Reply #21: Transcript of SFRC Kerry 2/15/06

[TayTay]

Senator Kerry?

KERRY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I really didn't expect to say anything on this subject at all, but I just wanted to pick up very quickly on what Senator Chafee said. Holding elections themselves, Madam Secretary, doesn't mean you have a democracy. An election does not mean democracy.

And there was great, intense desire on the part of Israel as well as President Abbas not to have that election at that period of time. And it was our insistence that we proceed forward.

I happen to agree with the position that you can't deal with Hamas. I think that's absolutely correct. You can't sit down with people, negotiate water rights and moving across the borders and all the other things with people that are blowing you up at the same time.

So I agree with that.

But there really is a serious question here about the overall approach.

I met with President Abbas the day he was elected, January a year ago.

And he looked at me, and he said, "Senator, I know what the expectations are, but I don't have the capacity. I don't have police cars. I don't have radios. I don't have trained people. I don't have the ability to do what they expect of me. And I need help."

And I've talked to Jim Wolfensohn, as have others, and a lot of other people. And the bottom line is, I regret to say, the West, not just us, the West didn't come through. And Hamas had a greater ability to deliver in the streets a year and a half ago than Fatah.

Now, Fatah had its corruptions. We all understand that. But I believe that there is a measure of responsibility for the West's lack of adequate response with respect to trying to help.

We're not responsible for the outcome, but we certainly are responsible for our actions in between.

What I want to ask you, a number of questions, one about Iraq -- a couple about Iraq. But before I do, we learned last week that Lewis "Scooter" Libby authorized -- was authorized by his superiors, reportedly Vice President Cheney, we don't know the answer, to leak classified information from the pre-war national intelligence estimate on Iraq to the press in the summer of 2003.

And my question is: Are you aware of any authorized leaks of classified information or anyone instructing someone to leak classified information to members of the press?

RICE: Senator, this question has arisen in the context of a legal issue, an investigation. And I'm just not going to comment on anything related to the case of Scooter Libby.

KERRY: Well, can you tell us whether or not you have personally ever authorized a leak of classified information to any members of the press?

RICE: Senator, this question, again, arises in the context of the Scooter Libby case...

KERRY: No, that arises in the context of your responsibilities within the White House at any time or now. Have you ever authorized the leak of classified information to the press?

RICE: Senator, I'm not going to talk about something that arises in the context of an investigation in a legal case.

KERRY: It doesn't arise...

RICE: I have always acted lawfully within my duties as national security adviser and now as secretary...

KERRY: Let me ask you this question: Do you support the practice of authorizing individuals to leak classified information to the press?

RICE: Senator, I believe that the protection of classified information is one of our highest duties. I have always endeavored to protect classified information and to make certain that if classified information is going to be used in any way, that procedures were followed, including procedures for making certain that the intelligence agencies were comfortable or had agreed that such information could be declassified. So I've always followed the rules.

KERRY: So you do not support it. You do not support the leaking. RICE: I believe that the protection of classified information is our highest -- one of our highest duties.

KERRY: Thank you, Madam Secretary.

The other day, General Kimmitt, Mark Kimmitt, gave a speech in London to the Institute of Strategic Studies, wherein he reportedly said the United States will not maintain any long-term bases in Iraq.

KERRY: Our position is, when we leave, we won't leave any bases there.

I wrote to General Pace to follow up on this, and General Pace wrote me back and said: "At present, the Department of Defense has no plans for the permanent basing of U.S. forces in Iraq."

This has long been an issue of contention.

So, you know, General Casey has said, "The sense of American occupation is part of what feeds the insurgency."

The administration, however, has never formally said, "We're not going to have permanent bases."

So I would ask you today: Is it, in fact, the policy of this administration not to have permanent basing in Iraq?

RICE: I think General Pace has spoken to that, Senator, and he speaks for the administration.

Senator, our job now is to use our forces to help the Iraqis gain control of their own security environment, to train their forces to protect our people who need to go out in the field to be a presence outside of Baghdad.

That is the purpose of our forces.

As the president said, we don't want to be there one day longer than we need to be.

KERRY: I understand that, and we all want that transition. I'm just trying to figure out what the long term is, because I don't think the administration has actually said that before with clarity.

So if you're affirming today what the generals have said as the policy, that's a step forward.

RICE: Well, Senator, I think General Pace has spoken to this.

I don't want to, in this forum, try and prejudge everything that might happen all the way into the future. The policy of this administration is to, as quickly as possible, turn over responsibility for security to the Iraqis and, as the president said, we will be very pleased the day when American forces can come home. KERRY: So the conclusion for what you've just said is that the civilian leadership, which is how we lead the military in the United States, has a different position from the uniformed leadership -- which is you're reserving the right to make that decision in the future?

RICE: Senator, I said I'm not going to try to speak to something that is that far into the future.

KERRY: I heard what you said. I understand.

RICE: We are...

KERRY: No, I understand.

RICE: Yes. Sorry.

KERRY: I got your answer.

Finally -- last area, because I know the light's going on here -- when I was in Iraq a few weeks ago, I had a good meeting, I thought it was a good meeting, with Abdel Aziz al-Hakim. And he made it pretty clear to me in that meeting that the SCIRI Party had no intention of changing the constitution; that they might accept some so-called technical, ministerial people in a couple of the key ministries -- Interior, Defense, Finance.

And the question I would ask you is -- but nobody, not even the ambassador, who is very skilled and who we all have great respect for, was able to identify who those people might be.

Now, given al-Jaafari's ratification as the new prime minister again -- in a very, very divided vote and one that sends shivers through the Sunni -- can you tell us what is happening with respect to the efforts to leverage real political reconciliation that, in fact, delivers to the Sunnis sufficient guarantees that you undermined the insurgency -- because every military leader has made it clear that this insurgency does not get resolved at the barrel of a gun; it will be resolved only through the political settlement?

And the prospects of that settlement, given what has happened already in this choice, and the problems with Mr. Allawi's party and their being left out, et cetera, leaves major, major questions on the table.

Could you walk us through that a bit, please?

RICE: Well, Senator, I wouldn't draw any conclusions just yet as to the work that still remains for Mr. Jaafari and others in bringing others on-board so that, in fact, they can govern.

I would remind that the Shia Alliance does not have a majority. It therefore has to form a broad national unity government, bringing other parties in, even if the Shia Alliance holds together.

So I think they have a ways to go yet. KERRY: But you'd agree with me that the key to that national unity government, which we all understand is key...

RICE: Oh, of course.

KERRY: ... and we accept that...

RICE: It's absolutely key.

KERRY: ... is to get those ministries filled with the proper people?

RICE: It is. And it's also very important to...

KERRY: And to change the constitution.

RICE: Well, the Sunnis have wanted some changes to the constitution. That is certainly something that will need to happen.

But I would let the Iraqi political process play out for a while here. There is a lot of politics still to be done to bring together a coalition.

We keep talking as if Mr. Jaafari is the only issue here. He's not.

KERRY: I understand that.

RICE: He cannot govern without bringing others on board. And so I'm quite sure that there will be many demands from others as to what happens now going forward. That, indeed, is the nature of politics.

KERRY: But the fundamental division of federalism, which is a SCIRI Party goal, a major goal, with major political ambitions attached to it, versus a national, quote, "unity," is a real -- that's a big tension.

RICE: Of course it's a tension, Senator. There are tensions in any political system.

You know, our own political life began by being unfortunately unable for a number of years to resolve the issue of slavery. We nonetheless managed to create ourselves as a union.

I don't think the Iraqis have anything quite that bad, yet, on their plate. And so I would say let's let this maturing political system now deal with the various tensions within it concerning what will happen about federalism, what will happen to changes in the constitution. These are precisely the discussions that are going to have to go on for Mr. Jaafari or whoever becomes prime minister to form a national unity government.

Yes, we do know some of the people that are being considered for key posts. I think obviously we want to reserve those discussions for the Iraqis, rather than publicly talking about their own process of government formation.

But we're very involved in helping them to work through this extremely difficult period.

But this is the core of their politics right now. So far they have demonstrated a capacity to get through every single phase together, rather than split apart.

They did get through the writing of a constitution together, rather than splitting apart.

And I think they will continue to do it, because that's what the political context is.

Senator, if I may, just very briefly, though, on the elections, because I agree with you: Elections don't mean democracy. I've never yet, however, seen a democracy begin without an election. And so we shouldn't underestimate the importance of elections.

What it means is that in our policies we have to work harder to help develop civil society and moderate political forces into political parties. That can't happen in an authoritarian environment. The notion that you can somehow have the practices of democracy underneath an authoritarian regime, so that then when you have an election, you have all of these well-developed parties that can compete, I think is just not logical.

So, yes, I think that you have to take, if you will, the opportunity for an election to stimulate the political system then to begin the process of building a full-fledged democracy.

As I said, elections don't mean democracy, but I've never seen one begin without an election.

KERRY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the comment. Actually, the American democracy began with a revolution, not an election.

RICE: Yes, they had an election fairly soon afterward, I believe, Senator, and that's when democracy really began.

KERRY: And with respect to Iraq, I mean, ultimately we had a Civil War to resolve the issue of slavery, and there are many people who argue that Iraq is already in a low-intensity civil war. And if you don't resolve the differences in this constitution, it will get worse.

So my point, Mr. Chairman, is simply that there are a lot of players over there and a lot of others, who do not see the pieces of the political -- can we get there? I believe we can. I think Senator Biden, as a lot of us have felt -- and we've stuck with this concept that success is critical and there's a way to get there.

(UNKNOWN): I think we're getting beyond it.

KERRY: But there are a lot of people who feel that opportunity after opportunity to realistically deal with that is just being obliterated and ignored.

RICE: Senator, I would just urge a little patience with the Iraqis. That was my point about the American democracy is it took us a while to work some of these issues out. I don't think the Iraqis are headed, tumbling toward civil war. I...

KERRY: So a little patience. The American people have already sustained a war that has gone on longer than World War II, longer than it took us to beat the Axis powers and have invested in ultimately what will be up to $300 billion and some say half a trillion dollars for their defense. That's pretty patient.

RICE: The Iraqis have been at the process of government formation for one year. That is really not very long in...

KERRY: The only point I'm making, Madam Secretary... RICE: And they had to overthrow, Senator, a brutal dictator. And yes, they've had to learn the patterns of coming to terms with each other political rather than through violence. And that takes some time.

KERRY: All I point to are the fundamentals. And if the fundamentals remain as divided as they are, and growing worse, not better, we have a problem.

LUGAR: Thank you very much, Senator Kerry.