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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #117
120. I have been lucky.
By virtue of my failures, I have experienced more than most ever will. I quit a high paying job as an engineer in Silicon Valley to buy a tiny cabin in the woods. There a feral cat gave birth to kittens. I watched the whole thing as they grew. Then I moved from property to property. Six in all over the last fifteen years. And another coming up soon. All in a search for beauty that failed. Yet from reading your poem, didn't fail. I did experience beauty. And a ton of freedom to do whatever I wanted with all of my days. And variety. And truth. While riding my bicycle all over the logging trails of northern California, I found that the department of Fish and Game was really the police officer for big logging corporations. They didn't want us seeing the deforestation. But I saw it. And now I know where a piece of lumber comes from. It really woke me up to see the devastation. So it's easy to be upset. Now my cats are gone. And I still yearn for a home. The one I've been trying to find for over 15 years. I guess life was never easy. \

But after reading the entire paper you sent, I am still in a state of excitement. For 40 years I've been trying to tell people that when they look at a car, they don't see the entire infrastructure that went into making it. I completed a degree in machine tool technology before I became a mechanical engineer. I know what is going on behind the scenes. That paper is stunning in it's sense of clear and complete communication. I haven't been able to communicate so completely ass Lasse does. I'm absolutely inspired. I already sent the paper to a close friend. One who happens to be Finnish, by the way. I want to post it in other places, and hope it isn't too flagrant to do so. After all, I didn't find it. You did. I want to thank you again. This is not an insignificant moment in my life. I've spent 40 years yearning to see what is in that paper. It has brought a kind of liberation to me. I feel legitimate after reading it. I can't really put my finger on it, except that Lasse has done a brilliant job of communicating what I can't.

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  -For those who don't see overpopulation as a problem... Taverner  Feb-04-11 01:24 PM   #0 
  - Yep, all true!!! n/t  RKP5637   Feb-04-11 01:28 PM   #1 
  - Very true. But we will run out of potable water before we run out of food.  loudsue   Feb-04-11 01:29 PM   #2 
  - You beat me to it!  arcane1   Feb-04-11 01:30 PM   #3 
     - I've never heard the potable water crash problem explained  Taverner   Feb-04-11 01:52 PM   #16 
        - Supposedly it's due to climate change, but I suspect it has more to  cutlassmama   Feb-04-11 02:17 PM   # 
           - Well if the rain is safe to drink  Taverner   Feb-04-11 02:21 PM   #26 
  - It's the really big elephant  texastoast   Feb-04-11 01:32 PM   #4 
  - China has taken action!  Thrustin   Feb-06-11 12:05 PM   #107 
  - Dictator!  Gregorian   Feb-04-11 01:33 PM   #5 
  - Nope, the population should be half of what it is now.  tabatha   Feb-04-11 01:37 PM   #6 
  - Or a plague will hit that reduces the population. This is a huge fear, hence swine flu pandemonium.  Pisces   Feb-04-11 01:48 PM   #11 
  - To the planet, the human race is a self-limiting problem  MH1   Feb-06-11 02:38 PM   #112 
  - This is how Idiocracy is born...  JuniperLea   Feb-04-11 01:43 PM   #8 
  - I know.  Gregorian   Feb-04-11 02:02 PM   #17 
  - Anyone that's been around here for a while knows  underseasurveyor   Feb-04-11 02:07 PM   #19 
  - Wow.  Gregorian   Feb-04-11 02:22 PM   #27 
     - I've seen this first hand in my short life (I'm 40)  Taverner   Feb-04-11 02:25 PM   #28 
     - I grew up in Palo Alto.  Gregorian   Feb-04-11 02:44 PM   #34 
     - I have experienced and seen what you speak of.  underseasurveyor   Feb-04-11 10:45 PM   #81 
     - I'm so grateful.  Gregorian   Feb-04-11 10:54 PM   #82 
        - Perhaps you've heard of OSP.  underseasurveyor   Feb-04-11 11:06 PM   #83 
     - Me too, although I confess I don't post about it much.  MH1   Feb-06-11 02:43 PM   #114 
  - Me too...  JuniperLea   Feb-04-11 02:18 PM   #25 
  - The solution to that is to  vim876   Feb-04-11 04:51 PM   #55 
  - Or some of us can opt to have none  csziggy   Feb-05-11 12:55 AM   #85 
  - Every time I hear this argument I think of this:  Hello_Kitty   Feb-04-11 05:59 PM   #69 
  - I must confess: I have 2 kids  Taverner   Feb-04-11 02:42 PM   #33 
     - In the UK, The Optimum Population Trust has "Stop at Two" as it's slogan  muriel_volestrangler   Feb-04-11 03:07 PM   #39 
        - I like the slogan.  Gregorian   Feb-04-11 04:29 PM   #51 
  - Water and other utility systems are antiquated too...  JuniperLea   Feb-04-11 01:40 PM   #7 
  - You begin with "if" and that's where it collapses.  aquart   Feb-04-11 01:45 PM   #9 
  - Changed 'if' to 'as'  Taverner   Feb-04-11 01:50 PM   #14 
  - Simple math, really  HereSince1628   Feb-04-11 01:47 PM   #10 
  - That's a reasonable formula  Newest Reality   Feb-04-11 02:40 PM   #31 
     - The thing is humans have multiple impacts, pick any value to represent that  HereSince1628   Feb-04-11 02:54 PM   #36 
        - Gardening species  tama   Feb-04-11 06:00 PM   #70 
           - I think I need to know what you think gardening means.  HereSince1628   Feb-04-11 06:41 PM   #76 
              - Yup  tama   Feb-04-11 06:55 PM   #77 
  - In terms of long-term sustainability, the population should probably be around 2 billion people.  Spider Jerusalem   Feb-04-11 01:49 PM   #12 
  - There are solutions  gratuitous   Feb-04-11 01:50 PM   #13 
  - There is the The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement...  Xenotime   Feb-07-11 01:06 PM   #123 
  - Let's just cut to the bottom line. Overpopulation will cause the death of the planet and species.  sinkingfeeling   Feb-04-11 01:51 PM   #15 
  - It may. It is. But I have always thought it would be a slow agonizing crash into  Gregorian   Feb-04-11 02:08 PM   #20 
  - ditto  stuntcat   Feb-04-11 04:09 PM   #50 
  - Every institution that we've built has had,  The2ndWheel   Feb-04-11 02:02 PM   #18 
  - I agree with most of your very eloquent response  Taverner   Feb-04-11 02:13 PM   #21 
  - If you remember Thomas Malthus...  InvisibleTouch   Feb-04-11 02:14 PM   #22 
  - People are too quick to discount Malthus because of the green rev  Taverner   Feb-04-11 02:17 PM   #24 
     - The GR ended in 1980. So did exponential population growth.  GliderGuider   Feb-04-11 03:12 PM   #41 
  - The basic assumption  tama   Feb-04-11 02:15 PM   #23 
  - So let me get this right  Taverner   Feb-04-11 02:29 PM   #29 
  - You said that, not me  tama   Feb-04-11 04:42 PM   #53 
  - I would like to agree with that. But here is what I see as one of the problems.  Gregorian   Feb-04-11 02:36 PM   #30 
  - Just take a look at what would happen if a city doubled its population  Taverner   Feb-04-11 02:41 PM   #32 
  - I know an engineer at the Marin sewage treatment facility.  Gregorian   Feb-04-11 02:51 PM   #35 
     - So much of the bay area infrastructure is taken for granted  Taverner   Feb-04-11 03:22 PM   #44 
  - A small correction - population growth is no longer exponential, because of the food supply  GliderGuider   Feb-04-11 03:10 PM   #40 
  - It's exponential by virtue of it's biological process, no?  Gregorian   Feb-04-11 03:29 PM   #45 
  - No, actually it's not.  GliderGuider   Feb-04-11 03:46 PM   #46 
     - I think that model is called logistical growth.  Gregorian   Feb-04-11 04:40 PM   #52 
        - In logistical growth the increase diminishes more and more  GliderGuider   Feb-04-11 05:34 PM   #62 
           - Betting  tama   Feb-04-11 06:38 PM   #74 
           - Are you basing some of this upon the Bosch Haber cycle?  Gregorian   Feb-04-11 09:28 PM   #79 
              - No, my analysis isn't that detailed - it's less about the trees and more about the forest.  GliderGuider   Feb-05-11 07:39 AM   #88 
                 - That is exactly what I meant.  Gregorian   Feb-05-11 12:03 PM   #91 
                    - The effects I talk about are in addition to the ones you've noticed  GliderGuider   Feb-05-11 12:38 PM   #94 
                       - Yes.  Gregorian   Feb-05-11 02:58 PM   #97 
                          - It's wonderful to have men like that acting as examples.  GliderGuider   Feb-05-11 05:02 PM   #99 
                          - I have good friends also  tama   Feb-06-11 06:06 AM   #101 
                             - I'm amazed at the article you have posted here.  Gregorian   Feb-06-11 11:54 AM   #106 
                                - Thank you for being :)  tama   Feb-06-11 02:18 PM   #111 
                                - A poem by Cavafy  tama   Feb-07-11 05:13 AM   #117 
                                   - I have been lucky.  Gregorian   Feb-07-11 11:50 AM   #120 
                                      - By all means  tama   Feb-08-11 03:34 PM   #125 
  - Consumerisim  tama   Feb-04-11 04:56 PM   #57 
  - To put it short  tama   Feb-04-11 05:48 PM   #68 
     - Thanks  Gregorian   Feb-05-11 12:20 PM   #92 
        - Collective mental disorder  tama   Feb-05-11 01:47 PM   #95 
           - That's so good to hear.  Gregorian   Feb-05-11 03:08 PM   #98 
  - But, for the world, consumption per capita is increasing, not decreasing  muriel_volestrangler   Feb-04-11 03:54 PM   #48 
     - AFAIK (from other stats)  tama   Feb-04-11 05:04 PM   #59 
        - That data goes from 1980 (63.7m btu/person) to 2006 (72.4m)  muriel_volestrangler   Feb-04-11 05:43 PM   #65 
           - It's not a recession  tama   Feb-04-11 06:13 PM   #72 
  - Issue of the Millennium  Spyderama   Feb-04-11 02:56 PM   #37 
  - I don't disagree with most of your post.  Celeborn Skywalker   Feb-04-11 03:07 PM   #38 
  - Yes, you are correct there  Taverner   Feb-04-11 03:19 PM   #43 
     - global fertility rate = 2.5 children per woman & declining. US, with about 5% of world population,  Hannah Bell   Feb-07-11 05:49 AM   #119 
        - Great post. nt  raccoon   Feb-07-11 12:09 PM   #122 
  - If the Ruling Class stopped profiting off energy and food....  leftstreet   Feb-04-11 03:12 PM   #42 
  - I think it's a problem, but I don't think it will be a problem for much longer.  GliderGuider   Feb-04-11 03:50 PM   #47 
  - geezer here...  alterfurz   Feb-04-11 04:05 PM   #49 
  - number of children decreasing in u.s. higher educated and wealth, fewer children. you want to go  seabeyond   Feb-04-11 04:43 PM   #54 
  - That's the 800 lb gorilla in the corner, isn't it?  WildEyedLiberal   Feb-05-11 12:21 PM   #93 
     - exactly. and note, you are the first to respond, lol. better to "pretend" otherwise.  seabeyond   Feb-05-11 02:30 PM   #96 
     - Therein the eugenics discussion enters the room  AngryAmish   Feb-06-11 06:19 AM   #103 
        - I don't want to "cull" anyone  WildEyedLiberal   Feb-06-11 10:04 PM   #116 
  - It's at the base of most of our other global problems.  arbusto_baboso   Feb-04-11 04:52 PM   #56 
  - No. Without competition for profit, our resources would be just fine n/t  leftstreet   Feb-04-11 05:05 PM   #60 
  - "Without competition for profit"....  arbusto_baboso   Feb-04-11 05:36 PM   #63 
     - Every sunset, every night  tama   Feb-04-11 06:40 PM   #75 
  - For those who don't see quantitative thinking  tama   Feb-04-11 05:34 PM   #61 
     - Given that the majority of people are fear-based in their decision making...  arbusto_baboso   Feb-04-11 05:38 PM   #64 
        - Just more quantitative thinking  tama   Feb-04-11 06:35 PM   #73 
  - Somebody tell the Duggars...  DLine   Feb-04-11 04:59 PM   #58 
  - The solution to overpopulation is clear  customerserviceguy   Feb-04-11 05:44 PM   #66 
  - lol's I like it  stuntcat   Feb-05-11 07:19 AM   #87 
  - Over population is the basic problem to most all our troubles.  RC   Feb-04-11 05:47 PM   #67 
  - There should be tax incentives for not breeding, yet it's the other way around. Plus,  Shagbark Hickory   Feb-04-11 06:09 PM   #71 
  - So you think kids shouldn't get all that?  Celeborn Skywalker   Feb-04-11 07:16 PM   #78 
     - Well........  Shagbark Hickory   Feb-04-11 10:43 PM   #80 
        - Or...  vim876   Feb-06-11 06:10 AM   #102 
           - That might be a solution but obiviously that's a pretty general statement without much detail on how  Shagbark Hickory   Feb-06-11 09:00 AM   #104 
  - I'm a reluctant Malthusian myself.  TroubleMan   Feb-05-11 12:42 AM   #84 
  - Yep... I have been saying it for years... we have to stop growing... but the capitalist system  Jokinomx   Feb-05-11 02:10 AM   #86 
  - yes.  stuntcat   Feb-05-11 07:41 AM   #89 
  - The population in the US is only growing because of immigration.  lumberjack_jeff   Feb-05-11 10:14 AM   #90 
  - Look - it doesn't matter where it comes from  Taverner   Feb-05-11 05:24 PM   #100 
  - As has been said, climate change will take care of the problem.  KillCapitalism   Feb-06-11 09:31 AM   #105 
  - the planet could do with 5 billion less humans  Mudoria   Feb-06-11 12:16 PM   #108 
  - Who do you wish to kill? Or at least sterilize?  AngryAmish   Feb-07-11 05:30 AM   #118 
  - Soylent Green is people  jcboon   Feb-06-11 12:32 PM   #109 
  - We must reduce our population or Mother Nature will do it for us.  Odin2005   Feb-06-11 12:46 PM   #110 
  - Rev, Malthus, you have been proven right so many times.  AngryAmish   Feb-06-11 04:44 PM   #115 
  - Tell the Pope.  Warren DeMontague   Feb-06-11 02:41 PM   #113 
  - People in industrialized nations use a heckuva lot more resources than those in  raccoon   Feb-07-11 12:08 PM   #121 
  - Americans have the largest carbon footprint in the world.  Xenotime   Feb-07-11 01:07 PM   #124 
  - overpopulation as it pertains to reproduction rates IS a problem in certain parts of the world.  Warren DeMontague   Feb-08-11 03:37 PM   #126 
 

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