Hillary Clinton targets new rise in video game violence

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/29/051129223726.dqn74ka0.html

Backed by gruesome shots of computerised cannibalism, police beatings and violence, campaigners warned parents that their children were increasingly at risk from "sadistic" video games.

Senator Hillary Clinton and former vice presidential nominee Joseph Lieberman meanwhile launched new legislation intended to protect kids from graphic, violent and sexual material on their game consoles.

The National Institute on Media and the Family said in its annual report that video game retailors had failed to honor promises to safeguard children from violent and sexual content in new generation video games.

"There has been significant industry progress and reforms over the last decade, but ever more violent and sadistic games are still ending up in the hands of children," said the institute's president David Walsh.

[LSparkle]

1. Not her TOO ... She's just trying to one-up Tipper and the PMRC

Hey, Hil, why dontcha ask Joementum to be yer Veep so we can LOSE BIG!

:wtf:

[noahmijo]

38. Her and JOe fucking started the attack on video game violence

Ever hear of "The Media Marketing Accountability Act"?

That was her and Joe in '93 attacking video game companies for delivering products consumers were demanding.

This is a huge reason why I hate Hillary, and why if for some ungodly reason she is the nominee only if the repuke is a total wingnut will I get off my ass to go vote.

[montanacowboy]

2. Hillary and Joementum

what a pair!

[IndianaGreen]

65. What a pair of moralizing morons!

A pair of Rockefeller Republicans!

[cyr330]

82. Correction

I understand what you're saying, but actually Joe and Hillary make Rockefeller Repubs look positively liberal in comparison.

[saigon68]

313. JOE LOSERMANN AND HITLERY want a new federal dept

To protect US the SHEEP

from things they think are offensive

WHAT ABOUT THE FUCKING WAR THEY BOTH VOTED FOR

THEY ARE CRIMINALS

[Mend]

3. why don't they stop the real violence in Iraq? eom

[still_one]

25. well said

[tabasco]

32. Took the words right outta my mouth.

Support real war but oppose cartoon war.

Nice priorities. :mad:

[ReadTomPaine]

106. Bingo. n/t

[Emillereid]

34. My thoughts exactly!

[IndianaGreen]

132. Frying civilians with white phosphorus is not a problem for Hillary

She probably felt like doing a "shake 'n bake" on Big Dog on more than one occasion.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

156. Kerry admitted publicly that voting for it was a mistake. Has she? (nt)

[ClassWarrior]

4. As opposed to... I dunno... REAL violence in Iraq??

NGU.

[Sin]

5. Tip to Hillary

Don't piss off videogamers.

[Missy M]

6. I see nothing wrong with trying to protect children from these type...

of video games. I don't even know why adults want these kind of games.

[MindPilot]

11. The games already have ratings, keeping them away from the kids

is the parents' job. We don't need anymore nanny state especially when the nanny is pro-war.

[evirus]

18. VIOLENCE ISNT THE WHOLE GAME

that is why people play them, because theres a story to be told, theirs a conflict to be resolved, theres a challenge to be overcome. its not just violence for violence sake, people MUST under stand that. pick up grand theft auto, any of them, play through it, and be amazed that 90% of the violence is the fualt of the gamers action... not the stories!

[Ian David]

40. You mean you don't buy The Sims just to lock them in a bathroom...

and watch them piss all over themselves and starve to death?

[Occulus]

69. .

:rofl:

[Arkana]

91. ...

:spray: :rofl:

[Chovexani]

61. Welcome to DU!

And seriously, don't even try to bring Earth logic into these discussions, it's like Kryptonite to the willfully ignorant, gamer-hating Muggles on DU.

[Name removed]

242. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mike Daniels]

112. You've got to be kidding. Every GTA story is a violent revenge tale

Don't get me wrong. I love playing the GTA games and think these type of proposals by government officials are just hot air.

However, a significant majority of the central story missions, and most optional missions, in any of the GTA III based games revolve around the directed killing of a specific target or targets.

Even if the mission doesn't require a direct hit on someone, the attempts to accomplish the mission or escape the consequences of your mission usually involves some collateral damage to bystanders.

The player could be a total saint when not playing through a mission, and the body count is still going to be pretty high by the time the story is said and done.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. I agree

and I don't understand why the game defenders don't see that.

[XemaSab]

117. I used to play Goldeneye all the time with my friends

It's based on the Bond movies, and you can play it alone against imaginary Russian thugs or you can play it with friends and pretend to shoot your buddies. I got "killed" hundreds of times, and "killed" my friends hundreds of times, and had fun all the while!

It's a great time had by all, and it's a lot less dangerous than dodge ball or any other game where the object IS to hurt your friends IRL. Or a board game like Risk, which arguably desensitizes you to the idea of entire armies getting wiped out.

It's like the arguments made by fundies that Harry Potter teaches children to worship Satan.

Kids (and adults) can tell fantasy from fiction.

[Occulus]

56. That's not the point

The Powers That Be know retailers like Meijer, Target, Best Buy, Circuit City, WalMart, KMart, etc., will not sell adult materials, and once a game has been branded "adults only" it's usually store policy to pull it.

How many times have you seen Playboy sold at the above stores?

How many times have you seen NC-17 films advertised by your local cinema?

This is a very effective way to get games banned. It's a civil ban, not a legislative ban, and "business owners can decide what they will and will not sell because it's their business."

I happen to like violent video games simply because they are a ready outlet for any violent feelings I might have. I've used them to that purpose more than once. It's quite honestly cathartic at times.

Once you learn to play these, you learn that it isn't really intended to be people in the games at all, only valid targets. Most FPS games won't allow you to shoot the "good guys"; in most cases, a headshot to someone on your team (in single player mode) results in a verbal admonishment from the character you just shot.

Some games do allow friendly fire, and those games are much harder to master as a result. And guess what? Masters of such games don't shoot their friendlies.

The point is, it's usually much more about the strategy of the game, the visuals, and the story than it is simply about killing people.

This all comes from someone who has been playing games for more than twenty years. Believe me, Certain Parties are getting overly hysterical on this issue.

There may be correlation, but that does not presume or result in causation.

[XemaSab]

118. Makes as much sense as the correlation between porn and rape

Violent people may like violent games, but nonviolent people also like violent games.

Violent perverts may like porn, but nonviolent perverts also like porn. :D

[Chovexani]

62. OH NOES

Someone, somewhere is having fun in a way you don't understand?

It's mindboggling how many DUers seem to have missed that lesson in preschool about some people liking some things, and other people liking other things.

[Moochy]

85. Adult Entertainment

So you don't like it, don't play it. Let's create a bubble around our children and not tell them violent stories either. Grimm's fairytales are right out. Let's have a cultural revolution where only good ideas are given to our children that way the evil taint of violence doesnt take them over.

:eyes:

[Jerry Bransford]

95. Adult Entertainment

Next HIllary will be wanting to take away our porn :rolleyes:

[NYC Liberal]

107. Grimm's Fairtales? Hell, might as well ban the Bible, one of the

most sexual, violent books out there. Rape, incest, adultery, sex (including anal), mass slaughters, murder, battles, human and animal sacrifice, infanticide, torture, slavery, beastiality, sodomy, executions, visions of the devil and evil spirits...you name it!

[IndianaGreen]

133. Why don't you protect children from the Bible?

Just read the god-damned book! There is plenty of incest, rape, genocide in that book, all in the name of GAWD to mess young children's minds for life.

[MindPilot]

7. Hey kids, if you want to see sadistic and violent images,

forget the video games, we've got a real war all set up for you! And me & joementum intend to make it last until you are old enough to enlist.

[Moochy]

86. But you won't see any unseemly coffins

because we believe in our foreign wars of agression, since we are neo-libs of the imperialist strain.

[stepnw1f]

8. What a Lame Non-Issue Right Now

I agree that violence can desensitize some kids, but COME ON!

[evirus]

19. HA

i grew up playing games like doom, and i would never ever even dream of hurting ANYONE. we should be more concerned about kids who are doped up and playing these game, medications and games have been showen to not mix well in some cases.

[Dave Reynolds]

9. Nanny Hillary to our rescue!

Save our children from our shitty parenting skills, Mrs. Clinton.

[anotherdrew]

10. Hillary can go to hell with the rest of the DINO's

This is not the governments business if she can't understand that there are SO MANY VASTLY MORE IMPORTANT things she should be working on, I don't see any point in support her for anything.

[sniffa]

12. *yawn*

teLL me again how she's the shoe-in for 2008.

[SIU_Blue]

13. Good thing we our politicians are working on issues that matter!

After all, after I am drafted in high school, sent to Iraq to kill, not given proper treatment by a financially crippled VA hospital, and then not able to find a job, I wouldn't want to plug in my playstation and play a violent videogame!!! Way to go Hilary!!!!

:sarcasm:

[tmooses]

14. Maybe Hil and Joe should ask why Americans are so enthralled

with violence. I think this is something much deeper than video games-like mass marketing violence as an American virtue.

[RamboLiberal]

15. Hey Hillary and Joe - How about starting with this game!

America's Army is one of the most popular computer games on the planet and like many games, it is a shoot-em-up, get-the-bad guys kind of affair.

But unlike other games, America's Army is truly a product of the US military. The Army first released the game a few years ago as a recruiting tool.

But, at the recent Serious Games Summit in Washington, DC, the Army showed off a new use for its computer game - training soldiers for combat.

America's Army now has six million registered users, and scores of fansites, worldwide. That is not just because the Army gives the game away online for free.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4460082.stm

[evirus]

22. Have you seen the article?

one where a kid used medical procedures, which where explained in the game america's army(more below) and saved a relitives life. sorry but i dont have a source, im sure you could google it or look it up on www.gamepolitics.com

ive played america's army and in order to play specific classes you have to pass through several "boot-camp" levels, first is basic training to actualy play the game, and one of the optional ones is a training mission for being a medic consisting of two actual levels in the first level you sit through an instructure talking through a slide show of a few medical procedures that can be done in the field, after the slide show you have to take a multiple choice quize on what was talked about and score above like 70% i think. then the next level you have to go around talk to a few wonded people and pick and treat them in order of their injuries sevearity

(i apologize if my spelling is a little off im trying to reply to a number of things individualy)

[Dark]

98. I don't have a problem with that game.

But I do worry that some people will think that that is what war is like.

There are a lot of stupid people out there, and even more smart people who have a habit of getting duped.

[retread]

16. This crap is so transparent! n/t

[CrazyForKucinich]

17. She just needs to STFU

There is a reason Gore was even close to Bush in 2000 and that was Joe Lieberman and his videogame hating ass. Hillary would be advised not to take on videogames...she will lose.

[datadiva]

20. Jeez Louise

as a gamer, I say quit it and leave me alone! Let parents do their jobs. It really angers me that government has taken over that responsiblity. Leave my games, my tv and whatever else I want to do alone. My kids are grown now but I had control of the tv they watched and the games they played when they were growing up. Granted, some parents don't do their jobs but why not hold them accountable instead of creating new legislation and target the companies who make the games. They already have a ratings system. Sorry, didn't mean to rant. :rant:

[killbotfactory]

21. Everyone knows this is bullshit, including her

V-chip redux?

Hey, maybe they should push for better standards of living, and more time off for parents, so they, you know, can raise them properly?

[Chicago Democrat]

280. Yup, just Hillary managing her image...

Does she actually believe in anything at all? She believes in whatever advances Hillary, nothing else.


A Demagogue. A Corporate Whore. A Propagandist. Hillary has done nothing but DLC, Republican-lite! What a fool I was to think she was ever a liberal.

[High Plains]

23. Hillary's careful triangulation continues...

Moving ever closer to the right, er, center.

[The Sushi Bandit]

24. LAME ASS ISSUE

ITS SAFE.. THAT IS WHY SHE IS DOING IT

[VegasWolf]

102. Exactly! As opposed to, oh say, calling for Bush's impeachment. nt

:sarcasm:

[FlemingsGhost]

26. The DLC must be destroyed, folks. (n/t)

Flem.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

27. She loses either way.

The Republicans she's wooing won't vote for her no matter what, and the younger voters who mostly vote Dem will be turned off by this.

[WI_DEM]

28. Let's see what is worse? the violence on a video game or in Iraq?

Why can't she be as vigilant on Iraq?

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chelsea0011]

29. Frig her. I just watched a news report on Christian video games

coming to the market. And you know what? They are violent. You carry around a sword kill Romans and all other forms of heathens. And you know why? It sells.

[FVZA_Colonel]

73. I heard they're making some sort of RTS or squad-based tactical

combat game based on Left Behind, and knowing the source material, of course it won't be violent...

[Occulus]

30. They're only trying to make sure it's harder for adults to play them

If the games are restricted agewise, the retailers won't carry them, because they "need to cater to everyone".

Witness how quickly Vice City disappeared from retail shelves after the "Hot Coffee" debacle. It's gone. I can't fine it anywhere. I don't have a working credit card- I shut it off- so I can't buy it. Period.

Thanks, idiot anti-gamer fuckwads. Thanks. Now I can't play a game I want ot, because you got all hot and bothered.

Maybe, if such people got laid more often, they would have seen less of a problem with it.

/half-sarcasm

[evirus]

31. ouch

ouch, little harsh, but yah you got a point (but i think you mean san andreas(3/3) not vice city(2/3), right)

[Occulus]

55. my bad

Yes, that's what I meant.

Oops.

[pinniped]

46. I was trying to find one shortly after and found them on ePay and...

craigslist for about $100.00. I passed.

[Occulus]

54. Exactly.

By effectively banning it from store shelves, they created a gray market for the game.

And then they wonder why people shoot each other over drugs.

My upstairs neighbor has one purchased before the civil ban. I told him to hang on to it- it'll be worth some considerable cash eventually.

Thanks, antigamers. I'm not spending that much for a game. You win.

For now. If I ever get into the industry, I'm committing myself to making a game that is everything you hate- and doing it interntionally just to piss you off- and I'll distribute it for free online, with donations accepted, again, just to piss you off.

And just so you know, I'm learning 3D modeling, so I'm actually doing something about this.

Fighting you people is one of my goals. I vow to you here and now I will ring an unringable bell. May you despise my actions... forever.

:evilgrin:

[evirus]

74. brillant

you sir.... are a true visionary

[pinniped]

75. There was a big hoopla over the puter game Postal in the late 90s.

I picked up a copy back then, not a bad game by 90s standards. The box was complete with perforated bullet holes. All the postal peeps had an uprising.

[Dark]

99. Make a game where you burn the flag while preforming an abortion.

That'd be fun!

[nookiemonster]

103. Outstanding!

Sums things up succinctly. I wish you luck!

:thumbsup:

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

33. Why in the fsck...

Do all the politicians, on both sides, always talk about taking things away from citizens, or just take them away. When are they gonna give things back?

[pinniped]

35. The Army put out a shootem' up video game for the xbox.

I saw the commercial.

[Xithras]

37. America's Army

It's actually been a PC game for years, but the Army recently penned a deal with another company to port it to other consoles.

AA is actually a decent shooter, and unlike many of them it's not cartoony. You get shot and you die. You play Rambo and you die. It's quite realistic.

[pinniped]

43. I didn't know that, I just thought it was weird the commercial...

made mention of the fact the Army was in the video game biz.

My first reaction was it was a recruiting tool.

Does it come with recruiting literature?

[Xithras]

49. It is a recruiting tool.

But no, it doesn't come with any literature. It's a game that's meant to show what combat is really like, and even includes a boot camp. In fact, you can't play the game until you qualify on the weapons you're going to use...just like the real Army.

The original idea, if I understand it, was that the game would let teens "test-drive" the military to see if it was really for them. Now it's more of a PR tool.

One of it's big selling points is that a lot of real soldiers play it, using it as a tactical simulator. When you jump into a game and go up against some other group, you never know if that other group is going to be a bunch of real Army Rangers, or a bunch of pimply kids.

[pinniped]

50. Thanks for the insight.

.

[Occulus]

58. AND the PC.

I downloaded the demo.

It wasn't even worth stealing.

[TroubleMan]

36. She just keeps getting more and more repug by the day.

How can she even keep the (D) by her name?

[moriverrat]

39. Lady, do you think we are stupid?

Bitching about the imaginary (games)
Embracing the reality (war)

[Ian David]

41. I played violent video games but I didn't inhale. n/t

[killbotfactory]

42. Yes. She does.

Okay, maybe not you, exactly, but the "swing voters" who they have focus-group tested these "strategies" to appeal to. Unfortunately, swing voters are very fickle and selfish when it comes to government policy, and have no coherent vision for the future. But apparently, pandering to them wins you votes. :eyes:

[MrBenchley]

93. I think she's got ample evidence to decide....

Wiggle your joystick....

[moriverrat]

105. HaHa! n/t

[Ian David]

44. Let's start with THIS video game: The Army Uses XBOX Video Game To Recruit

(CBS4) On Tuesday, the U.S. Army will release its newest recruiting tool � a video game for the new XBOX. The Pentagon is using �Rise of a Soldier� to promote unsung heroes and entice young gamers to join up.

�Being all you can be� is not a slogan normally associated with playing video games, but that could all change with the release of �America�s Army: Rise of a Soldier.�

�The �America�s Army� game is an infomercial for the Army, says video game expert Jason Rich. �To get people excited about the action they are going to see.�

It is the first time the Army has licensed its brand name to a video game maker. Gamers crawl through obstacle courses, train on a rifle range, and of course, shoot to kill.

�It�s certainly something the kids are going to be looking at,� says Cheryl Mahoney of Norwood. �Whether it�s an ideal way to recruit is another story.�

�I don�t think they should be recruiting kids through violence,� says Ruby James of Mattapan. �Especially 15 and 16-year-olds� no.�

CBS4 took an advance copy of �America�s Army� and brought it to �Play and Trade� at the Walpole Mall.

�It doesn�t show that you�re killing aliens with blue blood coming out,� says Taylor Aubut of Dedham. �It shows what you�re really going to be dealing with.�

<snip>

The Army actually hands out a PC version of this game for free at recruitment offices.

More:
http://cbs4boston.com/topstories/local_story_325223856.html

[Ian David]

47. U.S. Army and Ubisoft Bring America's Army: Rise of a Soldier to Xbox

http://mms.businesswire.com/bwapps/mediaserver/ViewMedia?mgid=12296&vid=2

November 15, 2005 02:23 PM US Eastern Timezone

U.S. Army and Ubisoft Bring America's Army(R): Rise of a Soldier(TM) to Video Game Consoles; The Most Authentic Military Console Game Ever Created Ships to Retail Stores Today

SAN FRANCISCO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Nov. 15, 2005--Today Ubisoft, one of the world's largest video game publishers, announced that America's Army(R): Rise of a Soldier(TM) has shipped to retail stores for the Xbox(R) video game system from Microsoft. Ubisoft and the U.S. Army worked together to develop a new and unique experience for console gamers that features all the action-packed realism that players have come to expect from the America's Army game brand. With unprecedented behind-the-scenes access to the vast military expertise of the U.S. Army, Ubisoft created the most authentic military console game to date by incorporating true-to-life character progression via an all-new Career mode. The PlayStation(R)2 computer entertainment system version of America's Army: Rise of a Soldier is projected to ship in Q1 2006.

"We are very excited to bring the only official U.S. Army game to consoles," said Tony Kee, vice president of marketing at Ubisoft. "Working firsthand with the U.S. Army to create this all-new title has ensured the deepest and most realistic military game ever to hit the consoles. Players will become immersed in the complete Army experience while learning what it takes to rise through the ranks in the all-new Career mode."

Built in partnership with the U.S. Army and developed by Secret Level, America's Army: Rise of a Soldier offers the most true-to-life Army experience, allowing players to create a soldier and lead him through the excitement of an Army career. Intense single-player missions and high-adrenaline multiplayer action progress the skills of a soldier as he rises through the ranks.

"Our collaboration with Ubisoft has resulted in the most authentic console game about soldiering in the U.S. Army," said Colonel Casey Wardynski, originator and director of the America's Army game project. "America's Army: Rise of a Soldier emulates the real Army, allowing players to choose their own career paths. Players can focus on individual Army roles, like Sniper or Grenadier, or experience different roles in their goal to achieve Green Beret status."

Key Features

-- Unique Career mode: Unparalleled character customization allows players to create a soldier and take him throughout his career -- from recruit to Special Forces Team Leader.

1. Earn experience points in training and combat missions and
use them to increase core skills.

2. Play as an integrated member of an eight-man fire team at
first -- then progress to become a Fire Team Leader
responsible for and issuing commands to a fire team.


-- The only official U.S. Army game on the console: Real active-duty Special Forces operatives consulted with game designers to ensure the highest level of realism in any military game in existence. Authentic weapons, equipment and combat situations come straight from the U.S. Army subject matter experts.

-- Play it your way: Rise of a Soldier has no linear campaign design; players can choose their own career paths. Either focus on certain roles (sniper or automatic rifleman, for example) or experience different roles in the goal to achieve Special Forces.

-- Intense Military Action: Quick reflexes, smart tactics, and the use of teamwork are mandatory to succeed in army missions, which plunge players into ultra-realistic combat scenarios.

-- Multiplayer: Rise of a Soldier will offer a top-notch multiplayer experience with up to 16 players playing on Xbox Live(R) and online for the PlayStation 2 computer entertainment system. Career Mode will be brought online, where players can create and build an online character.

For more information, please visit: www.riseofasoldier.com

Press site: press.ubi.com

Download Screenshots here: http://press.ubi.com/downloads/LaunchScreens_AA.zip

(C) 2005 Ubisoft Entertainment. All Rights Reserved. America's Army, America's Army: Operations, America's Army: Special Forces; Empower Yourself, Defend Freedom, The Official U.S. Army Game and U.S. Army are trademarks or registered trademarks of the Department of the Army in the United States and/or other countries and used under license from the Department of the Army. Rise of a Soldier, Ubisoft, and the Ubisoft logo are trademarks of Ubisoft Entertainment in the U.S. and/or other countries. Developed by Secret Level. Published by Ubisoft Entertainment. "PlayStation" and the "PS" Family logo are registered trademarks of Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. Online play requires internet connection and Memory Card (8MB) (for PlayStation 2) (each sold separately). The Online icon is a trademark of Sony Computer Entertainment America Inc. Microsoft, Xbox, Xbox Live, the Live logo and the Xbox logos are either registered trademarks or trademarks of Microsoft Corporation in the United States and/or in other countries and are used under license from Microsoft.

About the U.S. Army

Through the teamwork efforts of the more than 1.2 million Soldiers in the active Army, Army National Guard and Army Reserve, the U.S. Army is the world's relevant and ready land force. Today's Army Soldiers are on the frontline in the ongoing Global War on Terrorism in missions like OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM and OPERATION ENDURING FREEDOM, and joint-service missions for the Department of Defense. The Army will be 230 years old June 14. For more information on the Army, go to www.goarmy.com or www.army.mil.

About Ubisoft

Ubisoft is a leading producer, publisher and distributor of interactive entertainment products worldwide and has grown considerably through its strong and diversified lineup of products and partnerships. Ubisoft has offices in 21 countries and sales in more than 50 countries around the globe. It is committed to delivering high-quality, cutting-edge video game titles to consumers. Ubisoft generated revenue of 538 million Euros for the 2004-2005 fiscal year, an increase of 8 percent over the previous fiscal year at constant exchange rates. To learn more, please visit www.ubisoftgroup.com.

Contacts


Ubisoft
Tim Cummins, 415-547-4000

[Initech]

45. Please Hillary, dont turn into Zell Miller!

Ugh...

[Ian David]

48. Zell Miller has better hair. n/t

[LostinVA]

63. No, he doesn't.

[Ian David]

67. Why do you hate America's hair? n/t

[IndianaGreen]

68. Zell Miller has a smaller ass!

Hillary's rump is as big as her pandering to disaffected Republicans.

[Gregorian]

52. Now there's something for liberals to rally behind.

Hillary and Joe, go go go. Please, go!

[GRLMGC]

53. God, how annoying

This is so stupid. Games are rated for a reason. Target the stupid parents who ignore the Mature rating, buy the videogame for their 8 year old, and them get all upset at the violence.

[AlCzervik]

57. Am i living through the late 80's again? Didn't this happen with

music already? ENOUGH!!! I am the parent of a an 11 year old, she plays what i buy for her, or if she buys i take her and say yes or no based on the content.

[Chovexani]

64. Thank you for doing your job

And, you know, being a responsible parent. Wish more were like you. :thumbsup:

[Arkana]

59. Shut up, Hillary.

Just shut the fuck up. With all the crap that's going on in the world, who gives two shits if some 16-year-old plays GTA (when it has a Mature rating)?

[Dr Fate]

60. I own one single video game: Vice City.

If Hill & Joe want to investigate somthing, they may want to start with voter fraud or the DSM.

[FVZA_Colonel]

70. "computerised cannibalism?"

I swear, if she goes after "Stubbs the Zombie: Rebel Without A Pulse," there will be HELL to pay!

[upi402]

71. what? no missing strippers???

we need a good cause -a flavor of the month...how about Pamela Anderson's breasts? Just the fact that they're there- 24/7. Tragic.

Big breasts and the spines who support them.

[DemonFighterLives]

72. Stupid Issue Hill

Why don't you tear into the corrupt administration and the illegal war. Now that would earn you some respect.
And that goofy Joe too.
:freak:

[NuttyFluffers]

76. thus continuing to give liberals a bad name for the next generation...

hey, if the parent can't read the big M on the corner of the box, or won't listen to the warning i give them as they are about to purchase the game for the shrill whining brat right behind them, there's little that can be done. and honestly, when was the last time you saw an AO rated game at a generic big box video game retailer? those suckers are so hard to find.

look, if you don't understand your child's hobby, perhaps it's time you learn, hmm?

jesus, we don't have these problems at libraries. parents there are far more vigilant about where they take their kids in the library than they are about modern mass media entertainment.

[Swamp Rat]

77. I wish they'd put the same effort into helping hurricane victims.

I guess we are not important enough to them to even merit political pandering.

[Bread and Circus]

78. Tell her to back off. Man I hate her.

I'm sorry but all this censoring crap is just counterproductive.

I can protect my children from that stuff. I don't need her help.

[Hyernel]

79. Oh come on, Hillary...

There are so many other more important issues to spearhead.

[Rex]

80. There should be a law that states Congress-critters can only

talk about virtual violence after they solve problems with real-time violence. I've never known of a kid that killed someone else over a video game or as a byproduct of video games. I hear tell that people die every single day in Iraq! Real people, real blood.

This will only piss off the young voting crowd. :eyes:

[XemaSab]

119. They tried to pin Columbine on DOOM

Rammstein, and goth fashions.

All total bullshit.

They want a quick fix to deep cultural unease among America's youth which is manifested in nihilist media, but they're confusing cause and effect here.

F'in DINOs. They're just as bad as the fundies who blame youth violence on the teaching of evolution in schools.

[cyr330]

81. Does she have nothing better to do?

Can she not focus on the war that she helped to start and that she's trying to exacerbate? She's worried about promoting violence? That silly bitch should focus on the violence we've inflicted on Iraq and on Iraquis and on our secret torture chambers around the world. I'd say that THOSE things are a bit more threatening than some fucking video game. Sounds to me like that fucking asshole is trying to cozy up to the rabid right wing.

[Moochy]

83. Grand Theft Auto once bit my sister

Can you feel the Joementum?

[jsamuel]

84. arguments against violent video games are baseless

they rely on presumptions that have never been proved true and are correlated to be false

[mongo]

100. That's true of porn to -

but it doesn't stop the utopian nanny statists and religious fanatics from coming after it.

[springhill]

87. God oh mighty...........

She is worried about simulated violence, when the real threat to our kids now and in the future is the Iraq war and the coming wars that are in the works. Unbelievable!

[Nutmegger]

88. Nothing else to tackle?

This is what they're focusing on? Pa-lease - these DINO's need to find something else. I played moderately violent games but was raised appropriately so I'm not out there running amok.

[fujiyama]

89. .

[fujiyama]

90. A little less

than a year to go before we have a remote chance of taking back congress and THIS is what the supposed frontrunner for 2008 is offering?

Wow.

[MrBenchley]

92. She's right....

"cannibalism, police beatings and violence"
Yeah, the fun never stops with video games, does it?

[Lights_Out]

94. Censorship is what's truly wrong with us

Don't blame the government for poor parenting; there is really no excuse. Kids are able to play these games not because of the vendors or politicians, but because parents let their kids walk all over them. Fuck that, not in my house.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[genieroze]

97. I guess she has never played Postal.

:rofl:

[occuserpens]

101. Interesting approach to high-tech legislation

<Backed by gruesome shots of computerised cannibalism, police beatings and violence, campaigners warned parents that their children were increasingly at risk from "sadistic" video games. Senator Hillary Clinton and former vice presidential nominee Joseph Lieberman meanwhile launched new legislation intended to protect kids from graphic, violent and sexual material on their game consoles.>

All they see is e-porn!

[Orsino]

104. Beats working, I guess

There's no excuse they won'y use to avoid confronting real issues.

Whores.

[ReadTomPaine]

108. Hillary has no idea how radioactive this topic is...

Tone deaf to the grassroots as usual.

[rocktivity]

109. Chill, Hil!

the little darlings are just practicing for when poverty forces them to enlist and "finish the job" in Iraq. As for the images being too violent, perhaps you'd prefer the Abu Ghraib photos!

:eyes:
rocknation

[Robbins]

110. Hilary

The problem I have with this Is as a Liberal Democrat I believe strongly the Government needs to stay away from telling us what to eat,what we watch on TV,what Video games some play,what we see on our
computers,and what we do In the bedroom. I also believe If people play games at home they are less likely to be on the street committing crimes. Hilary needs to worry about stopping real violence
like what Is going on In Iraq then moralizing what we do at home.

[VegasWolf]

120. Good post! Welcome to DU!!! nt

[Hekate]

111. SOMEone has to do it: the industry ratings are meaningless...

...underage sales are not enforced anywhere near adequately, parents really have no way of knowing exactly what's in any given game. The extremely popular "Grand Theft Auto" turned out to have scenes of explicit porn embedded in it -- and it was heavily marketed to kids. When this was exposed (so to speak) the game was pulled and re-rated, but there was no meaningful penalty meted out.

Get a clue -- this isn't about the First Amendment or your rights as an adult. This is about protecting kids. Exposure to violence and porn (not to mention the other nifty themes) actually affects growing brains.

The industry tries to throw this all back onto parents, who are already swamped just trying to earn a living and get dinner on the table. Parents need some help with this particular job. Keep reading.

Society and the law protect the young from alcohol and tobacco as much as possible because it is understood how dangerous these substances are for young bodies and minds. There are meaningful laws on the books, and vendors who peddle booze and smokes to minors face hefty fines and even the loss of their licenses.

The time has long since come for the same to be done with video games. If it's not enough for us to just say it's the ethical thing to do, then let's acknowledge that the science is there (as with alcohol and tobacco) to show how damaging graphic violence and porn is to minors.

Tipper Gore was right, and so are Hillary Clinton and Joe Lieberman. They're good Democrats. If we don't encourage people on our side to work this problem out it will be left to Republicans pandering to religious wingnuts, and we will all be unhappy with the results.

Hekate

[MrBenchley]

113. From the video game industry's OWN website

here's some of the fun that kiddies can have with video games:

"* Alcohol Reference - Reference to and/or images of alcoholic beverages
* Animated Blood - Discolored and/or unrealistic depictions of blood
* Blood - Depictions of blood
* Blood and Gore - Depictions of blood or the mutilation of body parts...
* Drug Reference - Reference to and/or images of illegal drugs
* Intense Violence - Graphic and realistic-looking depictions of physical conflict. May involve extreme and/or realistic blood, gore, weapons, and depictions of human injury and death
* Nudity - Graphic or prolonged depictions of nudity
* Partial Nudity - Brief and/or mild depictions of nudity
* Real Gambling - Player can gamble, including betting or wagering real cash or currency
* Sexual Themes - Mild to moderate sexual references and/or depictions. May include partial nudity
* Sexual Violence - Depictions of rape or other sexual acts
* Simulated Gambling - Player can gamble without betting or wagering real cash or currency
* Strong Sexual Content - Graphic references to and/or depictions of sexual behavior, possibly including nudity
* Suggestive Themes - Mild provocative references or materials
* Tobacco Reference - Reference to and/or images of tobacco products
* Use of Drugs - The consumption or use of illegal drugs
* Use of Alcohol - The consumption of alcoholic beverages
* Use of Tobacco - The consumption of tobacco products
* Violence - Scenes involving aggressive conflict"

Sounds like Rush Limbaugh, Bill Bennett and Ted Bundy out on a bender together, doesn't it?

[Hekate]

114. Thank you, Mr B! DUers, if Dems don't take this on, Wingnuts will!

And you know what? There are a whole lot of moderate and liberal parents out there who will be grateful if the video industry gets clamped down on.

In the right hands, it won't be the slippery slope that extreme First Amendment advocates wring their hands over, it will simply be as socially responsible as restricting minors' access to alcohol and tobacco.

In the wrong hands, and we know who they are, it will indeed be part of the slippery slope.

Hekate

[MrBenchley]

148. What I wonder is

who the fuck thinks this dreary crap is "progressive" in any way?

Remember, the makers of the racist swill called Grand Theft Auto actually committed corporate fraud by inserting easiyl accessed adult content in a game marketed to kids...and then LIED about it publicly when they got caught.

I actually had one of the joystick twiddlers try to defend this garbage the other day by pointing out it was just like cigarettes, alcohol and porn....

[redqueen]

115. That's the stuff allowed in games rated T for teens? n/t

[MrBenchley]

147. Why not find out?

[redqueen]

170. Just as I thought, it's NOT!

You cut and pasted that from their page, but made no effort to explain what you're posting (if you even understand).

What you've posted is the descriptions of the content that the manufacturer SPELLS OUT FOR IDIOTIC PARENTS on the back of the box. That way they don't even have to waste their precious time evaluating the game themselves, they can read the back and know what's going to be in the game, before they decide to let their child play with said game.

The content by rating is described below:

"TEEN
Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood and/or infrequent use of strong language.


MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content, and/or strong language


ADULTS ONLY
Titles rated AO (Adults Only) have content that should only be played by persons 18 years and older. Titles in this category may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity."

Is there a case for making laws with teeth for distribution to minors? Yes. Beyond that, this is a non-issue.

[MrBenchley]

182. So in other words...that's the crap in video games...

"the content that the manufacturer SPELLS OUT FOR IDIOTIC PARENTS"
Funny, I'd call anyone who thinks that crap is "entertainment" idiotic. Also pretty repulsive.

"Is there a case for making laws with teeth for distribution to minors? Yes."
Just like Hillary and Joe are doing. Hard ot see what some people are up in arms about.

"That way they don't even have to waste their precious time evaluating the game themselves, they can read the back and know what's going to be in the game, before they decide to let their child play with said game."
Because of course, no child ever buys a video game by himself.

[redqueen]

185. Hey, I'm all for her legislation...

The grandstanding about it, though? While there are SO MANY other, MUCH more important issues, is indefensible. Period.

[Qibing Zero]

189. Why aren't they up in arms at the movie industry then?

What about television?

Those mediums are even beyond video games when it comes to these issues. On television you can watch rampant infidelity be glorified, sex become meaningless, real-life wars being sold with lies, and money being wasted in 'luxurious' fashion while millions around the world starve. Movies, at least, are just movies. Video games actually usually have a point, despite all of the things you seem to hate. Even in the absolute 'worst' games, there is still a storyline, and you still have to get through obstacles. How are video games what need to be targetted here exactly?



So what is it? Do you have fundie leanings or is it full blown? Your attempt to push your morality on others is what's really 'repulsive' here.

[MrBenchley]

193. Geeze, you got us all there.....

After all people sit for hours replaying the violence in movies and TV shows over and over and over again, giggling as they do...(snicker)....

"Video games actually usually have a point"
Do they? Tell us, what is the point of Stubbs the Zombie?

"Your attempt to push your morality on others is what's really 'repulsive' here."
Yeah, it's only in MY morality where sadism, violence, and cannibalism aren't good clean fun....</sarcasm>

[Qibing Zero]

199. Nice word choice.

First off, I already covered your ignorant argument about the giggling bit on another post.

Second, all of your information you've gathered from this thread is what you've read about games, not actual experiences. Have you even played one? It doesn't seem like it. I'm a pretty regular gamer and I haven't even heard of some of the games you seem to be combing over the internet to find.

Last, you're in outrage over what again exactly? One post it's hidden sex in GTA, one post it's the violence, another post it's sadism and cannibalism, the next post it's not the content at all - it's the lying. Is it all of these things? Where do we draw the line of censorship then?

Obviously I don't agree that these things should be taken out of games, and neither do many others. It IS your morality that wants these things not to appear in video games, and apparently only so people can't replay things over and over (because you say that's what the problem is, for some reason).

[MrBenchley]

202. Yeah, I'm pretty proud of it.

"I already covered your ignorant argument about the giggling bit on another post."
Feel free to repeat it.

"Have you even played one? It doesn't seem like it."
Actually, I have...and found the experience joyless, offensive and mindnumbingly boring.

"you're in outrage over what again exactly?"
I find it hard to see any part of this odious pasttime not to be outraged about, The content is mindless hate-filled dreck and the marketing practices are dishonest. And the arguments in defense of these ugly little timesinks seem to be dreary libertarian blah.

[Qibing Zero]

205. Oh, so 'ban videogames' it is then?

That's your stance then, right?

[MrBenchley]

207. No, I'd be happy to have them more strictly regulated....

I also wonder why "progressive videogamers" aren't speaking out against the folks who build racism and mindless violence into their timesinks.....but then that would take a real committment to progressive values....

[Name removed]

211. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

212. Yeah, God forbid anything interfere with your racist, violent fun

"Do we want mindless violence and racism anywhere? No."
Yeah, it shows (snicker).

[Qibing Zero]

214. Cute.

Keep up the flamebait.

[MrBenchley]

215. So why aren't progressive gamers speaking out, do you suppose?

It's a mystery to me.

[Qibing Zero]

220. I offered a real reason.

I would definitely consider myself progressive, but progressive doesn't mean I want to run around censoring everything I don't like. I'd love to address hundreds of issues I consider important, but you can't address the smaller issues until you get the big ones out of the way.

Once we fix the other serious problems in the world (how about the war, the killing, the poverty, the starvation?), then we can worry about the simulated issues, and whether they are even issues or not. Look at it this way: Who are you more worried about - the 18 year old playing GTA at home, or the 18 year old killing people in Iraq? Who do you think is going to be the one scarred by what they saw and did?

[MrBenchley]

226. So why aren't progressive gamers speaking out?

"I'd love to address hundreds of issues I consider important"
And EVERY progressive gamer feels exactly as you do? None of them is at all troubled by the ugliness in the pasttime they spend so much time playing?

"Once we fix the other serious problems in the world"
So in other words, we should wait to address racism and the like until we solve the problems of human nature.

"Look at it this way: Who are you more worried about - the 18 year old playing GTA at home, or the 18 year old killing people in Iraq? Who do you think is going to be the one scarred by what they saw and did?"
I don't think either one of them is getting a world of good out of either experience. I also wonder how many of the ones in Iraq went there because they were misled about how much fun war was going to be by video games?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/computergames/story/0,11500,1085814,00.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/30/eveningnews/main609489.shtml

[Qibing Zero]

230. Wow, just wow.

You certainly don't fail to impress at every turn.

You're seriously comparing playing a video game to killing REAL people. I bet you'll tell us next that gamers are the ones who can't see the difference from a video game and reality. :eyes:


And yeah, we all play horribly violent pointless racist games. 'Cause those are the only games out there.

[MrBenchley]

234. I'm always happy to disappoint some people....

"yeah, we all play horribly violent pointless racist games"
They sure don't seem to bother any of the "progressive" gamers enough to say boo.....

[Qibing Zero]

246. Oh noes?

That must mean we love them and play them daily.

It's sick that you speak of racism yet you sit here and continue to stereotype.

[MrBenchley]

251. "That must mean we love them and play them daily."

And try to make excuses for them.

And what IS sick is the kind of person who tries to make excuses for racism such as "Racial slurs are incredibly popular with the crowd of kids I just described" or "if 'nigger' wasn't a 'cool' word for kids to use, if 'gay' in teenage-boy-speak was not interchanged for 'stupid'..."

[Qibing Zero]

253. You don't cease to amaze with your disillusionment.

Taking my words completely out of context, then saying I support racism. Is this your idea of intelligent discussion?

[MrBenchley]

257. Now what was out of context about those quotes?

Be sure and tell us how they translate into anything but a defense of racism.

"Is this your idea of intelligent discussion?"
It is on my end.

[Occulus]

281. What are the qualities of a game you "like"?

I don't think anyone's asked you that yet.

What's in a game you would find acceptable?

Not what's NOT in it.

What constitutes a game you "like"?

[MrBenchley]

283. Geeze, nally....how sad

There's dozens of things people haven't asked me yet.

[Occulus]

329. So answer the fucking question.

What are the qualities of a game *you* would actually like?

[Solon]

333. I'll take a guess here...

Bible Adventures (NES)

[MrBenchley]

337. Wait right there....

I'll put your question on my "to do" list and give it all the attention it deserves.

[Occulus]

339. Considering it's completely relevant...

AND considering I want to get into this industry, I have an actual need to know, if I want to be able to cater to people such as yourself.

So... what constitutes a game you like? What kind of game would you find enjoyable?

Puzzle? Adventure? Mystery? Nonviolent arcade action (think Tetris)?

I'm not asking for actual names, here, but qualities.

[MrBenchley]

342. Considering I gave you the answer you deserve

I think you ought to go and ponder it.

[Occulus]

344. Ponder what?

Dismissal /= answer.

What constitutes a game you would like? What qualities are in such a game?

[TheWatcher]

350. How do you ponder a an answer when you clearly haven't given one

ANSWER.

THE.

QUESTION.

[Qibing Zero]

124. Oh FFS

Perhaps you're not all in the light on this issue.

First off, the only way to get to said 'explicit porn' was to HACK the game itself. It was not hidden within the game anywhere, it was left on the CD after they had decided to take it out. As always, someone examined every inch of the CD and found the things excluded from the game, which is actually a common occurance (though not usually something like that).

Second, you're just spouting your own morality, and trying to push it on others. Your comment about porn and violence affecting growing brains is a null argument, considering every single moment of living is capable of affecting a growing brain. Is it worse that if I was exposed to seeing someone die or someone have sex at a young age than it would be if, say, my parents brainwashed me for years and years into thinking that everything the 'world' says is wrong, every last bit of science is not to be trusted, and the bible is the only thing you need to live by? Which do you think ends up having more effect on your brain by the age of 18?

Third, your arguments for minors and damaging substances are silly as well. Pornography and violence could be dangerous to a minor if they are on their lonesome and have never had reality explained to them, yes. However, if some form of nurture is there to give the child a loving environment and take the small amount of time to give an explanation for the understanding of life, seeing a couple of people having sex or having a fistfight is not going to scar them for life. I also find it seriously hard to believe that age restriction laws on alcohol and tabacco actually help anything. I won't go into the marketing issue, because I despise advertising as a whole and have no problem with any limitation of it, but I would definitely argue that age restrictions, especially on alcohol, are counter-productive. Simple psychology (and reverse-psychology, or any kind of parenting) would tell you that.

Finally, your comment about not having enough time is just sad. Sure, a parent shouldn't have to preview every single thing before their child can play/watch it, but if your 17 year old couldn't handle GTA, the issues extend FAR beyond the fact he was playing it. I never thought I'd say it, but parenting takes a lot of responsibility - people need to learn that. =P

[MrBenchley]

150. Not so....

The adult content WAS hidden within Grand Theft Auto by the makers. The corporation LIED about that to get the rating so they could market it to kids, and then LIED again when they were caught.

"Rockstar's parent, Take Two Interactive, also admitted for the first time Wednesday that the sex scenes had been built into the retail game -- not just the PC version but also those written for Xbox and PlayStation2 consoles.
Company officials had previously suggested that a modification created by outsiders added the scenes to the game, last year's best seller in consoles."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/07/20/video.game.sex.ap/

"you're just spouting your own morality, and trying to push it on others"
And you're trying to push an irresponsible industry's lack of morality on others, and then blame others for their lack of "responsibility".

"I never thought I'd say it, but parenting takes a lot of responsibility - people need to learn that."
Rush Limbaugh couldn't have said it better.

[Qibing Zero]

187. What on earth are you trying to say?

The content was still unaccessable unless you HACKED into the game. It's as simple as that. The mod just unlocked what was already there, but it was still 100% unaccessable to anyone who wasn't going through vague means to find out how to get to it.

You keep saying 'kids'. Are you talking about 17 year olds? The game was given a rating of mature, 17+. This whole madness was over the fact that some 17 year old could buy a game that, if you downloaded a modification for it, had a couple sex scenes in it. No one said anything about the game before that, mind you, so don't act like this was about the game being oh-so-bad otherwise. This was just some uptight people getting all crybaby about the fact there was potentially some sex in the game. Sex. Not running down pedestrians, not killing hundreds of random people, police, and military. SEX.


As for your other comments: If you'd like to address the actual issues I brought up, I'd be glad to respond.

[MrBenchley]

194. I've said it before....and i'll be happy to repeat it

The corporation that made the game lied about the content to get a rating, then lied when the content was discovered.

"If you'd like to address the actual issues I brought up"
Been there, done that.

[Qibing Zero]

197. You did nothing of the sort.

You avoided even what I was talking about in my last post!

You're up in arms about the content of the video game. I explain how hard the content was to get to, and how it was never supposed to be known. You come back and say 'but, but, the video game company LIED!'. That's a pathetic argument to stand on after you've made so many other reaches in this thread. They didn't lie about the original content anyhow - they probably didn't think anyone would have been able to hack into it and even discover it in the first place. What happens if it took a couple more years for someone to hack into the game and find it - are we still bitching about this? Do you even know enough about this subject to understand what I'm saying?

And are you ever going to respond to my original statements on this post, or are you going to keep ignoring the substance?

[MrBenchley]

206. The makers lied about the content to get a rating

and then lied againwhen the content was discovered....

"They didn't lie about the original content anyhow"
Not so....

"Rockstar's parent, Take Two Interactive, also admitted for the first time Wednesday that the sex scenes had been built into the retail game -- not just the PC version but also those written for Xbox and PlayStation2 consoles.
Company officials had previously suggested that a modification created by outsiders added the scenes to the game...."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/07/20/video.game.sex.ap/

[Solon]

229. Question...

Have you seen the MOD itself? First, the "players" involved are fully clothed, the only way to see anyone nude in this particular minigame is by downloading the textures off the internet. Also, the so called sex basically involves you satisifying a woman, is there really anything offensive in that? I've seen more offensive stuff on late night basic cable, and parent's can block that if they so choose, just like they can NOT buy the damn game. If the Mature rating wasn't enough, NOTHING but an outright banning would be appropriate, and that is going too far. Why the hell should the government step in in this, why don't they step in ON the MPAA's ratings, which are even less effective. Back in the old days, kids snuck into the "R" rated movies all the time, they still do. Same for Music and Books, a kid could by one of those "sick and depraved" romance novels which have things that are much more explicit than most porn, would you like that to be legislated too?

[MrBenchley]

235. The company lied about the content to get a rating

and then lied when the content was discovered.

[Solon]

240. You seem to have little grasp of how to program...

Look, almost any piece of computer software has content in data or programming lines that are commented out instead of deleted. This is for a simple reason, and that is to avoid breaking the code on these programs so to avoid a rewrite, they are usually on a tight budget and timetable for these games, and rewriting ALL the code, which could take many more months, sometimes a year. This is similar to movies in a way, though for movies it is much simpler. Look at all the "Unrated" DVDs that come out, having more explicit content that theatre releases. These have movie scenes that were edited for movie theatres for the sole purpose of avoiding an NC-17 or above rating. The content was later put back in, as they originally intended.

The problem is that for video games it isn't as simple, originally they intended for the mini-game to be accessable to anyone who is 17 or older. Later they realized they couldn't get the "M" rating but an "AO" rating instead, which can seriously hamper sales, just like NC-17 does for movies. Anyways, they didn't have the option of just cutting it out, not without it costing millions of dollars, so the decision was to simply make it inaccessable in the "vanilla" version of the game. If they had instead simply deleted the data and code in the first place, they may have delayed the release of the game by months, losing sales in the process. The fact that a third party happened upon the code and disabled their blockage of it is NOT THEIR FAULT. They made a BUSINESS decision based on technical limitations, it really is that simple.

[MrBenchley]

244. I have a great deal of knowledge about programming

"they are usually on a tight budget and timetable for these games"
And so they accidentally put the crap in their games and then said "whoops, look at that, we have to comment it out".....

"NOT THEIR FAULT."
Yes it is. Now go cry about it to somebody who gives a shit.

[Solon]

263. Where did I say they accidently put it in?

Where? Don't misrepresent what I say again. I said they put it in, PURPOSELY, but realized LATER that there was NO WAY that the ESRB would give them an "M" rating on the game with it in, so they made it inaccessable, instead of going through the expense of rewriting the game code, debugging, etc.

[MrBenchley]

284. LOL!

So in other words, that it's other people's fault is so much lame rationalization.

[Qibing Zero]

268. If you really do, then debunk something that was just explained.

He wrote a long post describing how it is done, and you've written nothing. Who has the knowledge?

[Solon]

271. Apparently his logic is so perfect...

He doesn't bother to use it to defend his own points. Not to mention the broad brushes and stereotypes of gamers themselves.

[MrBenchley]

286. Apparently some people will swallow any rationalization

no matter how silly.....

[MrBenchley]

285. I'd say it's me....

since I know what "okay" means....

[fujiyama]

151. Joe Lieberman is a good Democrat?

Sorry, but that's likely one of the STUPIDEST F****N THINGS I have heard in a while...

If the ratings aren't being enforced, that's the fault of the places that sell the media. Enforcement of existing laws and ratings is fine but there is simply NO REASON it should be made difficult for responsible adults to play this stuff.

And I think many are missing the point with what Tipper Gore did. She got the industry to put together a rating labeling system which has worked out well. Games also state why they are rated a certain way.

And Hillary Clinton is a pandering fool. She seems to have shown no set convictions on ANYTHING. I have a VERY difficult time believing that when this nation is stuck in an endless war, with stagnating incomes and standards of living, lack of available health care, and all the like, that video game violence is what concerns most parents. If it is more concerned over petty shit like that, this nation deserves exactly the kind of leadership (or lack thereof) it has now - and that seems to be from parties!

[jumptheshadow]

116. Gamer here who favors restriction

There are actually socially redeeming things about games and gaming communities. But the sector is still in an undefined social and legal zone. Recently, as I previously posted, I was called a "nigger" by a player in the game Dark Age of Camelot. I appealed, and customer support then proceeded to tell me that they don't monitor the player run battlegroups, and wouldn't do anything about it. Yet you have to join the battlegroups in order to accomplish some of the more complex things in the game. Yes, there are filters available, but players use variations of the word in order to elude them. So if you object to racial epithets, or to your kids hearing racial epithets bandied about in peer discussion, then you are plumb out of luck as far as Mythic Entertainment goes.

This is why a 13+ age rating should be enforced. If the game's producers fear they will take a financial hit because of their lackadasical attitude, they will have more motivation to boot the players who are using hate language.

[Contradistinction]

122. This is an issue???

I hate it when people try to make an issue where there isn't one. Another way to put it....Why isn't there a rating system for churches? They confuse and corrupt more than any video game. New slogan...."keep religion away from the kids."

[Qibing Zero]

125. Exactly!

Just made that argument in my last post on this topic. It's beyond silly.

You're right though. After all, we're all born atheist.

[jumptheshadow]

127. ????

Don't quite understand your response.

Yes, the use of hate language and the word "nigger" used by whites and aimed at blacks is an issue for me. I hope it's an issue for you, too.

[Name removed]

191. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jumptheshadow]

209. Um...

"I'm just going to gather that you haven't spent much time gaming online."

LOL. I wish.

You *can* boot players out who use racial slurs. Some games do. Not all of them do, because, frankly, white players make up most of their customer base and they think they can slough off hate language aimed at minorities. But some games do.

Gaming is hardly anonymous. Every keystroke you enter has a trail and is logged. So when a player uses racial slurs they can be traced very easily. Yes, this might be difficult to do with free games and limited staffs. However, hate language should not be allowed in a paid environment. It is a particularly insidious form of racial discrimination. Saying "most of the kids do it" is neither true nor is it an excuse for passivity.

[Qibing Zero]

213. No, it is true.

Perhaps not on the game you play, but it is most definitely a widespread thing. Tracing someone's IP is not going to get you the individual person who is doing something you deem to be wrong most of the time, and that's provided they're not masking it in the first place. Yes, the game companies can choose to do whatever they want - with their game. They can boot off players using 'inappropriate' language and what not if they'd like to. If companies don't do that I assure you it's from a lack of manpower or funding to deal with every last person who has ever used a slur, not acceptance for the people who do.

The type of game you play (pay to play, and also a MMORPG) does not have a lot of these type of people playing it, but trust me, the 'problem' is widespread, especially among more competitive games.

[jumptheshadow]

221. "The problem?"

You put the word "problem" in quotes? You don't consider vicious racial slurs a problem? You don't believe that black customers and gay customers have a right to play with the same comfort level as white and straight customers?

[Qibing Zero]

228. The 'problem' is vague, that's why.

It's hard to solve, and it's hard to pin down. Look, free speech rights only don't apply inside a game because the designer holds full rights to restrict access to said game. I'd like as much as you if racism did not exist, if 'nigger' wasn't a 'cool' word for kids to use, if 'gay' in teenage-boy-speak was not interchanged for 'stupid'... but how exactly are you proposing we deal with this issue? Make slurs illegal or something? You can't just make game companies responsible legally for what someone says - especially online. If you're reading this thread, you probably already realize I have a problem with restricting free speech, so you won't even get a hint of my support for something like that. Heh.

[MrBenchley]

236. What's vague about it?

"You can't just make game companies responsible legally for what someone says - especially online."
Why not?

"If you're reading this thread, you probably already realize I have a problem with restricting free speech"
Unless someone criticizes video games...you're all over that like white on rice.

[Solon]

241. OK, should an ISP be liable if someone accesses Stormfront.com...

or some other racist, sexually explicit sites? Is AOL responsible for the behavior of the participants in its unmoderated chatrooms? Some of these games don't even have the control over the servers, especially in PC games, how are they responsible for anything that goes on in these games?

[MrBenchley]

243. What a disgraceful response....

"how are they responsible for anything that goes on in these games?"
Yeah, you sure wouldn't want to blame anyone for allowing racist behavior to go on unfettered, would you? Let's all throw up our hands and say "nothing can be done about racism ladidada".

[Qibing Zero]

250. Free. Fucking. Speech.

If we can't agree on that, we have no common ground to even be arguing off of.

[MrBenchley]

If racism is okay with you

then we neve rhad common ground to start with....

[Qibing Zero]

254. Your logic is infallable

By allowing racists to speak, I support racism. Have fun in your totalitarian society when you find it.

[Name removed]

259. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solon]

262. What the hell are you talking about?

You can despise the speech of someone while at the same time defending their right to say it in the first place, regardless of the MEDIUM used. To bring out the canard that all of us free speech advocates actually LIKE what despicable people say is intellectually dishonest at best. Look, if I decide to run a game server for a game, like Doom or whatnot, and people start using speech like that, its my server, my PROPERTY, and my right to ban them from it by the IP address. It is also the right of people who don't mind that type of stuff to be used on their own servers to allow that speech if they want. But it is NOT the responsibility of ID software(Doom makers) to regulate that speech through the game, unless it is played on their OWN servers. From a practical standpoint, ISPs, telephone companies, and designers of all programs that help you go online are NOT responsible for the content that OTHERS produce.

[Qibing Zero]

266. He has to be clinically insane - I'm through even trying to reach him.

The only other time I have discussions with logic being warped in ways like this is when I have to converse with my fundie relatives.

[Solon]

267. I know, its seriously warped...

Imagine the uproar if people try to ban Micro$oft Word because some asshole wrote a racist book on it.

[MrBenchley]

287. That IS hilarious....

"To bring out the canard that all of us free speech advocates actually LIKE what despicable people say"
In that case, I'm sure you'll be happy to show us all the many instances in which progressive "free speech advocates" spoke out against racism in these games.

"t is also the right of people who don't mind that type of stuff to be used on their own servers to allow that speech if they want"
Gee, no shit. And it's also the right of people to point out that those folks don't mind racism and bigotry in the slightest. Just as it's also the right of people to point out that some of these games encourage racism or contain racist content themselves...again, without a peep of complaint from our progressive gamers, it seems.

"From a practical standpoint, ISPs, telephone companies, and designers of all programs that help you go online are NOT responsible for the content that OTHERS produce."
Why not? I'd certainly argue that there's a balance to be made between people's freedoms--and that the right of people to live free of harassment and abuse outweighs the right of people to harass and abuse them verbally. To try and pretend that ISPs and game designers hold no responsibility for the hate speech they engender and allow to occur is sophistry in defense of irresponsibility.

[Solon]

299. How the hell will you enforce anything to do with...

Protecting people from "verbal abuse". There are already laws against countinuous harrassment, but seriously, you wouldn't hold SBC responsible for someone calling you and calling you a racial epitaph would you? Or how about sueing the USPS for a letter you recieved from Aryan Nations, or other such bullshit?

[MrBenchley]

303. Is this really such a mystery to you?

"a racial epitaph "
Uh-huh.

Canada, Britain and other European countries already have hate speech laws.

[Solon]

306. You avoided my question.

As far as I'm aware of, none of those countries hold phone service or mail carriers responsible for the packages or messages they deliver. Remember they are third parties and are most likely not aware of the content of hate speech over their lines. Besides which, in many of these countries, the law is either rarely enforced, or not enforced at all.

[MrBenchley]

309. Yeah, I usually don't answer the silly ones.

[Solon]

311. Why are they silly?

Look, you were the one that asserted that video game publishers are responsible for the conduct of their players online. What is the difference?

[Qibing Zero]

248. Bullshit.

1 - It's called free speech, pal.
2 - I NEVER said you didn't have the right to critize video games. Upset much that you don't have a valid argument here?

[Name removed]

255. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Occulus]

278. "right" and "ability" are two different things n/t

[jumptheshadow]

247. You do what you can

If a person is appealed in-game for making a racial slur, you check your logs, then you suspend that person if he made the comment, then you permanently ban that person if he makes similar comments again. It's that simple. Ban a few people, post it on your community page and the message that discrimination isn't allowed will be transmitted very quickly.

If you are a big bucks video game company -- a business -- with a 13+ rating, meaning the game is acceptable for 13 year olds, then that is the least you can do.

If you don't want a 13+ rating, you aren't aiming for shelf space at the big chains, you have written off the black and gay markets, and you don't have any ethical issues with racism, then close your eyes to what's going on. However, it *will* come back to haunt you at some point. Video games aren't a subculture anymore. They are mainstream and the companies that manufacture them have to be held to the same standards we use for other businesses.

[Qibing Zero]

256. Companies do these things.

Hell, I've been warned for using simple curses in certain games. What more do you want?

[jumptheshadow]

261. You make uniform standards and enforce them

And I've been told that my video game company won't warn players who use racist terms. Hence the need for standards.

[Solon]

264. Should they be enforcable by law though?

That is the question, for such a law would be struck down on first amendment grounds alone. Would you advocate a Constitutional Amendment to enforce any such provision?

[jumptheshadow]

274. No

They shouldn't be enforceable by law. However, I welcome the publicity that the intiative is generating because it will, I suspect, force this burgeoning and influential industry to enforce standards they supposedly already have and to make the gaming environment fairer to minorities.

[MrBenchley]

293. I see no reason not to have hate speech laws

The First Amendment doesn't cover assassination threats, or (to use the famous example" yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theatre. I'd argue that hate speech should also fall into that category.

[Solon]

294. OK, let me get this straight...

You don't like free speech as a general rule, I can understand that on a emotional level, not on a logical level. Besides, the two examples you gave are not covered for a reason, and that reason is that one is a direct call of action, usually against an individual, and the second fosters panic, endangering the lives of others. Those are specific, yet what is hate speech? Is calling me a Mick hate speech? If not, why not? What about "Paddy Wagon"?

[Name removed]

298. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

302. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

304. It shows (snicker)

"you are simply stretching the truth"
Cries the guy who a few posts up shouted "You hate free speech"....

[Solon]

307. I said you didn't believe in free speech...

and you have yet to disabuse me of that notion. So the question is this, what is "hate speech" in LEGAL terminology? Is it a matter of who is targeted, what group of people? Can the law protect political groups, as well as ethnic ones? What about religions, are they to be protect, but political parties can't? If I say I think most Repubs are assholes, is that hate speech?

[MrBenchley]

312. "If I say I think most Repubs are assholes, is that hate speech?"

In your case I'd say it's hypocrisy, since you seem eager to rationalize and defend so many GOP arguments and talking points: We can't regulateindustries for their actions but we can vilify parents for their lack of "personal responsibility"; Hillary Clinton is e-e-e-evil; open bigotry is permissable because "nobody knows what hate speech is."

I find it astonishing that you seem so unaware of any discussion about hate crimes and hate speech laws. There's a big ongoing debate, and while the ACLU has come out against hate speech laws, almost all the opposition comes from groups like Vdare.org...and they certainly know what hate speech is since they make their bread and butter from peddling it.

http://www.sociology.org/content/vol003.002/kallen.html

http://www.wcl.american.edu/hrbrief/v3i2/lerner32.htm

http://www.hatecrime.org/subpages/hatespeech/hate.html

[Solon]

316. OK, so for that quote, I should be in jail...

or fined, don't know which you prefer, but that is according to your second link. As quoted:

Sandra Coliver's Striking a Balance: Hate Speech, Freedom of Expression and Non- Discrimination defines hate speech as: "an expression which is abusive, insulting, intimidating, harassing and/or which incites to violence, hatred or discrimination." Hate speech laws are those which prohibit any of the three types of hate speech: group libel, harassment, and incitement. These categories seem to cover the concept of "inflammatory political speech" and it is in this sense that I use the phrase in this article.

Considering my inflammatory remark about Republicans is actually rather mild for this site, you would prefer that a good half or more of DU is either fined or put in jail, which ever you prefer. I thought liberals valued liberty, apparently you aren't a liberal.

[Name removed]

319. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solon]

322. He wails about "Big Government liberals"...

because of our economic policies. Republicans are even bigger supporters of controlling content EVERYWHERE than Democrats are, so lay that to rest please. We get all worked up when a Democrat sides with social conservatives on BS issues like this. Hell, I'm defending an industry here on one very narrow subject, because an attempt at regulating it could have profound effects on other forms of expression.

At the same time, I wouldn't defend this industry, or any other, for monopolistic practices(Microsoft), or outsourcing(Can you believe that Nintendo actually manufactured the N64 in the states, think of the Japanese workers who lost jobs over that!:)). Hell, I think the industry needs unionized workers(EA sucks ass), etc. etc.

This industry does need reform, but through economic regulations, not social engineering. Let's look at problems we can actually solve, not ones that absolutely require a Constitutional Amendment to solve, even though the problem itself is ambigious and inconclusive at best.

[MrBenchley]

324. Rush wails about them because he's a right wing fuckwit

who's trying to defend the indefensible....

"Let's look at problems we can actually solve, not ones that absolutely require a Constitutional Amendment to solve"
Hahahahaha.....that is rich. We need a Constitutional amendment for gamers to put pressure on racism in their community instead of looking the other way or denying that it's there??

For that matter, it's not clear that we'd need any change in the Constitution to have a hate speech law, given that there are accepted common sense restrictions on free speech.

[Solon]

325. I don't know if you heard....

Judge: Game over for Illinois ban
Court rules state's reasoning for video game ban insufficient

Friday, December 2, 2005; Posted: 10:51 p.m. EST (03:51 GMT)

SPRINGFIELD, Illinois (AP) -- A federal judge ruled Friday that Illinois' restrictions on the sale of violent and sexually explicit video games to minors are unconstitutional and barred the state from enforcing the law.

State officials "have come nowhere near" demonstrating that the law passes constitutional muster, said U.S. District Court Judge Matthew Kennelly.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/12/02/game.ban.ap/index.html

[MrBenchley]

326. Yeah, i heard....

Big fucking deal.

[Solon]

332. You do realize that ALL laws that tried to rate content...

on any medium have been traditionally struck down, this law isn't precedent setting, its following precedent instead.

[Name removed]

334. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

258. Amazing that something so simple

seems to be such a mystery to anyone, much less someone claiming to be progressive, isn't it?

[endarkenment]

121. Real Violence YES

Fake Violence NO.

Real War on real people who really die? Fine with this piece of corporate shit. Fake war games where nobody gets hurt? Horrors. Must Stop Now. Ban. Bad.

Got it. What a piece of pork.

[jumptheshadow]

128. You forget something

Video game manufacturers are as corporate as they get. They will push the envelope to make profits as much as any other greedy and antisocial business. A little level-headedness is called for here.

[LiberalGuy000]

123. she's a drone

I don't think we can expect anything original out of Senator Clinton until after she loses her bid to become President.

[OKthatsIT]

175. LOL...lame dame

[madmark]

126. Her and Leiberman are going to fight a videogame; and not

fight this foolish counterproductive war in Iraq.

[Chicago Democrat]

129. Reason #115 Why Hillary should be opposed! !

Hillary I despise you! You are a kanker sore on the penis of the Democratic Party! Correction, you are a dripping, burning case of CLAP on the vagina of the Democratic Polity.


Please go away! Please retire! A dead penguin is better than you!

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jumptheshadow]

146. Oh yeah...

Stand up for the rights of video game corporations. They will laugh all the way to the bank at the noobs who are blindly defending them.

[MrBenchley]

149. Amazing isn't it?

Talk about corporate whores.....

[jumptheshadow]

161. Kneejerk reaction vs. sound thinking

Most of the people in this debate are operating strictly from the gut. That includes the addicted sockpuppet gamers, who remind me of the gun nuts and the angry, hardcore smokers who can't discuss this topic intelligently or critically because they are too emotional about it. It includes the non-gamer prudes who argue that video games are inherently evil or destructive without knowing what they are really talking about. It includes the right-wing fundies who have been pretty successful at thwarting objective, scientific debates in the public sector and who have left-wing counterparts who are all too willing to oblige them in degrading the level of discourse.

Videogames are a business. They should be regulated like a business. Their business practices -- how they deal with customers, the legal issues that come up (and are still somewhat buried), the issue of whether minority customers are discriminated against -- all should be approached from the standpoint that you are dealing with businesses.

[MrBenchley]

162. Actually

like the gun issue, the closer you look the sleazier it gets....

For example, I haven't addressed the blatant racism of the Grand Theft Auto game (except for the throwaway comment to the guy who's cheesed off that anybody dared mention it aloud). Or the games that encourage xenophobia.

And for those who want to address morality...what does it say about videogamers that they encourage cheating while playing their silly games?

http://vgstrategies.about.com/

Say what you want about Monopoly or Scrabble, you don't see their fans eagerly embracing cheating as an acceptable strategy.

"Videogames are a business. They should be regulated like a business."
Exactly so.

[jumptheshadow]

163. You're tarring people with a broad brush there

Yes, it's true that there are some cheaters in games. But there also is a solid core of very upright, honest people who won't stand for cheating.

We run a very healthy small guild that includes a prosecutor, a firefighter, an emergency management guy (county level), a technician, a translation company manager, a musician and some of our kids. The thing I have loved about Dark Age of Camelot is its focus on game characters that complement each other's skills and that reward you for working together as a team toward a goal. It's a great life lesson.

My 13-year-old niece fell in love with the game. Her mom would probably let her play it even though I am concerned about the game siphoning time from homework.

Ultimately my niece won't get the game for Christmas because I don't want her to be in an environment where the use of racial slurs is condoned in any way, shape or form by the game's owners.

The video game industry is a little like the Wild West right now. I prefer a little more regulation.

[MrBenchley]

164. Hell-o-o-o-o-o

I didn't make up that site. Put "video game" and "cheats" in google and you'll get EIGHT MILLION hits...and the entire first page is all sites just like the one I linked to.

I didn't say everybody cheated--but it's pretty clear that cheating isn't exactly uncommon, or condemned by other players.

"I don't want her to be in an environment where the use of racial slurs is condoned in any way, shape or form by the game's owners."
Do you mean the people who manufacture the game? I'm not clear here.

"I prefer a little more regulation"
I see no reason not to regulate the industry.

[jumptheshadow]

165. It's like any group

You have your good folks and your not-so-good folks. I have talked to people in-game, and have seen long threads on gaming boards that were very critical of cheaters.

I don't want my niece to be in an environment where the game manufacturers refuse to boot players who use racial epithets.

I know you want to regulate the industry. I am just trying to explain to you that many types of people play video games, and within the games, you can find some great little communities with very high ethical standards.

[MrBenchley]

166. Except that

as nearly as I can tell, the game makers themselves encourage the cheating.

"I don't want my niece to be in an environment where the game manufacturers refuse to boot players who use racial epithets."
I guess I'm vapor-locked or something. I'm still not sure who or what you're talking about. If it's any consolation, I agree with your decision 100%.

[jumptheshadow]

168. Explanation

The manufacturer of my video game won't boot white players who use the word "nigger" in-game to describe black people or as a synonym for "ignorant." I couldn't disagree with this policy more, and won't give my niece the game because of it.

As far as game makers encouraging cheating, well, I don't know about any other games. Mythic boots and suspends players who use hacks, in fact this is considered a far greater transgression than racist language used by players.

[MrBenchley]

169. Thanks...

And I agree that sort of thing should not be condoned.

I'm glad at least one game maker is opposed to cheating. Again, though, I wonder about what sort of people are too lazy to actually PLAY...and what they're like in their other interactions with the world.

[Occulus]

178. Do you consider noclip mode "cheating"? n/t

[MrBenchley]

179. Geeze, nally....

You got me there....because I sure don't give a shit whether one particular form of joystick twiddling is cheating, or not, clearly there's no cheating going on </sarcasm>.

[Occulus]

180. You cared enough to include it in the three posts above mine.

Soooo..... now, when actually asked exactly what you consider "cheating", suddenly, you don't care to answer.

Interesting, and very very telling.

By the way- you're very out of date. It's not called a "joystick" anymore, and hasn't been for years.

Never mind that a "joystick" is generally not used at all in games that have a noclip mode.

And you still didn't answer the question- you just skated right around it.

"because I sure don't give a shit whether one particular form of joystick twiddling is cheating, or not"

But you cared enough to say this:

"I didn't say everybody cheated--but it's pretty clear that cheating isn't exactly uncommon, or condemned by other players."

And this:

"as nearly as I can tell, the game makers themselves encourage the cheating."

And this!!

"I'm glad at least one game maker is opposed to cheating. Again, though, I wonder about what sort of people are too lazy to actually PLAY...and what they're like in their other interactions with the world."

So which is it? And what, exactly, do you consider "cheating"?

Bonus points if you can name the game the following cheats come from:

iddqd
god
noclip
map <name>

[MrBenchley]

181. Yeah, I did....

So tell us, nally....are you really claiming that the 8 million sites that tell joystick twiddlers how to cheat on their dreary and simpleminded timesinks are all LYING when they say they do?

[Occulus]

183. No.

I'm saying YOU do not know enough about the subject matter to know that these "cheats" you speak so derisively of are actually FEATURES, intentionally put in there so players can do things like take screenshots from areas they normally can't get into, use weapons/ammo/objects not accessible from the part of the game they are using them from, NOT "die" when getting swarmed upon if an area proves too difficult for the gamer to get past so they can see the rest of the game they bought, and on and on.

YOU are using the same "dreary and simplminded timesink" I use to play games right now. It's called a PC.

You outright lied about how many there are, and you lied about it twice:

"Results 1 - 10 of about 2,710,000 for "video game" +cheats. (0.19 seconds)"

Which tells me you aren't even bothering to try to meaningfully contribute to any of this.

You haven't answered even ONE of the direct questions I've asked you, either on this thread or the one yesterday on which you laughed at me for hitting alert. THAT thread got locked.

Are you TRYING to stifle discussion here?

[MrBenchley]

186. So in other words, cheating isn't cheating

when it's video games....

By that logic, if I pull extra cards out of my sleeve while we're playing poker, it must be hunky dory. After all, then I can make hands I can't normally make.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22video+games%22+cheats&btnG=Google+Search

Results 1 - 10 of about 8,110,000 for "video games" cheats. (0.14 seconds) 

[Occulus]

279. It's not cheating if it's an INTENDED FEATURE OF THE GAME ITSELF

Jesus Christ on a fucking sidecar! You have to actually CODE IN THE CHEATS. They don't happen on their own.

You claimed elsewhere here you have knowledge of programming. If you did, you would never have said what you just did.

Oh, and by the way, they aren't necessarily cheats; they're also used for debugging and playtesting which, if you had even the slightest knowledge of the subject at hand, you would already know.

[MrBenchley]

292. Hahahaha.....

"They don't happen on their own."
The card didn't get up my sleeve by accident either.

[Occulus]

345. You're ignoring something else here...

Your poker "analogy" doesn't work because the rules of poker do not allow for cheating.

The rules for most FPS games DO allow for it, and for the rules themselves to be modified.

If you had an understanding of gaming engines and how they are handled by developers, you would know this. Usually, it's important for developers and playtesters to be able to "cheat" by walking through walls or turning off damage, so they can properly test the textures and models and make certain there are no defects from any angle.

A good example of this is called "Z-fighting". When this occurs, it looks BAD. Really bad. Sometimes, the only way to find it is to see the game from outside the map, which requires that the noclip code be coded into the engine.

Further, gamers themselves use this for legitimate purposes as well, usually when designing their own maps.

In other words, they aren't just cheats; they are also dev tools. By putting a card up your sleeve, you ARE breaking the established rules. By using a noclip code or a god code, you are changing the rules of the game in a way the engine itself explicitly provides for.

Your analogy is inapt and inept. If it worked, poker rules would have an Option: you may hide cards up your sleeve if the dealer agrees to allow the rules to be changed.

[Name removed]

192. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

195. Hahaha...yeah it would be a frigging shame

if an attack on a respected Democrat on Democratic Underground got stopped by a few facts.

[Name removed]

282. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

290. It's a Hillary Clinton thread, nally....

[Occulus]

330. ...about her stance on video games.

IOW, it's a gaming thread.

[MrBenchley]

336. It's a Hillary thread....

now go cry about it to somebody who gives a shit.

[Occulus]

341. Looks more like it's become a thread about you n/t

[MrBenchley]

343. Only because some people

have descended to half-assed personal attacks....

[crankybubba]

346. pot meet kettle.......

going after the 1st amendment now huh. got tired of bashing the second amend. new slogan for you


benchley: dismantling the constitution one amendment at a time.

you may not have any freedom but at least you are safe. for the record i wont let my kids play gta or other games of that type. It;s my job as a parent to regulate what they play not the govt.

[TheWatcher]

352. The only person who has made personal attacks is you.

Referring to all gamers as "joystick twiddlers.", telling everyone to go cry to someone who gives a shit.

Most people in this thread have tried to have a reasonable, logical debate about this issue, but you have mostly been childish, overly defensive, dodging, and it is increasingly apparent that you simply hate games and gamers, and you are so completely and totally ignorant and befret of this subject matter you attack so passionately, you really can't form much of a reasonable, logical debate on it anyway.

The biggest tragedy of this thread is that people wasted so much time giving your drivel attention.

Have you ever even PLAYED a Video Game?

Because you certainly don't seem to have much knowledge about them.

Someone PLEASE hit the Reset Button on this person.

He makes about as much sense as ET for the 2600.

The funny part is he probably has no fucking idea what that is.

[Occulus]

174. Funny how GTA is the only game you ever mention

Care to cite another example? Or is GTA the only video game you can refer to by name?

[MrBenchley]

184. You want another little bundle of video joy?

"Recently, Resistance Records, the biggest name in hate music stepped into the video game market big-time. And it chose Martin Luther King Day to unveil its new advertising campaign for its new video, "Ethnic Cleansing." "

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=13023

Must be harmless...after all, it's just fake violence </sarcasm>.

[_testify_]

196. Yeah, cuz that game will be available at EBgames or for rent

at your local Blockbuster.

:eyes:

Wanna try again?

[MrBenchley]

198. So what's wrong with THAT game?

After all, to hear our joystick twiddlers, it's just IMAGINARY violence and good fun that the rest of us don't understand.

"theres a story to be told, theirs a conflict to be resolved, theres a challenge to be overcome. its not just violence for violence sake"...."it's a lot less dangerous than dodge ball"....."Kids (and adults) can tell fantasy from fiction"....."it's usually much more about the strategy of the game, the visuals, and the story than it is simply about killing people"....

[Qibing Zero]

200. Do you expect us to know that without ever playing it?

Or even having seen it being played?

You're certainly asking a lot from someone who puts nothing else out there other than things he reads on the interweb!

I know nearly nothing about this said game, but that doesn't mean I think it should be outlawed. The poster before this was saying that it won't be an easy to find game, so you don't have to worry about it corrupting the youth, or whatever drivel you were going to spill out about it once you decided to actually stop insulting people and attempt to make a point.

[MrBenchley]

201. So does that seem like the kind of game you want to play?

"The poster before this was saying that it won't be an easy to find game"
So if it was easier to find, it would be just dan-dan-dandy?

[Name removed]

204. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

208. Funny, I feel quite happy with MY substance....

So is your objection to the game only that it isn't readily available?

"You want to actually take a stance on said issue and defend that stance"
I'm doing just that.

[Occulus]

277. Screenshots available here:

http://www.resistance.com/ethniccleansing/promos.htm

I won't be playing this game primarily because it looks like a crappy game to begin with. It's billed as "the most politically incorrect game ever made", so I know what to expect from it already.

Truthfully, this is a terrible example; it looks to be up to the technological standards of, oh, about seven or eight years ago. And I don't even want to know why "msvbvm60.dll" is the download on the promo page.

This looks to me like a fake, but for the screenshots- which is hardly "proof". Clicking "home" appears to take one to the entrance of a porno site, and oh, IT WAS LAST UPDATED IN 2002.

So, if there had ever been the smallest scintilla of a chance that this ever was "popular", I and everyone else here would have already heard about and condemned it by now.

Try again.

[MrBenchley]

288. Yeah, that's why it's so wrong--it's not advanced enough

"it looks to be up to the technological standards of, oh, about seven or eight years ago"
So if it was more advanced it would be hunky dory....hokay.

[Occulus]

327. As usual, you left out the part of my post that made the rest of the point

"So, if there had ever been the smallest scintilla of a chance that this ever was "popular", I and everyone else here would have already heard about and condemned it by now."

You criticize people who even express legitimate criticism about other things wrong with it that aren't what you find wrong with it.

Even a seven-year-old would have figured out that I was agreeing that this was a bad game in all respects. However, since I didn't point out specifically your own little pet issue, you decided that I was actually okay with everything else about it.

NOT TRUE! Not by a long shot.

[MrBenchley]

338. I didn't leave out anyhting important....

"everyone else here would have already heard about and condemned it "
Really? Why is that, nally?

"Even a seven-year-old would have figured out that I was agreeing"
Yeah, it shows.

"your own little pet issue"
Yes, in the entire world, I'm the only one at all concerned with racism and racist violence </sarcasm>. (I don't doubt, however, that people in the gaming world look the other way and pretend they don't see any, based on the evidence here.)

[Occulus]

347. Because it's racist and shouldn't have even been made.

Happy now?

[_testify_]

203. Not all games are created equal.

I hope you would agree that there are varying amounts of sex & violence in all of our mediums, and that perhaps it would not be so ridiculous to
label each game for its content individually.

If I published a book about the mobster/gangster lifestyle, and it was popular, would you refer to those people who enjoyed it as page twiddlers?

So, as a discriminating adult, do I or do I not have the right to purchase and enjoy anything I can obtain legally? Violent videogames should not be available to children, but what about me? I'm an adult. I *like* violent videogames. I *like* to read about the raw things in life like sex and violence. I *like* to watch movies about them, too.

And I have not physically struck or threatened to strike anyone since I was eleven years old (I'm 30 now.) I'm capable of coherent thought. I go to work every day. I have a wonderful family. I like to read. I like to write. I go bowling with co-workers. I like to travel when I can. I vote Democratic. Where did the videogames fuck ME up?

[MrBenchley]

210. Wow, lots of dodging and ducking, but no real answer to MY questions....

"If I published a book about the mobster/gangster lifestyle, and it was popular, would you refer to those people who enjoyed it as page twiddlers?"
Go ahead and see. I hope the book would have more content than "and then he machinegunned that guy, and then he machinegunned that guy and then he machine-gunned this guy and then he machine gunned that guy and...."

"So, as a discriminating adult, do I or do I not have the right to purchase and enjoy anything I can obtain legally?"
So are you telling us you would buy THAT game? Or that it's hunky dory for somebody else to?

[_testify_]

217. It IS hunky dory for another ADULT to buy and play that game.

Can I make that clearer? As long as it is okay to read Mein Kampf, and march in a Klan rally, it's okay to play that game.

It makes you an asshole, but even assholes have rights.

Do you think I would be a member of this discussion forum and play that game? However, lets explore that idea for a moment...suppose I did pick up the controller and give it a whirl...does that make me in favor of ethnic cleansing?

I bet in your reality it does. So lets round up all those historians who've read Mein Kampf. They're obviously Nazi sympathizers.

[MrBenchley]

219. Wow....about time you answered....

"As long as it is okay to read Mein Kampf, and march in a Klan rally, it's okay to play that game."
You know many people who think its okay to march in a Klan rally?

"Do you think I would be a member of this discussion forum and play that game?"
Hard to tell...we've got folks here who not only don't mind racisst content in other games but scream like banshees in rage if anyone mentions that there IS racist content. And it's been like pulling teeth to get even this slight condemnation of this odious game. The main objection raised so far has been that the game is hard to buy.

"suppose I did pick up the controller and give it a whirl...does that make me in favor of ethnic cleansing?"
Gee, let's explore that. What sort of person SEES a game called "ethnic cleansing" and thinks "Why, this looks like good harmless fun"?

"I bet in your reality it does."
Of course, IN reality, where I am, there actually ARE racist pieces of shit trying to spread their odious message.

"So lets round up all those historians who've read Mein Kampf. They're obviously Nazi sympathizers."
Yeah, and clearly this is a video game only scholars and academics would play...

[Qibing Zero]

222. You're seriously dillusional....

Yes, a LOT of us think it's okay for someone to march in a Klan rally. Would we do it ourselves? Fuck no. Would we befriend anyone who would do it? I would hope not. However, are we going to respect free speech rights because we'd like them for ourself as well? Definitely.

[MrBenchley]

227. Geeze....

"a LOT of us think it's okay for someone to march in a Klan rally"
Wow....looks like "okay" means something else to gamers than it does to the rest of us.

"are we going to respect free speech rights"
Evidently not, if anyone criticizes video games.

[Qibing Zero]

231. Okay means legal. Simple as that.

And yeah, I've been trying to revoke your right to say anything bad about videogames this whole time! :eyes:

[MrBenchley]

237. "Okay" does NOT mean ""legal"

It means "assenting to" or "agreeing with"....

"I've been trying to revoke your right to say anything bad about videogames"
Remind me, who was it said about my posts "Either he has no clue what he's talking about (most likely), or he's just trying to troll the thread to the ground." Oh yeah, that was YOU.

[Qibing Zero]

245. That's exactly what's happening

Tell me how I'm trying to revoke your right by saying that?

And FFS, in the circumstance we were using it in, okay meant legal and you know it.

[MrBenchley]

249. Not so....

For that matter, how many "shut up Hillary" posts in this thread?

And "okay" does not mean "legal", no matter how badly you want to spin it.

[Qibing Zero]

252. Who's the one doing the spinning here?

You have serious issues if you can't understand something this simple.

When we say marching in a Klan rally is 'okay', we mean it's okay that it's legal. Yeesh!

[MrBenchley]

260. The one trying to pretend "okay" means "legal"....

[_testify_]

225. Good gravy.

1. No I do not know many people who march in Klan rallies. This has what, exactly, to do with our discussion? Those people that I don't know, I still believe have a right to believe whatever crap they want. That goes for you too.

2. I'll concede you that point. I don't know you and vice versa, and I have seen plenty of questionable post material here. That said, what kind of condemnation are you after? Do you want me to say people who play a game called 'Ethnic Cleansing' ought to be arrested? Publicly humiliated? Sent to hell?

3. My point was not that it was 'good harmless fun'. My point was interacting with something objectionable doesn't make me objectionable by proxy. I am still a fully-functioning, well-adjusted, productive little worker bee.

4. You live in Jersey, so I'll leave that one alone. (Just kidding)

5. You missed the point of that completely. I am suggesting that any inference you make about a person based on a videogame they have played is faulty at best, if not downright irresponsible.

Since I know you will respond with more vague accusations of racism, idiocy and other hullaballoo, I don't believe there is anything productive that is going to come out of this conversation. Plus, I have to go home and gun down zombie cops with my Nazi-era codpiece cannon.

[MrBenchley]

232. I'll say....

" No I do not know many people who march in Klan rallies. This has what, exactly, to do with our discussion?"
YOU were the one who brought "marching in Klan rallies" up back in post 217. You even said it was "okay".

"what kind of condemnation are you after?"
So. If I didn't bring up objections, the game would be hunkydory to you?

"My point was interacting with something objectionable doesn't make me objectionable by proxy."
Really? Opinons vary. I certainly would find anyone who reveled in this sort of thing objectionable.

"I am suggesting that any inference you make about a person based on a videogame they have played is faulty at best, if not downright irresponsible."
Geeze, I don't find it all irresponsible or faulty to point out that racists do racist things.

"vague accusations of racism, idiocy and other hullaballoo"
Nothing vague about this odious game at all, chief.

"I don't believe there is anything productive that is going to come out of this conversation. Plus, I have to go home and gun down zombie cops with my Nazi-era codpiece cannon."
Well, as long as you have something "productive" to do. (snciker)

[Solon]

265. Well, in that case...

I'll just code a game I'll call "Cracker Hunt" as a counterpunch to these racist assholes. Would that make you happy?

[Name removed]

289. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solon]

297. I get my panties in a bunch over all sorts of issues...

especially issues that don't matter at all, and are a basic waste of time, and could be damaging to others with far reaching and unforseen consequences. I get pissed off at a whole lot of stupid shit that politicians spew about things they know nothing of.

[gulfcoastliberal]

269. Right. Like Citigroup, maybe?

Whom Hillary gave some quid pro quo with her yes vote on the so-called "bankruptcy reform" bill- which if screwing over workers in favor of credit card companies. Too bad for the victims of Katrina, right? Guess they should've been more responsible and not bought a home in an area where a natural disaster could occur. But that's not selling out and being a corporate whore, right? Right.

[Name removed]

349. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lwbaby]

131. As a NYS resident ..

I applaud Sen. Clinton's efforts.

How many of you dinging her are residents of NYS?

Say what you will about her (and I don't agree with her aquiecense re Iraq) but if you live in NYS she is a kick-ass advocate for us!

NYS has issues re porn violence, especially in NYC. It's a fact, not a stereotype. Sen. Clinton is at least attempting to address the issue because it really needs to be addressed rather than shoved underneath some political scatter rug. Beyond this recent issue, she has done a darn good job in general representing NYS.

Again, I ask, how many of you posting here are NYS residents and if you are, what do you think of Sen. Clinton's representation of our state thus far?

[IndianaGreen]

134. Hillary can stay in New York forever, as a US Senator!

Hillary should never be allowed to become President!

[lwbaby]

136. Not to worry, that will prolly never happen m.

because she is so polarizing. Too bad because IMO she has mellowed with age and become more internationally savvy.

[Chicago Democrat]

135. I'm happy with her as a NY Senator and totally support her staying there.

I hope she cooperates with Feingold administration's investigations of War Criminals. No, she's fine as a NY Senator, they always end up alienating the rest of the nation for reasons that I don't fully understand.


For me, its all about crushing her Presidential ambitions, since she seems to be acting like a candidate for 08. Maybe its just running for Senate (why does she even need to since noone is running against her?) We need a anti-war Moderate Democratin 08. Like Feingold.

[lwbaby]

137. I agree with you there...

Hillary seems to be pandering to mods who are simply afraid of getting out the war w/o dignity (as if anyting about war could be dignified...)

I do like her though. And I'd vote for her over any Repub.

[Chicago Democrat]

138. I would too (vote for her over any Republican)

Big love to you dear fellow Democrat. United we stand!

[merwin]

139. IMO, we need more anti-war dems in congress/senate than as president.

It's congress that gives the authority to go to war. Hillary is as likely to push an attack another country as any other democratic candidate we're looking at for 2008. Yes, she'll vote with the majority on it, which is why she makes a less-than-adequate Senator at times.

However, as President, I think she would do pretty well. Contrary to popular belief, the President doesn't do most of the deciding of going to war, congress does. The constitution was written that way for a reason... to prevent ONE person from making the decision.

It just so happens that the president AND congress AND the supreme court are pretty much one body now, which makes it seem like it was Bush's decision to go to war.

[Chicago Democrat]

142. Interesting post on fault and power.

I hadn't considered Congress the main villain. It was that vote that caused all this that's true. Utter depressing tho isnt it?

[merwin]

143. That thought came to me recently when I thought about the people in

congress that keep supporting the war. Without them, there is no war :-)

[LiberalGuy000]

140. porn violence?

Could you please explain what you're talking about, and how it's something that especially affects New York City?

[lwbaby]

141. Here's a link ..

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Hillary-Clinton-versus-Rockstar-Games-4812.shtml

[MrBenchley]

153. Some video game defenders

want to compare their odious toys to violent movies....

But how many people who watch Scarface on DVD (for example) replay the violent scenes over and over for hours at a time, giggling over the murders?

[Qibing Zero]

190. Don't get out much, do you?

1. A video game is just a video game.
2. A movie is just a movie.
3. Of course there are people who watch Scarface and replay the violent scenes and giggle. Hell, I knew someone who could repeat the entire movie, line for line, at the age of 11. How's that for you? Video games are so so evil!

[MrBenchley]

216. Actually I do....

"Of course there are people who watch Scarface and replay the violent scenes and giggle"
They must be real charmers too....

[Qibing Zero]

224. Yep.

Would you like to try and offer up another argument for why video games are so much worse than movies?

[MrBenchley]

238. I'm happy to let the evidence speak for itself....

[Solon]

270. So the fact that we have the lowest violent crime rate for teenagers...

in Thirty years doesn't register, right? How about the fact that the year the decline started was also the year the first truly gratutiously violent game was released, that game would be the first DOOM BTW.

[MrBenchley]

291. Not unless you can prove causality

which I really doubt you can.

[Solon]

295. Not causality...

but then again I don't have to, that's the beauty of it you see. It people like you that claim that video games cause people to commit crimes, so the burden of proof is on you, not me. The most I can come up with is correlation, but then again, the question remains, are video games a contributor or a result of our culture?

[MrBenchley]

301. Yeah, "that's the beauty of it" all right...

"It people like you that claim that video games cause people to commit crimes"
Then you should have no problem showing us which post I made that claim in. But in fact, the claim was yours...you were the one who dredged up "the lowest violent crime rate for teenagers in Thirty years" in this context and then tied it to the introduction of violent video games.

All I was remarking on was the relative charm of gamers compared to the folks I know who are moveigoers.

By the way, I'm also sure you can prove that the crime rate wouldn't be lower still thanks to things like gun control and anti-drug efforts if it were not for these violent timesinks.

"then again, the question remains, are video games a contributor or a result of our culture?"
You mean you think they just happen by accident?

[Solon]

305. Let me see if I can get through to you on this at least...

Alright, just to make it clear, you don't think that video games affect a person's violence level? OK, now onto the last thing. I don't know about you, but let's see if I can expand on my last question. It is my belief that human culture glorifies violence, and this was well before video games came on the scene. With the 4 millenia or so of human civilization, one constant is the same throughout all that history, we like, no LOVE, conflict. Especially conflicts that draw blood. Hell, many like the sight of blood, a few get sick from it, but as a race, humanity likes it. Why else do people slow down at car accidents, or go to war so quickly? Same could be said for all our mediums of art, religion, literature, movies, radio, and yes, most recently, video games. Why is this such a surprise, and why are people so shocked by it?

This current generation of people are no different than any in the past, the only difference is the technology and interactivity, but really I don't see much of a difference between players from my generation playing "Gunsmoke" at the arcades, and those of my fathers generation playing "Cowboys and Indians". Hell, I would say that Gunsmoke was an improvement, at least there was an objective way to determine if you hit something or not, instead of kids getting into fights arguing as to who shot who.

[Name removed]

308. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solon]

310. Actually, the data on crime rates backs me up...

By the way, it wasn't a rationalization, but an explanation. People like to externalize on what they view as current problems onto anything that doesn't focus on themselves. I'm not saying progress hasn't been made, only a fool would say that, but it is an uphill battle, especially against violence. The problem is this, despite all the progress made, the 20th century, the one we just passed, was the bloodiest in human history. It wasn't the bloodiest because people are generally more violent, instead our technological innovations allowed us to kill more efficiently than ever before. And the 21st century is turning out to be possibly as bloody or even worse than the 20th.

The thing that pisses me off the most is this, attacking imaginary problems, something we humans are good at, solves nothing and wastes time. This whole canard about video games, and problems that they may pose on others, is an imaginary problem if I ever heard of one. We have to face it that within each and every single one of us, we are capable of being both a saint or a devil, its that simple really. If you want to combat violence, then you have to go to the source of the problem, and attacking mediums that, for all we know, actually alleviate said problems is not the answer. The source of violence, and our glorification of it, comes to two things, perpetual poverty, and power distribution, or lack thereof.

People are considerable less violent in societies that allow for peaceful means of showing dissatisfaction. This includes guaranteeing rights to speech, representative government, freedom of belief, and a strong social safety net.

[MrBenchley]

315. So it IS your claim, not mine....

just so we're clear. Now be sure and prove causation...or show us why it would not be still lower without these disgraceful games.

"I'm not saying progress hasn't been made"
That is EXACTLY what you were saying in the past post.

"The thing that pisses me off the most is this, attacking imaginary problems, something we humans are good at, solves nothing and wastes time. "
Funny, here's a thread attacking a respected Democratic politician because she is proposing regulation of a corrupt industry that peddles games that solve nothing and waste time. It's certainly not "imaginary" that the game manufacturers have lied to the public, have failed to live up to the voluntary standards they agreed to, include racist and unsavory content, or foster bigotry and racism among their players.

"attacking mediums that, for all we know, actually alleviate said problems "
Now that IS rich.

[Solon]

317. So what do you want, to ban all amusments that offend your...

sensibilities. First, its ONE company that allegedly lied, and for that you paint, with a broad freaking brush, that the entire industry is corrupt, based on that alone. Then you claim the industry promotes racism because ONE company that peddles in racist music decides to make a blatantly racist game.

Using your standards of evidence and accusations, let me paint some broad brushes, first the entire music industry, from Classical music to Rap is racist to the core, because of the company mentioned above. In addition to that, the entire Movie industry in Hollywood is also racist to the core because of "Birth of a Nation" which also happened to have been a hit, BTW. How about another example, the book Publishing industry is also equally corrupt publishing such trash as "The Turner Diaries".

Who here is being irrational again? Do the accusations in my second paragraph ring true or false to you?

[MrBenchley]

318. As I've said more than once

I see no reason why this odious industry shouldn't be strictly regulated.

"First, its ONE company that allegedly lied, and for that you paint, with a broad freaking brush, that the entire industry is corrupt, based on that alone."
(sigh)...Golly, if only there had been something about that in the news story that kicked off this round of silly Hillary-bashing.

http://www.mediafamily.org/research/vgrc_index.shtml

"Who here is being irrational again?"
I suspect it's the person who said "the beauty" of his claim that video games cut crime was that he wasn't making it, after he accused me of saying something I hadn't said.

[Solon]

320. I take what mediafamily.org says with a huge grain of salt...

apparently they like inflammatory language, vague accusations, and blaming the manufacturers for retailers' failings. Hey, the ratings are there, the industry is now supporting it, but if the retailers don't enforce there own policies regarding any age restricted material, what are the manufacturers supposed to do? Another reason I question the validity of their results are these two quotes from their page:

"Especially in the context of a growing body of research showing the link between violent games and real-world aggression, parents need to open their eyes to the reality that their kids' favorite games are not appropriate for children. They are rated M for Mature."

"Every child who plays video games is undergoing a powerful developmental experiment, the results of which we do not yet fully comprehend."

OK, dissecting the first quote, first, they don't bother citing any truly scientific studies to support the assertion, that's strike one, and second, they blame the manufacturers more than parents, even while lamenting on parent's not knowing that the games are inappropriate for children while stating they are clearly labeled. Hypocrisy anyone?

The second quote, which, in context, was the first sentence on the page in italics, is conjecture of the most ignorant form. First, if we are actually going to be serious about this, there has been 20+ years of children, many of them grown up and adults now, that have played video games. You would think that researchers would actually have some inkling as to whether video games have a "profound" effect at all on child development, beyond increased hand-eye coordination.

[MrBenchley]

321. And I take what you say with an even bigger one....

"they don't bother citing any truly scientific studies to support the assertion"
So few people bother asserting what is common knowledge. As we saw somewhere else in this thread, out of thousands of studies on the subject, only a tiny handful have failed to show that correlation.

"they blame the manufacturers more than parents"
No shit. You mean you think the parents add content to the games?

[Solon]

323. Parents control access...

They can pull the plug, they can look through the kids library of games, they can ban the games from their house, etc. etc.

Second, where is this post you talk about? This thread is getting to damn unwieldy for me to look through it all.

[MrBenchley]

328. But they don't control content....

and as we see, the rating system is a joke that the industry is ignoring.

[Solon]

331. If the industry was ignoring it...

Then the labels wouldn't be there in the first place. They based their rating systems on those of the movie industry, and it is the retailers' responsibility to make sure the games rated M+ and movies rated R+ are both not sold to minors. A 5 year old can go into a store and buy a rated R DVD, and the store faces no consequences, legally, the parents can't even sue if they find out, they have no legal standing. Why should video games be any different? Please keep in mind that the content of some Rated R movies far outstrip the content of even GTA: San Andreas the AO game with the hack that allows for the infamous sex minigame.

[MrBenchley]

335. The industry is ignoring it...

"A 5 year old can go into a store and buy a rated R DVD, and the store faces no consequences"
Yeah, it's wonderful to see how desperately some people will defend the indefensible.

[Occulus]

340. IF you had read the whole post you would know

that wasn't at ALL what the poster was saying.

[Solon]

348. He did read it...

at least I hope so, but I fear that it matters little. I state a fact, he quotes it out of context, then mocks those who point it out. He reminds me of a petulant 5 year old in this way.

[d_b]

144. Is it just the zombies eating people/

gangsters killing cops type games they don't like or can we get them to include military themed games like Call of Duty.

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sin]

152. It Just makes me wonder.

If Violent Video games and tv weren't around what would Hilary be trying to put a civil ban on Violent themed books maybe?

[Name removed]

154. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raster]

155. so let me get this straight, Hil's against video violence but for the

illegal, immoral violence in Iraq?

[durablend]

176. ABSO-FRICKIN-LUTELY!

Video game violence BAD BAD BAD...make Johnny go down to liquor store to shoot up the place

Real (military) violence GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD! Make Johnny go to Iraq to gun down EVUL AMERICA HATING FREEDUMB HATING TOWEL HEADS!

WTG Hill! :sarcasm:

[fujiyama]

157. Is the so called "leadership" of our party

TRYING to kill our chances with the 20-30 something male crowd?

I mean, OK, the party is already known as the 'gun grabbing' party. I guess we're the nanny state, "you can't play your video games" party as well.

Hell, I have friends that vote straight Dem and are pretty liberal, but I won't even mention this around them because it would disgust them so much that they would likely just sit out an election.

The RR isn't going to vote Dem anyways and upper middle class suburbanites are only worried about taxes and their pocket book. Hillary and the crowd thinks this plays to them. Oh, sure it applies to them because they're the crowd has disposable income on video games (who the hell can afford 500+ dollars on a video game system?)...

Sorry, I'm tired of these parents that are too stupid or too lazy to read about 50+ dollar purchases for their children. I had a nintendo and got 5 games total over the several years I played it (I upgraded once after)..My parents were great and gave games only for special occassions - Christmas and Birthday.

Some of the kids are spoiled rotten by their stupid parents. It really seems like Willy Wonka!

[MrBenchley]

160. Well, THERE'S a helluvan argument!

Yes, we ought to let a corrupt industry market violent video games to minors, because it's wrong for us to be opposed to the corrupt industry peddling real guns?

"I guess we're the nanny state"
Rush Limbaugh couldn't have said it better.

"m tired of these parents that are too stupid or too lazy to read about 50+ dollar purchases for their children"
Mega-dittoes!

[fujiyama]

275. Are these games really marketed toward minors?

I mean seriously, yes, video game magazines mention these games and the games are advertised in them...and yes they are advertised on TV.

But how do you say they are actually marketed to minors in particular?

The games themselves (like GTA) are not sold at Toys R Us or WalMart. The places usually card anyone that looks too young to buy these games. The game is rated M as it is. Any parent can see that a game with a MATURE rating is not intended for little Johnny.

BTW, we still allow liquor ads on TV...and these give the impression that drinking is cool. Why not ban these as well? And underage drinking is bigger problem than video game violence (especially when combined with driving - that actually does kill). We also allow R rated movie ads on TV. Why not ban those as well? The simple fact is that video games ARE an art form. You may find it offensive but it is protected.

Either way, this is pandering at its finest (or worst). Neither have little to say about REAL violence and death in Iraq. They are worried about digitized pixels that move around. I lost respect for Lieberman long ago. He's nothing but scum. Hillary, OTOH has shown to be a spineless and pathetic politician, running whichever way she believes can score a few points with upper middle class suburbanites. It's clear that issues to real working people don't matter - after all, it's working people's kids that are going off to die in Iraq. It's not the parents that have the luxury of worrying about the violence in the game they bought jr that has to worry about Jr. getting his limbs blown off.

Sorry, we have a chance to take both congress and I somehow don't think this is anywhere near the top of issues effecting people. If it is, people are stupid. And yes, I mean that sincerely.

Maybe it's just a different mentality. It amazes me that parents will spend that much money on something they are clueless about, when a rating is IN PLACE, then have the gall to whine about the content later. That shows bad parenting and laziness...and that's beyong the scope of what the government can fix.

[MrBenchley]

296. They're certainly being sold to minors....

"Any parent can see that a game with a MATURE rating is not intended for little Johnny."
And of course, games are only sold with patental supervision...in a pig's eye.

"I somehow don't think this is anywhere near the top of issues effecting people. If it is, people are stupid."
Not like the intellectual elite twiddling their joysticks and gunning down enemies (snicker).

"It's clear that issues to real working people don't matter"
Funny, most of the real working people I know don't much care for their children getting a dose of racist, violent, mindless swill, ladled out by an industry that is failing to live up to its obligations.

[JackDragna]

353. Video game operators have no obligations to live up to.

They put the warnings on the games. That's all they're responsible for, period.

[noonwitch]

158. Violent video games are bad for kids

Of course, they shouldn't be banned for adults, but some of those games should never be played or viewed by anyone under 15 or so, and probably not by any unstable kid between 15-18.

I do think this is a matter where the government's involvement should be limited to making parents aware of what videos are inappropriate for their children. There shouldn't need to be any laws about it.

[JackDragna]

354. How do you explain the Japanese and South Koreans?

The Japanese and South Koreans play even more video games than we do, with the same level of violence and adult material. Yet, their societal problem with violence is a centilla of ours. I find it much more likely our problems stem not from video games making us violent, but a love of violence mirrored in the things we value as a society.

[Maggie_May]

159. I am really getting sick of this shit

I am a mother of 3 and I can police my own kids thank you very much! Their is so much more my tax dollars can be wasted on than this. Bring Our Troops Home!!!!

[Jed Dilligan]

167. Hillary is on the verge

of blathering herself into total irrelevance.

[Tyler Durden]

171. Let's not bitch about REAL DEAD GUYS...

NO, NO, NO! Let's get all hot and bothered about FAKE DEAD GUYS.

Was this woman REALLY married to William Jefferson Clinton? I'm finding myself feeling this was a delusion of mine over time.

[VegasWolf]

172. Since Hillary seems to stay quiet about the use of White Phosphorous,

secret CIA torture jails, etc. I guess she'll just have to content herself with fake violence huh.

I guess she's so worried about attracting moderates to her campaign that she's scared shitless to DEMAND and PARTICIPATE in a full congressional examination of Bush's handling of the war and of his lies to get us into it.

Hillary, you are just not the leader for me!

[goodhue]

173. As if I needed further evidence of her DINO tendencies

Not that I'm a big fan of these games

[VegasWolf]

177. Trump to Hillary:

"Hillary, you are a bright woman, but when Bush used White Phosphorous on Iraqi civilians, operated secret CIA torture camps, lied to get us into an Oil war, you did not stand up and DEMAND and PARTICIPATE in a Congressional hearing into these matters. Instead you were content to "stay the course." and worry about lesser problems like imaginary violence."

"Hillary, you just are not the person we need for the Trump organization. Hillary, you're fired!"

[Rocknrule]

188. Don't you think they'd have better things

to worry about than whether Sonic and Mario are turning kids into mass murderers? What kind of message do you think the gov't is sending to kids with their "might makes right, USA, we own the planet, kick their ass and take their gass" attitude regarding Iraq?

[0rganism]

218. Hmm, what about the REAL VIOLENCE she voted to unleash in Iraq?

I have to say it. I know others in the thread have already mentioned it. But this just makes me ill.

It's not that a reasonable case can't be made to regulate violence in video games -- heck, we've already got a ratings system, it could be improved or more strictly enforced or whatever. Problem is, while she fusses and frets over what our kids are seeing from their video game consoles here, there are kids in Iraq watching their friends and family getting maimed, mutilated, shot, disemboweled, gibbed and fragged IN FULL 3-D HI-REZ TECHNICOLOR REALITY. I'd like her to consider how that might be affecting the next generation of Iraqis, many of whom wouldn't have the electricity to power a video game console even if they had one to play with.

Yes, I think Hillary should shift her focus to that problem for a while, as it will doubtless be a better use of her taxpayer-provided salary.

[enki23]

223. election posturing

they probably had a poll tell them avid gamers are generally not avid voters, and figured it's a good way to earn her moral crusader merit badge without pissing off a needed demographic. just a guess.

[HuffleClaw]

233. so much for her presidential plans

if this is the sort of CRAP she's planning on using to keep in the public eye she's sadly deluded to imagine that any voter under the age of about 40 will vote for her. this is the same fascist 'blame the messenger' crap we've been hearing from REPUBLICANS for ages. comic books, rock music, rap, cartoons, mtv, harry potter, teletubbies and spongebob are to blame for society's woes don't ya know! hillary is getting some REALLY bad advice from someone, i'd thought her way smarter than this.

[Lerkfish]

239. STOP THE REAL WAR, DAMMIT, YOU DLC PUNKS!

:mad:

[lenegal]

272. Thank you, couldn't have said it better myself

Hillary complaining about video games when she is still a Hawk on the Iraq war.

[TheDonkey]

273. Clinton/Lieberman 08!!!

oh please I hope not.

I hate when Democrats try to seem socially conservative by bringing up pointless battles like videogame violence.

[rickrok66]

276. Hilary - act like a Democrat dammit!

Hilary and Joey need to stick to real issues insteand of turning our party into Republican Lite.

This is a sure way to turn off the youth vote. It was great that during the last election that a lot of youth turned out for Kerry. Let's not run them off, because some clueless babyboomers want to ban the "MTV video games".

I at least listen to my kid. He plays Warhammer online. He plays and chats with kids from the UK, Germany, and Korea. Yes, that game is about violence, but he is networking with kids around the world.

It is also like someone else posted, there is more scary crap in the Bible and in Grimm's Fairy Tales than in most video games.

If you want the youth vote, the left needs to protect our rights to online privacy, online business transactions, and online recreation (music, games, and yes porno).

[Puglover]

300. Our young men and women are

fucking DYING Hill!

Everything about this woman says opportunistic asshat politician to me.

That being said, if she is the democratic candidate in 2008 I'll vote for her.

[lakeguy]

314. maybe she should target the reason why too many kids in

america can't even afford a damn game!

[Fire Walk With Me]

351. Is it possible to attract voters without using "wedge" issues?