U.S. Used Banned Weapons In Fallujah-Health Ministry

[chlamor]

U.S. used banned weapons in Fallujah – Health ministry

3/3/2005 8:30:00 PM GMT

An official in Iraq’s health ministry said that the U.S. used banned weapons in Fallujah

Dr. Khalid ash-Shaykhli, an official at Iraq’s health ministry, said that the U.S. military used internationally banned weapons during its deadly offensive in the city of Fallujah.

Dr. ash-Shaykhli was assigned by the ministry to assess the health conditions in Fallujah following the November assault there.

He said that researches, prepared by his medical team, prove that U.S. occupation forces used internationally prohibited substances, including mustard gas, nerve gas, and other burning chemicals in their attacks in the war-torn city.
<snip>
Asked whether limited nuclear weapons were also used by U.S. forces in Fallujah, Dr. ash-Shaykhli said; “What I saw during our research in Fallujah leads me to me believe everything that has been said about that battle.

“I absolutely do not exclude their use of nuclear and chemical substances, since all forms of nature were wiped out in that city. I can even say that we found dozens, if not hundreds, of stray dogs, cats, and birds that had perished as a result of those gasses.”
<snip>
The United Nations banned the use of the napalm gas against civilians in 1980 after pictures of a naked wounded girl in Vietnam shocked the world.

The United States, which didn't endorse the convention, is the only nation in the world still using the deadly weapon.

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=7216

[manic expression]

1. Absolutely disgusting

This is yet another example of "The Freedom" we have given Iraq.

[saigon68]

118. WHO WOULD CHRIST NAPALM ??

Or burn to death with WHITE PHOSPHORUS

A few Islamic non-believers that's who

[hector459]

133. We didn't endorse the convention; we do not endorse the World Court

yet we demand that every other nation on earth follow the very rules we reject. We have become a renegade nation and the world is letting us get away with it because of the racism and bigotry of the western nations taken together. It will only conern them when it begins to hurt the white people of the world.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

2. Can I get a "moral highground" everyone?? The rest of the world sees

the facts, and the Amurkan sheeple believe what they are told by Faux Snooze. History repeats itself, all too often.

[peacebird]

3. great. just freaking great.

I read stories of people with unnatural yellow powder under their nails and knew there were tales of "burning" napalm usage. But mustard gas? Hasn't that been banned since - oh - WWII?

Maybe we just found a more convenient way to dispose of what we had leftover in storage...

I feel ill... what exactly has been perpetrated in our names?

When will america awaken from this nightmare?

[rzemanfl]

4. I believe aljazerra about as much as I believe Bushco, this

article is crap. Napalm gas? Give me a break.

[baldguy]

9. How about this?

http://www.mabonline.net/media/news/articles/archives/middlleeast2003/ususenapalm18.08.03.htm

US admits it used napalm bombs in Iraq

American pilots dropped the controversial incendiary agent napalm on Iraqi troops during the advance on Baghdad. The attacks caused massive fireballs that obliterated several Iraqi positions.

The Pentagon denied using napalm at the time, but Marine pilots and their commanders have confirmed that they used an upgraded version of the weapon against dug-in positions. They said napalm, which has a distinctive smell, was used because of its psychological effect on an enemy.

[MisterP]

11. we also used white phosphorus in Falluja

a mainstream media (but not necessarily corporate) covered this--can't find it at the moment, though
San Diego Union-Tribune story on napalm mentioned in Independent article:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20030805-9999_1n5bomb.html

[baldguy]

12. And this?

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14920109&method=full&siteid=106694&headline=fallujah-napalmed-name_page.html

FALLUJAH NAPALMED

US uses banned weapon ..but was Tony Blair told?

US troops are secretly using outlawed napalm gas to wipe out remaining insurgents in and around Fallujah.

News that President George W. Bush has sanctioned the use of napalm, a deadly cocktail of polystyrene and jet fuel banned by the United Nations in 1980, will stun governments around the world.

[baldguy]

15. And this?

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/21/otsc.irq.savidge/

Savidge: Protecting Iraq's oil supply

BASRA, Iraq (CNN) -- We are with the 1st Battalion, 7th Marines in southern Iraq. Obviously the focus of the effort here is the oil industry, the oil infrastructure. That is considered crucial. Not because of what many people have said, and criticized, that the United States wanted to grab oil. The military leaders say that is not the plan at all.
.....
There is a lookout there, a hill referred to as Safwan Hill, on the Iraqi side of the border. It was filled with Iraqi intelligence gathering. From that vantage point, they could look out over all of northern Kuwait.

It is now estimated the hill was hit so badly by missiles, artillery and by the Air Force, that they shaved a couple of feet off it. And anything that was up there that was left after all the explosions was then hit with napalm. And that pretty much put an end to any Iraqi operations up on that hill.

[clem_c_rock]

132. Boom - punched in the face w/ mainstream media

Nice work!

[baldguy]

18. And this?

http://houston.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/35013.php

PHOSPHOR OVER FALLUJA:
http://www.jungewelt.de/2004/11-13/001.php
(from a german newspaper report)

- grenades with white phosphor have been fired on Falluja which created a wall of fire, burning all the time (phosphor flames can`t be stopped by water - phosphor creates fire by a chemical reaction).
- many people did melt; so enourmous is the heat
- Iraqi doctor Kamal Hadeethi told journalists of the Washington Post: »I`ve seen many people injured; the streets are full of crying people -and full of dead people: they even were melt down to the street.« Falluja residents told that all the streets are destroyed, houses are ruines, and at walls stick parts of human meat.
- white phosphor reacts simply by contact with air and creates temperatures which even make metall melt - when white phosphor burns it sets free clouds of toxic smog. therefore white phosphor can also be seen as a chemical weapon
- white phosphor was used in WW II against german cities


US-TROOPS DESTROY HOSPITALS IN FALLUJA
BBC, 6.Nov.04
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3988433.stm

A hospital has been razed to the ground in one of the heaviest US air raids in the Iraqi city of Falluja.


NAPALM IN FALLUJA:
according to: http://www.freace.de/artikel/aug2003/napalm060803.html

- it seems that the US used in this war every weapon they had - besides nukes.
- but also grenades with low radioctive uran were fired (all in all between 1000 and 2000 tons of uran-munition; in kosovo and serbia, were the US also used this weapon, cancer rate among the population nowadays is extremely high.)
- "Daisy Cutter" bombs (BLU 82)were used; effect: a fireball with radius more than one square mile; miles around this square mile the explosion creates a vacuum: so the lungs of people implode.
- according to the San Diego Union-Tribune Napalm was used on tuesday against Iraqis in Falluja. The Pentagon tries to manipulate and denies the use of Napalm: they don`t call it Napalm bombs today; they call it "Mark 77 Fire Bombs", wich would have only an "quite similar effect".
Officially the US destroyed all its Napalm bombs in 2001.
The speaker of the marines, Michael Daily, said, that "Mark 77 is more environment-friendly than Napalm." (Mark 77 consists mainly of cerosin - napalm consisted mainly of benzol; cerosin burns even faster)
- US-Marine Randolph Alles, who directed some Napalm attacs himself said "the Generals love Napalm because it has a big psychological effect - due to the fire ball and its typicall smell".

[leftchick]

52. isn't it interesting...

they never reply when given loads of proof... :eyes:

[tom_paine]

74. They need to retunr to the PARTY Sub-Media to wash those questions away

and get ready for another day of "mentally goosestepping" to Our Noble and God-Sent Leader.

:puke:

[rzemanfl]

80. Read my post, I said I don't believe BushCo either. Then I went

to bed so you folks could flame me. This article is propaganda just as much as the propaganda * puts out. I never said napalm wasn't used, I said it wasn't a "gas" like mustard gas. The article also says that the use of napalm was banned "against civilians," does this mean that killing civilians is okay if you use ordinary bombs?

Regardless of who supposedly is throwing the babies out of the incubators or bayoneting nuns (either before or after raping them and/or cutting off their breasts) propaganda is propaganda and bullshit is bullshit.

[leftchick]

110. these propaganda guys....

"An official in Iraq’s health ministry said that the U.S. used banned weapons in Fallujah"... were installed by guess who?

[rzemanfl]

78. Sometimes people have to sleep and work. Napalm is jellied

gasoline-it is not a "gas" like mustard gas and phosgene, which is what the article implies. Why is their propaganda any more believeable than ours? Isn't it bad enough that we "destroyed a town in order to save it" without believing everything the Arab media throws out?

From now on I'll be careful what I post before bedtime.

[0007]

125. You[ve noticed that also, eh?

[rinsd]

62. Napalm, believible....

Nukes, Nerve gas, Mustard gas etc....hyperbole that throws doubts on credibility.

[leftchick]

51. Here you go. *graphic* White Phosphorous is the new improved Napalm

It is just marketed differently now...

Some of the heaviest damage apparently was incurred Monday night by air and artillery attacks that coincided with the entry of ground troops into the city. U.S. warplanes dropped eight 2,000-pound bombs on the city overnight, and artillery boomed throughout the night and into the morning.

"Usually we keep the gloves on," said Army Capt. Erik Krivda, of Gaithersburg, Md., the senior officer in charge of the 1st Infantry Division's Task Force 2-2 tactical operations command center. "For this operation, we took the gloves off."

Some artillery guns fired white phosphorous rounds that create a screen of fire that cannot be extinguished with water. Insurgents reported being attacked with a substance that melted their skin, a reaction consistent with white phosphorous burns.

Kamal Hadeethi, a physician at a regional hospital, said, "The corpses of the mujahedeen which we received were burned, and some corpses were melted."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/11/10/MNG6P9P3ER1.DTL



Child in Fallujah Hospital who had the unfortunate act of meeting the US "Whitey Pete" firsthand.

[Just Me]

56. OMG OMG OMG OMG

:cry:

[Ignoramus]

63. watch out for inappropriately cited graphics

That picture is from long before the fallujah massacre.

These are claimed to be from fallujah, by dahr jamail:

http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album32

[leftchick]

70. I did not access that photo from Dahr Jamail's blog

whom I respect immensly. I got is from Al-jazeera the week of the US offensive in Falluja. Which reall was the summer of 2004 offensive since they were dropping bombs nightly on those poor people called "insurgents".

[saigon68]

120. Its to illustrate the Effect of Willy Pete (WP)

It burns children just like the picture--- I have seen it do this. It cannot be put out by throwning water on it. It will burn until it "BURNS ITSELF OUT"

Only War Criminals use It.

[0007]

71. Aljazeera is ten time more creditable than junior

Check out other news sources if you care too.
http://www.w3ar.com/a.php?k=1719

This is what Napalm gas is all about....a deadly cocktail of polystyrene and jet fuel banned by the United Nations in 1980, will stun governments around the world.

And you do need a break sonny.

[Roland99]

79. Another more reputable link

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/08/35-150803.htm


And another one

[baldguy]

5. Phan Thi Kim Phuc

http://www.vietnamwar.com/PhanThiKimPhuc.htm

Why does the American military target non-combatant children?

[manic expression]

7. Because

they can

[0007]

72. ....and we wonder why no one on this planet has any love for the US

[SouthernDem2004]

6. Wow, you guys will believe anything if it is anti-US. How about...

I heard U.S. forces shot down Santa Claus, sent him to Cuba and are currently holding him there while they torture him.

[sonicx]

10. We all know the US never accuses anyone of having banned weapons.

[SouthernDem2004]

13. What does that have to do with this claim?

[Windy]

16. I have my doubts that you're a progressive

While I too take Al-Jazeera with a grain of salt, I DO tend to listen to european media more that the US propaganda/state run news services.... i.e. cnn/msnbc and for god sake FAUX.. (and I also READ)

Unfortunately, this will never get looked into on this side of the pond.. and it should. These kind of tactics are inhumane to the people of Iraq and will undoubtedly cause more harm to come to our men and women who are over there doing their job for that irresponsible nut in the whitehouse and his minions.

[SouthernDem2004]

19. I am not a "progressive" and

there is not one iota of proof to back this claim.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bpilgrim]

32. no kidding (GRAPHIC)

and there have been some EYEWITNESS who manage to survive...

we of course tried to keep all media OUT unless escorted through PROPER military channels.

but at least your fairy tales are SAFE, eh...


http://images.globalfreepress.com

peace

[Ms. Clio]

47. Yeah, I think many people have noticed that n/t

[SouthernDem2004]

66. yep, never been a big fan of labels or generaliztions.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

130. You said it, pal

:eyes:

[manic expression]

20. Umm....

try replies #9, #11, #12, #15, #18.

[SouthernDem2004]

26. But its not napalm which we stopped using. I know we have incendiary

munitions. Artillery has incendiary rounds we called "Willie Pete" in the Army. They are white phosphorus, nasty stuff.

I dispute the gassing claims. They are just absurd.

[manic expression]

37. Ah, yes, I didn't know you were talking about that

I, too, am critical of that claim (gas). However, doesn't napalm create a type of gas when it is used? I heard this somewhere. Just a thought.

[SouthernDem2004]

38. We do not have any napalm any more. WP gives off smoke.

[manic expression]

41. There's a lot of evidence that points towards napalm use

or at the very least, a virtual duplicate of napalm, only with slightly different materials. Plenty of witnesses and sources describe explosions which match napalm behavior perfectly. I am quite sure that we are actively using napalm (or something completely identical).

[SouthernDem2004]

46. Certainly possible I suppose but I am more concerned with the

mustard gas type claims.

[bvar22]

84. The "by products" of a White Phosphorus fire...

...in an urban environment are a mixture of toxic gases that can be fatal. Breathing super heated air near a WP fire can be fatal.
Most of the 1st person accounts of "poison gases" sounded more like the by products of WP fires.

A citizen of Fallujah lucky enough to survive this War Crime is entitled to make this mistake.

The US Forces had surrounded Fallujah, and were forcing refugees to return to the city to be exterminated later. Poison gas would not be used since ANY wind would threaten the attacking forces.

The fact that mustard gas or Sarin, or nerve agents were not used in the massacre of Fallujah IN NO WAY lessens the extent of the crimes committed in our names.

[jmowreader]

139. Every soldier knows how to make crude napalm

All you need do is take gasoline and dissolve (I will not name the product for fear of DHS closing down this site, but it is very easily obtained) to the saturation point.

Fill a 5-gallon water can with this crude napalm, insert an incendiary grenade and you've got a firebomb.

[martymar64]

102. Not so absurd

During the Ludlow massacre, we machine gunned our own people, including women and children. I wouldn't put anything past these bloodthirsty bastards.

[SouthernDem2004]

112. Had never heard of that one before. Unfortunately that type of incident

was not to uncommon in the early 1900s. The crime was not committed by the US military or the Federal government so I do not see how it applies not to mention it was almost 100 years ago.

[peacebird]

14. I wouldn't put it past them

after all - Santa and his elves make presents and give them away for free and that can't be good for the corporate bottom line.

Not to mention that some of the higher ups in this admin have a grudge against the jolly old elf because of that uncanny "naughty or nice" meter he has... they still remember those switches and lumps of coal.

:evilgrin:

seriously though - the BBC had an article documenting our use of napalm in Fallujah. So my belief in this administrations malicious lack of concern for human life is pretty solidly founded.

on edit: Except of course for those yet to be born, they are real solicitous and concerned over THEIR welfare....

[IndianaGreen]

22. And some people believe anything that they hear on Faux.

Reagan is dead, and Zell was committed to an insane asylum. Get over it!

Conservatism is the scourge of mankind!

[bpilgrim]

24. i'd MUCH rather it'd be santa, than REAL men, women, and children...

our BEST reporters - syemore hersh - are telling us about these horrors and MORE AND we even admit to using DU, fer christ's sake... not to mention us NOT signing treaties to ban WMD's, hello...

so the world that you live in IS secure because your fairy tale character is still safe :crazy:

peace

[SouthernDem2004]

28. Huh?

Our best who has said what?

Admit to using DU? Darn right. We use it all the time. It has never been any type of a secret.

Guess I just need a little evidence for such a wild claim. Guess thats just me.

[bpilgrim]

30. Seymour Hersh

Investigative journalist Seymour Hersh spills the secrets of the Iraq quagmire and the war on terror

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/10/11_hersh.shtml

psst... pass the word :hi:

peace

[SouthernDem2004]

33. I am not defending the war and I am not sure what that article has to

do with the gassing claims unless I missed something.

[bpilgrim]

39. you are denying the wars atrocities

and that isn't the only article out there besides the EYEWITNESS accounts and us attacking even the hospitals, hello...

where've you been? have you only just started pay'n attention?

well, stick around here, you'll learn.

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[SouthernDem2004]

43. Sorry I've seen no credible proof and since you feel the need to insult

me I guess you do not have any either. No need to respond because I will not waste my time reading another insulting message.

Good luck.

[bpilgrim]

45. pfft... offering evidence is now an INSULT

what has the world come to :crazy:

cya

peace

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SouthernDem2004]

95. Please, what evidence?

We do not use mustard gas or nerve gas. There is ZERO evidence we did. No, I am not a tin-foily. I need credible facts before I start believing such things. If you believed it based on just reading this post on a message board on the internet maybe you should think about that long and hard.

[saigon68]

119. ADIOS

[meganmonkey]

40. "We napalmed both those (bridge) approaches," said Col. Randolph Alles

There is evidence all over this thread - see post #17

"We napalmed both those (bridge) approaches," said Col. Randolph Alles in a recent interview. He commanded Marine Air Group 11, based at Miramar Marine Corps Air Station, during the war. "Unfortunately, there were people there because you could see them in the (cockpit) video.

"They were Iraqi soldiers there. It's no great way to die," he added. How many Iraqis died, the military couldn't say. No accurate count has been made of Iraqi war casualties.
<snip>
"You can call it something other than napalm, but it's napalm," said John Pike, defense analyst with GlobalSecurity.org, a nonpartisan research group in Alexandria, Va.

[SouthernDem2004]

44. Its not napalm and I really not that concerned about...

incendiaries. We use them in artillery shells anyway. I do not however believe the gassing claims.

[meganmonkey]

54. So you are saying that despite pictures, eyewitness accounts,

other descriptions from credible resources (including military folks) you don't believe it? What would it take?

I certainly won't bother trying to convince you.

I wish I could just block things out and pretend that my tax dollars aren't being used in my name to commit these atrocities on children and other innocent Iraqis. Unfortunately, my conscience doesn't let me do that. :shrug:

[SouthernDem2004]

65. Reply?

What pictures????

You are not getting accounts from eye witnesses about gassing. You are getting a biased news source stating people said things. That is not an eye witness. Reread the articles.

[lumpy]

128. Are you trying to deny that

the US military has used any illegal weapons against civilians?

[SouthernDem2004]

129. Certainly.

1) We have not target civilians. Civilians have been killed but it was not intentional. One of the horrors of war is that innocents die.

2) Illegal weapons, negative. WP has never been declared illegal nor have fuel-air and that type of munitions. We do not use mustard gas or nerve agents, period. Also, we did not sign onto the UN resolution that banned mines and other types of weapons. Just because someone says it is an illegal weapon does not make it so. I am sure our enemies would love to call our aircraft, tanks, smart bombs and other munitions illegal so we would not use them. It does not work that way. Weapons are designed to kill and destroy. Yes, their effects are horrible. Yes, I wish we did not have to use them but the reality is that if we are in a conflict we have no choice.


Do not confuse this thread with a pro or anti-war type thread. I am not discussing the merits of this war. Once a war is engaged we should and will use the weapons we have when we need them. Also remember there is no proof of these claims. There is only one guy making these accussations. Credible evidence is needed.

[Laurab]

27. You know, you're right

I will believe almost anything anti-US these days, if it seems to be from a somewhat reliable source. I will believe it, because I put nothing beneath this administration. Isn't that sad?

Most of it is true, too - isn't that sadder?

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[da_chimperor]

53. Um, NO. It's already been confirmed that napalm and white phosphorous

were both used. I don't believe claims that any sort of poison gas was used. Military tear gas, sure. Mustard gas? High doubtful. And what about YOU? given the amount of articles stating that both white phosphorous and napalm (basically super-napalm with a different name, not the same used in Vietnam) were used posted on this thread, are you so skeptical now?

[leftchick]

58. I dunno

has not replied to any of the evidence stated here and there is plenty.

[da_chimperor]

64. I wasn't sure if they would

but most of the time I can't stop myself from saying something anyway.

[SouthernDem2004]

68. It certainly is possible. I know WP was used. Its a standard munition.

I do not agree with napalm. People keep throwing that word around associating it with actual naplam which we no longer use. Sure, we have fuel-air bombs and the like but I am skeptical that we used them. I am willing to listen but I need some type of credible proof.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SouthernDem2004]

92. Reply:

Amazing how you reach a judgement about me on a few messages on the internet.

Let me give you a little incite into my world. I am a proud officer is the U.S. Army. Right now I am in the Guard but it is really the same thing. I am responsible for the lives of my men and I take it very seriously. I know my men and their families. At some point we will be in Iraq. This is a given. Do I want to go? Hell no. Did I think this war should have been fought? Hell no. That being said, I have a responsibilty to the people in my unit. I will go to Iraq and I will do what I can to bring my people home. The harsh reality is that I may fail. Being in a combat MOS we will probably be frontline troops. If it comes to a point where I have to choose between calling in WP from fire support or losing some of my people I will call for fire. Now of course that is not how calling for fire actually works but I think you get my point. Killing is killing. There is no good way. There are alot of horrible ways to die in combat. War is hell, plain and simple.

Wanna here what we dream of at night? A tank has a crew of 4. The driver sits in the main body of the tank away from the rest of the crew. He has his own hatch. The loader is in the back left of the turret with his own hatch. The commander is in the back right of the turret with his own hatch. The gunner is in the front of the turret without a hatch. The gunner can not exit quickly. Lets say my tank takes a solid hit from an anti-tank weapon that happens to penetrate the armor. Here is what happens inside the tank: The round vaporizes metal as it penetrates which showers the crew. Fire rages through the compartment. If you are luck the fire suppression system is triggered. Either way you can not breath because of the smoke or the fire system. You can not see either. At this point you have to try to get the gunner unstrapped (he better not be strapped in) and out of the tank. The odds are no one is going to make it out though. They will burn slowly burn to death because the impact was so great they went into shock. Not pretty is it?

Do I sound cold? Maybe. You see, I am well aware of what weapons that are available to me. I would not be shocked if WP was used but then again it seems unlikely. It is only really effective for troops in an open area. Definitely not in a city. WP is mainly used for screening. There are just better ways to kill troops. It is not being cold hearted. It is facing reality during a discussion on a message forum. The reality is that some of the people killed in a war die a painful death. If I have a choice between my men getting killed or the enemy which do you think I will choose?

[martymar64]

103. As a soldier you have the right to disobey an illegal order

Purposely targetting civilians is a war crime under any circumstances. Just following orders did not work at Nuremburg and it won't work here.

[SouthernDem2004]

107. Ah but..

who purposefully targeted civilians? ANY credible proof or information regarding that? The answer is no. We DO NOT intentionally kill civilians. It violates the UCMJ. Once again, give me ONE CRDEIBLE fact that we intentionally targeted civilians. Just ONE. If you are going to make such claims you need to be able to back it up. Waiting...

[Ignoramus]

137. It's kind of a moot point

There was some targeting of civilians in the initial days of the US "shock and awe" terror bombing. The Iraqi television station (not antenna) was targeted and obliterated. But, the distinction between targeting of civilians and "collateral damage" is not a significant distinction.

If my neighbor is shooting a gun into my window, so I catapult a flaming 50 gallon barrel of gasoline at him and burn the entire block down, it is not okay because I just intended to defend myself. But, it's worse than that, because the military essentially uses that same excuse over and over and claims that it is appropriate.

Essentially, you are an international terrorist, engaged in a war of aggression and your actions are the supreme danger to my life and all life on earth. You and other terrorists like you are the greatest problem that there is on earth at this time.

The excuse you give is that it's okay to cause mass-death because you close off your mind to the consequences of your actions and limit yourself to placing value only on the lives of the people you are in association with. This is the same logic used by any gang member, any terrorist any tyrant.

Yes, I "support" people like you, as I "support" murderers, gang members, and all other people. I think you are as human as any other person, and I wish you well personally. But I do no support your terrorism.

[SouthernDem2004]

141. Wow..

The was rather self-righteous of you. Impressive how you put words in my mouth I never said. Well have fun with that.


Peace

[IndianaGreen]

114. No, you have an obligation to disobey an illegal order

That's how I was taught when I was in uniform, but that was long before the rightwing began to indoctrinate the military with their crap.

[SouthernDem2004]

122. You are correct. That is what the UCMJ states.

[Jose Diablo]

115. In the service?

I thought you said you were a police officer in Georgia. I cannot search without a star, but somehow I remember a very long thread you started about being a cop.

Am I confusing you with someone else?

[SouthernDem2004]

123. Nope, If you reread the posts I am currently in the Guard, was active and

I am a Police Officer but I never said where.

[IndianaGreen]

140. We need you guys here at home, not in Iraq or in Bosnia

For our Indiana Guard, we certainly need them in the Spring when we get all the bad weather and flooding.

The Guard was not designed to be the Praetorian Guard of the President.

[anitar1]

121. Glad you will be going to Iraq

maybe you can gather some facts and let us all know what the facts really are. I'll bet that all those pics of dead children and families are just a lie that some one has posted to make our government look bad. Murkans would never commit a negative act toward other peoples. We are just trying to bring them their "freedoms".

[HeeBGBz]

87. A rose by any other name?

Just because they call it something different now doesn't erase the horrific consequences of its use.

[EFerrari]

57. Well, at least we found somebody. n/t

[Blue_Tires]

131. i heard from the president himself

that saddam can attack the U.S. within 45 mins using biological weapons!

which claim is more outlandish?

[riverwalker]

8. "all forms of nature were wiped out"

"all forms of nature were wiped out in that city"

god help us

[chlamor]

17. Mark 77 Firebombs

The incendiary used in Iraq is a different combination of chemicals etc. than "napalm" and therefore not napalm, how Orwellian, although virtually the same stuff, same effect. How comforting. These masters of war in the Pentagon-DARPA LABS-Lockheed World are pathological murderers, nothing less.







More:
What the Marines dropped, the spokesmen said yesterday, were "Mark 77 firebombs." They acknowledged those are incendiary devices with a function "remarkably similar" to napalm weapons.

Rather than using gasoline and benzene as the fuel, the firebombs use kerosene-based jet fuel, which has a smaller concentration of benzene.
<snip>

Mark 77 Firebomb

"We napalmed both those (bridge) approaches," said Col. Randolph Alles in a recent interview. He commanded Marine Air Group 11, based at Miramar Marine Corps Air Station, during the war. "Unfortunately, there were people there because you could see them in the (cockpit) video.

"They were Iraqi soldiers there. It's no great way to die," he added. How many Iraqis died, the military couldn't say. No accurate count has been made of Iraqi war casualties.
<snip>
"You can call it something other than napalm, but it's napalm," said John Pike, defense analyst with GlobalSecurity.org, a nonpartisan research group in Alexandria, Va.

"They were Iraqi soldiers there. It's no great way to die."


Col. Randolph Alles
 
Although many human rights groups consider incendiary bombs to be inhumane, international law does not prohibit their use against military forces. The United States has not agreed to a ban against possible civilian targets.

"Incendiaries create burns that are difficult to treat," said Robert Musil, executive director of Physicians for Social Responsibility, a Washington group that opposes the use of weapons of mass destruction.

Musil described the Pentagon's distinction between napalm and Mark 77 firebombs as "pretty outrageous."

"That's clearly Orwellian," he added.
<snip>
Yesterday military spokesmen described what they see as the distinction between the two types of incendiary bombs. They said mixture used in modern firebombs is a less harmful mixture than Vietnam War-era napalm.
<snip>
Col. Michael Daily
"This additive has significantly less of an impact on the environment," wrote Marine spokesman Col. Michael Daily, in an e-mailed information sheet provided by the Pentagon.

He added, "many folks (out of habit) refer to the Mark 77 as 'napalm' because its effect upon the target is remarkably similar."

In the e-mail, Daily also acknowledged that firebombs were dropped near Safwan Hill.

Alles, who oversaw the Safwan bombing raid, said 18 one-ton satellite-guided bombs, but no incendiary bombs, were dropped on the site.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20030805-9999_1n5bomb.html

[Gyre]

21. This country is so disgusting.

I don't see how we can get any more evil, but I'm sure the chimp and rove have a plan. Of course, "we" have to live down to all the lowered expectations re: ethics and morality our little born again zionist in the WH accomplished during his first term.

Gyre

[Igel]

25. I'd believe him more if he was sent in to test those hypotheses,

if somebody actually stated his qualifications to examine the evidence, and if he had seen the evidence first hand ... than reading "researches" his reports gathered. For all we know he's the head guy's nephew with an associate's degree in hotel management.

Saying "I do no exclude their use of nuclear and chemical substances", i.e. "maybe" is rather different from saying "researches ... prove that U.S. occupation forces used internationally prohibited substances, including mustard gas, nerve gas, and other burning chemicals in their attacks in the war-torn city", i.e., certainly.

If some administrator in the Army made those claims about somebody else, and I posted it, I'd be laughed off the boards.

[chlamor]

29. Napalm-Phosphorous-Depleted Uranium-Electromagnetic Weapons

Are all being used.


Mark 77 Firebomb

"We napalmed both those (bridge) approaches," said Col. Randolph Alles in a recent interview. He commanded Marine Air Group 11, based at Miramar Marine Corps Air Station, during the war. "Unfortunately, there were people there because you could see them in the (cockpit) video.

"They were Iraqi soldiers there. It's no great way to die," he added. How many Iraqis died, the military couldn't say. No accurate count has been made of Iraqi war casualties.
<snip>
"You can call it something other than napalm, but it's napalm," said John Pike, defense analyst with GlobalSecurity.org, a nonpartisan research group in Alexandria, Va.

"They were Iraqi soldiers there. It's no great way to die."

What the Marines dropped, the spokesmen said yesterday, were "Mark 77 firebombs." They acknowledged those are incendiary devices with a function "remarkably similar" to napalm weapons.

Rather than using gasoline and benzene as the fuel, the firebombs use kerosene-based jet fuel, which has a smaller concentration of benzene.

[SouthernDem2004]

36. Napalm has become a generic term in the military just like...

"lighting something up" or "nuke it."

[chlamor]

42. What is being used is Napalm's kissing cousin

and every bit as horrific. Somewhere I have the breakdown of what comprises a Mark 77 Firebomb and it is 10% different here and 8% different there in it's composition from the substance widely used in Viet Nam.That is one of the many "illegal" weapons being used. The name the Pentagon gives to the merchant of death does not alter the outcome. War Crimes.

[leftchick]

50. it is called "whitey pete"

for white phosphorous. It has the same effects as Napalm.

[Nordmadr]

85. In the Navy we referred to them as "Willy Pete"

for the White Phos. rounds. As I understood it while I was in, they were meant to be used as illumination rounds...fortunately we never had to fire them in any combat on my ship, but came close.

Olaf

[SouthernDem2004]

91. Called the same thing in the Army.

[nguoihue]

98. Recall that back in VN it sounded like "wooly peter"

Maybe it was "Willy Peter". They were used primarily to mark targets such as in an intial arty round which could then be adjusted so that HE could be called in on the target. They were also used to mark targets for close in air support.

A buddy was once burned severely by a booby-trapped WP arty round.

[SouthernDem2004]

108. Yep, same stuff.

[NickB79]

59. I seriously doubt much depleted uranium was used

DU is used as a penetrator round to cut through the heavy armor of tanks and APC's. DU penetrator rounds are fired primarily from Abrams tanks and A-10 Warthog aircraft. What exactly would US troops be using DU for in Fallujah, when they were fighting mainly door-to-door?

The napalm and white phosphorus, though, are no problem to believe.

[chlamor]

88. Radiation In Iraq Equals 250,000 Nagasaki Bombs

This story is about American weapons built with depleted uranium components for the business end of things. Just about all American bullets, tank shells, missiles, dumb bombs, smart bombs, 500 and 2,000-pound bombs, cruise missiles, and anything else engineered to help our side in the war of us against them has depleted uranium in it. Lots of depleted uranium.

In the case of a cruise missile, as much as 800 pounds of the stuff. This article is about how much radioactive depleted uranium our guys, representing us, the citizens of the United States, let fly in Iraq. Turns out they used about 4,000,000 pounds of the stuff, give or take, according to the Pentagon and the United Nations. That is a bunch.

Now, most people have no idea how much Four Million Pounds of anything is, much less of depleted uranium oxide dust (UOD), which this stuff turns into when it is shot or exploded. Suffice it to say it is about equal to 1,333 cars that weigh 3,000 pounds apiece. That is a lot of cars; but we can imagine what a parking lot with 1,333 is like. The point is this was and is an industrial strength operation. It is still going on, too.

<snip>

The admiral released the data months ago at a scientific conference in India. This article is the first report of the data in the United States. It will first be released on the Internet.

The admiral in India calculated the amount of radiation in the Nagasaki bomb and compared it with the number in the 4,000,000 pounds of depleted uranium left in Iraq from the 2003 war. Now, believe me, it is a lot more complex than that; but, that is essentially what the experts in India did.

How many Nagasaki bombs equal the radiation in the 2003 Iraq war? Answer: about 250,000 Nagasaki bombs.

How many Nagasaki bombs equal the radiation in the last Five American Nuclear Radiation Wars? Answer: about 400,000 Nagasaki bombs.

Who would do something like this?

We would. The only people in the history of the world to engage in nuclear wars are Americans, citizens of the United States. Allegedly, the Germans and Japanese of WWII also wanted to engage in nuclear wars, except the American military beat them to the draw, so to speak.

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/071304Nichols/071304nichols.html

[SouthernDem2004]

93. Article is junk

First off, bullets are not made of DU. That is just plain wrong. DU is used to penetrate hard targets like tanks or re-enforced bunkers. It is used in tank munitions and bombs. 4,000,000 pounds, wow, that is just so stupid I do not know where to start. An 800lbs bomb is not 800lbs of DU. Only the shell tip consists of DU. 800lbs is referring to the explosive. Whoever wrote that article is either completely ignorant or an outright liar.

[chlamor]

97. Depleted Uranium Crime Against Humanity-Here's More

The United States munitions industry produces the following DU munitions with the corresponding mass of uranium 238:

7.62 mm with unspecified mass

50 cal.  With unspecified mass

20 mm with a mass of approximately 180 grams.

25 mm with a mass of approximately 200 grams.

30 mm with a mass of approximately 280 grams.

105 mm with a mass of approximately 3500 grams.

120 mm with a mass of approximately 4500 grams.

Submunitions such as the PDM and ADAM whose structural body contain a small proportion of DU.

Many other countries now produce or have acquired DU munitions.  DU is also used as armor, ballast or counter weights, radiation shielding, and as proposed by the U.S. Department of Energy as a component of road and structural materials.  All of these current or proposed uses are designed to reduce the huge U.S. Department of Energy stockpiles left over from the uranium enrichment process.

It is important to realize that DU penetrators are solid uranium 238.  During an impact approximately 40 % of the penetrator forms  DU oxides which are left on the terrain, within or on impacted equipment, or within impacted structures. The remainder of the penetrator (60%) retains its initial shape.

<snip>

HOW IS DU USED BY INDUSTRY AND DOE?

The U.S. Department of Energy possesses about 728,000 metric tonnes of DU. Consequently, DOE has been investigating and advocating additional uses for DU to reduce its stockpiles. DU is stored at Pudacah, Kentucky; Oak Ridge, Tennessee; and Portsmouth, Ohio. DOE has proposed various uses for DU most of which support the nuclear industry.  However, DOE has also proposed using DU to reinforce concrete and other building materials.  DU is also used as aircraft ballast, as shielding, and in oil well drilling equipment. The potential of recycled DU contaminated metals reaching the consumer market in various products is also a concern.   

WHERE AND WHEN AS DU BEEN USED?

Photographic evidence of destroyed equipment suggests that DU was first used during the 1973 Arab- Israeli war.  Various written reports cite information that may have been obtained as a consequence of that use.  Physicians using medical laboratory tests have verified an internalized exposure to DU in the individual who inspected that destroyed equipment.  The Persian Gulf war was the first major use of  DU in combat.  Pilots flying aircraft fired approximately 850,950 rounds and another 9,640 rounds were fired by gunners in tanks for a total weight of 631,055 pounds or over 315 tons.  Recent conversations with the individual who managed all DU rounds suggest that this figure may be to low and that the actual quantity should be 25% greater.  Although warnings were issued to refrain from DU use the U.S. Marines fired DU munitions on three separate occasions during 1995 and 1996 while conducting operations in Okinawa and then did not tell the Japanese Government for some time.   During 1995 the U.S. military also fired approximately 10000 rounds of DU munitions during battle in Serbia.  Recently U.S. forces fired over 31000 rounds of  30 mm DU munitions during 100 missions into Kosovo or Serbia. DU munitions have been fired on ranges in Indiana, Nevada, New Mexico, Florida, Maryland, and this past year on Vieques in Puerto Rico.  The incident in Puerto Rico involved the deliberate use of DU in preparation for combat in Kosovo.  Although DU use is prohibited except during combat, the Navy fired at least 258 rounds in Vieques.  Navy personnel have reported that the Navy has been firing DU into Vieques for years but this was the first time they were caught.   Vieques is currently a national and international issue with confirmed environmental contamination and documented adverse health effects similar to those already observed.

http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/duupdate.htm

[martymar64]

104. DU affects US soldiers too

Depleted Uranium powders when it hits a target, enabling it to be breathed in by everyone around it, friend and foe alike. When these soldiers that have been contaminated come home, they pass uranium to their spouse through semen and other bodily fluids. Subsequently this causes horrendous birth defects and cancer for everyone involved. It's a gift that keeps on giving.

Why do you think that the govt won't acknowledge Gulf War Syndrome? They would have to admit that they are killing their own people.

It that the legacy that you want?

[Blue to the bone]

94. I'm glad there's a smaller concentration of benzene.....

....wouldn't want to expose the enemy to a long-term chance of cancer.

[martymar64]

105. I'm glad to see that you find genocide so funny

What ye sow so shall ye reap. The sins of the father will be visited upon the son.

[Enquiringkitty]

34. We've had an agreement with Russia that we would "dispose of" obsolete

weapons .... This is one way to get rid of them. They will call the weapons disposal treaty a success and deny using they in Iraq because we disposed of them.

What is the definition of "dispose"....."use"? maybe?

[leftchick]

48. U.S. used banned weapons in Fallujah – Health ministry

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=7216

Dr. Khalid ash-Shaykhli, an official at Iraq’s health ministry, said that the U.S. military used internationally banned weapons during its deadly offensive in the city of Fallujah.

Dr. ash-Shaykhli was assigned by the ministry to assess the health conditions in Fallujah following the November assault there.

He said that researches, prepared by his medical team, prove that U.S. occupation forces used internationally prohibited substances, including mustard gas, nerve gas, and other burning chemicals in their attacks in the war-torn city.

<snip>

The press conference was attended by more than 20 Iraqi and foreign media networks, including the Iraqi ash-Sharqiyah TV network, the Iraqi as-Sabah newspaper, the U.S. Washington Post and the Knight-Ridder service.

...silly Iraqis. only the US can use "banned weapons" and say they are not banned when we use them!

[leftchick]

49. Horrifying example of Banned Weapon use by the US.. *graphic*

This child was burned in fallujah by Whitey Pete aka: Napalm in the old days...

[Ignoramus]

61. watch out for this type of thing

That is a graphic from long before the US terror strike on fallujah.

[leftchick]

67. no it isn't....

It is from US weapons used on Fallujahns as they were fleeing the 2000lb bombs being lobbed at them nightly. it is also confimrd by several Iraqi phtysicians still able to work on patients in Fallujah at the time.

Here is an article explaining the use of US White Phosphorous AKA: Whitey Pete to the fellows who drop it on the folks on the ground.

Some of the heaviest damage apparently was incurred Monday night by air and artillery attacks that coincided with the entry of ground troops into the city. U.S. warplanes dropped eight 2,000-pound bombs on the city overnight, and artillery boomed throughout the night and into the morning.

"Usually we keep the gloves on," said Army Capt. Erik Krivda, of Gaithersburg, Md., the senior officer in charge of the 1st Infantry Division's Task Force 2-2 tactical operations command center. "For this operation, we took the gloves off."

Some artillery guns fired white phosphorous rounds that create a screen of fire that cannot be extinguished with water. Insurgents reported being attacked with a substance that melted their skin, a reaction consistent with white phosphorous burns.

Kamal Hadeethi, a physician at a regional hospital, said, "The corpses of the mujahedeen which we received were burned, and some corpses were melted."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/200...

I would be more careful of anything Fox news showed on TV. :eyes:

[Ignoramus]

73. actually it is

I know becuase I used that picture in a poster I made more than a year ago. It is one of a handful of images that were widely circulated near the start of the aggression.

You can see for example, it's cited here from 2003:

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm

[leftchick]

75. silly me...

my mistake. I must have it confused with the hundreds of other burned Iraqi children I have seen. They all sort of mix together after a while they are so sickening to see. So Sorry for not keeping the wounded straight from whence they came. You are correct.

[Ignoramus]

76. It's really important though

Not intending to sound preachy, yet probably failing: We need to be extremely careful about improper citations because any detail like that is all that is needed to effectively discredit the entire thing in people's minds. The point is that people are being slaughtered, exploded, minced, melted and worse.

Let's make the fascists be unique in being sloppy and manipulative with facts, so they can be recognized as such.

[leftchick]

77. you said it best

"The point is that people are being slaughtered, exploded, minced, melted and worse."

To me it hardly matters when or where, as I am sure the famlilies in Iraq feel the same. It is happening and continues because of an Illegal war and occupation. It is that simple. Now lets drop it. I don't even pretend to try and make the fascists happy with facts. They don't pay attention to them anyway

[alarcojon]

144. I love this quote

Let's make the fascists be unique in being sloppy and manipulative with facts, so they can be recognized as such.

Very well put.

[SouthernDem2004]

69. You are mistaken. WP is in no way similar to naplam. We have other

munitions that are but you are getting them confused.

[chlamor]

89. To Get To The Better Sometimes You Have To Face The Ugly Truth-Heres More

This story is about American weapons built with depleted uranium components for the business end of things. Just about all American bullets, tank shells, missiles, dumb bombs, smart bombs, 500 and 2,000-pound bombs, cruise missiles, and anything else engineered to help our side in the war of us against them has depleted uranium in it. Lots of depleted uranium.

In the case of a cruise missile, as much as 800 pounds of the stuff. This article is about how much radioactive depleted uranium our guys, representing us, the citizens of the United States, let fly in Iraq. Turns out they used about 4,000,000 pounds of the stuff, give or take, according to the Pentagon and the United Nations. That is a bunch.

Now, most people have no idea how much Four Million Pounds of anything is, much less of depleted uranium oxide dust (UOD), which this stuff turns into when it is shot or exploded. Suffice it to say it is about equal to 1,333 cars that weigh 3,000 pounds apiece. That is a lot of cars; but we can imagine what a parking lot with 1,333 is like. The point is this was and is an industrial strength operation. It is still going on, too.

<snip>

The admiral released the data months ago at a scientific conference in India. This article is the first report of the data in the United States. It will first be released on the Internet.

The admiral in India calculated the amount of radiation in the Nagasaki bomb and compared it with the number in the 4,000,000 pounds of depleted uranium left in Iraq from the 2003 war. Now, believe me, it is a lot more complex than that; but, that is essentially what the experts in India did.

How many Nagasaki bombs equal the radiation in the 2003 Iraq war? Answer: about 250,000 Nagasaki bombs.

How many Nagasaki bombs equal the radiation in the last Five American Nuclear Radiation Wars? Answer: about 400,000 Nagasaki bombs.

Who would do something like this?

We would. The only people in the history of the world to engage in nuclear wars are Americans, citizens of the United States. Allegedly, the Germans and Japanese of WWII also wanted to engage in nuclear wars, except the American military beat them to the draw, so to speak.

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/071304Nichols/071304nichols.html

[SouthernDem2004]

90. Ok, I know that article is total BS...

I was in the Army and I am currently in the Guard. I spent alot of time around DU tank munitions. First off, bullets are not made of DU. That is just plain wrong. DU is used to penetrate hard targets like tanks or re-enforced bunkers. It is used in tank munitions and bombs. 4,000,000 pounds, wow, that is just so stupid I do not know where to start. An 800lbs bomb is not 800lbs of DU. Only the shell tip consists of DU. 800lbs is referring to the explosive. Whoever wrote that article is either completely ignorant or an outright liar.

This is the problem with the internet. There is alot of garbage out there that people believe that is just that, garbage.

[Frederik]

117. SouthernDem is right here

That numbers in the article are just nonsense. Of course they didn't use 4 million pounds of Uranium. Where would they get all that Uranium from? The author must have thought entire shells were made of Uranium. And 7.62 mm bullets certainly do not have any Uranium in them.

It is nevertheless evident that DU is a health risk and should be banned. I think there is very clear evidence of dramatically increased cancer rates where it has been used, in Iraq and Kosovo.

[NickB79]

60. No, no nuclear weapons were used there

For one thing, even a "small" nuclear blast (5-10 kilotons) would be detectable around the world on seismic monitors maintained in dozens of nations. The shockwaves sent through the Earth's crust and mantle are quite distinctive and can be picked up hundreds, if not thousands of miles away. I doubt every one of these nations would keep quiet about something as massive as the first use of nuclear weapons in war since 1945.

Secondly, does the US even have any small nuclear weapons left in it's arsenal? Almost everything I've ever read about is at least 25-50 kilotons, with much of it in the megaton range, designed in the Cold War to take out Soviet cities. There are the continued proposals to research low-yield bunker buster nukes, but even those are in the 25-50 kiloton range. Even if we did have a 5-10 kiloton warhead to use, remember Hiroshima? That was "only" a 15 kiloton warhead, and it killed close to 100,000 people and flattened an area almost one mile across. Even with all the conventional bombing we did in Fallujah, there is nothing there that approaches the level of devestation seen in Hiroshima.

I wish they wouldn't mix such ignorant statements with truly relevant information like use of illegal chemical weapons. It just makes the rest of the information so much harder to be taken seriously by disbelievers.

[Sapphire Blue]

81. US Troops Reportedly Gassing Fallujah

From Iraq Occupation Watch....


IslamOnline.net
November 10th, 2004


FALLUJAH, November 10 (IslamOnline.net & News Agencies) - US troops are reportedly using chemical weapons and poisonous gas in its large-scale offensive on the Iraqi resistance bastion of Fallujah, a grim reminder of Saddam Hussein’s alleged gassing of the Kurds in 1988.

“The US occupation troops are gassing resistance fighters and confronting them with internationally-banned chemical weapons,” resistance sources told Al-Quds Press Wednesday, November 10.

The fatal weapons led to the deaths of tens of innocent civilians, whose bodies litter sidewalks and streets, they added.

“They use chemical weapons out of despair and helplessness in the face of the steadfast and fierce resistance put up by Fallujah people, who drove US troops out of several districts, hoisting proudly Iraqi flags on them. Resistance has also managed to destroy and set fire to a large number of US tanks and vehicles.

“The US troops have sprayed chemical and nerve gases on resistance fighters, turning them hysteric in a heartbreaking scene,” an Iraqi doctor, who requested anonymity, told Al-Quds Press.

“Some Fallujah residents have been further burnt beyond treatment by poisonous gases,” added resistance fighters, who took part in Golan battles, northwest of Fallujah.

In August last year, the United States admitted dropping the internationally-banned incendiary weapon of napalm on Iraq, despite earlier denials by the Pentagon that the “horrible” weapon had not been used in the three-week invasion of Iraq.

Continued @

http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=7721

[Sapphire Blue]

82. FALLUJAH NAPALMED

FALLUJAH NAPALMED

Nov 28 2004


US uses banned weapon ..but was Tony Blair told?

By Paul Gilfeather Political Editor


US troops are secretly using outlawed napalm gas to wipe out remaining insurgents in and around Fallujah.

News that President George W. Bush has sanctioned the use of napalm, a deadly cocktail of polystyrene and jet fuel banned by the United Nations in 1980, will stun governments around the world.

And last night Tony Blair was dragged into the row as furious Labour MPs demanded he face the Commons over it. Reports claim that innocent civilians have died in napalm attacks, which turn victims into human fireballs as the gel bonds flames to flesh.

Outraged critics have also demanded that Mr Blair threatens to withdraw British troops from Iraq unless the US abandons one of the world's most reviled weapons. Halifax Labour MP Alice Mahon said: "I am calling on Mr Blair to make an emergency statement to the Commons to explain why this is happening. It begs the question: 'Did we know about this hideous weapon's use in Iraq?'"

Since the American assault on Fallujah there have been reports of "melted" corpses, which appeared to have napalm injuries.

Last August the US was forced to admit using the gas in Iraq.

A 1980 UN convention banned the use of napalm against civilians - after pictures of a naked girl victim fleeing in Vietnam shocked the world.

America, which didn't ratify the treaty, is the only country in the world still using the weapon.

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14920109&method=full&siteid=106694&headline=fallujah-napalmed-name_page.html

[daleo]

83. The Italian journalist that was nearly killed by U.S. troops:

Much of her reporting was from and/or about Fallujah, I read elsewhere. You don't think...

[Blue to the bone]

96. Yeah, that's right, she was targeted by US troops.........

.....keep it up. They'll continue to thin our herd, election after election.

[daleo]

99. Well, the journalist herd is getting thinned at any rate.

Personally, I try to stay away from herds.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SouthernDem2004]

109. Please re-read my post. You seem to be confused.

I never claimed to know everything about Iraq or anything of that nature. I do know alot about US munitions and tactics. This thread is discussing the use of mustard gas and nerve gas. We do NOT use those.

No, not all of the Guard has been deployed. There are alot of units and states that have been untouched for the most part for various reasons.

Before you post another hostile message please take time and actually read my post. You are either ignorantly putting words into my mouth or your a liar. I hope you just are just mistaken.

[diatribal]

113. I am opposed to the war

But I wish Southerndem and all his troops a safe and relatively uneventful deployment. And I agree, if the choice is between keeping his guys in one piece, and calling for fire on the enemy, I'd hand him a handset.

[martymar64]

101. The only purpose of naplam and WP . . .

is to burn the skin off of children.

Is that what we want our legacy to be?

[SouthernDem2004]

111. The purpose of...

WP is to screen movement and mark target areas. It is not an offensive weapon. It can be used against troops in the open but it would not be the round of choice. The only reason to fire WP on troops would be if it was already loaded in the tubes for another reason and they did not have time to change rounds.

The "napalm" type weapons that keep being mentioned are offensive weapons. They would be fired from aircraft on troops in the open or in a wooded type environment. What makes me so skeptical about the first post is that these types of weapons are not very effective in an urban environment. The buildings would block the spread pattern and basicly make it useless.

My whole problem with this thread is that some people here are so willing to believe anything negative about the US that they will believe anything posted. There is not one credible piece of evidence to support the mustard or nerve gas claim, not one. Where "napalm" type munitions used? I do not know but it seems unlikely. I will wait for CREDIBLE information before I form a judgement.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

145. I would like to make an observation...

>some people here are so willing to believe anything negative about the
>US that they will believe anything posted

And this tendency, at least around DU, appears to be growing. I have often asked people who make these blite assertions without practical evidence to tell me why they believe such things, even when they freely admit that there is little or no corroborating evidence beyond the assertions of some individual with an obvious agenda. In response, I frequently receive some variant of "Bush is a liar." Now, while this is well-established fact, it seems rather weak as a basis for believing something. Just because Bush is a liar doesn't necessarily mean that whoever's saying the opposite of what he's saying is telling the truth. Factual evidence and the ideas derived from it should not be beholden to any political ideology. As is oft said around here, some things are true and some are not.

I'm too much of an idealist to think that all of this is some failing on the part of the people who believe these ridiculous claims. I don't believe that they are mindless, kool-aid drinking sheeple. Granted, there are some flat-out lunatics (witness the recent tsunami disaster epiisode on DU) but they are the exception. Most of the people I've encountered on DU seem to be intelligent, reasonable people who can rationally expound at lengh on a great many subjects not related to politics or current events. Why, then, does this breakdown occur whenever a volatile subject like this crops up?
If we do live in an enlightened democracy, as we'd like to think we do, then it is our responsibility as citizens to stay informed as to what our government is doing - i.e. it is our responsibility to look for the truth, then act on it. In a democracy, a free press is supposed to assist the citizens in determining what is fact and what is fiction - and here is where the process has broken down. Americans, for a variety of reasons which are mostly very good, have chosen to stop trusting the mainstream media. Witness CNN during the invasion of Iraq - nothing more than a 24-hour-a-day infomercial for US defense contractors. Three-dimensional, spinnng computer models of our war machines, funky "military" typefaces listing their various characteristics.
It was not much better elsewhere (mention the name Judith Miller on DU if you don't believe me.) What choice did people have but to stop trusting the media? All of this constant jabbering by mainstream journalists about the ascention of blogging, and not one word as to the root cause of all this - that they have failed to report fairly, accurately, and truthfully. Simply put, they have fucked up. Actually, to be fair, it is the corporate owners who have fucked them up, for reasons that are well known around here.

The upshot of all this is that a vacuum has been created - people want news they can trust, and they aren't getting it. The problem, though, is that nothing has filled this vacuum. If the MSM is to be replaced by legions of bloggers, each with a political agenda, then the public still isn't getting the unbiased, truthful information it requires in order to make informed decisions. Reading blogs authored by people who share your political views is a bit like eating sweet breakfast cereal. It tastes good, but there isn't any nutritional content.

In this environment, it's easy to see why people resort to believing in things for which there is no factual evidence. There's no trustworthy person to provide such evidence if it did exist! Until the mainstream media proves itself worthy of our trust, or until a legitimate alternative is found, I see no way that we can move forward. We will simply continue to splinter along ideological lines into warring camps with near-religious belief in questionable ideas. And I think that stinks.

[SouthernDem2004]

146. Well said, thanks.

[OR Ruminator]

106. What are we become? US also prevented medical help from Fallujah.

From Reuters article, about Fallujah, November 14 2004:


No help has reached civilians since the offensive began on Monday and U.S. forces kept an Iraqi Red Crescent aid convoy of seven trucks and ambulances waiting at the main hospital near a bridge over the Euphrates River on the edge of Falluja.

A Reuters correspondent who drove through the city saw utter destruction. Bodies lay in the streets. Homes were smashed, mosques ruined, and power and telephone lines hung uselessly.

(Marine Colonel Mike) Shupp said the Red Crescent did not need to deliver aid to civilians in Falluja and questioned whether there were any.

Interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi, who has vowed to crush a raging insurgency before elections in January, said on Saturday there had been no civilian casualties in Falluja.

His assertion contradicted accounts from residents inside the city, where intense violence has halted medical services and made any independent assessment impossible since Monday.

"Our situation is very hard," said one resident contacted by telephone in the central Hay al-Dubat neighbourhood. "We don't have food or water. My seven children all have severe diarrhoea.

"One of my sons was wounded by shrapnel last night and he's bleeding, but I can't do anything to help him."

Abu Mustafa said he knew of six families nearby in a similar plight, before breaking down in tears. "We are still fasting, though it is the Eid (end of Ramadan feast) today. Allahu akbar, Allahu akbar (God is great)," he sobbed.

It is unclear how many of Falluja's 300,000 people remain, but about half are thought to have fled the fighting.

[Jose Diablo]

116. Of course the doctors were not allowed in

else they themselves would have reported the atrocities.

[anitar1]

124. I read about the U.S. keeping the Red Crescent

out of Falluja for many days. I thought that there must be something they wanted to hide. Maybe bodies were still burning? Something strange about that, and it was reported more than once here. Then it just disappeared from the press, in this country anyhow.I have no illusions about the absolute evil of the Iraq undertaking.Our country has a long and bloody history, which has been concealed somewhat by all the gov. propaganda about how great and wonderful we are. Those who doubt it should delve into history.War=money for the guys at the top.

[GetTheRightVote]

126. We can no longer afford to be naive, war is war is war

Never have we waged a war which when losing it we have not turned to these type of weapons. What the other nations are expressing is not based on nothing but based on the truth they as outside observers see. We are wrong to allow these actions on the part of our government to continue, we are just as wrong as the soldiers in the fields killing babies and mothers, etc. What are we going to do about it, this is our country, do not forget this fact. We must act and act quickly to stop the torture and murder of these people so that we are not a part of it, but apart from it.

:kick:

[chlamor]

127. Removing Soil Where US Military Used "Special Munitions"

He told me he has watched the military use bulldozers to push the soil into piles and load it onto trucks to carry away. This was done in the Julan and Jimouriya quarters of the city, which is of course where the heaviest fighting occurred during the siege, as this was where resistance was the fiercest. “At least two kilometers of soil were removed,” he explained, “Exactly as they did at Baghdad Airport after the heavy battles there during the invasion and the Americans used their special weapons.”

He explained that in certain areas where the military used “special munitions” 200 square meters of soil was being removed from each blast site.In addition, many of his friends have told him that the military brought in water tanker trucks to power blast the streets, although he hadn’t seen this himself. “They went around to every house and have shot the water tanks,” he continued, “As if they are trying to hide the evidence of chemical weapons in the water, but they only did this in some areas, such as Julan and in the souk (market) there as well.”


“In the mornings I found Fallujah empty, as if nobody lives in it,” he’d said, “Even poisonous gases have been used in Fallujah-they used everything-tanks, artillery, infantry, poison gas. Fallujah has been bombed to the ground. Nothing is left.”
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog/archives//000173.php#m...

[malaise]

134. I can't believe this

Innocent citizens in Iraq have had their country invaded based on lies and thousands of them - men, women, children and old people have been brutally slaughtered. FACT god damn it and it has been ignored by people shouting about freedom and 'great' elections. I can't take much more of the crap on this planet. I don't know which is worse - what they're doing or the grand denial. Invasion and murder - that is what has been going on - when the devil will American citizens wake up and stop this madness.

You posters are way too patient with people who refuse to face facts.
Edit - complete sentence.sp.

[riverwalker]

135. Reporters who were there

MUST be held accountable for not reporting the truth. I'm looking for a better list of who was there, meanwhile this will do. Google them for emails.

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/archive/2004_11_08_archive.asp


Fallujah: First TV Reporter In City: Kirk Spitzer
CBS News producer Kirk Spitzer is going to have a long, long day. He deserves credit for his reporting from Fallujah on Sunday. Spitzer, who is embedded with U.S. Special Forces and the Iraqi 36th Commando Battalion, was with soldiers as they stormed the city's main hospital.

Anchor Mika Brzezinski broke news of the assault just before 5pm in a CBS News Special Report. The CBS Evening News featured "exclusive pictures" from "the first American television journalist inside Fallujah." He is serving as a pool reporter...

# 11/8/2004 12:06:21 AM
Fallujah: A (Partial) List Of Embeds
> NBC News correspondent Kevin Sites is with the third battalion, first Marine regiment.

> CNN's Jane Arraf and Karl Penhaul are both "near Fallujah."

> FNC Lt. Col. Scott Rutter is embedded with Task Force 2-2 of the 1st infantry division. FNC's Greg Palkot is embedded with the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force.

> CBS's Elizabeth Palmer is embedded with the First Marine Expeditionary Force preparing for battle in Fallujah.

> The BBC's Paul Wood is "embedded with US Marines near Fallujah"

> Ann Garrels of National Public Radio is with the USMC on the periphery of Fallujah.

[SouthernDem2004]

143. Curious...

What truth is that?

[democrank]

136. Some of these responses are unbelievable.

I don`t care if you`re a soldier, a cop, a kindergarten teacher, a Wal-Mart checker or a brain surgeon. Ask yourself this:

If another government(based on lies)invaded this country, raided our homes, killed our loved ones, tore down our statues, took over our oilfields, destroyed our cities, changed our currency, allowed the looting of The Smithsonian, installed a puppet government, tortured our citizens and LEVELED one of our major cities with some kind of chemical weaponry, would we be terrorists if we fought back? And, would we spend time arguing whether the chemical weapon used was a kinda bad one or a really bad one or The Mother of All Bad Ones? NO!

What the hell has happened to us? This reminds me of Vietnam when the government swore up and down there was no such thing as Agent Orange. It took decades to get the truth about that disaster. Same thing this time. Mark my words. We should hang our heads in shame for the evil we`ve unleashed.

[bpilgrim]

138. they expose themselves for all of DU to see

and allow us to spread the word... just think with the M$MW's you would only get their side of the story.

:hi:

peace

[SouthernDem2004]

142. Reply:

You are making an assumption that we used chemical weapons when there still is not credible proof. The statement made by a single person in Iraq reported by an anti-American source is not reliable. Scroll up a few post and another poster posts a list of reporters that were there. The reporters saw none of this. Of course the conspiracy types are going to say they are covering up but those types see what they want.

[oldtimer2]

147. "U.S. Used Banned Weapons In Fallujah-Health Ministry"

:shrug:

My goodness, you folks will just believe anything.
Especially, if it makes the USA look bad. Yea, I know, :eyes: but u support the troops. Come on people, :think: