Reply #47: Ok then, let's talk about OTOH's positions

[Time for change]

Obviously I can't presume to talk about all his posts, because I haven't seen them all, and you may be referring to some stuff I haven't seen. So, I'll just stick to what I know.

You're probably wondering why I, who have posted numerous threads on DU that provide evidence for and support the view that Kerry won the 2004 election, would defend someone who is one of the chief arguers against that view. That's a legitimate question, and here are my legitimate reasons:

1. NOBODY has helped me more than OTOH in my attempts to accumulate non-exit poll related evidence that Kerry won the election. We have exchanged hundreds of e-mails off of DU on this and similar subjects, and it is safe to say that some of my best posts on this subject would not have occurred without his help.

2. I don't judge a person's motivations solely on the basis of their conclusions on technical/scientific issues. Yes, I have disagreed and do disagree with OTOH about the likelihood that Kerry won the election, and we have argued about this a great deal. And certainly it is true that far more Kerry voters believe that Kerry won the election than do Bush voters. But I certainly don't see OTOH's beliefs in this regard as an indication that he is less of a Democrat than the rest of us. What is important in this regard is not who you believe won the election, but how hard you are willing to work to find the truth.

3. You may disagree, but OTOH presents very good arguments. As such, I think that it's very important to have him participate in our discussions. I have learned a lot from his arguments, and they have helped me in pursuing election issues. So how do I explain our disagreement on the main issue? I think that he is overly scientific/cautious about this. Many scientists are. But also, see reason # 4.

4. I understand OTOH's "devil's advocate" kind of stance towards things because I have that kind of mind set myself. In fact, I used to drive my father crazy with my constant disagreements with him. That kind of mind set is one that has the view "If an argument has a weakness and I discuss that weakness, even though I may not be against the conclusion, then we're all likely to learn something in the process". So, OTOH attacks what he sees as weak arguments whenever he sees them. I don't do that myself these days, because I have other priorities, but that doesn't mean that I don't see the usefulness of what he does.

5. It IS true that one of OTOH's pet peeves is over-reliance on the value of the exit polls, including the refusal on the part of many DUers to even consider the possibility of bias. OTOH is absolutely correct that bias needs to be at least considered in any argument about the exit polls, because not to do so dis-credits us. One of my best posts was a long discussion of why I felt that the exit poll discrepancy with the official vote indicated fraud rather than exit poll bias: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=371726&mesg_id=371726. Who was the first person to support this thread? And why was he so supportive of a OP that argued for a Kerry victory (and I didn't even know him then)? Because it at least discussed the need to consider the role of bias in an assessment of the meaning of the exit polls.

6. And just to drive home the point that OTOH is willing to support what he sees as a good argument for a Kerry victory, who was one of two people to come to my support against at attack on my latest thread to make a case for a Kerry victory?: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4998616&mesg_id=4998616. (See post # 54.)


So, in summary, I think that we Democrats need to realize that we're on the same team, and not get hostile with those who disagree with us, not over moral or political issues, but over technical/scientific issues. Good arguments can help us to find the truth, even if their conclusions are wrong. We ought to use those arguments as they were meant to be used, to assist us in our search for the truth, rather than waste our energy by getting angry over them.