Reply #298: I apprecitate this conversation,

[salin]

and could not have had it after reading the post I refered to earlier (as it spiked my reactions). I appreciate your receptiveness to the context from which I and others might have (in my case, though I had been "away" from the discussions, so I didn't) and have had per your framing.

This is where I would guess folks depart - and since we agreed earlier that we were on the same point... I think that it is important.

Some rapes are completely - from planning to start to finish - about violence, power and dominance.

Others start in from a more sex-oriented stand point... this could be mutual or one-sided, but the initial motivations for starting off the chain of events are about sex (be it mutually kissing, or akwardsly trying to kiss someone who doesn't want to be kissed). I think most folks would agree with this. Where the difference is what happens in the chain of events, and at the point where one person indicates no (strongly ... in my case both verbally and physically, to the more quiet - frozen in fear - small voice - still made (voice or action) but not quite as strongly, but where the person who started wanting sex moves into the "she says no... but since I want it, I know that really no means yes" to rationalize the next actions). In this point the act moves beyond sex and takes on a tone of power (because I want it, I either force it on you... or convince myself that while you don't admit it you must want it so I must force it on you...). Point is I bet the quibble isn't so much about how the action starts - but about what it is about when the actual act of rape occurs.

Reframing your argument - to look at stages, and how the dynamic changes at different stages of the incident, would probably open up far more open conversations.

Another point of advice - you may want to explain how you think the societal conversation would change (and I completely agree that it has failed!) - and why opening up this line of discussion may provide an avenue for altering our sad societal record.

I think that formulating those ideas and contextualizing them (per the sex vs power stages idea) could offer an invitation to an interesting conversations. Particularly to the issue of acquaintance/date rape.