You are viewing an obsolete version of the DU website which is no longer supported by the Administrators. Visit The New DU.
Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login

Reply #53: an explanation why the federal ban is problematic [View All]

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
53. an explanation why the federal ban is problematic
Previous decisions striking down "partial birth abortion" laws have criticized the absence of a "health of the mother" exception and have relied on factual findings regarding the medical need for and safety of such procedures in certain situations.

The federal legislation contains a series of very specific "factual findings" that state that the "moral, medical and ethical consensus" is that the practice of performing "partial birth abortions" is "never medically necessary". These findings go on to state that the procedure is "unnecessary to preserve the health of the mother" and, in fact, pose risks to the mother's health and, in some cases, her life. Based on this "finding" that "partial birth abortion" is "never medically indicated to preserve the health of the mother" the legislation declares that there is no constitutional need for a "health" exception.

There are two problems with this: first, the idea that Congress can make this finding takes the issue out of the hands of doctors, which is where it should be determined. I do not believe that that the medical evidence in fact supports the finding. And if the constitution can be subverted just because Congress "finds" that up is down or black is white, well...welcome to 1984, a couple of decades after the fact.

Finally, after blustering on for paragraph after paragraph with respect to the absence of any medical need, ever, for the procedure, the legislation does include an exception where the procedure is "necessary to save the life of the mother" due to a "physical" disorder, illness or injury. Of course, what if its unclear whether the mother will live or die? Is it "necessary". Its one of those things that's easier to know after the fact. For example, what if she's got a condition that's going to kill her, but going through with the pregnancy will kill her sooner, or prevent her from getting life-preserving treatment in a timely fashion.

In short, the problem is that the law pretends medical issues are all yes/no, either/or, life/death, black and white in nature. Ain't so. Never will be. And the fact that Congress wants to pretend otherwise is what's horribly scary.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
  -"Late-Term Abortion" -- Let's get our facts straight Sparkly  Dec-17-04 10:52 AM   #0 
  - Kerry took a major hit for his vote vs late term abortion bill  blackangrydem   Dec-17-04 10:55 AM   #1 
  - How did he vote?  janx   Dec-17-04 10:57 AM   #4 
     - he voted against banning it  JI7   Dec-17-04 12:40 PM   #33 
        - It came up in the second debate, I believe.  blackangrydem   Dec-17-04 06:08 PM   #86 
  - I thought late term abortion was classified in  MemphisTiger   Dec-17-04 10:57 AM   #2 
  - I don't know if there's a clear definition  Sparkly   Dec-17-04 11:00 AM   #5 
  - life & health  sandnsea   Dec-17-04 11:31 AM   #24 
  - More on this topic.  madfloridian   Dec-17-04 10:57 AM   #3 
  - Right. The fundies came up with the term "partial birth abortion"--  janx   Dec-17-04 11:02 AM   #6 
  - You're ahead of me  Sparkly   Dec-17-04 11:04 AM   #9 
  - It's a relatively new one.  janx   Dec-17-04 11:08 AM   #12 
     - OmiGAWD!!  Sparkly   Dec-17-04 11:11 AM   #14 
        - That's what I said.  janx   Dec-17-04 11:13 AM   #17 
           - OK, that means that I was "aborted"....  Solon   Dec-17-04 12:37 PM   #31 
  - Hysterotomy is also used for the simple excision of fibroid tumors  yellowdogintexas   Dec-17-04 01:36 PM   #52 
  - Their argument is that Life of the mother is interpreted  MemphisTiger   Dec-17-04 11:03 AM   #7 
  - That was REALLY crazy  Sparkly   Dec-17-04 11:03 AM   #8 
  - The medical point of view.  snippy   Dec-17-04 11:05 AM   #10 
  - The sight of that bunch of sanctimonious white men  Sparkly   Dec-17-04 11:07 AM   #11 
  - Me too. Not my edit though. It was posted on DU and I just saved it. n/t  snippy   Dec-17-04 11:12 AM   #15 
  - D&X, D&E  sandnsea   Dec-17-04 11:36 AM   #26 
  - If they are ALREADY illegal... why sacrifice political capital  MrUnderhill   Dec-17-04 11:11 AM   #13 
  - To keep them from eroding the laws any further.  Sparkly   Dec-17-04 11:15 AM   #19 
  - That's how THEY lose these arguments.  MrUnderhill   Dec-17-04 11:23 AM   #21 
     - Good Post  Nederland   Dec-17-04 01:56 PM   #56 
        - Well.... all I can say is...  MrUnderhill   Dec-17-04 01:59 PM   #58 
  - Answer  Nederland   Dec-17-04 11:16 AM   #20 
  - This 'both sides' argument is not only inaccurate,  gumby   Dec-17-04 12:07 PM   #28 
     - Disagree  Nederland   Dec-17-04 12:20 PM   #29 
        - It is the pro lifers who blow up clinics...  Solon   Dec-17-04 12:34 PM   #30 
        - You are correct  Nederland   Dec-17-04 01:08 PM   #40 
           - I agree that most people are  Yupster   Dec-17-04 05:20 PM   #84 
        - The 1992 Casey canard?  gumby   Dec-17-04 12:44 PM   #35 
           - No  Nederland   Dec-17-04 01:04 PM   #39 
              - Um...probably because the Democratic party is pro-choice.  janx   Dec-17-04 01:14 PM   #45 
              - Never said it was a bad thing  Nederland   Dec-17-04 01:17 PM   #47 
                 - You're right. On that issue, they don't. Thank God. n/t  janx   Dec-17-04 01:23 PM   #50 
                    - Thanks for pointing that out. Dems don't pander on this issue  Mandate My Ass   Dec-17-04 03:17 PM   #82 
              - Worse than lipstick on a Pig.  gumby   Dec-17-04 02:27 PM   #68 
                 - Seemed to work  Nederland   Dec-17-04 02:46 PM   #74 
                    - Who's this "we" of which you speak?  Crowdance   Dec-20-04 06:45 AM   #97 
  - Not already illegal, in all states, at least  rfkrfk   Dec-18-04 08:01 AM   #91 
  - "This bill will chill the practice of medicine...."  madfloridian   Dec-17-04 11:13 AM   #16 
  - More Facts  Nederland   Dec-17-04 11:14 AM   #18 
  - The problem is that these laws are so vague in many cases...  Solon   Dec-17-04 11:30 AM   #23 
  - Yes  Nederland   Dec-17-04 01:15 PM   #46 
  - Misinterpretation  sandnsea   Dec-17-04 11:41 AM   #27 
  - Misinterpretation  Nederland   Dec-17-04 12:37 PM   #32 
  - Motivation?  janx   Dec-17-04 12:42 PM   #34 
  - Yes, motivation  Nederland   Dec-17-04 01:09 PM   #41 
  - So she should just die?  sandnsea   Dec-17-04 12:45 PM   #36 
  - Never suggested that (nt)  Nederland   Dec-17-04 01:09 PM   #43 
     - Yes you did  sandnsea   Dec-17-04 01:17 PM   #48 
        - Where exactly did I say that?  Nederland   Dec-17-04 01:21 PM   #49 
           - Don't pretend  sandnsea   Dec-17-04 02:55 PM   #79 
  - Actually many pro lifers believe both are true in some cases...  Solon   Dec-17-04 12:49 PM   #37 
  - People who want to ban abortions think they are all murder.  Bridget Burke   Dec-17-04 12:53 PM   #38 
     - True  Nederland   Dec-17-04 01:11 PM   #44 
  - That's an exaggeration  MrUnderhill   Dec-17-04 01:31 PM   #51 
     - You're wrong  sandnsea   Dec-17-04 02:51 PM   #76 
     - Well, it wouldn't be the first time...  MrUnderhill   Dec-17-04 03:35 PM   #83 
        - The article did  sandnsea   Dec-18-04 12:00 AM   #87 
        - hydrocefali...... the vast majority of reasons for late term abortions  Cheswick2.0   Dec-18-04 08:25 AM   #94 
     - hands out citation for making stuff up as per section 2348 of plan 9 NT  Baconfoot   Dec-18-04 02:46 AM   #88 
     - Pregnancy is riskier to women's health than abortion. nt  July   Dec-20-04 07:13 AM   #98 
  - Abortion on demand?  Cheswick2.0   Dec-18-04 08:18 AM   #93 
  - That's a Good Site  ribofunk   Dec-17-04 11:27 AM   #22 
  - This is bullshit  mrgorth   Dec-17-04 02:25 PM   #67 
     - Look at What They Say on That Link  ribofunk   Dec-17-04 02:45 PM   #72 
  - Give them an inch...  countryjake   Dec-17-04 11:32 AM   #25 
  - Ridiculous  Nederland   Dec-17-04 01:58 PM   #57 
     - Fighting for women's liberation...  countryjake   Dec-18-04 07:23 AM   #89 
  - the best source to use is the Alan Guttmacher Institute..  RUDUing2   Dec-17-04 01:09 PM   #42 
  - I am not a Catholic, but it's my understanding  diplomats   Dec-17-04 01:47 PM   #54 
     - I am catholic and they do (and they don't)  RUDUing2   Dec-17-04 02:11 PM   #61 
  - an explanation why the federal ban is problematic  onenote   Dec-17-04 01:45 PM   #53 
  - Question for All  Nederland   Dec-17-04 01:48 PM   #55 
  - No, I wasn't in favor of the bill.  Bridget Burke   Dec-17-04 02:05 PM   #59 
  - Its not a question of abandoning issues  Nederland   Dec-17-04 02:18 PM   #63 
  - here's an answer  onenote   Dec-17-04 02:06 PM   #60 
  - Not sure I agree  Nederland   Dec-17-04 02:19 PM   #64 
     - I hope it will  onenote   Dec-17-04 02:44 PM   #71 
  - nope, because of the same reason Clinto vetoed this didn't  RUDUing2   Dec-17-04 02:13 PM   #62 
  - I think the difficulty with that distinction is  MrUnderhill   Dec-17-04 02:21 PM   #65 
  - as a woman I think mental health is just as important as physical health  RUDUing2   Dec-17-04 02:39 PM   #69 
  - I can respect that. But understand  MrUnderhill   Dec-17-04 02:43 PM   #70 
  - But if depression is included as health, then  Yupster   Dec-17-04 05:28 PM   #85 
  - Why would you want to limit it to just physical health?  peacebird   Dec-17-04 02:45 PM   #73 
  - Fair enough  Nederland   Dec-17-04 02:23 PM   #66 
     - Google "anencephaly"  Bridget Burke   Dec-17-04 02:47 PM   #75 
     - the religious right don't want to trust women with a choice  peacebird   Dec-17-04 02:52 PM   #77 
     - Done  Nederland   Dec-17-04 03:01 PM   #80 
        - Anencephaly is lack of a brain.  Bridget Burke   Dec-20-04 08:17 AM   #100 
     - a political price only if we let the other side define the issue  onenote   Dec-17-04 02:54 PM   #78 
     - I agree that the issue is difficult to define  Nederland   Dec-17-04 03:04 PM   #81 
     - Then the "public" needs to be properly informed.  LynnTheDem   Dec-18-04 07:50 AM   #90 
     - Like some other medical issues, it IS difficult.  July   Dec-20-04 07:22 AM   #99 
     - When women have abortions for health reasons in late term  Cheswick2.0   Dec-18-04 08:14 AM   #92 
  - women's health...... n/t  Cheswick2.0   Dec-18-04 08:30 AM   #95 
  - "Late-Term Abortions" are a myth.  talk hard   Dec-20-04 02:14 AM   #96 

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators

Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC