Gregorian
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Mon Feb-07-11 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #117 |
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By virtue of my failures, I have experienced more than most ever will. I quit a high paying job as an engineer in Silicon Valley to buy a tiny cabin in the woods. There a feral cat gave birth to kittens. I watched the whole thing as they grew. Then I moved from property to property. Six in all over the last fifteen years. And another coming up soon. All in a search for beauty that failed. Yet from reading your poem, didn't fail. I did experience beauty. And a ton of freedom to do whatever I wanted with all of my days. And variety. And truth. While riding my bicycle all over the logging trails of northern California, I found that the department of Fish and Game was really the police officer for big logging corporations. They didn't want us seeing the deforestation. But I saw it. And now I know where a piece of lumber comes from. It really woke me up to see the devastation. So it's easy to be upset. Now my cats are gone. And I still yearn for a home. The one I've been trying to find for over 15 years. I guess life was never easy. \
But after reading the entire paper you sent, I am still in a state of excitement. For 40 years I've been trying to tell people that when they look at a car, they don't see the entire infrastructure that went into making it. I completed a degree in machine tool technology before I became a mechanical engineer. I know what is going on behind the scenes. That paper is stunning in it's sense of clear and complete communication. I haven't been able to communicate so completely ass Lasse does. I'm absolutely inspired. I already sent the paper to a close friend. One who happens to be Finnish, by the way. I want to post it in other places, and hope it isn't too flagrant to do so. After all, I didn't find it. You did. I want to thank you again. This is not an insignificant moment in my life. I've spent 40 years yearning to see what is in that paper. It has brought a kind of liberation to me. I feel legitimate after reading it. I can't really put my finger on it, except that Lasse has done a brilliant job of communicating what I can't.
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| -For those who don't see overpopulation as a problem... |
Taverner |
Feb-04-11 01:24 PM |
#0 |
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Yep, all true!!! n/t |
RKP5637 |
Feb-04-11 01:28 PM |
#1 |
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Very true. But we will run out of potable water before we run out of food. |
loudsue |
Feb-04-11 01:29 PM |
#2 |
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You beat me to it! |
arcane1 |
Feb-04-11 01:30 PM |
#3 |
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I've never heard the potable water crash problem explained |
Taverner |
Feb-04-11 01:52 PM |
#16 |
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Supposedly it's due to climate change, but I suspect it has more to |
cutlassmama |
Feb-04-11 02:17 PM |
# |
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Well if the rain is safe to drink |
Taverner |
Feb-04-11 02:21 PM |
#26 |
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It's the really big elephant |
texastoast |
Feb-04-11 01:32 PM |
#4 |
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China has taken action! |
Thrustin |
Feb-06-11 12:05 PM |
#107 |
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Dictator! |
Gregorian |
Feb-04-11 01:33 PM |
#5 |
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Nope, the population should be half of what it is now. |
tabatha |
Feb-04-11 01:37 PM |
#6 |
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Or a plague will hit that reduces the population. This is a huge fear, hence swine flu pandemonium. |
Pisces |
Feb-04-11 01:48 PM |
#11 |
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To the planet, the human race is a self-limiting problem |
MH1 |
Feb-06-11 02:38 PM |
#112 |
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This is how Idiocracy is born... |
JuniperLea |
Feb-04-11 01:43 PM |
#8 |
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I know. |
Gregorian |
Feb-04-11 02:02 PM |
#17 |
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Anyone that's been around here for a while knows |
underseasurveyor |
Feb-04-11 02:07 PM |
#19 |
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Wow. |
Gregorian |
Feb-04-11 02:22 PM |
#27 |
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I've seen this first hand in my short life (I'm 40) |
Taverner |
Feb-04-11 02:25 PM |
#28 |
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I grew up in Palo Alto. |
Gregorian |
Feb-04-11 02:44 PM |
#34 |
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I have experienced and seen what you speak of. |
underseasurveyor |
Feb-04-11 10:45 PM |
#81 |
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I'm so grateful. |
Gregorian |
Feb-04-11 10:54 PM |
#82 |
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Perhaps you've heard of OSP. |
underseasurveyor |
Feb-04-11 11:06 PM |
#83 |
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Me too, although I confess I don't post about it much. |
MH1 |
Feb-06-11 02:43 PM |
#114 |
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Me too... |
JuniperLea |
Feb-04-11 02:18 PM |
#25 |
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The solution to that is to |
vim876 |
Feb-04-11 04:51 PM |
#55 |
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Or some of us can opt to have none |
csziggy |
Feb-05-11 12:55 AM |
#85 |
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Every time I hear this argument I think of this: |
Hello_Kitty |
Feb-04-11 05:59 PM |
#69 |
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I must confess: I have 2 kids |
Taverner |
Feb-04-11 02:42 PM |
#33 |
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In the UK, The Optimum Population Trust has "Stop at Two" as it's slogan |
muriel_volestrangler |
Feb-04-11 03:07 PM |
#39 |
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I like the slogan. |
Gregorian |
Feb-04-11 04:29 PM |
#51 |
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Water and other utility systems are antiquated too... |
JuniperLea |
Feb-04-11 01:40 PM |
#7 |
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You begin with "if" and that's where it collapses. |
aquart |
Feb-04-11 01:45 PM |
#9 |
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Changed 'if' to 'as' |
Taverner |
Feb-04-11 01:50 PM |
#14 |
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Simple math, really |
HereSince1628 |
Feb-04-11 01:47 PM |
#10 |
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That's a reasonable formula |
Newest Reality |
Feb-04-11 02:40 PM |
#31 |
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The thing is humans have multiple impacts, pick any value to represent that |
HereSince1628 |
Feb-04-11 02:54 PM |
#36 |
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Gardening species |
tama |
Feb-04-11 06:00 PM |
#70 |
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I think I need to know what you think gardening means. |
HereSince1628 |
Feb-04-11 06:41 PM |
#76 |
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Yup |
tama |
Feb-04-11 06:55 PM |
#77 |
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In terms of long-term sustainability, the population should probably be around 2 billion people. |
Spider Jerusalem |
Feb-04-11 01:49 PM |
#12 |
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There are solutions |
gratuitous |
Feb-04-11 01:50 PM |
#13 |
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There is the The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement... |
Xenotime |
Feb-07-11 01:06 PM |
#123 |
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Let's just cut to the bottom line. Overpopulation will cause the death of the planet and species. |
sinkingfeeling |
Feb-04-11 01:51 PM |
#15 |
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It may. It is. But I have always thought it would be a slow agonizing crash into |
Gregorian |
Feb-04-11 02:08 PM |
#20 |
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ditto |
stuntcat |
Feb-04-11 04:09 PM |
#50 |
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Every institution that we've built has had, |
The2ndWheel |
Feb-04-11 02:02 PM |
#18 |
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I agree with most of your very eloquent response |
Taverner |
Feb-04-11 02:13 PM |
#21 |
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If you remember Thomas Malthus... |
InvisibleTouch |
Feb-04-11 02:14 PM |
#22 |
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People are too quick to discount Malthus because of the green rev |
Taverner |
Feb-04-11 02:17 PM |
#24 |
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The GR ended in 1980. So did exponential population growth. |
GliderGuider |
Feb-04-11 03:12 PM |
#41 |
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The basic assumption |
tama |
Feb-04-11 02:15 PM |
#23 |
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So let me get this right |
Taverner |
Feb-04-11 02:29 PM |
#29 |
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You said that, not me |
tama |
Feb-04-11 04:42 PM |
#53 |
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I would like to agree with that. But here is what I see as one of the problems. |
Gregorian |
Feb-04-11 02:36 PM |
#30 |
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Just take a look at what would happen if a city doubled its population |
Taverner |
Feb-04-11 02:41 PM |
#32 |
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I know an engineer at the Marin sewage treatment facility. |
Gregorian |
Feb-04-11 02:51 PM |
#35 |
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So much of the bay area infrastructure is taken for granted |
Taverner |
Feb-04-11 03:22 PM |
#44 |
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A small correction - population growth is no longer exponential, because of the food supply |
GliderGuider |
Feb-04-11 03:10 PM |
#40 |
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It's exponential by virtue of it's biological process, no? |
Gregorian |
Feb-04-11 03:29 PM |
#45 |
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No, actually it's not. |
GliderGuider |
Feb-04-11 03:46 PM |
#46 |
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I think that model is called logistical growth. |
Gregorian |
Feb-04-11 04:40 PM |
#52 |
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In logistical growth the increase diminishes more and more |
GliderGuider |
Feb-04-11 05:34 PM |
#62 |
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Betting |
tama |
Feb-04-11 06:38 PM |
#74 |
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Are you basing some of this upon the Bosch Haber cycle? |
Gregorian |
Feb-04-11 09:28 PM |
#79 |
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No, my analysis isn't that detailed - it's less about the trees and more about the forest. |
GliderGuider |
Feb-05-11 07:39 AM |
#88 |
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That is exactly what I meant. |
Gregorian |
Feb-05-11 12:03 PM |
#91 |
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The effects I talk about are in addition to the ones you've noticed |
GliderGuider |
Feb-05-11 12:38 PM |
#94 |
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Yes. |
Gregorian |
Feb-05-11 02:58 PM |
#97 |
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It's wonderful to have men like that acting as examples. |
GliderGuider |
Feb-05-11 05:02 PM |
#99 |
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I have good friends also |
tama |
Feb-06-11 06:06 AM |
#101 |
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I'm amazed at the article you have posted here. |
Gregorian |
Feb-06-11 11:54 AM |
#106 |
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Thank you for being :) |
tama |
Feb-06-11 02:18 PM |
#111 |
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A poem by Cavafy |
tama |
Feb-07-11 05:13 AM |
#117 |
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I have been lucky. |
Gregorian |
Feb-07-11 11:50 AM |
#120 |
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By all means |
tama |
Feb-08-11 03:34 PM |
#125 |
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Consumerisim |
tama |
Feb-04-11 04:56 PM |
#57 |
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To put it short |
tama |
Feb-04-11 05:48 PM |
#68 |
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Thanks |
Gregorian |
Feb-05-11 12:20 PM |
#92 |
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Collective mental disorder |
tama |
Feb-05-11 01:47 PM |
#95 |
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That's so good to hear. |
Gregorian |
Feb-05-11 03:08 PM |
#98 |
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But, for the world, consumption per capita is increasing, not decreasing |
muriel_volestrangler |
Feb-04-11 03:54 PM |
#48 |
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AFAIK (from other stats) |
tama |
Feb-04-11 05:04 PM |
#59 |
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That data goes from 1980 (63.7m btu/person) to 2006 (72.4m) |
muriel_volestrangler |
Feb-04-11 05:43 PM |
#65 |
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It's not a recession |
tama |
Feb-04-11 06:13 PM |
#72 |
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Issue of the Millennium |
Spyderama |
Feb-04-11 02:56 PM |
#37 |
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I don't disagree with most of your post. |
Celeborn Skywalker |
Feb-04-11 03:07 PM |
#38 |
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Yes, you are correct there |
Taverner |
Feb-04-11 03:19 PM |
#43 |
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global fertility rate = 2.5 children per woman & declining. US, with about 5% of world population, |
Hannah Bell |
Feb-07-11 05:49 AM |
#119 |
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Great post. nt |
raccoon |
Feb-07-11 12:09 PM |
#122 |
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If the Ruling Class stopped profiting off energy and food.... |
leftstreet |
Feb-04-11 03:12 PM |
#42 |
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I think it's a problem, but I don't think it will be a problem for much longer. |
GliderGuider |
Feb-04-11 03:50 PM |
#47 |
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geezer here... |
alterfurz |
Feb-04-11 04:05 PM |
#49 |
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number of children decreasing in u.s. higher educated and wealth, fewer children. you want to go |
seabeyond |
Feb-04-11 04:43 PM |
#54 |
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That's the 800 lb gorilla in the corner, isn't it? |
WildEyedLiberal |
Feb-05-11 12:21 PM |
#93 |
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exactly. and note, you are the first to respond, lol. better to "pretend" otherwise. |
seabeyond |
Feb-05-11 02:30 PM |
#96 |
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Therein the eugenics discussion enters the room |
AngryAmish |
Feb-06-11 06:19 AM |
#103 |
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I don't want to "cull" anyone |
WildEyedLiberal |
Feb-06-11 10:04 PM |
#116 |
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It's at the base of most of our other global problems. |
arbusto_baboso |
Feb-04-11 04:52 PM |
#56 |
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No. Without competition for profit, our resources would be just fine n/t |
leftstreet |
Feb-04-11 05:05 PM |
#60 |
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"Without competition for profit".... |
arbusto_baboso |
Feb-04-11 05:36 PM |
#63 |
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Every sunset, every night |
tama |
Feb-04-11 06:40 PM |
#75 |
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For those who don't see quantitative thinking |
tama |
Feb-04-11 05:34 PM |
#61 |
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Given that the majority of people are fear-based in their decision making... |
arbusto_baboso |
Feb-04-11 05:38 PM |
#64 |
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Just more quantitative thinking |
tama |
Feb-04-11 06:35 PM |
#73 |
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Somebody tell the Duggars... |
DLine |
Feb-04-11 04:59 PM |
#58 |
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The solution to overpopulation is clear |
customerserviceguy |
Feb-04-11 05:44 PM |
#66 |
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lol's I like it |
stuntcat |
Feb-05-11 07:19 AM |
#87 |
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Over population is the basic problem to most all our troubles. |
RC |
Feb-04-11 05:47 PM |
#67 |
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There should be tax incentives for not breeding, yet it's the other way around. Plus, |
Shagbark Hickory |
Feb-04-11 06:09 PM |
#71 |
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So you think kids shouldn't get all that? |
Celeborn Skywalker |
Feb-04-11 07:16 PM |
#78 |
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Well........ |
Shagbark Hickory |
Feb-04-11 10:43 PM |
#80 |
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Or... |
vim876 |
Feb-06-11 06:10 AM |
#102 |
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That might be a solution but obiviously that's a pretty general statement without much detail on how |
Shagbark Hickory |
Feb-06-11 09:00 AM |
#104 |
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I'm a reluctant Malthusian myself. |
TroubleMan |
Feb-05-11 12:42 AM |
#84 |
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Yep... I have been saying it for years... we have to stop growing... but the capitalist system |
Jokinomx |
Feb-05-11 02:10 AM |
#86 |
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yes. |
stuntcat |
Feb-05-11 07:41 AM |
#89 |
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The population in the US is only growing because of immigration. |
lumberjack_jeff |
Feb-05-11 10:14 AM |
#90 |
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Look - it doesn't matter where it comes from |
Taverner |
Feb-05-11 05:24 PM |
#100 |
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As has been said, climate change will take care of the problem. |
KillCapitalism |
Feb-06-11 09:31 AM |
#105 |
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the planet could do with 5 billion less humans |
Mudoria |
Feb-06-11 12:16 PM |
#108 |
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Who do you wish to kill? Or at least sterilize? |
AngryAmish |
Feb-07-11 05:30 AM |
#118 |
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Soylent Green is people |
jcboon |
Feb-06-11 12:32 PM |
#109 |
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We must reduce our population or Mother Nature will do it for us. |
Odin2005 |
Feb-06-11 12:46 PM |
#110 |
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Rev, Malthus, you have been proven right so many times. |
AngryAmish |
Feb-06-11 04:44 PM |
#115 |
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Tell the Pope. |
Warren DeMontague |
Feb-06-11 02:41 PM |
#113 |
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People in industrialized nations use a heckuva lot more resources than those in |
raccoon |
Feb-07-11 12:08 PM |
#121 |
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Americans have the largest carbon footprint in the world. |
Xenotime |
Feb-07-11 01:07 PM |
#124 |
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overpopulation as it pertains to reproduction rates IS a problem in certain parts of the world. |
Warren DeMontague |
Feb-08-11 03:37 PM |
#126 |