You are viewing an obsolete version of the DU website which is no longer supported by the Administrators. Visit The New DU.
Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Reply #83: Posner is establishment, not altermative. [View All]

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #51
83. Posner is establishment, not altermative.
http://www.geocities.com/mdmorrissey/logical7

"Posner, who exposed himself to serious researchers as a government shill with his first book on the JFK murder (Case Closed), dismisses the entire trial as a farce, "a cynical scheme to give some official sanction to the discredited theory that the Kings enthusiastically endorse" as part of the "persistent effort of the Kings to help Pepper exonerate Ray and to charge instead that much of the federal government killed Dr. King." These references to a "discredited theory" and a "charge" come, mind you, at the very end of a 923-word article that makes no mention of the actual finding, which is neither a "theory" nor a "charge" but a verdict. Posner, as a lawyer, knows the difference, but he obviously does know want his readers to know, and cannot quote the 50 plain words of Judge Swearengen (see above) for fear of exposing himself too plainly as the legal farce, not the trial in which 12 jurors heard 70 witnesses in three and a half weeks of testimony and concluded unanimously that the US government was involved in a conspiracy to "do harm to" MLK.

The phrase "do harm" was used by the judge instead of "murder" because this was a civil suit, not a criminal trial, but there can hardly be any doubt that the harm done was to kill him. I say "hardly" because I also have no doubt that Posner--if he had thought of it--would not have hesitated to claim that this refers not to the murder but to the FBI campaign to discredit King before the murder. There was such a campaign, of course, but even the scantest glance at the trial transcript makes it clear that murder is meant, since Jowers was not involved in the FBI defamation campaign, but only in the murder.

Posner does apply his legal expertise to the distinction between civil and criminal trials in an attempt to discredit the evidence. This point was taken up by a number of other journalists as well. It's is a bit tricky, so let's look at it :

The civil standard is only a "preponderance of the evidence" as opposed to the more stringent "beyond a reasonable doubt" of a criminal trial. And in the four-week trial that just finished in Memphis, Pepper had a field day. With a hands-off judge who allowed almost everything to come into the record, coupled with an astonishingly lethargic defense offered by Jowers, Pepper essentially had an uncontested month to argue the theory set forth in his book.


Note the incoherence between the first sentence and the rest of the paragraph. I am not a lawyer, just an English teacher, but I can recognize that "preponderance of evidence" does not have to with the kind of evidence that is allowed, but with the certainty of the conclusions based on the evidence. Posner's implication is that the evidence produced in this trial, because it was a civil trial, is less reliable, less "evidential," less credible, less factual that it would be if it were produced in a criminal trial. This is absurd. It would mean that, say, 5 witnesses testifying that Joe Blow was wearing brown shoes at a certain time on a certain day is somehow less reliable, credible, factual, etc. than the same 5 witnesses testifying to the exact same thing in a criminal trial.

If Posner were honest, he would report that the Jowers verdict says that the US government was probably part of the conspiracy to murder MLK. This is less certain, legally, than saying it is beyond reasonable doubt (which could not be determined unless the US government was tried for murder). But it is still too much for Posner. He cannot allow it to stand that it was established in a court of law that the US government probably killed MLK. He knows that the public does not react so cavalierly to the notion of a civil suit being inconsequential, since in other cases they can result in penalties of millions of dollars, even though this one awarded only $100 to the King family. (Another possible approach for Mr. Posner, Esq.: Why, this suit only involed $100. It would be much more credible if the damages were $1 million!)

The truth of the Jowers trial, even with "probably," is suppressed completely, and the further implication is the evidence that convinced the jury of this (probable) conclusion was less reliable than if it had been a criminal trial. If he had said it this way, it would be a lie, so he says it indirectly. The fact is that the evidence is just as credible as it would have been in a criminal trial, even if the sum total of this evidence would have had to be greater to prove complicity (conspiracy).

Posner does not mention any of this evidence, because it would destroy the power of his innuendo, which is that the evidence is unreliable because it was presented in a civil trial. He cannot deny the testimonial evidence that African-American police officers and firefighters had been pulled from duty in the vicinity of King's motel room, that normal security had been withdrawn in the hours before the shooting, that the sniper's bullet had come from the bushes across from the motel room and not from the rooming house where Ray was, that the bushes were removed by the Memphis police and the FBI the morning after the shooting (thus sanitizing the crime scene), that two Army officers with cameras were positioned on the roof of the fire station, also across from the motel, during the shooting, that an Army sniper team had been sent to Memphis to shoot an "unknown" target on April 4 and were being transported to Memphis when their mission was suddenly cancelled (the back-up team), etc.

Of course you can argue about this evidence. Maybe the witnesses were all lying. But this is not the point, and even Posner doesn't try to imply that lying witnesses are more likely to be found in a civil trial than a criminal trial. He has to leave it at innuendo, because anything more specific would be an obvious lie. If the Army filmed the shooting from the fire station roof, the Army filmed the shooting from the fire station roof. This testimony would not become more credible in a criminal trial, which is what Posner wants us to believe."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
  -James Earl Ray did not Assassinate MLK reprehensor  Apr-03-08 05:16 PM   #0 
  - Dr. King was mudered after he began to speak out agressively against encomic inequality in America.  Political Heretic   Apr-03-08 05:19 PM   #1 
  - DIGG this post!  reprehensor   Apr-04-08 09:29 AM   #61 
     - dugg  beezlebum   Apr-04-08 10:14 AM   #68 
  - Well done, reprehensor!  Juniperx   Apr-03-08 05:21 PM   #2 
  - He was killed because he was a democratic socialist.  Selatius   Apr-03-08 05:26 PM   #3 
  - I never realized he made that quote. Very revealing.  Canuckistanian   Apr-03-08 06:35 PM   #17 
  - When you think about it, he probably was the most influential socialist in American history.  Selatius   Apr-03-08 10:47 PM   #26 
     - Thank you. I didn't realize..  ananda   Apr-04-08 04:54 PM   #94 
  - In his papers  H2O Man   Apr-04-08 06:15 AM   #42 
  - That Is What I Consider Myself to Be: A Democratic Socialist  fascisthunter   Apr-04-08 08:22 AM   #48 
  - I was just thinking the same thing. ...n/t  Just-plain-Kathy   Apr-04-08 08:48 AM   #54 
  - Exactly. (nt)  redqueen   Apr-04-08 09:33 AM   #62 
  - This quote:  Ilsa   Apr-04-08 07:39 PM   #99 
  - I think G Gordon Liddy was there that day.  alfredo   Apr-03-08 05:30 PM   #4 
  - Just part of the fascist takeover  nichomachus   Apr-03-08 05:36 PM   #5 
  - Yes - For Al His Flaws Nixon Was Lightyears Ahead Of Mainstream Republicans  lostnotforgotten   Apr-03-08 09:40 PM   #24 
  - Well . . . the times were different. So was Eisenhower re the military ---  defendandprotect   Apr-03-08 11:16 PM   #30 
  - I just wonder why Eisenhower waited so long to make it  Art_from_Ark   Apr-04-08 02:49 AM   #39 
     - He knew the danger  formercia   Apr-04-08 06:13 AM   #41 
        - Yep. If he'd had an 'accident' we would have had President  NCevilDUer   Apr-04-08 09:22 AM   #59 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-04-08 01:15 AM   #35 
  - you forgot-wage and price controls  madrchsod   Apr-04-08 07:32 AM   #46 
     - Yep,  NCevilDUer   Apr-04-08 09:23 AM   #60 
  - Excellent summary. Very much recommended  DrDebug   Apr-03-08 05:40 PM   #6 
  - How would you rate the way they pulled this off?  Ifonly   Apr-03-08 08:54 PM   #22 
  - Interesting question . . . evidently there was the final team there. .. . just in case ---  defendandprotect   Apr-03-08 11:20 PM   #31 
  - This was mainly a local team  DrDebug   Apr-04-08 02:36 AM   #38 
  - self delete wrong place  ooglymoogly   Apr-04-08 01:18 PM   #87 
  - James Earl Ray A Sexual Blackmailer???  LukeSkywalker   Apr-03-08 11:23 PM   #32 
  - Wow!  Maestro   Apr-04-08 04:26 PM   #92 
  - Just an excellent post!  ancient_nomad   Apr-03-08 05:44 PM   #7 
  - If you only have time for one...  reprehensor   Apr-04-08 02:56 PM   #89 
  - Excellent!  flashl   Apr-03-08 06:08 PM   #8 
  - K&R and let us never forget ...  Myrina   Apr-03-08 06:09 PM   #9 
  - K&R  sfexpat2000   Apr-03-08 06:10 PM   #10 
  - Great post  malaise   Apr-03-08 06:17 PM   #11 
  - Great Post- Thom Hartman is covering this story tomorrow which  Ichingcarpenter   Apr-03-08 06:24 PM   #12 
  - Thanks so much Ichingcarpenter  seemslikeadream   Apr-03-08 07:56 PM   #21 
  - Thanks for that --- I'll definitely be trying to listen to Hartman tomorrow --  defendandprotect   Apr-03-08 11:09 PM   #27 
  - The third hour of the Show today  Ichingcarpenter   Apr-04-08 11:08 AM   #75 
  - Let the Kings Rest In Peace.  applegrove   Apr-03-08 06:28 PM   #13 
  - "Ray did not kill Dr. King, no matter how many times CNN, ABC, NBC, tell you that he did"  JohnyCanuck   Apr-03-08 06:29 PM   #14 
  - IMO it makes a mockery of the citizens.  redqueen   Apr-04-08 09:43 AM   #65 
  - and Rev. Jeramiah Wright said in a speech,  onethatcares   Apr-03-08 06:29 PM   #15 
  - K&R  Devlzown   Apr-03-08 06:32 PM   #16 
  - Another K&R -  Delphinus   Apr-03-08 06:36 PM   #18 
  - If you only have time to watch one...  reprehensor   Apr-04-08 05:38 PM   #97 
  - K&R&bookmarked. (nt)  Kurovski   Apr-03-08 06:40 PM   #19 
  - Wow. Great post. Thanks for the summary.  jeffrey_X   Apr-03-08 07:47 PM   #20 
  - The Assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. was an Act of State  Orwellian_Ghost   Apr-03-08 09:07 PM   #23 
  - I read this book within the last month or so.  BuyingThyme   Apr-04-08 05:05 PM   #96 
  - I went to the CNN feedback page  JohnyCanuck   Apr-03-08 09:42 PM   #25 
  - What's CNN . . . ????  defendandprotect   Apr-03-08 11:14 PM   #29 
     - True n/t  JohnyCanuck   Apr-04-08 01:20 AM   #36 
  - Thank you! And bookmarked --- and will try to move the info around . . .  defendandprotect   Apr-03-08 11:12 PM   #28 
  - J. Edgar Hoover...  TTUBatfan2008   Apr-03-08 11:49 PM   #33 
  - Thank you. What if...  autorank   Apr-04-08 12:09 AM   #34 
  - And of course...  TTUBatfan2008   Apr-04-08 01:23 AM   #37 
  - judge joe brown?  muryan   Apr-04-08 03:57 AM   #40 
  - Yes.  BuyingThyme   Apr-04-08 05:02 PM   #95 
     - i was unaware that at any point in time  muryan   Apr-05-08 02:06 AM   #101 
  - eh you made me late to work  barbtries   Apr-04-08 06:33 AM   #43 
  - Song of Freedom  formercia   Apr-04-08 06:50 AM   #44 
  - "Redemption Song"  H2O Man   Apr-04-08 06:53 AM   #45 
     - For your pleasure....  formercia   Apr-04-08 08:24 AM   #49 
        - Thank you.  H2O Man   Apr-04-08 08:55 AM   #55 
  - Government and truth in the same sentence...a true oxymron.  BrklynLiberal   Apr-04-08 07:42 AM   #47 
  - 'An Act of State' (video)  Octafish   Apr-04-08 08:31 AM   #50 
  - An alternative viewpoint  maui9002   Apr-04-08 08:37 AM   #51 
  - Posner is establishment, not altermative.  reprehensor   Apr-04-08 12:34 PM   #83 
     - I agree with Reprehensor on Posner  Christs4sale   Apr-04-08 07:23 PM   #98 
  - great post, Thanks  notadmblnd   Apr-04-08 08:40 AM   #52 
  - Glad this "conspiracy" thread hasn't been 'dungeoned'  Echo In Light   Apr-04-08 08:40 AM   #53 
  - kicking  Orwellian_Ghost   Apr-04-08 09:10 AM   #56 
  - K&R!  junofeb   Apr-04-08 09:10 AM   #57 
  - kicking and recommending this entire thread.  yardwork   Apr-04-08 09:21 AM   #58 
  - Why am I not shocked by this? n/t  whereismyparty   Apr-04-08 09:35 AM   #63 
  - It was some OTHER guy on a nearby balcony with a rifle.  Deep13   Apr-04-08 09:36 AM   #64 
  - But can a shoooter  DiktatrW   Apr-04-08 10:27 AM   #70 
  - I'm not willing to assume that happened.  Deep13   Apr-04-08 11:45 AM   #78 
     - where do you get "mock trial"?  DiktatrW   Apr-05-08 07:22 AM   #102 
  - More info.  reprehensor   Apr-04-08 10:57 AM   #74 
     - Well, the dent wasn't necessarily caused by the gun.  Deep13   Apr-04-08 11:55 AM   #80 
        - The gun was ditched 10 minutes before the shooting . . . .  defendandprotect   Apr-04-08 12:23 PM   #81 
  - K&R.  hisownpetard   Apr-04-08 09:55 AM   #66 
  - kr  Progs Rock   Apr-04-08 10:12 AM   #67 
  - Video: MLK: Beyond Vietnam -- A Time to Break Silence  reprehensor   Apr-04-08 10:21 AM   #69 
  - K'd, R'd and bookmarked - very, very glad to see this in GD.  stubtoe   Apr-04-08 10:41 AM   #71 
  - Thom Hartman is covering this story TODAY  seemslikeadream   Apr-04-08 10:49 AM   #72 
  - Lee Harvey Oswald did it.  kwassa   Apr-04-08 10:53 AM   #73 
  - King family lawyer, William Pepper, gives his perspective  JohnyCanuck   Apr-04-08 11:09 AM   #76 
  - K&R, this needs to be rated to the top in honor of Dr. King!  AntiFascist   Apr-04-08 11:42 AM   #77 
  - Rest in peace Doctor King. Some day justice will be served. k&r  pauldp   Apr-04-08 11:50 AM   #79 
  - Recommend --- and listening to Thom Hartmann ---  defendandprotect   Apr-04-08 12:32 PM   #82 
  - When it happened, most of us didn't fall for the "lone gunman" theory.  valerief   Apr-04-08 12:53 PM   #84 
  - Amen. Those of us who were alive back then must continue to  greyghost   Apr-04-08 03:36 PM   #90 
  - Thank you for this.  PeaceNikki   Apr-04-08 12:58 PM   #85 
  - thanks so much  psychmommy   Apr-04-08 01:06 PM   #86 
  - If you have limited time...  reprehensor   Apr-04-08 09:09 PM   #100 
  - One of the best and most cogent posts I have seen on DU  ooglymoogly   Apr-04-08 01:29 PM   #88 
  - I Knew Abourt the Loyd Jowers Part,  ribofunk   Apr-04-08 03:39 PM   #91 
  - Very informative post!  Maestro   Apr-04-08 04:27 PM   #93 
  - ...  redqueen   Apr-05-08 12:00 PM   #103 
 

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC