greyl
(1000+ posts)
|
Fri Nov-17-06 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #43 |
| 64. Every salvationist religion has varieties, but the crucial similarity remains. |
 |
They all assume humans are divinely flawed using one turn of phrase or another. It's very difficult to see this from inside our culture because it's so pervasive. Salvationist religions only exist within our culture, because they are the product of only our culture. Everyone in our global culture, East or West, understands what it means when someone tells them "Let me show you how to be saved". Attempt to explain that and the other assumptions of any of the 5 major salvationist religions to the woman in the photo below, and she will probably look at you as if you were quite peculiar - with damn good reason. She isn't leading an unfilling life within the prison of a failing cultural experiment which whispers in her ear from the moment of birth that she is divinely flawed or doomed to endless suffering unless.  Humanity doesn't need some divine salvation from its physiological/biological lot in life. If anything, it and the rest of the community of life need to be saved from our very young culture. Faith won't fix our culture, nor will it save the world, because it is the absolutely false tenets of faith which are the problem. Not humanity.
|
Faith Won't Heal a Divided World |
Freedom_from_Chains |
Nov-16-06 10:27 AM |
#0 |

Harris doesn't think faith will |
TallahasseeGrannie |
Nov-16-06 10:35 AM |
#1 |
 
He provides damn solid reasons for his view. |
greyl |
Nov-16-06 10:44 AM |
#2 |
  
Every time I post one of these they become damn silent |
Freedom_from_Chains |
Nov-16-06 11:27 AM |
#3 |
   
Well, arguments against Harris aren't just lying around everywhere, so |
greyl |
Nov-16-06 11:49 AM |
#7 |
    
You're an optimist! |
Freedom_from_Chains |
Nov-16-06 11:51 AM |
#8 |
   
Why do anyone of us need to prove anything to you? |
kwassa |
Nov-16-06 02:37 PM |
#15 |
    
Exactly |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 02:41 PM |
#17 |
   
I'm curious what you think the difference is between spreading beliefs |
greyl |
Nov-16-06 04:03 PM |
#22 |
   
In the context of religion? |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 05:44 PM |
#25 |
   
No, not in religious context - including it. |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 10:01 AM |
#62 |
    
It's not a cop-out. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 11:39 AM |
#72 |
   
Faults seen in Harris's argument can't be replicated for others? |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 02:10 PM |
#83 |
   
Wait... what? |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 03:27 PM |
#99 |
   
"there's no need for me to justify that belief to others." |
Zhade |
Nov-17-06 10:43 PM |
#144 |
   
Explain something to me |
TallahasseeGrannie |
Nov-17-06 09:19 AM |
#59 |
  
But would you go to a crochet forum and refuse to discuss your techniques? n/t |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 02:58 PM |
#93 |
  
Ahhhhh "I see, said the blind man!" |
TallahasseeGrannie |
Nov-17-06 03:38 PM |
#101 |
  
You are always open to discussion...both sides luv ya... |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 03:59 PM |
#104 |
  
Thank you very much |
TallahasseeGrannie |
Nov-17-06 07:35 PM |
#129 |
  
The Abrahamic-centric notion that all theists believe in Hell, for one. |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 11:30 AM |
#4 |
   
O.K. so when you look at the major religions of the world |
Freedom_from_Chains |
Nov-16-06 11:45 AM |
#5 |
    
Your estimates appear to be off |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 02:46 PM |
#19 |
   
Didn't notice this earlier. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 02:28 PM |
#87 |
   
Buddhism and Hinduism have the "same" thing. |
greyl |
Nov-16-06 11:47 AM |
#6 |
    
Yeah, I have been really concerned lately about those Buddhist |
Freedom_from_Chains |
Nov-16-06 11:53 AM |
#9 |
     
Pol Pot was a Buddhist |
kwassa |
Nov-16-06 03:14 PM |
#20 |
    
He was raised as one... |
catbert836 |
Nov-16-06 05:54 PM |
#27 |
     
Actually, he attended Catholic School as a child. n/t |
Finder |
Nov-16-06 06:19 PM |
#29 |
     
The medieval Japanese used Buddhism as an excuse for some pretty |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Nov-16-06 09:00 PM |
#40 |
      
Well said. (n/t) |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 09:07 PM |
#44 |
      
a central function of the samurai? Guarding crops. nt |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 10:43 AM |
#65 |
     
And that is germane to the discussion exactly how? |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Nov-17-06 12:49 PM |
#80 |
     
Locking up the food is a policy that distinguishes our culture |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 02:13 PM |
#84 |
     
How are you to know he wasn't practicing? |
kwassa |
Nov-16-06 09:44 PM |
#46 |
    
Interesting thing here, kwassa. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 04:07 PM |
#106 |
    
Though I would agree that he wasn't a practicing Buddhist |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-17-06 05:01 PM |
#114 |
     
This just devolves into the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 05:34 PM |
#128 |
    
Nope... |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-18-06 02:14 AM |
#156 |
    
Are you calling me a hypocrite? |
kwassa |
Nov-17-06 05:10 PM |
#121 |
    
Just wanted you to explain the apparent double standard. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 05:27 PM |
#125 |
    
Not at all. |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 01:13 PM |
#10 |
   
On the contrary. |
greyl |
Nov-16-06 02:25 PM |
#12 |
   
It's not eternal |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 02:29 PM |
#13 |
   
Depends on which variety of Buddhism you're talking about |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Nov-16-06 09:06 PM |
#43 |
   
Every salvationist religion has varieties, but the crucial similarity remains. |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 10:34 AM |
#64 |
   
Name the five "salvationist" religions |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 11:49 AM |
#74 |
   
If Christians aren't afraid of Hell, that's no problem either, correct? |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 02:09 PM |
#82 |
   
Strawman |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 03:24 PM |
#97 |
   
Since when is hell an "Abrahamic" notion? |
struggle4progress |
Nov-17-06 10:03 PM |
#135 |
  
Since about 100 BCE. (n/t) |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 10:09 PM |
#136 |
  
It certainly doesn't seem to be one of Abraham's notions. |
struggle4progress |
Nov-17-06 10:17 PM |
#137 |
  
That's not what "Abrahamic religion" means. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 10:20 PM |
#138 |
  
Of course. Incidently, Judaism isn't united on the subject of hell. |
struggle4progress |
Nov-17-06 10:34 PM |
#139 |
  
I believe I actually argued that somewhere in this thread. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 10:38 PM |
#141 |
  
Ah, yes. #97. Sorry. Didn't see it before |
struggle4progress |
Nov-17-06 10:42 PM |
#143 |
  
The thread is growing at a rather rapid pace |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 10:45 PM |
#145 |
  
Actually I kind of like his writings |
TallahasseeGrannie |
Nov-16-06 01:37 PM |
#11 |
 
You have an internal dialogue which bears fruit, correct? |
greyl |
Nov-16-06 02:35 PM |
#14 |
  
You are way, way outta my league now, |
TallahasseeGrannie |
Nov-16-06 02:44 PM |
#18 |
   
What does being a creativity facilitator have to do with it? :) |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 09:46 AM |
#60 |
  
I'm willing to bet that TG teaches her students truths that can't be |
Ron_Green |
Nov-16-06 05:17 PM |
#24 |
   
Thank you very much |
TallahasseeGrannie |
Nov-16-06 05:59 PM |
#28 |
  
What is "maieutic teaching?" |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-17-06 11:09 AM |
#67 |
 
Quite the opposite, really. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 11:51 AM |
#75 |
  
Thanks Kiahzero |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-17-06 05:04 PM |
#116 |
 
I was too, and never heard it till later. |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 02:22 PM |
#85 |
 
Yes, formal logic can prove just about anything, but it's all about the axioms |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 02:39 PM |
#16 |
 
I don't think so. Can you give me an example |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 09:51 AM |
#61 |
 
I was only discussing validity. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 11:34 AM |
#71 |
 
Well, that's the rub. That means a better phrasing would be: |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 02:28 PM |
#86 |
 
Fallacies generally refer to the validity of an argument, not the soundness. (n/t) |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 03:26 PM |
#98 |
 
Generally? That means you admit the existence of |
greyl |
Nov-20-06 09:25 AM |
#173 |
 
Just what I was thinking! |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-16-06 03:47 PM |
#21 |
  
Actually, Harris pretty effectively destroyed the tolerant/moderate viewpoint. |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 05:08 PM |
#23 |
 
Hardly |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 05:48 PM |
#26 |
  
You misstate his position. |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 07:50 PM |
#30 |
   
A number of reasons: |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 08:05 PM |
#31 |
  
So you're saying there is one, agreed-upon, 100% certain interpretation? |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 08:40 PM |
#34 |
  
No |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 08:42 PM |
#36 |
  
Why do you have to misstate Harris' position? |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 08:48 PM |
#38 |
  
Maybe I will write him to try and figure out what the hell he means, then. |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 09:05 PM |
#42 |
  
Alternative interpretations have existed as long as the texts |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-16-06 09:12 PM |
#45 |
  
Well sure they've been arguing. |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 10:10 PM |
#48 |
  
What's the difference between scholarship and |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 08:13 AM |
#55 |
  
You're misunderstanding. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 08:41 AM |
#57 |
  
Scholarship is academic and secular... |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 02:05 PM |
#81 |
  
I should have read yours first! |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-16-06 08:17 PM |
#33 |
 
I disagree |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-16-06 08:16 PM |
#32 |
 
Nope, he's not doing that. |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 08:42 PM |
#35 |
 
He is arguing that only fundamentalists "fully embrace" scripture. |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 08:44 PM |
#37 |
  
Nope. |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 08:49 PM |
#39 |
 
I don't think so |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-16-06 09:03 PM |
#41 |
 
Sorry, not reading it the same way you are. |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 10:08 PM |
#47 |
  
What is he saying about moderates, then? |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 10:11 PM |
#49 |
 
That you're enabling the extremists. |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 10:19 PM |
#50 |
 
So "at face value" is the only valid way to interpret the texts? |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 10:21 PM |
#51 |
  
So the Christians in 300CE *didn't* believe in a virgin birth? |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 10:24 PM |
#52 |
 
Your assurances are misplaced |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 11:01 PM |
#53 |
 
Hold on there. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 08:38 AM |
#56 |
 
I'm not Christian |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 11:24 AM |
#70 |
 
Actually you backed way off. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 11:45 AM |
#73 |
 
I think you're misstating the liberal position on the Bible. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 12:08 PM |
#76 |
 
There is no one "liberal" position on the bible. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 12:22 PM |
#77 |
 
No, I'm not saying there's only one position. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 12:29 PM |
#78 |
  
Sure you are. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 12:37 PM |
#79 |
  
And again, entirely possible |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 02:40 PM |
#91 |
  
Sounds to me that such a god |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 03:10 PM |
#95 |
  
I don't think it's God's choice -- I think it's our human limitations |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 04:32 PM |
#109 |
  
So, god doesn't know about these limitations? |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 05:31 PM |
#127 |
  
If God manipulated events in the way you suggest, there |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 08:26 PM |
#131 |
  
Ah yes, the old free will conundrum. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 10:41 PM |
#142 |
  
You continue to base you view on the idea that God |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-18-06 08:11 AM |
#162 |
  
An active god is not necessary to see the problem. |
trotsky |
Nov-18-06 11:37 AM |
#166 |
  
The short version: "All believers pick and choose what they believe... |
Zhade |
Nov-17-06 11:03 PM |
#149 |
  
Yup! |
trotsky |
Nov-18-06 11:47 AM |
#169 |
 
"They all prayed to god and got different answers?" |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 02:33 PM |
#89 |
 
And then they went and killed each other over those different answers. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 03:11 PM |
#96 |
 
You really don't think people would find plenty of other things |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 04:29 PM |
#108 |
 
Stay on topic, please. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 05:28 PM |
#126 |
 
You branched off here, I just responded. |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 08:28 PM |
#132 |
 
Right. Limitations. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 10:37 PM |
#140 |
 
It's a sneaky way of blaming God, isn't it? nt |
greyl |
Nov-18-06 07:40 AM |
#158 |
 
Yeah, interesting, isn't it? |
trotsky |
Nov-18-06 11:39 AM |
#167 |
 
The necessary flip-side of free will nt |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-18-06 08:12 AM |
#163 |
 
"humanity's limitations" ! Goddammit. |
greyl |
Nov-18-06 07:31 AM |
#157 |
 
Reasoning isn't the same thing as "secular" you know |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 08:10 AM |
#54 |
  
See post #57. n/t |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 08:44 AM |
#58 |
 
Pardon me, may I butt in here? |
cosmik debris |
Nov-17-06 08:10 PM |
#130 |
 
Clarify which remark? |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 10:51 PM |
#146 |
 
Actually, the Free Exercise clause does privilege religious exercise (n/t) |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 10:55 PM |
#147 |
  
It enumerates it as a right, sure. Like the right to bear arms, or speak freely. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 11:02 PM |
#148 |
 
That's a secular law, though. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 11:04 PM |
#150 |
 
Um, yes? |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 11:05 PM |
#151 |
 
It was a joke. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 11:09 PM |
#152 |
 
Okey dokey. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 11:12 PM |
#153 |
 
This remark: |
cosmik debris |
Nov-17-06 11:37 PM |
#154 |
 
Read Harris' full article. |
trotsky |
Nov-18-06 11:42 AM |
#168 |
 
But isn't the book supposedly the word of God? |
WakingLife |
Nov-17-06 10:13 AM |
#63 |
  
This is the problem... |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-17-06 11:24 AM |
#69 |
  
That's just it -- we're absolutely not |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 02:29 PM |
#88 |
 
I'd love it if |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 02:50 PM |
#92 |
  
You know, if I had exhibited even a part of the disdain for |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 04:26 PM |
#107 |
   
If I've torn your view apart, fantastic. |
greyl |
Nov-18-06 07:51 AM |
#159 |
  
But I don't want to. |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-17-06 05:13 PM |
#123 |
 
All liberal Christians I'm aware of talk about "identifying bullshit" |
greyl |
Nov-18-06 07:54 AM |
#160 |
 
How do you know Paul existed? |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 04:45 PM |
#111 |
  
You don't know what we do accept and what we don't |
kwassa |
Nov-17-06 04:54 PM |
#113 |
   
The response is to post 88. n/t |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 05:05 PM |
#118 |
   
What do you accept? n/t |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 05:07 PM |
#119 |
  
No, I accept that within what is written, truth can be found |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 08:33 PM |
#133 |
 
Exactly, JerseygirlCT |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-17-06 05:09 PM |
#120 |
 
But the official Catholic definition of 'inspired' goes beyond that |
muriel_volestrangler |
Nov-18-06 08:09 AM |
#161 |
 
Well, having grown up RC, I think it's pretty safe to say |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-18-06 08:15 AM |
#164 |
 
Actually, the RCC discourages reading the scriptures without a guide... |
Finder |
Nov-18-06 11:01 AM |
#165 |
 
How do you know that is what Harris meant? |
kwassa |
Nov-18-06 12:07 PM |
#170 |
 
What do you think "Scriptural ignorance" means? n/t |
Finder |
Nov-18-06 03:10 PM |
#171 |
 
Sorry, but I think this is your own personal interpretation of Harris |
kwassa |
Nov-18-06 10:03 PM |
#172 |
 
Especially when you take the |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-17-06 11:17 AM |
#68 |
 
I agree. And I find the idea that using literary tools |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 02:37 PM |
#90 |
 
The End of Faith was never sold as a Perfect Book, yet |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 03:01 PM |
#94 |
  
I'm disagreeing with the argument presented. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 03:31 PM |
#100 |
 
First of all, what is the premise you are calling false?... |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 03:49 PM |
#102 |
 
This premise: |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 03:54 PM |
#103 |
 
This premise is false: |
kwassa |
Nov-17-06 04:02 PM |
#105 |
 
Not at all...let me ask you.... |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 04:33 PM |
#110 |
 
Required by who? |
kwassa |
Nov-17-06 04:51 PM |
#112 |
 
Does it matter which God? n/t |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 05:02 PM |
#115 |
 
There is no God but God |
kwassa |
Nov-17-06 05:05 PM |
#117 |
 
What do you base that on? |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 05:12 PM |
#122 |
 
You and I are on the same page in this discussion |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-17-06 05:17 PM |
#124 |
 
Thank you! |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 08:36 PM |
#134 |
 
That one caught be off guard, too, Grannie! |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-17-06 11:03 AM |
#66 |

I don't think faith itself will heal it. |
Elrond Hubbard |
Nov-17-06 11:47 PM |
#155 |

Love, and only Love? No, that's woefully inadequate as stated. |
greyl |
Nov-20-06 09:42 AM |
#174 |