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Reply #39: "No longer existant does not mean never existed." [View All]

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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-11 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. "No longer existant does not mean never existed."
I agree, my children's club argument was bad.

Suppose a group of people from 1785 were to Rip Van Winkle themselves to 1835. They would still 'imagine' the Articles of Confederation to be the law of the land and their state currency to have value, yet neither would be the case even if they didn't encounter anyone who knew otherwise. This is because government, monetary value, laws, etc. operate independently of human imagination. Another example would be a group of children who are ignorant of the government under which they live. They don't imagine their local government, yet it operates.

I agree, even if someone has no concept of a law, that person may be affected by it. The reason is other people do have a concept of the law, and they act on those concepts.

Laws are agreements some people make. Legislators pass a law, "no smoking in schools." The police have already agreed to enforce any law the legislator has passed. The schools agree to cooperate, most of the students agree to cooperate, etc. I think we both agree on this.

What is the source of agreements? Where are agreements? I think the answer is our imaginations.
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  -Imaginary things even many skeptics believe in. ZombieHorde  Jul-14-11 12:17 PM   #0 
  - I disagree  TZ   Jul-14-11 01:03 PM   #1 
  - I did not claim, and I do not believe abstract concepts are imaginary.  ZombieHorde   Jul-14-11 01:23 PM   #2 
  - Isn't anything measurable real?  EvolveOrConvolve   Jul-14-11 04:35 PM   #3 
  - Let's examine it. Will you pick one and talk about how you would measure it? nt  ZombieHorde   Jul-14-11 05:20 PM   #5 
  - I've never understood the appeal of virgins.  laconicsax   Jul-14-11 04:41 PM   #4 
  - explanation is easy  lazarus   Jul-14-11 07:10 PM   #6 
  - Apparently, Jihadist Muslims would kill for a pack of inexperienced lovers. nt  ZombieHorde   Jul-14-11 09:20 PM   #7 
  - I understand it perfectly  TZ   Jul-15-11 07:01 AM   #8 
  - Political borders  semillama   Jul-15-11 11:40 AM   #9 
  - Good one. nt  ZombieHorde   Jul-15-11 01:00 PM   #10 
  - etc for the ones delinated by natural features like rivers and oceans.  TZ   Jul-15-11 02:02 PM   #11 
     - The border of any country is imaginary. People who think they are measuring actual boarders  ZombieHorde   Aug-02-11 05:04 PM   #61 
        - Are you saying that the Rio Grande is imaginary, or...  laconicsax   Aug-02-11 05:11 PM   #62 
           - I am saying...  ZombieHorde   Aug-02-11 05:16 PM   #64 
  - free will  enki23   Jul-15-11 07:10 PM   #12 
  - Amen  jberryhill   Jul-18-11 09:25 PM   #16 
  - 7. A coherent self.  Odin2005   Jul-15-11 08:01 PM   #13 
  - Snuffleupagus  Deep13   Jul-15-11 10:38 PM   #14 
  - The value of money  jberryhill   Jul-18-11 09:24 PM   #15 
  - The shared belief and resulting agreement makes it real.  laconicsax   Jul-18-11 10:58 PM   #17 
     - The value is entirely imaginary  jberryhill   Jul-18-11 11:09 PM   #18 
     - Bad analogy.  laconicsax   Jul-19-11 12:03 AM   #19 
        - "it's legitimacy as having value is backed by law"  ZombieHorde   Jul-23-11 10:31 PM   #23 
           - You've defined imaginary as 'only existing in our imagination.'  laconicsax   Jul-24-11 12:06 AM   #26 
              - Those things don't exist outside of our imaginations.  ZombieHorde   Jul-24-11 02:14 AM   #27 
                 - No longer existant does not mean never existed.  laconicsax   Jul-24-11 05:04 PM   #34 
                    - "No longer existant does not mean never existed."  ZombieHorde   Jul-25-11 02:01 PM   #39 
     - Imaginary things can have real results; e.g., religion.  ZombieHorde   Jul-23-11 10:27 PM   #22 
        - Is it my imagination that I can exchange money for goods and services?  laconicsax   Jul-23-11 11:50 PM   #24 
           - No, but the amount and type of goods and services you can aquire with money  ZombieHorde   Jul-24-11 02:28 AM   #28 
              - I think you mean artificial, not imaginary.  laconicsax   Jul-24-11 05:06 PM   #35 
                 - I think artificial constructs only exist in our imaginations.  ZombieHorde   Jul-25-11 01:46 PM   #38 
                    - "Imagination," "imaginary," "imagined," etc. are inadequate terms for this discussion.  laconicsax   Jul-25-11 05:14 PM   #40 
                       - Gods and imaginary friends may be very different from person to person,  ZombieHorde   Jul-26-11 01:32 PM   #42 
  - This will quickly become semantics but to me imaginary does not equal nonexistent.  dmallind   Jul-22-11 11:24 AM   #20 
  - "Laws certainly exist in tangible written form, data bits, etc,"  ZombieHorde   Jul-23-11 10:24 PM   #21 
  - I have to ask you to name something that truly does exist, by your criteria  Orrex   Jul-23-11 11:56 PM   #25 
  - If something can be, even if no one knows about it, then it is real.  ZombieHorde   Jul-24-11 02:40 AM   #29 
     - Is the number 3 real?  Orrex   Jul-24-11 06:37 AM   #30 
        - The concept of the number three is a real concept, but there is no three.  ZombieHorde   Jul-24-11 11:21 AM   #31 
           - I disagree, and you're still equivocating  Orrex   Jul-24-11 12:30 PM   #32 
              - "Government is an aritifical construct imbued by its creators"  ZombieHorde   Jul-24-11 01:14 PM   #33 
                 - Explain to me what you mean by a "real concept"  Orrex   Jul-24-11 08:14 PM   #36 
                    - "Explain to me what you mean by a "real concept"  ZombieHorde   Jul-25-11 01:41 PM   #37 
                       - You just contradicted yourself.  trotsky   Jul-26-11 09:43 AM   #41 
                          - An honest mistake on my part. Why reinvent the wheel? Let's look at the dictionary.  ZombieHorde   Jul-26-11 01:42 PM   #43 
                             - OK, you pick the definition(s) you want to use.  trotsky   Jul-26-11 01:55 PM   #44 
                                - OK.  ZombieHorde   Jul-26-11 02:44 PM   #45 
                                   - Ah, now you're shifting your equivocation to the word "imaginary."  trotsky   Jul-27-11 06:10 AM   #46 
                                      - I started my OP with the word imaginary.  ZombieHorde   Jul-27-11 10:18 AM   #47 
                                         - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Jul-27-11 10:27 AM   #48 
                                         - Seriously, dude?  trotsky   Jul-27-11 02:41 PM   #50 
                                         - Fallacious arguments make me sad.  ZombieHorde   Jul-28-11 01:43 AM   #52 
                                            - On that we completely agree. n/t  trotsky   Jul-28-11 06:05 AM   #54 
                                         - That, by the way, was the opener to my international law class  jberryhill   Aug-08-11 12:33 AM   #76 
  - To my fellow skeptics.  ZombieHorde   Jul-27-11 12:19 PM   #49 
  - Isn't one major point really that imaginary things might still be useful?  greyl   Jul-28-11 12:02 AM   #51 
  - I agree, imaginary things can be very useful. nt  ZombieHorde   Jul-28-11 01:44 AM   #53 
  - Several people have answered your questions already.  Orrex   Jul-29-11 12:26 PM   #57 
  - I am not trying to equate real and tangible. Where is love?  ZombieHorde   Aug-02-11 04:50 PM   #59 
     - But you have claimed that thoughts are real  Orrex   Aug-03-11 01:28 PM   #69 
  - in a sense, they aren't imaginary. they're behavior.  enki23   Aug-01-11 10:02 AM   #58 
  - Do you think that pain is imaginary?  Jim__   Jul-29-11 09:36 AM   #55 
  - Good points and the arguments he has been making  TZ   Jul-29-11 12:08 PM   #56 
  - I would love to see a clear list of the logical fallacies I am using, and teling me  ZombieHorde   Aug-02-11 05:11 PM   #63 
     - Would you feel better if, rather than calling your argument illogical, we called it nonsensical?  Orrex   Aug-03-11 12:55 AM   #65 
        - Sense is imaginary.  laconicsax   Aug-03-11 02:38 AM   #66 
        - Do you really not understand agreements don't exist outside of the imagination?  ZombieHorde   Aug-03-11 11:35 AM   #68 
           - I understand that perfectly.  laconicsax   Aug-03-11 01:58 PM   #70 
              - Oh, sorry. nt  ZombieHorde   Aug-03-11 02:13 PM   #71 
              - .  Orrex   Aug-03-11 07:29 PM   #73 
        - Perhaps a concrete example will help you out.  ZombieHorde   Aug-03-11 11:33 AM   #67 
  - "Would you classify pain as imaginary?"  ZombieHorde   Aug-02-11 04:56 PM   #60 
     - Do you think pain exists outside of our imagination? If so, where does it exist?  Jim__   Aug-03-11 04:57 PM   #72 
        - My wife teaches anatomy, so I asked her what pain is.  ZombieHorde   Aug-05-11 12:08 PM   #74 
           - "A witch's love spell may have specific trappings and words, but that doesn't make the spell any ...  Jim__   Aug-07-11 10:07 AM   #75 
  - An important distinction not made simply by using the word "imaginary"...  Silent3   Aug-16-11 03:20 PM   #77 
     - +1  laconicsax   Aug-16-11 04:30 PM   #78 
     - Can you explain what you mean by...  ZombieHorde   Aug-21-11 03:55 PM   #79 

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