. Critical thinking

That is what you are talking about and ironically what you are accused of not having by others in this thread.

Why are personal attacks ok when the are targeted at people the admins disagree with?

I think it is fine Skinner and others have their opinions and that they differ from mine but it would be better if those people who get personal about it would be asked to stop insulting those they disagree with.

Surely they can make their case without calling names or calling others stupid?

[ElementaryPenguin]

96. You must have swallowed a magic bullet this morning, birdman!

Cool out! These aren't respectable people being accused here - these are the blood/oil thirsty BFEE thugs!! Their reputation cannot be tarnished, and last time I looked - free speech still existed on the DU!! You wanna crap on all the 9-11 LIHOP, MIHOP theories, Wellstone, etc. - you can lump us all in the Grassy Knoll Club - fine. You can believe that Al-Qaeda rules the world, and that they were able, from a cave, to render Washington D.C. defenseless in the air, a full 47 minutes after the SECOND World Trade Center was hit - and that of all the 285 million Americans that could have received anthrax, it was Tom Daschle, at that time the leader of the opposition party, and the most outspoken critic of the yet to be passed Patriotic Act!! You might believe John Kennedy's killer was the lone nut Lee Harvey Oswald, because that's what they taught you in 3rd grade. If that all sounds kosher to you - that's fine, and that's your business, but I sure as shit wouldn't hire you as a detective!

[Sterling]

97. "evidence"

Its funny how in spite of the fact Bush and friends keep such a tight reign on information enough still gets out that so many people are suspicious of what Bush is up to.

What you just said about skeptics seems to apply to the BFEE much more so. For starters they actually have access to what you would call "evidence". They also control everyone else's access to it. They seem to operate on false information and the advantage of the control the have over what everyone else gets to know.

Now we all know Bush has lied to us about intelligence. In spite of the fact Bush has proven himself untrustworthy and controls any investigations into matters concerning himself and all other BFEE PNACers enough circumstantial evidence has been uncovered to merit an serious impartial investigation into a great number of issues you accuse skeptics of hiding from the facts.

Thanks to your blind trust and devotion PNAC can sleep well knowing many people will never even bother to look into their crimes.

[ElementaryPenguin]

101. Great post, Sterling!

eom

[birdman]

113. You don't seriously believe

that todays event was a good thing for
Bush, for the Iraq policy or for PNAC do you ? Look
at the news shows tonight. The "Q" word (quagmire)
ia all over the place and the wars popularity is
taking a hit. You think the Bushies wanted this ?

You think it would be worth the risk of exposure
to blow up a hotel full of UN people when the result
was a complete negative for your policy ?

All these goofball conspiracy theories fall apart
if you just look at them with a little logic.

Resistance is futile

[Junkdrawer]

115. Check this UN story from this morning...

UN claims broad role in Iraq, chides U.S. on safety
( 2003-07-19 10:24)

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan spelled out on Friday a broad and ambitious plan for a U.N. role in Iraq and prodded Britain and the United States to quickly establish order and let Iraqis control their future.

...

But he said Iraqis were lining up to tell the U.N. special representative in Iraq, Sergio Vieira de Mello, that quickly creating an interim government was their "central concern."

Vieira de Mello, who is also the U.N. high commissioner for human rights, had informed the military government that Iraqis must quickly be given tangible power, Annan said. "There is a pressing need to set out a clear and specific sequence of events leading to the end of military occupation."

More...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=73153

[birdman]

116. They ignored the UN every step of the way

There's no way they would have been intimidated
by any UN desires now.

There have been calls to internationalize the forces
all along and the Bushies have just ignored them.

[Junkdrawer]

118. But as the meatgrinder wore on, the call for UN involvement...

was increasing. Let's see if the call for more UN involvement increases or decreases.

[birdman]

120. And they managed to ignore the calls for UN involvement

without blowing up hotels full of people didn't they ?

[dflprincess]

123. Maybe they're just reminding the UN

who's really running things.

[ElementaryPenguin]

130. Even if it was a suicide bombing - how hard would it be to recruit

Desperate, angry people to attack any non-Iraqi "occupiers," if you simply provided money to their family, whatever? It was certainly a sophisticated attack - and they "luckily" knew just where to put it to get that menacing peacenik Vieira de Mello!

[Junkdrawer]

132. Oh, look - it wasn't a cement truck...

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The FBI said on Wednesday the bomb that ripped through U.N. headquarters here was made from 1,000 pounds of old munitions including one single 500 pound bomb, all of the materials from Saddam Hussein's prewar arsenal that required no "great degree of sophistication" to build.

....

FBI Special Agent Thomas Fuentes said at the blast site that the bomb had been delivered by a KAMAZ flatbed truck. Such trucks were made in the former Soviet Union. U.S. officials had said on Tuesday that a cement truck delivered the explosives.


more...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A19559-2003Aug20?language=printer

and it may not have been a suicide bomber.

[Karenina]

133. First a shiny new cement truck

Now an old flat-bed. In either case, I ask how it got through 2 Ami checkpoints. And if you would be so kind to humor me, J, WHY weren't the F-16s scrambled? ;-)

[Wednesdays]

82. Hell yes! This is the trifecta all over again.

Means. Motive. Opportunity.

Connect the dots.


On edit, check out this thread:
http://bartcopnation.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=2&topic_id=238939

[Cush]

92. No

eom

[vision]

98. I would not put it pass them

The UN delegation leader was exactly the type that the present US administration would not want active in Iraq. This guy was a go-getter and a peacemaker that talked about bring parties together and making Iraq independant as quickly as possible. That is not exactly the goal of Bush IMO. I doubt that they want to loose control of Iraq anytime soon and espicially having an independant Iraq.

Does the US control the highways? How did a large truck loaded with explosives get into the city to begin with? And as always, follow the money. Who benefits?

The UN was/is providing food to Iraq. This violence could cause them to retract and than Iraq will have to depend more and more on the US and become dependant to us. More oil will have to be sold to make up the difference in lost aid and this will bring more profit to US oil companies.

It could have been Iraqis that did this but I would not think that the UN would be the most likely target. It could have be Al'Quida but I don't think they have enough of a prescence to do this yet.

I just don't trust the present adminstration and I put nothing past them.

[ElementaryPenguin]

100. BIGGEST attack on U.N. in history!!

Right on the heels of the biggest blackout in history! Following the week in which the biggest government recall in history (the California Ah-nulled Coup) dominated the news. How many of these historic occurences did Karl Rove engineer? None? One or two? All of 'em?! Gee, is that Bush a lucky guy. He can now get a foothold in California. He can now sell his bullshit energy plan to the country. He's gotten back at those assholes in the U.N. - perhaps enlisted more allies in his phony war on terror. And so he missed the chance to off a couple of pesky Democrats in the process. There's plenty of time for that. The true loyal Republicans probably knew not to hang with any hardcore Dems. And wouldn't Chimpy have been devastated to have lost McCain?? Does this all sound like madness? It certainly does - just like stealing a fucking national election. But I would never have entertained thoughts like this for any other U.S. administration in history - not even Richard Nixon's. It's a whole new ballgame now, folks. We START fucking wars now!! We defy the U.N. and all international law! WE are now the bad guys!!

[WillyT]

104. Who Woulda Thunk It, Shit...

'WE are now the bad guys!!' Shame on us!!!

Just watched 'Judgement at Nuremberg' for the first time in a long while. Sent fucking chills up and down my spine. I suggest you all take another viewing of that fine film. And ask yourselves if we are right on target as a nation. The dialogue matched in so many ways to what is happening right here, right now!

FUCK!!! :nuke:

Hey EP, if this wasn't a hit, then this criminal administration has one of the longest 'lucky streaks' in the history of history!!!

On edit: Hopeless Grammar...

[ElementaryPenguin]

106. I may have to check "Judgement" out to see how timely it feels.

Felt the same way recently when I rented JFK!

[Jacobin]

102. I think it should be becoming quite obvious to most people, even in the

deluded United State of America, that

The Iraqis want us to get the fuck out of their country, Right Now.

[ElementaryPenguin]

107. No argument here about that!! And that is the bottom line!

eom

[Gemini Cat]

103. That's the first thing I thought.

Nothing is beyond them and there's no amount of evil they won't do.

[ElementaryPenguin]

108. Ever feel that way about any other U.S. administration??

I sure as shit haven't!!

[Gemini Cat]

112. No other American administration kept me up at night...

...like this mis-administration does. Also, no other administration ever made me ask first thing upon rising, "what stupid thing did the CIC do over night?" I thought Reagan was bad and he was, but this is hell and beyond. Not just for Americans, but for the world!

Edited because of glaring typos.

[goobergunch]

105. I wouldn't say so for sure...

but I wouldn't rule it out, either. :tinfoilhat:

[Yentatelaventa]

109. No more than the palestinian bus bomb that killed women and children was

My guess is it was more of the same muslim terrorists.

[Sterling]

111. What do you base that guess on?

All Muslims are the same I guess right?

[Yentatelaventa]

119. Wrong.

There is a case history of such actions by members of muslim groups. No? 911? WTC-1? Israel bus, disco, pizza bombings? Wheelchair bound American tossed overboard? Beruit? etc etc.

[Beetwasher]

121. That's a pretty fucked up thing to say

and somewhat racist. So, are Tim McVeigh and an IRA bomber the same WHITE Catholic/xtian terrorists?

[liberalmuse]

122. Call me cynical and jaded, but...

It wouldn't surprise me at all. The BFEE wants all the Iraq oil, and the UN is trying to horn in. I don't know what to believe anymore.

All the evidence points to the BFEE letting 9-11 happen, and yes, I believe the BFEE had something to do with the blackout, probably because the Iraq oil grab has had quite a few setbacks and they need to look into other ways of grabbing cash. They're probably planning on getting a large chunk of the diamond mines in Liberia too. Also, Venezuelans are now petitioning to recall Chavez. The BFEE has had a lot of shady dealings going on in South America. Coincidence? I think not.

[osaMABUSh]

124. I don't think so but I can see the BFEE would eat this up

because in some ways it deflects interest from the dubious War on Iraq and makes people think "wow these terrorists (which they equate with Al Queda regardless who is at fault) are every where. Maybe the US troops can protect this people"

On the other hand, rationally thinking, you would say "Holy Shit if the US wasn't there this (and dozens of other atrocities) would have never happened. WTF are we doing there?"

Bottom line: we screwed the whole region up just like most of us predicted a year ago.

[WillyT]

126. Kick !!!

:kick:

[David Zephyr]

127. I Must Admit, I Have A Very Open Mind About It, EP!

Meanwhile back at the hunt for WMD's.

[Zan_of_Texas]

141. Oil -- Money -- Power

1. The US has 22 billion barrels of oil in proven reserves. Iraq has 112 billion barrels. (At $30/barrel, that would be over $3 trillion. Minus expenses.) Iraqi oil is among the cheapest in the world to extract (not including costs of invasion and nation-building, of course.) Before the invasion, Iraq was switching to using the euro instead of the dollar, which had huge implications for the U.S. dollar. The US is one of the world's largest importers of oil.

2. Chaos reins in Iraq. But, the oil buddies of BushCo could almost taste the sweet crude.

3. Who could stand in the way? The U.N. Re the envoy killed:

Throughout his tenure in Baghdad, he took pains to remind everybody that the United Nations would be in the country long after U.S. forces leave and insisted that the world body - not the U.S.-led coalition - should control the spending of Iraqi oil revenues.

4. Where was the blast situated? Directly at the envoy.

5. Who else has the US military been killing on sight? Journalists -- latest at 30 meters, killed by tanks.

Word for word sentences from mainstream sources from 8-19 and 8-20, Houston Chronicle or AP:

In today's attack, a cement truck -- packed with twice the amount of explosives as the embassy blast -- detonated at the concrete wall outside the three-story Canal Hotel. The blast occurred while a news conference was under way in the building, where 300 U.N. employees work.

The positioning of the bomb near the envoy's office suggested he was the target of the attack, L. Paul Bremer, the top U.S. civilian administrator in Iraq, told CNN.

Most of the excerpts below came from this link:
http://www.ktvb.com/sharedcontent/northwest/specialreport/stories/NW_081903SRBdemelloobit.20814034.html

UNITED NATIONS - Sergio Vieira de Mello, a United Nations veteran who served for more than 30 years as a troubleshooter in the world's most dangerous hotspots and became the top U.N. envoy in Iraq, was killed Tuesday in a truck bombing against his offices in Baghdad. ...After being named to the Iraq post in June, the Brazilian diplomat said his top priority was to protect the interests of the Iraqi people under the U.S.-led occupation. "I have been sent here with a mandate to assist the Iraqi people and those responsible for the administration of this land to achieve ... freedom, the possibility of managing their own destiny and determining their own future," he said on arrival in Baghdad in June.
...
U.N. staffers gathered in corridors, on the promenade facing the East River and around television sets as they mourned the loss of the man spokesman Fred Eckhard called "a rising star." "He was a wonderful guy. He was the U.N. in a way," Salim Lone, the U.N. spokesman in Baghdad, said. "Wherever there was suffering he was there. ... He was everywhere. He was a very brilliant man, totally wedded to the United Nations." U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan agreed. "The loss of Sergio Vieira de Mello is a bitter blow for the United Nations and for me personally," Annan said. "I can think of no one we could less afford to spare."

(also mentions his prominent role in East Timor)

In his last interview published before his death, Vieira de Mello sympathized with Iraqi resentment at having foreign troops on their soil. "It is traumatic. It must be one of the most humiliating periods in their history. Who would like to see their country occupied? I would not like to see foreign tanks in Copacabana," he told the Brazilian newspaper Estado de Sao Paulo in an interview published Monday.

Throughout his tenure in Baghdad, he took pains to remind everybody that the United Nations would be in the country long after U.S. forces leave and insisted that the world body - not the U.S.-led coalition - should control the spending of Iraqi oil revenues. "We're truly in a unique situation here," he said of the occupation. "By the usual U.N. standards, this is at best a bizarre situation."

[poskonig]

128. Not I.

This is as silly as Freeper Clinton-hate.

[gulliver]

129. Chance of that is somewhere between zero and none.

They don't kill small numbers of people and they certainly don't do it directly. Bushies just squeeze people down, deprive, humiliate, and incite them so they kill each other.

[Hanuman]

134. No.

Keep working on the things that can be supported by evidence.

Niether do I see a positive gain to Bush from this attack- it just taints the whole Iraq campaign even more- it does not enhance it.

[redeye]

135. Not me

I don't see any reason why I should believe that. There's just not good enough a motive, plus Occam's razor chops off the conspiracy and leaves the simpler solution, i.e. that anti-American, probably pro-Saddam terrorists did that.

[Minstrel Boy]

136. Well, they've done worse

and gotten away with it.

I can't say I know it was, but I certainly can't say I know it wasn't. There are enough legitimate questions, I think, to warrant my suspicions.

* no group has yet taken credit
* indeed, an Iraqi resistance group said Iraqis would never target the UN
* the truck passed two US checkpoints, in an environment where troops are shooting up ambulances
* the truck turned to the rear of the building and blew up directly beneath de Mello's office
* how well known to prospective bombers was the exact location of de Mello's office?
* de Mello was an outspoken critic of US unilateralism, and recently said the UN, not the US, should be the interim authority over Iraqi oil revenue
* US authorities in Iraq, according to reports, have reacted with hostility to the recently heightened UN presence, treating it as an encroachment upon their turf.
* the bomb was far larger and more military/professional than any used thus far by the resistance. Why use it against the UN rather than a soft Occupation target?
* why the sudden, identical spin on US broadcasters yesterday morning, that this could mark a "turning point" by causing Iraqis to reject the resistance?

[stickdog]

138. TINFOIL DEBUNKERS, PLEASE UNITE!

Your help is needed on this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=205182

[Upfront]

139. Yep

Would put nothing these boys.

[Kellanved]

140. no way

You might argue for LIHOP, but I don't believe that.

[screembloodymurder]

142. No way.

They would have hit Belgium.

[Noordam]

143. Could be SOMETHING SMELLS

I could see BFEE/CIA doing this or setting it up.

[moondust]

144. Nope.

Just a scared, tired GI who made an honest mistake and will have to live with it forever.

[slack]

145. thanks for that thread

really interesting
:)